View Full Version : Power Flarm with ADS-B out?
Dave Benjamin
May 9th 17, 02:51 AM
Is anyone aware of any near term plans for Power Flarm with an ADS-B out solution?
I fly airspace fairly congested with light GA aircraft, and would really like that powered traffic to be able to see me as well as me seeing them.
With most US powered aircraft being required to have ADS-B in 2020, addition of ADS-B out seems a logical evolution for Power Flarm.
On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 8:51:36 PM UTC-5, Dave Benjamin wrote:
> Is anyone aware of any near term plans for Power Flarm with an ADS-B out solution?
>
> I fly airspace fairly congested with light GA aircraft, and would really like that powered traffic to be able to see me as well as me seeing them.
>
> With most US powered aircraft being required to have ADS-B in 2020, addition of ADS-B out seems a logical evolution for Power Flarm.
ADS-B out only works with a suitable Mode S transponder and a valid GPS source. PFlarm will never be a platform for doing that.
George Haeh
May 11th 17, 11:58 PM
Meanwhile on the other side of the ocean, EASA is ahead of FAA.
http://www.air-
avionics.com/air/index.php/en/products/collision-avoidance/trx-
1500-the-flexible-collision-avoidance-system
>
C-FFKQ (42)
May 12th 17, 01:24 AM
On Thursday, 11 May 2017 19:00:09 UTC-4, George Haeh wrote:
> Meanwhile on the other side of the ocean, EASA is ahead of FAA.
>
> http://www.air-
> avionics.com/air/index.php/en/products/collision-avoidance/trx-
> 1500-the-flexible-collision-avoidance-system
> >
Sorry, George...
By my reading, this device is like PowerFlarm: it has Flarm, PCAS and ADSB-IN.
There does not appear to be ADSB-OUT.
Darryl Ramm
May 12th 17, 04:07 AM
On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 6:51:36 PM UTC-7, Dave Benjamin wrote:
> Is anyone aware of any near term plans for Power Flarm with an ADS-B out solution?
>
> I fly airspace fairly congested with light GA aircraft, and would really like that powered traffic to be able to see me as well as me seeing them.
>
> With most US powered aircraft being required to have ADS-B in 2020, addition of ADS-B out seems a logical evolution for Power Flarm.
There has been a lots of stuff discussed on r.a.s in the past about using PowerFLARM with 1090ES Out system from other vendors. many existing threads on the issues involved, issues with certified GPS costs, how TABS/TSO-C199 might change that (but can't today in certified aircraft etc.). And lots of past discussion about why the GPS unit inside a PowerFLARM can't be used for ADS-B Out to meet 2020 requirements and also does not meet TABS requirements, e.g. is not TSO-C199 approved or claimed to "meet requirements of"... and so on... I'm not going to rehash all that again. If you want specific advice you need to tell us what type of glider and if it's certified or experimental.
If the question is should FLARM develop a Mode S/1090ES Out product? That seems like an illogical market for FLARM to pursue--FLARM is a small design company, not a certified avionics manufacturer. They very smarty pioneered great technology using unregulated spectrum. They have nothing technically to add to pure ADS-B Out than any other vendor, many of who are actually set up to be able to manufacture certified products. And their partner manufacturer AirAvionics for example already sell 1090ES Out equipment in Europe. FLARM is unlikely to compete with their major partners like that. If you want to see AirAvionic sell their existing 1090ES Out solution in the USA you should check with them. But already equivalent or lower-cost 1090ES Out solutions exist in the USA market from vendors with significant presence here already.
For glider uses in the USA who want ADS-B Out the leading vendors you should be looking at is Trig at least for the Mode-S 1090ES out part... and then follow their advice on the GPS source. They are here today with products and support. For certified aircraft you are still screwed on GPS source costs, who knows, maybe one day there will be light at the end of the tunnel with non-TSO GPS sources for ADS-B Out even in certified aircraft.
PowerFLARM has no market in the power aircraft market in the USA, the lack of support for ADS-R and TIS-B reception makes PowerFLARM a non-starter. If the USA GA market was important to them they would have addressed that. The benefit of the wonderful FLARM technology overweighs that limitations to glider users, it won't for typical power aircraft users.
Darryl Ramm
May 12th 17, 04:22 AM
On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 6:51:36 PM UTC-7, Dave Benjamin wrote:
> Is anyone aware of any near term plans for Power Flarm with an ADS-B out solution?
>
> I fly airspace fairly congested with light GA aircraft, and would really like that powered traffic to be able to see me as well as me seeing them.
>
> With most US powered aircraft being required to have ADS-B in 2020, addition of ADS-B out seems a logical evolution for Power Flarm.
Where do you fly? The Minden/Reno area? Do you have a transponder today?
> Where do you fly? The Minden/Reno area? Do you have a transponder today?
