90 Degree turn while slipping

[ISoar]

I can't find anything in my books about how to make a 90 degree turn
(e.g., downwind to base) while in a full slip, but maybe that's
because it's so obvious. (Given my limited # hours, just because
something seems obvious to me doesn't mean I'm not going to check it
out.) I figure I'll turn with roll input, but can't picture the side
effects from doing that. If I know the side effects I can have a
chance of being ahead of the plane during the maneuver.

Anyway, is there going to be any adverse yaw from turning in this
mode? Even if there is, I don't think I can do anything about it,
but enquiring minds want to know. The other question is if the
attitude going to change as a side effect of the roll input. This
will be in a 2-33.

Thanks

[Pete Zeugma]

At 02:42 05 February 2004, Isoar wrote:
>I can't find anything in my books about how to make
>a 90 degree turn
>(e.g., downwind to base) while in a full slip,

Funny that, but then you should take a massive pinch
of salt when you read posts about making you turns
with the rudder. If you need to side slip at all during
your downwind, base and final, best do it on the straight
parts and use proper coordinated well banked turns
between. The one thing you should always avoid getting
into is turning with excessive amounts of rudder. Why?
This is where spins develop from, because in the event
of you stalling, the likelyhood of you surviving when
low, as you would be on your base turn, or final turn
are very slim. Get into the habit of flying turns in
a coordinated manner right from the start, at all times.

>I figure I'll turn with roll input, but can't picture
>the side
>effects from doing that.

There are no side effects of performing a correct well
banked coordinated turn.

>If I know the side effects I can have a
>chance of being ahead of the plane during the maneuver.

If you fly in a coordinated manner you dont have to
think ahead of the plane

>
>Anyway, is there going to be any adverse yaw from turning
>in >this mode?

any aileron input will produce adverse yaw

>Even if there is, I don't think I can do anything
>about it,

if you were flying coordinated turns it would not be
something you have to factor in.

>but enquiring minds want to know.

absolutely. problem though with this news group, which
is ment to be a gliding news group, there are to many
power pilots preaching power techniques!

>The other question is if the
>attitude going to change as a side effect of the roll
>input. This
>will be in a 2-33.

there will always be an attitude change in any turn.

>
>Thanks
>
>
>

[Marc Ramsey]

ISoar wrote:
> I can't find anything in my books about how to make a 90 degree turn
> (e.g., downwind to base) while in a full slip, but maybe that's
> because it's so obvious. (Given my limited # hours, just because
> something seems obvious to me doesn't mean I'm not going to check it
> out.)

Speaking for myself, when I say I'm making a "slipping turn from base to
final", what I really mean is that I start off in a coordinated
moderately banked turn. When the nose is still pointing something like
20 to 30 degrees away from the runway, I slowly start feeding in
opposite rudder to transition into a forward slip. Adjustments are
made in yaw, pitch, and roll, to maintain a stable forward slip on the
runway heading until any excess altitude is eliminated, at which point I
transition to straight flight and a normal landing.

If this is something you haven't done, you definitely should get an
instructor to show you how, this is not something you want to be
learning on your own...

Marc

[David Hodgson]

At 08:24 05 February 2004, Pete Zeugma wrote:
>At 02:42 05 February 2004, Isoar wrote:
>>I can't find anything in my books about how to make
>>a 90 degree turn
>>(e.g., downwind to base) while in a full slip,
>
>Funny that, but then you should take a massive pinch
>of salt when you read posts about making you turns
>with the rudder. If you need to side slip at all during
>your downwind, base and final, best do it on the straight
>parts and use proper coordinated well banked turns
>between. The one thing you should always avoid getting
>into is turning with excessive amounts of rudder. Why?
>This is where spins develop from, because in the event
>of you stalling, the likelyhood of you surviving when
>low, as you would be on your base turn, or final turn
>are very slim. Get into the habit of flying turns in
>a coordinated manner right from the start, at all times.
>
Couldn't agree more!
What must be remembered about these sort of discussions
is there is a significant difference between 'what
can be done' and 'what should be done'
Having to use slipping to this extent to get rid of
excess height can only be the result of a very poorly
planned circuit (very tight ridge sites excepted).
Slipping can be useful to get in to a small field off
site but even then should only be required on finals.
It is far better to plan, execute, monitor and adjust
your circuit all the way round than have to take this
sort of corrective measure. Once you are in this situation
then you have severly limited your options which is
never a good idea in a glider.

Dave H

[Bert Willing]

Funny thing this discussions. Slipping turns from base to final were part of
my practical exam to get my license in Germany. Well that's now 20+ years
ago, and we did that on Ka7, Ka8 and things like that.
It is coordinated flight, by the way.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Marc Ramsey" > a écrit dans le message de
. com...
> ISoar wrote:
> > I can't find anything in my books about how to make a 90 degree turn
> > (e.g., downwind to base) while in a full slip, but maybe that's
> > because it's so obvious. (Given my limited # hours, just because
> > something seems obvious to me doesn't mean I'm not going to check it
> > out.)
>
> Speaking for myself, when I say I'm making a "slipping turn from base to
> final", what I really mean is that I start off in a coordinated
> moderately banked turn. When the nose is still pointing something like
> 20 to 30 degrees away from the runway, I slowly start feeding in
> opposite rudder to transition into a forward slip. Adjustments are
> made in yaw, pitch, and roll, to maintain a stable forward slip on the
> runway heading until any excess altitude is eliminated, at which point I
> transition to straight flight and a normal landing.
>
> If this is something you haven't done, you definitely should get an
> instructor to show you how, this is not something you want to be
> learning on your own...
>
> Marc
>
>

