Pegasus comparisons sought

[Ted Wagner]

As I start to collect notes on what kind of glider I'm going to purchase later this year, and knowing I likely won't be able to test drive the models I'm most interested in, I'd like to get some comparisons to what I do have access to.

Last weekend I started flying a Pegasus 101A, and it looks like I'll be spending most of the next few months on this glider and a Grob 102.

I'm delighted with the limited time I've spent on the Pegasus so far, but a few quick observations are:
a.. It doesn't seem to have much air brake range ... it would make me nervous on land-outs.
b.. The gear is sometimes tough to retract and lower. I'm fairly strong for my weight (160lbs), but it took some adrenaline to get the gear down after a two hour flight in cold weather. Probably peculiar to this particular glider. Still, getting the gear down is something I'd like to get done after a long flight with a cramp in the arm and strength to spare.
c.. I can't see the tow plane very well on tow. I can't see the rope at all when I put the wheels on the horizon. I don't know if this is normal or not on this kind of glider, but me, I like to see the rope. (I'm 5'11", and if I put a seat cushion under my arse, my cranium scraps the canopy.)
d.. I can't reach the canopy to close it after I'm strapped in. I have to delay attaching the shoulder straps until after the canopy is closed, or ask the line boy to hand me my lid.
e.. I can't check the instruments with the canopy open.
f.. The above two points wouldn't be a big deal, but I fly in Arizona, and closing the canopy is something you sneak in right about the time you waggle the rudder to the tow pilot. (Okay. You know what I mean.)
g.. The feet are close together on the rudder pedals, but the knees are separated by the instrument panel. After sitting a while, I feel a bit, well, bow-legged.
h.. Wheel brake on the stick. Hmmm. I'm sure there's a reason for that.
i.. The battery is not very accessable.
I'd like to know how common these observations are in the most popular birds (Discus 2x, AS-xxx, 304Cx, etc). The most important things to me are landoutability, being able to sit comfortably for hours at a time, and assembly. If anyone has experince with the Pegasus and other excellent gliders, I'd appreciate your own comments.

-ted

[Ted Wagner]

I'd like to know how common these observations are in the most popular birds (Discus 2x, AS-xxx, 304Cx, etc).
I should have been more specific than "popular birds": 15-meter, 35:1 or better, ballast tanks, with or without flaps, hold the mayo.

-tw

[Marc Ramsey]

Ted Wagner wrote:
> * It doesn't seem to have much air brake range ... it would make me
> nervous on land-outs.

The Pegasus is about average for a standard class ship in this regard.
Speed control is key, pick an appropriate approach speed and nail it,
don't come in hot or you'll end up going a bit farther than you want.
Get comfortable with slipping near the ground, it's the best way to burn
off excess energy and height on the turn from base to final. If you
have trouble seeing over the nose, a slipping turn to final will also
give you a better view of the runway.

> * The gear is sometimes tough to retract and lower. I'm fairly
> strong for my weight (160lbs), but it took some adrenaline to get
> the gear down after a two hour flight in cold weather.
> Probably peculiar to this particular glider. Still, getting the
> gear down is something I'd like to get done after a long flight
> with a cramp in the arm and strength to spare.

It shouldn't be *that* hard, perhaps this one is in need of (better)
lubrication.

> * I can't see the tow plane very well on tow. I can't see the rope
> at all when I put the wheels on the horizon. I don't know if this
> is normal or not on this kind of glider, but me, I like to see the
> rope. (I'm 5'11", and if I put a seat cushion under my arse, my
> cranium scraps the canopy.)

You don't need to be directly behind the towplane, moving a bit to one
side or the other will let you see it and the rope.

> * I can't reach the canopy to close it after I'm strapped in. I have
> to delay attaching the shoulder straps until after the canopy is
> closed, or ask the line boy to hand me my lid.

A rope or strap attached to a secure point on the instrument pod or
canopy lift frame will solve that problem.

> * I can't check the instruments with the canopy open.

Hold the canopy half way open with one elbow on the edge of the
fuselage, use the other to tweak the instruments.

