Stemme S12 in Michigan this Saturday, May 20th (KOZW) @ 4 pm

[Sean Fidler]

If you are interested in checking out the new Stemme S12, it will be on-site at Crosswinds Aviation in Howell Michigan this Saturday afternoon at 4 pm.. We will have the BBQ going, hamburgers, hot dogs and all the fixings. Yes, beer! Crosswinds Aviation is an incredible aviation facility as well with numerous rental and training aircraft (Cirrus, Diamond, etc).

Feel free to pass this invite along to any friends who may also be interested.

Facebook Event: www.facebook.com/events/888477127958645
Stemme S12 Videos: www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdjFauhULNA
Stemme Photos: http://www.stemme.com/multimedia.html
Stemme website: http://www.stemme.com/s12.html

RSVP to smfidlerATgmailcom
(Please do take a moment to RSVP ASAP so I know how many are coming!!!)
HOST: Crosswinds Aviation - Matt and Andrea Dahline
CO-HOSTS: Wes Chumley of StemmeUSA & Sean Fidler
TIME: Saturday, May, 20 from 4 pm - 7 pm
LOCATION: Crosswinds Aviation (KOZW)
3808 W. Grand River Howell, MI 48855
(517) 552-1101
crosswindsaviation.com

About the Stemme S12: The Stemme family of German motor gliders (www.stemme.com) are generally considered the "state of the art" in terms motor glider performance and convenience. With its innovative folding propeller, retractable nose cone and easy to fold wings (allowing it to fit into a standard 40-foot T-hanger), the Stemme S10 has been the envy of all sailplane pilots for years. The Stemme's innovative design offers more practical convenience than a traditional sailplane motor glider configuration. The Stemme's bi-lateral landing gear/taildragger configuration provides for easy ground handling and taxi. When that convenience is combined with its exceptional soaring performance (50:1 + glide ratio, or the same as modern racing sailplanes) there is simply no comparison. With the Stemme S-10, pilots enjoyed the best of both worlds...so to speak. Just this year, Stemme introduced its new S12 design. The S12 features longer wings (25-meter), higher performance, wider landing gear and numerous other improvements such as improved aerodynamics, flight balance, and instrumentation.

[Sean Fidler]

Fun, fun day!

Short video: https://youtu.be/tp_xQUik-NQ

Photos: https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0tGDZLe8GvCM0b

[AS]

On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 5:58:48 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Fun, fun day!
>
> Short video: https://youtu.be/tp_xQUik-NQ
>
> Photos: https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0tGDZLe8GvCM0b

I know the old adage of 'If you have to ask, you can't afford it' applies but I am still curious how many monetary units this engineering marvel from the Fatherland will set me back. Anybody knows?

Uli
'AS'

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

And of course that adage is untrue, can we stop perpetuating it. Only a fool buys something without knowing the cost. I have purchased nine aircraft in my life, including a WWII fighter..., I have asked the price each time, then I have asked the real coast. Look at a current gen glider price list then add 50-75K for extras, trailer, instruments...


On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 5:25:49 PM UTC-7, AS wrote:
> On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 5:58:48 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> > Fun, fun day!
> >
> > Short video: https://youtu.be/tp_xQUik-NQ
> >
> > Photos: https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0tGDZLe8GvCM0b
>
> I know the old adage of 'If you have to ask, you can't afford it' applies but I am still curious how many monetary units this engineering marvel from the Fatherland will set me back. Anybody knows?
>
> Uli
> 'AS'

[KEN]

