Nearly Mid-Air Collision at Estrella

[Terry Claussen]

A lousy end to what was a beautiful day of soaring, thanks to the USMC
and my own lack of vigilance.

Yesterday a cold front was bearing down on Phoenix. While in other
parts of the country this makes for winter worries, here the front is
a small band of cumulus and a very slight chance of virga. The higher
elevations might see some precipitation. The weather was still great,
it was 3 pm and I was climbing in decent lift with another glider at
the southern end of the Sierra Estrellas-a 15 mile ridge line
southwest of KPHX.

I heard it first. The sound was of a jet close by. The visibility in
the front seat of the Burkhard Grob G103 is excellent, but I could see
nothing. Still the sound, but no airplane. Then, from behind a flight
of two Harriers flew directly between both gliders and slightly above
heading east. As I was at 5500 MSL, and the floor of the Class B wedge
just to the east of my position was 6000 MSL, I would guess that the
jets were close to but under 6000. The encounter lasted all of 10-15
seconds.

I have no idea if they were IFR, nor if they could, should or did
comply with the 200 KIAS speed limit under the shelf of the class B. I
also have no idea whether either I or the other glider was seen by the
lead. After the encounter, I lost my enthusiasm for the flight along
with the thermal and worked my way back to the sailport.

When I fly with students in this area, I hammer the idea that our
piece of the sky is busy due to the natural and man-created boundaries
which will force through traffic to overfly our thermal hunting area.
So I received yet another reminder that I cannot see everything even
part of the time. Were one of the Harriers and me to collide does
anyone think that the TV would have the blame anywhere other than me?

Let's be careful out there. I think I am, but again I got another
chance.

Terry Claussen

[C.Fleming]

It sounds like a scary 10-15 seconds! I know the feeling: I too have had
close encounters with jets. I've been closer than I would have liked to
737's, F-117's, and a B1-b with its wings fully swept back flying
Nap-of-the-Earth. With one 737, I saw its shadow flying directly at mine,
but it took several seconds for me to find it. The other 737 was pointed
out to me by the Approach controller, but neither of us saw each other. The
flight of F-117's I'm sure saw me, for they came up from behind and on my
right, and overtook me on a parallel course. They got my heart pounding
though! But it was the B1-B about 1,000 feet below flying at nearly the
speed of sound that scared the bejeezers out of me! Yes, keep your eyes
outside 99% of the time. Feel for the lift, listen to the audio vario, and
look outside. Not only does this help keep aluminum off of fiberglass, but
it improves your piloting technique as well.

A couple of points about the Harriers you encountered though:
1.) They may or may not have been in contact with ATC, and even if they
were, there would be no separation requirements between them and you.
2.) Military aircraft do not have the 200 knot limitation under the Class B
airspace.
3.) Jet pilots tend not to look outside of the cockpit nearly as much as we
do, and even if they did, it would be extremely difficult for them to see
us. There was a video made of a near-miss a couple of years ago between an
F-16 and a Cessna 172. The footage was from the Heads-Up Display (HUD) of
the F-16. They missed by 15 feet, and you had to play the video in slow
motion to even see the Cessna.

I know those points don't give us a warm and fuzzy feeling, but that's the
world we live in. The best advice that I have is to either avoid the areas
of high risk, communicate with the controlling agency, or work from within
the system to keep the aircraft apart from each other through a Letter of
Agreement (LOA).

Fly safe,
Chris Fleming, 'L9'
ATP B-767, CFI-G


"Terry Claussen" > wrote in message
...
>
> I have no idea if they were IFR, nor if they could, should or did
> comply with the 200 KIAS speed limit under the shelf of the class B. I
> also have no idea whether either I or the other glider was seen by the
> lead. After the encounter, I lost my enthusiasm for the flight along
> with the thermal and worked my way back to the sailport.
>
> When I fly with students in this area, I hammer the idea that our
> piece of the sky is busy due to the natural and man-created boundaries
> which will force through traffic to overfly our thermal hunting area.
> So I received yet another reminder that I cannot see everything even
> part of the time. Were one of the Harriers and me to collide does
> anyone think that the TV would have the blame anywhere other than me?
>
> Let's be careful out there. I think I am, but again I got another
> chance.
>
> Terry Claussen

[bumper]

"Terry Claussen" > wrote in message
...
> A lousy end to what was a beautiful day of soaring, thanks to the USMC
> and my own lack of vigilance.
>

Not sure any reasonable amount of vigilance on your part could be counted on
to avoid a high speed jet from nailing you from behind when you're running
straight in a glider (or other small GA aircraft). I've seen a couple of
fighters pass right close behind another Stemme 1/4 mile ahead of me. Asked
if he'd seen them, he of course hadn't. I suspect, or at least hope, as in
your case too, that the fighters had us and were just doing an exhuberant
buzz job. In any case, not very prudent or responsible of them.

