View Full Version : Letter to the FAA
Walt Connelly
May 23rd 17, 09:34 PM
Before I send my letter to the FAA I'd like to ask if anyone has ever attempted to get them to see the light and end the use of Schweizer hooks on tow planes here in the land of the free and the home of the brave. It is a well known fact and clearly stated in the SSA/SSF and FAA circulars and literature that under certain conditions (the exact condition that the tow pilot will need to release) that it can be near impossible to release the glider. Tow planes have crashed, lives have been lost and at the same time everyone knows that this is a dangerous situation.
Along with the conversion to Tost hooks I'd like to see it made mandatory that the release handles be up high, near the throttle and quickly available to the tow pilot with adequate mechanical advantage. I can assure you that one does not have the time to go ducking and reaching and feeling for a handle down on the floor of a Pawnee while the glider kites in back of you.
The idea of requiring nose hooks on all gliders does not seem to be feasible although it has been brought up to me as something that needs to be addressed. My understanding is that the CG hook is meant for ground/winch launch operations, however I have probably done thousands of CG hook aero tows with no problem. For the most part these are ships being flown by the best and most aware pilots. I'd like more input from experience pilots on this point.
I currently have a number of highly experienced pilots from all levels of aviation in agreement with me and willing to help me in this cause.
If one life is saved as a result of this endeavor then it will be well worth it.
Walt Connelly
My mom is going to write the FAA asking that all gliding activity be ended here in the land of the free and the home of the not so
brave. If one child's life is saved as a result of this endeavor then it will be well worth it.
Gregg- Thank God for your Mom!
Of course, I would willingly give up my freedom if ONE CHILD'S life could be saved.
For those of you that don't know me, YES. That was sarcasm.
But I do agree that Schweizer releases are prone to failure.
Walt- If you want to get them banned, tell the FAA that they are being installed on (gasp!) DRONES! That's about all the FAA is concerned with right now.
On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 5:43:10 PM UTC-7, Walt Connelly wrote:
> Before I send my letter to the FAA I'd like to ask if anyone has ever
> attempted to get them to see the light and end the use of Schweizer
> hooks on tow planes here in the land of the free and the home of the
> brave. It is a well known fact and clearly stated in the SSA/SSF and
> FAA circulars and literature that under certain conditions (the exact
> condition that the tow pilot will need to release) that it can be near
> impossible to release the glider. Tow planes have crashed, lives have
> been lost and at the same time everyone knows that this is a dangerous
> situation.
>
> Along with the conversion to Tost hooks I'd like to see it made
> mandatory that the release handles be up high, near the throttle and
> quickly available to the tow pilot with adequate mechanical advantage. I
> can assure you that one does not have the time to go ducking and
> reaching and feeling for a handle down on the floor of a Pawnee while
> the glider kites in back of you.
>
> The idea of requiring nose hooks on all gliders does not seem to be
> feasible although it has been brought up to me as something that needs
> to be addressed. My understanding is that the CG hook is meant for
> ground/winch launch operations, however I have probably done thousands
> of CG hook aero tows with no problem. For the most part these are ships
> being flown by the best and most aware pilots. I'd like more input from
> experience pilots on this point.
>
> I currently have a number of highly experienced pilots from all levels
> of aviation in agreement with me and willing to help me in this cause.
>
>
> If one life is saved as a result of this endeavor then it will be well
> worth it.
>
> Walt Connelly
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly
Walt,
I know of at least one fatality (Ephrata) involving exactly this scenario - if the FAA were going to take action they already would have done so. Invariably, there is some other precursor that led to the accident that they find fault with. You may get some sympathy from an investigator, but probably no action. It just impacts so few pilots.
Tom
Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas
May 24th 17, 04:28 AM
Walt,
Please don't write a letter to the FAA.
I understand your good intentions and valid points but asking the FAA to condemn Schweizer releases and make Tost tow release installations mandatory may ground 90% of our towplanes if and when the design and installation engineering is approved for our many different towplanes.
Not all towplanes are Pawnees. For example, moving the tow release handle in my Cessna 182 towplane up by the throttle would be problematic if not impossible.
What is needed to be emphasized is proper and RECURRENT training of glider pilots to stay just a bit above the wake on tow (which places the glider pilots' sight picture of the towplane above the horizon, higher than most pilots would think until they try it) to prevent many "kiting" incidents.
Since 1967 I have done thousands of tows in various towplanes and have only had one kiting incident in which I was able to react quickly and release using a Schweizer hook. (The glider pilot also released just after I did and we never found the rope, a small price to pay thanks to our training and prompt reactions to the situation.) Training to fly a proper tow position is essential for the glider pilot.
Please don't write that letter to the FAA.
They would likely over-react and ground my towplanes for a year!
Hopefully they will ask you to document the number of crashes and lives lost due to the Schweizer hook against the number of aerotows made with a Schweizer hook since the 1950's.
What if we eliminated canopies and just fly open-cockpit so we won't have that distraction of making sure the canopy is locked, often resulting in loss of control by the glider pilot, early on takeoff. After all, there is no "standard" locking mechanism on canopies on the various types of gliders. Must we alert the FAA to that?
We could ask the FAA to ban the use of tail dollies while moving gliders on the ground so the dollies could never be left attached for takeoff.
We could ask the FAA to ground all gliders that do not have "automatic control hookups" (which are not fool-proof.)
While we're at it, let's require medical certification for all glider pilots as there are many documented fatalities related to medical incapacitation.. Some foreign countries require medicals as well as wearing parachutes on every flight.
Instead of to the FAA, send your letter to the SSA Government Liaison committee headed by Steve Northcraft. Find his contact info on the SSA website. Again, you will need to document the number of crashes due to the Schweizer hook on towplanes. Show him the numbers.
You stated that we live "in the land of the free", so let's remain free of sweeping mandates and discuss a sensible solution within the worldwide glider community, the smart folks who understand, and live with, the problem.
Please consider not sending that letter to the FAA.
Burt
Marfa, Texas and elsewhere.
(I am speaking for myself and not for the Soaring Safety Foundation.)
Mike C
May 24th 17, 05:15 AM
On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 7:57:05 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> Gregg- Thank God for your Mom!
>
> Of course, I would willingly give up my freedom if ONE CHILD'S life could be saved.
>
> For those of you that don't know me, YES. That was sarcasm.
>
> But I do agree that Schweizer releases are prone to failure.
>
> Walt- If you want to get them banned, tell the FAA that they are being installed on (gasp!) DRONES! That's about all the FAA is concerned with right now.
Mark,
FYI a modeler took the FAA to court and the drone/model registration rule has been struck down. No more FAA model registration requirements and some of the garbage that it included.
http://www.wolfenstock.com/TaylorvFAA/TaylorFAAOpinion.pdf
Mike
On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 11:28:04 PM UTC-4, Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas wrote:
> Walt,
>
> Please don't write a letter to the FAA.
> I understand your good intentions and valid points but asking the FAA to condemn Schweizer releases and make Tost tow release installations mandatory may ground 90% of our towplanes if and when the design and installation engineering is approved for our many different towplanes.
>
> Not all towplanes are Pawnees. For example, moving the tow release handle in my Cessna 182 towplane up by the throttle would be problematic if not impossible.
>
> What is needed to be emphasized is proper and RECURRENT training of glider pilots to stay just a bit above the wake on tow (which places the glider pilots' sight picture of the towplane above the horizon, higher than most pilots would think until they try it) to prevent many "kiting" incidents.
>
> Since 1967 I have done thousands of tows in various towplanes and have only had one kiting incident in which I was able to react quickly and release using a Schweizer hook. (The glider pilot also released just after I did and we never found the rope, a small price to pay thanks to our training and prompt reactions to the situation.) Training to fly a proper tow position is essential for the glider pilot.
>
> Please don't write that letter to the FAA.
> They would likely over-react and ground my towplanes for a year!
>
> Hopefully they will ask you to document the number of crashes and lives lost due to the Schweizer hook against the number of aerotows made with a Schweizer hook since the 1950's.
>
> What if we eliminated canopies and just fly open-cockpit so we won't have that distraction of making sure the canopy is locked, often resulting in loss of control by the glider pilot, early on takeoff. After all, there is no "standard" locking mechanism on canopies on the various types of gliders.. Must we alert the FAA to that?
>
> We could ask the FAA to ban the use of tail dollies while moving gliders on the ground so the dollies could never be left attached for takeoff.
>
> We could ask the FAA to ground all gliders that do not have "automatic control hookups" (which are not fool-proof.)
>
> While we're at it, let's require medical certification for all glider pilots as there are many documented fatalities related to medical incapacitation. Some foreign countries require medicals as well as wearing parachutes on every flight.
>
> Instead of to the FAA, send your letter to the SSA Government Liaison committee headed by Steve Northcraft. Find his contact info on the SSA website. Again, you will need to document the number of crashes due to the Schweizer hook on towplanes. Show him the numbers.
>
> You stated that we live "in the land of the free", so let's remain free of sweeping mandates and discuss a sensible solution within the worldwide glider community, the smart folks who understand, and live with, the problem.
>
> Please consider not sending that letter to the FAA.
>
> Burt
> Marfa, Texas and elsewhere.
> (I am speaking for myself and not for the Soaring Safety Foundation.)
I completely agree with Burt.
UH
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
May 24th 17, 02:48 PM
Agreed, government is in our lives enough.
Also, what about any site that uses the inverted mount Schweitzer hook? Currently looks like the mount change "fixes" the kiting issue regarding release, but the letter may force those installations to spend money for no good reason.
I think I understand the original though Walt wants to fix, but there are better ways to fix it.
Heck, writing a letter saying that low tow may be better in general since there is a bigger window to recognize the problem and fix it before there is a safety issue. Most glider training books even recommend low tow for long tows, like aero retrieves. I already know how that discussion will go on RAS.
Yes, I do most of my flying at a site that uses low tow for the majority of aerotows, have been since the early 70's.
Andrew Ainslie
May 24th 17, 04:16 PM
The "We just need to train better" mantra doesn't always work. Every single one of us knows of a couple of people at our own airfield with dodgy skills, and it's always hard to just boot someone from a club, or ground them. Plus, the gliders most likely to kite are exactly the ones flown by the least experienced pilots - old crappy club ships.
My personal takeaway after reading these threads is simple - I personally will NEVER fly a schweitzer towhook plane with a C of G glider on tow unless I know that glider pilot very, very well and trust them deeply. Just not worth it. Maybe having tow-pilots vote with their feet is a good way to get clubs and private operations to do the right thing here.
And that might be a better cure than getting the FAA involved. Not that they're likely to listen anyway.
BobW
May 24th 17, 06:38 PM
> The "We just need to train better" mantra doesn't always work.
Indeed...by definition, nothing involving humans *can* be.
> Every single
> one of us knows of a couple of people at our own airfield with dodgy
> skills, and it's always hard to just boot someone from a club, or ground
> them. Plus, the gliders most likely to kite are exactly the ones flown by
> the least experienced pilots - old crappy club ships.
No general disagreement with any of the above from me.
> My personal takeaway after reading these threads is simple - I personally
> will NEVER fly a Schweizer towhook[ed tow]plane with a C of G glider on tow
> unless I know that glider pilot very, very well and trust them deeply. Just
> not worth it. Maybe having tow-pilots vote with their feet is a good way to
> get clubs and private operations to do the right thing here.
Aha! What a concept...applying/depending-upon individual judgment, I mean.
Occasionally even our government (not generally known for addressing
gummint-identified problems with anything other than the subtlety of swatting
flies with sledgehammers) is sufficiently sensible to turn a blind eye to some
of those imperfections...which (IMO) the kiting issue is.
> And that might be a better cure than getting the FAA involved. Not that
> they're likely to listen anyway.
I'll second that. Where's the polling place?
Bob W.
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com
I completely agree with gregg...
Have to agree with Burt here. Please don't write that letter.
Sean Fidler
May 24th 17, 11:34 PM
Walt, don't do it.
Dan Daly[_2_]
May 25th 17, 12:03 AM
On Wednesday, May 24, 2017 at 6:34:10 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Walt, don't do it.
I believe the FES (Discus 2, Lak-17B, Lak-19, Ventus 2 and 3) gliders only have C of G hooks, and they take tows... It would be a pity to exclude them from the sport in the US; they are a stepping-stone to electric self-launch for us all once the batteries get better.
son_of_flubber
May 25th 17, 02:22 AM
On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 8:43:10 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
> I currently have a number of highly experienced pilots from all levels
> of aviation in agreement with me and willing to help me in this cause.
Write the letter that presents your case with evidence. Get your supporters to sign it. Send it to everyone who aerotows gliders in the USA (both tug pilots and club officers). Ask them to add their names to the letter for a second mailing. Follow up with a phone call to determine who is still using Schweitzer tug hooks.
We have everything to gain when the USA Soaring Community steps up and self-regulates. We have a lot to lose if the FAA decides to step up regulation of soaring.
It is ultimately the Tug Pilot's responsibility to determine the suitability and airworthiness of their plane and tow hook. Tug pilots should decline to tow if they're not happy with the equipment or the pilot on either end of the tow rope.
Isn't there a tow hook available that releases the glider automatically if the angle goes over a certain degree when a glider gets well out of position? Makes sense to me that if the glider pilot cannot control their ship to the point where the tow pilot has run out of elevator control, that they are then immediately disconnected.
Perhaps this would be a better alternative than trying to create more rules..
If you do write the letter, I'd also like to add an earmark to this letter, that towplanes be IFR rated with turbine engines, Heads up Displays, Garmin G-1000's, autopilots, and smoke systems (to allow other aircraft to see them easily when they are descending back to the gliderport), .......๐ This should be MANDATORY!!
Or maybe just start winch launching and auto launching like the rest of the world does!
John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]
May 25th 17, 12:51 PM
On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 8:43:10 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
> Before I send my letter to the FAA I'd like to ask if anyone has ever
> attempted to get them to see the light and end the use of Schweizer
> hooks on tow planes here in the land of the free and the home of the
> brave. It is a well known fact and clearly stated in the SSA/SSF and
> FAA circulars and literature that under certain conditions (the exact
> condition that the tow pilot will need to release) that it can be near
> impossible to release the glider. Tow planes have crashed, lives have
> been lost and at the same time everyone knows that this is a dangerous
> situation.
>
> Along with the conversion to Tost hooks I'd like to see it made
> mandatory that the release handles be up high, near the throttle and
> quickly available to the tow pilot with adequate mechanical advantage. I
> can assure you that one does not have the time to go ducking and
> reaching and feeling for a handle down on the floor of a Pawnee while
> the glider kites in back of you.
>
> The idea of requiring nose hooks on all gliders does not seem to be
> feasible although it has been brought up to me as something that needs
> to be addressed. My understanding is that the CG hook is meant for
> ground/winch launch operations, however I have probably done thousands
> of CG hook aero tows with no problem. For the most part these are ships
> being flown by the best and most aware pilots. I'd like more input from
> experience pilots on this point.
>
> I currently have a number of highly experienced pilots from all levels
> of aviation in agreement with me and willing to help me in this cause.
>
>
> If one life is saved as a result of this endeavor then it will be well
> worth it.
>
> Walt Connelly
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly
I also agree with Burt.
On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 10:28:04 PM UTC-5, Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas wrote:
> Walt,
>
> Please don't write a letter to the FAA.
> I understand your good intentions and valid points but asking the FAA to condemn Schweizer releases and make Tost tow release installations mandatory may ground 90% of our towplanes if and when the design and installation engineering is approved for our many different towplanes.
>
I have been arguing with my club leadership for a while now that we should install a Tost hook on our Pawnee. That said, I absolutely agree with Burt on this. We already have enough mandates and plenty of people both outside and inside aviation who want ever more regulation. The "straw that broke the camel's back" and the "death of a thousand cuts" are real things. Please don't ask for more regulation! Education and rational persuasion are how things are (should be) done in a free society.
Sincerely,
Wallace Berry
WB
Self-regulation is a really good idea. So, Wallace and Burt (and the
others), how many of your tugs have Schweizer releases? What plans do
you have for replacing them with Tost - or, at least, inverting them?
In your own time, without FAA mandates, without bureaucratic
interference, without your tugs being grounded, during the slack season,
of your own 'self-regulating' free will?
No dates even pencilled in? Better write that letter, Walt.
--
GC
On 25/05/2017 22:13, WB wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 10:28:04 PM UTC-5, Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas wrote:
>> Walt,
>>
>> Please don't write a letter to the FAA.
>> I understand your good intentions and valid points but asking the FAA to condemn Schweizer releases and make Tost tow release installations mandatory may ground 90% of our towplanes if and when the design and installation engineering is approved for our many different towplanes.
>>
>
>
> I have been arguing with my club leadership for a while now that we should install a Tost hook on our Pawnee. That said, I absolutely agree with Burt on this. We already have enough mandates and plenty of people both outside and inside aviation who want ever more regulation. The "straw that broke the camel's back" and the "death of a thousand cuts" are real things. Please don't ask for more regulation! Education and rational persuasion are how things are (should be) done in a free society.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Wallace Berry
> WB
Jonathan St. Cloud
May 25th 17, 02:14 PM
Gee, what could go wrong by asking the FAA to get involved...remember the whole Bob Hoover saga?
On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 5:13:03 AM UTC-7, WB wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 10:28:04 PM UTC-5, Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas wrote:
> > Walt,
> >
> > Please don't write a letter to the FAA.
> > I understand your good intentions and valid points but asking the FAA to condemn Schweizer releases and make Tost tow release installations mandatory may ground 90% of our towplanes if and when the design and installation engineering is approved for our many different towplanes.
> >
>
>
> I have been arguing with my club leadership for a while now that we should install a Tost hook on our Pawnee. That said, I absolutely agree with Burt on this. We already have enough mandates and plenty of people both outside and inside aviation who want ever more regulation. The "straw that broke the camel's back" and the "death of a thousand cuts" are real things. Please don't ask for more regulation! Education and rational persuasion are how things are (should be) done in a free society.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Wallace Berry
> WB
What a lot of people obviously do not realize is that there are some applications where ONLY a Schweizer (not "Schweitzer") release is FAA approved. Getting authorization for a Tost may not be so easy.
And, yes, asking the FAA for advice can have very negative results. The owners Centrair Pegase 101 gliders were hit with an AD that limited them to a 3,000 hour life because of a "question" posed by a potential buyer. It took nine years of effort to get that resolved. (Sort of resolved, anyway.)
Tony[_5_]
May 25th 17, 02:54 PM
Yep you want to really make things better, start getting STCs for Tost hook installations. Then people don't have to shop mechanics and fsdo's to get 337's approved.
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
May 25th 17, 03:09 PM
Make the numbers matter, do a world list, I wonder if we would even break a dozen broken ships even worldwide.....let alone fatalities.
Open canopies probably break more gliders.
Dan Marotta
May 25th 17, 03:51 PM
....Or those who don't want to fly without another FAA regulation could
simply quit flying and let the rest of us make our own decisions.
And, in anticipation of the most often argument I've heard, no tow pilot
is forced to fly a plane that he's not comfortable with.
Dan
On 5/25/2017 7:09 AM, wrote:
> Self-regulation is a really good idea. So, Wallace and Burt (and the
> others), how many of your tugs have Schweizer releases? What plans do
> you have for replacing them with Tost - or, at least, inverting them?
>
> In your own time, without FAA mandates, without bureaucratic
> interference, without your tugs being grounded, during the slack
> season, of your own 'self-regulating' free will?
>
> No dates even pencilled in? Better write that letter, Walt.
--
Dan, 5J
kirk.stant
May 25th 17, 04:08 PM
If you get the Tost Tow Reel mod (that IS approved for Pawnees) you get a standard Tost release thrown in for free!
We have one Pawnee with the Tost Reel and one with the old Schweizer release. Guess which one is used more.
Guess which one is scheduled to have it's tow system upgraded (parts already in hand).
Kirk
66
St Louis Soaring Assn.
Paul Agnew
May 25th 17, 04:40 PM
https://members.gliding.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2015/05/Formatted-Final-online.pdf
The British Gliding Association keeps tabs on tow upsets, but here in the US we tend to sweep these events under the rug lest we find ourselves being scrutinized by the FAA. The SSA should be taking on the role that the BGA has, but once again, nobody wants to upset the apple cart. I'd love to see an SSA ASAP system for reporting safety events for review without putting anyone in jeopardy for self-disclosure.
Walt has a legitimate concern based on events that were potentially fatal to him, the tow pilot. In reality, there are very few options to get anything done about it. He lost his job over his concerns for his and other tow pilots' safety. Think about that for a few minutes. He had two major tow upsets, one at very low altitude, and is now compelled to investigate and report the failings in our current systems and practices. Will it amount to much from the FAA? I doubt it. Why? The NTSB only cares if there is blood on the ground. The FAA only cares if someone can make a name for him/herself for taking a noticable action against an operator (in my opinion.) The NASA ASRS reporting system is a nice, feel-good program that accomplishes nothing. Scares and almost-accidents do not get much attention unless it makes the news.
The fear of the FAA reading one report and suddenly deciding this is the issue of the year to be resolved is naive. Until there is a pattern of fatalies, it will not get much attention. It's our responsibility to periodically re-evaluate how we do things and make the changes ahead of the FAA, not in response to the FAA.
I would think the Soaring Safety Foundation would be interested in a comprehensive dialog about this issue. I'm perplexed that the proposed solution to a mechanical design flaw is just "more training". Let's shed the emotion and take a serious look at the facts in these events and properly investigate whether it is a significant safety issue or not.
Paul Agnew
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
May 25th 17, 06:06 PM
I, and likely others, understand that there is a potential here for problems.
Yes, there are fixes, some cheaper/easier than others.
Yes, being on the wrong end during an upset can make a person more adamant about fix. You ARE the PIC, so you have a say in every flight. If it's wrong for you, then don't do it.
Maybe SSA or SSF need to do a blind survey (similar to a NASA report) to find out how many "close ones" there were along with actual incidents, fatal or not.
Then you have some numbers to work with.
You would also have some ammo to at least "strongly suggest" at least inverting a "poor hitch" to lessen the issue.
To get the FAA involved, regardless of intent, I feel is wrong. There are times to get them going, I don't think this is one of them.
..
Rich Owen[_2_]
May 25th 17, 06:29 PM
Paul Agnew,
Paul, please email me at or contact me at 407-325-6500 regarding Walt's termination. Your post has incorrect information and I do not feel it is appropriate to share my answer to everyone on Rec Soaring. Walt is a friend and was a loyal employee at Seminole Lake for nearly 3 years. He deserves his privacy in this matter.
Best Regards,
Rich Owen
Vice President
Seminole Flying & Soaring
In other words, your saying, let's not talk about Seminole Lake Gliderport terminating poor Walt for bringing up safety concerns after 2 near accidents. That's clearly a deflection to avoid embarrassment.
If you want to deflect the conversation, then let's talk about how contestants violate airspace regulations and get penalized 1,060 points. What lessons can we learn from that too??
Perhaps a letter to the SSA is in order to block contest sanctioning to gliderports that have a know history of disregarding legitimate safety concerns. Maybe there are safer operations available that can host the 18M nationals?
Rich Owen[_2_]
May 25th 17, 07:55 PM
We don't know your name and I'm sure you won't email me to find the real story. When Walt brought up the issue we researched all factors and then made the decision to switch to Tost release systems on our towplanes. The safety of all the pilots that operate out of Seminole Lake, which includes our employees and staff, is our number one concern. Walt made a good case and we thought he was right. The Tost hooks are on back order but we expect to have them our ships within 4 weeks. We have spoken to our instructors and reviewed our procedures for losing sight of the towplanes/out of position on tow. We had the same conversation with our tow pilots. The staff here are professionals and take there job very seriously. They also read Rec Aviation Soaring and are getting frustrated that a small number of anonymous posters make comments that sully their reputation. I hope you do write the SSA so you will finally be out in the open. Our employees would like an opportunity to discuss the good we do for the sport.
Rich Owen
Tom Kelley #711
May 25th 17, 08:02 PM
On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 12:19:11 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> In other words, your saying, let's not talk about Seminole Lake Gliderport terminating poor Walt for bringing up safety concerns after 2 near accidents. That's clearly a deflection to avoid embarrassment.
>
> If you want to deflect the conversation, then let's talk about how contestants violate airspace regulations and get penalized 1,060 points. What lessons can we learn from that too??
>
> Perhaps a letter to the SSA is in order to block contest sanctioning to gliderports that have a know history of disregarding legitimate safety concerns. Maybe there are safer operations available that can host the 18M nationals?
Wilbur, no one violated FAA airspace per the penalty you speak of. Its a SSA contest overfly penalty. The lesson learned is once again you speak with your head in the darkness of your ass.
Best. #711.
Don Johnstone[_4_]
May 25th 17, 09:02 PM
At 14:09 25 May 2017, Charlie M. UH & 002 owner/pilot wrote:
>Make the numbers matter, do a world list, I wonder if we would even
break a
>dozen broken ships even worldwide.....let alone fatalities.
>
>Open canopies probably break more gliders.
That might not help much. I have seen a schweizer hook on a tug in
the UK but not lately, I have seen lots of TOST hooks.
The other part of this was ensuring that the release in the tug is as
close as possible to the throttle, in the UK this is mandatory, mainly as
the result of a tug upset in which a good friend of mine is killed.
If there are people in gliding who are more concerned with commercial
concerns than the safety of pilots, that is a real problem. If the
problem cannot be solved voluntarily what is left.
If this is the case then goon on yer Walt, make them have it!
>
The potential for very bad unintended consequences resulting from your well meaning contact with the FAA is large enough to ask you to re-think contacting them.
Tom[_21_]
May 26th 17, 12:32 AM
SF and Burt are right - there is not a lot of knowledge on the FAA regulatory side about soaring so the opportunity for unintended consequences is large.
Let's fix the problem internally. Let's demand and expect higher proficiency on areotow, up our game as a sport with a focus on safety overall, provide clear expectations for pilot performance, provide high quality instruction, manage the risk through evidence based interventions/procedures and educate/empower/protect our tow-pilots rather than treating them as expendable or a necessary evil.
Checklists - canopies, spoilers!
If you fly a single place ship and only fly with a CFI-G the minimum amount "required" - go fly with an instructor, box the wake and so on - get some objective perspective on your flying and work on the fundamentals.
Ask Burt to do a site visit and seriously consider his input.
Question the "that's the way we've always done it" or the "back in the old days" mentality.
I'd never tow with anything other than a Tost hook, btw.
Fly safe!
Tom
Did you read what I wrote? I am actively trying to get my club to install a Tost hook. I think it's the right thing to do. However, there are many other things competing for our limited funds and time. Some of those things may actually yield a greater gain in safety than a Tost hook. I am not omniscient, are you? Do you know, with certainty, that what you want is the best thing for everyone else? How about working to persuade rather than advocate for the use of government force?