Thanks for the thoughtful response. Yes, certified. Yes, Minden. Yes , transponder.
Heavy tin is not the issue. The concern is the lighter GA tin that is not in contact with ATC.
Darryl Ramm
May 12th 17, 09:53 AM
On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 9:06:59 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > Where do you fly? The Minden/Reno area? Do you have a transponder today?
>
> Thanks for the thoughtful response. Yes, certified. Yes, Minden. Yes , transponder.
>
> Heavy tin is not the issue. The concern is the lighter GA tin that is not in contact with ATC.
First thanks for equipping with a transponder in the Reno area.
Sorry I should have also asked what transponder you have. If you have say a Trig TT-22 then the remaining cost is largely the suitable GPS receiver (e..g. the Trig TN70 for ~$2k plus install costs).
If you voluntarily install ADS-B out in your *certified* glider you are required to meet the performance requirements of the 2020 Mandate which in practice today means a TSO-C145c GPS like the TN70. And just do whatever the transponder manufacturer says and ideally follow an existing STC documentation as closely as possible.
But its not clear how useful this will actually be for different usage scenarios. There are just so many unknowns here. You might want to do some informal survey of what ADS-B Out and In capabilities local GA aircraft have and try to get a feel for local ADS-R and TIS-B coverage.
Are the GA aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out? (so they have a chance of being a ADS-R and TIS-B client) and are they equipped with ADS-B In and on what link layers? I assume in the high desert/mountainous areas of Nevada many will be equipping with ADS-B Out, and hopefully mostly on 1090ES Out... but it would be intersting to know.
And hopefully GA users have gotten the message and are only buying dual link receivers.
If you are within ADS-B and SSR coverage then other aircraft properly equipped with ADS-B Out *and* ADS-B In will see your transponder equipped glider via TIS-B. Not so useful for close-flying gliders but more useful for GA aircraft to see gliders with. Likely not useful say close to the pattern area at Minden airport because the Reno located SSR radar can't see low down the valley. (And TIS-B requires the ADS-B Out system in the client aircraft to be properly set up to transmit the correct capability codes that describe the aircraft's ADS-B In capabilities. So remind GA pilots using portable ADS-B In systems to check if their ADS-B Out system is properly configured to advertise their correct ADS-B In capability).
If within SSR coverage and the GA aircraft is communicating with ATC then that that helps avoid you with just a transponder.
If you have 1090ES Out and the GA aircraft has a 1090ES or dual-link ADS-B receiver they'll see you directly.
If you have 1090ES Out and the GA aircraft has a UAT receiver and no ADS-B Out then it won't reliably see you. It may see ADS-R messages about your aircraft transmitted for other client aircraft. A potentially confusing/dangerous situation.
If you have 1090ES Out and the GA aircraft has properly configured ADS-B Out (UAT or 1090ES) and UAT-In and is within ADS-B ground coverage then it will see your aircraft via ADS-R.
So maybe lots of things to look at with the GA pilots in the area. With all that complexity and costs and hassles (including installation costs and increased power-consumption) it may be that the marginal gain of installing ADS-B Out is not worth it. OTOH I would not be flying in that area at all without a transponder for the airlines and fast jets and general help it gives via ATC.
There may be some hope about STC based approval for non-TSO GPS sources for ADS-B Out install in certified aircraft, if that happened then maybe the GPS part of the cost of an install might go from the current ~$2k to say ~$500 or so. You'll still have some install costs and hassle of finding an A&P who know what they are doing to do this properly. So while it will be nicer for component costs to keep falling, I also kinda feel that if somebody *really* wants ADS-B Out in a glider today then they should probably not hold out hoping for further large decreases in cost. Just write that check and get going. And as more folks do that we should all get a better feel on real world usefulness. For non-certified gliders they can already use lower-cost GPS sources (like the Trig TN-72). This differential costs between installation in certified and non-certified gliders is just frustratingly stupid bureaucracy helping getting in the way of ADS-B adoption.
ADSB-out, ADSB-in, certified, uncertified, experimental, GA, gliders, properly equipped, portable, client, codes, mode C, TSO, TSO-C145c, TN70, TN72, ADS-R, TIS-B, UAT, 1090ES, SSR areas, dual-link..... Thank you for your help, FAA.
Darryl Ramm
May 13th 17, 07:58 PM
Pretty good summary of the problem :-(
On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 1:54:02 AM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 9:06:59 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > Where do you fly? The Minden/Reno area? Do you have a transponder today?
> >
> > Thanks for the thoughtful response. Yes, certified. Yes, Minden. Yes , transponder.
> >
> > Heavy tin is not the issue. The concern is the lighter GA tin that is not in contact with ATC.
>
> First thanks for equipping with a transponder in the Reno area.