I fly with a transponder and that has to be a help. I've got a ProxAlert R5
on order (www.proxalert.com), so if they're squawking, I'll have their
altitude, range and squawk code too. If their altitude is the same as mine,
with rapidly decreasing range, and I don't have joy on 'em, then like a
raptor approached by a power plane, they'll get to watch me do a wingover
and rather steep spoiler descent.

all the best,
--
bumper ZZ (reverse all after @)>
"Dare to be different . . . circle in sink."

[Ari Paija]

Because you were above 5000MSL what was your pressure setting on altimeter,
standard? You mentioned cold front, low pressure? Are you sure about your
altitude in standard setting? If fighters were at 6000 on standard setting
and also you but because you were using MSL setting just didn't know that?
These helps to understand (I hope) why you two were so close to each other
and it is good to go through why this could happen.
This sounds like I am blaming you, but I don't, as an outsider I am able to
see also probably mistakes you have done.

Ari

[Ted Wagner]

> ... and my own lack of vigilance.

Yeah right, Terry! You might be the most vigilant pilot I've known in my brief soaring (but much longer aviation) career. You were in the back seat five of my first eight flights, two hours and eleven minutes if my logbook is correct, and I learned more in those five flights than I can recount with credibility, including a whole lot about vigilance that hopefully will stick with me. If this can happen to you, it can happen to Captain Safety. A heads-up for all of us.

-ted

p.s. thanks for the nice tow this afternoon. The two hours and twenty-five minutes aloft is my new personal best, and I couldn't even get it up! (Uh, the landing gear on the Pegasus that is. Everything else was clear blue fine...)

[Kirk Stant]

(Terry Claussen) wrote in message >...
> A lousy end to what was a beautiful day of soaring, thanks to the USMC
> and my own lack of vigilance.

Some thoughts on this incident (and comments in subsequent posts):

If I hear a powerplane (any kind!) while cruising and don't see him -
My response is to IMMEDIATELY throw up a wing and pull a hard S-turn.
This does two things: It lets you check behind, where your greatest
threat is, and throws a much bigger visual target for the approaching
plane to see. And he is close enough to hear, he will probably see
you. This works very well for military jets, not so well for
airliners and bugsmashers, from personal experience.

At the altitudes we usually fly, fighters will usually be transiting
at relatively low speed (about 300 knots, perhaps 350). Down low (or
high), they will be going a lot faster (450 - 600 knots) but if you
are that low you are about to landout! But even at 350 knots, you
have time to hear and react to the sound of the approaching fighters
(this from personal experience).

Note I say "fighters" - there will almost always be at least two of
them, maybe more, so do not stop searching after finding one figher -
it's the wingman, not the flight lead, that is most likely to hit you
(because his attention is divided between maintaining formation and
clearing his flightpath). In the US most fighters will be either in
relatively close formation (easy to see both) or spread out 1 to 2
miles line abreast (hard to see both). And it probably isn't the one
that is closest to hitting you that you are going to pick up first,
since he will be closest to nose-on. The good news is that if either
figher sees you, he will warn the other to avoid you. Fighter pilots
look out the window a lot, it is actually something they train at all
the time. Don't count on that from airline or lightplane pilots,
though!

Airliners descending to land are a problem, since you absolutely
cannot hear them - you have to pick them up (since they will probably
not maneuver unless they get really exited!). Of course, they are big
and brightly painted, so are a bit easier to see.

When cruising, obviously it is most dangerous at the VFR hemispheric
altitudes, but at least you should have an idea where the threat is
coming from.

Finally, in the US our transition altitude is 18000ft, and since most
of us use the field elevation to set the altimeter (instead of calling
FSS), there is going to be some altimeter discrepancies - so you
really can't count on using altitude for close deconfliction.


Kirk

[Gary Evans]

Do military aircraft utilize transponder signal based
collision avoidance systems?


