a few more newbie's pre-purchase questions

[Ted Wagner]

a.. Flaps or no? (I'll be flying mostly in Arizona, more x-country than local.)
b.. Opinions on the Rigging Innovations P-124 emergency parachute system? (Yes, I know it's a ram-air parachute. I have much more experience on that kind of glider.) Mostly looking for feedback on comfort compared to other products.
c.. What is the most popular solution to the call-of-nature problem? (A topic conspicuously absent from the x/c portions of my (two) soaring books!) Are relief tubes offered in new(er) gliders? (No, this will not affect my choice of glider.)
d.. What is the best L/D of a laden swallow?
-ted

[Doug Hoffman]

Ted Wagner wrote:

Flaps or no? (I'll be flying mostly in Arizona, more x-country than local.)

Flaps pro: lower stall speed during landing, some performance increase
Flaps con: additional cockpit controls complexity and pilot workload


-Doug

[Ruud]

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 20:33:40 -0800, "Ted Wagner"
> wrote:

> a.. Flaps or no? (I'll be flying mostly in Arizona, more x-country than local.)
> b.. Opinions on the Rigging Innovations P-124 emergency parachute system? (Yes, I know it's a ram-air parachute. I have much more experience on that kind of glider.) Mostly looking for feedback on comfort compared to other products.
> c.. What is the most popular solution to the call-of-nature problem? (A topic conspicuously absent from the x/c portions of my (two) soaring books!) Are relief tubes offered in new(er) gliders? (No, this will not affect my choice of glider.)
> d.. What is the best L/D of a laden swallow?
>-ted

Have a look at http://www.soaravenal.com/diamond8.htm
NDH is very important.

Success!!

[Andy Durbin]

"Ted Wagner" > wrote in message >...
> a.. Flaps or no? (I'll be flying mostly in Arizona, more x-country
> than local.)
> b.. Opinions on the Rigging Innovations P-124 emergency parachute
> system? (Yes, I know it's a ram-air parachute. I have much more
> experience on that kind of glider.) Mostly looking for feedback on
> comfort compared to other products.
> c.. What is the most popular solution to the call-of-nature problem?
> (A topic conspicuously absent from the x/c portions of my (two) soaring
> books!) Are relief tubes offered in new(er) gliders? (No, this will not
> affect my choice of glider.)
> d.. What is the best L/D of a laden swallow?
> -ted
>
> --

Come to the ASA meeting tonight and you'll probably get answers on at
least 2 of these questions.

Hope to see you there.


Andy

[Bob Johnson]

I think Shelton's subtle point is that the claim of NDH is sometimes
misleading, as evidenced by Pez's new ship with the mis-matched wings
and bent tail.

BJ

Ruud wrote:
>
> On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 20:33:40 -0800, "Ted Wagner"
> > wrote:
>
> > a.. Flaps or no? (I'll be flying mostly in Arizona, more x-country than local.)
> > b.. Opinions on the Rigging Innovations P-124 emergency parachute system? (Yes, I know it's a ram-air parachute. I have much more experience on that kind of glider.) Mostly looking for feedback on comfort compared to other products.
> > c.. What is the most popular solution to the call-of-nature problem? (A topic conspicuously absent from the x/c portions of my (two) soaring books!) Are relief tubes offered in new(er) gliders? (No, this will not affect my choice of glider.)
> > d.. What is the best L/D of a laden swallow?
> >-ted
>
> Have a look at http://www.soaravenal.com/diamond8.htm
> NDH is very important.
>
> Success!!

[Bruce Hoult]

In article >, Bob Johnson >
wrote:

> I think Shelton's subtle point is that the claim of NDH is sometimes
> misleading, as evidenced by Pez's new ship with the mis-matched wings
> and bent tail.

That one only had NDH because it had NH at all...

-- Bruce

[Kirk Stant]

"Ted Wagner" > wrote in message >...
> a.. Flaps or no? (I'll be flying mostly in Arizona, more x-country
> than local.)
> b.. Opinions on the Rigging Innovations P-124 emergency parachute
> system? (Yes, I know it's a ram-air parachute. I have much more
> experience on that kind of glider.) Mostly looking for feedback on
> comfort compared to other products.
> c.. What is the most popular solution to the call-of-nature problem?
> (A topic conspicuously absent from the x/c portions of my (two) soaring
> books!) Are relief tubes offered in new(er) gliders? (No, this will not
> affect my choice of glider.)
> d.. What is the best L/D of a laden swallow?
> -ted
>
> --

African or European?