On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 11:20:32 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> If you are interested in checking out the new Stemme S12, it will be on-site at Crosswinds Aviation in Howell Michigan this Saturday afternoon at 4 pm. We will have the BBQ going, hamburgers, hot dogs and all the fixings. Yes, beer! Crosswinds Aviation is an incredible aviation facility as well with numerous rental and training aircraft (Cirrus, Diamond, etc).
>
> Feel free to pass this invite along to any friends who may also be interested.
>
> Facebook Event: www.facebook.com/events/888477127958645
> Stemme S12 Videos: www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdjFauhULNA
> Stemme Photos: http://www.stemme.com/multimedia.html
> Stemme website: http://www.stemme.com/s12.html
>
> RSVP to smfidlerATgmailcom
> (Please do take a moment to RSVP ASAP so I know how many are coming!!!)
> HOST: Crosswinds Aviation - Matt and Andrea Dahline
> CO-HOSTS: Wes Chumley of StemmeUSA & Sean Fidler
> TIME: Saturday, May, 20 from 4 pm - 7 pm
> LOCATION: Crosswinds Aviation (KOZW)
> 3808 W. Grand River Howell, MI 48855
> (517) 552-1101
> crosswindsaviation.com
>
> About the Stemme S12: The Stemme family of German motor gliders (www.stemme.com) are generally considered the "state of the art" in terms motor glider performance and convenience. With its innovative folding propeller, retractable nose cone and easy to fold wings (allowing it to fit into a standard 40-foot T-hanger), the Stemme S10 has been the envy of all sailplane pilots for years. The Stemme's innovative design offers more practical convenience than a traditional sailplane motor glider configuration. The Stemme's bi-lateral landing gear/taildragger configuration provides for easy ground handling and taxi. When that convenience is combined with its exceptional soaring performance (50:1 + glide ratio, or the same as modern racing sailplanes) there is simply no comparison. With the Stemme S-10, pilots enjoyed the best of both worlds...so to speak. Just this year, Stemme introduced its new S12 design. The S12 features longer wings (25-meter), higher performance, wider landing gear and numerous other improvements such as improved aerodynamics, flight balance, and instrumentation.

June issue of Flying magazine: Stemme S12 can be had for $349,000.00 to $369000.00

[AS]

On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 10:19:32 PM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> And of course that adage is untrue, can we stop perpetuating it. Only a fool buys something without knowing the cost. I have purchased nine aircraft in my life, including a WWII fighter..., I have asked the price each time, then I have asked the real coast. Look at a current gen glider price list then add 50-75K for extras, trailer, instruments...
>
>
> On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 5:25:49 PM UTC-7, AS wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 5:58:48 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> > > Fun, fun day!
> > >
> > > Short video: https://youtu.be/tp_xQUik-NQ
> > >
> > > Photos: https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0tGDZLe8GvCM0b
> >
> > I know the old adage of 'If you have to ask, you can't afford it' applies but I am still curious how many monetary units this engineering marvel from the Fatherland will set me back. Anybody knows?
> >
> > Uli
> > 'AS'

Thanks for sharing that great wisdom - now I know exactly how much a S12 lists for! ;-)

[Dan Marotta]

Sign me up! Ya know, even though electric trim would be nice, I can see
that almost as a consumable item. I'm happy wrestling with my manual
trim. A baggage compartment would also be nice but my wife and I packed
for a week long trip to Minden and stuffed everything behind the seats
in zip lock bags. The extra 2 meters of wing would be nice (size
matters, doesn't it?), but who really needs 52:1 when he has 50:1? I've
only rarely seen 50:1 anyway. On yesterday's flight out of Nephi, I saw
cruise L/Ds ranging from about 180:1 to about 17:1. I'm not sure the
extra span would have helped.

Still, if someone made me a decent offer on a really great S10-VT, I
might pony up the difference and get me one of them S-12s but I
absolutely would not get an auto pilot. Who needs the extra
maintenance? I did THIS
<https://skylines.aero/flights/75962#tab-overview> two days ago...