[Andy Durbin]

ISoar > wrote in message >...
> I can't find anything in my books about how to make a 90 degree turn
> (e.g., downwind to base) while in a full slip, but maybe that's
> because it's so obvious. (Given my limited # hours, just because
> something seems obvious to me doesn't mean I'm not going to check it
> out.) I figure I'll turn with roll input, but can't picture the side
> effects from doing that. If I know the side effects I can have a
> chance of being ahead of the plane during the maneuver.
>
> Anyway, is there going to be any adverse yaw from turning in this
> mode? Even if there is, I don't think I can do anything about it,
> but enquiring minds want to know. The other question is if the
> attitude going to change as a side effect of the roll input. This
> will be in a 2-33.
>
> Thanks

Just roll toward the direction you want to turn. The steeper the bank
angle, the greater the turn rate. The nose will be high and outside
the turn compared with a non slipping turn.

Please do it with an instructor at altitude before you try it in the
pattern.


Andy

[Andreas Maurer]

On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:28:19 +0100, "Bert Willing"
> wrote:

>Funny thing this discussions. Slipping turns from base to final were part of
>my practical exam to get my license in Germany. Well that's now 20+ years
>ago, and we did that on Ka7, Ka8 and things like that.
>It is coordinated flight, by the way.

An approach without flaps by sideslip-only (including sideslip turn
from downwind to final) was also required during my instructor
examination. I did that in a G-103 Twin Astir, but I also saw the same
being done with an ASH-25.

Lots of fun, by the way. Nothing more thrilling than taking part in a
precision landing contest without even touching the flap lever... :)



Bye
Andreas

[Janos Bauer]

The main difference is when you stop the sideslip with these new
composite planes. Higher speed required to maintain safe sideslip
position but these planes has no same drag in normal glide position as a
KA7 has. So expect to run much longer:)

/Janos

Andreas Maurer wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:28:19 +0100, "Bert Willing"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Funny thing this discussions. Slipping turns from base to final were part of
>>my practical exam to get my license in Germany. Well that's now 20+ years
>>ago, and we did that on Ka7, Ka8 and things like that.
>>It is coordinated flight, by the way.
>
>
> An approach without flaps by sideslip-only (including sideslip turn
> from downwind to final) was also required during my instructor
> examination. I did that in a G-103 Twin Astir, but I also saw the same
> being done with an ASH-25.
>
> Lots of fun, by the way. Nothing more thrilling than taking part in a
> precision landing contest without even touching the flap lever... :)
>
>
>
> Bye
> Andreas

[ISoar]

On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 10:16:17 -0500, Todd Pattist
> wrote:

> A full slipping turn
>is perfectly safe and can be useful when your airbrakes are
>frozen shut or when you just want a steeper approach than
>normal.

I guess I should have made it clear that my need to know how to do
this was for the simulated case where the airbrakes are frozen shut.

Thanks for the tips.

[Andreas Maurer]

On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 16:21:14 +0100, Janos Bauer
> wrote:

>The main difference is when you stop the sideslip with these new
>composite planes. Higher speed required to maintain safe sideslip
>position but these planes has no same drag in normal glide position as a
>KA7 has. So expect to run much longer:)

This is the problematic point here. :)
It is possible to keep the sideslip even during the flare (to increase
drag), but the lower wing tip is very close to the ground then... not
a game for a beginner.

Frankly spoken, I have no idea how a "normal" pilot without lots of
sideslip experience is going to land a glass glider safely without the
use of aibrakes.


Bye
Andreas

[Tom Serkowski]

Pete Zeugma > wrote in message >...
> At 02:42 05 February 2004, Isoar wrote:
> >I can't find anything in my books about how to make
> >a 90 degree turn
> >(e.g., downwind to base) while in a full slip,
>
> Funny that, but then you should take a massive pinch
> of salt when you read posts about making you turns
> with the rudder. If you need to side slip at all during
> your downwind, base and final, best do it on the straight
> parts and use proper coordinated well banked turns
> between. The one thing you should always avoid getting
> into is turning with excessive amounts of rudder. Why?

It's a slip, NOT a skid. I'm not using excessive amounts of ruddre,
but just the opposite - essentially too little rudder to the extreme.

I most often do one of these when getting into a 2-33 after flying
glass with effective spoilers for a while.

When on base leg, I realize my normal pattern altitude is too high for
the little bit of sink the spoilers of the 2-33 provide. So as I turn
base to final, I apply rudder away from the direction of turn and lots
of aileron into the turn. Viola - a huge amount of altitude lost in
the turn and as I line up on final, the contols get 'normalized' again
and spoilers back to 2/3 or so for a normal flare and touchdown. I
usually get the angles figured out for the 2-33 after a couple flights
and the slip goes away, unless of course, I want to have some fun.
Like slipping down to the flare, flare aggressively, do a high AOA
touchdown (almost 2 point) and get stopped within 1-200' of touchdown
:)

I've even done this in my ASW-20B with full flaps and spoilers. Set
up a landing while a gust front os blowing about 50 knots down the
runway. So the pattern is high with a planned turn to final at 5-600'
AGL pretty much over the numbers. About half way down base leg, the
wind quits. Now I'm waaaay high. So I pull out full flaps, full
spoilers, and do the slipping turn. I slipped it all the way down to
about 50', and touched down almost exaclty where I'd planned when the
wind was still blowing.