> * The above two points wouldn't be a big deal, but I fly in Arizona,
> and closing the canopy is something you sneak in right about the
> time you waggle the rudder to the tow pilot. (Okay. You know what
> I mean.)

Prop it open with your hand, it's more secure that way in the event of a
gust of wind or propwash. When you're ready, lower it the rest of the way.

> * The feet are close together on the rudder pedals, but the knees
> are separated by the instrument panel. After sitting a while, I
> feel a bit, well, bow-legged.

Haven't you noticed how all glider pilots are bow-legged, even if they
weren't born that way? 8^)

> * Wheel brake on the stick. Hmmm. I'm sure there's a reason for that.

After you have some experience with brake on stick, brake at end of
divebrake travel, and heel brakes, you'll probably find that the first
gives you a bit better control over your braking (assuming the brakes
actually work).

> * The battery is not very accessable.

Batteries are sometimes in odd places for CG reasons, or to simply allow
a larger one than can be installed in the normal position.

> I'd like to know how common these observations are in the most popular
> birds (Discus 2x, AS-xxx, 304Cx, etc). The most important things to me
> are landoutability, being able to sit comfortably for hours at a time,
> and assembly. If anyone has experince with the Pegasus and other
> excellent gliders, I'd appreciate your own comments.

All gliders are compromises to some extent or another. If landouts are
a big concern, you'll probably be happier with a flapped glider,
particularly those with 40+ degree landing position, or trailing edge
flap/divebrakes. Comfort will vary according to your particular
physique, the SSA convention is a good opportunity to try on various
gliders, and see what works for you. Your choice of parachute can also
make a big difference, chair-style chutes work better in older designs,
whereas the newer ones mostly favor mini-backpack chutes.

Marc

[Martin Gregorie]

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 21:05:27 -0800, "Ted Wagner"
> wrote:

>As I start to collect notes on what kind of glider I'm going to purchase later this year, and knowing I likely won't be able to test drive the models I'm most interested in, I'd like to get some comparisons to what I do have access to.
>
>Last weekend I started flying a Pegasus 101A, and it looks like I'll be spending most of the next few months on this glider and a Grob 102.
>
>I'm delighted with the limited time I've spent on the Pegasus so far, but a few quick observations are:
> a.. It doesn't seem to have much air brake range ... it would make me nervous on land-outs.
>
As Marc says, it has enough brake but you do need to be able to nail
the speed. I can hit my spot in a Pegasus without much problem. A
Discus has more brake, and a DG-300 has less. Libelles have barely
adequate brakes, but on my one flight in one I didn't find it to be a
problem.

> b.. The gear is sometimes tough to retract and lower. I'm fairly strong for my weight (160lbs), but it took some adrenaline to get the gear down after a two hour flight in cold weather. Probably peculiar to this particular glider. Still, getting the gear down is something I'd like to get done after a long flight with a cramp in the arm and strength to spare.
>
I've flown two Pegases - the 101A at Williams and our club Pegase 90.
Both have pretty effortless gear handling.

I think the gear in that glider needs looking at and probably some
TLC. In my experience a Discus needs more of a heave to get the gear
up *and* you get to fly left-handed while raising or lowering it.

> c.. I can't see the tow plane very well on tow. I can't see the rope at all when I put the wheels on the horizon. I don't know if this is normal or not on this kind of glider, but me, I like to see the rope. (I'm 5'11", and if I put a seat cushion under my arse, my cranium scraps the canopy.)
>
I've never noticed that. With the tug wheels at the same level, i.e.
I'm sitting just above the tug's wake, I can see most of the rope and
admire the catenary curve between me and the tug. This applies to both
our Rallye and Pawnee.

I'm 5'10" and about 180 with a chute. I prefer the backpack type for
comfort in almost everything I've flown and generally find I dislike
the seat type and the older chutes with stiff backrest.

Experiment with the seat position. I'm happiest in the Pegase with the
seat in the second to rear position. Its comfortable for me and I can
easily see the tips of the tailplane. This is not possible from the
rearmost seat position or nearly as easy from a Discus because the
rear of the canopy is a little wider. Rear view is a win for the
Libelle with its close fitting canopy that extends well back behind
the seat position.