Dan
S10-VT, 5J

On 5/21/2017 8:51 PM, Ken wrote:
> On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 11:20:32 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
>> If you are interested in checking out the new Stemme S12, it will be on-site at Crosswinds Aviation in Howell Michigan this Saturday afternoon at 4 pm. We will have the BBQ going, hamburgers, hot dogs and all the fixings. Yes, beer! Crosswinds Aviation is an incredible aviation facility as well with numerous rental and training aircraft (Cirrus, Diamond, etc).
>>
>> Feel free to pass this invite along to any friends who may also be interested.
>>
>> Facebook Event: www.facebook.com/events/888477127958645
>> Stemme S12 Videos: www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdjFauhULNA
>> Stemme Photos: http://www.stemme.com/multimedia.html
>> Stemme website: http://www.stemme.com/s12.html
>>
>> RSVP to smfidlerATgmailcom
>> (Please do take a moment to RSVP ASAP so I know how many are coming!!!)
>> HOST: Crosswinds Aviation - Matt and Andrea Dahline
>> CO-HOSTS: Wes Chumley of StemmeUSA & Sean Fidler
>> TIME: Saturday, May, 20 from 4 pm - 7 pm
>> LOCATION: Crosswinds Aviation (KOZW)
>> 3808 W. Grand River Howell, MI 48855
>> (517) 552-1101
>> crosswindsaviation.com
>>
>> About the Stemme S12: The Stemme family of German motor gliders (www.stemme.com) are generally considered the "state of the art" in terms motor glider performance and convenience. With its innovative folding propeller, retractable nose cone and easy to fold wings (allowing it to fit into a standard 40-foot T-hanger), the Stemme S10 has been the envy of all sailplane pilots for years. The Stemme's innovative design offers more practical convenience than a traditional sailplane motor glider configuration. The Stemme's bi-lateral landing gear/taildragger configuration provides for easy ground handling and taxi. When that convenience is combined with its exceptional soaring performance (50:1 + glide ratio, or the same as modern racing sailplanes) there is simply no comparison. With the Stemme S-10, pilots enjoyed the best of both worlds...so to speak. Just this year, Stemme introduced its new S12 design. The S12 features longer wings (25-meter), higher performance, wider landing gear and numerous other improvements such as improved aerodynamics, flight balance, and instrumentation.
> June issue of Flying magazine: Stemme S12 can be had for $349,000.00 to $369000.00

--
Dan, 5J

[AS]

> June issue of Flying magazine: Stemme S12 can be had for $349,000.00 to $369000.00

Thanks Ken! Well, take me off the list .... ;-)
Uli
'AS'

[Sean Fidler]

I guess you get what you pay for. 😆

Arcus M is same price but the Stemme sits rigged in T hangar vs requiring a huge hangar to keep the Arcus (or similar) rigged, and needing tow out gear to get to the runway, etc. Depends on the mission I suppose. In my old age I'm getting tired of all the hassle. I just want to go.

Also, Arcus engine overheats and you can't cruise to the good condtions.

Interesting decisions.

[Dave Nadler]

On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 10:22:47 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Arcus M is same price

No, ArcusM equipped and delivered ~ $250k

> but the Stemme sits rigged in T hangar vs requiring a huge hangar

As you've seen me do solo, assembling ArcusM is about the same time
and effort as a single seater... And it looked nice in your hangar ;-)

See ya, Dave

[Dan Marotta]

Ya! See my previous post with a link to my flight from Moriarty to
Nephi. 5+ hours between 17-18,000' MSL. 11.3 gallons... Sure beats
driving 12 hours dragging a trailer and I can fold the wings in 4
minutes (after spend about 5 to secure the pads on the back of the
fuselage).

On 5/22/2017 8:22 AM, Sean Fidler wrote:
> I guess you get what you pay for. 😆
>
> Arcus M is same price but the Stemme sits rigged in T hangar vs requiring a huge hangar to keep the Arcus (or similar) rigged, and needing tow out gear to get to the runway, etc. Depends on the mission I suppose. In my old age I'm getting tired of all the hassle. I just want to go.
>
> Also, Arcus engine overheats and you can't cruise to the good condtions.
>
> Interesting decisions.

--
Dan, 5J

[JS]

Can the S12 be aerotowed or winched like a proper glider?
Believe the S10 did not have those options.
Jim

[Duster]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Vtn-32cvY8

[[email protected]]

Nice but I think I'll wait for the S14.

