O2 and

[Quietpilot]

Bouncing off a comment from another thread.

> a number of we "not in our 40s anymore" pilots are setting the O2 to kick in at 5000 msl.
>
> O2 is cheap. Clarity of mind at altitude - priceless!
>

Being in the middle of my 40s myself. I recall spending time periodically in various smoke filled rooms when I was younger before the attacks on tobacco set laws in motion. Although I didn't smoke myself, the 2nd hand effects were noticeable even then. Do people who set their O2 to start at 5kmsl think environmental factors were important or just adjusting to the requirements of age in the interest of safety? I start feeling the need about 12kmsl and set it at 10K

O2 cheap? Perhaps in Hobbs, in the midwest all I get are weird looks. I have had an empty tank for years but would like to take the fiberglass stallion somewhere more dynamic eventually and not have to hunt for 02 once there.

Curiously

[Ron Gleason]

On Friday, 19 May 2017 09:20:36 UTC-6, quietpilot wrote:
> Bouncing off a comment from another thread.
>
> > a number of we "not in our 40s anymore" pilots are setting the O2 to kick in at 5000 msl.
> >
> > O2 is cheap. Clarity of mind at altitude - priceless!
> >
>
> Being in the middle of my 40s myself. I recall spending time periodically in various smoke filled rooms when I was younger before the attacks on tobacco set laws in motion. Although I didn't smoke myself, the 2nd hand effects were noticeable even then. Do people who set their O2 to start at 5kmsl think environmental factors were important or just adjusting to the requirements of age in the interest of safety? I start feeling the need about 12kmsl and set it at 10K
>
> O2 cheap? Perhaps in Hobbs, in the midwest all I get are weird looks. I have had an empty tank for years but would like to take the fiberglass stallion somewhere more dynamic eventually and not have to hunt for 02 once there.
>
> Curiously

There are various resources to learn about 2nd hand smoke and your lungs repairing them selves, one is here https://quitday.org/quitting-effects/ I am not a doctor but...

Most FBO's have O2 and the price will vary. You can also use a dive shop, welding shop, or a company like Praxair. Your mileage and costs will vary.

One other thing you can try is to get a Oximeter and measure the amount of saturated O2 while you are flying. They are inexpensive http://www.pulseoximeter.org/ and can provide you a baseline before, during and after flying. During the winter I work Ski Patrol at the local ski area and we use these alot when folks either hurt themselves or exhibit signs of altitude sickness.

Ignore the other folks, use O2 if you are more comfortable

[gkemp]

On Friday, May 19, 2017 at 8:20:36 AM UTC-7, quietpilot wrote:
> Bouncing off a comment from another thread.
>
> > a number of we "not in our 40s anymore" pilots are setting the O2 to kick in at 5000 msl.
> >
> > O2 is cheap. Clarity of mind at altitude - priceless!
> >
>
> Being in the middle of my 40s myself. I recall spending time periodically in various smoke filled rooms when I was younger before the attacks on tobacco set laws in motion. Although I didn't smoke myself, the 2nd hand effects were noticeable even then. Do people who set their O2 to start at 5kmsl think environmental factors were important or just adjusting to the requirements of age in the interest of safety? I start feeling the need about 12kmsl and set it at 10K
>
> O2 cheap? Perhaps in Hobbs, in the midwest all I get are weird looks. I have had an empty tank for years but would like to take the fiberglass stallion somewhere more dynamic eventually and not have to hunt for 02 once there.
>
> Curiously

I remember reading an air force study some years ago where they found reduced judgement in their pilots at 5000 feet. I started using oxygen from 5K from then on.

Gary Kemp (NK)

[Duster]

> I remember reading an air force study some years ago where they found reduced judgement in their pilots at 5000 feet. I started using oxygen from 5K from then on.
>
> Gary Kemp (NK)

Do you have a reference for that study?

[Quietpilot]

On Friday, May 19, 2017 at 12:29:50 PM UTC-5, Duster wrote:
> > I remember reading an air force study some years ago where they found reduced judgement in their pilots at 5000 feet. I started using oxygen from 5K from then on.
> >
> > Gary Kemp (NK)
>
> Do you have a reference for that study?

looking for that study I found this one.

https://www.ndcn.ox.ac.uk/news/aviation-study-shows-lower-air-pressure-leads-to-higher-blood-pressure-in-the-lungs

[Frank Whiteley]

On Friday, May 19, 2017 at 11:29:50 AM UTC-6, Duster wrote:
> > I remember reading an air force study some years ago where they found reduced judgement in their pilots at 5000 feet. I started using oxygen from 5K from then on.
> >
> > Gary Kemp (NK)
>
> Do you have a reference for that study?

https://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pilotsafetybrochures/media/pilot_vision.pdf is primarily related to night vision (supplemental O2 above 5000MSL) but also have information regarding smoking effects. However, you may find that if you run and ride bikes frequently for moderate distances, you may find no noticeable effects well above the required O2 altitude. But, this is a double-edged problem which may be better understood by taking a flight physiology course and chamber ride. I tend to become rather euphoric at FL250 without O2 after five minutes, so that can mask other symptoms of hypoxia with a false sense of well-being which could lead to taking wrong decisions about the immediate situation.