>
> Sorry I should have also asked what transponder you have. If you have say a Trig TT-22 then the remaining cost is largely the suitable GPS receiver (e.g. the Trig TN70 for ~$2k plus install costs).
>
> If you voluntarily install ADS-B out in your *certified* glider you are required to meet the performance requirements of the 2020 Mandate which in practice today means a TSO-C145c GPS like the TN70. And just do whatever the transponder manufacturer says and ideally follow an existing STC documentation as closely as possible.
>
> But its not clear how useful this will actually be for different usage scenarios. There are just so many unknowns here. You might want to do some informal survey of what ADS-B Out and In capabilities local GA aircraft have and try to get a feel for local ADS-R and TIS-B coverage.
>
> Are the GA aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out? (so they have a chance of being a ADS-R and TIS-B client) and are they equipped with ADS-B In and on what link layers? I assume in the high desert/mountainous areas of Nevada many will be equipping with ADS-B Out, and hopefully mostly on 1090ES Out... but it would be intersting to know.
>
> And hopefully GA users have gotten the message and are only buying dual link receivers.
>
> If you are within ADS-B and SSR coverage then other aircraft properly equipped with ADS-B Out *and* ADS-B In will see your transponder equipped glider via TIS-B. Not so useful for close-flying gliders but more useful for GA aircraft to see gliders with. Likely not useful say close to the pattern area at Minden airport because the Reno located SSR radar can't see low down the valley. (And TIS-B requires the ADS-B Out system in the client aircraft to be properly set up to transmit the correct capability codes that describe the aircraft's ADS-B In capabilities. So remind GA pilots using portable ADS-B In systems to check if their ADS-B Out system is properly configured to advertise their correct ADS-B In capability).
>
> If within SSR coverage and the GA aircraft is communicating with ATC then that that helps avoid you with just a transponder.
>
> If you have 1090ES Out and the GA aircraft has a 1090ES or dual-link ADS-B receiver they'll see you directly.
>
> If you have 1090ES Out and the GA aircraft has a UAT receiver and no ADS-B Out then it won't reliably see you. It may see ADS-R messages about your aircraft transmitted for other client aircraft. A potentially confusing/dangerous situation.
>
> If you have 1090ES Out and the GA aircraft has properly configured ADS-B Out (UAT or 1090ES) and UAT-In and is within ADS-B ground coverage then it will see your aircraft via ADS-R.
>
> So maybe lots of things to look at with the GA pilots in the area. With all that complexity and costs and hassles (including installation costs and increased power-consumption) it may be that the marginal gain of installing ADS-B Out is not worth it. OTOH I would not be flying in that area at all without a transponder for the airlines and fast jets and general help it gives via ATC.
>
> There may be some hope about STC based approval for non-TSO GPS sources for ADS-B Out install in certified aircraft, if that happened then maybe the GPS part of the cost of an install might go from the current ~$2k to say ~$500 or so. You'll still have some install costs and hassle of finding an A&P who know what they are doing to do this properly. So while it will be nicer for component costs to keep falling, I also kinda feel that if somebody *really* wants ADS-B Out in a glider today then they should probably not hold out hoping for further large decreases in cost. Just write that check and get going. And as more folks do that we should all get a better feel on real world usefulness. For non-certified gliders they can already use lower-cost GPS sources (like the Trig TN-72). This differential costs between installation in certified and non-certified gliders is just frustratingly stupid bureaucracy helping getting in the way of ADS-B adoption.
As of 1/31/17 there are only 33,099 aircraft equipped with ADS-B, and only 27,431 are good installs. Installs are happening at the rate of less than 1,500 per month. At this rate only about 46,000 aircraft will be equipped with ADS-B by the 1/1/2020 deadline. This means the vast majority of the general aviation fleet will not be equipped. If you are thinking about installing ADS-B to avoid mid-airs with GA aircraft you will be sadly disappointed.
Tom
On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 5:47:36 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 1:54:02 AM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 9:06:59 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > > Where do you fly? The Minden/Reno area? Do you have a transponder today?
> > >
> > > Thanks for the thoughtful response. Yes, certified. Yes, Minden. Yes , transponder.
> > >
> > > Heavy tin is not the issue. The concern is the lighter GA tin that is not in contact with ATC.
> >
> > First thanks for equipping with a transponder in the Reno area.
> >
> > Sorry I should have also asked what transponder you have. If you have say a Trig TT-22 then the remaining cost is largely the suitable GPS receiver (e.g. the Trig TN70 for ~$2k plus install costs).
> >
> > If you voluntarily install ADS-B out in your *certified* glider you are required to meet the performance requirements of the 2020 Mandate which in practice today means a TSO-C145c GPS like the TN70. And just do whatever the transponder manufacturer says and ideally follow an existing STC documentation as closely as possible.