[Sean Fidler]

$250k for an Arcus with trailer and electronics and gear? That's not too bad. The Stemme S12 is 369k "loaded" up. A Cobra trailer is another 50k (2-3 hours to rig and derig). Few buy the trailer.

I finally got a chance to fly it today for a short cross country in 2-4 knots of broken, very narrow lift. It flew nicely, needed a little more of an act CG maybe. All operation is simple.The view out the canopy is absolutely extraordinary. Sitting side by side is a game changer. Roll rate was unsurprisingly sluggish but it climbed very, very well even in fairly broken thermals. The motor start is incredibly fast in flight. Literally a few seconds. Landed in a gusty 15-22 mph crosswind. Was not bad at all but requires experience for sure. Taxi is incredibly simple for a tail dragger. Really, really fun overall.

[Dan Marotta]

That's pretty much descriptive of my S10-VT which I've flown some 340
hours since last March.

Today I wanted to soar from Nephi to Logan but the conditions just
weren't there (clouds obscuring the mountain tops). So I simply started
the engine, climbed to 17,500' MSL, and flew directly over the SLC Class
B airspace (with a proper clearance). Arriving at Logan, configured for
landing, and about to turn base, my flying buddy, Miguel, came up on the
radio to ask if I'd arrive in the Logan area and told me that he was in
the ridge to the east. It took a matter of seconds to start the engine,
clean up the aircraft, and climb up to the ridge to join Miguel. After
landing, I simply started the engine and taxied to parking. No more
walking a mile to find the car and the tow bar!

On 5/22/2017 8:49 PM, Sean Fidler wrote:
> $250k for an Arcus with trailer and electronics and gear? That's not too bad. The Stemme S12 is 369k "loaded" up. A Cobra trailer is another 50k (2-3 hours to rig and derig). Few buy the trailer.
>
> I finally got a chance to fly it today for a short cross country in 2-4 knots of broken, very narrow lift. It flew nicely, needed a little more of an act CG maybe. All operation is simple.The view out the canopy is absolutely extraordinary. Sitting side by side is a game changer. Roll rate was unsurprisingly sluggish but it climbed very, very well even in fairly broken thermals. The motor start is incredibly fast in flight. Literally a few seconds. Landed in a gusty 15-22 mph crosswind. Was not bad at all but requires experience for sure. Taxi is incredibly simple for a tail dragger. Really, really fun overall.
>

--
Dan, 5J

[waremark]

"Also, Arcus engine overheats and you can't cruise to the good condtions. "

Really? Mine has never got hot and cruises smoothly at 85 knots. I appreciate the Stemme's cruise ability is far better but you can get to better weather in the Arcus.

Dave's price surprises me. The full kit was 265k euros 5 years ago including German sales tax. Do US buyers have to pay sales tax?

I didn't consider a Stemme. I wanted a glider which flies like my friends' 18m singles.

[AS]

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 4:50:46 AM UTC-4, waremark wrote:
> "Also, Arcus engine overheats and you can't cruise to the good condtions. "
>
> Really? Mine has never got hot and cruises smoothly at 85 knots. I appreciate the Stemme's cruise ability is far better but you can get to better weather in the Arcus.
>
> Dave's price surprises me. The full kit was 265k euros 5 years ago including German sales tax. Do US buyers have to pay sales tax?
>
> I didn't consider a Stemme. I wanted a glider which flies like my friends' 18m singles.


>>> Do US buyers have to pay sales tax? <<<
If exported outside of the EU, the German VAT is not charged. However, I think the US has some 'luxury tax' on imported goods above a certain value.

Uli
'AS'

[Dave Nadler]

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 4:50:46 AM UTC-4, waremark wrote:
> Dave's price surprises me. The full kit was 265k euros 5 years ago
> including German sales tax. Do US buyers have to pay sales tax?

$250k does not include sales tax.
No VAT in USA, but some states have sales tax.

[Dave Nadler]

On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 10:22:47 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Also, Arcus engine overheats and you can't cruise to the good condtions.