Dan Marotta
May 26th 17, 03:46 AM
How can anyone be taken seriously who doesn't know the difference
between "your" and "you're"? Or "its" and "It's", or used double (and
more) punctuation marks? Or uses "their" instead of "his" (except when
the gender is known to be feminine) in the singular case? And all the
while using an alias to hide his identity?
Didn't listen to your English teacher?
And yes, I know several of the above are sentence fragments.
On 5/25/2017 12:19 PM, wrote:
> In other words, your saying, let's not talk about Seminole Lake Gliderport terminating poor Walt for bringing up safety concerns after 2 near accidents. That's clearly a deflection to avoid embarrassment.
>
> If you want to deflect the conversation, then let's talk about how contestants violate airspace regulations and get penalized 1,060 points. What lessons can we learn from that too??
>
> Perhaps a letter to the SSA is in order to block contest sanctioning to gliderports that have a know history of disregarding legitimate safety concerns. Maybe there are safer operations available that can host the 18M nationals?
--
Dan, 5J
Jonathan St. Cloud
May 26th 17, 04:55 AM
Grammar, the difference between knowing your ****, and knowing you're ****.
On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 7:47:01 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> How can anyone be taken seriously who doesn't know the difference
> between "your" and "you're"? Or "its" and "It's", or used double (and
> more) punctuation marks? Or uses "their" instead of "his" (except when
> the gender is known to be feminine) in the singular case? And all the
> while using an alias to hide his identity?
>
> Didn't listen to your English teacher?
>
> And yes, I know several of the above are sentence fragments.
>
> On 5/25/2017 12:19 PM, wrote:
> > In other words, your saying, let's not talk about Seminole Lake Gliderport terminating poor Walt for bringing up safety concerns after 2 near accidents. That's clearly a deflection to avoid embarrassment.
> >
> > If you want to deflect the conversation, then let's talk about how contestants violate airspace regulations and get penalized 1,060 points. What lessons can we learn from that too??
> >
> > Perhaps a letter to the SSA is in order to block contest sanctioning to gliderports that have a know history of disregarding legitimate safety concerns. Maybe there are safer operations available that can host the 18M nationals?
>
> --
> Dan, 5J
Walt Connelly
May 26th 17, 05:51 PM
Walt,
Please don't write a letter to the FAA.
I understand your good intentions and valid points but asking the FAA to condemn Schweizer releases and make Tost tow release installations mandatory may ground 90% of our towplanes if and when the design and installation engineering is approved for our many different towplanes.
Not all towplanes are Pawnees. For example, moving the tow release handle in my Cessna 182 towplane up by the throttle would be problematic if not impossible.
What is needed to be emphasized is proper and RECURRENT training of glider pilots to stay just a bit above the wake on tow (which places the glider pilots' sight picture of the towplane above the horizon, higher than most pilots would think until they try it) to prevent many "kiting" incidents.
Since 1967 I have done thousands of tows in various towplanes and have only had one kiting incident in which I was able to react quickly and release using a Schweizer hook. (The glider pilot also released just after I did and we never found the rope, a small price to pay thanks to our training and prompt reactions to the situation.) Training to fly a proper tow position is essential for the glider pilot.
Please don't write that letter to the FAA.
They would likely over-react and ground my towplanes for a year!
Hopefully they will ask you to document the number of crashes and lives lost due to the Schweizer hook against the number of aerotows made with a Schweizer hook since the 1950's.
What if we eliminated canopies and just fly open-cockpit so we won't have that distraction of making sure the canopy is locked, often resulting in loss of control by the glider pilot, early on takeoff. After all, there is no "standard" locking mechanism on canopies on the various types of gliders. Must we alert the FAA to that?
We could ask the FAA to ban the use of tail dollies while moving gliders on the ground so the dollies could never be left attached for takeoff.
We could ask the FAA to ground all gliders that do not have "automatic control hookups" (which are not fool-proof.)
While we're at it, let's require medical certification for all glider pilots as there are many documented fatalities related to medical incapacitation.. Some foreign countries require medicals as well as wearing parachutes on every flight.
Instead of to the FAA, send your letter to the SSA Government Liaison committee headed by Steve Northcraft. Find his contact info on the SSA website. Again, you will need to document the number of crashes due to the Schweizer hook on towplanes. Show him the numbers.
You stated that we live "in the land of the free", so let's remain free of sweeping mandates and discuss a sensible solution within the worldwide glider community, the smart folks who understand, and live with, the problem.
Please consider not sending that letter to the FAA.
Burt
Marfa, Texas and elsewhere.
(I am speaking for myself and not for the Soaring Safety Foundation.)
Burt, consider the following:
Page 9, Soaring Safety Foundation, Tow Pilot Training. The following is in RED:
DEPENDING ON THE INSTALLATION OF THE TOW HITCH, IT MAY BE POSSIBLE FOR THE RELEASE MECHANISM TO BECOME JAMMED DUE TO THE EXCESSIVELY HIGH POSITION OF THE GLIDER. (AMERICAN STYLE HOOK)
In addition the Advisory Circular, Date 3/3/08, AC No 43.13-2B, page 76 says:
WHEN THE GLIDER UNDER TOW OPERATES ABOVE A CERTAIN ANGLE TO THE TOW PLANE, THE RING MAY SLIDE UPWARDS ON THE HOOK CAUSING EXCESSIVE LOAD ON THE HOOK AND DIFFICULTY IN RELEASING THE TOW ROPE RING.
This confirms that the industry is well aware of the problems with this device and as one who has experienced it first hand I can attest and concur. Why is this known to this degree and has little to nothing been done. In short, the industry is not as self regulating as perhaps it should be.
I found myself 300 feet in the air, pointed at the ground, attached to a student pilot who was not reacting and I was unable to release for more reasons than just the Schweizer hook. Had the rope not broken this conversation would not be taking place. I would have been a statistic and a glider port would be facing my lawyer brother.
Recurrent training would have not been helpful with a 15 year old student on her 3rd solo. Low tow is not helpful when the towplane is just a few feet off the ground over the runway. Do you deny that there have been fatalities in this country due to this mechanism at a critical point?
I found some of your commets to be condescending. Canopies, tail dollys, medical certificates. These do not address the problem I have outlined and only serve to confuse the issue.
I take flying very seriously, I flew almost 7000 tows in 2 years and 8 months without scratching the paint or putting a wheel wrong. I enjoyed my time at SLGP and wish them nothing but the safest and best going forward.
Walt
Karl Kunz[_2_]
May 26th 17, 05:57 PM
There are reports of "unexpected release" and "failure to release" for the Tost release as well, how do the two compare? Anything mechanical is prone to failure so to say the Schweizer is worse than any other release without some type of statistical analysis is kind of meaningless.
On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 5:43:10 PM UTC-7, Walt Connelly wrote:
> Before I send my letter to the FAA I'd like to ask if anyone has ever
> attempted to get them to see the light and end the use of Schweizer
> hooks on tow planes here in the land of the free and the home of the
> brave. It is a well known fact and clearly stated in the SSA/SSF and
> FAA circulars and literature that under certain conditions (the exact
> condition that the tow pilot will need to release) that it can be near
> impossible to release the glider. Tow planes have crashed, lives have
> been lost and at the same time everyone knows that this is a dangerous
> situation.
>
> Along with the conversion to Tost hooks I'd like to see it made
> mandatory that the release handles be up high, near the throttle and
> quickly available to the tow pilot with adequate mechanical advantage. I
> can assure you that one does not have the time to go ducking and
> reaching and feeling for a handle down on the floor of a Pawnee while
> the glider kites in back of you.
>
> The idea of requiring nose hooks on all gliders does not seem to be
> feasible although it has been brought up to me as something that needs
> to be addressed. My understanding is that the CG hook is meant for
> ground/winch launch operations, however I have probably done thousands
> of CG hook aero tows with no problem. For the most part these are ships
> being flown by the best and most aware pilots. I'd like more input from
> experience pilots on this point.
>
> I currently have a number of highly experienced pilots from all levels
> of aviation in agreement with me and willing to help me in this cause.
>
>
> If one life is saved as a result of this endeavor then it will be well
> worth it.
>
> Walt Connelly
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly
Kevin Christner
May 26th 17, 07:02 PM
Rich,
Wilbur Wright is another Sean alias.
I'll be interested to know if he's willing to deny his aliases to your face..
2C
On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 2:55:35 PM UTC-4, Rich Owen wrote:
> We don't know your name and I'm sure you won't email me to find the real story. When Walt brought up the issue we researched all factors and then made the decision to switch to Tost release systems on our towplanes. The safety of all the pilots that operate out of Seminole Lake, which includes our employees and staff, is our number one concern. Walt made a good case and we thought he was right. The Tost hooks are on back order but we expect to have them our ships within 4 weeks. We have spoken to our instructors and reviewed our procedures for losing sight of the towplanes/out of position on tow. We had the same conversation with our tow pilots. The staff here are professionals and take there job very seriously. They also read Rec Aviation Soaring and are getting frustrated that a small number of anonymous posters make comments that sully their reputation. I hope you do write the SSA so you will finally be out in the open. Our employees would like an opportunity to discuss the good we do for the sport.
>
> Rich Owen
Duster
May 26th 17, 07:28 PM
On Friday, May 26, 2017 at 11:57:40 AM UTC-5, Karl Kunz wrote:
> There are reports of "unexpected release" and "failure to release" for the Tost release as well, how do the two compare? Anything mechanical is prone to failure so to say the Schweizer is worse than any other release without some type of statistical analysis is kind of meaningless.
Isn't this a purview of the SSF? Burt Compton has responded to this thread and serves on its board. While he specifically stated he did not represent the SSF in this matter, perhaps you could request the Foundation look into the history of this problem to get those stats?
Mike
Walt Connelly
May 30th 17, 02:24 PM
;947161']At 14:09 25 May 2017, Charlie M. UH & 002 owner/pilot wrote:
Make the numbers matter, do a world list, I wonder if we would even
break a
dozen broken ships even worldwide.....let alone fatalities.
Open canopies probably break more gliders.
That might not help much. I have seen a schweizer hook on a tug in
the UK but not lately, I have seen lots of TOST hooks.
The other part of this was ensuring that the release in the tug is as
close as possible to the throttle, in the UK this is mandatory, mainly as
the result of a tug upset in which a good friend of mine is killed.
If there are people in gliding who are more concerned with commercial
concerns than the safety of pilots, that is a real problem. If the
problem cannot be solved voluntarily what is left.
If this is the case then goon on yer Walt, make them have it!
Mr Johnstone,
I agree completely, to some there is more concern with maintaining a profitable commercial operation and little to none with tug pilot safety. Would it matter if there was one or one hundred tug pilot fatalities due to the current use of a system which is documented as prone to failure in SSA, SSF and FAA documents? I find it telling that Burt Compton didn't not respond when i pointed out verbatim the comments on the SSF website. I'm willing to engage in a dialogue.
The BGA seems to have teeth and uses them. The SSF and SSA obviously have no teeth nor a willingness to use whatever influence it has to correct this potentially deadly situation.
I have much research left to do but what I have so far supports my position.
There also is a question as to the use of the CG hook for aero tow. I see where New Zealand has recommended aero tow not be done with other than a nose hook and Germany had required special training for pilots flying CG hooks on aerotow. I am not advocating the restriction of the CG hook, this was not a contributing factor in my case but certainly seems to have been in others.
Walt
Sean Fidler
May 30th 17, 08:45 PM
On Friday, May 26, 2017 at 2:02:57 PM UTC-4, Kevin Christner wrote:
> Rich,
>
> Wilbur Wright is another Sean alias.
>
> I'll be interested to know if he's willing to deny his aliases to your face.
>
> 2C
>
> On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 2:55:35 PM UTC-4, Rich Owen wrote:
> > We don't know your name and I'm sure you won't email me to find the real story. When Walt brought up the issue we researched all factors and then made the decision to switch to Tost release systems on our towplanes. The safety of all the pilots that operate out of Seminole Lake, which includes our employees and staff, is our number one concern. Walt made a good case and we thought he was right. The Tost hooks are on back order but we expect to have them our ships within 4 weeks. We have spoken to our instructors and reviewed our procedures for losing sight of the towplanes/out of position on tow. We had the same conversation with our tow pilots. The staff here are professionals and take there job very seriously. They also read Rec Aviation Soaring and are getting frustrated that a small number of anonymous posters make comments that sully their reputation. I hope you do write the SSA so you will finally be out in the open. Our employees would like an opportunity to discuss the good we do for the sport.
> >
> > Rich Owen
Hey Kevin. You and I need to have a face to face talk and sort your fantasy out.
Rich and I are fine, trust me.
We all know that Wilbur is your fantasy and that you have no life other than writing posts as Wilbur. You are obsessed with me, have been for a long time and are complete loser. You are creepy. You are also entirely irrelevant to all of these competition conversations. Yet you inject yourself into them constantly.
I honestly feel sorry for you.
If you disagree I am happy to talk about it. Just name the time and place. I will be there. Enough playing around.
Sean Fidler
Renny[_2_]
May 30th 17, 09:51 PM
On Wednesday, May 24, 2017 at 5:03:38 PM UTC-6, Dan Daly wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 24, 2017 at 6:34:10 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> > Walt, don't do it.
>
> I believe the FES (Discus 2, Lak-17B, Lak-19, Ventus 2 and 3) gliders only have C of G hooks, and they take tows... It would be a pity to exclude them from the sport in the US; they are a stepping-stone to electric self-launch for us all once the batteries get better.
One clarification on this subject...When the the LAK-17B is modified with the FES the nose hook is replaced with a hook that is quite far forward (and just back from the FES nose cone). It is definitely not a CG hook...I believe Schempp-Hirth is also building their FES equipped gliders with a similar positioning of the tow hook. Thx - Renny
Dan Daly[_2_]
May 30th 17, 10:26 PM
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 4:51:28 PM UTC-4, Renny wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 24, 2017 at 5:03:38 PM UTC-6, Dan Daly wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 24, 2017 at 6:34:10 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> > > Walt, don't do it.
> >
> > I believe the FES (Discus 2, Lak-17B, Lak-19, Ventus 2 and 3) gliders only have C of G hooks, and they take tows... It would be a pity to exclude them from the sport in the US; they are a stepping-stone to electric self-launch for us all once the batteries get better.
>
> One clarification on this subject...When the the LAK-17B is modified with the FES the nose hook is replaced with a hook that is quite far forward (and just back from the FES nose cone). It is definitely not a CG hook...I believe Schempp-Hirth is also building their FES equipped gliders with a similar positioning of the tow hook. Thx - Renny
I stand corrected.
Dan
Tango Eight
May 30th 17, 11:13 PM
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 3:45:55 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> On Friday, May 26, 2017 at 2:02:57 PM UTC-4, Kevin Christner wrote:
> > Rich,
> >
> > Wilbur Wright is another Sean alias.
> >
> > I'll be interested to know if he's willing to deny his aliases to your face.
> >
> > 2C
> >
> > On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 2:55:35 PM UTC-4, Rich Owen wrote:
> > > We don't know your name and I'm sure you won't email me to find the real story. When Walt brought up the issue we researched all factors and then made the decision to switch to Tost release systems on our towplanes. The safety of all the pilots that operate out of Seminole Lake, which includes our employees and staff, is our number one concern. Walt made a good case and we thought he was right. The Tost hooks are on back order but we expect to have them our ships within 4 weeks. We have spoken to our instructors and reviewed our procedures for losing sight of the towplanes/out of position on tow. We had the same conversation with our tow pilots. The staff here are professionals and take there job very seriously. They also read Rec Aviation Soaring and are getting frustrated that a small number of anonymous posters make comments that sully their reputation. I hope you do write the SSA so you will finally be out in the open. Our employees would like an opportunity to discuss the good we do for the sport.
> > >
> > > Rich Owen
>
> Hey Kevin. You and I need to have a face to face talk and sort your fantasy out.
>
> Rich and I are fine, trust me.
>
> We all know that Wilbur is your fantasy and that you have no life other than writing posts as Wilbur. You are obsessed with me, have been for a long time and are complete loser. You are creepy. You are also entirely irrelevant to all of these competition conversations. Yet you inject yourself into them constantly.
>
> I honestly feel sorry for you.
>
> If you disagree I am happy to talk about it. Just name the time and place. I will be there. Enough playing around.
>
> Sean Fidler
Awesome. When the three of you get together and compare catheter sizes, be sure and let us all know how it worked out, 'kay?
T8
Andreas Maurer
May 31st 17, 02:55 PM
On Tue, 30 May 2017 14:24:11 +0100, Walt Connelly
> wrote:
> and Germany had required special training for pilots
>flying CG hooks on aerotow.
.... which isn't required anymore.
Regards from Germany
Andreas
Walt Connelly
May 31st 17, 09:36 PM
On Tue, 30 May 2017 14:24:11 +0100, Walt Connelly
wrote:
and Germany had required special training for pilots
flying CG hooks on aerotow.
.... which isn't required anymore.
Regards from Germany
Andreas
Thank you Andreas, I do believe I used the past tense "had."
That being said I understand from some highly reliable sources that the intended use of the CG hook was for ground launches. If you think of where a string is attached to a KITE, it is not attached to the nose, it is attached where it is attached for a reason. However it is not my intention to cause any problems for the CG hook glider pilots out there....rather to give a fighting chance to the tow pilot to release quickly and effectively when the need arises. I have heard from tow pilots who will not tow a CG hook glider with a Schweizer on the tow plane.
I may be "Persona Non Grata" in the soaring world but I feel compelled to move forward in this endeavor. I have much work left to do.
Walt
At least on my DG400, my first CG hook glider, which I self launch most of the time, when I do take tows, mostly at contest, trim full forward for tow (as per the manual), makes it a no brainer.
Even at Mifflin at the Sports Class Nationals where we had some very sporty wind on a couple of the days, it was no harder than a nose hook, and even had some advantages because you were able to crab into the wind and not drag the tail of the town plane around on crosswind days.
Kevin
92
Nice discussion but.....
you are not considering the tow planes that have a winch system for tows.
There is a winch inside the fuselage that retracts the tow line after each tow.
At Williams they have a guillotine sytem to cut the tow line if needed.
For a dedicated tow plane this seems to be the most logical solution. Really saves wear on the tow rope and provides a very predictable way to "cut the cord" when needed.
Soarin Again[_2_]
June 1st 17, 08:19 AM
At 03:54 01 June 2017, wrote:
>Nice discussion but.....
>you are not considering the tow planes that have a winch system for tows.
>There is a winch inside the fuselage that retracts the tow line after
each
>tow.
>At Williams they have a guillotine sytem to cut the tow line if needed.
>For a dedicated tow plane this seems to be the most logical solution.
>Really saves wear on the tow rope and provides a very predictable way to
>"cut the cord" when needed.
Likewise is there any data regarding inverted Schweizer tow hooks?
We operated a commercial soaring operation using a 182 with an
inverted Schweizer hook for over 25 years. None of our tow pilots
ever had a problem releasing a kiting glider. There are undoubtedly
other operations that also used an inverted Schweizer hook.
We did also encourage tow pilots, that if the glider started to get high
to put their hand on the release handle (located on the floor between
the seats) and if the yoke touched the aft stop to immediately release.
Also is there any data regarding the Schweizer style hook with the roller
sold by Mcfarlan?
M Eiler
Tango Eight
June 1st 17, 11:28 AM
On Wednesday, May 31, 2017 at 8:43:09 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
> Andreas Maurer;947904 Wrote:
> > On Tue, 30 May 2017 14:24:11 +0100, Walt Connelly
> > wrote:
> > -
> > and Germany had required special training for pilots
> > flying CG hooks on aerotow. -
> >
> > .... which isn't required anymore.
> >
> > Regards from Germany
> > Andreas
>
> Thank you Andreas, I do believe I used the past tense "had."
>
> That being said I understand from some highly reliable sources that the
> intended use of the CG hook was for ground launches. If you think of
> where a string is attached to a KITE, it is not attached to the nose, it
> is attached where it is attached for a reason. However it is not my
> intention to cause any problems for the CG hook glider pilots out
> there....rather to give a fighting chance to the tow pilot to release
> quickly and effectively when the need arises. I have heard from tow
> pilots who will not tow a CG hook glider with a Schweizer on the tow
> plane.
>
> I may be "Persona Non Grata" in the soaring world but I feel compelled
> to move forward in this endeavor. I have much work left to do.
>
> Walt
Well, you could do something positive then. For instance set up a means to share information on existing STCs or field approvals that others might find useful (anyone have a field approved Tost installation for an L-19? I'd be interested in that) or figure out how to get some engineering work done to support new applications, perhaps supported by a GoFundMe campaign or similar. I can think of many options. You know as well as the rest of us what form direct "help" from the FAA will take.
best,
Evan Ludeman / T8
Jonathan St. Cloud
June 1st 17, 03:26 PM
As a sailplane pilot, I was taught to release IMMEDIATELY, if I lost sight of the tow plane. In these kiting accidents, how high are the sailplanes getting above normal tow path and about how long would they have lost sight of tow plane?
On Thursday, June 1, 2017 at 12:30:07 AM UTC-7, soarin wrote:
> At 03:54 01 June 2017, wrote:
> >Nice discussion but.....
> >you are not considering the tow planes that have a winch system for tows.
> >There is a winch inside the fuselage that retracts the tow line after
> each
> >tow.
> >At Williams they have a guillotine sytem to cut the tow line if needed.
> >For a dedicated tow plane this seems to be the most logical solution.
> >Really saves wear on the tow rope and provides a very predictable way to
> >"cut the cord" when needed.
>
> Likewise is there any data regarding inverted Schweizer tow hooks?
> We operated a commercial soaring operation using a 182 with an
> inverted Schweizer hook for over 25 years. None of our tow pilots
> ever had a problem releasing a kiting glider. There are undoubtedly
> other operations that also used an inverted Schweizer hook.
>
> We did also encourage tow pilots, that if the glider started to get high
> to put their hand on the release handle (located on the floor between
> the seats) and if the yoke touched the aft stop to immediately release.
>
> Also is there any data regarding the Schweizer style hook with the roller
> sold by Mcfarlan?
>
> M Eiler
Dan Marotta
June 1st 17, 07:10 PM
Of the 5 pure sailplanes I've owned, all but one had a CG releases
*ONLY*. To my mind, that does not imply that a CG hook is only for
ground launching because that would reduce the number of prospective
purchasers by a bunch.
As others have stated - please don't wake the sleeping giant (FAA). It
is for those tow pilots who have concerns on the matter to decline to
tow a CG release-equipped glider with a Schweizer-equipped tug. To put
it into blunter terms, it is not for you or the FAA to tell me what I
can or cannot fly based upon your concerns.
More freedom, less regulation.
Dan
On 5/31/2017 2:36 PM, Walt Connelly wrote:
> Andreas Maurer;947904 Wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 May 2017 14:24:11 +0100, Walt Connelly
>> wrote:
>> -
>> and Germany had required special training for pilots
>> flying CG hooks on aerotow. -
>>
>> .... which isn't required anymore.
>>
>> Regards from Germany
>> Andreas
> Thank you Andreas, I do believe I used the past tense "had."
>
> That being said I understand from some highly reliable sources that the
> intended use of the CG hook was for ground launches. If you think of
> where a string is attached to a KITE, it is not attached to the nose, it
> is attached where it is attached for a reason. However it is not my
> intention to cause any problems for the CG hook glider pilots out
> there....rather to give a fighting chance to the tow pilot to release
> quickly and effectively when the need arises. I have heard from tow
> pilots who will not tow a CG hook glider with a Schweizer on the tow
> plane.
>
> I may be "Persona Non Grata" in the soaring world but I feel compelled
> to move forward in this endeavor. I have much work left to do.
>
> Walt
>
>
>
>
--
Dan, 5J
Walt Connelly
June 2nd 17, 01:47 PM
On Wednesday, May 31, 2017 at 8:43:09 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
Andreas Maurer;947904 Wrote:
On Tue, 30 May 2017 14:24:11 +0100, Walt Connelly
wrote:
-
and Germany had required special training for pilots
flying CG hooks on aerotow. -
.... which isn't required anymore.
Regards from Germany
Andreas
Thank you Andreas, I do believe I used the past tense "had."
That being said I understand from some highly reliable sources that the
intended use of the CG hook was for ground launches. If you think of
where a string is attached to a KITE, it is not attached to the nose, it
is attached where it is attached for a reason. However it is not my
intention to cause any problems for the CG hook glider pilots out
there....rather to give a fighting chance to the tow pilot to release
quickly and effectively when the need arises. I have heard from tow
pilots who will not tow a CG hook glider with a Schweizer on the tow
plane.
I may be "Persona Non Grata" in the soaring world but I feel compelled
to move forward in this endeavor. I have much work left to do.
Walt
Well, you could do something positive then. For instance set up a means to share information on existing STCs or field approvals that others might find useful (anyone have a field approved Tost installation for an L-19? I'd be interested in that) or figure out how to get some engineering work done to support new applications, perhaps supported by a GoFundMe campaign or similar. I can think of many options. You know as well as the rest of us what form direct "help" from the FAA will take.
best,
Evan Ludeman / T8
I am doing something positive. I am attempting to save the life of the next tow pilot who experiences a sudden (ln about the wink of an eye) kiting event down low. As I have stated, this problem is well known and documented in the SSA, SSF and FAA literature. At a MINIMUM all Schweizer hooks should be inverted AND the release handle needs to be IMMEDIATELY available to the tow pilot, NOT out of sight, down on the floor and in some cases modified (was this done with proper notification of the FAA) reducing the mechanical advantage necessary to actuate the release.
Walt
Walt Connelly
June 2nd 17, 01:57 PM
As a sailplane pilot, I was taught to release IMMEDIATELY, if I lost sight of the tow plane. In these kiting accidents, how high are the sailplanes getting above normal tow path and about how long would they have lost sight of tow plane?
On Thursday, June 1, 2017 at 12:30:07 AM UTC-7, soarin wrote:
At 03:54 01 June 2017, wrote:
Nice discussion but.....
you are not considering the tow planes that have a winch system for tows.
There is a winch inside the fuselage that retracts the tow line after
each
tow.
At Williams they have a guillotine sytem to cut the tow line if needed.
For a dedicated tow plane this seems to be the most logical solution.
Really saves wear on the tow rope and provides a very predictable way to
"cut the cord" when needed.
Likewise is there any data regarding inverted Schweizer tow hooks?
We operated a commercial soaring operation using a 182 with an
inverted Schweizer hook for over 25 years. None of our tow pilots
ever had a problem releasing a kiting glider. There are undoubtedly
other operations that also used an inverted Schweizer hook.
We did also encourage tow pilots, that if the glider started to get high
to put their hand on the release handle (located on the floor between
the seats) and if the yoke touched the aft stop to immediately release.
