amateur design consultant?

[Shin Gou]

Could anyone give me a suggestion of good airplane design consultant
with a reasonable service charge for light/sport airplane conceptual
design? A professional design agency would be great, but I believe a
graduate student in aeronautical engineering should be able to help me
out.

I am not an engineer and only have private pilot's paper test level
aeronautical knowledge(don't sneer at me. I passed the test in the
first try!), but I am now just fascinated with the idea of designing
and building and yes, flying my own airplane! I am brainstorming a
twin 3/4 seat camper design using two Rotax 912S or Jabiru 3300 with
reliability(twin), simplicity(tube and fabric?), ruggedness(tube and
fabric and STOL), comfortability(large cabin for two sleeping)and low
cost in mind. I know I probably wouldn't have enough money and time to
build it anytime soon, but I just can't wait for proving the design
and seeing the airplane layed out on the blue print!

So now my goal is to get to the first stage: the conceptual and
preliminary design. Then I will save money for structure design and
stability analysis etc. Finally I hope I can have the construction
plan and then from there I can build the plane piece by piece over
time.

I know nowadays such light airplane design could be totally done on a
computer and there're some dirty cheap entry-level airplane design CAD
softwares I can play with, but these softwares do need human input
with sufficient aeronautical knowledge even though they look like a
dummy's software for those enginners who operate 150K REAL airplane
design CAD systems. So is there anyone good at any of those softwares
like AirplanePDQ or even X-Plane PlaneMaker who would like to help me?

Thank you in advance.

Shin Gou

[Richard Lamb]

Shin Gou wrote:
>
> Could anyone give me a suggestion of good airplane design consultant
> with a reasonable service charge for light/sport airplane conceptual
> design? A professional design agency would be great, but I believe a
> graduate student in aeronautical engineering should be able to help me
> out.
>
> I am not an engineer and only have private pilot's paper test level
> aeronautical knowledge(don't sneer at me. I passed the test in the
> first try!), but I am now just fascinated with the idea of designing
> and building and yes, flying my own airplane! I am brainstorming a
> twin 3/4 seat camper design using two Rotax 912S or Jabiru 3300 with
> reliability(twin), simplicity(tube and fabric?), ruggedness(tube and
> fabric and STOL), comfortability(large cabin for two sleeping)and low
> cost in mind. I know I probably wouldn't have enough money and time to
> build it anytime soon, but I just can't wait for proving the design
> and seeing the airplane layed out on the blue print!
>
> So now my goal is to get to the first stage: the conceptual and
> preliminary design. Then I will save money for structure design and
> stability analysis etc. Finally I hope I can have the construction
> plan and then from there I can build the plane piece by piece over
> time.
>
> I know nowadays such light airplane design could be totally done on a
> computer and there're some dirty cheap entry-level airplane design CAD
> softwares I can play with, but these softwares do need human input
> with sufficient aeronautical knowledge even though they look like a
> dummy's software for those enginners who operate 150K REAL airplane
> design CAD systems. So is there anyone good at any of those softwares
> like AirplanePDQ or even X-Plane PlaneMaker who would like to help me?
>
> Thank you in advance.
>
> Shin Gou


Any CAD and any spreadsheet.

Those are the modern tools of creation, and as great an 'equalizer'
as the Colt's 45 was in the Olde West.

HOW you use them, as you pointed out, is the critical question.

While the programs you asked about can produce results, it's left up
to the operator to determine if those results are valid.
"Therein lies the rub", as the Bard put it.

There are a lot of web sites that deal with aerodynamics and design.
That would be one possible way to get up to speed.

Another, more traditional way, is to acquire and study - books.
Maybe the guys here on the group will chip in with suggestions.

At first "Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators" looked mighty intimidating.
That was most of a lifetime ago, and now it seems almost superficial.

But one must start somewhere...

Below is the source listing for a simple (minded?) little program
that I often use to study the relationship between wing design
options.