Tom
ASH-26E

[Bill Daniels]

"Todd Pattist" > wrote in message
...
> ISoar > wrote:
>
> >I guess I should have made it clear that my need to know how to do
> >this was for the simulated case where the airbrakes are frozen shut.
>
> I knew that - it's the reason most instructors in the U.S.
> give for this exercise. Those outside the U.S. may not be
> familiar with the Schweizer dive brakes that lie flat
> against the wing surface, are hinged along one edge and tilt
> away from the wing into the airflow when actuated. The
> brakes sit in a small flat pocket on the wing surface that
> can collect moisture, which then freezes while aloft. The
> large plate-to-plate surface area between the brakes and the
> cavity they sit in allows the frozen water to get a good
> grip and prevent them from opening.
> Todd Pattist - "WH" Ventus C
> (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

On a metal glider, there is no reason that the spoilers can't be painted
black so the sun will heat them enough to unstick the ice. Anybody got a
story where a pilot was forced to land sans spoilers due to ice?

Bill Daniels

[Bert Willing]

Not even talking about aerobatic exams in a Lo100 :-)

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Andreas Maurer" > a écrit dans le message de
...
> On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:28:19 +0100, "Bert Willing"
> > wrote:
>
> >Funny thing this discussions. Slipping turns from base to final were part
of
> >my practical exam to get my license in Germany. Well that's now 20+ years
> >ago, and we did that on Ka7, Ka8 and things like that.
> >It is coordinated flight, by the way.
>
> An approach without flaps by sideslip-only (including sideslip turn
> from downwind to final) was also required during my instructor
> examination. I did that in a G-103 Twin Astir, but I also saw the same
> being done with an ASH-25.
>
> Lots of fun, by the way. Nothing more thrilling than taking part in a
> precision landing contest without even touching the flap lever... :)
>
>
>
> Bye
> Andreas

[Pete Zeugma]

At 15:18 05 February 2004, Todd Pattist wrote:
>If you are already in a full slip on base, you can
>turn by simply increasing the bank angle while continuing
>to
>hold full opposite rudder.

and there you were a little while ago saying that you
can slip turn with wings level with the rudder alone
just like in a boat!

>Todd Pattist - 'WH' Ventus C
>(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
>

[Andreas Maurer]

On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 18:13:39 +0100, "Bert Willing"
> wrote:

>Not even talking about aerobatic exams in a Lo100 :-)

Never mention glider aerobatics in my presence anymore... ;)


Bye
Andreas

[Walter Kronester]

Like in straight flight, you can turn in a slip with aileron and rudder.
But in most planes you will need full or nearly full rudder to keep
the plane slipping, so only the aileron is left to control a turn.
Use it as you would use it in straight flight.
You only can do rather wide turns.
I prefer to to slip with the nose pointing to the outside of the turn
(i.e. left for a right turn).

There is one PROBLEM:
The indicated airspeed is close to zero, so you can only control the
airspeed by observing the angle between your plane and the horizon.
You will need some training to do this for any specific type of plane,
especially in mountain areas, where the horizon image changes during turn.
So it is necessary to try first at high altitude and it with an instuctor.
Be shure that you are trained to do straight slips, and to recover from a
stall.
For a real landing, you should use it only if a normal landing with flaps is
not possible.

By the way it is big fun!
Walter

[Chris OCallaghan]

Mixed feelings about slips... can be very useful, but most instances
of need can be attended to before needed, as others in the thread have
pointed out.

Frozen airbrakes are one of these. If you intend to fly at altitude,
or anytime the temperature is below freezing, a layer of vaseline
between the mating surfaces will tyically prevent them freezing
together.

ISoar > wrote in message >...
> On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 10:16:17 -0500, Todd Pattist
> > wrote:
>
> > A full slipping turn
> >is perfectly safe and can be useful when your airbrakes are
> >frozen shut or when you just want a steeper approach than
> >normal.
>
> I guess I should have made it clear that my need to know how to do
> this was for the simulated case where the airbrakes are frozen shut.
>
> Thanks for the tips.

[JohnD]

ISoar > wrote in message >...
> I can't find anything in my books about how to make a 90 degree turn
> (e.g., downwind to base) while in a full slip, but maybe that's
> because it's so obvious. (Given my limited # hours, just because
> something seems obvious to me doesn't mean I'm not going to check it
> out.) I figure I'll turn with roll input, but can't picture the side
> effects from doing that. If I know the side effects I can have a
> chance of being ahead of the plane during the maneuver.
>
> Anyway, is there going to be any adverse yaw from turning in this
> mode? Even if there is, I don't think I can do anything about it,
> but enquiring minds want to know. The other question is if the
> attitude going to change as a side effect of the roll input. This
> will be in a 2-33.
>
> Thanks

As a qualifier: I am not an aeronautical expert or a CFI-G but just
someone who has a few hundred hours and less than 12 months on my
private glider ticket.