At 15:18 02 February 2004, Kirk Stant wrote:
(Terry Claussen) wrote in message
>news:...
>> A lousy end to what was a beautiful day of soaring,
>>thanks to the USMC
>> and my own lack of vigilance.
>
>Some thoughts on this incident (and comments in subsequent
>posts):
>
>If I hear a powerplane (any kind!) while cruising and
>don't see him -
>My response is to IMMEDIATELY throw up a wing and pull
>a hard S-turn.
>This does two things: It lets you check behind, where
>your greatest
>threat is, and throws a much bigger visual target for
>the approaching
>plane to see. And he is close enough to hear, he will
>probably see
>you. This works very well for military jets, not so
>well for
>airliners and bugsmashers, from personal experience.
>
>At the altitudes we usually fly, fighters will usually
>be transiting
>at relatively low speed (about 300 knots, perhaps 350).
> Down low (or
>high), they will be going a lot faster (450 - 600 knots)
>but if you
>are that low you are about to landout! But even at
>350 knots, you
>have time to hear and react to the sound of the approaching
>fighters
>(this from personal experience).
>
>Note I say 'fighters' - there will almost always be
>at least two of
>them, maybe more, so do not stop searching after finding
>one figher -
>it's the wingman, not the flight lead, that is most
>likely to hit you
>(because his attention is divided between maintaining
>formation and
>clearing his flightpath). In the US most fighters
>will be either in
>relatively close formation (easy to see both) or spread
>out 1 to 2
>miles line abreast (hard to see both). And it probably
>isn't the one
>that is closest to hitting you that you are going to
>pick up first,
>since he will be closest to nose-on. The good news
>is that if either
>figher sees you, he will warn the other to avoid you.
> Fighter pilots
>look out the window a lot, it is actually something
>they train at all
>the time. Don't count on that from airline or lightplane
>pilots,
>though!
>
>Airliners descending to land are a problem, since you
>absolutely
>cannot hear them - you have to pick them up (since
>they will probably
>not maneuver unless they get really exited!). Of course,
>they are big
>and brightly painted, so are a bit easier to see.
>
>When cruising, obviously it is most dangerous at the
>VFR hemispheric
>altitudes, but at least you should have an idea where
>the threat is
>coming from.
>
>Finally, in the US our transition altitude is 18000ft,
>and since most
>of us use the field elevation to set the altimeter
>(instead of calling
>FSS), there is going to be some altimeter discrepancies
>- so you
>really can't count on using altitude for close deconfliction.
>
>
>Kirk
>

[C.Fleming]

Transition Altitude in the USA is 18,000 ft., his altimeter setting would
have been QNH, or feet above sea level.

Chris Fleming


"Ari Paija" > wrote in message
...
> Because you were above 5000MSL what was your pressure setting on
altimeter,
> standard? You mentioned cold front, low pressure? Are you sure about your
> altitude in standard setting? If fighters were at 6000 on standard setting
> and also you but because you were using MSL setting just didn't know that?
> These helps to understand (I hope) why you two were so close to each other
> and it is good to go through why this could happen.
> This sounds like I am blaming you, but I don't, as an outsider I am able
to
> see also probably mistakes you have done.
>
> Ari
>
>
>

[Fredrik Thörnell]

Gary Evans > skrev den 2 Feb 2004
15:32:41 GMT:

> Do military aircraft utilize transponder signal based
> collision avoidance systems?

Yes, and this does not amuse controllers as they have a fast jet blasting
upwards at umpteen thousand fpm, setting off all the TCAS bells in the
traffic above the sector. ;)

Cheers,
Fred

[Ian Johnston]

On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 15:15:18 UTC, (Kirk Stant)
wrote:

: But even at 350 knots, you
: have time to hear and react to the sound of the approaching fighters

Where I fly, we tend to meet fighters on the level while hill soaring.
They are following contours, so their paths are not nice predictable
straight lines. It's normally only possible to establish a probable
course half a mile away (they don't camouflage them for nothing) which
means about five seconds from impact. In that time, a glider can't
move much further than 500 feet. And since they're wiggling about, you
can only be reasonably sure of their course for about 2 seconds. Which
isn't long.

It's much easier when there is vertical separation, but then who
cares?

My personal best is a Tornado overtaking me on the same height and
about two wing spans (100 feet) away.

Ian


--

[Eric Greenwell]

In the Washington, Idaho, Oregon area, we were told (last year, by a
military ATC person briefing us at our contest) about 20% of the big
transports have TCAS or equivalent; all new ones get it; old ones are
slowly being retrofitted. None of the fighters have it. A couple of
years ago, a fighter pilot told me fighters can usually pick up small
aircraft on their radar. He didn't comment specifically about when they
are flying close to the ground, like the time Chip Garner was hit, or
the crop duster fatality we had here several years ago when he was hit a
few hundred feet off the ground by a fighter.

If you have a transponder, and the transports are flying high enough to
show on the radar (here they are often quite low during training), the
military ATC will warn them of your presence. Not as good as TCAS on the
transport; better than nothing!

Twice, I've had two A-10s climb by me at 30 degree angles (not in MOAs,
either). I believe they saw me and came up to take a look; I sure hope
so, because I don't think there is any way I can see something coming
that fast from below me, and so quickly.

Gary Evans wrote:
> Do military aircraft utilize transponder signal based
> collision avoidance systems?
>

--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Bill Daniels]

"Todd Pattist" > wrote in message
...
> (Kirk Stant) wrote:
>
> >If I hear a powerplane (any kind!) while cruising and don't see him -
> >My response is to IMMEDIATELY throw up a wing and pull a hard S-turn.
>
> I won't discourage you - but If he's close enough to hear,
> he's pretty darn close. He's also likely to be wings level
> and cruising, so by throwing your wing up, you are probably
> increasing your relative impact cross section, which is
> usually minimum when the wings are parallel and the paths
> are parallel. It's not clear to me that I have enough time
> to turn, spot the danger, and then maneuver to avoid. I may
> be just turning into him. I have to admit I hate it when I
> can hear a powerplane in cruise, but can't see it. What do
> others do?
>

Actually, if you hear an airplane engine, it's likely that it is directly
below you where the sound can reflect back from the ground.