Also is there any data regarding the Schweizer style hook with the roller
sold by Mcfarlan?
M Eiler
I would hope that all glider pilots in their training understand the need to release immediately when they lose sight of the tow plane. The problem is that not everything everyone is trained to do is accomplished when needed.
In my case a 15 year old on her first solos kited not just high and fast but to the right, pulling my nose down and to the left as if in a spin and does this below 350 feet, this happened in the wink of an eye. We can discuss recurrent trainining which would not have entered into the picture in this situation. We can discuss emphasis on releasing but getting someone to actually do it is another thing. We can discuss it until the cows come home but the bottom line is the tow pilot must be given a fighting chance to have a determination in the outcome when others involved in the situation fail.
Walt
You can keep terminally ill patients from dying of their disease by shooting them in the head. Works every time.
I, along with many others, agree with burt on this one walt. go through steve northcraft if you choose to pursue this further.
On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 8:43:10 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
> Before I send my letter to the FAA I'd like to ask if anyone has ever
> attempted to get them to see the light and end the use of Schweizer
> hooks on tow planes here in the land of the free and the home of the
> brave. It is a well known fact and clearly stated in the SSA/SSF and
> FAA circulars and literature that under certain conditions (the exact
> condition that the tow pilot will need to release) that it can be near
> impossible to release the glider. Tow planes have crashed, lives have
> been lost and at the same time everyone knows that this is a dangerous
> situation.
>
> Along with the conversion to Tost hooks I'd like to see it made
> mandatory that the release handles be up high, near the throttle and
> quickly available to the tow pilot with adequate mechanical advantage. I
> can assure you that one does not have the time to go ducking and
> reaching and feeling for a handle down on the floor of a Pawnee while
> the glider kites in back of you.
>
> The idea of requiring nose hooks on all gliders does not seem to be
> feasible although it has been brought up to me as something that needs
> to be addressed. My understanding is that the CG hook is meant for
> ground/winch launch operations, however I have probably done thousands
> of CG hook aero tows with no problem. For the most part these are ships
> being flown by the best and most aware pilots. I'd like more input from
> experience pilots on this point.
>
> I currently have a number of highly experienced pilots from all levels
> of aviation in agreement with me and willing to help me in this cause.
>
>
> If one life is saved as a result of this endeavor then it will be well
> worth it.
>
> Walt Connelly
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly
Scott Williams
June 2nd 17, 11:06 PM
Walt,
You are not listening to the people you asked an opinion of.
The majority are asking you to not act on your proposed letter.
You must realize that the governments response is completely unpredictable,
Maybe they will ignore you, maybe they will conduct a survey, I have a sense that they will not be willing to spend any money on a solution. But it costs almost nothing to ground a fleet. especially a fleet of mostly non commercial, recreational gliders and tow aircraft.
I have no faith that the FAA would be willing to differentiate between a Schweizer tow release on a tug and a Schweizer release on a glider.
Improbable, Horrible, Worst case scenario, All Schweizer release equipped aircraft are grounded, including gliders.
Could happen? ask the owner of a Blanik l13 with 200 hrs.
If I'm being alarmist so be it. But You must acknowledge you have no idea what the goverment response will be.
Respectfully,
Scott.
Walt-
Before you go off with velocity but no direction, please supply the names and incidences of all these dead tow pilots. You see a problem because it happened to you. I agree that perhaps the Schweizer release is susceptible to failures when the towed glider is wildly out of position, and that there is likely a remedy through either inverting the release or hoping for better training.
Asking for a ban on these release mechanisms nationwide is likely to cause a large number of glider operations to halt operations since the Schweizer release is the ONLY mechanism accepted for a particular tow plane. Banning the Schweizer release is likely to shut down an active club or commercial operator.
The FAA will issue a Notice of Proposed Rule Making (NPRM) prior to proposing an Airworthiness Directive that would ban the use of the Schweizer release. They will have to justify this by citing the "Unsafe conditions" that the AD is supposed to correct. You will have to supply the evidence that this is, in fact, a valid concern. Be prepared with solid evidence of fatalities, accidents incidents and testimony from affected parties. Your word and your singular experiences will not be enough.
Commercial operators and clubs faced with a significant monetary outlay to change release systems are encouraged to document the hundreds of thousands of successful aerotows using the Schweizer release with no incidents or accidents (or tow pilot fatalities).
You don't like Schweizer releases because of your particularly terrifying experience, and I can heartily agree and accept that. Glad you are still around. But, how many tows have you done with the same system that went off without a hitch?
I have fallen off a bicycle several times. (Also motorcycles, hang gliders, horses etc., etc.) but I don't see the need to stop other participants when the vast majority of operations are carried out successfully..
Or, as one of my more colorfully necked acquaintances recently said,
"Y'all don't need ta' NUKE the gopher!"
On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 6:52:27 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Walt-
>
> Before you go off with velocity but no direction, please supply the names and incidences of all these dead tow pilots. You see a problem because it happened to you. I agree that perhaps the Schweizer release is susceptible to failures when the towed glider is wildly out of position, and that there is likely a remedy through either inverting the release or hoping for better training.
>
> Asking for a ban on these release mechanisms nationwide is likely to cause a large number of glider operations to halt operations since the Schweizer release is the ONLY mechanism accepted for a particular tow plane. Banning the Schweizer release is likely to shut down an active club or commercial operator.
>
> The FAA will issue a Notice of Proposed Rule Making (NPRM) prior to proposing an Airworthiness Directive that would ban the use of the Schweizer release. They will have to justify this by citing the "Unsafe conditions" that the AD is supposed to correct. You will have to supply the evidence that this is, in fact, a valid concern. Be prepared with solid evidence of fatalities, accidents incidents and testimony from affected parties. Your word and your singular experiences will not be enough.
>
> Commercial operators and clubs faced with a significant monetary outlay to change release systems are encouraged to document the hundreds of thousands of successful aerotows using the Schweizer release with no incidents or accidents (or tow pilot fatalities).
>
> You don't like Schweizer releases because of your particularly terrifying experience, and I can heartily agree and accept that. Glad you are still around. But, how many tows have you done with the same system that went off without a hitch?
>
> I have fallen off a bicycle several times. (Also motorcycles, hang gliders, horses etc., etc.) but I don't see the need to stop other participants when the vast majority of operations are carried out successfully..
>
> Or, as one of my more colorfully necked acquaintances recently said,
>
> "Y'all don't need ta' NUKE the gopher!"
You apparently did not read my post - go back and read it this time.
Tom
On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 8:43:10 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
> Before I send my letter to the FAA I'd like to ask if anyone has ever
> attempted to get them to see the light and end the use of Schweizer
> hooks on tow planes here in the land of the free and the home of the
> brave. It is a well known fact and clearly stated in the SSA/SSF and
> FAA circulars and literature that under certain conditions (the exact
> condition that the tow pilot will need to release) that it can be near
> impossible to release the glider. Tow planes have crashed, lives have
> been lost and at the same time everyone knows that this is a dangerous
> situation.
>
> Along with the conversion to Tost hooks I'd like to see it made
> mandatory that the release handles be up high, near the throttle and
> quickly available to the tow pilot with adequate mechanical advantage. I
> can assure you that one does not have the time to go ducking and
> reaching and feeling for a handle down on the floor of a Pawnee while
> the glider kites in back of you.
>
> The idea of requiring nose hooks on all gliders does not seem to be
> feasible although it has been brought up to me as something that needs
> to be addressed. My understanding is that the CG hook is meant for
> ground/winch launch operations, however I have probably done thousands
> of CG hook aero tows with no problem. For the most part these are ships
> being flown by the best and most aware pilots. I'd like more input from
> experience pilots on this point.
>
> I currently have a number of highly experienced pilots from all levels
> of aviation in agreement with me and willing to help me in this cause.
>
>
> If one life is saved as a result of this endeavor then it will be well
> worth it.
>
> Walt Connelly
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly
There is no substitute for safety and this is what this is all about. Walt, you should not have to send the letter, but if so compelled, do so. The owner, manager or chief tow pilot should have made sure that those hooks were changed long ago. Now after the fact they are being changed!
Don Johnstone[_4_]
June 3rd 17, 09:41 PM
At 20:36 31 May 2017, Walt Connelly wrote:
>
>Andreas Maurer;947904 Wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 May 2017 14:24:11 +0100, Walt Connelly
>> wrote:
>> -
>> and Germany had required special training for pilots
>> flying CG hooks on aerotow. -
>>
>> .... which isn't required anymore.
>>
>> Regards from Germany
>> Andreas
>
>Thank you Andreas, I do believe I used the past tense "had."
>
>That being said I understand from some highly reliable sources
that th
>intended use of the CG hook was for ground launches. If you
think o
>where a string is attached to a KITE, it is not attached to the nose,
i
>is attached where it is attached for a reason. However it is not m
>intention to cause any problems for the CG hook glider pilots ou
>there....rather to give a fighting chance to the tow pilot to releas
>quickly and effectively when the need arises. I have heard from to
>pilots who will not tow a CG hook glider with a Schweizer on the to
>plane.
>
>I may be "Persona Non Grata" in the soaring world but I feel
compelle
>to move forward in this endeavor. I have much work left to do.
>--
>Walt Connelly
You are right Walt. Back in the day when wooden gliders were the
norm they were fitted with so called "compromise" hooks. Not as far
back as a GoG hook but not on the nose either. I remember flying a
Slingsby T21 with a compromise hook on a cross country tow. I was
the trim, both hands and a foot holding the stick forward to stop the
nose pitching up. Many gliders were refitted with CoG hooks to gain
more height on a winch launch, little thought was given to
aerotowing.
On the subject of glider tow hooks, I have not seen a Pawnee in the
UK with anything other than a Tost release or a retracting towline.
Obviously the drawings exist to fit a Tost to a Pawnee. The
doomsayers alleging that this would be too difficult are being
somewhat disingenuous.
Walt Connelly
June 4th 17, 10:28 PM
I, along with many others, agree with burt on this one walt. go through steve northcraft if you choose to pursue this further.
On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 8:43:10 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
Before I send my letter to the FAA I'd like to ask if anyone has ever
attempted to get them to see the light and end the use of Schweizer
hooks on tow planes here in the land of the free and the home of the
brave. It is a well known fact and clearly stated in the SSA/SSF and
FAA circulars and literature that under certain conditions (the exact
condition that the tow pilot will need to release) that it can be near
impossible to release the glider. Tow planes have crashed, lives have
been lost and at the same time everyone knows that this is a dangerous
situation.
Along with the conversion to Tost hooks I'd like to see it made
mandatory that the release handles be up high, near the throttle and
quickly available to the tow pilot with adequate mechanical advantage. I
can assure you that one does not have the time to go ducking and
reaching and feeling for a handle down on the floor of a Pawnee while
the glider kites in back of you.
The idea of requiring nose hooks on all gliders does not seem to be
feasible although it has been brought up to me as something that needs
to be addressed. My understanding is that the CG hook is meant for
ground/winch launch operations, however I have probably done thousands
of CG hook aero tows with no problem. For the most part these are ships
being flown by the best and most aware pilots. I'd like more input from
experience pilots on this point.
I currently have a number of highly experienced pilots from all levels
of aviation in agreement with me and willing to help me in this cause.
If one life is saved as a result of this endeavor then it will be well
worth it.
Walt Connelly
--
Walt Connelly
Who is Steve Northcraft and what authority does he have to affect the situation?
Walt
On Sunday, June 4, 2017 at 5:43:09 PM UTC-7, Walt Connelly wrote:
> ND;948042 Wrote:
> > I, along with many others, agree with burt on this one walt. go through
> > steve northcraft if you choose to pursue this further.
> >
> > On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 8:43:10 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:-
> > Before I send my letter to the FAA I'd like to ask if anyone has ever
> > attempted to get them to see the light and end the use of Schweizer
> > hooks on tow planes here in the land of the free and the home of the
> > brave. It is a well known fact and clearly stated in the SSA/SSF and
> > FAA circulars and literature that under certain conditions (the exact
> > condition that the tow pilot will need to release) that it can be near
> > impossible to release the glider. Tow planes have crashed, lives have
> > been lost and at the same time everyone knows that this is a dangerous
> > situation.
> >
> > Along with the conversion to Tost hooks I'd like to see it made
> > mandatory that the release handles be up high, near the throttle and
> > quickly available to the tow pilot with adequate mechanical advantage.
> > I
> > can assure you that one does not have the time to go ducking and
> > reaching and feeling for a handle down on the floor of a Pawnee while
> > the glider kites in back of you.
> >
> > The idea of requiring nose hooks on all gliders does not seem to be
> > feasible although it has been brought up to me as something that needs
> > to be addressed. My understanding is that the CG hook is meant for
> > ground/winch launch operations, however I have probably done
> > thousands
> > of CG hook aero tows with no problem. For the most part these are
> > ships
> > being flown by the best and most aware pilots. I'd like more input
> > from
> > experience pilots on this point.
> >
> > I currently have a number of highly experienced pilots from all levels
> > of aviation in agreement with me and willing to help me in this cause.
> >
> >
> >
> > If one life is saved as a result of this endeavor then it will be well
> > worth it.
> >
> > Walt Connelly
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Walt Connelly-
>
> Who is Steve Northcraft and what authority does he have to affect the
> situation?
>
> Walt
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly
He's just the chair of the SSA Government Liaison Committee.
Other than that Mrs Kennedy, how was Dallas?
Jim
Frank Whiteley
June 5th 17, 03:10 PM
On Sunday, June 4, 2017 at 9:32:03 PM UTC-6, JS wrote:
> On Sunday, June 4, 2017 at 5:43:09 PM UTC-7, Walt Connelly wrote:
> > ND;948042 Wrote:
> > > I, along with many others, agree with burt on this one walt. go through
> > > steve northcraft if you choose to pursue this further.
> > >
> > > On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 8:43:10 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:-
> > > Before I send my letter to the FAA I'd like to ask if anyone has ever
> > > attempted to get them to see the light and end the use of Schweizer
> > > hooks on tow planes here in the land of the free and the home of the
> > > brave. It is a well known fact and clearly stated in the SSA/SSF and
> > > FAA circulars and literature that under certain conditions (the exact
> > > condition that the tow pilot will need to release) that it can be near
> > > impossible to release the glider. Tow planes have crashed, lives have
> > > been lost and at the same time everyone knows that this is a dangerous
> > > situation.
> > >
> > > Along with the conversion to Tost hooks I'd like to see it made
> > > mandatory that the release handles be up high, near the throttle and
> > > quickly available to the tow pilot with adequate mechanical advantage.
> > > I
> > > can assure you that one does not have the time to go ducking and
> > > reaching and feeling for a handle down on the floor of a Pawnee while
> > > the glider kites in back of you.
> > >
> > > The idea of requiring nose hooks on all gliders does not seem to be
> > > feasible although it has been brought up to me as something that needs
> > > to be addressed. My understanding is that the CG hook is meant for
> > > ground/winch launch operations, however I have probably done
> > > thousands
> > > of CG hook aero tows with no problem. For the most part these are
> > > ships
> > > being flown by the best and most aware pilots. I'd like more input
> > > from
> > > experience pilots on this point.
> > >
> > > I currently have a number of highly experienced pilots from all levels
> > > of aviation in agreement with me and willing to help me in this cause.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > If one life is saved as a result of this endeavor then it will be well
> > > worth it.
> > >
> > > Walt Connelly
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Walt Connelly-
> >
> > Who is Steve Northcraft and what authority does he have to affect the
> > situation?
> >
> > Walt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Walt Connelly
>
> He's just the chair of the SSA Government Liaison Committee.
> Other than that Mrs Kennedy, how was Dallas?
> Jim
Tried to PM Walt at an AOL address with Steve's contact info. SSA committees and member information are only visible when logged into the SSA web site.
Frank Whiteley
Walt Connelly
June 6th 17, 02:27 PM
On Sunday, June 4, 2017 at 9:32:03 PM UTC-6, JS wrote:
On Sunday, June 4, 2017 at 5:43:09 PM UTC-7, Walt Connelly wrote:
ND;948042 Wrote:
I, along with many others, agree with burt on this one walt. go through
steve northcraft if you choose to pursue this further.
On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 8:43:10 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:-
Before I send my letter to the FAA I'd like to ask if anyone has ever
attempted to get them to see the light and end the use of Schweizer
hooks on tow planes here in the land of the free and the home of the
brave. It is a well known fact and clearly stated in the SSA/SSF and
FAA circulars and literature that under certain conditions (the exact
condition that the tow pilot will need to release) that it can be near
impossible to release the glider. Tow planes have crashed, lives have
been lost and at the same time everyone knows that this is a dangerous
situation.
Along with the conversion to Tost hooks I'd like to see it made
mandatory that the release handles be up high, near the throttle and
quickly available to the tow pilot with adequate mechanical advantage.
I
can assure you that one does not have the time to go ducking and
reaching and feeling for a handle down on the floor of a Pawnee while
the glider kites in back of you.
The idea of requiring nose hooks on all gliders does not seem to be
feasible although it has been brought up to me as something that needs
to be addressed. My understanding is that the CG hook is meant for
ground/winch launch operations, however I have probably done
thousands
of CG hook aero tows with no problem. For the most part these are
ships
being flown by the best and most aware pilots. I'd like more input
from
experience pilots on this point.
I currently have a number of highly experienced pilots from all levels
of aviation in agreement with me and willing to help me in this cause.
If one life is saved as a result of this endeavor then it will be well
worth it.
Walt Connelly
--
Walt Connelly-
Who is Steve Northcraft and what authority does he have to affect the
situation?
Walt
--
Walt Connelly
He's just the chair of the SSA Government Liaison Committee.
Other than that Mrs Kennedy, how was Dallas?
Jim
Tried to PM Walt at an AOL address with Steve's contact info. SSA committees and member information are only visible when logged into the SSA web site.
Frank Whiteley
Frank,
I am in receipt of your email with Steve Northcraft's contact information. What exactly would you have me do? Submit my report to him for presentation to the FAA?
My problem is that I have found accidents as far back as 1999 which acknowledged that the tow hook release mechanism revealed the potential for binding of the release latch when the aircraft being towed moved significantly above the normal horizon position. (NTSB SEA99FA080) This among others and the acknowledgement in SSA, SFF (page 9 SSF Tow pilot training course and FAA Advisory Circular, Date 3/3/08 AC # 43.13.2B) that the release might fail to operate AT THE VERY MOMENT WHEN IT MIGHT SAVE THE TOW PILOT'S LIFE.
I can attest to the fact that these things can occur in the wink of an eye and at certain altitudes they will be potentially fatal regardless of the type of hook or release handle availability. That does NOT negate the fact that the tow pilot deserves a fighting chance to survive and should not be held captive to an antiquated system when that system is known to be prone to failure when needed the most. Been there, done that.
A Canadian soaring club 30 years ago recognized this problem as a result of an accident, they now have Tost hooks and a release up near the throttle as per Dave Springford.
The BGA recognized this problem and now it is mandated that the release handle be located close to the throttle and I am informed by reliable sources that Tost hooks are the norm.
So where is the SSA, SFF in this regard? What actions have they taken to recognize and correct this? I would be happy to put this in Steve's lap if I thought it would be properly addressed and acted on.
It is NOT my intention to inhibit in any way the soaring world here in the USA. My sole intention is to save the life of the next tow pilot who finds his or herself in a sudden kiting situation while down low with a Schweizer hook and an ineffective release handle.
Walt Connelly
If aerotowing didn't have a half century plus history it would be impossible to start aerotowing in 2017. We should get with the times and switch completely to self launching or horse stretched bungees. The idea of tying two aircraft together and going flying is old tyme recklessness. We don't fly biplanes into barns or set up head on locomotive collisions for a laugh anymore. Likewise we shouldn't fly aircraft tied together. No towing means no towing fatalities. Perfect safety through abstinence is what the modern world demands.
Dan Marotta
June 6th 17, 11:18 PM
So practice that abstinence and stop flying.
And screw the modern world and its demands. We live in a free country. ;-)
On 6/6/2017 2:25 PM, wrote:
> If aerotowing didn't have a half century plus history it would be impossible to start aerotowing in 2017. We should get with the times and switch completely to self launching or horse stretched bungees. The idea of tying two aircraft together and going flying is old tyme recklessness. We don't fly biplanes into barns or set up head on locomotive collisions for a laugh anymore. Likewise we shouldn't fly aircraft tied together. No towing means no towing fatalities. Perfect safety through abstinence is what the modern world demands.
--
Dan, 5J
On Tuesday, June 6, 2017 at 6:18:49 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> So practice that abstinence and stop flying.
>
Some of us lack self control to stay on the ground, we need Walt's letter to save us ;)
Scott Williams
June 7th 17, 12:18 AM
Walt,
Convince me,
Please list at least the dates and locations of fatal tow accidents since, say, 1950 which were caused by failure of a tow release on the tug initiated by a "kiting' glider. Of course, Schweizer releases mounted non inverted.
Thank you.
Reading some of the comments on here are disgusting and immature. We have a gentlemen here who has raised concerns after losing his job as a tow pilot from a near fatal accident all while he is taking the high road by avoiding to speak negative of anyone. If you are unable to see that the motivation for this letter, it is for your own benefit. For the people here who are balking at an effort to improve safety, you are the ones who are a massive lead weight to the sport of soaring, this sport would be better off without you. I've first hand seen too many soaring accidents that are quickly covered up and not talked about which leads to no change and then history repeating itself again for no good excuse.
For the ones on here who want freedom, I ask you these question: If your automobile had a recall that was for your safety, would you not do it? If a taxi cab service had the freedom to disregard a recall for a faulty tire that explodes, would you want them to exercise their freedom to not replace the faulty dangerous tire?
Look at the improvements made with spectra ropes. These kind of ropes seldom fail and that's why everyone has switched to them. Can anyone say that this was a poor decision to switch to a more reliable system?
It appears that the Soaring Safety Foundation has become ineffective despite their claims for great success and this is why a pilot is going straight to the FAA. To publicly run down a tow pilot after they lost their job when they are trying to help make advancements for the sport is extremely distasteful. Perhaps a better approach would be to join forces to help find the best solution, which some of you are doing.
I'm shocked that some insurance companies will still cover a towplane that has a defective tow hook much like this discussed. Why would anyone not want to upgrade to a safer system is beyond my comprehension for reasonable thinking except for those who wish to live on the edge and have no regard for their own life.
I see your point. If we had just a bit more safety regarding tug releases all the rest of the risk involved in soaring would be justifiable. Til then we need a nationwide soaring standdown(self launchers too, out of solidarity for your poor brothers.)
On Tuesday, June 6, 2017 at 10:24:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Reading some of the comments on here are disgusting and immature. We have a gentlemen here who has raised concerns after losing his job as a tow pilot from a near fatal accident all while he is taking the high road by avoiding to speak negative of anyone. If you are unable to see that the motivation for this letter, it is for your own benefit. For the people here who are balking at an effort to improve safety, you are the ones who are a massive lead weight to the sport of soaring, this sport would be better off without you. I've first hand seen too many soaring accidents that are quickly covered up and not talked about which leads to no change and then history repeating itself again for no good excuse.
>
> For the ones on here who want freedom, I ask you these question: If your automobile had a recall that was for your safety, would you not do it? If a taxi cab service had the freedom to disregard a recall for a faulty tire that explodes, would you want them to exercise their freedom to not replace the faulty dangerous tire?
>
>
>
> Look at the improvements made with spectra ropes. These kind of ropes seldom fail and that's why everyone has switched to them. Can anyone say that this was a poor decision to switch to a more reliable system?
>
> It appears that the Soaring Safety Foundation has become ineffective despite their claims for great success and this is why a pilot is going straight to the FAA. To publicly run down a tow pilot after they lost their job when they are trying to help make advancements for the sport is extremely distasteful. Perhaps a better approach would be to join forces to help find the best solution, which some of you are doing.
>
> I'm shocked that some insurance companies will still cover a towplane that has a defective tow hook much like this discussed. Why would anyone not want to upgrade to a safer system is beyond my comprehension for reasonable thinking except for those who wish to live on the edge and have no regard for their own life.
Walt Connelly
June 7th 17, 12:30 PM
Walt,
Convince me,
Please list at least the dates and locations of fatal tow accidents since, say, 1950 which were caused by failure of a tow release on the tug initiated by a "kiting' glider. Of course, Schweizer releases mounted non inverted.
Thank you.
Scott,
I am currently doing as complete an analysis of the situation as I can to support my position and this will take some time but I'm curious. How many fatal accidents attributable to a Schweizer hook failure to release in a kiting situation would it take to have you on my side? One? Two? Five? Come back with a specific number and I will share with you what I have.
I CAN tell you the date, place and the name of the pilot who last found himself 1 second from being on that list. It was 4-20-17 at SLGP and the pilots name was Walt Connelly. Had the rope not broken....
Walt
Tom[_21_]
June 7th 17, 12:38 PM
I don't like the flippant responses either. My argument was that a letter to the FAA was not going to have the effect desired and in fact could have draconian and unintended consequences.
As a tow pilot (and a CFI-G) with many tows under my belt and having been in some dire situations (all with Tost hooks) I understand that this is a fundamentally risky endeavor, on both ends of the rope. I/we work very hard to manage that risk and we have to continue.
My point is that we as a sport (or industry) need to work everyday to manage risk, identify the issues, analyze/understand what's happening and work hard to remediate the hazards. We really can't expect the FAA to do this from their perspective without causing more problems.
The callous and flippant remarks are truly the sign of hazardous attitudes and or immaturity. Having been yanked around to the point of losing control of the tow plane and or looking back in my mirror and seeing the complete underside of a glider while I'm in a level attitude after the glider pilot lost control (the rope broke and we made it home) - it's a very hopeless and terrible feeling. It makes sense that it provokes a reaction on the part of the tow pilot. That should be respected. The "rugged independence" and individualism of sailplane flying is only true after you get off tow - until then it's a team sport.
I just don't see the FAA reaction or "fix" as viable or appropriate.
And as I said before, I'd never tow with anything other than the Tost setup..
I hardly ever post here - mostly lurk. I do find it very interesting and illuminating to read these long and contentious subjects - it reveals a lot.
Tom
as a PIC, you always have the option to decide that the risk is not within acceptable limits it's no different than the wind being to strong for you. no one is using a cattle prod to jockey you into the towplane. you can refuse to fly, and if you aren't comfortable, i hope you have refused.
has your club/operation switched to a TOST release? if not, why? you could refuse to tow until they switch, both because it makes you uncomfortable, and as a means of getting your point across. we all have the option of staying on the ground regardless of what the regs say. maybe you've already done that. lobby your clubs leadership to switch releases. if they don't want to pay for it and you're so passionate, talk to people, take up a collection amongst them, and pay some for the release yourself. have you done these things?