> >
> > But its not clear how useful this will actually be for different usage scenarios. There are just so many unknowns here. You might want to do some informal survey of what ADS-B Out and In capabilities local GA aircraft have and try to get a feel for local ADS-R and TIS-B coverage.
> >
> > Are the GA aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out? (so they have a chance of being a ADS-R and TIS-B client) and are they equipped with ADS-B In and on what link layers? I assume in the high desert/mountainous areas of Nevada many will be equipping with ADS-B Out, and hopefully mostly on 1090ES Out... but it would be intersting to know.
> >
> > And hopefully GA users have gotten the message and are only buying dual link receivers.
> >
> > If you are within ADS-B and SSR coverage then other aircraft properly equipped with ADS-B Out *and* ADS-B In will see your transponder equipped glider via TIS-B. Not so useful for close-flying gliders but more useful for GA aircraft to see gliders with. Likely not useful say close to the pattern area at Minden airport because the Reno located SSR radar can't see low down the valley. (And TIS-B requires the ADS-B Out system in the client aircraft to be properly set up to transmit the correct capability codes that describe the aircraft's ADS-B In capabilities. So remind GA pilots using portable ADS-B In systems to check if their ADS-B Out system is properly configured to advertise their correct ADS-B In capability).
> >
> > If within SSR coverage and the GA aircraft is communicating with ATC then that that helps avoid you with just a transponder.
> >
> > If you have 1090ES Out and the GA aircraft has a 1090ES or dual-link ADS-B receiver they'll see you directly.
> >
> > If you have 1090ES Out and the GA aircraft has a UAT receiver and no ADS-B Out then it won't reliably see you. It may see ADS-R messages about your aircraft transmitted for other client aircraft. A potentially confusing/dangerous situation.
> >
> > If you have 1090ES Out and the GA aircraft has properly configured ADS-B Out (UAT or 1090ES) and UAT-In and is within ADS-B ground coverage then it will see your aircraft via ADS-R.
> >
> > So maybe lots of things to look at with the GA pilots in the area. With all that complexity and costs and hassles (including installation costs and increased power-consumption) it may be that the marginal gain of installing ADS-B Out is not worth it. OTOH I would not be flying in that area at all without a transponder for the airlines and fast jets and general help it gives via ATC.
> >
> > There may be some hope about STC based approval for non-TSO GPS sources for ADS-B Out install in certified aircraft, if that happened then maybe the GPS part of the cost of an install might go from the current ~$2k to say ~$500 or so. You'll still have some install costs and hassle of finding an A&P who know what they are doing to do this properly. So while it will be nicer for component costs to keep falling, I also kinda feel that if somebody *really* wants ADS-B Out in a glider today then they should probably not hold out hoping for further large decreases in cost. Just write that check and get going. And as more folks do that we should all get a better feel on real world usefulness. For non-certified gliders they can already use lower-cost GPS sources (like the Trig TN-72). This differential costs between installation in certified and non-certified gliders is just frustratingly stupid bureaucracy helping getting in the way of ADS-B adoption.
>
> As of 1/31/17 there are only 33,099 aircraft equipped with ADS-B, and only 27,431 are good installs. Installs are happening at the rate of less than 1,500 per month. At this rate only about 46,000 aircraft will be equipped with ADS-B by the 1/1/2020 deadline. This means the vast majority of the general aviation fleet will not be equipped. If you are thinking about installing ADS-B to avoid mid-airs with GA aircraft you will be sadly disappointed.
>
> Tom
The should have been 46,000 MORE, for a total of 79,000 aircraft.
Tom
Tom BravoMike
May 18th 17, 02:13 AM
On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 7:47:36 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 1:54:02 AM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 9:06:59 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > > Where do you fly? The Minden/Reno area? Do you have a transponder today?
> > >
> > > Thanks for the thoughtful response. Yes, certified. Yes, Minden. Yes , transponder.
> > >
> > > Heavy tin is not the issue. The concern is the lighter GA tin that is not in contact with ATC.
> >
> > First thanks for equipping with a transponder in the Reno area.
> >
> > Sorry I should have also asked what transponder you have. If you have say a Trig TT-22 then the remaining cost is largely the suitable GPS receiver (e.g. the Trig TN70 for ~$2k plus install costs).
> >
> > If you voluntarily install ADS-B out in your *certified* glider you are required to meet the performance requirements of the 2020 Mandate which in practice today means a TSO-C145c GPS like the TN70. And just do whatever the transponder manufacturer says and ideally follow an existing STC documentation as closely as possible.
> >
> > But its not clear how useful this will actually be for different usage scenarios. There are just so many unknowns here. You might want to do some informal survey of what ADS-B Out and In capabilities local GA aircraft have and try to get a feel for local ADS-R and TIS-B coverage.