> d.. I can't reach the canopy to close it after I'm strapped in. I have to delay attaching the shoulder straps until after the canopy is closed, or ask the line boy to hand me my lid.

As Marc said, you need a string. Both the Pegases I've flown had a
nylon cord tied to the canopy near the right side release and a ring
(slice of plastic hose pipe) on the bottom. The cord is about 18" (450
mm) long. This lets you haul the canopy down to where you can grab the
frame. The ASW-19 and ASW-20 are almost identical. The problem is
that, if a front opening canopy doesn't open too far to be easily
grabbed it will probably get in the way when getting in and out, cf.
the PW-5 and Mosquito.

The Discus, of course, doesn't have this problem because it uses a
rather fragile side hinge. Nor does the Libelle, but you can't put its
canopy on without assistance because it's a lift-off type.

> e.. I can't check the instruments with the canopy open.
>
Do as Marc said. That works for me too. Do use your arm to prop the
canopy part open. If you don't positively support it then sooner or
later it will try to chop your arm off.

The ASW-20 is the same: ASW-19 and Standard Cirrus have a fixed panel
though some ASW-19s have been modified to use a hinged panel. I prefer
the latter: its much easier to get in and out with the panel hinged up
out of the way.

> g.. The feet are close together on the rudder pedals, but the knees are separated by the instrument panel. After sitting a while, I feel a bit, well, bow-legged.
>
I've never noticed problems in the Pegase, but I can't fly a Discus
for more than two hours without my knees complaining when I get out:
the console is wider than in the Pegase/ASW-90 and the pedals seem
even closer together as well as locking your feet upright.

Are you putting the pedals far enough forward? I fly the Pegase with
my legs flat on the floor and work the rudder with ankle movement
only. I find this very comfortable and have no aches and pains at all
after a 5+ hour flight. Its more comfortable than my car.

> h.. Wheel brake on the stick. Hmmm. I'm sure there's a reason for that.
>
No comment. The Discus and Libelle have this too, but both the Pegases
I've flown were modified to apply the wheel brake at full air brake
from the airbrake lever.

> i.. The battery is not very accessable.
>
Again, as Marc says, this varies. Our club Pegase has two 7 aH
batteries mounted, long axis sideways, immediately in front of the
main spar. They are as accessible as any glider battery I've changed
but do need to be removed for easy access to the wing pin lock. OTOH
you also need to take them out for charging when you rig or de-rig.

>I'd like to know how common these observations are in the most popular birds (Discus 2x, AS-xxx, 304Cx, etc). The most important things to me are landoutability, being able to sit comfortably for hours at a time, and assembly. If anyone has experince with the Pegasus and other excellent gliders, I'd appreciate your own comments.
>
Personally I like the Pegase a lot. Demerits are minimal belly
clearance, which can be a problem in land-outs, but this also applies
to the ASW-19 and 20 (except the 20c which has more clearance). All
three gliders have fairly heavy wings which could be a rigging issue.
If you're thinking of getting a Pegase, the 90 is preferable. Its more
recent and has full self-coupling controls which is worth a bob or two
to me but ymmv. I also prefer two-pin rigging systems to the
Schlemp-Hirth single pin because you don't have the problem of the
second wing pushing the first out, but many folks would disagree.

If you like the way the Pegase flies you'll probably also like the
ASW-19 and the Libelle.

I've also had a single flight in a DG-300. Loads of ground clearance,
very comfortable and pleasant to fly and excellent visibility, but it
has relatively weak brakes compared with the Pegase and isn't as fast
(best glide is 48 kts compared with 55kts).

My current order of preference is ASW-19/Pegase, ASW-20 (though I
haven't flown one), Libelle, DG-300, Discus.

HTH
Martin

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

[Kirk Stant]

"Ted Wagner" > wrote in message >...
> I'd like to know how common these observations are in the most popular
> birds (Discus 2x, AS-xxx, 304Cx, etc).
> I should have been more specific than "popular birds": 15-meter, 35:1 or
> better, ballast tanks, with or without flaps, hold the mayo.