It is amazing to me that a student with anything more than ten or so
flights hasn't been exposed to, and trained how to perform slips and
slipping turns. This is not your deficiency but that of your CFI-G.
You do not indicate your experience level, but the fact you are flying
a 2-33 gives an indication you are fairly new and or inexperienced.

Ask your CFI, if he/she doesn't know, get a new one! My pre-solo
CFI's, all four of them at three different club/fbo's, each told me I
would have to demonstrate this skill before I would be approved to
solo.

Where I fly and where I took my fight test the designee REQUIRED a
demonstration of fully controlled slipping turns in the pattern.
Certainly good pattern control should normally prevent you from being
so high on a turn to final that you would require a full slip with
full spoilers (It can be fun though :^) ). But when flying out in the
western deserts (US and other continents I would imagine) you can and
will experience extrememe lift in the pattern (or you could just blow
it!)which especially in a 2-33 can require slips and spoilers to
counter.

What about this situation: You are on your fifth solo flight and OOOH
NOOO! your yaw string disintigrates while under tow. No, this never
happens does it? (Happened to me once: Club 1-26 with brand new canopy
& no yaw string. Damn it wasn't on my pre-flight checklist! How could
I have missed it?) But if it does what better way to fly the pattern
but to execute moderate slipping turns in the pattern while maintaing
proper airspeed? Wouldn't that be safer than having a 30 flight
student attempt to fly perfectly coordinated without a yaw string? Err
on the safe side?

Also, what about outlandings? This may not be a consideration for a
pre-solo student but isn't it something he/she should be building
their skills for now?
Short field, moderate to high wind, high obstruction on the downwind
end of the field. I have been taught that having skill at a full
spoiler slip may save your aircraft (and your life) in this situation.

O.K. guys & gals tell me where I am wrong here. I have also been
taught that when we stop learning whe should prepare to die, if we
already haven't.

P.S. Always remember: Proper pitch attitude control is imperative when
executing this maneuver as the IAS will almost certainly not be
correct.

[Mark James Boyd]

>ISoar >
>
>What about this situation: You are on your fifth solo flight and OOOH
>NOOO! your yaw string disintigrates while under tow. No, this never
>happens does it? (Happened to me once: Club 1-26 with brand new canopy
>& no yaw string. Damn it wasn't on my pre-flight checklist! How could
>I have missed it?) But if it does what better way to fly the pattern

Hmmm...yet another instrument with no required backup. Yaw string
outside, maybe a ball inside?

>P.S. Always remember: Proper pitch attitude control is imperative when
>executing this maneuver as the IAS will almost certainly not be
>correct.

Yet another instrument with no backup. (most) Airplanes have a
stall horn as the ASI backup. I'm still puzzled why gliders
don't have stall warning devices...

[Vaughn]

"JohnD" > wrote in message
om...
> ISoar > wrote in message
>...
>...
> What about this situation: You are on your fifth solo flight and OOOH
> NOOO! your yaw string disintigrates while under tow. No, this never
> happens does it? (Happened to me once: Club 1-26 with brand new canopy
> & no yaw string. Damn it wasn't on my pre-flight checklist! How could
> I have missed it?) But if it does what better way to fly the pattern
> but to execute moderate slipping turns in the pattern while maintaing
> proper airspeed? Wouldn't that be safer than having a 30 flight
> student attempt to fly perfectly coordinated without a yaw string? Err
> on the safe side?
> ...
> P.S. Always remember: Proper pitch attitude control is imperative when
> executing this maneuver as the IAS will almost certainly not be
> correct.

I should tell my early-solo students that a missing or stuck yaw string
is sufficient reason for them to make a non-standard pattern, make
deliberately uncoordinated and little-practiced turns near the ground, and
give up the advantage of a correctly functioning IAS? I don't think so!

In that situation, I might want my student to hold an extra 5 knots in
the pattern, and even if their asscheeks are not yet sufficiently calibrated
to produce a perfect turn, they should be able to mechanically coordinate
the controls enough to make a spin unlikely while simultaneously remaining
far enough above stall speed to make a spin impossible.

That said, a slip/skid indicator costs a whole $45.00 at Wings& Wheels
and there is no reason for any trainer to be without one.

Vaughn

[Chris OCallaghan]

Definitely a troll.

[Mark James Boyd]

Vaughn > wrote:
>
> That said, a slip/skid indicator costs a whole $45.00 at Wings& Wheels
>and there is no reason for any trainer to be without one.

I wonder if one can get an experimental version at
Orchard Supply for $2.35...

:P

[Bruce Hoult]

In article
>,
"Vaughn" > wrote:

> I should tell my early-solo students that a missing or stuck yaw string
> is sufficient reason for them to make a non-standard pattern, make
> deliberately uncoordinated and little-practiced turns near the ground, and
> give up the advantage of a correctly functioning IAS? I don't think so!

I once hired an ASK-21 (the one at Turf that crashed recently :-( ), and
on two flights I found after takeoff that the yaw string had got caught
by the front canopy and was inoperative.

It was unnerving at first, but didn't seem to make any difference to
being able to soar sucessfully.