> >
> > Are the GA aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out? (so they have a chance of being a ADS-R and TIS-B client) and are they equipped with ADS-B In and on what link layers? I assume in the high desert/mountainous areas of Nevada many will be equipping with ADS-B Out, and hopefully mostly on 1090ES Out... but it would be intersting to know.
> >
> > And hopefully GA users have gotten the message and are only buying dual link receivers.
> >
> > If you are within ADS-B and SSR coverage then other aircraft properly equipped with ADS-B Out *and* ADS-B In will see your transponder equipped glider via TIS-B. Not so useful for close-flying gliders but more useful for GA aircraft to see gliders with. Likely not useful say close to the pattern area at Minden airport because the Reno located SSR radar can't see low down the valley. (And TIS-B requires the ADS-B Out system in the client aircraft to be properly set up to transmit the correct capability codes that describe the aircraft's ADS-B In capabilities. So remind GA pilots using portable ADS-B In systems to check if their ADS-B Out system is properly configured to advertise their correct ADS-B In capability).
> >
> > If within SSR coverage and the GA aircraft is communicating with ATC then that that helps avoid you with just a transponder.
> >
> > If you have 1090ES Out and the GA aircraft has a 1090ES or dual-link ADS-B receiver they'll see you directly.
> >
> > If you have 1090ES Out and the GA aircraft has a UAT receiver and no ADS-B Out then it won't reliably see you. It may see ADS-R messages about your aircraft transmitted for other client aircraft. A potentially confusing/dangerous situation.
> >
> > If you have 1090ES Out and the GA aircraft has properly configured ADS-B Out (UAT or 1090ES) and UAT-In and is within ADS-B ground coverage then it will see your aircraft via ADS-R.
> >
> > So maybe lots of things to look at with the GA pilots in the area. With all that complexity and costs and hassles (including installation costs and increased power-consumption) it may be that the marginal gain of installing ADS-B Out is not worth it. OTOH I would not be flying in that area at all without a transponder for the airlines and fast jets and general help it gives via ATC.
> >
> > There may be some hope about STC based approval for non-TSO GPS sources for ADS-B Out install in certified aircraft, if that happened then maybe the GPS part of the cost of an install might go from the current ~$2k to say ~$500 or so. You'll still have some install costs and hassle of finding an A&P who know what they are doing to do this properly. So while it will be nicer for component costs to keep falling, I also kinda feel that if somebody *really* wants ADS-B Out in a glider today then they should probably not hold out hoping for further large decreases in cost. Just write that check and get going. And as more folks do that we should all get a better feel on real world usefulness. For non-certified gliders they can already use lower-cost GPS sources (like the Trig TN-72). This differential costs between installation in certified and non-certified gliders is just frustratingly stupid bureaucracy helping getting in the way of ADS-B adoption.
>
> As of 1/31/17 there are only 33,099 aircraft equipped with ADS-B, and only 27,431 are good installs. Installs are happening at the rate of less than 1,500 per month. At this rate only about 46,000 aircraft will be equipped with ADS-B by the 1/1/2020 deadline. This means the vast majority of the general aviation fleet will not be equipped. If you are thinking about installing ADS-B to avoid mid-airs with GA aircraft you will be sadly disappointed.
>
> Tom
Something is not right with your calculation. Even if it were only new 1,000 installs/month, that would still add 35,000 to the original 33K; with 1,500/month it will be additional 50K, for the total of over 80K by 2020. And one can easily assume that the installations will accelerate and explode as the deadline gets closer.
Tom BravoMike
Tom BravoMike
Tom BravoMike
May 18th 17, 02:20 AM
> The should have been 46,000 MORE, for a total of 79,000 aircraft.
>
> Tom
One can easily expect that the installations will accelerate and explode as the deadline gets closer.
son_of_flubber
May 18th 17, 02:59 AM
On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 8:47:36 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> If you are thinking about installing ADS-B to avoid mid-airs with GA aircraft you will be sadly disappointed.<
Some of the folks with ADS-B will become lax about visually scanning for traffic.
Dave Nadler
May 18th 17, 01:50 PM
On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 10:00:01 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 8:47:36 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > If you are thinking about installing ADS-B to avoid mid-airs
> > with GA aircraft you will be sadly disappointed.
>
> Some of the folks with ADS-B will become lax about visually scanning
> for traffic.
If you think they are scanning now, you could be more than disappointed...
On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 6:20:37 PM UTC-7, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> > The should have been 46,000 MORE, for a total of 79,000 aircraft.
> >
> > Tom
>
> One can easily expect that the installations will accelerate and explode as the deadline gets closer.
No, it won't - there are a limited number of shops in the US capable of installing ADS-B (340) and some aircraft take an incredible amount of labor (160 hours). The installation rate has been very steady over the last 3 years.