They have flaps, by the way - no Standard Class for mother nature!

Pee tubes are popular, followed by various baggies or containers
(Gatorade bottles work just fine in a 1-34, but not at all in an LS6,
BTW - cockpit ergonomics is a critical factor here). Not something to
be taken lightly; a well engineered solution will absolutely be the
difference between a fun flight and misery - been there!

We seem to have a pretty even split on flaps vs no-flaps in the ASA,
not a lot of performance difference; some more maintenance with flaps
and more to screw up inflight, but also fun to learn to use properly -
makes for a "busy" cockpit inflight, which I personally enjoy.
Possible exceptions are 90 degree flap ships such as Pik-20, 1-35,
HPs; neat for landouts, most owners love them, some I know never got
used to them.

Given similar costs, condition, performance, and availabiliy (for a
used Std and 15M ship), the trailer is probably more important!

Kirk
Flaps and loving them

[Ted Wagner]

I'd love to come to the ASA meeting tonight but alas I work in Lost Angels,
the Big Wheezy. Only get to grace my home state on the weekends ...

> Come to the ASA meeting tonight and you'll probably get answers on at
> least 2 of these questions.
>
> Hope to see you there.
>
>
> Andy

[Tony Verhulst]

> Pee tubes are popular, followed by various baggies or containers
> (Gatorade bottles work just fine in a 1-34, but not at all in an LS6

I've been using Gatorade bottles in my LS6 but I want to get away from
that. I had a full pee bottle bounce off of the top of the canopy once
(yes, from the inside) and I don't want that to happen again. It was
pretty violent and I have no idea why the canopy didn't crack.

Tony V.
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING

[Tim Ward]

"Ted Wagner" > wrote in message
...
a.. Flaps or no? (I'll be flying mostly in Arizona, more x-country than
local.)
b.. Opinions on the Rigging Innovations P-124 emergency parachute system?
(Yes, I know it's a ram-air parachute. I have much more experience on that
kind of glider.) Mostly looking for feedback on comfort compared to other
products.
c.. What is the most popular solution to the call-of-nature problem? (A
topic conspicuously absent from the x/c portions of my (two) soaring books!)
Are relief tubes offered in new(er) gliders? (No, this will not affect my
choice of glider.)
d.. What is the best L/D of a laden swallow?
-ted

African or European?

Tim Ward

[Stewart Kissel]

At 15:42 27 January 2004, Tim Ward wrote:
>
>'Ted Wagner' wrote in message
...
> a.. Flaps or no? (I'll be flying mostly in Arizona,
>more x-country than
>local.)

Flaps or not may not be as significant as it once was.
I am a flaps guy, but if I had a choice between a
sweet LS4 with a good trailer, and a rough LS3 with
a cruddy trailer- I would take the 4 in a heartbeat.
A cruddy trailer will make rigging miserable.

> c.. What is the most popular solution to the call-of-nature
>problem?

If you plan on flying in Arizona in the summer, you
better have a system that works! KS had an article
on this somewhere. Texas Catheter system can be very
much a hands-off system if designed properly.
>

[Bob Kuykendall]

Earlier, "Ted Wagner" > wrote:

> a.. Flaps or no? (I'll be flying mostly
> in Arizona, more x-country than local.)

I like to think of it as "airbrakes or no". But let's not open that
can of worms today. :)

> c.. What is the most popular solution
> to the call-of-nature problem?

That Depends... :)

I believe that the usual choices are:

Men: external catheters, zip-lock baggies, plastic bottles, diapers

Women: diapers, awkward-looking funnels

And some folks wonder why there are so few women in our sport.

This might be TMI, but before a long flight I tape the zipper of a
zip-lock baggie so it's mostly closed, and then tape a PVC pipe elbow
fitting into the remaining opening. I prefer the heavy-duty freezer
baggies. The baggie is generally more conformal than a bottle, and the
elbow fitting helps solve the "uphill start" problem.