On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 8:43:10 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
> Before I send my letter to the FAA I'd like to ask if anyone has ever
> attempted to get them to see the light and end the use of Schweizer
> hooks on tow planes here in the land of the free and the home of the
> brave. It is a well known fact and clearly stated in the SSA/SSF and
> FAA circulars and literature that under certain conditions (the exact
> condition that the tow pilot will need to release) that it can be near
> impossible to release the glider. Tow planes have crashed, lives have
> been lost and at the same time everyone knows that this is a dangerous
> situation.
>
> Along with the conversion to Tost hooks I'd like to see it made
> mandatory that the release handles be up high, near the throttle and
> quickly available to the tow pilot with adequate mechanical advantage. I
> can assure you that one does not have the time to go ducking and
> reaching and feeling for a handle down on the floor of a Pawnee while
> the glider kites in back of you.
>
> The idea of requiring nose hooks on all gliders does not seem to be
> feasible although it has been brought up to me as something that needs
> to be addressed. My understanding is that the CG hook is meant for
> ground/winch launch operations, however I have probably done thousands
> of CG hook aero tows with no problem. For the most part these are ships
> being flown by the best and most aware pilots. I'd like more input from
> experience pilots on this point.
>
> I currently have a number of highly experienced pilots from all levels
> of aviation in agreement with me and willing to help me in this cause.
>
>
> If one life is saved as a result of this endeavor then it will be well
> worth it.
>
> Walt Connelly
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly
Frank Whiteley
June 7th 17, 02:04 PM
On Tuesday, June 6, 2017 at 12:43:06 PM UTC-6, Walt Connelly wrote:
> Frank Whiteley;948185 Wrote:
> > On Sunday, June 4, 2017 at 9:32:03 PM UTC-6, JS wrote:-
> > On Sunday, June 4, 2017 at 5:43:09 PM UTC-7, Walt Connelly wrote:-
> > ND;948042 Wrote: -
> > I, along with many others, agree with burt on this one walt. go
> > through
> > steve northcraft if you choose to pursue this further.
> >
> > On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 8:43:10 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:-
> > Before I send my letter to the FAA I'd like to ask if anyone has
> > ever
> > attempted to get them to see the light and end the use of Schweizer
> > hooks on tow planes here in the land of the free and the home of the
> > brave. It is a well known fact and clearly stated in the SSA/SSF
> > and
> > FAA circulars and literature that under certain conditions (the
> > exact
> > condition that the tow pilot will need to release) that it can be
> > near
> > impossible to release the glider. Tow planes have crashed, lives
> > have
> > been lost and at the same time everyone knows that this is a
> > dangerous
> > situation.
> >
> > Along with the conversion to Tost hooks I'd like to see it made
> > mandatory that the release handles be up high, near the throttle and
> > quickly available to the tow pilot with adequate mechanical
> > advantage.
> > I
> > can assure you that one does not have the time to go ducking and
> > reaching and feeling for a handle down on the floor of a Pawnee
> > while
> > the glider kites in back of you.
> >
> > The idea of requiring nose hooks on all gliders does not seem to be
> > feasible although it has been brought up to me as something that
> > needs
> > to be addressed. My understanding is that the CG hook is meant for
> > ground/winch launch operations, however I have probably done
> > thousands
> > of CG hook aero tows with no problem. For the most part these are
> > ships
> > being flown by the best and most aware pilots. I'd like more input
> > from
> > experience pilots on this point.
> >
> > I currently have a number of highly experienced pilots from all
> > levels
> > of aviation in agreement with me and willing to help me in this
> > cause.
> >
> >
> >
> > If one life is saved as a result of this endeavor then it will be
> > well
> > worth it.
> >
> > Walt Connelly
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Walt Connelly--
> >
> > Who is Steve Northcraft and what authority does he have to affect the
> > situation?
> >
> > Walt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Walt Connelly-
> >
> > He's just the chair of the SSA Government Liaison Committee.
> > Other than that Mrs Kennedy, how was Dallas?
> > Jim-
> >
> > Tried to PM Walt at an AOL address with Steve's contact info. SSA
> > committees and member information are only visible when logged into the
> > SSA web site.
> >
> > Frank Whiteley
>
>
> Frank,
>
> I am in receipt of your email with Steve Northcraft's contact
> information. What exactly would you have me do? Submit my report to him
> for presentation to the FAA?
>
> My problem is that I have found accidents as far back as 1999 which
> acknowledged that the tow hook release mechanism revealed the potential
> for binding of the release latch when the aircraft being towed moved
> significantly above the normal horizon position. (NTSB SEA99FA080)
> This among others and the acknowledgement in SSA, SFF (page 9 SSF Tow
> pilot training course and FAA Advisory Circular, Date 3/3/08 AC #
> 43.13.2B) that the release might fail to operate AT THE VERY MOMENT WHEN
> IT MIGHT SAVE THE TOW PILOT'S LIFE.
>
> I can attest to the fact that these things can occur in the wink of
> an eye and at certain altitudes they will be potentially fatal
> regardless of the type of hook or release handle availability. That
> does NOT negate the fact that the tow pilot deserves a fighting chance
> to survive and should not be held captive to an antiquated system when
> that system is known to be prone to failure when needed the most. Been
> there, done that.
>
> A Canadian soaring club 30 years ago recognized this problem as a
> result of an accident, they now have Tost hooks and a release up near
> the throttle as per Dave Springford.
>
> The BGA recognized this problem and now it is mandated that the
> release handle be located close to the throttle and I am informed by
> reliable sources that Tost hooks are the norm.
>
> So where is the SSA, SFF in this regard? What actions have they
> taken to recognize and correct this? I would be happy to put this in
> Steve's lap if I thought it would be properly addressed and acted on.
>
> It is NOT my intention to inhibit in any way the soaring world here
> in the USA. My sole intention is to save the life of the next tow pilot
> who finds his or herself in a sudden kiting situation while down low
> with a Schweizer hook and an ineffective release handle.
>
> Walt Connelly
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly
At least discuss your proposal with Steve. There may be history with the FAA on this issue.
Frank Whiteley
> How many fatal accidents attributable to a Schweizer hook failure to
> release in a kiting situation would it take to have you on my side?
> One? Two? Five?
If that is your logic recreational flight is not defensible. We average half dozen glider pilot fatalities in the US per year. Are you going to write a letter about that? Being a tow pilot, even with an Elmira Death Hook, is safer than being a glider pilot. If it is worth it to get the FAA involved to save towpilots it would be hypocritical and morally wrong not to get the FAA involved in saving glider pilots.
Dan Marotta
June 7th 17, 05:26 PM
Nice reply - still chuckling. Glad some of us can keep our sense of humor.
On 6/6/2017 5:17 PM, wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 6, 2017 at 6:18:49 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> So practice that abstinence and stop flying.
>>
> Some of us lack self control to stay on the ground, we need Walt's letter to save us ;)
--
Dan, 5J
Scott Williams
June 7th 17, 05:39 PM
Even one is a tragedy,
Please Share,
Scott
> How many fatal accidents attributable to a Schweizer hook failure to
> release in a kiting situation would it take to have you on my side?
> One? Two? Five? Come back with a specific number and I will share
> with you what I have.
>
> I CAN tell you the date, place and the name of the pilot who last
> found himself 1 second from being on that list. It was 4-20-17 at SLGP
> and the pilots name was Walt Connelly. Had the rope not broken....
>
> Walt
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly
Don Johnstone[_4_]
June 7th 17, 10:51 PM
At 16:39 07 June 2017, Scott Williams wrote:
It is interesting to note that no one denies that the Schweizer hook has
an inherent design fault that can lead to failure to release.
It is clear that most people agree that the TOST release is safer and
does not suffer from the same fault.
It is obvious that a release control mounted near the throttle in a tow
plane provides more opportunity to release quickly in the event of an
upset.
It is well proven that if release is required in these circumstances it is
imperative that it happens quickly.
All these things have been "known" for some time, and for whatever
reason, some have ignored the common sense solution of fitting TOST
releases and mounting the release knob near the throttle.
Given that the people responsible for safety within the US soaring
community appear to have, and continue to, ignore the obvious danger
what other action could Walt possibly take?
As an outside observer from a part of the world where the fitting of the
release knob close to the throttle is mandated, as the result of one fatal
accident, (one that led to the death of a very good friend) I would have
to conclude that Walt really does have no alternative. No one else
appears to have the courage to take any action.
US soaring has had more than enough time to put it's house in order,
when self regulation fails there is only one other alternative.
That accident that I describe by the way, occurred 39 years ago, how
long does it take you to learn?
Don Johnstone[_4_]
June 7th 17, 11:33 PM
After considering my last post a thought came to me. There is no need
for Walt to send a letter to the FAA, unless they are blind deaf and
stupid, they already know. I find it hard to believe that they would not
be aware of what has been said in this thread.
Given that the USA has the reputation of being the home of the most
litigious people on the planet I find it hard to believe that knowing
there is a problem, and failing to act might not be the wisest course of
action. I am sure that the FAA are a far more lucrative target to sue, in
the event of an accident, than the SAA or an individual club or glider
operation.
Surely Pandora's Box is already open and the clock is ticking.
Brian[_1_]
June 8th 17, 12:23 AM
The problem with a letter the FAA as already noted is that while you have an outcome of the letter in mind the outcome may be significantly different than you expect. But writing a letter is quick, cheap, and easy.
Bad Regulations are often the result of Good intentions.
Better plan, โฆ.
Start Identifying operations that should upgrade their equipment to safer equipment. i.e. Tost Hooks, moving Releasing handles. Insure there actually are options to upgrade i.e. 337โs available or better yet STCโs for doing so for the aircraft they are using.
IF 337โs or STCโs are not available assist in developing them.
Award a Safety Rating/award to operations that have made these improvements..
Contact manufacturers such as American Champion that still sell Schweitzer releases and encourage them to offer Tost Releases and improve the location of these factory release handles.
Contact Cessna and encourage them to offer Tost Releases as a factory option with appropriate release handles.
Start a Fund to help subsidize operations upgrades or to develop STCโs.
Contact the SSA and Volunteer to become a SSF volunteer to educate and develop all the above.
Of course, this is a lot more work than just writing a letter that will likely have limited positive effect and had the potential for negative consequences. But then is saving one life only worth just a letter to the FAA, or is it worth you paying to upgrade one or more towplanes for an operation, or spending a few days a year evaluating and educating soaring operations, raising funds, and developing the actual paperwork to do the upgrades?
Brian
CFIIG
Walt Connelly
June 8th 17, 12:38 AM
At least discuss your proposal with Steve. There may be history with the FAA on this issue.
Frank Whiteley[/QUOTE]
Frank, the following Email was sent to the email address you provided for Steve Northcraft.
Mr Northcraft,
In case you haven't heard about my letter to the FAA, to save the both of us time I would ask that you go to AviationBanter or RecAviation Soaring and read my comments under "Letter to the FAA" and perhaps "Tow Plane Upsets" which will give you some insight into my intentions.
To make a long story short I experienced two very sudden kiting incidents within one weeks time. One at 2000 feet and one starting at about 350 feet. In both cases I made an attempt to release the glider and in both cases I found the release virtually frozen. In the incident that happened at 350 feet, had the rope not broken or had it broken a second or so later you would have been reading about my death. I was flying a Piper Pawnee with a Schweizer hook and a release handle located down on and parallel to the floor.
The post "Tow Plane Upsets" was meant to explain what happened to me and to hear from other tow pilots of their experiences. I had heard about the difficulty releasing a glider with the Schweizer hook as have most tow pilots, to have experienced it drives home the reality of the situation. I was made aware of at least two deaths in the USA as a result of a failure of the Schweizer release. I understand one of these deaths resulted in the STC for the Inverted Schweizer hook. These mechanisms are meant to allow the tow pilot to release the glider when it becomes critically necessary. I can tell you that at that moment it didn't work for me.
I found it telling that many other tow pilots say they will NOT tow with anything but a Tost hook. I learned that a Canadian glider pilot/tow pilot well known to me noted that 30 years ago their club went to the Tost hook and a release handle up near the throttle as a result of a low kiting accident. In addition, the British Gliding Association has mandated the release be up near the throttle and I am told that the Schweizer hook is virtually non existent in their system. The BGA obvioiusly stepped forward and corrected the situation. Where is the SSA/SFF in this regard?
What I find astounding is that this has been known for quite some time. In both FAA Advisory Circular, Date 3/3/08, AC no 43.13-2B, page 76 and in Soaring Safety Foundation, Tow Pilot Training, page 9 (in red no less) it is clearly stated that when the glider under tow operates above a certain angle to the tow plane, the ring may slide upwards on the hook causing excessive load on the hook and difficulty in releasing the tow rope ring.
In addition to the failure of the Schweizer hook to open, I question the sanity of putting a release handle down on and "parallel" to the floor of the Pawnee requiring an olympic level of calesthenics to reach and actuate. While this may have been approved by the FAA, this poor design was easily a factor in my inability to release the glider in both cases. On page 78 of the above mentioned FAA Advisory Circular there is a drawing, Figure 8-3. Typical Tow Hitch Release Handle showing a handle extending more vertically, perhaps 30 degrees from fully vertical. I have seen such a handle installation on other Pawnees with a handle long enough so as to be immediately available to the pilot. It would make sense that this should be the standard for handle design and installation.
I am a reasonable person. It is NOT my intention to do anything to inhibit the gliding, soaring community. It is my intention to save a life so I am communicating with you as per the request of Frank Whiteley. Is there a history with the FAA regarding this issue? I realize that if I approach the FAA that an over reaction might happen. I would be willing to put this ball in your court to see if a reasonable accomodation could be made.
Please Advise.
Respectfully
Walt Connelly
kirk.stant
June 8th 17, 12:49 AM
On Wednesday, June 7, 2017 at 5:45:08 PM UTC-5, Don Johnstone wrote:
I am sure that the FAA are a far more lucrative target to sue, in
> the event of an accident, than the SAA or an individual club or glider
> operation.
OMG! That is hilarious - better even than the "Elmira Death Hook"!
Seriously - you really can't sue the FAA - it's the government and they WILL win. But a glider operation with some liquid assets?
Not to belittle Walt's plight - and as a fellow tow pilot who has also had an upset (although minor) in a Schweizer-equipped Pawnee - I am completely in the camp that all the Elmira Death Hooks (giggle) should be trashed and replaced with Tost release. 33.3 percent done on our towplanes, should be 66.6 by the end of the year, perhaps higher if we sell the last Schweizer equipped death trap (Anyone seriously interested in a 180 SuperCub?).
And while you are at it, trash the Gollywhompers that at bolted to the Elmira Death Hooks!
(Thanks Pez D Spencer!)
Kirk
66
You can sue the FAA and win. I know someone personally who did, rather his estate did.
Paul Agnew
June 8th 17, 04:25 AM
Link for the Advisory Circular mentioned. Start at page 72.
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%2043.13-2B.pdf
Walt Connelly
June 8th 17, 01:58 PM
Link for the Advisory Circular mentioned. Start at page 72.
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%2043.13-2B.pdf
Paul,
The drawing shown here appears to me to equate to the position of the handle in your tow plane. The ones I flew as I have stated require the pilot to make a dive for the floor, reaching and feeling for the handle. In the scant second one might have to successfully release a Schweizer hook, this is insane.
Even with this kind of set up it is still possible for a tow pilot to experience an upset from which recovery will not be possible....it's all about altitude. Reaction time is part of the equation and my position is that a handle not immediately accessable to the tow pilot is a recipe for disaster. Again, It is absurd to not give the tow pilot every fighting chance possible to have a positive outcome of a negative situation.
Walt
Walt Connelly
June 8th 17, 02:06 PM
You can sue the FAA and win. I know someone personally who did, rather his estate did.
There are many common misconceptions concerning lawsuits, one of which is that you can't sue a goverment agency. Not so. "The Federal Tort Claims Act waives the historic concept of sovereign immunity inherited from English law. It is possible to sue a federal employee who commits a tortuous act (negligence) within the scope of employment. An example would be a pilot complying with an ATC IFR clearance that causes him to fly into a mountain."
That being said if you want to go after a goverment agency you better have a strong, willing lawyer on your side and deep pockets. It's gonna cost you.
Walt
Walt Connelly
June 8th 17, 02:52 PM
Walt-
Before you go off with velocity but no direction, please supply the names and incidences of all these dead tow pilots. You see a problem because it happened to you. I agree that perhaps the Schweizer release is susceptible to failures when the towed glider is wildly out of position, and that there is likely a remedy through either inverting the release or hoping for better training.
Asking for a ban on these release mechanisms nationwide is likely to cause a large number of glider operations to halt operations since the Schweizer release is the ONLY mechanism accepted for a particular tow plane. Banning the Schweizer release is likely to shut down an active club or commercial operator.
The FAA will issue a Notice of Proposed Rule Making (NPRM) prior to proposing an Airworthiness Directive that would ban the use of the Schweizer release. They will have to justify this by citing the "Unsafe conditions" that the AD is supposed to correct. You will have to supply the evidence that this is, in fact, a valid concern. Be prepared with solid evidence of fatalities, accidents incidents and testimony from affected parties. Your word and your singular experiences will not be enough.
Commercial operators and clubs faced with a significant monetary outlay to change release systems are encouraged to document the hundreds of thousands of successful aerotows using the Schweizer release with no incidents or accidents (or tow pilot fatalities).
You don't like Schweizer releases because of your particularly terrifying experience, and I can heartily agree and accept that. Glad you are still around. But, how many tows have you done with the same system that went off without a hitch?
I have fallen off a bicycle several times. (Also motorcycles, hang gliders, horses etc., etc.) but I don't see the need to stop other participants when the vast majority of operations are carried out successfully..
Or, as one of my more colorfully necked acquaintances recently said,
"Y'all don't need ta' NUKE the gopher!"
Mark,
I am surprised that you would ask the question "But how many tows have you done with the same system that went off without a hitch?" Are you serious? Well, to answer your question I have done just short of 7,000 tows prior to my "dismissal." Of those seven thousand, TWO resulted in a severe, sudden, unanticipated kiting which resulted in my need to attempt to release. Of those two situations, IN ONE HUNDRED PERCENT OF THEM I WAS UNABLE TO RELEASE FROM THE GLIDER.
I too have fallen from my bicycle, I was a USCF Senior Three many years and about 40 pounds ago. The bicycle fall was my fault, no one elses. I have dropped my motorcycle in the rain, my fault, no one elses. I too have fallen from a horse, my fault. The difference here is that a tow pilot is connected to a glider by a 200 foot rope and the glider pilot can negatively affect the situation with no fault of the tow pilot. If at that moment the system that is meant to save the life of the tow pilot doesn't work (and it is beyond well documented that it might not) the tow pilot could be dead. What part of this is it that some people don't seem to understand?
I am willing to allow the SFF/SAA and their representatives handle this but the fact is they have had decades to do so and have failed in this regard.
Walt
Walt Connelly
June 9th 17, 08:38 PM
I am in receipt of an email from the SSA Government Liason representative Mr Northcutt. I am truly amazed at being told that since I am NOT a current member of the Soaring Society of America he is unwilling to discuss my concerns.
He did go on to make three bullet points which make me think he did not read my email.
To say that perhaps the facility at which I worked need to address their training is a bit presumptative. One pilot was not from this field, but one of the many who come down to this facility due to the weather. The second was a 15 year old solo student on her third pull. For those of you familiar with the USAFA accident where the cadet instructor noted she was above the tow plane with a "taught" rope and decided to increase pitch to slow up and allow the tow pilot to get back in position I would ask, "how can we expect a 15 year old student to understand the importance of releasing in such a position if a USAFA student and CFI-G doesn't understand and react properly?
I am well aware of the FAA requirements for PIC. The airplanes I was flying were not unsafe to fly and the Schweizer hook system is approved by the FAA. My concern is one that has been expressed by other pilots and which has directly contributed to the death of more than one tow pilot here and in other countries.
My investigation of the available information continues, it will take some time but I will try to be as thorough as possible.
Walt
Do you even fly bro?
On Friday, June 9, 2017 at 8:43:08 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
> I am in receipt of an email from the SSA Government Liason
> representative Mr Northcutt. I am truly amazed at being told that
> since I am NOT a current member of the Soaring Society of America he is
> unwilling to discuss my concerns.
> He did go on to make three bullet points which make me think he did not
> read my email.
>
> To say that perhaps the facility at which I worked need to address their
> training is a bit presumptative. One pilot was not from this field, but
> one of the many who come down to this facility due to the weather. The
> second was a 15 year old solo student on her third pull. For those of
> you familiar with the USAFA accident where the cadet instructor noted
> she was above the tow plane with a "taught" rope and decided to increase
> pitch to slow up and allow the tow pilot to get back in position I would
> ask, "how can we expect a 15 year old student to understand the
> importance of releasing in such a position if a USAFA student and CFI-G
> doesn't understand and react properly?
>
> I am well aware of the FAA requirements for PIC. The airplanes I was
> flying were not unsafe to fly and the Schweizer hook system is approved
> by the FAA. My concern is one that has been expressed by other pilots
> and which has directly contributed to the death of more than one tow
> pilot here and in other countries.
>
> My investigation of the available information continues, it will take
> some time but I will try to be as thorough as possible.
>
> Walt
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly
Tom BravoMike
June 10th 17, 05:33 AM
I would think that any institution we deal with, FAA, SSA, EAA, AOPA etc,. etc. should take with highest level of seriousness any remark concerning safety made by a pilot and based on his/her life-threatening experience in flight, member or not.
Several years ago when flying their LS-4 at Soar Minden I was in a situation after landing where the wheel brake, activated by pushing both rudder pedals, seemingly didn't work on a roll-out. I was happy I didn't hit any one on the tarmac. I quickly found out that you have to push with your HEELS, and not FEET. I reported my observation to their instructor with a reference to a possible wrong translation in the glider's Flight Manual, which I had studied before the flight. Some time later checking their web site I was pleased and grateful to see they had reacted and put a proper remark in the manual. The German original reads: "wird mit den Absรคtzen bedient". I just found the English manual for the LS-4A on-line, and it reads correctly now: "Press rudder pedals with heels to activate wheel brake" - so it must have been amended officially.
Just an example of a proper concern instead of a denial.
Tom BravoMike
On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 8:43:10 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
> Before I send my letter to the FAA I'd like to ask if anyone has ever
> attempted to get them to see the light and end the use of Schweizer
> hooks on tow planes here in the land of the free and the home of the
> brave. It is a well known fact and clearly stated in the SSA/SSF and
> FAA circulars and literature that under certain conditions (the exact
> condition that the tow pilot will need to release) that it can be near
> impossible to release the glider. Tow planes have crashed, lives have
> been lost and at the same time everyone knows that this is a dangerous
> situation.
>
> Along with the conversion to Tost hooks I'd like to see it made
> mandatory that the release handles be up high, near the throttle and
> quickly available to the tow pilot with adequate mechanical advantage. I
> can assure you that one does not have the time to go ducking and
> reaching and feeling for a handle down on the floor of a Pawnee while
> the glider kites in back of you.
>
> The idea of requiring nose hooks on all gliders does not seem to be
> feasible although it has been brought up to me as something that needs
> to be addressed. My understanding is that the CG hook is meant for
> ground/winch launch operations, however I have probably done thousands
> of CG hook aero tows with no problem. For the most part these are ships
> being flown by the best and most aware pilots. I'd like more input from
> experience pilots on this point.
>
> I currently have a number of highly experienced pilots from all levels
> of aviation in agreement with me and willing to help me in this cause.
>
>
> If one life is saved as a result of this endeavor then it will be well
> worth it.
>
> Walt Connelly
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly
Sounds to me as if Mr. Northcutt needs to find another job where he could be a bit more effective and concerned about the overall safety issues involved. Walt, go straight to OK, City, I can assure you that the response will be different.
Why should the SSA engage with a nonmember who seeks to increase government regulation of soaring? Keeping the government out of soaring is the SSA's job. Walt is no different than a farmer mcnastyneighbor trying to shut down a gliderport. I know the response, save your safety talk for your wives.. Walt ain't about safety. Walt is about bitterness and revenge via bureaucracy warfare.
> Sounds to me as if Mr. Northcutt needs to find another job where he could be a bit more effective and concerned about the overall safety issues involved. Walt, go straight to OK, City, I can assure you that the response will be different.
Walt Connelly
June 10th 17, 04:17 PM
I would think that any institution we deal with, FAA, SSA, EAA, AOPA etc,. etc. should take with highest level of seriousness any remark concerning safety made by a pilot and based on his/her life-threatening experience in flight, member or not.
Several years ago when flying their LS-4 at Soar Minden I was in a situation after landing where the wheel brake, activated by pushing both rudder pedals, seemingly didn't work on a roll-out. I was happy I didn't hit any one on the tarmac. I quickly found out that you have to push with your HEELS, and not FEET. I reported my observation to their instructor with a reference to a possible wrong translation in the glider's Flight Manual, which I had studied before the flight. Some time later checking their web site I was pleased and grateful to see they had reacted and put a proper remark in the manual. The German original reads: "wird mit den Absรคtzen bedient". I just found the English manual for the LS-4A on-line, and it reads correctly now: "Press rudder pedals with heels to activate wheel brake" - so it must have been amended officially.
Just an example of a proper concern instead of a denial.
Tom BravoMike
I would think the same Tom but apparently the SSA is less concerned with safety and more concerned with who is and who is not a member of the club. But for that matter every club and commercial operation out there still flying with Schweizer hooks and release handles not immediately accessable by the tow pilot are not concerned with safety either.
Walt
Tango Eight
June 10th 17, 07:49 PM
On Saturday, June 10, 2017 at 2:43:07 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
> I would think the same Tom but apparently the SSA is less concerned with
> safety and more concerned with who is and who is not a member of the
> club. But for that matter every club and commercial operation out there
> still flying with Schweizer hooks and release handles not immediately
> accessable by the tow pilot are not concerned with safety either.
>
> Walt
So you weren't concerned with safety, either, until very recently?
best,
Evan Ludeman / T8
There are treatments for PTSD that don't involve the FAA.
The odds of anything rational and positive coming from involving .GOV is really poor.
Don Johnstone[_4_]
June 11th 17, 12:53 PM
At 04:21 11 June 2017, wrote:
>There are treatments for PTSD that don't involve the FAA.
>
>The odds of anything rational and positive coming from involving
GOV is
>really poor.
>
So put your own house in order and it will be unecessary
Walt Connelly
June 11th 17, 01:56 PM
;948656']There are treatments for PTSD that don't involve the FAA.
The odds of anything rational and positive coming from involving .GOV is really poor.
Please tell me what treatment is available to a dead tow pilot who tried to release a glider with a Schweizer hook and died as a result of a well documented flaw of that release?