Mine has never overheated, not sure what you're talking about?
ArcusM is certainly not a machine suited for long distance cruise,
but no problem for shorter distances.

[Sean Fidler]

Arcus overheating: I understand that one cannot run at full power for more than a few minutes with the ArcusM (or 32?). Sorry if I'm mistaken. Please explain further if I am. I also understood ArcusM's were impractical to cruise long distances under power (again, please correct me if I am mistaken). Also, IMO, the motor operation systems (despite improvements) are still slightly "finicky" (my experience)." As I understand it, the ArcusM and others like it are designed for self launch over an airfield and immediate soaring, not cross country cruising under power. In contrast, the Stemme can cruise easily at 140 knots for almost 1000 miles. One thing I love about the Stemme is that if the good weather is 50 or even 100 miles away, one can fly there under power in minutes. So, cross country cruising practicality (overheating, speed, efficiency, lack of ground handing at far off destination vs the Stemme which can easily taxi and tie out, etc.) is what I'm getting at regarding over-heating. If ArcusM owners are doing this kind of power flying, and over-heating is no concern, I had no idea.

Stemme S12 impressions: The Stemme was unbelievably practical in terms of rigging and hangaring and taxiing (vs ground handling and towing out to runway) and of course general self launch flying charateristics. But the gleaming advantage I see is he Stemme's especially quick, easy and reliable engine start and general operation when soaring and needing the motor to start NOW. After flying in the Stemme yesterday I realized almost immediately that there is simply no comparison in these areas to any other glider with the exception of FES. I flew for an hour into 25 mph headwinds, got low (1200 ft) and within 3 seconds of saying "ok, that's enough" the engine was running and the throttle was being advanced. The only downside I can see is that landouts in fields are not a good option (flipping over forward in soft ground is a risk) and once in said field getting out would be a major undertaking. That and of course the fairly significant price tag. But overall as a self launching motorgliders this thing is incredible.

Again, it is an interesting decision. I also wish to fly at an airport where the Arcus or 32 would be very impractical (likely impossible). I would need to integrate with moderate regional airport power traffic and there is no grass parallel for glider operations.

All I can say is that the world would be a better place with many more Stemme's (or ArcusMs or 32s) available for Cross Country training. 20 minutes from arriving at the airport and taking the keys out of the cars ignition, the Stemme can be at altitude and soaring cross country. That is a unique and almost magical capability.

[Dave Nadler]

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 11:31:44 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Arcus overheating: I understand that one cannot run at full power
> for more than a few minutes with the ArcusM (or 32?).
> Sorry if I'm mistaken.

You are mistaken; ArcusM (unlike 32) has no time-limit on max power.
Max RPM is limited to 5 minutes 6600-6700, but max power is 6600 anyway.
Range in the manual (with 3 tanks) is listed as 135nm.

> As I understand it, the ArcusM and others like it are designed for
> self launch over an airfield and immediate soaring, not cross
> country cruising under power.

Yup. Absolutely not optimized for XC cruise under power.

> The only downside I can see is that landouts in fields are not a good option
> (flipping over forward in soft ground is a risk) and once in said field
> getting out would be a major undertaking.

And field landings are prohibited in the manual IIRC.
So Stemme owners I know must be much more conservative about getting low.
As in any motorglider, landing is plan A. Plan B is when the motor starts.

> I also wish to fly at an airport where the Arcus or 32 would be very
> impractical (likely impossible). I would need to integrate with moderate
> regional airport power traffic and there is no grass parallel for
> glider operations.

I fly my ArcusM at a regional airport with plenty of power traffic.
No problem to assemble solo in the AM and taxi (to and from runway).
You've seen me taxi to runway and back to your hangar at your home field.
Its a different machine than Stemme, but perhaps not as limited as you imagine...

[Sean Fidler]

Maybe I'll get the boys to bring the Ionia Arcus over to the Howell airport and see how it taxis. No question that the ArcusM is a phenomenal sailplane.