Some folks have elaborate overboard dump tubes that they extend out of
the belly of their glider so that they can pour overboard without
getting pee on the glider. This is more than an aesthetic concern,
since the pee is corrosive and often gets drawn into the landing gear
well where it can corrode the metal undercarriage parts.

Bob K.

[OscarCVox]

> c.. What is the most popular solution
>> to the call-of-nature problem?
>

One tip I learned the hard way- try it on the ground first!! If your solution
is not leakproof it is better to find out when you can leap out of the cockpit
rather than at 6000ft
Once you start it is very difficult to stop and it is very uncomfortable
sitting a pudddle for 5 hrs
Nigel

[Herbert Kilian]

Ted,

Regarding c):
Forget about 'relief tubes' that end outside the glider unless you
attach the trailing end to your gear door. This also requires you to
extend the gear before letting go. Even then I'd be concerned that the
pee will make its way along the fuselage and end up corroding your
rudder hinges and cables.
Get a dozen or two 'external male catheters' (the friendly girl at the
medical supplies place will help you find the right size. Careful,
they laugh when you go for extra large and small sizes. Next you ask
for the large pee bag with check valve on the infeed and manual dump
valve on the out. It comes with a silicon tube around 2 feet long.
The bag and tube can be used repeatedly, I rinse mine, though.
I'll spare you the details of putting it all together... Seriously,
this is an absolute MUST on most every flight, don't leave the airport
area without it.

Herb, J7

"Ted Wagner" > wrote in message >...
> a.. Flaps or no? (I'll be flying mostly in Arizona, more x-country
> than local.)
> b.. Opinions on the Rigging Innovations P-124 emergency parachute
> system? (Yes, I know it's a ram-air parachute. I have much more
> experience on that kind of glider.) Mostly looking for feedback on
> comfort compared to other products.
> c.. What is the most popular solution to the call-of-nature problem?
> (A topic conspicuously absent from the x/c portions of my (two) soaring
> books!) Are relief tubes offered in new(er) gliders? (No, this will not
> affect my choice of glider.)
> d.. What is the best L/D of a laden swallow?
> -ted
>
> --

[Mark James Boyd]

Tony Verhulst > wrote:
>
>> Pee tubes are popular, followed by various baggies or containers
>> (Gatorade bottles work just fine in a 1-34, but not at all in an LS6

Pee tubes with the cutout thing at the end that looks like half
a turkey baster are great. Without the encloser at the end, any
mishandling of the stick can result in buying a new map.

I know one guy who just wears Depends. He says it's both
for relief and when he does something that scares himself (haha).
Maybe this would work for the gals, too.

Bags are nasty and leaky. Even the ones with that adsorbent
gel stuff are gross and messy...

[Shawn Curry]

Mark James Boyd wrote:

> Tony Verhulst > wrote:
>
>>>Pee tubes are popular, followed by various baggies or containers
>>>(Gatorade bottles work just fine in a 1-34, but not at all in an LS6
>
>
> Pee tubes with the cutout thing at the end that looks like half
> a turkey baster are great. Without the encloser at the end, any
> mishandling of the stick can result in buying a new map.
>
> I know one guy who just wears Depends. He says it's both
> for relief and when he does something that scares himself (haha).
> Maybe this would work for the gals, too.
>
> Bags are nasty and leaky. Even the ones with that adsorbent
> gel stuff are gross and messy...

Bombs Away! No mess, fertilize the forest, and the bags are
photodegradable.

Shawn

[Stewart Kissel]

>
>Bombs Away! No mess, fertilize the forest, and the
>bags are
>photodegradable.
>
>Shawn

I'll remember that next time I am 2 miles out from
straight in landing on Salida 24, better have a strong
umbrella Shawn :)

If you do choose to go the Texas catheter route, use
a velcro strap for securing. Those adhesive ones are
very OOWWEEE when being removed.
>

[Shawn Curry]

Stewart Kissel wrote:

>>Bombs Away! No mess, fertilize the forest, and the
>>bags are
>>photodegradable.
>>
>>Shawn
>
>
> I'll remember that next time I am 2 miles out from
> straight in landing on Salida 24, better have a strong
> umbrella Shawn :)

"Ain't no luck, I learned to duck."
>
> If you do choose to go the Texas catheter route, use
> a velcro strap for securing. Those adhesive ones are
> very OOWWEEE when being removed.

