Cross-Country Definition (USA)

[Michael Stringfellow]

In filling out my FAA form for my USA pilot's certificate, I note that they
have spaces for not only total hours and number of flights but also
cross-country flight time. The only problem is that the Federal Aviation
Regulations (FARs) do not appear to define cross-country flying as it
applies to gliders. Local FAA gurus were unable to offer any other
definition than the one applicable to airplanes, which requires a landing at
a remote airfield.

Can any other US pilots throw light on this?

It might also be interesting to hear from Europeans what their official
definitions are.

Mike

ASW 20 WA

[JC]

"Michael Stringfellow" > wrote:

>In filling out my FAA form for my USA pilot's certificate, I note that they
>have spaces for not only total hours and number of flights but also
>cross-country flight time. The only problem is that the Federal Aviation
>Regulations (FARs) do not appear to define cross-country flying as it
>applies to gliders. Local FAA gurus were unable to offer any other
>definition than the one applicable to airplanes, which requires a landing at
>a remote airfield.
>
>Can any other US pilots throw light on this?
>
>It might also be interesting to hear from Europeans what their official
>definitions are.
>
>Mike
>
>ASW 20 WA
>

Where I trained they said you were on a cross country whenever you
needed more altitude than you had to get back to your home field.

[David Martin]

Not sure what the "official" designation is; however, I think a
generally accepted definition of cross country would be any flight
that takes you beyond gliding distance of the home field. This would
apply wether you return to the home field or not. My 2 cents worth.

David Martin
ASW27 BV

[soarski]

"Michael Stringfellow" > wrote in message news:<kQuUb.15985$EW.8868@okepread02>...
> In filling out my FAA form for my USA pilot's certificate, I note that they
> have spaces for not only total hours and number of flights but also
> cross-country flight time. The only problem is that the Federal Aviation
> Regulations (FARs) do not appear to define cross-country flying as it
> applies to gliders. Local FAA gurus were unable to offer any other
> definition than the one applicable to airplanes, which requires a landing at
> a remote airfield.
>
> Can any other US pilots throw light on this?
>
> It might also be interesting to hear from Europeans what their official
> definitions are.
>
> Mike
>
> ASW 20 WA

If you read the FARs, under aeronautical experience, for powered
flight, you will see some requirements for, I am looking it up for you
right now: 3 hrs of cros country flight training in a sgl engine
aircraft.;3 hrs of nightflight training in airplanes including one of
over 100 miles distance.....There they are spelling it out for you
Fly 100nm. Then they want 5 hrs solo X-Country, of wich one flight has
to be at least 150 mi long etc. The FAA did not always specify.....to
be done in an sgl engine airplane, 20 years ago you could count your
Glider X-Country towards your power license. If it was long enough!
Still, the FAA specifies the above and a couple of other hrs to be
flown in an airplane , which means, that about 25 hrs of glider time
can be applied towards the needed time of still only 40 hrs for the
private license airplane.

Read FAR 61.109 my book is the 2001 issue! Not sure whether I
answered your question. How does the FAA define X-Country different
between gliders and airplanes??

Dieter Bellanca Viking

[BTIZ]

FAR 61.1(b)(3)(ii)(B), for the purpose of meeting aeronautical experience
requirements, "that includes a point of landing that was at least a
straight line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original
point of departure."

Another section of the FARs pt 61 tell you that a student pilot is "cross
country" if more than 25nm from his home airport, but that does not count as
x-c time, he just needs "special permission" to be more than 25nm away.

So, 50nm is the rule, you can log x-c if you take off and land 5nm away...
but you can't "count" it to meet a requirement towards additional ratings
unless the landing is more than 50nm away.. and that means a landing, can't
just circle the point (airport or flag pole) and return without landing. It
will not count for meeting rating qualification requirements.