It doesn't produce pretty pictures or anything like that.
But it _does_ let one play with the major parameters and see how
they interact.

The idea is to pick one parameter to SOLVE for, based on given
values for the rest of them.

Coefficient of lift, wing Surface, Airspeed, and total Lift are
the changeable values. It assumes a sea level standard day.

I wrote it in the BASIC language and should run under just about
any interpreter or compiler with little if any modifications required.

This version is much better structured, and the line numbers have been
discarded in favor of Labels so that even the most rabid C-Hag can
follow. :)

All I ask in return is that if you take it and extend it into
something more useful, send me a copy? (source code, dude!)


Best wishes,

Richard Lamb
http://home.earthlink.net/~n6228l/


============= cut here =================

FF = 0
TT = NOT FF
doRun = TT
KK$ = "LVSCQ?"
'initial values:
L = 555
W = L
A = 55
V = A * 1.4666
CL = 1.2
S = 125

CLS
PRINT "Finite Wing Theory"; " print"
WHILE doRun = TT
PRINT "[.L.V.S.C.Q.] for Lift Velocity Surface Clift Quit "; Z$
Z$ = ""

WHILE Z$ = ""
Z$ = UCASE$(INKEY$):
IF Z$ = CHR$(13) THEN Z$ = ""
IF Z$ = CHR$(27) THEN Z$ = "Q"
IF INSTR(KK$, Z$) = 0 THEN Z$ = ""
WEND

PRINT
SELECT CASE UCASE$(Z$)
CASE "L"
PRINT " Calculate LIFT.............."
GOSUB doLift
CASE "V"
PRINT " Calculate Velocity.........."
GOSUB doVel
CASE "S"
PRINT " Calculate Wing Area........."
GOSUB doSurf
CASE "C"
PRINT " Calculate Coef. of Lift....."
GOSUB doCL
CASE "?"
'GOSUB doDump
PRINT
PRINT " Variable dump:---------------------------"
PRINT " Lift / Weight "; L; " lbs"
PRINT " Airspeed "; A; " mph = "; V; " fps"
PRINT " Coefec of Lift "; CL
PRINT " Wing Area "; S; " sq ft"
PRINT " -----------------------------------------"
CASE "Q"
doRun = FF
END SELECT

PRINT : PRINT
WEND
END


doLift:
GOSUB GetSurf
GOSUB GetVel
GOSUB GetCL
L = .001188 * CL * V * V * S
PRINT " Lift = "; L
RETURN

doVel:
GOSUB GetSurf
GOSUB GetCL
GOSUB GetWgt
V = SQR(L / (.001188 * CL * S))
A = V * .681
PRINT " Velocity = ";
PRINT USING "#,###.#"; A;
PRINT " MPH = ";
PRINT USING "#,###.#"; V;
PRINT " FPS"
RETURN

doSurf:
GOSUB GetCL
GOSUB GetWgt
GOSUB GetVel
S = L / (.001188 * CL * V * V)
PRINT " Surface = "; S
RETURN

doCL:
GOSUB GetWgt
GOSUB GetVel
GOSUB GetSurf
CL = L / (.001188 * S * V * V)
PRINT " Coeff. Lift = "; CL
RETURN

GetSurf:
PRINT " Wing Area (sq ft) ["; S; "]";
INPUT ""; X
IF X <> 0 THEN S = X
RETURN

GetVel:
PRINT " Airspeed (mph) ["; A; "]";
INPUT ""; X
IF X <> 0 THEN
A = X
V = X * 1.467
END IF
RETURN

GetCL:
PRINT " Coeff. Lift (#.##) ["; CL; "]";
INPUT ""; X
IF X <> 0 THEN CL = X
RETURN

GetWgt:
PRINT " Gross Weight (lbs) ["; L; "}";
INPUT ""; X
IF X <> 0 THEN
W = X ' steady state W = L
L = X
END IF
RETURN

[Shin Gou]

By the way, I am in Washington DC.