Makes ya wonder about Texas.

[Eric Greenwell]

Bob Kuykendall wrote:

>
> Some folks have elaborate overboard dump tubes that they extend out of
> the belly of their glider so that they can pour overboard without
> getting pee on the glider. This is more than an aesthetic concern,
> since the pee is corrosive and often gets drawn into the landing gear
> well where it can corrode the metal undercarriage parts.

Or worse: it corrodes the rudder hinges and cables. The successful
systems aren't really elaborate (it's just a tube sliding through a
tube), but are long enough to extend away from the glider. Some do it by
having the end of the tube at the back, rear, bottom corner of an
extended gear door (requires the gear to be partially extended in use);
some use a stiff tube that is pushed out the belly, which gets the pee
far enough from the glider it doesn't land on it. It's best to look at a
successful system for guidance, so you can avoid potential corrosion
problems.

--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[robert]

In our club in hot Aussie conditions, the CFI and his mob will discus
matters with you, if you take off without adequate water, a hat and a relief
system. The drop off in pilot performance due to dehydration is dramatic and
has been attributed to many accident. We have professional colour charts in
the toilets warning of the risks. The volume of water carried for drinking
on a long flight in hot conditions is amazing. Food is another seperate
issue that hopefully someone might like to start a new thread.

The "****a phone" to the outside is great and perhaps a internal comtainer
syastem. You must ensure secure fitting as corrosion is an issue. So is the
little yellow crysals during negative G manouvers. Yes it has happened to
me.

Wine cask bladders with a suitable valve are Ok for ergonomically suitable
gliders and people. The cut off disposable petrol filters work great with
suitable sanding to a smooth surface.

Catheters (called in our club Irish Condoms due to the hole in the end )
work well.

All of these though are best tried on the ground or at home, so troubles are
sorted ot beforehand.

Good soaring
Robert

[Mark James Boyd]

robert > wrote:
>In our club in hot Aussie conditions, the CFI and his mob will discus
>matters with you, if you take off without adequate water, a hat and a relief
>system. The drop off in pilot performance due to dehydration is dramatic and
>has been attributed to many accident. We have professional colour charts in

One of our local examiners thinks dehydration is the #1 most important
"medical factor" in glider flying. He (and I) believe a LOT
more accidents are caused by dehydration induced poor judgement
than the fraction of accident reports indicate.

I personally LOVE those little camelback things. I buy them without
the canvas bag, since the plastic bag itself seems very sturdy.
The Army used to prescribe 12 quarts a day during heavy exertion,
so I'm guessing 2-4 quarts for 4-8 hours of flight would be ok.
I drank three quarts during my 5 hour silver duration...

[Jason Payne]

As a pilot with ~100 hours, I really dont find the flaps that big of a
nusance, but the performance increase seems to offset the complexity.

Just think of them as a giant trim tab, forward to go fast, back to go
slow...


"Doug Hoffman" > wrote in message
...
> Ted Wagner wrote:
>
> Flaps or no? (I'll be flying mostly in Arizona, more x-country than
local.)
>
> Flaps pro: lower stall speed during landing, some performance increase
> Flaps con: additional cockpit controls complexity and pilot workload
>
>
> -Doug
>

[Doug Hoffman]

Jason Payne wrote:

> As a pilot with ~100 hours, I really dont find the flaps that big of a
> nusance, but the performance increase seems to offset the complexity.
>
> Just think of them as a giant trim tab, forward to go fast, back to go
> slow...

No argument here, Jason. I started with flaps after only 20 hours of flying
*anything*. And my ship has no spoilers. Just 90 degree flaps for landing.
I don't find the increase in workload to be an issue. Btw, I've *never* had
my spoilers accidentally pop open or fail to connect upon assembly. ;-)

-Doug


> "Doug Hoffman" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Ted Wagner wrote:
>>
>> Flaps or no? (I'll be flying mostly in Arizona, more x-country than
> local.)
>>
>> Flaps pro: lower stall speed during landing, some performance increase
>> Flaps con: additional cockpit controls complexity and pilot workload
>>
>>
>> -Doug
>>
>
>