BT

"soarski" > wrote in message
om...
> "Michael Stringfellow" > wrote in message
news:<kQuUb.15985$EW.8868@okepread02>...
> > In filling out my FAA form for my USA pilot's certificate, I note that
they
> > have spaces for not only total hours and number of flights but also
> > cross-country flight time. The only problem is that the Federal
Aviation
> > Regulations (FARs) do not appear to define cross-country flying as it
> > applies to gliders. Local FAA gurus were unable to offer any other
> > definition than the one applicable to airplanes, which requires a
landing at
> > a remote airfield.
> >
> > Can any other US pilots throw light on this?
> >
> > It might also be interesting to hear from Europeans what their official
> > definitions are.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > ASW 20 WA
>
> If you read the FARs, under aeronautical experience, for powered
> flight, you will see some requirements for, I am looking it up for you
> right now: 3 hrs of cros country flight training in a sgl engine
> aircraft.;3 hrs of nightflight training in airplanes including one of
> over 100 miles distance.....There they are spelling it out for you
> Fly 100nm. Then they want 5 hrs solo X-Country, of wich one flight has
> to be at least 150 mi long etc. The FAA did not always specify.....to
> be done in an sgl engine airplane, 20 years ago you could count your
> Glider X-Country towards your power license. If it was long enough!
> Still, the FAA specifies the above and a couple of other hrs to be
> flown in an airplane , which means, that about 25 hrs of glider time
> can be applied towards the needed time of still only 40 hrs for the
> private license airplane.
>
> Read FAR 61.109 my book is the 2001 issue! Not sure whether I
> answered your question. How does the FAA define X-Country different
> between gliders and airplanes??
>
> Dieter Bellanca Viking

[Judy Ruprecht]

At 02:30 06 February 2004, Btiz referenced:
>FAR 61.1(b)(3)(ii)(B), for the purpose of meeting aeronautical
>experience
>requirements...

Uhm... the cited FAR paragraph actually refers to a
cross country definition in the context of 'experience
requirements' established for private, commercial or
instrument pilot certification in aircraft other than
rotorcraft... and there are no cross country requirements
established for any level of glider pilot certification.

The Part 61 FAQ is mute on this topic, but I believe
61.1(b)(3)(i) is the applicable paragraph and it defines
'Cross country time' as 'time acquired during a flight...

- conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate
- conducted in an aircraft
- that includes a landing at a point other than the
airport of departure; and
- that involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage,
electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation
systems to navigate to the landing point.'

Thus, FAR-wise, a land-out a few miles away from home
may involve 'cross country time' in a glider but a
successful closed course glider flight of several hundred
miles does not appear to be cross country flight time
at all!

Your insurance company probably has other ideas...

Judy

[tango4]

So by your definition you can do a 1000km triangle flight without going
cross country. Just so long as you land back at the take-off airfield.

Out of gliding range of the airfield is usually the common sense definition
of cross country. I'd qualify that with - If you have to navigate to get
home ( ie: read a map or GPS, negotiate airspace ).

Ian

[BTIZ]

> So by your definition you can do a 1000km triangle flight without going
> cross country. Just so long as you land back at the take-off airfield.

No... It's not my definition... it is the FAR...

Any student is X-C if more than 25nm from home. But he can't log that 25 or
20nm trip as X-C time towards his rating.. he needs to be at least 50nm and
LAND OUT.

for the "PURPOSE OF LOGGING REQUIRED CROSS COUNTRY TIME TOWARDS AN
ADDITIONAL RATING.

And to COUNT time for ADDITIONAL ratings as cross country.. you have to LAND
OUT.

YOU can LOG anything you want to.. a 5nm out and back as X-C if you so
desire. You just count it towards any X-C requirement for an additional
rating.

Luckily for gliders X-C time is not a requirement.. but it is for AIRPLANE,
and you'll find that the FAR also requires said LOGGED X-C time towards the
Airplane Pvt and Commercial Ratings to be LOGGED in an AIRPLANE. Not a
glider.

So... for COUNTING purposes, you need at least 50nm and a land out to count
it towards any requirement for additional ratings.

BTW, this is US FAR rules...

BT

[BTIZ]

so true Judy...
BT

"Judy Ruprecht" > wrote in message
...
> At 02:30 06 February 2004, Btiz referenced:
> >FAR 61.1(b)(3)(ii)(B), for the purpose of meeting aeronautical
> >experience
> >requirements...
>
> Uhm... the cited FAR paragraph actually refers to a
> cross country definition in the context of 'experience
> requirements' established for private, commercial or
> instrument pilot certification in aircraft other than
> rotorcraft... and there are no cross country requirements
> established for any level of glider pilot certification.
>
> The Part 61 FAQ is mute on this topic, but I believe
> 61.1(b)(3)(i) is the applicable paragraph and it defines
> 'Cross country time' as 'time acquired during a flight...
>
> - conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate
> - conducted in an aircraft
> - that includes a landing at a point other than the
> airport of departure; and
> - that involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage,
> electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation
> systems to navigate to the landing point.'
>
> Thus, FAR-wise, a land-out a few miles away from home
> may involve 'cross country time' in a glider but a
> successful closed course glider flight of several hundred
> miles does not appear to be cross country flight time
> at all!
>
> Your insurance company probably has other ideas...
>
> Judy
>
>