And even if there were an increase there will still be a huge group (over half) of aircraft w/o ADS-B come 1/1/2020. Why do you think that the FAA offered a $500 incentive to install it?
Tom
C-FFKQ (42)
May 18th 17, 02:38 PM
On Thursday, 18 May 2017 08:50:05 UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 10:00:01 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 8:47:36 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > > If you are thinking about installing ADS-B to avoid mid-airs
> > > with GA aircraft you will be sadly disappointed.
> >
> > Some of the folks with ADS-B will become lax about visually scanning
> > for traffic.
>
> If you think they are scanning now, you could be more than disappointed...
I was in a thermal near my home airport with two other gliders; we were spread out about 500' vertical from each other. A Cessna 172 breezed through the centre of our group, maybe 75 metres from me.
Dave Nadler
May 18th 17, 02:46 PM
On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 10:00:01 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 8:47:36 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > If you are thinking about installing ADS-B to avoid mid-airs
> > with GA aircraft you will be sadly disappointed.
>
> Some of the folks with ADS-B will become lax about visually scanning
> for traffic.
If you think they are scanning now, you could be more than disappointed...
Dan Marotta
May 18th 17, 03:06 PM
Power pilots generally are unaware of the existence of gliders. It's sad
to think that a widely accepted excuse for killing someone (glider,
motorcycle, bicyclist...) is: "I didn't expect to see a (name your victim).
On 5/18/2017 7:38 AM, C-FFKQ (42) wrote:
> On Thursday, 18 May 2017 08:50:05 UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:
>> On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 10:00:01 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 8:47:36 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
>>>> If you are thinking about installing ADS-B to avoid mid-airs
>>>> with GA aircraft you will be sadly disappointed.
>>> Some of the folks with ADS-B will become lax about visually scanning
>>> for traffic.
>> If you think they are scanning now, you could be more than disappointed...
> I was in a thermal near my home airport with two other gliders; we were spread out about 500' vertical from each other. A Cessna 172 breezed through the centre of our group, maybe 75 metres from me.
--
Dan, 5J
jfitch
May 18th 17, 04:32 PM
On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 5:59:49 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 5:47:36 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 1:54:02 AM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 9:06:59 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > > > Where do you fly? The Minden/Reno area? Do you have a transponder today?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the thoughtful response. Yes, certified. Yes, Minden. Yes , transponder.
> > > >
> > > > Heavy tin is not the issue. The concern is the lighter GA tin that is not in contact with ATC.
> > >
> > > First thanks for equipping with a transponder in the Reno area.
> > >
> > > Sorry I should have also asked what transponder you have. If you have say a Trig TT-22 then the remaining cost is largely the suitable GPS receiver (e.g. the Trig TN70 for ~$2k plus install costs).
> > >
> > > If you voluntarily install ADS-B out in your *certified* glider you are required to meet the performance requirements of the 2020 Mandate which in practice today means a TSO-C145c GPS like the TN70. And just do whatever the transponder manufacturer says and ideally follow an existing STC documentation as closely as possible.
> > >
> > > But its not clear how useful this will actually be for different usage scenarios. There are just so many unknowns here. You might want to do some informal survey of what ADS-B Out and In capabilities local GA aircraft have and try to get a feel for local ADS-R and TIS-B coverage.
> > >
> > > Are the GA aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out? (so they have a chance of being a ADS-R and TIS-B client) and are they equipped with ADS-B In and on what link layers? I assume in the high desert/mountainous areas of Nevada many will be equipping with ADS-B Out, and hopefully mostly on 1090ES Out.... but it would be intersting to know.
> > >
> > > And hopefully GA users have gotten the message and are only buying dual link receivers.
> > >
> > > If you are within ADS-B and SSR coverage then other aircraft properly equipped with ADS-B Out *and* ADS-B In will see your transponder equipped glider via TIS-B. Not so useful for close-flying gliders but more useful for GA aircraft to see gliders with. Likely not useful say close to the pattern area at Minden airport because the Reno located SSR radar can't see low down the valley. (And TIS-B requires the ADS-B Out system in the client aircraft to be properly set up to transmit the correct capability codes that describe the aircraft's ADS-B In capabilities. So remind GA pilots using portable ADS-B In systems to check if their ADS-B Out system is properly configured to advertise their correct ADS-B In capability).
> > >
> > > If within SSR coverage and the GA aircraft is communicating with ATC then that that helps avoid you with just a transponder.
> > >
> > > If you have 1090ES Out and the GA aircraft has a 1090ES or dual-link ADS-B receiver they'll see you directly.
> > >
> > > If you have 1090ES Out and the GA aircraft has a UAT receiver and no ADS-B Out then it won't reliably see you. It may see ADS-R messages about your aircraft transmitted for other client aircraft. A potentially confusing/dangerous situation.