Thanks Dave.

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 1:26:01 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Maybe I'll get the boys to bring the Ionia Arcus over to the Howell airport and see how it taxis. No question that the ArcusM is a phenomenal sailplane.
>
> Thanks Dave.

The only issue for these big birds is availability of wide taxiways. I am lucky that from the hangar to a runway I have probably 150-200 feet wide path. I have a wing tip wheel so all of my wing needs to be on the taxi way. Some airports don't have taxiways wide enough for a 21 m ship like mine. So there is always a reason to put on the 18 m tips. Arcus has a wing wheel a few feet inboard from the wing tip and that will probably solve the narrow taxiway problem. The wankel will also easily cruise to a destination at low power settings with no heating up issues at all. You don't need full power for cruise. You would exceed speed limit for the airframe if you tried to maintain a level flight with full power.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 12:26:01 PM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Maybe I'll get the boys to bring the Ionia Arcus over to the Howell airport and see how it taxis. No question that the ArcusM is a phenomenal sailplane.
>
> Thanks Dave.

All the older Stemmes' are above gross weight with 2 normal people and a little gas on board. When I pointed that out to a Stemme rep at Oshkosh some time ago, he quickly tried to change the subject. The latest model has a MTOW of 900 kg but they don't list an empty weight anywhere. Legally most Stemmes can't be flown dual but they obviously don't fall apart if you do. I was not as impressed with the glider as Sean when taking a flight with Glider Bob years ago.
Herb

[Sean Fidler]

It's definitely big 25 meter glider (by far the largest I have ever flown) but it was still very fun to thermal soar. I guess it's more balanced that the S10, but not sure what that means exactly (hands off in bank). I have no real S10 experience with which to compare.

Also the prop assembly needs refurbishing every 200 hours at some not insignificant expense.

Updated Pics: https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0tGDZLe8GvCM0b

[Dave Nadler]

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 5:11:11 PM UTC-4, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 1:26:01 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> > Maybe I'll get the boys to bring the Ionia Arcus over to the Howell airport and see how it taxis. No question that the ArcusM is a phenomenal sailplane.
> >
> > Thanks Dave.
>
> The only issue for these big birds is availability of wide taxiways.
> I am lucky that from the hangar to a runway I have probably 150-200 feet
> wide path. I have a wing tip wheel so all of my wing needs to be on the
> taxi way. Some airports don't have taxiways wide enough for a 21 m
> ship like mine. So there is always a reason to put on the 18 m tips.
> Arcus has a wing wheel a few feet inboard from the wing tip and that
> will probably solve the narrow taxiway problem. The wankel will also
> easily cruise to a destination at low power settings with no heating
> up issues at all. You don't need full power for cruise. You would
> exceed speed limit for the airframe if you tried to maintain a
> level flight with full power.

All true. Antares at 20m gives me less than 1" extra space to edge of
taxiway (standard USA size) so requires some care, but tailwheel-in-rudder
and heavy tail weight gives precise steering so this is doable.
Arcus with inboard wing-wheel or Antares at 18m make this less critical.

Stemme has a different issue: it can get "rocking" (in roll) and hit a tip.
I know this has happened more than once (on grass fields) - damage results.

Always trade-offs!

See ya, Dave

[Duster]

I thought I read where the S-12 wheelbase was wider than the S-10, so the rockinrollin might be less of an issue.

[Dave Nadler]

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 8:18:42 PM UTC-4, Duster wrote:
> I thought I read where the S-12 wheelbase was wider than the S-10,
> so the rockinrollin might be less of an issue.

I don't know, but also span is bigger....

[Dan Marotta]

With its dual main wheels, the Stemme can taxi on a very narrow taxiway
since the wings are always level. In crowded areas, however, the wing
span can be a problem. That can be solved by having the wings folded in
congested areas.