[Dave Nadler YO]

Easy - Start in LA, land at Kitty Hawk.
Count time enroute, excluding the driving ;-)
Best Regards from the SSA convention, Dave "YO"

"Michael Stringfellow" > wrote in message news:<kQuUb.15985$EW.8868@okepread02>...
> In filling out my FAA form for my USA pilot's certificate, I note that they
> have spaces for not only total hours and number of flights but also
> cross-country flight time. The only problem is that the Federal Aviation
> Regulations (FARs) do not appear to define cross-country flying as it
> applies to gliders. Local FAA gurus were unable to offer any other
> definition than the one applicable to airplanes, which requires a landing at
> a remote airfield.
>
> Can any other US pilots throw light on this?
>
> It might also be interesting to hear from Europeans what their official
> definitions are.
>
> Mike
>
> ASW 20 WA

[Michael Stringfellow]

As I expected, Judy hit the nail on the head. For FAA purposes, to log XC
time, a landout at a remote airfield is required.

The accepted definition in the soaring community is any flight out of
gliding range of the home field. I certainly know when I'm cross-country
when all I can see is rocks and cactus. Under this definition, I have about
600 hours, but under the FAAs I can only count my handful of landouts and
one where I flew from another site back home.

I still wonder whether bodies like the BGA or FAI have a written definition.

Mike

ASW 20 WA

[Mark James Boyd]

In article >,
Judy Ruprecht > wrote:
>At 02:30 06 February 2004, Btiz referenced:
>>FAR 61.1(b)(3)(ii)(B), for the purpose of meeting aeronautical
>>experience
>>requirements...
>
>Uhm... the cited FAR paragraph actually refers to a
>cross country definition in the context of 'experience
>requirements' established for private, commercial or
>instrument pilot certification in aircraft other than
>rotorcraft... and there are no cross country requirements
>established for any level of glider pilot certification.
>
>The Part 61 FAQ is mute on this topic, but I believe
>61.1(b)(3)(i) is the applicable paragraph and it defines
>'Cross country time' as 'time acquired during a flight...
>
>- conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate
>- conducted in an aircraft
>- that includes a landing at a point other than the
>airport of departure; and
>- that involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage,
>electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation
>systems to navigate to the landing point.'
>
>Thus, FAR-wise, a land-out a few miles away from home
>may involve 'cross country time' in a glider but a
>successful closed course glider flight of several hundred
>miles does not appear to be cross country flight time
>at all!
>
>Your insurance company probably has other ideas...
>
>Judy
>
>

It's interesting, however, that the (iv) section requirements for
ATP do not require a landing. I don't see why glider
flights over 50nm with no distant landing can't be used
towards the ATP. In my experience the ATP examiners
don't seem to care if the X-C time was in a MEL, SEL or helicopter,
so I don't see why they'd poo-poo glider X-C...

[Mark James Boyd]

In article <2YOUb.16245$EW.6421@okepread02>,
Michael Stringfellow > wrote:
>As I expected, Judy hit the nail on the head. For FAA purposes, to log XC
>time, a landout at a remote airfield is required.
>
>The accepted definition in the soaring community is any flight out of
>gliding range of the home field. I certainly know when I'm cross-country
>when all I can see is rocks and cactus. Under this definition, I have about
>600 hours, but under the FAAs I can only count my handful of landouts and
>one where I flew from another site back home.
>
>I still wonder whether bodies like the BGA or FAI have a written definition.
>
>Mike
>
>ASW 20 WA
>
>

Michael,

If they ever make a glider ATP rating, man, YOU'RE THERE!!! :)

[Andy Durbin]

Judy Ruprecht > wrote in message news:<bvv7p1


>but a
> successful closed course glider flight of several hundred
> miles does not appear to be cross country flight time
> at all!
>


It counts as qualifying cross country time for the ATP rating. ATP
cross country time does not require a landing at the remote point.