Walt
Walt Connelly
June 11th 17, 01:57 PM
On Saturday, June 10, 2017 at 2:43:07 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
I would think the same Tom but apparently the SSA is less concerned with
safety and more concerned with who is and who is not a member of the
club. But for that matter every club and commercial operation out there
still flying with Schweizer hooks and release handles not immediately
accessable by the tow pilot are not concerned with safety either.
Walt
So you weren't concerned with safety, either, until very recently?
best,
Evan Ludeman / T8
Evan, I would say that your thought process needs some work.
Walt
Walt Connelly
June 11th 17, 02:06 PM
Why should the SSA engage with a nonmember who seeks to increase government regulation of soaring? Keeping the government out of soaring is the SSA's job. Walt is no different than a farmer mcnastyneighbor trying to shut down a gliderport. I know the response, save your safety talk for your wives.. Walt ain't about safety. Walt is about bitterness and revenge via bureaucracy warfare.
Sounds to me as if Mr. Northcutt needs to find another job where he could be a bit more effective and concerned about the overall safety issues involved. Walt, go straight to OK, City, I can assure you that the response will be different.
For that VERY reason Mr Ballou. The SSA has very few teeth but it appears that what teeth it has is unconcerned with this condition. If the SSA was truly interested in keeping the FAA out of soaring then the SSA would be doing everything possible to correct conditions which would bring the SSA and Soaring to the attention of the FAA. Had the rope not broken, how much attention do you think the FAA would be giving to SLGP and the SSA.
You do not know me and I can assure you I was quite pleased at being terminated. I had decided to leave the first day I was back when the manager and VP showed up. I was appalled at their response and the push back I received. If bitterness and revenge was in the cards a simple phone call to the local FAA office would have done the trick. I saw an a--hole do that in the past, I have NO intention of acting like him.
I understand that by the time my facility ordered three Tost rings they were on a 3 week back order. Perhaps my comments on this board woke up more than one operator? I hope so.
Have a great day.
Walt
Walt
Don Johnstone[_4_]
June 20th 17, 06:44 AM
At 12:56 11 June 2017, Walt Connelly wrote:
>
[_1_ Wrote:
>> ;948656']There are treatments for PTSD that don't involve the
FAA.
>>
>> The odds of anything rational and positive coming from
involving .GOV is
>> really poor.
>
>Please tell me what treatment is available to a dead tow pilot who
tried
>to release a glider with a Schweizer hook and died as a result of a
well
>documented flaw of that release?
>
>Walt
>
>
>
>
>--
>Walt Connelly
From another thread it has been confirmed that in Australia low tow
is the standard position behind the tug.
Does using low tow offer a solution to the ring jam with a Schweizer
hook given that there is almost no chance of glider getting too high
behind the tug?
Tug upsets should be almost unknown in Australia, are they? If they
are it would seen that we could easily increase tug safety at no cost
whatsoever and do away with the need for expensive modification to
tugs.
Is there a cogent argument against using low tow? The only
difference that I can see, from a tuggies point of view is that he will
find it more difficult to see the glider. Is that important?
Of course the reverse applies, the glider can always see the tug.
Justin Couch
June 20th 17, 09:42 AM
On Tuesday, 20 June 2017 15:45:04 UTC+10, Don Johnstone wrote:
> From another thread it has been confirmed that in Australia low tow
> is the standard position behind the tug.
Definitely. All our training from the first tow is in low position for climb. We'll go high if doing a cross-country tow, and some clubs use high tow for the first couple of hundred feet of the launch, but low is our teaching here.
There is, however, a second factor: All gliders have been mandated to have nose hooks installed when brought into the country. This was instituted in mid 80's after a couple of upset accidents resulting in multiple deaths. It is rare to see a glider with only a belly release. Mandated nose releases as a local requirement were removed a couple of years ago as CS22 effectively mandated them for aerotow certification anyway. No need to duplicate the rules.
Also, I believe Schweizer tow hooks here are illegal. I've only ever seen TOSTs on tugs here. Don't quote me on that though. I've been doing a quick search while writing this up and can't find out either way.
> Does using low tow offer a solution to the ring jam with a Schweizer
> hook given that there is almost no chance of glider getting too high
> behind the tug?
> Tug upsets should be almost unknown in Australia, are they?
I haven't heard of one in the last 30 years or so (I started gliding in 1987). There's been a few ground loops from wing drops in paddocks on CG releases, but nothing resulting in a tug pilot looking at the ground due to kiting.
Chris Rollings[_2_]
June 20th 17, 02:38 PM
The belief that low-tow significantly reduces the risk of sling-shot tug
upsets is mistaken. The trigger is if the glider pitches up to about 30
degrees above the line of the rope. Being in low-tow when that happens
simple makes the sunsequent event take about half a second longer - not
enough extra time to greatly increase the chance of releasing before the
critical point.
At 08:42 20 June 2017, Justin Couch wrote:
>On Tuesday, 20 June 2017 15:45:04 UTC+10, Don Johnstone wrote:
>
>> From another thread it has been confirmed that in Australia low tow=20
>> is the standard position behind the tug.
>
>Definitely. All our training from the first tow is in low position for
>clim=
>b. We'll go high if doing a cross-country tow, and some clubs use high
tow
>=
>for the first couple of hundred feet of the launch, but low is our
>teaching=
> here.=20
>
>There is, however, a second factor: All gliders have been mandated to
have
>=
>nose hooks installed when brought into the country. This was instituted
in
>=
>mid 80's after a couple of upset accidents resulting in multiple deaths.
>It=
> is rare to see a glider with only a belly release. Mandated nose
>releases=
> as a local requirement were removed a couple of years ago as CS22
>effectiv=
>ely mandated them for aerotow certification anyway. No need to duplicate
>th=
>e rules.=20
>
>Also, I believe Schweizer tow hooks here are illegal. I've only ever seen
>T=
>OSTs on tugs here. Don't quote me on that though. I've been doing a
quick
>=
>search while writing this up and can't find out either way.=20
>
>> Does using low tow offer a solution to the ring jam with a Schweizer=20
>> hook given that there is almost no chance of glider getting too high=20
>> behind the tug?=20
>> Tug upsets should be almost unknown in Australia, are they?=20
>
>I haven't heard of one in the last 30 years or so (I started gliding in
>198=
>7). There's been a few ground loops from wing drops in paddocks on CG
>relea=
>ses, but nothing resulting in a tug pilot looking at the ground due to
>kiti=
>ng.
>
Don Johnstone[_4_]
June 20th 17, 05:07 PM
At 13:38 20 June 2017, Chris Rollings wrote:
>The belief that low-tow significantly reduces the risk of sling-shot tu
>upsets is mistaken. The trigger is if the glider pitches up to about 3
>degrees above the line of the rope. Being in low-tow when that
happen
>simple makes the sunsequent event take about half a second longer
- no
>enough extra time to greatly increase the chance of releasing before
th
>critical point.
>
That may be so Chris, but would the start of the sequence be more
obvious to both the glider and towplane pilot? In low tow the tug is
definitely above the glider, the divergent situation should be more
immediately recognisable.
I accept that the statistics in Australia may be skewed by the
requirement for a nose hook but do they show a decrease in the
number of tug upsets?
Is it not worth some study? Are there other challenges to the use of
low tow instead of high tow? Is a procedure which is only marginally
safer still a valid consideration?
Walt Connelly
June 21st 17, 02:20 PM
The argument that low tow might substantially decrease the chances of tug upsets is limited. As was pointed out by a previous poster this might only increase the chance to react by half a second. My personal experience is that in a sudden kiting situation it's happened before you could react. If it is a slowly evolving circumstance you might have a chance to release. There is an altitude below which the outcome will be disastrous no matter what kind of hook is being used.
In my two experiences both gliders had nose hooks. While the CG hook might enhance the kiting incident the nose hook requirements are not going to eliminate it. While I am all for extra training and vigilance the bottom line is that the human element is still in the picture and humans make mistakes even with the best of training. One moment of failure to pay attention on the part of the glider pilot can result in the death or serious injury of the tow pilot.
The Schweizer hook is well documented to be incapable of releasing the glider under certan circumstances. The Tost hook on the other hand does not seem to have these limitations. In virtually every document I have read regarding this it states, "In some towhook systems, the high pressure loading on the towhook causes towhook seizure, and the tow pilot may not be able to release the towline from the towplane. This situation can be critical if it occurs at altitudes below 500 feet above ground level (AGL). Upon losing sight of the towplane, the glider pilot must release immediately." For this reason it is beyond my ability to comprehend why Schweizer hooks are still in use. At a minimum they should be inverted and the release handle should be such that olympic level calesthenics are not necessary for actuation.
My letter is nearing completion and I fully intend to submit it to the FAA. Will it cause disruption to the sport? Perhaps, but the fact is that the SSA and their assigns have demonstrated to me that they are unwilling to step forward in the name of safety and act.
Walt
Retting
June 21st 17, 08:17 PM
Step away from this Walter. Establish your own limitation, what you will accept.
Allow others the same. Trust me on this.
Romeo
Bruce Hoult
June 21st 17, 11:35 PM
On Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 9:43:20 PM UTC+3, Walt Connelly wrote:
> The argument that low tow might substantially decrease the chances of
> tug upsets is limited. As was pointed out by a previous poster this
> might only increase the chance to react by half a second. My personal
> experience is that in a sudden kiting situation it's happened before you
> could react. If it is a slowly evolving circumstance you might have a
> chance to release. There is an altitude below which the outcome will be
> disastrous no matter what kind of hook is being used.
>
> In my two experiences both gliders had nose hooks. While the CG hook
> might enhance the kiting incident the nose hook requirements are not
> going to eliminate it. While I am all for extra training and vigilance
> the bottom line is that the human element is still in the picture and
> humans make mistakes even with the best of training. One moment of
> failure to pay attention on the part of the glider pilot can result in
> the death or serious injury of the tow pilot.
>
> The Schweizer hook is well documented to be incapable of releasing the
> glider under certan circumstances. The Tost hook on the other hand does
> not seem to have these limitations. In virtually every document I have
> read regarding this it states, "In some towhook systems, the high
> pressure loading on the towhook causes towhook seizure, and the tow
> pilot may not be able to release the towline from the towplane. This
> situation can be critical if it occurs at altitudes below 500 feet above
> ground level (AGL). Upon losing sight of the towplane, the glider pilot
> must release immediately." For this reason it is beyond my ability to
> comprehend why Schweizer hooks are still in use. At a minimum they
> should be inverted and the release handle should be such that olympic
> level calesthenics are not necessary for actuation.
>
> My letter is nearing completion and I fully intend to submit it to the
> FAA. Will it cause disruption to the sport? Perhaps, but the fact is
> that the SSA and their assigns have demonstrated to me that they are
> unwilling to step forward in the name of safety and act.
Like others here, I don't have any expectation that involving the FAA will have any good results, and almost certainly not net good results. Quite the opposite.
If I were you, I'd send off a few dozen friendly and informative letters with your experiences and concerns addressed to "The Chief Tow Pilot" at every US gliding organisation I could find the address of.
Right, one potential outcome could be an examination by FAA of towing gliders in general. The likelihood of unintended consequences from your personal crusade will quite probably do far more harm than good. I would agree with the advice of other contributors on this forum to pursue this (if you must) outside of government channels.
Ron Clark
Walt, I understand your desire to help here, but I don't feel this is the way to help. At our club we have 3 towplanes, 2 with tost releases, and one with a Schweizer. Why not all 3, THE FAA! It would be a piece of cake to come up with an appropriate mount for a tost hook on our L-19, but the FAA makes it difficult. As others have suggested, working to make the installation of the tost hook easier, rather than trying to make it harder to use a Schweizer release, would be far more useful. It would require more effort than a letter, but would be very benifisal to the community.
Please consider an alternative course of action.
RR
But...but...
Everybody KNOWS that more Government Involvement and more Regulation is ALWAYS desirable!
I mean, how can you not agree with the "Progressive" party platform? It is for your own good!
" see the light and end the use of Schweizer hooks on tow planes here in the land of the free and the home of the brave."
Let's talk about the implication that the "land of the free and home of the brave" has no business being in a discussion about unwanted and unneeded regulation with no clear and present threat to the soaring public (much less the public as a whole) except in Walt's World.
Andy Blackburn[_3_]
June 22nd 17, 07:43 AM
Here's a thought experiment. It's based on having read the NTSB report for every single accident and fatal accident in soaring over several decades.
Presume that the desired action here is for the FAA to ground towplanes with Schweizer hooks until such time as they are replaced. Further presume that the process will take from weeks to forever - for some towplanes where it is either cost prohibitive or where there is no FAA-approved solution.
If some portion of those grounded towplanes restrict the ability of clubs or commercial operators to launch gliders for anywhere from weeks to forever, then it stands to reason, based on the relative probability of a fatality due to kiting versus the probability of a fatality flying gliders generally, that the most significant live-saving impact of this action would be from simply stopping glider pilots from flying gliders.
I'm not saying if that's a good thing or a bad thing overall. Saving lives is a good thing. It's just a question of what the cost is to get there and whether the view is worth the climb.
Feel free to make assertions about the probabilities. People generally are terrible at estimating the probabilities of rare events. They tend to elevate the probabilities of the risks they think they can control and underestimate the probabilities of the risks they can't control. It leads to the illusion of control - which is comforting.
Andy Blackburn
9B
Walt Connelly
June 22nd 17, 12:52 PM
Step away from this Walter. Establish your own limitation, what you will accept.
Allow others the same. Trust me on this.
Romeo
Romeo, Romeo....
I have already stepped further away than I have wanted to but trust ME on this. If YOU had found yourself 300 feet in the air dangling from a tow rope attached to a glider and unable to release while at full power headed right to the dirt YOU WOULD BE ON MY SIDE IN SPADES. PERIOD, END OF STORY.
WALT
Walt Connelly
June 22nd 17, 12:59 PM
" see the light and end the use of Schweizer hooks on tow planes here in the land of the free and the home of the brave."
Let's talk about the implication that the "land of the free and home of the brave" has no business being in a discussion about unwanted and unneeded regulation with no clear and present threat to the soaring public (much less the public as a whole) except in Walt's World.
"No clear and present threat to the soaring public?" So it appears that the soaring public does not include tow pilots in Mark Mocho's world. It was clear and present enough for some commercial operators who have contacted me to be proactive and go to Tost and release handles up near the throttle. It was clear and present enough for controlling bodies of some countries to mandate the same. Maybe YOU could jump in here and start fabricating handles approved by the FAA?
For a moment when I was looking at the ground there was a house right in my wind screen....of course in MM's world they are not the public as as whole.
Walt
Walt Connelly
June 22nd 17, 01:07 PM
Walt, I understand your desire to help here, but I don't feel this is the way to help. At our club we have 3 towplanes, 2 with tost releases, and one with a Schweizer. Why not all 3, THE FAA! It would be a piece of cake to come up with an appropriate mount for a tost hook on our L-19, but the FAA makes it difficult. As others have suggested, working to make the installation of the tost hook easier, rather than trying to make it harder to use a Schweizer release, would be far more useful. It would require more effort than a letter, but would be very benifisal to the community.
Please consider an alternative course of action.
RR
RR,
The reason my letter (originally a scathing report which I have been told by a college expository writing/English composition teacher was much too long to keep the attention of the average government employee) hasn't gone in is my desire to impact the soaring public as little as possible. Believe me, had I wanted to be an ALPHA HOTEL I could have easily done so. I am not an A&P, I would think that those who are and who frequent the glider world would have a much better chance of working to make the Tost hook installation easier.
Walt
You want to help save towpilots? Write articles for soaring magazine discussing towing safety(not just preaching an equipment solution.) Collect all STCs and 337s for Tost hooks for every plane that has ever towed a glider, build a webpage and put the info there. Add estimated costs of conversions and parts suppliers for the different airplanes. Once you have that info out in the world ask Tost if they'd do a group towhook discount if a bunch of US clubs purchased hooks at the same time. Then organize said group buy. If you collected the info so clubs knew that a Tost conversion cost X, info and parts came from Y, and it will take Z time to complete a lot of more them would make the switch. Or you could hide under the ruse of safety and cry to the gov't to exact revenge on the soaring community for scaring you. The only request to the FAA that would improve towing safety would be asking them to go easy on Tost hook 337s same as they do for shoulder belt installations. But this isn't about safety, no one believes that BS Walt.
Walt Connelly
June 22nd 17, 01:14 PM
Right, one potential outcome could be an examination by FAA of towing gliders in general. The likelihood of unintended consequences from your personal crusade will quite probably do far more harm than good. I would agree with the advice of other contributors on this forum to pursue this (if you must) outside of government channels.
Ron Clark
Mr Clark,
I did as requested make an attempt to pursue this outside government channels. I sent an email to a government liaison of the SSA who told me essentially that since I wasn't a member of the club they would not discuss the matter. So much for the SSA and their committment to safety. Other than acknowledging in bright red letters what might happen when a glider kites on a Schweitzer hook they appear disinterested.
Walt
Dan Marotta
June 22nd 17, 03:05 PM
So much well thought out logic wasted.
Has anyone considered that Walt might, just might, be Lennie reincarnated?
On 6/22/2017 6:13 AM, wrote:
> You want to help save towpilots? Write articles for soaring magazine discussing towing safety(not just preaching an equipment solution.) Collect all STCs and 337s for Tost hooks for every plane that has ever towed a glider, build a webpage and put the info there. Add estimated costs of conversions and parts suppliers for the different airplanes. Once you have that info out in the world ask Tost if they'd do a group towhook discount if a bunch of US clubs purchased hooks at the same time. Then organize said group buy. If you collected the info so clubs knew that a Tost conversion cost X, info and parts came from Y, and it will take Z time to complete a lot of more them would make the switch. Or you could hide under the ruse of safety and cry to the gov't to exact revenge on the soaring community for scaring you. The only request to the FAA that would improve towing safety would be asking them to go easy on Tost hook 337s same as they do for shoulder belt installations. But this isn't about safety, no one believes that BS Walt.
--
Dan, 5J
Renny[_2_]
June 22nd 17, 03:24 PM
On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 8:05:18 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> So much well thought out logic wasted.
>
> Has anyone considered that Walt might, just might, be Lennie reincarnated?
>
> On 6/22/2017 6:13 AM, wrote:
> > You want to help save towpilots? Write articles for soaring magazine discussing towing safety(not just preaching an equipment solution.) Collect all STCs and 337s for Tost hooks for every plane that has ever towed a glider, build a webpage and put the info there. Add estimated costs of conversions and parts suppliers for the different airplanes. Once you have that info out in the world ask Tost if they'd do a group towhook discount if a bunch of US clubs purchased hooks at the same time. Then organize said group buy. If you collected the info so clubs knew that a Tost conversion cost X, info and parts came from Y, and it will take Z time to complete a lot of more them would make the switch. Or you could hide under the ruse of safety and cry to the gov't to exact revenge on the soaring community for scaring you. The only request to the FAA that would improve towing safety would be asking them to go easy on Tost hook 337s same as they do for shoulder belt installations. But this isn't about safety, no one believes that BS Walt.
>
> --
> Dan, 5J
This long string of responses contains many excellent and well thought out comments from many knowledgeable and experienced folks. They include many fine recommendations to consider on this issue, but I truly believe that writing this letter to the FAA may very well do a lot more harm than good.
It reminds me of this famous proverb....
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions..."
Renny
Bruce Hoult
June 22nd 17, 04:59 PM
On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 3:43:08 PM UTC+3, Walt Connelly wrote:
> Retting;949394 Wrote:
> > Step away from this Walter. Establish your own limitation, what you will
> > accept.
> > Allow others the same. Trust me on this.
> >
> > Romeo
>
> Romeo, Romeo....
>
> I have already stepped further away than I have wanted to but trust
> ME on this. If YOU had found yourself 300 feet in the air dangling from
> a tow rope attached to a glider and unable to release while at full
> power headed right to the dirt YOU WOULD BE ON MY SIDE IN SPADES.
> PERIOD, END OF STORY.
We're on your side. And on the side of other tow pilots hauling our arses into the air.
If all tow pilots at an organisation refuse to tow with Schweizer hooks then they'll get replaced pretty quickly.
On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 8:43:10 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
> Before I send my letter to the FAA I'd like to ask if anyone has ever
> attempted to get them to see the light and end the use of Schweizer
> hooks on tow planes here in the land of the free and the home of the
> brave. It is a well known fact and clearly stated in the SSA/SSF and
> FAA circulars and literature that under certain conditions (the exact
> condition that the tow pilot will need to release) that it can be near
> impossible to release the glider. Tow planes have crashed, lives have
> been lost and at the same time everyone knows that this is a dangerous
> situation.
>
> Along with the conversion to Tost hooks I'd like to see it made
> mandatory that the release handles be up high, near the throttle and
> quickly available to the tow pilot with adequate mechanical advantage. I
> can assure you that one does not have the time to go ducking and
> reaching and feeling for a handle down on the floor of a Pawnee while
> the glider kites in back of you.
>
> The idea of requiring nose hooks on all gliders does not seem to be
> feasible although it has been brought up to me as something that needs
> to be addressed. My understanding is that the CG hook is meant for
> ground/winch launch operations, however I have probably done thousands
> of CG hook aero tows with no problem. For the most part these are ships
> being flown by the best and most aware pilots. I'd like more input from
> experience pilots on this point.
>
> I currently have a number of highly experienced pilots from all levels
> of aviation in agreement with me and willing to help me in this cause.
>
>
> If one life is saved as a result of this endeavor then it will be well
> worth it.
>
> Walt Connelly
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly
On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 8:43:10 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
> Before I send my letter to the FAA I'd like to ask if anyone has ever
> attempted to get them to see the light and end the use of Schweizer
> hooks on tow planes here in the land of the free and the home of the
> brave. It is a well known fact and clearly stated in the SSA/SSF and
> FAA circulars and literature that under certain conditions (the exact
> condition that the tow pilot will need to release) that it can be near
> impossible to release the glider. Tow planes have crashed, lives have
> been lost and at the same time everyone knows that this is a dangerous
> situation.
>
> Along with the conversion to Tost hooks I'd like to see it made
> mandatory that the release handles be up high, near the throttle and
> quickly available to the tow pilot with adequate mechanical advantage. I
> can assure you that one does not have the time to go ducking and
> reaching and feeling for a handle down on the floor of a Pawnee while
> the glider kites in back of you.
>
> The idea of requiring nose hooks on all gliders does not seem to be
> feasible although it has been brought up to me as something that needs
> to be addressed. My understanding is that the CG hook is meant for
> ground/winch launch operations, however I have probably done thousands
> of CG hook aero tows with no problem. For the most part these are ships
> being flown by the best and most aware pilots. I'd like more input from
> experience pilots on this point.
>
> I currently have a number of highly experienced pilots from all levels
> of aviation in agreement with me and willing to help me in this cause.
>
>
> If one life is saved as a result of this endeavor then it will be well
> worth it.
>
> Walt Connelly
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly
On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 8:43:10 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
> Before I send my letter to the FAA I'd like to ask if anyone has ever
> attempted to get them to see the light and end the use of Schweizer
> hooks on tow planes here in the land of the free and the home of the
> brave. It is a well known fact and clearly stated in the SSA/SSF and
> FAA circulars and literature that under certain conditions (the exact
> condition that the tow pilot will need to release) that it can be near
> impossible to release the glider. Tow planes have crashed, lives have
> been lost and at the same time everyone knows that this is a dangerous
> situation.
>
> Along with the conversion to Tost hooks I'd like to see it made
> mandatory that the release handles be up high, near the throttle and
> quickly available to the tow pilot with adequate mechanical advantage. I
> can assure you that one does not have the time to go ducking and
> reaching and feeling for a handle down on the floor of a Pawnee while
> the glider kites in back of you.
>
> The idea of requiring nose hooks on all gliders does not seem to be
> feasible although it has been brought up to me as something that needs
> to be addressed. My understanding is that the CG hook is meant for
> ground/winch launch operations, however I have probably done thousands
> of CG hook aero tows with no problem. For the most part these are ships
> being flown by the best and most aware pilots. I'd like more input from
> experience pilots on this point.
>
> I currently have a number of highly experienced pilots from all levels
> of aviation in agreement with me and willing to help me in this cause.
>
>
> If one life is saved as a result of this endeavor then it will be well
> worth it.
>
> Walt Connelly
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly
Walt,
I don't know how long you have been in the "Aviation Community", but I have been a pilot for over 58 years, a flight instructor for some 46 years. Have owned 8 aircraft and 2 gliders, am also a tow pilot.
Back in the "Old" days, be had FAA inspectors that knew what was going on in the real World. Now a days, they are more worried about justifying their jobs and creating regulations.
There would be nothing positive to come about complaining or explaining your view point of the "hook" to the FAA. Now if you want to design and submit, get approved via STC, offer it for sale at a reasonable price, you would be accomplishing something. But, this takes time and a lot of engineering.. Instead of complaining, which is really easy, look at the real World, and see what you can do, not what the FAA can do, which they can't.
Tom Irlbeck
I am sure that the FAA already has wind of this situation.
To the soaring community at large:
I have been somewhat disappointed in reading many of the posts related to this thread. From what I have read -- Walt has identified what he feels is a significant life threatening safety problem effecting our highly valued tow pilots. He appears to be trying to get the soaring community to voluntarily install Tost Tow Hooks (or some other acceptable towing mechanism) onto ALL of our tugs to protect them. From what I understand, he is also questioning the reasonableness of contacting the FAA via a letter if no significant action is taken to self-police ourselves regarding this issue.
I understand not wanting to involve the FAA in this matter and I agree with many of the unfavorable outcomes that might result if Walt actually does decide to mail that letter to them. However, I do not feel that the solution is to tell Walt what HE should do instead of mailing that letter. That is not likely to solve the problem to Waltโs satisfaction.
Many of the suggestions made so far are really good ones โ but they are likely beyond the means of one man to accomplish. Is anyone in the soaring community willing to actually help Walt solve what he perceives to be a problem?
Does anyone have a good FSDO contact who would understand the benefits of
establishing a field approval procedure for an L-19 and other tug types?
Does anyone have the experience to make progress on an STC to install
hitches on the tugs that do not currently have any paperwork available?
Can the SSA try to get some kind of Tow Hitch Installation Waiver to
upgrade our membershipโs tugs?
Is there anyone in the soaring community with the manufacturing experience
(M&M fabrication in NM and K&L Soaring in NY come immediately to mind) that
would be interested in making the hardware required for the various tugs at
an acceptable price?
Do any of our soaring supply houses have a good contact at Tost for the
โgroup buyโ idea?
Is there even a single club or commercial operation that previously had
no plans to switch โ but based on this thread has actually made plans to
install an improved tow hitch? I am sure it would give Walt a great deal
of comfort to know you listened and are doing your part to help save a life.