Here in Colorado, my EDS is set for 10,000 MSL as the gliderport is 5500MSL..

YMMV,

Frank Whiteley

[jfitch]

On Friday, May 19, 2017 at 10:21:03 AM UTC-7, gkemp wrote:
> On Friday, May 19, 2017 at 8:20:36 AM UTC-7, quietpilot wrote:
> > Bouncing off a comment from another thread.
> >
> > > a number of we "not in our 40s anymore" pilots are setting the O2 to kick in at 5000 msl.
> > >
> > > O2 is cheap. Clarity of mind at altitude - priceless!
> > >
> >
> > Being in the middle of my 40s myself. I recall spending time periodically in various smoke filled rooms when I was younger before the attacks on tobacco set laws in motion. Although I didn't smoke myself, the 2nd hand effects were noticeable even then. Do people who set their O2 to start at 5kmsl think environmental factors were important or just adjusting to the requirements of age in the interest of safety? I start feeling the need about 12kmsl and set it at 10K
> >
> > O2 cheap? Perhaps in Hobbs, in the midwest all I get are weird looks. I have had an empty tank for years but would like to take the fiberglass stallion somewhere more dynamic eventually and not have to hunt for 02 once there.
> >
> > Curiously
>
> I remember reading an air force study some years ago where they found reduced judgement in their pilots at 5000 feet. I started using oxygen from 5K from then on.
>
> Gary Kemp (NK)

Flying at Truckee, I would need to turn on the oxygen on the drive to the gliderport, since the pass is 7200 msl and the runway is 5900 msl.

Also the answer must surely depend on aclimatization: going from sea level to 12,000 in an hour is different than your second or third day living at 5900 ft and going to 12,000.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Friday, May 19, 2017 at 12:18:01 PM UTC-6, jfitch wrote:
> On Friday, May 19, 2017 at 10:21:03 AM UTC-7, gkemp wrote:
> > On Friday, May 19, 2017 at 8:20:36 AM UTC-7, quietpilot wrote:
> > > Bouncing off a comment from another thread.
> > >
> > > > a number of we "not in our 40s anymore" pilots are setting the O2 to kick in at 5000 msl.
> > > >
> > > > O2 is cheap. Clarity of mind at altitude - priceless!
> > > >
> > >
> > > Being in the middle of my 40s myself. I recall spending time periodically in various smoke filled rooms when I was younger before the attacks on tobacco set laws in motion. Although I didn't smoke myself, the 2nd hand effects were noticeable even then. Do people who set their O2 to start at 5kmsl think environmental factors were important or just adjusting to the requirements of age in the interest of safety? I start feeling the need about 12kmsl and set it at 10K
> > >
> > > O2 cheap? Perhaps in Hobbs, in the midwest all I get are weird looks. I have had an empty tank for years but would like to take the fiberglass stallion somewhere more dynamic eventually and not have to hunt for 02 once there.
> > >
> > > Curiously
> >
> > I remember reading an air force study some years ago where they found reduced judgement in their pilots at 5000 feet. I started using oxygen from 5K from then on.
> >
> > Gary Kemp (NK)
>
> Flying at Truckee, I would need to turn on the oxygen on the drive to the gliderport, since the pass is 7200 msl and the runway is 5900 msl.
>
> Also the answer must surely depend on aclimatization: going from sea level to 12,000 in an hour is different than your second or third day living at 5900 ft and going to 12,000.

Agreed YMMV.

Back in 1984, I requested organized a civilian chamber ride at Beale AFB for the upcoming PASCO wave camp. During the FL250 decompression, the younger (by at least 10 years) man next to me was to remove his mask as we did it in alternates so we could assist if necessary. He mentioned that he'd been partying in the Bay Area for a couple of days and nights and had little or no rest. Within one minute, he was completely unconscious and rigid from head to tow, like a plank. Only the back of his head and his heels were touching the seat and floor. I put his mask back on and it took a full five minutes for him to regain consciousness. With my mask off, I did all the puzzles and wanted to keep my mask off until I noticed something as I felt just fine and perhaps a little euphoric. I was clearly convinced there was a wide variation in individual response after that experience.