(iv) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience
requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a
rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight --

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical
miles from the original point of departure; and

(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic
navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.

I asked AFS 600 what was meant by appropriate aircraft, and what were
inappropriate aircraft. I was told they had no idea what para (A)
meant since there were no inappropriate aircraft and yes, gliders
qualified.

BTW I was able use 25 hours of glider cross country (flights where I
landed more than 50nm from origin) toward the experience required for
airplane commercial. Those landout flight finally got some credit and
saved me 25 expensive hours in airplanes.


Andy

[soarski]

"Michael Stringfellow" > wrote in message news:<2YOUb.16245$EW.6421@okepread02>...
> As I expected, Judy hit the nail on the head. For FAA purposes, to log XC
> time, a landout at a remote airfield is required.
>
> The accepted definition in the soaring community is any flight out of
> gliding range of the home field. I certainly know when I'm cross-country
> when all I can see is rocks and cactus. Under this definition, I have about
> 600 hours, but under the FAAs I can only count my handful of landouts and
> one where I flew from another site back home.
>
> I still wonder whether bodies like the BGA or FAI have a written definition.
>
> Mike
>
> ASW 20 WA

It's academical! Like we told you, no X-Country flights required for
the US Glider license. They do not care yet, even though you could
take a Stemme with a glider license for 600 mi nonstop. You can write
your miles into that form, who cares, but you could also write "NA". I
assumed you were upgrading to an airplane license, "powered" They
probably use the same form? Getting into power, they know what they
want. AND not a landout but landing at a tower controled airport
preferably.

On the other hand, the BGA and FAI know exactly what they want, and
you can prove it with your logger.

DB

[BTIZ]

> BTW I was able use 25 hours of glider cross country (flights where I
> landed more than 50nm from origin) toward the experience required for
> airplane commercial. Those landout flight finally got some credit and
> saved me 25 expensive hours in airplanes.
>
>
> Andy

very good Andy... landing out does have it's advantages.. as long as it's
more than 50nm away..

For the rest of you.. Commmerical airplane rating requires 50hours of Cross
country.. of which only 10 hours has to be in an airplane.

BT

[Michael Stringfellow]

I disagree that it's purely academic. Firstly, a student glider pilot may
not fly cross county or more than 25 miles from the home field without an
endorsement from the instructor. You therefore need to know what
cross-country flight is if you are not going to do it!

Second, there is a specific space on the FAA 8710 application form for you
to fill in "glider cross-country hours". I assume that if the FAA is asking
for the information, they have some use for it, even if none is required for
a glider license.

Third, many of the cross-country requirements for other certificates or
ratings specify that they should be done in an aircraft - not airplane.
Last time I looked, gliders were still defined as aircraft and cross-country
time logged in gliders in accordance with the appropriate FAR can be used.
Since gliders are cheaper to operate than airplanes, you can save some money
when getting another rating.

Some other contributors to this thread have made the point very well.

Mike

ASW 20 WA



"soarski" > wrote in message
om...
> "Michael Stringfellow" > wrote in message
news:<2YOUb.16245$EW.6421@okepread02>...
> > As I expected, Judy hit the nail on the head. For FAA purposes, to log
XC
> > time, a landout at a remote airfield is required.
> >
> > The accepted definition in the soaring community is any flight out of
> > gliding range of the home field. I certainly know when I'm
cross-country
> > when all I can see is rocks and cactus. Under this definition, I have
about
> > 600 hours, but under the FAAs I can only count my handful of landouts
and
> > one where I flew from another site back home.
> >
> > I still wonder whether bodies like the BGA or FAI have a written
definition.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > ASW 20 WA
>
> It's academical! Like we told you, no X-Country flights required for
> the US Glider license. They do not care yet, even though you could
> take a Stemme with a glider license for 600 mi nonstop. You can write
> your miles into that form, who cares, but you could also write "NA". I
> assumed you were upgrading to an airplane license, "powered" They
> probably use the same form? Getting into power, they know what they
> want. AND not a landout but landing at a tower controled airport
> preferably.
>
> On the other hand, the BGA and FAI know exactly what they want, and
> you can prove it with your logger.
>
> DB