(note to Walt โ the tugs at all the towing operations that I soar from were
all upgraded to Tost Releases years ago and every tow I have given to fellow
club members has been from a tug using a Tost release! )
I would respectfully suggest that if the soaring community does not want Walt to send that letter โ they should show him some kind of positive actions is being taken within the soaring community itself to address the problem. After seeing a windshield full of ground at low altitude and feeling helpless -- It sounds like trying to convince him that we do not have a problem is not going to be very successful.
If the soaring community does not step up and prove to Waltโs satisfaction that something positive is being done then the gamble we are collectively taking is that he will not actually send that letter or that the FAA will not over-respond to the situation. To my knowledge only one Blanik L-13 had an in-flight wing failure and the entire world-wide fleet was quickly grounded. It is easy to imagine a similar outcome here โ after all the release being discussed does in fact have a documented safety problem.
While it is probably true that โsafety does not sell,โ we all are safer for driving cars with seat belts, air bags, crumple zones, ABS brakes, etc. Maybe the same is true here too. A lot of tugs have already been converted to Tost Towing hardware. Other conversions are probably in the planning stages for the off-season. This thread may be motivating others to upgrade too. Maybe the soaring community together can come up with a solution for the tugs without any legal means of upgrading. Maybe we can convince Walt that we are actively trying to fix the problem ourselves -- as a group or even one towing operation at a time. Maybe he will see that we are really trying but it is not possible to get all the remaining tugs upgraded overnight and that it might take a considerable amount of time to resolve this fully.
Maybe we can all be a bit safer one day because of Waltโs experience of feeling helpless in a tow plane.
Respectfully
Steve McLaughlin
On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 12:33:35 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> To the soaring community at large:
>
> I have been somewhat disappointed in reading many of the posts related to this thread. From what I have read -- Walt has identified what he feels is a significant life threatening safety problem effecting our highly valued tow pilots. He appears to be trying to get the soaring community to voluntarily install Tost Tow Hooks (or some other acceptable towing mechanism) onto ALL of our tugs to protect them. From what I understand, he is also questioning the reasonableness of contacting the FAA via a letter if no significant action is taken to self-police ourselves regarding this issue.
>
> I understand not wanting to involve the FAA in this matter and I agree with many of the unfavorable outcomes that might result if Walt actually does decide to mail that letter to them. However, I do not feel that the solution is to tell Walt what HE should do instead of mailing that letter. That is not likely to solve the problem to Waltโs satisfaction.
>
> Many of the suggestions made so far are really good ones โ but they are likely beyond the means of one man to accomplish. Is anyone in the soaring community willing to actually help Walt solve what he perceives to be a problem?
>
> Does anyone have a good FSDO contact who would understand the benefits of
> establishing a field approval procedure for an L-19 and other tug types?
>
> Does anyone have the experience to make progress on an STC to install
> hitches on the tugs that do not currently have any paperwork available?
>
> Can the SSA try to get some kind of Tow Hitch Installation Waiver to
> upgrade our membershipโs tugs?
>
> Is there anyone in the soaring community with the manufacturing experience
> (M&M fabrication in NM and K&L Soaring in NY come immediately to mind) that
> would be interested in making the hardware required for the various tugs at
> an acceptable price?
>
> Do any of our soaring supply houses have a good contact at Tost for the
> โgroup buyโ idea?
>
> Is there even a single club or commercial operation that previously had
> no plans to switch โ but based on this thread has actually made plans to
> install an improved tow hitch? I am sure it would give Walt a great deal
> of comfort to know you listened and are doing your part to help save a life.
> (note to Walt โ the tugs at all the towing operations that I soar from were
> all upgraded to Tost Releases years ago and every tow I have given to fellow
> club members has been from a tug using a Tost release! )
>
> I would respectfully suggest that if the soaring community does not want Walt to send that letter โ they should show him some kind of positive actions is being taken within the soaring community itself to address the problem. After seeing a windshield full of ground at low altitude and feeling helpless -- It sounds like trying to convince him that we do not have a problem is not going to be very successful.
>
> If the soaring community does not step up and prove to Waltโs satisfaction that something positive is being done then the gamble we are collectively taking is that he will not actually send that letter or that the FAA will not over-respond to the situation. To my knowledge only one Blanik L-13 had an in-flight wing failure and the entire world-wide fleet was quickly grounded. It is easy to imagine a similar outcome here โ after all the release being discussed does in fact have a documented safety problem.
>
> While it is probably true that โsafety does not sell,โ we all are safer for driving cars with seat belts, air bags, crumple zones, ABS brakes, etc. Maybe the same is true here too. A lot of tugs have already been converted to Tost Towing hardware. Other conversions are probably in the planning stages for the off-season. This thread may be motivating others to upgrade too. Maybe the soaring community together can come up with a solution for the tugs without any legal means of upgrading. Maybe we can convince Walt that we are actively trying to fix the problem ourselves -- as a group or even one towing operation at a time. Maybe he will see that we are really trying but it is not possible to get all the remaining tugs upgraded overnight and that it might take a considerable amount of time to resolve this fully.
>
> Maybe we can all be a bit safer one day because of Waltโs experience of feeling helpless in a tow plane.
>
> Respectfully
>
> Steve McLaughlin
Every pilot has the right, if not the duty, to contact the FAA about potential safety issues. I have done so myself by phone and by email, multiple times. Walt is no different except he sought input from the soaring community before sending the letter. You are more than welcome to submit your own letters rebutting Walt's. In any case, any action by the FAA would require a change in the regulations, which includes the opportunity for public comment. I regard this as a healthy process and overt actions to suppress it as, perhaps, well intentioned but wrong headed. Does anybody really think that no one from the FAA reads RAS?
Tom
Walt's concern is valid. He's identified a risk, albeit one that we've known about for decades.
I think Andy's post is spot on: the most effective way to save lives in soaring is to stop flying. If we reject that Draconian solution, everything else involves balancing risk vs. reward. We can never reduce the risk to zero, and anyone who wishes to can stop flying right now. The goal should be to reduce or mitigate the risks we can at a reasonable cost and continue to be vigilant about those that remain.
To me there are two questions:
1. How serious is the risk of using Schweizer tow releases? There are two components: a) how likely is it that a serious upset can occur?; and b) what are the consequences if it does? Statistics seem to indicate it's very unlikely, though not zero. The consequences if it does occur depend on the skill of the pilots, the altitude of the tow combination, the breaking strength of the rope, the specific installation, and probably some other factors, and range from a few exciting seconds to a potential fatality. I suspect the total risk as I've defined it is very small. But it's significant enough (especially if you're a tow pilot) that you would like to reduce it.
2. How to manage this risk? Steve offers a series of actions, most of which require someone to take the lead. Walt is "offering" to take the lead because it's the only thing he sees that he can do. Whether he's serious or terribly misguided in calling in the Feds, he's certainly gotten our attention.. :)
And, yes, the FAA read RAS just like they used to read Charlie Spratt's posts about sailplane racing. Years ago, one of those triggered a visit from two knowledgeable-but-concerned employees at a Western contest site the day after Charlie reported, ironically, on a non-accident towing incident.
I should add that insulting others on social media because they don't agree with you doesn't work very well. So who wants to take the lead and show that soaring can manage this risk intelligently?
I'm not even a power pilot, much less a tow pilot.
Chip Bearden
"JB"
Paul Agnew
June 22nd 17, 10:52 PM
I'll ask again...why isn't the Soaring Safety Foundation taking the lead on this issue? I find it perplexing.
Paul A.
Mike C
June 23rd 17, 12:08 AM
On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 3:54:47 PM UTC-6, Paul Agnew wrote:
> I'll ask again...why isn't the Soaring Safety Foundation taking the lead on this issue? I find it perplexing.
>
> Paul A.
How many deaths, accidents or injuries have been recorded due to the Schweizer tow release over the past 60 years? A substantial number would probably initiate some concern.
Mike
John Cochrane[_3_]
June 23rd 17, 01:22 AM
The obvious right answer here is for the FAA to expedite the paperwork to replace Schweitzer hooks with Tost hooks. I'm not an expert, but it would seem that a letter from headquarters to field offices saying, if there is a legal Schweitzer hook in place, accept a 337 to replace it with Tost. Why not write a letter asking for that positive step? Dear FAA. There is a safety problem. There is a solution. Your paperwork is what makes it hard for people to solve the problem. Please fix.
Or am I, of all people, being incredibly naive about FAA regulatory inertia?
John Cochrane
So who wants to take the lead and show that soaring can manage this risk intelligently?
Statistics show we are doing OK managing the known failure mode of Elmira Death Hooks. Before anyone gets the vapors over 'known failure mode' remember everything that moves has a known failure mode of some sort. How about we write a letter to the FAA asking them to ban low altitude skidding turns? That'd spare some blood. Or we could go for the really low hanging fruit and get the gov to mandate seat belts and helmet use in our golf carts. Golf carts kill more people in a year than Elmira Death Hooks have ever. Which brings up a funny for the happy gov't regulation folks. If you have juniors working your line, know it is illegal in some states for those under 18 to operate a golf cart. Ain't safety mandated by law great?
bumper[_4_]
June 23rd 17, 06:27 AM
I searched using terms like reusable, high load, quick release, and found an interesting product called the "Sea Catch TR5".
Not cheap, there are other models at different capacities and price. The TR5 max load is 1.66 tons and at max load, release pull is 30 lbs. Cost is $425, so not exactly cheap, but have you priced a release hook lately?
Of course it's not tested or approved either.
http://www.seacatch.com/tr5refurb-after.jpg
On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 1:27:08 AM UTC-4, bumper wrote:
> I searched using terms like reusable, high load, quick release, and found an interesting product called the "Sea Catch TR5".
>
> Not cheap, there are other models at different capacities and price. The TR5 max load is 1.66 tons and at max load, release pull is 30 lbs. Cost is $425, so not exactly cheap, but have you priced a release hook lately?
>
> Of course it's not tested or approved either.
>
> http://www.seacatch.com/tr5refurb-after.jpg
Three ring releases are brilliant and cheap. Not approved and could easily be hooked up wrong by the untrained. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-ring_release_system Long history of working when it has to.
Walt Connelly
June 23rd 17, 01:47 PM
On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 3:43:08 PM UTC+3, Walt Connelly wrote:
Retting;949394 Wrote:
Step away from this Walter. Establish your own limitation, what you will
accept.
Allow others the same. Trust me on this.
Romeo
Romeo, Romeo....
I have already stepped further away than I have wanted to but trust
ME on this. If YOU had found yourself 300 feet in the air dangling from
a tow rope attached to a glider and unable to release while at full
power headed right to the dirt YOU WOULD BE ON MY SIDE IN SPADES.
PERIOD, END OF STORY.
We're on your side. And on the side of other tow pilots hauling our arses into the air.
If all tow pilots at an organisation refuse to tow with Schweizer hooks then they'll get replaced pretty quickly.
I have received many responses both public and private from tow pilots who agree with my position. Unfortunately many of them say they need the few bucks they make flying tow to make ends meet. I understand and fortunately I did not need the money. Any tow pilot towing with a Schweizer hook AND a handle that is not immediately available for release is playing Russian roulette. Sure, the chances of it happening are low but tell that to the guy at Turf whose accident and death initiated the inverted hook long, long ago.
Walt
Walt Connelly
June 23rd 17, 02:04 PM
;949446']The obvious right answer here is for the FAA to expedite the paperwork to replace Schweitzer hooks with Tost hooks. I'm not an expert, but it would seem that a letter from headquarters to field offices saying, if there is a legal Schweitzer hook in place, accept a 337 to replace it with Tost. Why not write a letter asking for that positive step? Dear FAA. There is a safety problem. There is a solution. Your paperwork is what makes it hard for people to solve the problem. Please fix.
Or am I, of all people, being incredibly naive about FAA regulatory inertia?
John Cochrane
I'm no expert either John and I am trying to write this letter with the purpose of limiting the negative effect it might have on the sport. I try to ignore the flippant, blas้, self serving responses and give thought to some of the more intelligent suggestions. The one thing I am NOT willing to do is let this go. I have learned much in my analysis and have much more to do. You are right, paperwork is often the problem.
The obvious answer is for the SSA and SSF to step forward and take charge of this situation, my contact with them proves that they have no intention of doing so. The British Gliding Association did so long, long ago. While accidents still happen their mandates at least give the tow pilot a fighting chance when he needs it most.
Question: Are you the Economist? If so I read your blog and papers on occasion.
Walt
Walt Connelly
June 23rd 17, 02:12 PM
I'll ask again...why isn't the Soaring Safety Foundation taking the lead on this issue? I find it perplexing.
Paul A.
Paul,
The SSA made their position crystal clear to me thru their government liaison representative. I'm not a member of the club.....
Walt
Paul Agnew
June 23rd 17, 02:44 PM
How many unreported and undocumented near tragedies have been averted at the last minute?
We tend to hide our mishaps and shrug them off as singular events, but Walt had two in the same week! Even so, we all seem to want him to count his blessings and forget about it rather than recognize a possible harbinger of a major safety issue that should be carefully reviewed.
Paul A.
This topic is complex, it probably is appropriate to break it down into the component issues. I'll limit this response to the Schweizer tow release mechanism used on many tow planes.
It is well understood if the glider gets too high during the aerotow, excessive loads on the towplane's Schweizer tow release can make it difficult and even impossible for the tow pilot to operate the release.
This can be safely simulated on the ground by simply connecting a tow rope to the release mechanism, then lifting up on the rope while someone operates the release mechanism from the towpane's cockpit.
The Tost release mechanism is not affected by vertical or horizontal loads imposed by a glider flying in an out of bounds towing position.
The Schweizer tow release, like all other mechanisms require routine maintenance and overhaul. One of the first questions to ask is when was your towplane's release mechanism (regardless of brand) last overhauled? My guess is few, if any towplane release mechanisms are ever overhauled.
Here at Ridge Soaring Gliderport, we faced this problem and contacted our local FAA office. They sent a team of inspectors.
The conversation ended with the FAA saying, "Now let's see what you want to do."
"You want to replace an FAA approved, Schweizer tow release with an approved Tost tow release."
The inspector finished with, "No FAA paperwork needed."
A simple mechanic's logbook entry was all that was necessary
Tom Knauff
Paul Agnew
June 23rd 17, 05:15 PM
Along with Mr. Knauff's experience, we should note that the Tost release installation is included in Chapter 8 of the FAA Advisory Circular AC 13.2B for standard repair and maintenance. With the AC in hand, I can't see why the FAA would give anyone any grief over installing it using standard practices.
The same chapter also shows inverted Schweizer hooks - which should be mandatory based on what I've learned in this thread.
Paul A.
On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 8:43:10 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
> Before I send my letter to the FAA I'd like to ask if anyone has ever
> attempted to get them to see the light and end the use of Schweizer
> hooks on tow planes here in the land of the free and the home of the
> brave. It is a well known fact and clearly stated in the SSA/SSF and
> FAA circulars and literature that under certain conditions (the exact
> condition that the tow pilot will need to release) that it can be near
> impossible to release the glider. Tow planes have crashed, lives have
> been lost and at the same time everyone knows that this is a dangerous
> situation.
>
> Along with the conversion to Tost hooks I'd like to see it made
> mandatory that the release handles be up high, near the throttle and
> quickly available to the tow pilot with adequate mechanical advantage. I
> can assure you that one does not have the time to go ducking and
> reaching and feeling for a handle down on the floor of a Pawnee while
> the glider kites in back of you.
>
> The idea of requiring nose hooks on all gliders does not seem to be
> feasible although it has been brought up to me as something that needs
> to be addressed. My understanding is that the CG hook is meant for
> ground/winch launch operations, however I have probably done thousands
> of CG hook aero tows with no problem. For the most part these are ships
> being flown by the best and most aware pilots. I'd like more input from
> experience pilots on this point.
>
> I currently have a number of highly experienced pilots from all levels
> of aviation in agreement with me and willing to help me in this cause.
>
>
> If one life is saved as a result of this endeavor then it will be well
> worth it.
>
> Walt Connelly
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly
Back in the late 70's I witnessed an incident that almost became tragic for both the tow pilot and the glider pilot. Location was at the old Kendall Gliderport SW of Miami, and was owned by Mary GAffney.
Rudy was the owner of the operation and was towing a 233 on a pattern tow when the glider pilot kited after the glider pilot had not actually pulled the release, but turned in an upward angle. Suddenly the tow plane was in a spin, with the glider attached and they were both hurling toward the ground.. Somehow the glider released and Rudy was able to recover before slamming into the ground. I remember Rudy saying that he could not get the release to function because of the heavy load placed upon the assembly. Bob Youngblood
Walt Connelly
June 24th 17, 10:52 AM
This topic is complex, it probably is appropriate to break it down into the component issues. I'll limit this response to the Schweizer tow release mechanism used on many tow planes.
It is well understood if the glider gets too high during the aerotow, excessive loads on the towplane's Schweizer tow release can make it difficult and even impossible for the tow pilot to operate the release.
This can be safely simulated on the ground by simply connecting a tow rope to the release mechanism, then lifting up on the rope while someone operates the release mechanism from the towpane's cockpit.
The Tost release mechanism is not affected by vertical or horizontal loads imposed by a glider flying in an out of bounds towing position.
The Schweizer tow release, like all other mechanisms require routine maintenance and overhaul. One of the first questions to ask is when was your towplane's release mechanism (regardless of brand) last overhauled? My guess is few, if any towplane release mechanisms are ever overhauled.
Here at Ridge Soaring Gliderport, we faced this problem and contacted our local FAA office. They sent a team of inspectors.
The conversation ended with the FAA saying, "Now let's see what you want to do."
"You want to replace an FAA approved, Schweizer tow release with an approved Tost tow release."
The inspector finished with, "No FAA paperwork needed."
A simple mechanic's logbook entry was all that was necessary
Tom Knauff
Thank you for a cogent and succinct response, your actions display a proactive approach to the problem. Others would have me believe that it takes an act of Congress and six months of paperwork to change from Schweizer to Tost.
In your article on "Launch Emergencies" you state that the odds are 50/50 of something going bad on each launch. Either it will or it wont. Experiencing something go bad on a launch such as what happened to me will convince any tow pilot of the imperative need to have a positive and unfettered chance to release the glider. As you said, the Tost release mechanism is not affected by vertical or horizontal loads imposed by a glider flying in an out of bounds towing position. Clearly the Scnweizer hook is affected by such conditions rendering it useless.
In a low, severe kiting incident such as mine the tow pilot must react in an instant. Anything that delays that reaction can result in a catastrophy. Relying on the rope to break under such circumstances is not a good alternative to a positive release mechanism. Any commercial operator or club still operating with a Schweizer hook and/or a release handle not conveniently available to the pilot is playing Russian roulette with the life of their tow pilot.
Walt
The death toll doesn't match your hyperbole
> In your article on "Launch Emergencies" you state that the odds are
> 50/50 of something going bad on each launch. Either it will or it
> wont. Experiencing something go bad on a launch such as what happened to
> me will convince any tow pilot of the imperative need to have a positive
> and unfettered chance to release the glider. As you said, the Tost
> release mechanism is not affected by vertical or horizontal loads
> imposed by a glider flying in an out of bounds towing position. Clearly
> the Scnweizer hook is affected by such conditions rendering it useless.
>
>
> In a low, severe kiting incident such as mine the tow pilot must
> react in an instant. Anything that delays that reaction can result in a
> catastrophy. Relying on the rope to break under such circumstances is
> not a good alternative to a positive release mechanism. Any commercial
> operator or club still operating with a Schweizer hook and/or a release
> handle not conveniently available to the pilot is playing Russian
> roulette with the life of their tow pilot.
>
>
> Walt
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly
Walt Connelly
June 25th 17, 02:21 PM
The death toll doesn't match your hyperbole
In your article on "Launch Emergencies" you state that the odds are
50/50 of something going bad on each launch. Either it will or it
wont. Experiencing something go bad on a launch such as what happened to
me will convince any tow pilot of the imperative need to have a positive
and unfettered chance to release the glider. As you said, the Tost
release mechanism is not affected by vertical or horizontal loads
imposed by a glider flying in an out of bounds towing position. Clearly
the Scnweizer hook is affected by such conditions rendering it useless.
In a low, severe kiting incident such as mine the tow pilot must
react in an instant. Anything that delays that reaction can result in a
catastrophy. Relying on the rope to break under such circumstances is
not a good alternative to a positive release mechanism. Any commercial
operator or club still operating with a Schweizer hook and/or a release
handle not conveniently available to the pilot is playing Russian
roulette with the life of their tow pilot.
Walt
--
Walt Connelly
"The death toll doesn't match my hyperbole?" How many deaths would it take to convince you GREGG? I was a second or two from being one of them but I am alive and letting it be known that this system does NOT work under severe circumstances as the FAA and SSA well know.
I have identified enough deaths clearly attributable to this malfunction to make my case. As I have noted time and time again the SSA and the FAA in their publications and Advisory Circulars clearly indicate (the SSA indication is in RED) that under certain conditions the release may not work. It is exactly under those conditions when it needs to work the most and if it doesn't the result can be fatal. I was there, within a second or two of hitting the ground when the rope broke, not something one can count on every time an idiot kites on you at low altitude.
My recommendations will address proper position of release handles, increasing mechanical advantage of these handles and at a minimum, inverting the Schweizer hook for which there is an STC or installing Tost releases on tow planes expected to tow gliders that exceed 1500 lbs maximum gross weight. It is my understanding that these glider exceed the limits of the Schweizer hook regardless of their installation.
I can listen to all the weak, anectdotal comments about how "a Schweizer hook saved my uncle Bill." That's what it's supposed to do but when it does what it's NOT supposed to do, FAIL, there is a problem that needs to be addressed. I can listen to "I have 30K hours flying and I always knew where the release was." I know where it was too, do you think I'm that big an idiot? Or "you are waiting too long to pull the release." Obviously this comment is from someone who has NOT experienced an instantaneous kiting situation. Not all kiting situations are slowly evolving ones that you can see begin in the mirror, they can be sudden and severe and any thing that delays the chances of release from the towplane need to be fixed. Need I go on?
Walt
Walt Connelly
June 25th 17, 02:44 PM
On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 8:43:10 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
Before I send my letter to the FAA I'd like to ask if anyone has ever
attempted to get them to see the light and end the use of Schweizer
hooks on tow planes here in the land of the free and the home of the
brave. It is a well known fact and clearly stated in the SSA/SSF and
FAA circulars and literature that under certain conditions (the exact
condition that the tow pilot will need to release) that it can be near
impossible to release the glider. Tow planes have crashed, lives have
been lost and at the same time everyone knows that this is a dangerous
situation.
Along with the conversion to Tost hooks I'd like to see it made
mandatory that the release handles be up high, near the throttle and
quickly available to the tow pilot with adequate mechanical advantage. I
can assure you that one does not have the time to go ducking and
reaching and feeling for a handle down on the floor of a Pawnee while
the glider kites in back of you.
The idea of requiring nose hooks on all gliders does not seem to be
feasible although it has been brought up to me as something that needs
to be addressed. My understanding is that the CG hook is meant for
ground/winch launch operations, however I have probably done thousands
of CG hook aero tows with no problem. For the most part these are ships
being flown by the best and most aware pilots. I'd like more input from
experience pilots on this point.
I currently have a number of highly experienced pilots from all levels
of aviation in agreement with me and willing to help me in this cause.
If one life is saved as a result of this endeavor then it will be well
worth it.
Walt Connelly
--
Walt Connelly
Walt,
I don't know how long you have been in the "Aviation Community", but I have been a pilot for over 58 years, a flight instructor for some 46 years. Have owned 8 aircraft and 2 gliders, am also a tow pilot.
Back in the "Old" days, be had FAA inspectors that knew what was going on in the real World. Now a days, they are more worried about justifying their jobs and creating regulations.
There would be nothing positive to come about complaining or explaining your view point of the "hook" to the FAA. Now if you want to design and submit, get approved via STC, offer it for sale at a reasonable price, you would be accomplishing something. But, this takes time and a lot of engineering.. Instead of complaining, which is really easy, look at the real World, and see what you can do, not what the FAA can do, which they can't.
Tom Irlbeck
Well Tom, I'm not sure how long it would take for me to have been in the "Aviation Community" to have a handle on what happens when a glider kites at 350 feet in the wink of an eye. Your suggestion that I design, submit and get approved via STC (for what?) might be feasable if I was a mechanical engineer. That being said there is an STC for an inverted Schweizer hook which at a minimum should be the standard for every facility flying with such an apparatus. Why has this not been done? The SSA is behind the power curve on this one for sure.
So you think I am "complaining?" If that's how you wish to see it then fine, you bet your ass I am "complaining." But YOU don't have the right to bet MY ass or the ass of the next tow pilot who finds himself trying to actuate a release mechanism which is well documented in both the FAA and SSA literature to fail under adverse conditions, the very condition in which I found myself.
As I recall you came into SLGP in a small, blue homebuilt painted like a Navy airplane. I was the guy who towed you and the guy you asked to talk to your new tow pilot. Hope he took my advice.
Walt
Dan Marotta
June 25th 17, 04:49 PM
If it was really 50-50 nobody would be flying. Did that statistic come
from MSNBC or Johnny Depp?
On 6/24/2017 9:44 PM, wrote:
> The death toll doesn't match your hyperbole
>
>> In your article on "Launch Emergencies" you state that the odds are
>> 50/50 of something going bad on each launch. Either it will or it
>> wont. Experiencing something go bad on a launch such as what happened to
>> me will convince any tow pilot of the imperative need to have a positive
>> and unfettered chance to release the glider. As you said, the Tost
>> release mechanism is not affected by vertical or horizontal loads
>> imposed by a glider flying in an out of bounds towing position. Clearly
>> the Scnweizer hook is affected by such conditions rendering it useless.
>>
>>
>> In a low, severe kiting incident such as mine the tow pilot must
>> react in an instant. Anything that delays that reaction can result in a
>> catastrophy. Relying on the rope to break under such circumstances is
>> not a good alternative to a positive release mechanism. Any commercial
>> operator or club still operating with a Schweizer hook and/or a release
>> handle not conveniently available to the pilot is playing Russian
>> roulette with the life of their tow pilot.
>>
>>
>> Walt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Walt Connelly
--
Dan, 5J
Don Johnstone[_4_]
June 25th 17, 07:29 PM
At 03:44 25 June 2017, wrote:
>The death toll doesn't match your hyperbole
>
How many pilots have to die before you act, give me a number.
Walt Connelly
June 25th 17, 09:09 PM
[QUOTE=Dan Marotta;949727]If it was really 50-50 nobody would be flying. Did that statistic come
from MSNBC or Johnny Depp?