A pilot once told me a story about having cheated on cloud clearance to get
above the bases of a broken cumulus deck. Suddenly, he heard a large number
of big piston engines nearby. Looking in all directions, he couldn't locate
the source of the sound, but it seemed as if a large formation of
multi-engine aircraft would burst out of the clouds at any moment.

This went on for several minutes and he became more and more panicked and
confused since the aircraft making the sound should have passed by.
Finally, a break in the clouds allowed him to see an unlimited hydroplane
race underway on a lake below. Those hydroplanes were powered by V12
aircraft engines.

I'll now tell my near miss story.

Thermalling near Riverside California one day I say a small puff of smoke
off to the south. "That's strange", I thought as I continued to circle.
Next time around the ball of smoke was still there and it seemed bigger.
Several more turns in the thermal and the ball of smoke was getting very pro
minent and there was a black dot in the center of it.

The smoke was jet exhaust and the black dot turned out to be a B52 with me
in his crosshairs. As I dove for clearance, he passed less than 100 feet
above me. That was noisy.

Bill Daniels





Bill Daniels

[Fredrik Thörnell]

Eric Greenwell > skrev den Mon, 02 Feb 2004
09:09:04 -0800:
> Twice, I've had two A-10s climb by me at 30 degree angles (not in MOAs,
> either). I believe they saw me and came up to take a look; I sure hope
> so, because I don't think there is any way I can see something coming
> that fast from below me, and so quickly.

They insist on painting the buggers green, grey and all kinds of strange
colours that can't be seen too! We share our field with a helo batallion
and the eggbeaters are really hard to pick out against the backdrop of
forest!

Strange, those military types. Why don't they paint them neon? ;)

Cheers,
Fred

[Bob Whelan]

"Todd Pattist" wrote in message

> I have to admit I hate it when I
> can hear a powerplane in cruise, but can't see it. What do
> others do?

"Roger that!"
1) Immediately worry/get alarmed.
2) Try to determine locus of noise.
3) Heighten lookout beyond normal paranoia, w. focus on locus.
4) Get real small in the cockpit.
5) Sometimes think, "Ah (insert expletive of choice)!"
6) (So far) Heave sigh of relief...

The ones I've *really* hated are the ones I've heard and *never* spotted.
Followed by the ones I've spotted too late to do anything about. My "best"
close one was nearly being boresighted by a PB4Y firebomber climbing up from
my 6 o'clock (Navy, single-tailed "Liberator"), seeing it, then hearing it,
determining it was going to pass 50-100' below me, and gazing down on 2
heads in the cockpit showing every sign they'd not seen me. Nice view;
alarming situation.

Regards,
Bob W.


---
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[Kirk Stant]

Fredrik Thörnell > wrote in message >...
> Gary Evans > skrev den 2 Feb 2004
> 15:32:41 GMT:
>
> > Do military aircraft utilize transponder signal based
> > collision avoidance systems?
>
> Yes, and this does not amuse controllers as they have a fast jet blasting
> upwards at umpteen thousand fpm, setting off all the TCAS bells in the
> traffic above the sector. ;)
>
> Cheers,
> Fred

It depends. The newer, large transport (and tanker?) military
aircraft probably have TCAS, since they are usually equipped to
airliner standards. But they also will almost always be on an IFR
flight plan.

Fighters are a whole different bag of fish: Most have air-to-air
radar that may or may not see a glider (I have seen F-16 radar detect
and lock on to a glider). Some Harriers have a radar, but not all.
Some fighters also have the capability to interrogate a transponder,
much like ATC does; this includes F-15s and some F-16s, not sure about
the radar equipped Harrier 2. In this case, a transponder in the
glider will help a lot. As far as I know, no fighter-type aircraft
have TCAS or similar.

All military aircraft have transponders and are squawking mode 3 and
mode C - but if there are two fighters in formation usually only the
flight lead will be squawking - the wingman will be in STBY as long as
he is part of the formation. So a TCAD or similar device in a glider
may not detect all the threats.