Ted,

The ASA is setting up an "annual party" at Turf on the weekend of
21-22 Feb, if you stop by you will be able to get a close look at (and
talk to owners, sit in, etc.) a bunch of gliders. Current signup
includes an LS6, Std Cirrus, Ventus B, ASW-27B, ASW-28, ASW-19B,
Pegasus 101A, 304CZ, Grob-102 (ASA's) and Pik-20, with more to follow
(LS3, LS4, SZD-55, SZD-48, Discus, Discus 2, Ventus 2 are all local
ships that are possible shows).

Stop by, if nothing else it's fun to look at all the glass (and
cockpit set-ups!) and see what difference a nice trailer makes.

Kirk
LS6 "66"

[Mark James Boyd]

>Ted Wagner wrote:
>> * It doesn't seem to have much air brake range ... it would make me
>> nervous on land-outs.
>
>The Pegasus is about average for a standard class ship in this regard.

The PW-5 has such effective airbrakes when fully deployed, I've
never landed with them full out. I suspect there is some design
compromise between very effective (and therefore a hazard
if they deploy early on takeoff), or less effective
(and harder to control glideslope). I've read about
airbrake safety catches that won't allow extension past a
certain point (minimal) without deliberately releasing
them. This avoids the accidental deployment and PIO
if one fails to lock them for takeoff (this happened to
a PW-5 causing $4000 in tail repair).

These safeties seem like an excellent idea, although I've
never flown a ship with them.

[tango4]

> I've read about
> airbrake safety catches that won't allow extension past a
> certain point (minimal) without deliberately releasing
> them.

Its called a Pigott hook. Look over the DG website at
http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/ then 'innovations' and 'Pigott-hook'.

Invented by 'The most famous glider pilot in the English speaking world' (
note: 'English speaking world' not American speaking world)

:-)

Ian

[E. A. Grens]

Kirk -

This is an excellent suggestion, in that many of these aircraft, including
the Pegase, have problems accommodating larger than average pilots (say,
over 75 in and 225 lbs). It is important to look for adequate cockpit size.

Ed Grens

Kirk Stant > wrote in message
om...
> "Ted Wagner" > wrote in message
>...
> > I'd like to know how common these observations are in the most popular
> > birds (Discus 2x, AS-xxx, 304Cx, etc).
> > I should have been more specific than "popular birds": 15-meter, 35:1 or
> > better, ballast tanks, with or without flaps, hold the mayo.
>
> Ted,
>
> The ASA is setting up an "annual party" at Turf on the weekend of
> 21-22 Feb, if you stop by you will be able to get a close look at (and
> talk to owners, sit in, etc.) a bunch of gliders. Current signup
> includes an LS6, Std Cirrus, Ventus B, ASW-27B, ASW-28, ASW-19B,
> Pegasus 101A, 304CZ, Grob-102 (ASA's) and Pik-20, with more to follow
> (LS3, LS4, SZD-55, SZD-48, Discus, Discus 2, Ventus 2 are all local
> ships that are possible shows).
>
> Stop by, if nothing else it's fun to look at all the glass (and
> cockpit set-ups!) and see what difference a nice trailer makes.
>
> Kirk
> LS6 "66"

[F1y1n]

Uh, I'll speak 'American', you bow to the queen. I'll take that deal
any day thank you.

[Steve Bralla]

Guess who has a new e-mail address?

(F1y1n) writes:

>
>Uh, I'll speak 'American', you bow to the queen. I'll take that deal
>any day thank you.
>
>


"Janusz Kesik" > wrote in message
>...
> Maybe it's time to switch to SZD Diana, Puchacz, or SZD-55 at least as
> long as the Poland isn't in the Euro zone?
> Just count it...
>
> Regards,

Mr. Kesik,
would you please shut up about your useless Polish gliders? Not one
worthwile glider has ever come out of Poland, with your 'stars' PW-5
and Junior belonging to the 'run, do not walk away from' category.
Nobody cares.
Thank you.