Frank Whiteley

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

There is a wide variation in of hypoxia from person to person and possibly from day to day in the same person. I had an explosive decompression at 22,000 ft 15 years ago and I had headache for a day, never did have the time to put on the O2 mask, and started an emergency decent immediately to 12,000 ft which was the altitude I flew home without O2. I had, around the same time frame, an O2 malfunction in my glider, spent much of the day at 17,500 with no ill effects. Yet another day at a region 12 contest (remember those) I had obvious signs of hypoxia, even to me, when the flight never got higher than 16,500 and I had a working O2 system. I suspect on the last one I had a kink in the O2 line as once on the ground my thought process cleared up and I tested the O2 system, worked fine. Flew next day with no problems.

I live at sea level and have decided to go on O2 at 10,000 ft. Have not tested my high altitude no O2 capabilities lately, thank goodness. However, about four or five years ago I started doing Bikram yoga daily, which starts and ends with a breathing exercise. I found after about six months of Bikram on my thrice weakling 1.5 mile swims I had changed my breathing from every stroke to every third stroke! My heart rate is also considerably lower, might have some effect.


On Friday, May 19, 2017 at 11:43:20 AM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> On Friday, May 19, 2017 at 12:18:01 PM UTC-6, jfitch wrote:
> > On Friday, May 19, 2017 at 10:21:03 AM UTC-7, gkemp wrote:
> > > On Friday, May 19, 2017 at 8:20:36 AM UTC-7, quietpilot wrote:
> > > > Bouncing off a comment from another thread.
> > > >
> > > > > a number of we "not in our 40s anymore" pilots are setting the O2 to kick in at 5000 msl.
> > > > >
> > > > > O2 is cheap. Clarity of mind at altitude - priceless!
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Being in the middle of my 40s myself. I recall spending time periodically in various smoke filled rooms when I was younger before the attacks on tobacco set laws in motion. Although I didn't smoke myself, the 2nd hand effects were noticeable even then. Do people who set their O2 to start at 5kmsl think environmental factors were important or just adjusting to the requirements of age in the interest of safety? I start feeling the need about 12kmsl and set it at 10K
> > > >
> > > > O2 cheap? Perhaps in Hobbs, in the midwest all I get are weird looks. I have had an empty tank for years but would like to take the fiberglass stallion somewhere more dynamic eventually and not have to hunt for 02 once there.
> > > >
> > > > Curiously
> > >
> > > I remember reading an air force study some years ago where they found reduced judgement in their pilots at 5000 feet. I started using oxygen from 5K from then on.
> > >
> > > Gary Kemp (NK)
> >
> > Flying at Truckee, I would need to turn on the oxygen on the drive to the gliderport, since the pass is 7200 msl and the runway is 5900 msl.
> >
> > Also the answer must surely depend on aclimatization: going from sea level to 12,000 in an hour is different than your second or third day living at 5900 ft and going to 12,000.
>
> Agreed YMMV.
>
> Back in 1984, I requested organized a civilian chamber ride at Beale AFB for the upcoming PASCO wave camp. During the FL250 decompression, the younger (by at least 10 years) man next to me was to remove his mask as we did it in alternates so we could assist if necessary. He mentioned that he'd been partying in the Bay Area for a couple of days and nights and had little or no rest. Within one minute, he was completely unconscious and rigid from head to tow, like a plank. Only the back of his head and his heels were touching the seat and floor. I put his mask back on and it took a full five minutes for him to regain consciousness. With my mask off, I did all the puzzles and wanted to keep my mask off until I noticed something as I felt just fine and perhaps a little euphoric. I was clearly convinced there was a wide variation in individual response after that experience.
>
> Frank Whiteley

[6PK]

On Friday, May 19, 2017 at 8:20:36 AM UTC-7, quietpilot wrote:
> Bouncing off a comment from another thread.
>
> > a number of we "not in our 40s anymore" pilots are setting the O2 to kick in at 5000 msl.
> >
> > O2 is cheap. Clarity of mind at altitude - priceless!
> >
>
> Being in the middle of my 40s myself. I recall spending time periodically in various smoke filled rooms when I was younger before the attacks on tobacco set laws in motion. Although I didn't smoke myself, the 2nd hand effects were noticeable even then. Do people who set their O2 to start at 5kmsl think environmental factors were important or just adjusting to the requirements of age in the interest of safety? I start feeling the need about 12kmsl and set it at 10K
>
> O2 cheap? Perhaps in Hobbs, in the midwest all I get are weird looks. I have had an empty tank for years but would like to take the fiberglass stallion somewhere more dynamic eventually and not have to hunt for 02 once there.
>
> Curiously

Getting to be an old timer; my take on o2 is that it is cheap insurance to have it turn on at 5000msl, specially with the EDS system.
Not to speak of the fact that with this system one really would use very little oxygen at this altitude or even at 10000msl for the matter effect.
I would strongly recommend to any age level to do the same.