> > >
> > > If you have 1090ES Out and the GA aircraft has properly configured ADS-B Out (UAT or 1090ES) and UAT-In and is within ADS-B ground coverage then it will see your aircraft via ADS-R.
> > >
> > > So maybe lots of things to look at with the GA pilots in the area. With all that complexity and costs and hassles (including installation costs and increased power-consumption) it may be that the marginal gain of installing ADS-B Out is not worth it. OTOH I would not be flying in that area at all without a transponder for the airlines and fast jets and general help it gives via ATC.
> > >
> > > There may be some hope about STC based approval for non-TSO GPS sources for ADS-B Out install in certified aircraft, if that happened then maybe the GPS part of the cost of an install might go from the current ~$2k to say ~$500 or so. You'll still have some install costs and hassle of finding an A&P who know what they are doing to do this properly. So while it will be nicer for component costs to keep falling, I also kinda feel that if somebody *really* wants ADS-B Out in a glider today then they should probably not hold out hoping for further large decreases in cost. Just write that check and get going. And as more folks do that we should all get a better feel on real world usefulness. For non-certified gliders they can already use lower-cost GPS sources (like the Trig TN-72). This differential costs between installation in certified and non-certified gliders is just frustratingly stupid bureaucracy helping getting in the way of ADS-B adoption.
> >
> > As of 1/31/17 there are only 33,099 aircraft equipped with ADS-B, and only 27,431 are good installs. Installs are happening at the rate of less than 1,500 per month. At this rate only about 46,000 aircraft will be equipped with ADS-B by the 1/1/2020 deadline. This means the vast majority of the general aviation fleet will not be equipped. If you are thinking about installing ADS-B to avoid mid-airs with GA aircraft you will be sadly disappointed.
> >
> > Tom
>
> The should have been 46,000 MORE, for a total of 79,000 aircraft.
>
> Tom
To the first order, the carriage of ADS-B of the aircraft you encounter is random. Therefore if half the aircraft are equipped, your chance of seeing them on ADS-B is 50%, which might translate to 50% less chance of collision.. Not perfect, but you could only be against this if you were hoping ADS-B would be a 'comic book alarm', replacing all other forms of watch keeping.
son_of_flubber
May 18th 17, 06:26 PM
> >> On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 10:00:01 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> >>> Some of the folks with ADS-B will become lax about visually scanning
> >>> for traffic.
I've was giving our L/D-impaired-brethren the benefit of the doubt. I assume that power traffic does not see me. I've been overtaken close by on my six.
ADS-B will make this problem worse for unequipped gliders and better for TABS-equipped gliders.
Tom BravoMike
May 18th 17, 08:29 PM
> I was in a thermal near my home airport with two other gliders; we were spread out about 500' vertical from each other. A Cessna 172 breezed through the centre of our group, maybe 75 metres from me.
Thank you for sharing this with us. This supports my personal strong conviction that the glider ADS-B exemption doesn't make much sense. Either everybody, yes, any aircraft - power, gliders, balloons, drones - is equipped or the system is lame by definition. I don't mention geese, hawks and other birds because they do quite a good job avoiding us with our low speeds, which they sometimes can't do when challenged by airliners.
BTW, is there any talk about placing the ADS-B signals on high towers marked on aviation maps? That would be an interesting add-on to the system.
On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 10:32:04 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 5:59:49 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 5:47:36 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 1:54:02 AM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 9:06:59 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > > > > Where do you fly? The Minden/Reno area? Do you have a transponder today?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the thoughtful response. Yes, certified. Yes, Minden.. Yes , transponder.
> > > > >
> > > > > Heavy tin is not the issue. The concern is the lighter GA tin that is not in contact with ATC.
> > > >
> > > > First thanks for equipping with a transponder in the Reno area.
> > > >
> > > > Sorry I should have also asked what transponder you have. If you have say a Trig TT-22 then the remaining cost is largely the suitable GPS receiver (e.g. the Trig TN70 for ~$2k plus install costs).
> > > >
> > > > If you voluntarily install ADS-B out in your *certified* glider you are required to meet the performance requirements of the 2020 Mandate which in practice today means a TSO-C145c GPS like the TN70. And just do whatever the transponder manufacturer says and ideally follow an existing STC documentation as closely as possible.
> > > >
> > > > But its not clear how useful this will actually be for different usage scenarios. There are just so many unknowns here. You might want to do some informal survey of what ADS-B Out and In capabilities local GA aircraft have and try to get a feel for local ADS-R and TIS-B coverage.
> > > >
> > > > Are the GA aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out? (so they have a chance of being a ADS-R and TIS-B client) and are they equipped with ADS-B In and on what link layers? I assume in the high desert/mountainous areas of Nevada many will be equipping with ADS-B Out, and hopefully mostly on 1090ES Out... but it would be intersting to know.