Kirk

[Shawn Curry]

bumper wrote:

> "Terry Claussen" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>A lousy end to what was a beautiful day of soaring, thanks to the USMC
>>and my own lack of vigilance.
>>
>
>
> Not sure any reasonable amount of vigilance on your part could be counted on
> to avoid a high speed jet from nailing you from behind when you're running
> straight in a glider (or other small GA aircraft). I've seen a couple of
> fighters pass right close behind another Stemme 1/4 mile ahead of me. Asked
> if he'd seen them, he of course hadn't. I suspect, or at least hope, as in
> your case too, that the fighters had us and were just doing an exhuberant
> buzz job. In any case, not very prudent or responsible of them.
>
> I fly with a transponder and that has to be a help. I've got a ProxAlert R5
> on order (www.proxalert.com), so if they're squawking, I'll have their
> altitude, range and squawk code too. If their altitude is the same as mine,
> with rapidly decreasing range, and I don't have joy on 'em, then like a
> raptor approached by a power plane, they'll get to watch me do a wingover
> and rather steep spoiler descent.
>
> all the best,

Bumper, I suspect you're right about the exuberance. But if not, if
these guys are flying head down, shouldn't they have radar plenty
capable of spotting a glider? Its not like Schempp-Hirth or DG make
them intentionally stealthy or anything.
Just Curious.

Shawn

[Mark James Boyd]

If there was a fighter on your 6, why didn't you just deploy
chaff and flares? Ooops...that's another newgroup... :PPP

But one wonders if a bag of flour out
the back might work. We do "ashes" flights, where
remains are scattered over the ocean, and we drop a paper bag
out the window with a string that rips it down the side
as it goes out. It makes a big enough cloud that the
relatives can see it from 2000 feet away.
Hmmm...how to make a "ready deploy" system...

Just another crazy thought...I'm not so enthralled with
S-turning and increasing my impact signature...but
perhaps that ain't a bad idea either...

[Mark James Boyd]

If radar getting you is a problem, for boats they make fairly
compact aluminum "radar reflectors" that are pretty lightweight.
Dunno if they'd fit in a tail section though, kinda
"ship-in-a-bottle" maybe?

[Fredrik Thörnell]

Kirk Stant > skrev den 2 Feb 2004 11:15:10 -0800:

> All military aircraft have transponders and are squawking mode 3 and
> mode C - but if there are two fighters in formation usually only the
> flight lead will be squawking - the wingman will be in STBY as long as
> he is part of the formation. So a TCAD or similar device in a glider
> may not detect all the threats.

My mistake. I was reading 'transponder equipped'. And I agree, I have yet
to see TCAS in fighters. No space, no way of effectively fitting it into
the already complicated peacetime cognitive system without reducing the
wartime capability of same.

Thanks for correcting me!

Cheers,
Fred

[Ulrich Neumann]

"Bill Daniels" > wrote in message >...
> "Todd Pattist" > wrote in message
> ...
> > (Kirk Stant) wrote:
> >
> > >If I hear a powerplane (any kind!) while cruising and don't see him -
> > >My response is to IMMEDIATELY throw up a wing and pull a hard S-turn.
> >
> > I won't discourage you - but If he's close enough to hear,
> > he's pretty darn close. He's also likely to be wings level
> > and cruising, so by throwing your wing up, you are probably
> > increasing your relative impact cross section, which is
> > usually minimum when the wings are parallel and the paths
> > are parallel. It's not clear to me that I have enough time
> > to turn, spot the danger, and then maneuver to avoid. I may
> > be just turning into him. I have to admit I hate it when I
> > can hear a powerplane in cruise, but can't see it. What do
> > others do?
> >
>
> Actually, if you hear an airplane engine, it's likely that it is directly
> below you where the sound can reflect back from the ground.
>
> A pilot once told me a story about having cheated on cloud clearance to get
> above the bases of a broken cumulus deck. Suddenly, he heard a large number
> of big piston engines nearby. Looking in all directions, he couldn't locate
> the source of the sound, but it seemed as if a large formation of
> multi-engine aircraft would burst out of the clouds at any moment.
>
> This went on for several minutes and he became more and more panicked and
> confused since the aircraft making the sound should have passed by.
> Finally, a break in the clouds allowed him to see an unlimited hydroplane
> race underway on a lake below. Those hydroplanes were powered by V12
> aircraft engines.
>
> I'll now tell my near miss story.
>
> Thermalling near Riverside California one day I say a small puff of smoke
> off to the south. "That's strange", I thought as I continued to circle.
> Next time around the ball of smoke was still there and it seemed bigger.
> Several more turns in the thermal and the ball of smoke was getting very pro
> minent and there was a black dot in the center of it.
>
> The smoke was jet exhaust and the black dot turned out to be a B52 with me
> in his crosshairs. As I dove for clearance, he passed less than 100 feet
> above me. That was noisy.
>
> Bill Daniels
>
>
>
>
>
> Bill Daniels


I had two noteworthy near misses with military aircraft in my soaring
career, and in both cases, the military joks did spot me well before I
did.
1.) Back in Germany during a winch launch in a Ka-8. I heard the jet
noise come closer very fast but couldn't spot the jet. Keep in mind, I
was facing about 45° up during the climb. The Lockheed 'Star-Fighter'
passed me at my altitude on my left in a nearly 90° bank angle away
from me only to revert back onto his original flight pass by an
equally sharp manouver. I got a close-up glimps into the inner
workings of a jet engine from where I was - way too close. There had
been reports of jets colliding with gliders during winch launches or
just clipping the cables, if they were lucky.
In retrospect, I think what saved me was the fact that I was in a
steep climb putting the entire silouette of the Ka-8 into the sky.