-- Bruce

[Vaughn]

"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
news:40252ec1@darkstar...
> Vaughn > wrote:
> >
> > That said, a slip/skid indicator costs a whole $45.00 at Wings&
Wheels
> >and there is no reason for any trainer to be without one.
>
> I wonder if one can get an experimental version at
> Orchard Supply for $2.35...

I have seen bubble levels used, they work in the opposite direction
from a slip/skid (same as the yaw string), are excessively sensitive, but
the one I flew with seemed to agree with the yaw string.

Vaughn


>
> :P

[Mark James Boyd]

In article >,
Vaughn > wrote:
>
>"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
>news:40252ec1@darkstar...
>> Vaughn > wrote:
>> >
>> > That said, a slip/skid indicator costs a whole $45.00 at Wings&
>Wheels
>> >and there is no reason for any trainer to be without one.
>>
>> I wonder if one can get an experimental version at
>> Orchard Supply for $2.35...
>
> I have seen bubble levels used, they work in the opposite direction
>from a slip/skid (same as the yaw string), are excessively sensitive, but
>the one I flew with seemed to agree with the yaw string.
>
>Vaughn

www.aircraft-spruce.com $34.

but the real long, sensitive ones at store.wagaero.com
look about in this price range too, and a selection of 5...

[Vaughn]

"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
news:4025866c$1@darkstar...
>
> www.aircraft-spruce.com $34.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/ntoc.php?sec=in&cat=slipindicators $24.50

[Mark James Boyd]

In article >,
Vaughn > wrote:
>
>"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
>news:4025866c$1@darkstar...
>>
>> www.aircraft-spruce.com $34.
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/ntoc.php?sec=in&cat=slipindicators $24.50

Somewhere in these there is a 6" long indicator with
10 degrees incremented on either side! This sooms like pretty good
resolution! Experts only, of course, since for a poor
new student, this might really be a confidence breaker (jus' can't get
that thing the last 1/6th of a degree on) :P

[Bill Daniels]

"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
news:40265cde$1@darkstar...
> In article >,
> Vaughn > wrote:
> >
> >"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
> >news:4025866c$1@darkstar...
> >>
> >> www.aircraft-spruce.com $34.
> >
> > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/ntoc.php?sec=in&cat=slipindicators
$24.50
>
> Somewhere in these there is a 6" long indicator with
> 10 degrees incremented on either side! This sooms like pretty good
> resolution! Experts only, of course, since for a poor
> new student, this might really be a confidence breaker (jus' can't get
> that thing the last 1/6th of a degree on) :P
>

I have a 6" ball indicator and tried it in a glider. The result was that
the ball stayed perfectly in the center while the yaw string was all over
the place. Clearly, it's not sensitive enough.

Bill Daniels

[Eric Greenwell]

Chris OCallaghan wrote:
> Mixed feelings about slips... can be very useful, but most instances
> of need can be attended to before needed, as others in the thread have
> pointed out.
>
> Frozen airbrakes are one of these. If you intend to fly at altitude,
> or anytime the temperature is below freezing, a layer of vaseline
> between the mating surfaces will tyically prevent them freezing
> together.

The only time I had the spoilers freeze shut was when a light shower
came through just as I was preparing to tow. We waited until it passed,
then towed off. It turned into a wave flight, freezing the brakes shut,
which I discovered during the descent. They released in the warmer air
at about 4000' agl, so no problem.

Has anyone had the spoilers freeze shut without having rain first, and
without flying in cloud?
--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Atacdad]

My instructor had me do this the last time I was up. Actually, he told me
to hold the aircraft (2-33) high in the pattern so that I was at "800-1000'
abeam of the numbers", then set it down, he didn't say how...that was the
excercise for the student(me). There was a slight crosswind and a bit more
(landing)headwind as well. 3-5kts by 5-10kts at ground level. It was an
*interesting* ride. I went to full slip, full spoilers and extended the
downwind leg a bit, then 1/2 spoilers and less rudder to let the slip turn
to base (didn't know how much altitude I'd lose in the turn), held slip and
spoilers on base, 1/2 spoilers and less rudder to slip turn to final. The
crosswind was opposite the slip (left pattern, right to left x-wind on
final) so closed spoilers and converted from left slip to right slip (that
was the *interesting* part...never did that in a pattern before...can't let
the track wander) and laid on full spoilers, did a normal slip to
landing...yes I reduce spoilers on final just before flare...the 2-33 is a
barge and flares like one too. An indestructable barge, but a barge
nonetheless.

AT

"ISoar" > wrote in message
...
> I can't find anything in my books about how to make a 90 degree turn
> (e.g., downwind to base) while in a full slip, but maybe that's
> because it's so obvious. (Given my limited # hours, just because
> something seems obvious to me doesn't mean I'm not going to check it
> out.) I figure I'll turn with roll input, but can't picture the side
> effects from doing that. If I know the side effects I can have a
> chance of being ahead of the plane during the maneuver.
>
> Anyway, is there going to be any adverse yaw from turning in this
> mode? Even if there is, I don't think I can do anything about it,
> but enquiring minds want to know. The other question is if the
> attitude going to change as a side effect of the roll input. This
> will be in a 2-33.
>
> Thanks
>
>

[Vaughn]

"Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
...
> Chris OCallaghan wrote:
>
> Has anyone had the spoilers freeze shut without having rain first, and
> without flying in cloud?

