FAR Question

[Chuck]

First off, I am an A&P, but not a pilot.

I have a relative that has a glider and needs to put "wing wheels" on his
glider. He said that they want some pretty decent money for them.

I have a friend that is an excellent machinist and I was thinking of getting
them together and see if he can make some wheels for him.

I don't know how the reg's work with gliders. Does he need to have an STC to
do this?

Is there an reason why this shouldn't be done?

Thanks...

Chuck


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.576 / Virus Database: 365 - Release Date: 1/30/04

[Bill Daniels]

What glider? Standard certificate or Experimental?

It it's a Schweizer, the wing wheels bear an absolutely uncanny resemblance
to a hockey puck with a 3/8" hole in the middle. Of course, you may also
need the spring arm that supports them.

If it's experimental, in-line skate wheels work great.

>
> Is there an reason why this shouldn't be done?

Yeah, tell your friend to stop dragging the wing tips.

Bill Daniels

"Chuck" > wrote in message
link.net...
> First off, I am an A&P, but not a pilot.
>
> I have a relative that has a glider and needs to put "wing wheels" on his
> glider. He said that they want some pretty decent money for them.
>
> I have a friend that is an excellent machinist and I was thinking of
getting
> them together and see if he can make some wheels for him.
>
> I don't know how the reg's work with gliders. Does he need to have an STC
to
> do this?
>
> Is there an reason why this shouldn't be done?
>
> Thanks...
>
> Chuck
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.576 / Virus Database: 365 - Release Date: 1/30/04
>
>

[Bob Kuykendall]

At 21:24 06 February 2004, Chuck wrote:

> I don't know how the reg's work with gliders.
> Does he need to have an STC to
> do this?

In general:

The majority of gliders operate under the same FARs
as small airplanes. The way I understand it, an STC
and/or 337 paperwork is only required if the glider
holds type certification and a standard airworthiness
certificate, and then only if it is determined that
the addition constitutes a major modification.

If the glider holds Experimental certification (either
Racing, Exhibition, or Amateur-Built) and a Special
Airworthiness Certificate, probably all that is required
is a logbook entry by the installer. For Experimentals,
the operating limitations that accompany the airworthiness
certificate will probably have specific instructions
about modifications.

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com

[Chuck]

Sorry, it is a Schweizer 1 36, which I assume would have a standard
certificate. He hasn't flown it yet, so he isn't dragging...yet...


"Bill Daniels" > wrote in message
...
> What glider? Standard certificate or Experimental?
>
> It it's a Schweizer, the wing wheels bear an absolutely uncanny
resemblance
> to a hockey puck with a 3/8" hole in the middle. Of course, you may also
> need the spring arm that supports them.
>
> If it's experimental, in-line skate wheels work great.
>
> >
> > Is there an reason why this shouldn't be done?
>
> Yeah, tell your friend to stop dragging the wing tips.
>
> Bill Daniels
>



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.576 / Virus Database: 365 - Release Date: 1/30/04

[Jim Phoenix]

"Chuck" > wrote in message .net>...
> Sorry, it is a Schweizer 1 36, which I assume would have a standard
> certificate. He hasn't flown it yet, so he isn't dragging...yet...
>

It appears the 1-36 has wing tip wheel assemblies that are approved as
part of its type design. (Ref. photo page 201 in the book Sailplanes
by Schweizer) I'm sure they are expensive if bought from Schweizer.
They have Standard Airworthiness Certificates.

Jim

[Chuck]

But my question is, if we want to make our own instead of buying them, do we
need to get an STC?



"Jim Phoenix" > wrote in message
om...
> "Chuck" > wrote in message
.net>...
> > Sorry, it is a Schweizer 1 36, which I assume would have a standard
> > certificate. He hasn't flown it yet, so he isn't dragging...yet...
> >
>
> It appears the 1-36 has wing tip wheel assemblies that are approved as
> part of its type design. (Ref. photo page 201 in the book Sailplanes
> by Schweizer) I'm sure they are expensive if bought from Schweizer.
> They have Standard Airworthiness Certificates.
>
> Jim


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.576 / Virus Database: 365 - Release Date: 1/30/04

[JC]

(Jim Phoenix) wrote:

>"Chuck" > wrote in message .net>...
>> Sorry, it is a Schweizer 1 36, which I assume would have a standard
>> certificate. He hasn't flown it yet, so he isn't dragging...yet...
>>
>
>It appears the 1-36 has wing tip wheel assemblies that are approved as
>part of its type design. (Ref. photo page 201 in the book Sailplanes
>by Schweizer) I'm sure they are expensive if bought from Schweizer.
>They have Standard Airworthiness Certificates.
>
>Jim


In my dealings with Schweizer, although limited, I have found there
prices to be quite reasonable. They have always been very helpful.
Try giving them a call. They can be reached at: 1-800-722-7253.
Good luck.