Shin



(Shin Gou) wrote in message >...
> Could anyone give me a suggestion of good airplane design consultant
> with a reasonable service charge for light/sport airplane conceptual
> design? A professional design agency would be great, but I believe a
> graduate student in aeronautical engineering should be able to help me
> out.
>
> I am not an engineer and only have private pilot's paper test level
> aeronautical knowledge(don't sneer at me. I passed the test in the
> first try!), but I am now just fascinated with the idea of designing
> and building and yes, flying my own airplane! I am brainstorming a
> twin 3/4 seat camper design using two Rotax 912S or Jabiru 3300 with
> reliability(twin), simplicity(tube and fabric?), ruggedness(tube and
> fabric and STOL), comfortability(large cabin for two sleeping)and low
> cost in mind. I know I probably wouldn't have enough money and time to
> build it anytime soon, but I just can't wait for proving the design
> and seeing the airplane layed out on the blue print!
>
> So now my goal is to get to the first stage: the conceptual and
> preliminary design. Then I will save money for structure design and
> stability analysis etc. Finally I hope I can have the construction
> plan and then from there I can build the plane piece by piece over
> time.
>
> I know nowadays such light airplane design could be totally done on a
> computer and there're some dirty cheap entry-level airplane design CAD
> softwares I can play with, but these softwares do need human input
> with sufficient aeronautical knowledge even though they look like a
> dummy's software for those enginners who operate 150K REAL airplane
> design CAD systems. So is there anyone good at any of those softwares
> like AirplanePDQ or even X-Plane PlaneMaker who would like to help me?
>
> Thank you in advance.
>
> Shin Gou

[Luo Zheng]

I can help you in aircraft instruments which are cheaper and stable.

If you are interested in them, please browse my Web site.
http://www.ming-da.com

Best Regards

Luo

[Richard Lamb]

Luo Zheng wrote:
>
> I can help you in aircraft instruments which are cheaper and stable.
>
> If you are interested in them, please browse my Web site.
> http://www.ming-da.com
>
> Best Regards
>
> Luo

Give me a little more forplay, Luo.

Too many web weenies playing silly buggers these days.

Richard

[Rob Turk]

"Luo Zheng" > wrote in message
om...
> I can help you in aircraft instruments which are cheaper and stable.
>
> If you are interested in them, please browse my Web site.
> http://www.ming-da.com
>
> Best Regards
>

Interesting to see your company has years of experience in aircraft
instuments (according to your web site), and then turns to this group to ask
how long an electric gyro should last. Having some reliability problems,
perhaps?!?

Rob

[Rob Turk]

"Richard Riley" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:59:07 +0200, "Rob Turk"
> > wrote:
>
> :"Luo Zheng" > wrote in message
> . com...
> :> I can help you in aircraft instruments which are cheaper and stable.
> :>
> :> If you are interested in them, please browse my Web site.
> :> http://www.ming-da.com
> :>
> :> Best Regards
> :>
> :
> :Interesting to see your company has years of experience in aircraft
> :instuments (according to your web site), and then turns to this group to
ask
> :how long an electric gyro should last. Having some reliability problems,
> :perhaps?!?
>
> I'm still not sure that's what he was asking. It might be - but I
> think maybe he was trying to find out the size of the US market for
> his product.

That's a possibility as well. However, the electric gyro shown on his
website looks very similar to the 'non-TCO' gyro listed by Aircraft Spruce.
It's made in China too. When I wanted to order it through the Aircraft
Spruce UK subsidiary they strongly adviced against it due to reliability
issues with the bearings. They claimed that the gyro's all stopped working
after 50-100 hours of operation.

I'm not absolutely sure that they are both the same product (China is a big
country..) but I found the correlation between his 'how long can it be used'
question and the bearing issue I was warned for too much of a coincidence
not to mention it..

Rob

[Richard Lamb]

Some updated sketches on the BK 1.?/L-1.?
(names changed to protect the innocent)

Some changes were dictated by a more realistic wieght and balance.