2.) During the 2002 Nat.'s in Lubbock. I was flying together with a
S-10 south of the Cannon AFB. I had just left the thermal and went on
course, when I heard the jet noise come closer. A second later, a F-16
with the 'fuel-to-noise-converter' in re-heat performed a beautiful
vertical climb about 500ft in front of me and begun to circle around
with a lot of condensation clouds on his wings. I could clearly see
the pilot looking at my fine Libelle. I was more concerned about the
S-10 behind me: since the fighter pilot was fixed on me, he could have
run into the S-10.
I still wonder, how this guy found me, by his own radar or ground
radar, both? Anyhow, after circling around me twice, he went on to
sneak up on 'EY' and gave Tim McAllister a personnalized air show.

Scary situations, both with a good ending. I hope it stays that way.

U. Neumann
Libelle 'GM'

[BTIZ]

be interesting to know where you where when you saw the B-1...

do you know if there were any IR or VR routes in your area? or were you
inside a MOA

and trust me.. when down low and fast.. two sets of eyes are looking outside
and forward..

BT

"C.Fleming" > wrote in message
...
> It sounds like a scary 10-15 seconds! I know the feeling: I too have had
> close encounters with jets. I've been closer than I would have liked to
> 737's, F-117's, and a B1-b with its wings fully swept back flying
> Nap-of-the-Earth. With one 737, I saw its shadow flying directly at mine,
> but it took several seconds for me to find it. The other 737 was pointed
> out to me by the Approach controller, but neither of us saw each other.
The
> flight of F-117's I'm sure saw me, for they came up from behind and on my
> right, and overtook me on a parallel course. They got my heart pounding
> though! But it was the B1-B about 1,000 feet below flying at nearly the
> speed of sound that scared the bejeezers out of me! Yes, keep your eyes
> outside 99% of the time. Feel for the lift, listen to the audio vario,
and
> look outside. Not only does this help keep aluminum off of fiberglass,
but
> it improves your piloting technique as well.
>
> A couple of points about the Harriers you encountered though:
> 1.) They may or may not have been in contact with ATC, and even if they
> were, there would be no separation requirements between them and you.
> 2.) Military aircraft do not have the 200 knot limitation under the Class
B
> airspace.
> 3.) Jet pilots tend not to look outside of the cockpit nearly as much as
we
> do, and even if they did, it would be extremely difficult for them to see
> us. There was a video made of a near-miss a couple of years ago between
an
> F-16 and a Cessna 172. The footage was from the Heads-Up Display (HUD) of
> the F-16. They missed by 15 feet, and you had to play the video in slow
> motion to even see the Cessna.
>
> I know those points don't give us a warm and fuzzy feeling, but that's the
> world we live in. The best advice that I have is to either avoid the
areas
> of high risk, communicate with the controlling agency, or work from within
> the system to keep the aircraft apart from each other through a Letter of
> Agreement (LOA).
>
> Fly safe,
> Chris Fleming, 'L9'
> ATP B-767, CFI-G
>
>
> "Terry Claussen" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > I have no idea if they were IFR, nor if they could, should or did
> > comply with the 200 KIAS speed limit under the shelf of the class B. I
> > also have no idea whether either I or the other glider was seen by the
> > lead. After the encounter, I lost my enthusiasm for the flight along
> > with the thermal and worked my way back to the sailport.
> >
> > When I fly with students in this area, I hammer the idea that our
> > piece of the sky is busy due to the natural and man-created boundaries
> > which will force through traffic to overfly our thermal hunting area.
> > So I received yet another reminder that I cannot see everything even
> > part of the time. Were one of the Harriers and me to collide does
> > anyone think that the TV would have the blame anywhere other than me?
> >
> > Let's be careful out there. I think I am, but again I got another
> > chance.
> >
> > Terry Claussen
>
>

[Scott]

My personal closest was a twin Cessna (414 or something similar) at exactly
my altitude, about 15 feet off my right wingtip and a heading difference of
about 5 to 10 degrees to the right of my heading (in other words, he came up
from almost directly behind me). The only reason I can think of that he
didn't see me clearly in his windshield was that he was screwing his
girlfriend while his wife sat at home and nobody was flying the plane.