[Bill Daniels]

"Chuck" > wrote in message
link.net...
> But my question is, if we want to make our own instead of buying them, do
we
> need to get an STC?
>
Subject to confirmation, I believe there is a loophole in the FAR's that let
the owner/operator of a certified aircraft make parts for that aircraft.
However, those parts must be installed by an A&P and suitable logbook
entries made.

Bill Daniels
(Happy to own a glider with an experimental certificate of airworthiness)

[Tim Ward]

"Bill Daniels" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Chuck" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> > But my question is, if we want to make our own instead of buying them,
do
> we
> > need to get an STC?
> >
> Subject to confirmation, I believe there is a loophole in the FAR's that
let
> the owner/operator of a certified aircraft make parts for that aircraft.
> However, those parts must be installed by an A&P and suitable logbook
> entries made.
>
> Bill Daniels
> (Happy to own a glider with an experimental certificate of airworthiness)

Take a look at:
http://www1.faa.gov/avr/afs/news/archive/julyaugust/IvsWe.htm

and see if you can get any of those ideas to work for you.

Tim Ward

[Jim Phoenix]

You can make your own parts for your Standard category glider. There's
guidance on that, they just need to be identical to the manufacturer's
parts, do a search on www.faa.gov, there's AC's and other topics that
will guide you.

I've bought new parts from Schweizer, like a new 1-26 release arm for
$186. I know the tip wheels (with steel springs) are VERY expensive,
but can't remember how many hundreds of dollars they were. Some parts
may not be, like some placards seemed reasonable. Call them and then
let us know what they quote you for those wheel assemblies (I presume
you need the spring steel mounts as well?), maybe I'm wrong, or they
lowered the price, it's been a couple of years.

If you need to only replace the wheels, like Bill said, they appear to
be very similar to hockey pucks and legend has it, that's what they
were. Certainly don't need an STC, if it were even classified as a
major alteraiton, your local IA can handle that process, but that
seems a bit excessive for tip wheels.

Jim

[Bill Daniels]

"Jim Phoenix" > wrote in message
om...
> If you need to only replace the wheels, like Bill said, they appear to
> be very similar to hockey pucks and legend has it, that's what they
> were. Certainly don't need an STC, if it were even classified as a
> major alteraiton, your local IA can handle that process, but that
> seems a bit excessive for tip wheels.
>
> Jim

Shop trick: If you need to drill holes in a bunch of hockey pucks, freeze
them in liquid nitrogen. Once frozen, they drill just like aluminum. (LN2
is very cheap from industrial gas suppliers. They'll rent you a small dewar
to transport it with.)

(If you fly a Schweizer, you'll NEED a bunch of hockey pucks with holes in
them.)

Bill Daniels

[Jim Phoenix]

Good trick Bill,

Those dewars are also handy for installing press-fit bushings. Just don't
drop the hockey puck in its frozen state!

Jim

"Bill Daniels" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jim Phoenix" > wrote in message
> om...
> > If you need to only replace the wheels, like Bill said, they appear to
> > be very similar to hockey pucks and legend has it, that's what they
> > were. Certainly don't need an STC, if it were even classified as a
> > major alteraiton, your local IA can handle that process, but that
> > seems a bit excessive for tip wheels.
> >
> > Jim
>
> Shop trick: If you need to drill holes in a bunch of hockey pucks, freeze
> them in liquid nitrogen. Once frozen, they drill just like aluminum. (LN2
> is very cheap from industrial gas suppliers. They'll rent you a small
dewar
> to transport it with.)
>
> (If you fly a Schweizer, you'll NEED a bunch of hockey pucks with holes in
> them.)
>
> Bill Daniels
>

[Chuck]

"Tim Ward" > wrote in message
...