On 5/23/2017 3:11 PM, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 1:26:01 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
>> Maybe I'll get the boys to bring the Ionia Arcus over to the Howell airport and see how it taxis. No question that the ArcusM is a phenomenal sailplane.
>>
>> Thanks Dave.
> The only issue for these big birds is availability of wide taxiways. I am lucky that from the hangar to a runway I have probably 150-200 feet wide path. I have a wing tip wheel so all of my wing needs to be on the taxi way. Some airports don't have taxiways wide enough for a 21 m ship like mine. So there is always a reason to put on the 18 m tips. Arcus has a wing wheel a few feet inboard from the wing tip and that will probably solve the narrow taxiway problem. The wankel will also easily cruise to a destination at low power settings with no heating up issues at all. You don't need full power for cruise. You would exceed speed limit for the airframe if you tried to maintain a level flight with full power.

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

Yes, the main gear track is wider in the 12 than the 10.

On 5/23/2017 6:47 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 8:18:42 PM UTC-4, Duster wrote:
>> I thought I read where the S-12 wheelbase was wider than the S-10,
>> so the rockinrollin might be less of an issue.
> I don't know, but also span is bigger....

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected][_2_]]

On 24/05/2017 09:28, Dave Nadler wrote:

>
> Stemme has a different issue: it can get "rocking" (in roll) and hit a tip.
> I know this has happened more than once (on grass fields) - damage results.
>
> Always trade-offs!
>
> See ya, Dave

I walked interestedly around the first Stemme I saw some years ago with
an aeronautical engineer friend. As we chatted about it he ran one hand
under the trailing edge of the wing tip and suggested I do the same.
The aileron bottom was heavily abraded for the outboard 4 feet or so.
Same on the other side.

'Every aeroplane touches the edge of the envelope somewhere' he said.

--
GC

[bumper[_4_]]

I owned a Stemme S10-VT for 8 years. I never scraped a wing. Once I scraped a wing tip skid, while taxiing at well above walking speed, I allowed one main wheel to drop into a drainage grate depression in the tarmac. No damage to the wing finish. I have never experienced "rocking and rolling".

As to handling, I would compare the difference between the S10 and my current ASH26E as a bit like that between a sedan and a sports car. The Stemme deals with turbulence better and gives a smoother ride. Ailerons are heavier, but I would not characterize roll as sluggish, and the addition effort is mostly unnoticed after flying for a few minutes . . . until after 5 hours or so when I found myself using two hands on the stick sometimes. Once cranked over into a thermal, the Stemme is more "stable" in that it tracks well and does not need the many small corrections one uses on a lighter ship.

Stemme ground handling is in a class by itself, making operations at even busy towered airports the same as with a power plane - blends right in.

The Stemme will operate in conditions that would have other high performance gliders staying in their boxes. Four of us launched from Cedar City after winds stiffened up overnight, blowing 35 knots mostly steady when it came time to go. Our taxiing to the runway center intersection required four 90 degree turns, all to the left, so we were exposed to that wind from every angle during taxi. I went first, and told Marty Hellman to just "cover" my wing tip, not touch it, for the first two turns when I would then be on my own. Launch required something less 20 feet and levitation straight up like an elevator! All of us took of safely.

bumper

[Sean Fidler]

The 12 is 6 inches wider than the 10 and they say that makes a big difference. I was told that in certain circumstances the 10 could start a rolling motion in taxi that would not stop (or worsened) until the pilot slowed or stoped the glider and let it settle. At Howell airport (6/10 taxiway for smoothness) it was never that bad but there was only a 18 inch to 2 foot clearance on some taxi lights. A big roll at the wrong time and it might have been possible to get a light. Most thought I was being to cautious and it was almost impossible to hit a light if near the centerline while taxiing. This is no different than towing a pure glider down a taxiway with taxiway lighting I suppose except the trailing edge is exposed and damage is far more severe.

For what it's worth...

[Sean Fidler]

Sorry, I heard 6 inches wider gear. I'm not sure if that's each side from center or total increase. Again the taxi was amazingly easy in Howell, and it was windy, and the taxiways are not perfect by any means (lots of elevation change on the airport), and it was blowing 20 knots all day.