No, but I have seen a case where one spoiler became disconnected
resulting in sudden asymmetric lift when they (it) were deployed in the
pattern. This is potentially a much more serious problem than than having
both spoilers fail to open. A good reason to test your spoilers early in
the approach and (naturally) in the preflight.

Vaughn

[Chris OCallaghan]

Most Flight Manuals recommend regular and repeated movement of the
controls in conditions where icing is possible. Opening and closing
the spoilers at intervals throughout the flight might not be a bad
idea in situations where freezing is a real possibililty. Again,
vaseline between the mating surfaces is a good preventative measure.
You'll want to clean and reapply for each flight to prevent it picking
up dirt.

"Vaughn" > wrote in message >...
> "Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Chris OCallaghan wrote:
> >
> > Has anyone had the spoilers freeze shut without having rain first, and
> > without flying in cloud?
>
> No, but I have seen a case where one spoiler became disconnected
> resulting in sudden asymmetric lift when they (it) were deployed in the
> pattern. This is potentially a much more serious problem than than having
> both spoilers fail to open. A good reason to test your spoilers early in
> the approach and (naturally) in the preflight.
>
> Vaughn

[JohnD]

Vaughn" > wrote in message >...
> "JohnD" > wrote in message
> om...
> > ISoar > wrote in message
> >...
> >...
> > What about this situation: You are on your fifth solo flight and OOOH
> > NOOO! your yaw string disintigrates while under tow. No, this never
> > happens does it? (Happened to me once: Club 1-26 with brand new canopy
> > & no yaw string. Damn it wasn't on my pre-flight checklist! How could
> > I have missed it?) But if it does what better way to fly the pattern
> > but to execute moderate slipping turns in the pattern while maintaing
> > proper airspeed? Wouldn't that be safer than having a 30 flight
> > student attempt to fly perfectly coordinated without a yaw string? Err
> > on the safe side?
> > ...
> > P.S. Always remember: Proper pitch attitude control is imperative when
> > executing this maneuver as the IAS will almost certainly not be
> > correct.
>
> I should tell my early-solo students that a missing or stuck yaw string
> is sufficient reason for them to make a non-standard pattern, make
> deliberately uncoordinated and little-practiced turns near the ground, and
> give up the advantage of a correctly functioning IAS? I don't think so!
>
> In that situation, I might want my student to hold an extra 5 knots in
> the pattern, and even if their asscheeks are not yet sufficiently calibrated
> to produce a perfect turn, they should be able to mechanically coordinate
> the controls enough to make a spin unlikely while simultaneously remaining
> far enough above stall speed to make a spin impossible.
>
> That said, a slip/skid indicator costs a whole $45.00 at Wings& Wheels
> and there is no reason for any trainer to be without one.
>
> Vaughn

I'm sorry, but I believe you missed my point. What I am saying is that
I have been taught that early-solo students should know how to
properly execute and know when to utilize a slip and slipping turns
BEFORE they solo. First, I did not say anything about flying a
non-standard pattern. They wouldn't be flying a 'non-standard' pattern
if they had been taught the skill in the first place and they wouldn't
be 'little practiced' if you had them practice and develop the skill.
Yes, 'deliberately uncoordinated' slipping turns are a required skill
by CFI's here and by the FAA designee. "During the landing portion of
this flight I want you to demonstrate at least one slipping turn and a
slip while controlling your heading."

[Vaughn]

"JohnD" > wrote in message
om...
> > > What about this situation: You are on your fifth solo flight and OOOH
> > > NOOO! your yaw string disintigrates while under tow. No, this never
> > > happens does it? (Happened to me once: Club 1-26 with brand new canopy
> > > & no yaw string. Damn it wasn't on my pre-flight checklist! How could
> > > I have missed it?) But if it does what better way to fly the pattern
> > > but to execute moderate slipping turns in the pattern while maintaing
> > > proper airspeed? Wouldn't that be safer than having a 30 flight
> > > student attempt to fly perfectly coordinated without a yaw string? Err
> > > on the safe side?
> > > ...
> > > P.S. Always remember: Proper pitch attitude control is imperative when
> > > executing this maneuver as the IAS will almost certainly not be
> > > correct.
> >
> > I should tell my early-solo students that a missing or stuck yaw
string
> > is sufficient reason for them to make a non-standard pattern, make
> > deliberately uncoordinated and little-practiced turns near the ground,
and
> > give up the advantage of a correctly functioning IAS? I don't think so!
> >
> > In that situation, I might want my student to hold an extra 5 knots
in
> > the pattern, and even if their asscheeks are not yet sufficiently
calibrated
> > to produce a perfect turn, they should be able to mechanically
coordinate
> > the controls enough to make a spin unlikely while simultaneously
remaining
> > far enough above stall speed to make a spin impossible.
> >
> > That said, a slip/skid indicator costs a whole $45.00 at Wings&
Wheels
> > and there is no reason for any trainer to be without one.
> >
> > Vaughn
>
> I'm sorry, but I believe you missed my point.