Since this version is being developed for Bruce, we'll stick with his
designation.

Personally. I like the long snout version, and am reserving the L-One
name for that one. Eventually I'll get the file names changed. Until
then, just deal with it...


L-One?
With the pilot's feet aft of the rear spar, there would be room for
a huge fuel capacity - right on the center of lift. Little or no
fuel trim changes. Call it six to eight hours endurance?
Depends a lot on what the Mighty V-Dub can lift on a relatively
small wing.

And! include the relief tube as an integral part of the design.

Imagine (if you will) a small backwards facing funnel extension
on the aft end of one of the wheel pants to supply a small low pressure
area (to help evacuate the tube). Light, simple, and damned important!

But that would be a completely different plane from what Bruce asked
for.

So...

http://home.earthlink.net/~n6228l/l-one.htm

[Jay]

Get X-Plane, it costs nearly nothing for the older retail version you
can get on E-Bay. If you learn it and like it, you can go buy the
newest version from the author.

It won't tell you anything structural (which does influence the
design), however it will give you aerodynamic information that was
unavaiable to even the big boys 10 years ago. Start off by studying
some of the more mature aircraft designs that you can find and modify
from there to make your design. At the very least you'll have
bulkhead shapes, airfoils, flight surface sizes/shapes and some
preliminary performance numbers when you're finished.

Regards

p.s. As far as structural analysis, you can start with an old textbook
from Statics 101, especially since you're talking about a steel tube
structure.

(Shin Gou) wrote in message >...
> Could anyone give me a suggestion of good airplane design consultant
> with a reasonable service charge for light/sport airplane conceptual
> design? A professional design agency would be great, but I believe a
> graduate student in aeronautical engineering should be able to help me
> out.
>
> I am not an engineer and only have private pilot's paper test level
> aeronautical knowledge(don't sneer at me. I passed the test in the
> first try!), but I am now just fascinated with the idea of designing
> and building and yes, flying my own airplane! I am brainstorming a
> twin 3/4 seat camper design using two Rotax 912S or Jabiru 3300 with
> reliability(twin), simplicity(tube and fabric?), ruggedness(tube and
> fabric and STOL), comfortability(large cabin for two sleeping)and low
> cost in mind. I know I probably wouldn't have enough money and time to
> build it anytime soon, but I just can't wait for proving the design
> and seeing the airplane layed out on the blue print!
>
> So now my goal is to get to the first stage: the conceptual and
> preliminary design. Then I will save money for structure design and
> stability analysis etc. Finally I hope I can have the construction
> plan and then from there I can build the plane piece by piece over
> time.
>
> I know nowadays such light airplane design could be totally done on a
> computer and there're some dirty cheap entry-level airplane design CAD
> softwares I can play with, but these softwares do need human input
> with sufficient aeronautical knowledge even though they look like a
> dummy's software for those enginners who operate 150K REAL airplane
> design CAD systems. So is there anyone good at any of those softwares
> like AirplanePDQ or even X-Plane PlaneMaker who would like to help me?
>
> Thank you in advance.
>
> Shin Gou

[Shin Gou]

Rob,

You are right. I am a Chinese currently working and flying in the US
(no, they are not together. Flying is just my hobby.) Both military
and civil Chinese airplane manufacturers(yes, there ARE airplane
manufacturers in China) avoid using China-made avionics if they have
the extra budget though I don't know if they all use China-made
gyros(they use China-made non-gyro instruments.)

I am 99% sure this guy's products are the same as those listed on
Aircraft Spruce. I don't know this guy, but I've talked to some
airplane homebuilders
in China (yes, there ARE airplane homebuilders in China though they
have to work mostly underground) who talked to this guy who obviously
boosted the sale of his products to overseas markets. By the way, this
guy's company is the subsidiary of the subsidiary of China's state-run
trade corp. of aviation products, so all this guy's products are
actually TSO's in China. But how could a gyro TSOed in China fail in
50-100 hours? mmm, don't ask me this question, I want to go back to
China and don't want to be killed by my extremist patriotist folks.