<snip>

> Take a look at:
> http://www1.faa.gov/avr/afs/news/archive/julyaugust/IvsWe.htm
>
> and see if you can get any of those ideas to work for you.
>
> Tim Ward
>
>

Great article Tim...

Looks like that pretty well answered my questions, and it even had
references!

After reading that, it sounds like that the owner of the glider can have the
part made under the glider owners supervision, and I , as an A&P, can
install the part with just a logbook entry.

Thanks a million!
You guys are great!

Chuck


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.576 / Virus Database: 365 - Release Date: 1/30/04

[Scott]

Uh, I think that if you build the part yourself, you must have an original
to use as a pattern or the engineering plans from the type certificate
holder so that you are making an EXACT copy of the "certified" part using
the EXACT materials used to make the certified part. If all of that is
done, I believe a log book entry is sufficient

--
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Building RV-4
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die

"Chuck" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Tim Ward" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> <snip>
>
> > Take a look at:
> > http://www1.faa.gov/avr/afs/news/archive/julyaugust/IvsWe.htm
> >
> > and see if you can get any of those ideas to work for you.
> >
> > Tim Ward
> >
> >
>
> Great article Tim...
>
> Looks like that pretty well answered my questions, and it even had
> references!
>
> After reading that, it sounds like that the owner of the glider can have
the
> part made under the glider owners supervision, and I , as an A&P, can
> install the part with just a logbook entry.
>
> Thanks a million!
> You guys are great!
>
> Chuck
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.576 / Virus Database: 365 - Release Date: 1/30/04
>
>

[plasticguy]

"Bob Kuykendall" >> In general:
>
> The majority of gliders operate under the same FARs
> as small airplanes. The way I understand it, an STC
> and/or 337 paperwork is only required if the glider
> holds type certification and a standard airworthiness
> certificate, and then only if it is determined that
> the addition constitutes a major modification.
>
> If the glider holds Experimental certification (either
> Racing, Exhibition, or Amateur-Built) and a Special
> Airworthiness Certificate, probably all that is required
> is a logbook entry by the installer. For Experimentals,
> the operating limitations that accompany the airworthiness
> certificate will probably have specific instructions
> about modifications.
>
> Thanks, and best regards to all
>
> Bob K.
> http://www.hpaircraft.com


DING!!!! We have a winner.

An STC is not required. An STC is a device that allows for repeated
installations of a
pre-engineered assembly on multiple aircraft. There is linkage with an STC
and a PMA
holder for the manufacture of the components.

A form 337 will be required and an associated field approval noted in the
logbook.
This is because the scope of the work will exceed AC43's descriptions of
repairs.
Since it isn't outlined in AC43, the feds make the assumption that it will
be a major
modification. The logic being that it isn't defined as a Major Repair or
Alteration or
allowable as a minor repair. That leaves a 337 as the regulators way out.
The good news
is that you can do it on the cheap with skate wheels that work really well
and the paperwork
isn't that involved.

I also think you might need to brush up on the regs if you hang your shingle
out
and work in the real world. All the doc's are online and the AD notes are
on CD
and the omnthly updates are reasonable (and mandatory if your an IA).

Bob is correct about logbook entrys being needed for Experimental AC but in
actual practice this seldom occurs as the config of the a/p usually isn't
clearly defined
when the CofA is issued......

Food for thought

Scott..

[BTIZ]

I believe a DAR can look at the parts and certify them for use.

we had to do that with the top fiberglass cover for the rudder on our glider

BT

"Chuck" > wrote in message
link.net...
> But my question is, if we want to make our own instead of buying them, do
we
> need to get an STC?
>
>
>
> "Jim Phoenix" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "Chuck" > wrote in message
> .net>...
> > > Sorry, it is a Schweizer 1 36, which I assume would have a standard
> > > certificate. He hasn't flown it yet, so he isn't dragging...yet...
> > >
> >
> > It appears the 1-36 has wing tip wheel assemblies that are approved as
> > part of its type design. (Ref. photo page 201 in the book Sailplanes
> > by Schweizer) I'm sure they are expensive if bought from Schweizer.
> > They have Standard Airworthiness Certificates.
> >
> > Jim
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.576 / Virus Database: 365 - Release Date: 1/30/04
>
>