Perhaps you missed mine. I don't think that a missing or stuck yaw
string is sufficient reason for an early solo student (or anyone else that I
can imagine right now) to fly a slipping approach. If I am wrong please
educate me.

>What I am saying is that
> I have been taught that early-solo students should know how to
> properly execute and know when to utilize a slip and slipping turns
> BEFORE they solo.

Actually, 61.87(i) tells us what flight training a student pilot must
receive prior to solo and the only guidance we have there regarding slips is
the variously-interpreted phrase "slips to a landing", there is no specific
requirement for slipping turns. I realize that 61.87 represents an
absolute minimum and we should add things to the mix that we find important.

Vaughn

[JohnD]

"Vaughn" > wrote in message >...
> "JohnD" > wrote in message
> om...
> > > > What about this situation: You are on your fifth solo flight and OOOH
> > > > NOOO! your yaw string disintigrates while under tow. No, this never
> > > > happens does it? (Happened to me once: Club 1-26 with brand new canopy
> > > > & no yaw string. Damn it wasn't on my pre-flight checklist! How could
> > > > I have missed it?) But if it does what better way to fly the pattern
> > > > but to execute moderate slipping turns in the pattern while maintaing
> > > > proper airspeed? Wouldn't that be safer than having a 30 flight
> > > > student attempt to fly perfectly coordinated without a yaw string? Err
> > > > on the safe side?
> > > > ...
> > > > P.S. Always remember: Proper pitch attitude control is imperative when
> > > > executing this maneuver as the IAS will almost certainly not be
> > > > correct.
> > >
> > > I should tell my early-solo students that a missing or stuck yaw
> string
> > > is sufficient reason for them to make a non-standard pattern, make
> > > deliberately uncoordinated and little-practiced turns near the ground,
> and
> > > give up the advantage of a correctly functioning IAS? I don't think so!
> > >
> > > In that situation, I might want my student to hold an extra 5 knots
> in
> > > the pattern, and even if their asscheeks are not yet sufficiently
> calibrated
> > > to produce a perfect turn, they should be able to mechanically
> coordinate
> > > the controls enough to make a spin unlikely while simultaneously
> remaining
> > > far enough above stall speed to make a spin impossible.
> > >
> > > That said, a slip/skid indicator costs a whole $45.00 at Wings&
> Wheels
> > > and there is no reason for any trainer to be without one.
> > >
> > > Vaughn
> >
> > I'm sorry, but I believe you missed my point.
>
> Perhaps you missed mine. I don't think that a missing or stuck yaw
> string is sufficient reason for an early solo student (or anyone else that I
> can imagine right now) to fly a slipping approach. If I am wrong please
> educate me.
>
> >What I am saying is that
> > I have been taught that early-solo students should know how to
> > properly execute and know when to utilize a slip and slipping turns
> > BEFORE they solo.
>
> Actually, 61.87(i) tells us what flight training a student pilot must
> receive prior to solo and the only guidance we have there regarding slips is
> the variously-interpreted phrase "slips to a landing", there is no specific
> requirement for slipping turns. I realize that 61.87 represents an
> absolute minimum and we should add things to the mix that we find important.
>
> Vaughn

O.K. I'm really not trying to argue here so perhaps we could get away
from the yawstring example and you could help me understand why you
believe 'an early solo student (or anyone else....' should not know
how to execute and be skilled at a 'slipping approach'.

It would appear to me that other CFI's and FAA examiners believe the
"slips to landing" phrase in 61.87(i) means they should teach and
expect to see competancy in this maneuver. So why is your approach so
different from theirs? Shouldn't we be standardized in this? If not in
our training then certainly in what an FAA examiner expects from a
pilot? What about the poor guy who trains and obtains his license in
your area, moves out here, then flunks his BFR because the standard
and expectations are so different? (I realize I may be exaggerating
this a bit but you see what I mean don't you?)

More importantly how does the downside of knowing how to execute a
'slipping approach' outweigh the benefits of being able to utilize
this skill when the situation warrants?

JohnD

[Vaughn Simon]

"JohnD" > wrote in message
om...
>
> O.K. I'm really not trying to argue here.

Neither am I, this would best be done over a friendly beer.

> so perhaps we could get away
> from the yawstring example and you could help me understand why you
> believe 'an early solo student (or anyone else....' should not know
> how to execute and be skilled at a 'slipping approach'.

You are "putting words in my keyboard", I wrote no such thing as what
you have above. I was addressing your yawstring example speciifically, and
I wrote that (within my present knowledge and experience) a missing or
broken yawstring is not a reason to make a slipping pattern.


>It would appear to me that other CFI's and FAA examiners believe the
> "slips to landing" phrase in 61.87(i) means they should teach and
> expect to see competancy in this maneuver. So why is your approach so
> different from theirs?

Where did I say it is?

Vaughn

[JohnD]

"Vaughn Simon" > wrote in message >...
> "JohnD" > wrote in message
> om...
> >
> > O.K. I'm really not trying to argue here.
>
> Neither am I, this would best be done over a friendly beer.
>
> > so perhaps we could get away
> > from the yawstring example and you could help me understand why you
> > believe 'an early solo student (or anyone else....' should not know
> > how to execute and be skilled at a 'slipping approach'.
>
> You are "putting words in my keyboard", I wrote no such thing as what
> you have above. I was addressing your yawstring example speciifically, and
> I wrote that (within my present knowledge and experience) a missing or
> broken yawstring is not a reason to make a slipping pattern.