Actually it was in an article from Tom Knauff called "Launching Emergencies." I read everything I can find on the subject. I saw the humor, the tongue in cheek of what he said, did you not?
http://www.eglider.org/NewsArticles/launchingemergencies.htm
Walt
On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 2:30:04 PM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:
> At 03:44 25 June 2017, wrote:
> >The death toll doesn't match your hyperbole
> >
> How many pilots have to die before you act, give me a number.
Couple of posts back I suggested several acts that are more productive than squealing to the teacher. You want a number, I'll give you an equation: When the yearly towpilot death toll = the yearly glider pilot death toll. Glider pilot lives matter too. Simple solution is to write letters demanding the FAA ban gliding. All those glider pilot's lives and by default towpilot's lives saved. Brilliant.
A wee bit disingenuous there Walt. Here is the quote 'The odds are 50/50 of something bad happening on each launch. Either it will or it wonโt!' Article goes on to list 41 possible tow emergencies, The Schweizer hook is not named and might be a complicating factor in one of the 41. Doesn't help your case. Now of course there is a way to eliminate all 41, stay home. But you don't want safety, personal or for everyone else. You want to get recess canceled because you got a wedgie on the playground.
On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 8:43:09 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
> Dan Marotta;949727 Wrote:
> > If it was really 50-50 nobody would be flying. Did that statistic come
> >
> > from MSNBC or Johnny Depp?
> >
> > Actually it was in an article from Tom Knauff called "Launching
> > Emergencies." I read everything I can find on the subject. I saw the
> > humor, the tongue in cheek of what he said, did you not?
> >
> > http://www.eglider.org/NewsArticles/launchingemergencies.htm
> >
> > Walt
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly
Walt, your action of going to the FAA with this, is assuming that clubs and commercial operators are not interested in fixing this. As I said in a previous post, we have addressed this on two of our three towplanes. With the recent info that has surfaced in this thread, I will bring this to our board and we will try to get our L-19 converted to tost. I am sure if you could aid in bringing that info, or collecting anything that would help for the conversion, many if not all would make the same move. We did not because (I hope) we were operating on bad information that the FAA was going to stand in our way.
Do you feel that clubs and commercial operations would need to be forced to make this change, or do you think with your help, you could assist in this change? Personally I think many would do this, we have no interest in reducing safety for our towpilots. And I expect That would be true for all. Help them make the switch, it will be more effective, and quicker than government action.
RR
Walt Connelly
June 26th 17, 01:49 PM
Walt, your action of going to the FAA with this, is assuming that clubs and commercial operators are not interested in fixing this. As I said in a previous post, we have addressed this on two of our three towplanes. With the recent info that has surfaced in this thread, I will bring this to our board and we will try to get our L-19 converted to tost. I am sure if you could aid in bringing that info, or collecting anything that would help for the conversion, many if not all would make the same move. We did not because (I hope) we were operating on bad information that the FAA was going to stand in our way.
Do you feel that clubs and commercial operations would need to be forced to make this change, or do you think with your help, you could assist in this change? Personally I think many would do this, we have no interest in reducing safety for our towpilots. And I expect That would be true for all. Help them make the switch, it will be more effective, and quicker than government action.
RR
RR,
Actions speak louder than words. The fact that many commercial and club operations still use a system known to fail under the most dire of circumstances speaks volumes. Is it ignorance of apathy or both? I have no way of knowing what clubs and commercial operations are willing to do or reluctant to do. What I do know is I was a second or two from crashing into the ground with a student pilot not reacting and a release system not operating under conditions which as stated above is know to fail.
I am not an A&P nor am I an engineer so I'm not sure what info you are requesting to aid in your conversion BUT if it is a reluctance on the part of your board I would suggest they read the following:
Page 9, SSF, Tow Pilot Training Course (this is printed in RED)
"If at any time the nose of the tow plane is pulled uncontrollably by the glider to an dangerously high or low pitch attitude - PULL THE RELEASE.
Depending on the installation of the tow hitch, it may be possible for the release mechanism to become jammed due to the excessively high position of the glider. (American style hook)"
In addition, Advisory Circular - Date 3/3/08, AC No 43.13-2b
"When the glider on tow operates above a certain angle to the tow plane, the ring may slide upwards on the hook causing excessive load on the hook and difficulty in releasing the tow rope ring."
So, here are two admissions/acknowledgements by the SFF and the FAA that there is a problem with this system commonly used in the USA. If you are looking for something to kick start your board I would refer them to these comments.
Good luck.
Walt
Walt Connelly
June 26th 17, 02:03 PM
On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 2:30:04 PM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 03:44 25 June 2017, wrote:
The death toll doesn't match your hyperbole
How many pilots have to die before you act, give me a number.
Couple of posts back I suggested several acts that are more productive than squealing to the teacher. You want a number, I'll give you an equation: When the yearly towpilot death toll = the yearly glider pilot death toll. Glider pilot lives matter too. Simple solution is to write letters demanding the FAA ban gliding. All those glider pilot's lives and by default towpilot's lives saved. Brilliant.
You are missing a point here Mr Ballou but I can't help but feel that missing the point is what you do best.
What a glider pilots does once off tow does not affect the tow pilot, what they do on tow does. Yes, gliders crash not infrequently resulting in the death of the pilot and occasionally a passenger but that is not the fault of the tow pilot, that is exclusively the fault of the glider pilot. When a tow pilot crashes as a result of a glider pilot's failure to stay in position I become concerned. When a device meant to give the tow pilot a fighting chance to survive does not work, is known to be prone to failure I take great exception. Does this not make sense to you?
If you wish to kill yourself that is your decision, fly on my friend, I shall not interfere. If you wish to kill me we will have conflict.
Walt
Walt Connelly
June 26th 17, 02:13 PM
A wee bit disingenuous there Walt. Here is the quote 'The odds are 50/50 of something bad happening on each launch. Either it will or it wonโt!' Article goes on to list 41 possible tow emergencies, The Schweizer hook is not named and might be a complicating factor in one of the 41. Doesn't help your case. Now of course there is a way to eliminate all 41, stay home. But you don't want safety, personal or for everyone else. You want to get recess canceled because you got a wedgie on the playground.
On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 8:43:09 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
Dan Marotta;949727 Wrote:
If it was really 50-50 nobody would be flying. Did that statistic come
from MSNBC or Johnny Depp?
Actually it was in an article from Tom Knauff called "Launching
Emergencies." I read everything I can find on the subject. I saw the
humor, the tongue in cheek of what he said, did you not?
http://www.eglider.org/NewsArticles/launchingemergencies.htm
Walt
--
Walt Connelly
I believe number 13 was "glider gets too high." Mr Knoff appeared to be speaking from the standpoint of the glider and glider pilot but clearly he understands the effect of the glider on the tow plane. Just because he didn't specifically state the known problems with the Schweizer hook does not mean he is not aware.
Did you read his comments about changing from Schweizer to Tost and his interactions with the FAA? He, like a handful of others who have contacted me recognized a serious problem and delt with it.
Your posts do amuse me as I slurp my morning coffee and keeping me amused is a good thing.
Have a great day my friend.
Walt
Dan Marotta
June 26th 17, 02:49 PM
Sorry Walt, my comment wasn't directed at you. It was a comment on the
lack of knowledge of math and statistics.
I'll either die today or I won't, so I guess I'll stay in bed and stay
comfortable until it happens. That 50-50 concept only works with coin
tosses, etc. and, as used, is disingenuous.
On 6/25/2017 2:09 PM, Walt Connelly wrote:
> Dan Marotta;949727 Wrote:
>> If it was really 50-50 nobody would be flying. Did that statistic come
>>
>> from MSNBC or Johnny Depp?
>>
>> Actually it was in an article from Tom Knauff called "Launching
>> Emergencies." I read everything I can find on the subject. I saw the
>> humor, the tongue in cheek of what he said, did you not?
>>
>> http://www.eglider.org/NewsArticles/launchingemergencies.htm
>>
>> Walt
>
>
>
--
Dan, 5J
On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 2:43:07 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
> ;949735 Wrote:
> > On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 2:30:04 PM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:-
> > At 03:44 25 June 2017, wrote:-
> > The death toll doesn't match your hyperbole
> > -
> > How many pilots have to die before you act, give me a number.-
> >
> > Couple of posts back I suggested several acts that are more productive
> > than squealing to the teacher. You want a number, I'll give you an
> > equation: When the yearly towpilot death toll = the yearly glider pilot
> > death toll. Glider pilot lives matter too. Simple solution is to write
> > letters demanding the FAA ban gliding. All those glider pilot's lives
> > and by default towpilot's lives saved. Brilliant.
>
> You are missing a point here Mr Ballou but I can't help but feel that
> missing the point is what you do best.
>
> What a glider pilots does once off tow does not affect the tow pilot,
> what they do on tow does. Yes, gliders crash not infrequently resulting
> in the death of the pilot and occasionally a passenger but that is not
> the fault of the tow pilot, that is exclusively the fault of the glider
> pilot. When a tow pilot crashes as a result of a glider pilot's
> failure to stay in position I become concerned. When a device meant to
> give the tow pilot a fighting chance to survive does not work, is known
> to be prone to failure I take great exception. Does this not make sense
> to you?
>
> If you wish to kill yourself that is your decision, fly on my friend, I
> shall not interfere. If you wish to kill me we will have conflict.
>
> Walt
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly
You are taking pilots mistakes as an intentional attempt on your life. And trying to get revenge through big gov. They didn't mean to kill you, revenge is not warranted. And if it was using the gov is the sissy way.
Prove you ain't about vengeance, simple task, collect 337s on Tost installs on L-19 Birddogs and post it here. Several have expressed interest. I can even give you a hint as I understand a Philadelphia area club pulled it off. Here is your chance to make towing safer. Or you could write your letter to punish all those evil heartless people with Schweizer hooks.
Don Johnstone[_4_]
June 26th 17, 10:45 PM
At 21:19 25 June 2017, wrote:
>On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 2:30:04 PM UTC-4, Don Johnstone
wrote:
>> At 03:44 25 June 2017, wrote:
>> >The death toll doesn't match your hyperbole=20
>> >
>> How many pilots have to die before you act, give me a number.
>
>Couple of posts back I suggested several acts that are more
productive
>than=
> squealing to the teacher. You want a number, I'll give you an
equation:
>W=
>hen the yearly towpilot death toll =3D the yearly glider pilot death
toll.
>=
> Glider pilot lives matter too. Simple solution is to write letters
>demand=
>ing the FAA ban gliding. All those glider pilot's lives and by default
>tow=
>pilot's lives saved. Brilliant.
>
That is called deflection, not an answer. How many deaths do you think
are acceptable? How many tow pilots have to die before YOU take
action? Just answer the question, it is very simple.
Tom Kelley #711
June 26th 17, 11:19 PM
On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 12:43:07 PM UTC-6, Walt Connelly wrote:
> ;949735 Wrote:
> > On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 2:30:04 PM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:-
> > At 03:44 25 June 2017, wrote:-
> > The death toll doesn't match your hyperbole
> > -
> > How many pilots have to die before you act, give me a number.-
> >
> > Couple of posts back I suggested several acts that are more productive
> > than squealing to the teacher. You want a number, I'll give you an
> > equation: When the yearly towpilot death toll = the yearly glider pilot
> > death toll. Glider pilot lives matter too. Simple solution is to write
> > letters demanding the FAA ban gliding. All those glider pilot's lives
> > and by default towpilot's lives saved. Brilliant.
>
> You are missing a point here Mr Ballou but I can't help but feel that
> missing the point is what you do best.
>
> What a glider pilots does once off tow does not affect the tow pilot,
> what they do on tow does. Yes, gliders crash not infrequently resulting
> in the death of the pilot and occasionally a passenger but that is not
> the fault of the tow pilot, that is exclusively the fault of the glider
> pilot. When a tow pilot crashes as a result of a glider pilot's
> failure to stay in position I become concerned. When a device meant to
> give the tow pilot a fighting chance to survive does not work, is known
> to be prone to failure I take great exception. Does this not make sense
> to you?
>
> If you wish to kill yourself that is your decision, fly on my friend, I
> shall not interfere. If you wish to kill me we will have conflict.
>
> Walt
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly
Hi Walt,
What I may have missed is how many tow's had you done and how long ago was it before finding out about this possible "release" problem? It seems like most have responded trying to offer their view in a way which has been thought about before.
As I know you, along with the many other's, they have appeared to me, to give reasonable guidance and thought when asked about this possible problem.
It also appears from the FAA they have given this review and guidance.
No one wishes "bad" on anyone, as many "bad's" can happen. If you knew of this problem long ago, why did you keep on towing until "almost bad" happened? As this current "action" is your choice, do they not have that same choice? Just asking....that's all.
Still, will miss you at Seminole, as I had towed behind you many times over the years and still remember when you first started towing. Best wherever your travels take you!
Best. Tom #711
On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 6:00:05 PM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:
> At 21:19 25 June 2017, wrote:
> >On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 2:30:04 PM UTC-4, Don Johnstone
> wrote:
> >> At 03:44 25 June 2017, wrote:
> >> >The death toll doesn't match your hyperbole=20
> >> >
> >> How many pilots have to die before you act, give me a number.
> >
> >Couple of posts back I suggested several acts that are more
> productive
> >than=
> > squealing to the teacher. You want a number, I'll give you an
> equation:
> >W=
> >hen the yearly towpilot death toll =3D the yearly glider pilot death
> toll.
> >=
> > Glider pilot lives matter too. Simple solution is to write letters
> >demand=
> >ing the FAA ban gliding. All those glider pilot's lives and by default
> >tow=
> >pilot's lives saved. Brilliant.
> >
> That is called deflection, not an answer. How many deaths do you think
> are acceptable? How many tow pilots have to die before YOU take
> action? Just answer the question, it is very simple.
And the premise that if we fix this one thing at any cost then flying will be safe is ludicrous. As is the premise that Schweizer hooks are a killing machine. The current rate is acceptable. If you aren't OK with a mechanical device failing and killing a pilot once every twenty years you shouldn't be flying in general aviation aircraft.
Paul Agnew
June 27th 17, 02:41 AM
From Walt's first post under the Tow Upsets thread that started this discussion:
"I have been towing for about two and a half years and have logged over
6,500 tows."
Paul A.
Walt Connelly
June 27th 17, 02:40 PM
On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 6:00:05 PM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 21:19 25 June 2017, wrote:
On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 2:30:04 PM UTC-4, Don Johnstone
wrote:
At 03:44 25 June 2017, wrote:
The death toll doesn't match your hyperbole=20
How many pilots have to die before you act, give me a number.
Couple of posts back I suggested several acts that are more
productive
than=
squealing to the teacher. You want a number, I'll give you an
equation:
W=
hen the yearly towpilot death toll =3D the yearly glider pilot death
toll.
=
Glider pilot lives matter too. Simple solution is to write letters
demand=
ing the FAA ban gliding. All those glider pilot's lives and by default
tow=
pilot's lives saved. Brilliant.
That is called deflection, not an answer. How many deaths do you think
are acceptable? How many tow pilots have to die before YOU take
action? Just answer the question, it is very simple.
And the premise that if we fix this one thing at any cost then flying will be safe is ludicrous. As is the premise that Schweizer hooks are a killing machine. The current rate is acceptable. If you aren't OK with a mechanical device failing and killing a pilot once every twenty years you shouldn't be flying in general aviation aircraft.
Gregg you hillarious *******. I just aspirated coffee up into my sinuses and now I smell nothing but Hazelnut.
"The current rate is acceptable?" Obviously you are not flying a tow plane with a Schweizer hook and a release handle down on the floor. No, the current rate is NOT acceptable when there is an improved apparatus known to not fail under similar conditions. You are missing my point entirely but that's okay, miss on.
Walt
krasw
June 27th 17, 03:53 PM
On Tuesday, 27 June 2017 02:40:44 UTC+3, wrote:
> And the premise that if we fix this one thing at any cost then flying will be safe is ludicrous. As is the premise that Schweizer hooks are a killing machine. The current rate is acceptable. If you aren't OK with a mechanical device failing and killing a pilot once every twenty years you shouldn't be flying in general aviation aircraft.
Wow, just wow. Acceptable. It is a release design that is clearly not working as it should and easily fixed with little money and effort (relative to costs of flying in general). And you are talking about acceptable rate of dead tow pilots? Seriously?
Walt Connelly
June 27th 17, 03:55 PM
On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 12:43:07 PM UTC-6, Walt Connelly wrote:
;949735 Wrote:
On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 2:30:04 PM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:-
At 03:44 25 June 2017, wrote:-
The death toll doesn't match your hyperbole
-
How many pilots have to die before you act, give me a number.-
Couple of posts back I suggested several acts that are more productive
than squealing to the teacher. You want a number, I'll give you an
equation: When the yearly towpilot death toll = the yearly glider pilot
death toll. Glider pilot lives matter too. Simple solution is to write
letters demanding the FAA ban gliding. All those glider pilot's lives
and by default towpilot's lives saved. Brilliant.
You are missing a point here Mr Ballou but I can't help but feel that
missing the point is what you do best.
What a glider pilots does once off tow does not affect the tow pilot,
what they do on tow does. Yes, gliders crash not infrequently resulting
in the death of the pilot and occasionally a passenger but that is not
the fault of the tow pilot, that is exclusively the fault of the glider
pilot. When a tow pilot crashes as a result of a glider pilot's
failure to stay in position I become concerned. When a device meant to
give the tow pilot a fighting chance to survive does not work, is known
to be prone to failure I take great exception. Does this not make sense
to you?
If you wish to kill yourself that is your decision, fly on my friend, I
shall not interfere. If you wish to kill me we will have conflict.
Walt
--
Walt Connelly
Hi Walt,
What I may have missed is how many tow's had you done and how long ago was it before finding out about this possible "release" problem? It seems like most have responded trying to offer their view in a way which has been thought about before.
As I know you, along with the many other's, they have appeared to me, to give reasonable guidance and thought when asked about this possible problem.
It also appears from the FAA they have given this review and guidance.
No one wishes "bad" on anyone, as many "bad's" can happen. If you knew of this problem long ago, why did you keep on towing until "almost bad" happened? As this current "action" is your choice, do they not have that same choice? Just asking....that's all.
Still, will miss you at Seminole, as I had towed behind you many times over the years and still remember when you first started towing. Best wherever your travels take you!
Best. Tom #711
Good Morning Tom,
Hope all is well with 711. Two of the great facts of life is that we don't know what we don't know and what you don't know can kill you.
When I was asked to tow at SLGP (because the manager and other tow pilot were having coflict with the owner and were leaving) I wasn't quite sure what I was getting into but life is an adventure. I accepted and as you might guess one learns to tow by towing and experiencing all that towing has to offer along the way. I took it easy, kept my head on my shoulders and was fortunate enough to have a couple of hundred tows before I began to realize how badly an out of position glider could affect the tow plane.
I had over 6500 tows when I experience two severe kiting events in one week, they happen in the wink of an eye and anything that might interfere with the ability of the tow pilot to release the glider is a major problem. (read my intial post under "Tow Plane Upsets" for a more comprehensive explantion of these two events.) I had read the available information about the Schweizer hook failings and had spoken with other tow pilots about releasing. The best answer I could get was "release early." Well, not all kiting events happen in a slowly evolving manner with the tow pilot watching in the mirror, sometimes they happen in the wink of an eye and you have to be looking forward, left and right much of the time to avoid running into those pesky, white, high performance gliders.
The FAA's "review and guidance" appears to be a bit nebulous with a statement in the Advisory Circular # 43.13-2B (or not 2b) that says, "When the glider on tow operates above a certain angle to the tow plane, the ring may slide upwards on the hook causing excessive load on the hook and difficulty in releasing the tow rope ring." I don't know about you but I come from a family of lawyers and can hear the lawyer speak all over that comment. Perhaps what it should say is "when the glider kites on you in the wink of an eye, the SCHWEIZER hook will jam and you are along for the ride until the rope breaks or your ass hits the ground." In my case had the rope not broken or had it broken a second later you would be reading about my death and not hearing from my happy ass on Aviation Banter.
The "reasonable guidance" from others thus far seems to include, 1. Not writing the letter to the FAA. 2. Go away and leave the rest of us alone. 3. Compile a list of 337's and STC's and distribute them to those glider operations and clubs who still fly with Schweizer hooks. 4. Other rather simplistic approaches to a complex problem none of which really enhance safety. 5. Did I miss something that made sense, if so let me know.
Yes, every tow pilot has the same choice to fly or not to fly and I would be surprised that any tow pilot had not heard about the potential problems with the Schweizer hook. It does not hit home until you find yourself at 300 feet with a student screwing up to the Nth degree while pulling your tail up and to the right, your nose down and to the left and you are trying desparately to release. Interestingly enough, this 15 year old student was described by the most experienced CFIG I know as one who should not be flying. She was soloed by the most inexperienced CFIG I know, go figure.
I am trying to compose a letter to the FAA that will not hamper or inhibit the world of soaring. My suggestions will be to at a minimum require the Schweizer hook to be inverted for which there is an STC. My understanding is that the Schweizer hook is limited to towing gliders under 1500 lbs max gross weight and that the rope strength is limited to 1200 lbs. This, if correct would eliminate the Schweizer hook from operations towing the heavier gliders, I am still researching this information. Again, we don't know what we don't know. In addition I feel that it is important to reposition release handles from the floor (on Pawnees) to a position up near the throttle which will give the pilot an extra second or two to react. This has been mandated by the BGA after the deaths of several tow pilots.
The basic position I am running into from others on this forum is that there have not been enough deaths to warrant any mandates to switch to Tost. That being said I do have my supporters.
Our system does not make it easy to do this research but I have found deaths directly attributable to this condition. I have spoken with someone who knew the pilot who died and whose death fostered the inverted Schweizer hook. Did you read the post from Dave Springford? Thirty years ago their club experienced an accident attributable to a Schweizer hook and changed to Tost with a release up near the throttle. My guess is that the pilot survived and was able to elucidate what happened. The BGA as I believe I have noted before had mandated these changes. Of course I am told that the Canadians and Brits are under different systems and we are under the FAA. I understand this but this does not negate the fact that they recognized a problem and found a solution, we can do the same.
As someone who was a second or two from being a statistic I feel compelled to insure that this is well known and that some action be taken. I may not succeed but I will try. If you have any suggestions I would be happy to entertain them.
Hoping all your landings are happy ones and I always enjoy reading "711 Reporting."
Walt
Walt Connelly
June 27th 17, 04:05 PM
Sorry Walt, my comment wasn't directed at you. It was a comment on the
lack of knowledge of math and statistics.
I'll either die today or I won't, so I guess I'll stay in bed and stay
comfortable until it happens. That 50-50 concept only works with coin
tosses, etc. and, as used, is disingenuous.
On 6/25/2017 2:09 PM, Walt Connelly wrote:
Dan Marotta;949727 Wrote:
If it was really 50-50 nobody would be flying. Did that statistic come
from MSNBC or Johnny Depp?
Actually it was in an article from Tom Knauff called "Launching
Emergencies." I read everything I can find on the subject. I saw the
humor, the tongue in cheek of what he said, did you not?
http://www.eglider.org/NewsArticles/launchingemergencies.htm
Walt
--
Dan, 5J
Dan,
I don't take anything personally, i am not a person.
I am all about math and science but I did see the humor in this comment and I am sure that Tom meant it that way. During the Vietnam Police Action my squadron commander once said, we might die today and then again we might not, so let's go fly the mission and see what happens. In our case the most dangerous part of flying was the take off. We were over and above maximum allowable war gross weight for our aircraft, Go AiR FORCE. The second most dangerous part was that inflight box lunch. But we still made the take off and I still ate that lunch and I survived.
Have a great day.
Walt
Tango Eight
June 27th 17, 04:46 PM
On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 10:53:28 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
> Wow, just wow. Acceptable. It is a release design that is clearly not working as it should and easily fixed with little money and effort (relative to costs of flying in general). And you are talking about acceptable rate of dead tow pilots? Seriously?
It's obviously acceptable: we keep towing, yes?
In many 10s of thousands of tows, my club has had no kiting incidents. No one denies the possibility of an unrecoverable accident and the probability of a Schweizer release failure in this circumstance, but experience shows that these are low probability events. Most of us can distinguish between 1:100,000 and 1:2.
My job as the safety guy is to look at the whole picture, not be a one issue zealot. Given limited resources, I'm on the 1:1000 problems first, not the 1:100,000 problems.
A Tost release is on my want list, but honestly it is not hard to some up with ten things that are far more important to overall club safety.
However, someone posts a 337 for a Tost installation on an L-19, I'll pass the hat, call Portland fsdo and start the ball rolling. It'll be a Winter project and maybe not this Winter if I have to roll my own 337.
Evan Ludeman -- Post Mills Soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
June 27th 17, 04:55 PM
I wonder what paperwork is legally required for an inverted Schwiezer tow release (if you already have one installed)? Should be pretty simple and cheap to do the actual change AND get most of the benefit of a Tost release.
This from a guy that lost a friend that was towing in NJ maybe 30 years ago and had a kiting issue while low. The glider pilot was a known squirrel and was not welcome at our field.
Dave White[_2_]
June 27th 17, 07:28 PM
Hello Walt, First I want to thank you for all the great tows when I was working on my CFIG back in February. If you want to send your letter to the FAA, and it sounds as if you will, you might want to take some precautions. In the 40+ years I flew for a living only 3 or 4 pilots contacted the FAA with safety concerns. To be fair we had other avenues, i.e. Union, etc to air our grievances. But a few did go to the FAA and later had regrets. If they pursue your concerns you may be asked some hard questions. Did you report the incident? To whom did you report the incident? Employer, NASA, FAA, SSA, or anybody else? Did you do a proper preflight of the tow hook? There will be many other questions but I think you get my point. They will be thorough and you will feel as if you are in crosshairs. And you will be in the crosshairs. Before you put a stamp on it get some advice from an aviation lawyer. AOPA has a great legal staff. I would trust their opinion on how to approach the FAA before listening to anyone else. Good luck.
Tango Eight
June 27th 17, 08:15 PM
On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 11:55:57 AM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> I wonder what paperwork is legally required for an inverted Schwiezer tow release (if you already have one installed)? Should be pretty simple and cheap to do the actual change AND get most of the benefit of a Tost release.
I grok you still need a 337. But anyhow, Schweizer hooks are out of production. So it comes down to some version of the following:
Option 1: http://www.wingsunlimitedtowhooks.com/bolt-on-bumper.html
Option 2: http://wingsandwheels.com/aircraft-parts/tow-equipment/tow-release/e-series-tow-release.html
This isn't really a tough call, but you do need an approved installation.
best,
Evan Ludeman / T8
bumper[_4_]
June 27th 17, 08:45 PM
Some years back there was a fatal Pawnee glider kiting accident. I had the opportunity to inspect the skeleton of the Pawnee, it had been consumed by fire, at the aviation wrecking yard. I wasn't permitted to take photos.