--
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Building RV-4
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die

"Ian Johnston" > wrote in message
news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-lBQT51GsdKoW@localhost...
> On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 15:15:18 UTC, (Kirk Stant)
> wrote:
>
> : But even at 350 knots, you
> : have time to hear and react to the sound of the approaching fighters
>
> Where I fly, we tend to meet fighters on the level while hill soaring.
> They are following contours, so their paths are not nice predictable
> straight lines. It's normally only possible to establish a probable
> course half a mile away (they don't camouflage them for nothing) which
> means about five seconds from impact. In that time, a glider can't
> move much further than 500 feet. And since they're wiggling about, you
> can only be reasonably sure of their course for about 2 seconds. Which
> isn't long.
>
> It's much easier when there is vertical separation, but then who
> cares?
>
> My personal best is a Tornado overtaking me on the same height and
> about two wing spans (100 feet) away.
>
> Ian
>
>
> --
>

[Kirk Stant]

"Bill Daniels" > wrote in message >...
>
> Actually, if you hear an airplane engine, it's likely that it is directly
> below you where the sound can reflect back from the ground.
> I'll now tell my near miss story.
>
> Thermalling near Riverside California one day I say a small puff of smoke
> off to the south. "That's strange", I thought as I continued to circle.
> Next time around the ball of smoke was still there and it seemed bigger.
> Several more turns in the thermal and the ball of smoke was getting very pro
> minent and there was a black dot in the center of it.
>
> The smoke was jet exhaust and the black dot turned out to be a B52 with me
> in his crosshairs. As I dove for clearance, he passed less than 100 feet
> above me. That was noisy.
>
> Bill Daniels

Good point, I've listened to the race cars near Turf Soaring many
times while working the house thermal, fun to watch them running
sideways around the short dirttrack.

I once broke hard upon hearing a jet, and turned right into a two-ship
of F-16s who were frantically pulling to get away from me! So we all
saw each other and waggled wings, and went on our business.

OTOH, once while thermalling on the Estrella ridge, just outside a big
piece of class B airspace, I watched a Southwest 737 letting down
towards me, and after a few turns it was obvious that he and I were
going to share a very small piece of sky pretty soon! (Crew must have
been heads down getting their before landing checks done). So when
they got "close enough", I moved aside, let them by (with a wave),
then returned to my thermal, which seemed none the worse for wear.
Kind of like a Laser meeting a supertanker - sometimes right of way is
the wrong way! But was was scary was that this big 737 cruised by
absolutely silently - not a whisper. What if: near cloudbase, poor
vis, same place: No warning whatsoever - Wham, tinkle, tinkle. It is
really important to know where the heavy and fast iron flies in your
area!

Cheers!

Kirk

[Ian Johnston]

(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:<401ec338$1@darkstar>...
> If radar getting you is a problem, for boats they make fairly
> compact aluminum "radar reflectors" that are pretty lightweight.
> Dunno if they'd fit in a tail section though, kinda
> "ship-in-a-bottle" maybe?

I am planning to fit a marine aluminium corner cube into the fuselage
of the Pirat. It's about 12" on each side, very light, and can be
assembled in situ. There more compact reflectors for marine use which
are claimed to have larger radar cross sections, but the emphasis has
to be on "claimed" there.

Active reflectors are also coming in for marine use. They are
not-quite-transponders: when they hear a pulse they send one, or in
some cases several, back. I don't know how compatible they'd be with
airborne radar systems, though.

Ian

[Martin Gregorie]

On 3 Feb 2004 04:55:56 -0800, (Ian Johnston)
wrote:

(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:<401ec338$1@darkstar>...
>> If radar getting you is a problem, for boats they make fairly
>> compact aluminum "radar reflectors" that are pretty lightweight.
>> Dunno if they'd fit in a tail section though, kinda
>> "ship-in-a-bottle" maybe?
>
>I am planning to fit a marine aluminium corner cube into the fuselage
>of the Pirat. It's about 12" on each side, very light, and can be
>assembled in situ. There more compact reflectors for marine use which
>are claimed to have larger radar cross sections, but the emphasis has
>to be on "claimed" there.
>
Sounds interesting. Can you supply more detail yet, like cost, weight,
sources?



--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

[C.Fleming]

Yeah, I have a published 10nm-wide IR route nearby. It extends from 500 ft
AGL to 7,000 ft MSL. Whenever I head out on cross-countries, I get their
status, and plan accordingly. I've seen F-16's and F-117's mostly, but it
was the big B1-b that snuck up on me! I try to transit the route as close
to 90 degrees and as rapidly as possible. The time with the B1-b had me hit
some serious sink 10 minutes before, and I had to thermal in the area; which
I never do! The terrain is very rugged (canyons, mountains, and rolling
sand dunes), so I have to stay high, usually above 10,000 ft.

Chris Fleming, 'L9'
El Paso, Texas

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:wBETb.7074$IF1.1160@fed1read01...
> be interesting to know where you where when you saw the B-1...
>
> do you know if there were any IR or VR routes in your area? or were you
> inside a MOA
>
> and trust me.. when down low and fast.. two sets of eyes are looking
outside
> and forward..
>
> BT
>

[Fredrik Thörnell]

Ian Johnston > skrev den 3 Feb 2004 04:55:56 -0800:

> I am planning to fit a marine aluminium corner cube into the fuselage
> of the Pirat. It's about 12" on each side, very light, and can be
> assembled in situ. There more compact reflectors for marine use which
> are claimed to have larger radar cross sections, but the emphasis has
> to be on "claimed" there.