That said, I wasn't used to 82 foot wings. Few are. They were both well over the taxi lighting and it was a 3/4 mile taxi to the runway. So maybe 100 sets of taxi lights along the way. If it was my 369k on the line I would have be very cautious taxiing at first. I'm sure eventually I would get more comfortable. Even a slight dip in the pavement caused eye opening movement in each wingtip. I have witnessed 2 sailplanes towed into runway lights (trailing edge first) and it still makes me nervous. But in this case I think it was unnecessary.

After a weekend which saw a significant number of pilots with no experience in the Stemme taxi out to the runway themselves, roll was clearly not an issue. I think that point says great things about the stability of the glider with its new increased landing gear width.

Sean

[Dan Marotta]

I'm at Logan, UT right now and operating on RWY 28 which has a width of
60'. I find that if I get right to one edge of the runway, I can
complete a U-turn on the pavement and taxi to parking. If I'm the
slightest bit off, one wheel will go off onto the hard packed gravel
shoulder.

On 5/23/2017 9:06 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Yes, the main gear track is wider in the 12 than the 10.
>
> On 5/23/2017 6:47 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 8:18:42 PM UTC-4, Duster wrote:
>>> I thought I read where the S-12 wheelbase was wider than the S-10,
>>> so the rockinrollin might be less of an issue.
>> I don't know, but also span is bigger....
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

On 5/24/2017 9:03 AM, bumper wrote:
> <snip>
>
> Stemme ground handling is in a class by itself, making operations at even busy towered airports the same as with a power plane - blends right in.
>
> <snip>
>
> bumper
>

Except in tight places. Taxiing in yesterday, I found the FBO had
parked a fuel truck about 77 feet (my span is 75') from the propeller
spinner of a Cessna. It was extremely slow taxiing between the two
using the shadows of my wing tips and the obstacles to maintain
separation. Of course, I could have folded the wings or taken an
alternate route.
--
Dan, 5J

[bumper[_4_]]

On Wednesday, May 24, 2017 at 8:39:24 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:

>
> Except in tight places. Taxiing in yesterday, I found the FBO had
> parked a fuel truck about 77 feet (my span is 75') from the propeller
> spinner of a Cessna. It was extremely slow taxiing between the two
> using the shadows of my wing tips and the obstacles to maintain
> separation. Of course, I could have folded the wings or taken an
> alternate route.
> --
> Dan, 5J

Dan,

There is that. Been a couple of airports, Once at an airshow due to close aircraft parking, and then at Pine Mountain Lake, CA with an embankment too close to the taxiway. Stopped and folded the wings. Didn't happen often. Much more difficult on some early S10's with no winglets - the winglets, like you shadow example, help with depth perception for clearance.

The opposite problem would occur too. Once parked IFO my hangar without the 90 degree turn, as the adjacent hangar at Napa was open and had a bunch of people milling about. A lady in an SUV comes driving up right towards me, I had shut down but not opened the canopy. She clearly was not slowing and had not seen my wing. People in the hangar were screaming at her to stop - - and she did, just feet away. I could've used a defibrillator on myself if I'da had one handy.

I always hung orange steamers on the wingtips when parked on the ramp. Cord, lead weight, fluorescent tapes.

bumper

[Dan Marotta]

On 5/24/2017 10:13 PM, bumper wrote:
> <snip>
> I always hung orange steamers on the wingtips when parked on the ramp. Cord, lead weight, fluorescent tapes.
>
> bumper
>
Now THAT is a capital idea!

--
Dan, 5J

[JS]

On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 7:44:03 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> On 5/24/2017 10:13 PM, bumper wrote:
> > <snip>
> > I always hung orange steamers on the wingtips when parked on the ramp. Cord, lead weight, fluorescent tapes.
> >
> > bumper
> >
> Now THAT is a capital idea!
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

Bumper, it could be proprietary Mk-V Kiddie Car Quiet Vent information, but....
How do you steam an orange?
Jim