>
>
> >It would appear to me that other CFI's and FAA examiners believe the
> > "slips to landing" phrase in 61.87(i) means they should teach and
> > expect to see competancy in this maneuver. So why is your approach so
> > different from theirs?
>
> Where did I say it is?

'Round and round we go.'
As I read this I can see that you certainly didn't say that exactly,
in fact you have really said nothing except dispute my poor example.
Good job. Thanks for correcting me. Do you actually have an opinion on
the subject?

Have a nice day.

[Paul Kaye]

As a bit of light relief to this e-mail tennis, I thought
I'd add an 'interesting' idea that did the rounds in
the UK a few years ago. Basically, the BGA instructors'
committee (or the national coach, can't remember exactly
now) suggested that if you were high on finals, pulling
full brake/spoiler and diving at the ground would burn
off more energy than other options. We had great fun
trying this out one weekend until our CFI decided his
aircraft were in mortal danger and stopped the experiment.

Happy days!

Paul

At 18:30 12 February 2004, Johnd wrote:
>'Vaughn Simon' wrote in message news:...
>> 'JohnD' wrote in message
>> om...
>> >
>> > O.K. I'm really not trying to argue here.
>>
>> Neither am I, this would best be done over a
>>friendly beer.
>>
>> > so perhaps we could get away
>> > from the yawstring example and you could help me
>>>understand why you
>> > believe 'an early solo student (or anyone else....'
>>>should not know
>> > how to execute and be skilled at a 'slipping approach'.
>>
>> You are 'putting words in my keyboard', I wrote
>>no such thing as what
>> you have above. I was addressing your yawstring example
>>speciifically, and
>> I wrote that (within my present knowledge and experience)
>>a missing or
>> broken yawstring is not a reason to make a slipping
>>pattern.
>
>>
>>
>> >It would appear to me that other CFI's and FAA examiners
>>>believe the
>> > 'slips to landing' phrase in 61.87(i) means they
>>>should teach and
>> > expect to see competancy in this maneuver. So why
>>>is your approach so
>> > different from theirs?
>>
>> Where did I say it is?
>
>'Round and round we go.'
>As I read this I can see that you certainly didn't
>say that exactly,
>in fact you have really said nothing except dispute
>my poor example.
>Good job. Thanks for correcting me. Do you actually
>have an opinion on
>the subject?
>
>Have a nice day.
>

[Eric Greenwell]

Paul Kaye wrote:

> As a bit of light relief to this e-mail tennis, I thought
> I'd add an 'interesting' idea that did the rounds in
> the UK a few years ago. Basically, the BGA instructors'
> committee (or the national coach, can't remember exactly
> now) suggested that if you were high on finals, pulling
> full brake/spoiler and diving at the ground would burn
> off more energy than other options. We had great fun
> trying this out one weekend until our CFI decided his
> aircraft were in mortal danger and stopped the experiment.

I find the technique quite useful in gliders with good but not extremely
powerful airbrakes (don't need to use it in the Blanik!), but it does
work better if you turn base to final with plenty of height. I prefer
that, so I don't use airbrakes or slipping turns in the pattern (except
for the rare "expedited" arrival) until I've turned onto final. Making
turns 600-800 feet off the ground has always seemed safer than 300 feet.

I'm told it is an EXTEMELY effective method in gliders with trailing
edge divebrakes.
--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Derrick Steed]

As a bit of light relief to this e-mail tennis, I thought
I'd add an 'interesting' idea that did the rounds in
the UK a few years ago. Basically, the BGA instructors'
committee (or the national coach, can't remember exactly
now) suggested that if you were high on finals, pulling
full brake/spoiler and diving at the ground would burn
off more energy than other options. We had great fun
trying this out one weekend until our CFI decided his
aircraft were in mortal danger and stopped the experiment.

Happy days!

Paul

Nice analogy Paul - do you play doubles?

As I recall it was the CFI who initiated it and I believe the correct
procedure was to reduce speed to min sink, then deploy full air brake, then
initiate a dive attempting to reach 60knots. The national coach at the time,
lovely man, card player, suggested its use as a means of landing straight
ahead from a failed which launch. I recall there was another game we played
involved a life expired 'chute - he initiated that one too, as I recall.

Rgds,

Derrick.

[Fredrik Thörnell]

Derrick Steed > skrev den 13 Feb
2004 08:12:31 GMT:

> As a bit of light relief to this e-mail tennis, I thought
> I'd add an 'interesting' idea that did the rounds in
> the UK a few years ago. Basically, the BGA instructors'
> committee (or the national coach, can't remember exactly
> now) suggested that if you were high on finals, pulling
> full brake/spoiler and diving at the ground would burn
> off more energy than other options. We had great fun
> trying this out one weekend until our CFI decided his
> aircraft were in mortal danger and stopped the experiment.

Er, that is indeed the way to do it. Every bit of drag possible and Vne is
the quickest way to loose all that excess energy associated with too high
altitude. You might not want to take it down to ground effect though, for
several reasons. :)

Not dangerous at all. Just keep ahead of the aircraft, but that applies
all the time.

Cheers,
Fred