Shin


"Rob Turk" > wrote in message >...
> "Richard Riley" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:59:07 +0200, "Rob Turk"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > :"Luo Zheng" > wrote in message
> > . com...
> > :> I can help you in aircraft instruments which are cheaper and stable.
> > :>
> > :> If you are interested in them, please browse my Web site.
> > :> http://www.ming-da.com
> > :>
> > :> Best Regards
> > :>
> > :
> > :Interesting to see your company has years of experience in aircraft
> > :instuments (according to your web site), and then turns to this group to
> ask
> > :how long an electric gyro should last. Having some reliability problems,
> > :perhaps?!?
> >
> > I'm still not sure that's what he was asking. It might be - but I
> > think maybe he was trying to find out the size of the US market for
> > his product.
>
> That's a possibility as well. However, the electric gyro shown on his
> website looks very similar to the 'non-TCO' gyro listed by Aircraft Spruce.
> It's made in China too. When I wanted to order it through the Aircraft
> Spruce UK subsidiary they strongly adviced against it due to reliability
> issues with the bearings. They claimed that the gyro's all stopped working
> after 50-100 hours of operation.
>
> I'm not absolutely sure that they are both the same product (China is a big
> country..) but I found the correlation between his 'how long can it be used'
> question and the bearing issue I was warned for too much of a coincidence
> not to mention it..
>
> Rob

[nauga]

Jay wrote...

> Get X-Plane...

> ...it will give you aerodynamic information that was
> unavaiable to even the big boys 10 years ago...

1. Better make sure you understand what X-plane
*doesn't* tell you aerodynamically before you cut metal, and

2. Blade element theory's been around for a lot longer
than 10 years. X-Plane pulls it together in a slick
package for a household user, but people have been using it
for far longer than 10 years.

Dave 'assume a spherical cow' Hyde

[bryan chaisone]

Shin,

I'm pretty good with AutoCad and Excel. I live in Sterling, about 40
min. from DC if not rush hour. I would be interested helping out.
Right now I am working on a trike using a hang glider that I bought.
I also bought a Zenoah engine and a propeller from Tenn-Prop. I just
need to build the trike frame itself and put wheels on it.

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

(Shin Gou) wrote in message >...
> By the way, I am in Washington DC.
>
> Shin
>
>
>
> (Shin Gou) wrote in message >...
> > Could anyone give me a suggestion of good airplane design consultant
> > with a reasonable service charge for light/sport airplane conceptual
> > design? A professional design agency would be great, but I believe a
> > graduate student in aeronautical engineering should be able to help me
> > out.
> >
> > I am not an engineer and only have private pilot's paper test level
> > aeronautical knowledge(don't sneer at me. I passed the test in the
> > first try!), but I am now just fascinated with the idea of designing
> > and building and yes, flying my own airplane! I am brainstorming a
> > twin 3/4 seat camper design using two Rotax 912S or Jabiru 3300 with
> > reliability(twin), simplicity(tube and fabric?), ruggedness(tube and
> > fabric and STOL), comfortability(large cabin for two sleeping)and low
> > cost in mind. I know I probably wouldn't have enough money and time to
> > build it anytime soon, but I just can't wait for proving the design
> > and seeing the airplane layed out on the blue print!
> >
> > So now my goal is to get to the first stage: the conceptual and
> > preliminary design. Then I will save money for structure design and
> > stability analysis etc. Finally I hope I can have the construction
> > plan and then from there I can build the plane piece by piece over
> > time.
> >
> > I know nowadays such light airplane design could be totally done on a
> > computer and there're some dirty cheap entry-level airplane design CAD
> > softwares I can play with, but these softwares do need human input
> > with sufficient aeronautical knowledge even though they look like a
> > dummy's software for those enginners who operate 150K REAL airplane
> > design CAD systems. So is there anyone good at any of those softwares
> > like AirplanePDQ or even X-Plane PlaneMaker who would like to help me?
> >
> > Thank you in advance.
> >
> > Shin Gou

[bryan chaisone]

Shin,

I'm pretty good with AutoCad and Excel. I live in Sterling, VA, about
40 min. from DC if not rush hour. I would be interested helping out.
Right now I am working on a trike using a hang glider that I bought.
I also bought a Zenoah engine and a propeller from Tenn-Prop. I just
need to build the trike frame itself and put wheels on it.