It'd be interesting to find out what the speed threshold for the doppler
radars typically is. Unfortunately, that is not a piece of information
they go out of their way to make available. :D The question is, above or
below the speed of a glider in a thermal?

Cheers,
Fred

[BTIZ]

we have no problems with local ATC radar picking up our Grob 103, LS-4,
Libelle, and of course.. the Schweitzer Iron, 2-33 and 1-26

but they have to be looking at Primary Radar.. and not just the transponders
BT

"Martin Gregorie" > wrote in message
...
> On 3 Feb 2004 04:55:56 -0800, (Ian Johnston)
> wrote:
>
> (Mark James Boyd) wrote in message
news:<401ec338$1@darkstar>...
> >> If radar getting you is a problem, for boats they make fairly
> >> compact aluminum "radar reflectors" that are pretty lightweight.
> >> Dunno if they'd fit in a tail section though, kinda
> >> "ship-in-a-bottle" maybe?
> >
> >I am planning to fit a marine aluminium corner cube into the fuselage
> >of the Pirat. It's about 12" on each side, very light, and can be
> >assembled in situ. There more compact reflectors for marine use which
> >are claimed to have larger radar cross sections, but the emphasis has
> >to be on "claimed" there.
> >
> Sounds interesting. Can you supply more detail yet, like cost, weight,
> sources?
>
>
>
> --
> martin@ : Martin Gregorie
> gregorie : Harlow, UK
> demon :
> co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
> uk :
>

[Dave Houlton]

Fredrik Thörnell wrote:
> Ian Johnston > skrev den 3 Feb 2004 04:55:56 -0800:
>
>> I am planning to fit a marine aluminium corner cube into the fuselage
>> of the Pirat. It's about 12" on each side, very light, and can be
>> assembled in situ. There more compact reflectors for marine use which
>> are claimed to have larger radar cross sections, but the emphasis has
>> to be on "claimed" there.
>
>
> It'd be interesting to find out what the speed threshold for the doppler
> radars typically is. Unfortunately, that is not a piece of information
> they go out of their way to make available. :D The question is, above
> or below the speed of a glider in a thermal?
>
> Cheers,
> Fred

In an air surveillance radar the doppler information (instantaneous
radial velocity) is used primarily to reject stationary targets that
creep in via the sidelobes (as opposed to a weather radar which is
really interested in all the IRV data it can gather). In my experience
the doppler clutter threshold was set very low - say 1 or 2 knots. My
experience is military, where the cutoff was set as low as possible to
counter the postulated "spiral in at low radial velocity" attack, but I
believe ATC radar would also have compelling reasons to keep the doppler
cutoff very low (don't want tangential targets disappearing on you).

Where gliders are likely to disappear is in the processing of multiple
radar returns into tracks. A variety of clutter rejection algorithms
can be used, and we never used anything quite as simple as "under X
knots, throw it out". We did, however, try very hard to eliminate bird
tracks, and glider flight patterns obviously have much in common with
certain birds. The distinction is between "visible to ATC" and "tracked
by ATC" - and we'd really like to be tracked.

In short, I don't think there is any simple answer to at what speed a
glider will be tracked by ATC. And while I think using a corner
reflector to provide a great big RCS is a great idea, I can still
imagine the ATC software thinking, "Hmmm, that must be a GREAT BIG hawk
out there...".

IMHO,
Dave

[Ian Johnston]

On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 16:36:06 UTC, Martin Gregorie
> wrote:

: On 3 Feb 2004 04:55:56 -0800, (Ian Johnston)
: wrote:

: >I am planning to fit a marine aluminium corner cube into the fuselage
: >of the Pirat. It's about 12" on each side, very light, and can be
: >assembled in situ. There more compact reflectors for marine use which
: >are claimed to have larger radar cross sections, but the emphasis has
: >to be on "claimed" there.
: >
: Sounds interesting. Can you supply more detail yet, like cost, weight,
: sources?

Any chandler will sell them. I'm not sure who does mail order these
days, as a coupleof big names went bust. Gaelforce in Inverness,
maybe, or Jimmy Green in Devon?

I think they are about thirty quid and the one I have on the boat
weighs less than a pound.

Ian

[szd-55 flyer]

(Ian Johnston) wrote in message >...
> (Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:<401ec338$1@darkstar>...
>> I am planning to fit a marine aluminium corner cube into the fuselage
> of the Pirat. .
> Ian
Pirat and all other gliders from Poland have metalic primer
as radar reflector.
Ryszard Krolikowski