The Pawnee had two Schweizer hooks installed on a plate and connected to the ship with a flat metal strap that could not have been more than 1/4" thick. During the kiting, this strap with bracket and hooks, bent upward. This put enough slack in the release cable so it could not activate the release. It bent the hook up so far it impacted the rudder and bent the rudder frame upwards several inches.
I mention this as even if you are currently using a Schweizer hook, whichever way up you have it, it still needs to be on a mount that's designed for towing gliders, not just banners.
Tony[_5_]
June 28th 17, 11:41 AM
K&L sells towhooks.
http://www.klsoaring.com/index.php/items-for-sale/parts-for-sale/parts-for-sale/tow-hook-parts
Walt Connelly
June 28th 17, 01:26 PM
;949891']Hello Walt, First I want to thank you for all the great tows when I was working on my CFIG back in February. If you want to send your letter to the FAA, and it sounds as if you will, you might want to take some precautions. In the 40+ years I flew for a living only 3 or 4 pilots contacted the FAA with safety concerns. To be fair we had other avenues, i.e. Union, etc to air our grievances. But a few did go to the FAA and later had regrets. If they pursue your concerns you may be asked some hard questions. Did you report the incident? To whom did you report the incident? Employer, NASA, FAA, SSA, or anybody else? Did you do a proper preflight of the tow hook? There will be many other questions but I think you get my point. They will be thorough and you will feel as if you are in crosshairs. And you will be in the crosshairs. Before you put a stamp on it get some advice from an aviation lawyer. AOPA has a great legal staff. I would trust their opinion on how to approach the FAA before listening to anyone else. Good luck.
Dave,
Thank you, I truly loved towing skilled pilots, students and the geriatric crowd not so much but such is life.
As an old retiree I am not aware of all the avenues available for reporting and
"complaining" but I am trying to be careful in all aspects of this endeavor.
I of course reported this to the manager and VP, they are well aware of the incident, more aware than they would like to be I am sure. If there are other avenues of reporting please advise. I was all over the FAA site looking for reporting information and could not find any. Go figure.
I am finding it very difficult to find the information I need as many links to things I want to read are not working. I have learned alot though and my conclusion is that tow pilots, unless they are A&P's or otherwise very familiar with regulations and requirements are doing things everyday contrary to manufacturers recommendations among other things. For instance I understand that towing a glider of a maximum gross weight exceeding 1500 lbs is prohibited by the Schweizer manufacturer, not so with the Tost which I can find information that it exceed 3000 lbs.
One might conclude from this thread that there is an acceptable death rate among tow pilots and that $2500 dollars and repositioning release handles is too much to prevent a death.
Hope you are having a ball teaching.
Walt
Dan Marotta
June 28th 17, 04:30 PM
Walt,
I *loved* chicken snacks! A breast, a wing, a roll, and a hard boiled
egg for a quarter. The war ended when I was half way through UPT so I
didn't get the opportunity to become a Yankee Air Pirate.
Peace...
Dan
On 6/27/2017 9:05 AM, Walt Connelly wrote:
> Dan Marotta;949794 Wrote:
>> Sorry Walt, my comment wasn't directed at you. It was a comment on the
>>
>> lack of knowledge of math and statistics.
>>
>> I'll either die today or I won't, so I guess I'll stay in bed and stay
>> comfortable until it happens. That 50-50 concept only works with coin
>> tosses, etc. and, as used, is disingenuous.
>>
>> On 6/25/2017 2:09 PM, Walt Connelly wrote:-
>> Dan Marotta;949727 Wrote:-
>> If it was really 50-50 nobody would be flying. Did that statistic
>> come
>>
>> from MSNBC or Johnny Depp?
>>
>> Actually it was in an article from Tom Knauff called "Launching
>> Emergencies." I read everything I can find on the subject. I saw the
>> humor, the tongue in cheek of what he said, did you not?
>>
>> http://www.eglider.org/NewsArticles/launchingemergencies.htm
>>
>> Walt-
>>
>>
>> -
>>
>> --
>> Dan, 5J
> Dan,
>
> I don't take anything personally, i am not a person.
>
> I am all about math and science but I did see the humor in this
> comment and I am sure that Tom meant it that way. During the Vietnam
> Police Action my squadron commander once said, we might die today and
> then again we might not, so let's go fly the mission and see what
> happens. In our case the most dangerous part of flying was the take
> off. We were over and above maximum allowable war gross weight for our
> aircraft, Go AiR FORCE. The second most dangerous part was that
> inflight box lunch. But we still made the take off and I still ate that
> lunch and I survived.
>
> Have a great day.
>
> Walt
>
>
>
>
--
Dan, 5J
Dave White[_2_]
June 28th 17, 04:42 PM
Walt,
Glad to see you saved my message as my fat fingers managed to delete it trying to edit on my phone๐ I would start with NASA even though you are outside the 10 day window and copy to SSA. https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report/electronic.html You might consider joining AOPA as they have a great legal team and a good track record of dealing with the FAA.
Regards,
Dave
Waveguru
June 29th 17, 11:30 PM
A Tost CG release is made to release with a rear load on it. Why couldn't that release be mounted on a tow plane so that when the glider got too high it would "back release"?
Boggs
Tango Eight
June 29th 17, 11:39 PM
On Wednesday, June 28, 2017 at 8:43:11 AM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
> One might conclude from this thread that there is an acceptable
> death rate among tow pilots
You state this like it's shocking.
There's a death rate associated with taking aspirin. Or lying in bed.
I looked up all fatal accidents for airplanes in the NTSB database containing the words "glider" and "tow". Back to 1970, it's 24. This link will open that search http://tinyurl.com/y9flwdkh
While there's nothing to celebrate here, that number is an order of magnitude smaller than the number you get in a search for fatal glider accidents over the same period of time (295) and nearly three orders of magnitude smaller than the number of all fatal accidents involving airplanes (22,062). If you sift through those 24 reports to find the fatal accidents where failure to release (for any reason) might have been a factor (many of the accidents happened well after the glider released normally) you might well be down to single digits. I've read about a third of them so far. In any event, you will get to a "small" number, albeit one with that came with catastrophic consequences for family, friends and associates in each and every case (as happened 22,000+ other times over hte same time frame in GA as a whole).. I have no death wish and I do not enjoy the prospect of unnecessary or easily avoidable risk to myself or my friends, and neither does anyone else I know.
Neither am I (or anyone else I know who tows) unconcerned about the potential for problems with the "Elmira Death Hook" (thanks, Gregg), but there's an awful lot else out there that (statistically) is far more likely to be our undoing, especially if we go soaring as well as tow. I do recommend towplane operators improve their release hardware at their earliest opportunity if they are still flying an EDH. And this is my own plan. In the meantime, as previously stated, we're still towing.
You'll do as you see fit of course. But I won't be at all surprised when no one at the FAA takes this very seriously, because on the numbers, they should have better things to do. If per chance someone does (Hi Steve, I hope you're reading!), then the right way to go is get helpful information in the hands of operators, not simply ground everyone.
There are STC'd kits for many towplanes available. By no means all, and mine is one of the oversights so no, I do not have the option of writing a $2500 check and making this happen immediately. Thanks for reading.
best regards,
Evan Ludeman / T8
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
June 29th 17, 11:39 PM
Ummmm.......the glider would have to be over/in front of the tug?!?!
By then, the tug pilot is standing on the rudder pedals and grabbing anything to release the rope.
On Thursday, June 29, 2017 at 6:39:57 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> Ummmm.......the glider would have to be over/in front of the tug?!?!
> By then, the tug pilot is standing on the rudder pedals and grabbing anything to release the rope.
Nope. Hook would be mounted so that the "rear" of the hook(in a glider) would be up and then installation angle tilted such that the back release function would actuate at the "desired" angle.
First look(I just looked at one) is that the hook would not be operating on a regular basis with the force in the direction intended. That would make me concerned about reliability and wear issues.
FWIW
UH
Martin Gregorie[_5_]
June 30th 17, 12:10 AM
On Thu, 29 Jun 2017 15:30:42 -0700, Waveguru wrote:
> A Tost CG release is made to release with a rear load on it. Why
> couldn't that release be mounted on a tow plane so that when the glider
> got too high it would "back release"?
>
Probably because the angular difference between the rope on the ground
run and when it back-releases over the winch would be far too great to be
useful when dealing with a tug upset.
Two points:
- I don't know at what angle the cable is in relation to the glider datum
when the hook back-releases above the winch, but for sure the rope
angle during a winch launch is at least 40-45 degrees most of the time
and must increase to around 90 degrees above the winch. Don't forget
that there's bow in the cable.
- when doing release checks before the first winch launch of the day,
it can be quite difficult to pull the cable down and back under some
gliders with enough force to cause a back release. Usually this is
because the CG hook is fairly close in front of the main wheel.
Both effects are the result of the 'hook' not moving during a launch
until the pilot pulls the release. When a back release occurs its because
the rope is applying sufficient rearward force to move the guard ring
back far enough for the cable ring to fall off the end of the 'hook'.
The guard ring is on standoffs which pivot on the hook body and are held
forward by a spring. This is not very strong: when moving gliders round
the field its often easier to put the tow rope onto the CG hook by
pulling the guard ring back with a couple of fingers and slipping the
rope's ring over the rear end of the 'hook' than it is to open the canopy
and operate the release to put the rope on the nose hook.
--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
Walt Connelly
June 30th 17, 01:14 PM
Walt,
I *loved* chicken snacks! A breast, a wing, a roll, and a hard boiled
egg for a quarter. The war ended when I was half way through UPT so I
didn't get the opportunity to become a Yankee Air Pirate.
Peace...
Dan
Dan, 5J[/i][/color]
Dan,
I don't take anything personally, i am not a person.
I am all about math and science but I did see the humor in this
comment and I am sure that Tom meant it that way. During the Vietnam
Police Action my squadron commander once said, we might die today and
then again we might not, so let's go fly the mission and see what
happens. In our case the most dangerous part of flying was the take
off. We were over and above maximum allowable war gross weight for our
aircraft, Go AiR FORCE. The second most dangerous part was that
inflight box lunch. But we still made the take off and I still ate that
lunch and I survived.
Have a great day.
Walt
[/i][/color]
--
Dan, 5J
I never saw the breast, wing, roll and hard boiled egg for a quarter. I favored the "do it yourself, roast beef box." Four pieces of white bread, a few slices of roast beef, (at least that's what they said it was) a few condiment packages, a piece of whatever fruit they had available, a pint of milk, that reconstituted with vegetable oil stuff, all place in what was affectionately known as the shoe box. I remember when the BX started carrying those mini, pop top cans of beenie weenies, mac and cheese and ravioli among other things. We had a heater on the aircraft...they were superior to the flight line lunches.
Then there was the quiet night when not much was going on, the DABs was asleep with his jacket over his head and a young officer, (he knew everything he would tell you) put a can of Ravioli in the heater without popping the top. With his nomex gloves he retrieved his lunch, sat back down and popped the top which resulted in a loud explosion (quickly getting the attention of everyone). There was Ravioli all over the place along with the red sauce making a few think someone had taken a round. The look on his face (covered in red tomato sauce) was to die for...The DABs was not amused. (DABs, Director, Airborne Battle Staff)
Walt
Walt Connelly
June 30th 17, 01:19 PM
;949932']Some years back there was a fatal Pawnee glider kiting accident. I had the opportunity to inspect the skeleton of the Pawnee, it had been consumed by fire, at the aviation wrecking yard. I wasn't permitted to take photos.
The Pawnee had two Schweizer hooks installed on a plate and connected to the ship with a flat metal strap that could not have been more than 1/4" thick. During the kiting, this strap with bracket and hooks, bent upward. This put enough slack in the release cable so it could not activate the release. It bent the hook up so far it impacted the rudder and bent the rudder frame upwards several inches.
I mention this as even if you are currently using a Schweizer hook, whichever way up you have it, it still needs to be on a mount that's designed for towing gliders, not just banners.
As I have said, "we do not know what we do not know." I am told time and time again that no installation can be done and no modification to an installation can be made without proper authorization and paperwork. I can ASSURE you that while this might be the case, such is not always how things are done. Occasionally someone does something untoward. Was this the Euphrata accident?
Walt
Walt Connelly
June 30th 17, 02:26 PM
On Wednesday, June 28, 2017 at 8:43:11 AM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
One might conclude from this thread that there is an acceptable
death rate among tow pilots
You state this like it's shocking.
There's a death rate associated with taking aspirin. Or lying in bed.
I looked up all fatal accidents for airplanes in the NTSB database containing the words "glider" and "tow". Back to 1970, it's 24. This link will open that search http://tinyurl.com/y9flwdkh
While there's nothing to celebrate here, that number is an order of magnitude smaller than the number you get in a search for fatal glider accidents over the same period of time (295) and nearly three orders of magnitude smaller than the number of all fatal accidents involving airplanes (22,062). If you sift through those 24 reports to find the fatal accidents where failure to release (for any reason) might have been a factor (many of the accidents happened well after the glider released normally) you might well be down to single digits. I've read about a third of them so far. In any event, you will get to a "small" number, albeit one with that came with catastrophic consequences for family, friends and associates in each and every case (as happened 22,000+ other times over hte same time frame in GA as a whole).. I have no death wish and I do not enjoy the prospect of unnecessary or easily avoidable risk to myself or my friends, and neither does anyone else I know.
Neither am I (or anyone else I know who tows) unconcerned about the potential for problems with the "Elmira Death Hook" (thanks, Gregg), but there's an awful lot else out there that (statistically) is far more likely to be our undoing, especially if we go soaring as well as tow. I do recommend towplane operators improve their release hardware at their earliest opportunity if they are still flying an EDH. And this is my own plan. In the meantime, as previously stated, we're still towing.
You'll do as you see fit of course. But I won't be at all surprised when no one at the FAA takes this very seriously, because on the numbers, they should have better things to do. If per chance someone does (Hi Steve, I hope you're reading!), then the right way to go is get helpful information in the hands of operators, not simply ground everyone.
There are STC'd kits for many towplanes available. By no means all, and mine is one of the oversights so no, I do not have the option of writing a $2500 check and making this happen immediately. Thanks for reading.
best regards,
Evan Ludeman / T8
Yes Mr Ludeman, there is a death rate associated with asprin and lying in bed. In the case of aspirin if you have a compromised GI Tract or if you take too much you can develop GI bleeding which can lead to death. I also recall a patient with a CVA which was later attributable to excessive asprin use. There are better analgesic alternatives these days to aspirin but it's cheap and easily available over the counter just as there is a better alternative to the Schweizer hook as installed these days. Lying in bed can result in thrombosis which if not managed properly can lead to stroke or death, I am well aware of these things. The difference is that they are usually self inflicted. If inflicted by others who knew or should have known of the potential negative results then penalties can apply. Failure of a medical staff to not properly care for an invalid patient is well known and can result in sanctions.
The difference here is that the tow pilot is placed in jeopardy by the unskilled or careless action of the glider pilot on tow. The tow pilot is then further placed in jeopardy by a mechanical device well known to failure just when needed the most. My point is that this is a largely correctable condition. My recommendation will be to at a minimum, invert the Schweizer hook and reposition the release handle so as to make it quickly available to the tow pilot. I am trying very hard to not inhibit the sport of glider flying while at the same time improving the survivability of the tow pilot at a critical point in time.
Yes, more glider pilots die in accidents than tow pilots but these are largely the result of a mistake made by the glider pilot. I am not suggesting that we can totally eliminate risk from the sport. I ride a motorcycle, I've sky dived, flown the jump plane, scuba dived (I now only dive with someone well known to me as a result of a near major accident) and I was a volunteer for the Vietnam Police Action. I've ridden a 12 speed racing bicycle on the road with cars, hunted wild boar with a handgun and long bow, all these things could have resulted in my loss of life. Pilots by the very nature of what they do are risk takers.
Perhaps until you find yourself at a very low altitude, unable to release from a kiting glider due to a design flaw in the release you will not understand. Yes we continue to tow. I did 8 more tows the day of my last incident. I continued to tow for a couple of more weeks after the incident with the same set up.
I am additionally well aware that there is an altitude below which a tow pilot will not be able to react quickly enough regardless of the equipment available. That is a risk we take.
Yes, the FAA may totally ignore my response, but then again perhaps a few glider operations will see the validity of my point and make a life saving change. For the record an entire country has addressed this problem and long ago mandated the changes I am suggesting here. I do have my supporters.
Have a great day,
Walt
Your Momma ever tell you that you can catch more flies with honey? Why not do something pro-safety? A single simple starter task; find and share the Tost/337 info for L-19s. If the cost is @ $2,500 I'm confidant my club would raise that voluntarily in a week. But before we pass the hat it would make sense to know who to send the money to. Or if it is even possible to convert. Your refusal to take a single meaningful step towards safety prove your campaign is about vengeance against those dirty Elmira Death Hook operators that scared you and your safety claims are a cover story. The moral high ground is not yours Walt. Send your stupid letter, I'm confidant you lack the reasoning and persuasiveness to get a response from the FAA.
> Yes, the FAA may totally ignore my response, but then again perhaps a
> few glider operations will see the validity of my point and make a life
> saving change. For the record an entire country has addressed this
> problem and long ago mandated the changes I am suggesting here. I do
> have my supporters.
>
> Have a great day,
>
> Walt
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly
Pls also find one for an Aviat Husky and someone who is willing to sign off on the installation at the FAA without causing the airplane to be downed in the weeks and months of waiting for the paperwork to be processed. Or just ask Husky to quit making available their type certificate approved tow hook and release installation so we can use 4313 to produce our own.
Thanks
James Thomson[_2_]
July 1st 17, 12:48 PM
At 20:21 30 June 2017, wrote:
>Pls also find one for an Aviat Husky and someone who is willing to
sign
>off=
> on the installation at the FAA without causing the airplane to be
downed
>i=
>n the weeks and months of waiting for the paperwork to be
processed. Or
>ju=
>st ask Husky to quit making available their type certificate approved
tow
>h=
>ook and release installation so we can use 4313 to produce our own.
>
>Thanks
>
Tost offer their EASA approved retractor winch for a variety of aircraft
including the Husky A1, A1-A, and A1-B. They also offer the tow
release support alone for some aircraft including A1/A1-A and the A1-B.
It is an approved part of the EASA kit, not certified in itself. It may
be
worth contacting Tost for clarification.
Tost don't offer a kit for the L-19, possibly the USA is the only place
where this ex-military aircraft is used as a tug.
Walt Connelly
July 1st 17, 01:08 PM
Pls also find one for an Aviat Husky and someone who is willing to sign off on the installation at the FAA without causing the airplane to be downed in the weeks and months of waiting for the paperwork to be processed. Or just ask Husky to quit making available their type certificate approved tow hook and release installation so we can use 4313 to produce our own.
Thanks
Correct me if I'm wrong but did I not see a Husky with a Tost hook at the Seniors?
Walt
Walt Connelly
July 1st 17, 01:44 PM
Your Momma ever tell you that you can catch more flies with honey? Why not do something pro-safety? A single simple starter task; find and share the Tost/337 info for L-19s. If the cost is @ $2,500 I'm confidant my club would raise that voluntarily in a week. But before we pass the hat it would make sense to know who to send the money to. Or if it is even possible to convert. Your refusal to take a single meaningful step towards safety prove your campaign is about vengeance against those dirty Elmira Death Hook operators that scared you and your safety claims are a cover story. The moral high ground is not yours Walt. Send your stupid letter, I'm confidant you lack the reasoning and persuasiveness to get a response from the FAA.
Yes, the FAA may totally ignore my response, but then again perhaps a
few glider operations will see the validity of my point and make a life
saving change. For the record an entire country has addressed this
problem and long ago mandated the changes I am suggesting here. I do
have my supporters.
Have a great day,
Walt
--
Walt Connelly
Gregg, I am quite confident that you are the kind of guy who starts a fight and then runs. Glad you are "confidant." I am very confident. I am trying to approach this situation while doing as little to inhibit the soaring world as possible. Comments and attitudes such as yours make me want to say the hell with it, send the letter, be as scathing as possible. I can't do that, it is inconsistent with who I am. I still have many friends in the soaring community and wish not to get in the way of their enjoyment of soaring.
I have been told by A&Ps that there is very little difficulty in getting permission to invert the Schweizer hook (There is an STC available for the Pawnee) nor is there great difficulty in repositioning the release handle to a position allowing the tow pilot instant access. These will be my two foremost recommendations to the FAA. For those facilities towing with a Schweizer hook and pulling gliders with a maximum gross weight greater than 1500 lbs, they are in violation of the manufacturers recommendations based on the 1200 lb tow rope limitation.
Have a great day
Bruce Hoult
July 1st 17, 01:48 PM
On Saturday, July 1, 2017 at 3:00:07 PM UTC+3, James Thomson wrote:
> At 20:21 30 June 2017, wrote:
> >Pls also find one for an Aviat Husky and someone who is willing to
> sign
> >off=
> > on the installation at the FAA without causing the airplane to be
> downed
> >i=
> >n the weeks and months of waiting for the paperwork to be
> processed. Or
> >ju=
> >st ask Husky to quit making available their type certificate approved
> tow
> >h=
> >ook and release installation so we can use 4313 to produce our own.
> >
> >Thanks
> >
> Tost offer their EASA approved retractor winch for a variety of aircraft
> including the Husky A1, A1-A, and A1-B. They also offer the tow
> release support alone for some aircraft including A1/A1-A and the A1-B.
> It is an approved part of the EASA kit, not certified in itself. It may
> be
> worth contacting Tost for clarification.
>
> Tost don't offer a kit for the L-19, possibly the USA is the only place
> where this ex-military aircraft is used as a tug.
A L-19 was towing at Omarama NZ in 1995. I would be very surprised if it had anything other than a Tost hook.
According to http://www.kiwiaircraftimages.com/birddog.html (last update 27 May 1999!!) there are four in NZ:
O-1A 53-8031 (c/n 23452) formerly ZK-DOG (registration cancelled 31 Jan, 1997) is stored in Auckland with Mackley Aviation following an accident at Lake Hawea (Easter 1996).
O-1A 51-12520 (c/n 22975) VNAF 3-04126 is currently under restoration in Auckland.
O-1G ZK-FYA (c/n 22737) formerly 51-16903 is airworthy with Birddog Aviation at Ardmore.
O-1G ZK-OIG (c/n ??) is airworthy with J.S.Gemmel at Ardmore
How easy is it to flip the hook on towplanes other than a Pawnee? Logbook entry? 337? STC? Lots of people are going to need to know after the FAA takes action on your litter.
> Gregg, I am quite confident that you are the kind of guy who starts a
> fight and then runs. Glad you are "confidant." I am very confident. I
> am trying to approach this situation while doing as little to inhibit
> the soaring world as possible. Comments and attitudes such as yours
> make me want to say the hell with it, send the letter, be as scathing as
> possible. I can't do that, it is inconsistent with who I am. I still
> have many friends in the soaring community and wish not to get in the
> way of their enjoyment of soaring.
>
> I have been told by A&Ps that there is very little difficulty in getting
> permission to invert the Schweizer hook (There is an STC available for
> the Pawnee) nor is there great difficulty in repositioning the release
> handle to a position allowing the tow pilot instant access. These will
> be my two foremost recommendations to the FAA. For those facilities
> towing with a Schweizer hook and pulling gliders with a maximum gross
> weight greater than 1500 lbs, they are in violation of the manufacturers
> recommendations based on the 1200 lb tow rope limitation.
>
> Have a great day
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
July 2nd 17, 03:45 AM
Read my post and T8 from 5/27.....
Walt Connelly
July 2nd 17, 02:20 PM
Read my post and T8 from 5/27.....
Not sure what you are trying to say here Charlie. I've read the posts and...?
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
July 2nd 17, 09:09 PM
Sounds like a 337 is involved.
I am no expert, I am only passing on info in this thread.
That was done in 1982. When field approvals were still being done.
John Wells
July 3rd 17, 02:22 PM
Any reason why rope-cutting guillotines (like we have in winches) aren't installed in tow planes? Regardless of the design of the hook, surely redundancy (as long as it doesn't increase the risk of an unintended release, which would potentially be more problematic on tow than on the winch).
Bruce Hoult
July 3rd 17, 06:32 PM
On Monday, July 3, 2017 at 4:22:54 PM UTC+3, John Wells wrote:
> Any reason why rope-cutting guillotines (like we have in winches) aren't installed in tow planes? Regardless of the design of the hook, surely redundancy (as long as it doesn't increase the risk of an unintended release, which would potentially be more problematic on tow than on the winch).
I believe the installations with a winch to retract the tow rope after glider release also have a guillotine in lieu of a release on the tow plane end..
It might be pretty tricky to design an installation with both a release and a guillotine on the tow plane end without:
1) having the guillotine hanging way off the back of the tow plane, and mounted to what?
2) having the tow rope attachment/pull point much further forward than usual, and potentially difficult to hook up/unhook
3) being able to release the rope in flight (or while taxiing) without cutting the rope and without risk of the rings (or whatever) fouling on the guillotine.
I'm not sure why a guillotine would add any more risk. There are already plenty of ways for PTT to happen, and glider towing should always be performed in a way that makes PTT safe at any point during the takeoff.
Chris Rowland[_2_]
July 4th 17, 12:30 AM
At 13:22 03 July 2017, John Wells wrote:
>Any reason why rope-cutting guillotines (like we have in winches) aren't
>in=
>stalled in tow planes? Regardless of the design of the hook, surely
>redund=
>ancy (as long as it doesn't increase the risk of an unintended release,
>whi=
>ch would potentially be more problematic on tow than on the winch).
>
Our aerotow ropes have weak links at both ends, a weak one at the glider
end and a stronger one at the tug end. Normally the glider weak
link goes but if the tug takes the rope through the hedge the the tug end
goes and no harm - except to the tug pilot's reputation.
Chris
Walt,
Can you give an update on your letter to the FAA regarding this incident?
Regards,
Gerald
Gosh, this has been a concern for many years.
At least one way to look at this is to consider is it a problem?
There are recorded instances of glider pilots becoming too high on the tow plane early on tow resulting in lifting the tail of the towplane driving it into the ground. Killing the tow pilot.
It is well known if you lift on the tail-installed tow release with enough force, the Schweizer tow release may not function.
The soaring community can not ignore the problem.
I remember when we installed the Tost tow release on our tow planes many years ago. We felt it best to have our installation (easy) approved by an FAA inspector. He took a simple look at the installation and approved it on the spot.
The Tost tow release is a low cost item and easy to install.
Walt - there's an STC for inverting the hook? Can you provide any details, I can't find it. That would be a straightforward solution...
Turf soaring did it the first time after a tow plane upset that killed a tug pilot calk Rick Brown at Turf soaring school for details.
Charlie Quebec
May 9th 19, 05:27 AM
Sounds a very good plan to me Walt.
vBulletin® v3.6.4, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.