[Duster]

Mr. Cloud,
17,500 ft alt all day and no ill effects? I made a similar claim in a shorter altitude chamber run once, but was convinced otherwise after the tech showed me the acuity test results.

ATC audio of a pilot at a higher altitude.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGdYb2J6Wbk


"Unable to control altitude
Unable to control airspeed
Unable to control heading
Other than that, everything A-OK!"

yea, sure

[AS]

On Friday, May 19, 2017 at 11:20:36 AM UTC-4, quietpilot wrote:
> Bouncing off a comment from another thread.
>
> > a number of we "not in our 40s anymore" pilots are setting the O2 to kick in at 5000 msl.
> >
> > O2 is cheap. Clarity of mind at altitude - priceless!
> >
>
> Being in the middle of my 40s myself. I recall spending time periodically in various smoke filled rooms when I was younger before the attacks on tobacco set laws in motion. Although I didn't smoke myself, the 2nd hand effects were noticeable even then. Do people who set their O2 to start at 5kmsl think environmental factors were important or just adjusting to the requirements of age in the interest of safety? I start feeling the need about 12kmsl and set it at 10K
>
> O2 cheap? Perhaps in Hobbs, in the midwest all I get are weird looks. I have had an empty tank for years but would like to take the fiberglass stallion somewhere more dynamic eventually and not have to hunt for 02 once there.
>
> Curiously

Don't skimp on O2! I flew the Sports Class Nats in Parowan a number of years ago in my H301. It had an A8A which needs to be adjusted for altitude manually. Since I had only a small tank for weight reasons, I turned the O2 on and off as I dipped below 12k ft. I made it home w/o problems but when I got out of the ship and pushed the old gal towards the trailer, I developed a splitting headache the likes I never experienced before. I put the glider in the cradle, donned the mask and turned on the O2 to max flow. I emptied the tank by taking deep breaths making sure not to hyper-ventilate. Within a few minutes, the headache was gone and I felt great again.
I can only recommend to take a high altitude physiological training session, aka high altitude chamber ride. I took mine in Dayton, OH but I think this chamber is no longer available.

Uli
'AS'

[Chris Rollings[_2_]]

At 01:09 20 May 2017, AS wrote:
>On Friday, May 19, 2017 at 11:20:36 AM UTC-4, quietpilot wrote:
>> Bouncing off a comment from another thread.
>>=20
>> > a number of we "not in our 40s anymore" pilots are setting the O2 to
>ki=
>ck in at 5000 msl. =20
>> >=20
>> > O2 is cheap. Clarity of mind at altitude - priceless!
>> >=20
>>=20
>> Being in the middle of my 40s myself. I recall spending time
>periodically=
> in various smoke filled rooms when I was younger before the attacks on
>tob=
>acco set laws in motion. Although I didn't smoke myself, the 2nd hand
>effec=
>ts were noticeable even then. Do people who set their O2 to start at
>5kmsl=
> think environmental factors were important or just adjusting to the
>requir=
>ements of age in the interest of safety? I start feeling the need about
>12=
>kmsl and set it at 10K =20
>>=20
>> O2 cheap? Perhaps in Hobbs, in the midwest all I get are weird looks. I
>h=
>ave had an empty tank for years but would like to take the fiberglass
>stall=
>ion somewhere more dynamic eventually and not have to hunt for 02 once
>ther=
>e.
>>=20
>> Curiously
>
>Don't skimp on O2! I flew the Sports Class Nats in Parowan a number of
>year=
>s ago in my H301. It had an A8A which needs to be adjusted for altitude
>man=
>ually. Since I had only a small tank for weight reasons, I turned the O2
>on=
> and off as I dipped below 12k ft. I made it home w/o problems but when I
>g=
>ot out of the ship and pushed the old gal towards the trailer, I
developed
>=
>a splitting headache the likes I never experienced before. I put the
>glider=
> in the cradle, donned the mask and turned on the O2 to max flow. I
>emptied=
> the tank by taking deep breaths making sure not to hyper-ventilate.
>Within=
> a few minutes, the headache was gone and I felt great again.
>I can only recommend to take a high altitude physiological training
>session=
>, aka high altitude chamber ride. I took mine in Dayton, OH but I think
>thi=
>s chamber is no longer available.
>
>Uli
>'AS'
>

My teaching is that lack of O2 is similar in its' effect to consumption of
alcohol:

Assuming you're acclimatised to around sea level.
10,000 ft = 1 pint of beer
20,000 ft = 1 bottle of wine
30,000 ft = 1 litre of extra strong (90% alcohol) Polish Vodka.

"Ah." you say, " But the effect of alcohol varies from one idividual to
another and from day to day even within one individual." True, so does the
effect of lack of Oxygen. And no, I've never drunk a litre of extra strong
Polish Vodka in one sesion.