> > > >
> > > > And hopefully GA users have gotten the message and are only buying dual link receivers.
> > > >
> > > > If you are within ADS-B and SSR coverage then other aircraft properly equipped with ADS-B Out *and* ADS-B In will see your transponder equipped glider via TIS-B. Not so useful for close-flying gliders but more useful for GA aircraft to see gliders with. Likely not useful say close to the pattern area at Minden airport because the Reno located SSR radar can't see low down the valley. (And TIS-B requires the ADS-B Out system in the client aircraft to be properly set up to transmit the correct capability codes that describe the aircraft's ADS-B In capabilities. So remind GA pilots using portable ADS-B In systems to check if their ADS-B Out system is properly configured to advertise their correct ADS-B In capability).
> > > >
> > > > If within SSR coverage and the GA aircraft is communicating with ATC then that that helps avoid you with just a transponder.
> > > >
> > > > If you have 1090ES Out and the GA aircraft has a 1090ES or dual-link ADS-B receiver they'll see you directly.
> > > >
> > > > If you have 1090ES Out and the GA aircraft has a UAT receiver and no ADS-B Out then it won't reliably see you. It may see ADS-R messages about your aircraft transmitted for other client aircraft. A potentially confusing/dangerous situation.
> > > >
> > > > If you have 1090ES Out and the GA aircraft has properly configured ADS-B Out (UAT or 1090ES) and UAT-In and is within ADS-B ground coverage then it will see your aircraft via ADS-R.
> > > >
> > > > So maybe lots of things to look at with the GA pilots in the area. With all that complexity and costs and hassles (including installation costs and increased power-consumption) it may be that the marginal gain of installing ADS-B Out is not worth it. OTOH I would not be flying in that area at all without a transponder for the airlines and fast jets and general help it gives via ATC.
> > > >
> > > > There may be some hope about STC based approval for non-TSO GPS sources for ADS-B Out install in certified aircraft, if that happened then maybe the GPS part of the cost of an install might go from the current ~$2k to say ~$500 or so. You'll still have some install costs and hassle of finding an A&P who know what they are doing to do this properly. So while it will be nicer for component costs to keep falling, I also kinda feel that if somebody *really* wants ADS-B Out in a glider today then they should probably not hold out hoping for further large decreases in cost. Just write that check and get going. And as more folks do that we should all get a better feel on real world usefulness. For non-certified gliders they can already use lower-cost GPS sources (like the Trig TN-72). This differential costs between installation in certified and non-certified gliders is just frustratingly stupid bureaucracy helping getting in the way of ADS-B adoption.
> > >
> > > As of 1/31/17 there are only 33,099 aircraft equipped with ADS-B, and only 27,431 are good installs. Installs are happening at the rate of less than 1,500 per month. At this rate only about 46,000 aircraft will be equipped with ADS-B by the 1/1/2020 deadline. This means the vast majority of the general aviation fleet will not be equipped. If you are thinking about installing ADS-B to avoid mid-airs with GA aircraft you will be sadly disappointed.
> > >
> > > Tom
> >
> > The should have been 46,000 MORE, for a total of 79,000 aircraft.
> >
> > Tom
>
> To the first order, the carriage of ADS-B of the aircraft you encounter is random. Therefore if half the aircraft are equipped, your chance of seeing them on ADS-B is 50%, which might translate to 50% less chance of collision. Not perfect, but you could only be against this if you were hoping ADS-B would be a 'comic book alarm', replacing all other forms of watch keeping..
What you are ignoring is that the large majority of power aircraft are transponder equipped. If you are ADS-B OUT and ADS-B IN equipped, within range of an ADS-B ground station, and high enough so that a transponder equipped aircraft is visible to ATC radar, thanks to TIS-B you will see all other transponder equipped aircraft in your vicinity, regardless of whether or not they are ADS-B equipped.
If you are flying near any major metropolitan area, which many of us are, and where the GA traffic density is the highest, ADS-B is a tremendous help in seeing other traffic, even with today's relatively low adoption rates.
Until you fly in an ADS-B equipped aircraft you have no idea of how much traffic is out there that you currently don't see.
Tom BravoMike
May 19th 17, 02:11 AM
(...)
>
> BTW, is there any talk about placing the ADS-B signals on high towers marked on aviation maps? That would be an interesting add-on to the system.
OK, I have found the answer myself. No need to include high towers/obstacles in the ADS-B system as they belong to the map information and many good software pieces actually give that information in flight with respective audio warnings, if necessary. Still, who knows, maybe drones could be helped in that way in the future?
My spontaneous question was a result of watching those recent amazing flights along the ridge with hundreds of power windmills.
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