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

(Shin Gou) wrote in message >...
> By the way, I am in Washington DC.
>
> Shin
>
>
>
> (Shin Gou) wrote in message >...
> > Could anyone give me a suggestion of good airplane design consultant
> > with a reasonable service charge for light/sport airplane conceptual
> > design? A professional design agency would be great, but I believe a
> > graduate student in aeronautical engineering should be able to help me
> > out.
> >
> > I am not an engineer and only have private pilot's paper test level
> > aeronautical knowledge(don't sneer at me. I passed the test in the
> > first try!), but I am now just fascinated with the idea of designing
> > and building and yes, flying my own airplane! I am brainstorming a
> > twin 3/4 seat camper design using two Rotax 912S or Jabiru 3300 with
> > reliability(twin), simplicity(tube and fabric?), ruggedness(tube and
> > fabric and STOL), comfortability(large cabin for two sleeping)and low
> > cost in mind. I know I probably wouldn't have enough money and time to
> > build it anytime soon, but I just can't wait for proving the design
> > and seeing the airplane layed out on the blue print!
> >
> > So now my goal is to get to the first stage: the conceptual and
> > preliminary design. Then I will save money for structure design and
> > stability analysis etc. Finally I hope I can have the construction
> > plan and then from there I can build the plane piece by piece over
> > time.
> >
> > I know nowadays such light airplane design could be totally done on a
> > computer and there're some dirty cheap entry-level airplane design CAD
> > softwares I can play with, but these softwares do need human input
> > with sufficient aeronautical knowledge even though they look like a
> > dummy's software for those enginners who operate 150K REAL airplane
> > design CAD systems. So is there anyone good at any of those softwares
> > like AirplanePDQ or even X-Plane PlaneMaker who would like to help me?
> >
> > Thank you in advance.
> >
> > Shin Gou

[Jay]

A theory and a usable implimentation are very different things. A
slick package that hasn't been available to anyone until recently
thanks to the technology development pushed by the personal computing
boom. I've been working aerospace for years and seen the calibre or
software they used 10 years ago and it sucked big time compared to
what is available for $5 to any hobbiest with an E-bay account.

.."nauga" > wrote in message et>...
> Jay wrote...
>
> > Get X-Plane...
>
> > ...it will give you aerodynamic information that was
> > unavaiable to even the big boys 10 years ago...
>
> 1. Better make sure you understand what X-plane
> *doesn't* tell you aerodynamically before you cut metal, and
>
> 2. Blade element theory's been around for a lot longer
> than 10 years. X-Plane pulls it together in a slick
> package for a household user, but people have been using it
> for far longer than 10 years.
>
> Dave 'assume a spherical cow' Hyde
>

[nauga]

Jay wrote...

> I've been working aerospace for years and seen the calibre or
> software they used 10 years ago and it sucked big time compared to
> what is available for $5 to any hobbiest with an E-bay account.

Done a lot of CFD then, have you? Look, I agree with what I
*think* you're trying to say, in that the tools in use in
industry then and now today aren't always as 'user friendly'
as what's available on the open market, but to say that
XPlane provides *accurate* aero data that the big guys couldn't
do equally as well 10 years ago is not only misleading, it's
flat out wrong. XPlane simply makes it available (and affordable)
on the open market, for the layman. Whether said layman is
wise to blindly accept the output of this type of software
without understanding its limitations is another matter
altogether. It's not difficult to guess which side of that
argument I'm on.

Dave 'GIGO' Hyde