FAI turnpoint Question

[Mark Grubb]

Trying to find the following information and an FAI Sporting Code
reference for the following:

1) The minimum separation between turnpoints on a 3-turn task

2) Maximum distance between start and finish on a closed circuit FAI
task
(O&R or Triangle)

Thanks!

[Thorsten Föge]

"Mark Grubb" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
om...
> Trying to find the following information and an FAI Sporting Code
> reference for the following:
>
> 1) The minimum separation between turnpoints on a 3-turn task
>
> 2) Maximum distance between start and finish on a closed circuit FAI
> task
> (O&R or Triangle)
>
> Thanks!

Hello Mark,

take a look to

http://www.fai.org/general_aviation/documents/

best regards

Thorsten

[tango4]

1 - simple - 10km 1.4.3 - c Free distance using up to 3 TP's

2 - not so simple - A closed course is defined in 1.1.15 as 'A flight where
the glider is required to return to the START POINT at the finish of the
SOARING PERFORMANCE.' If you have to return to the start then a 'remote
finish' ( a term not actually defined in the code ) is of no benefit.
'Closed course' implies that the start point is both the start and end of
the soaring performance. You can however declare a closed 1000 triangle,
fall down at the 750 point and claim a 750 free distance. ( in the UK )

On a free distance flight there is apparently no limit to the seperation of
start and finish.

Ian


"Mark Grubb" > wrote in message
om...
> Trying to find the following information and an FAI Sporting Code
> reference for the following:
>
> 1) The minimum separation between turnpoints on a 3-turn task
>
> 2) Maximum distance between start and finish on a closed circuit FAI
> task
> (O&R or Triangle)
>
> Thanks!

[Mark James Boyd]

Mark Grubb > wrote:
>Trying to find the following information and an FAI Sporting Code
>reference for the following:
>
>1) The minimum separation between turnpoints on a 3-turn task
>
>2) Maximum distance between start and finish on a closed circuit FAI
>task
> (O&R or Triangle)
>
>Thanks!

I read through some of this stuff, and came to an interesting
result:

It seemed that one could design a 3-TP course, where the start was
"release" and the finish was "landing" and with three
turnpoints which are all 10km away from each other.

If one recorded "release" by a GPS circle, and landed in the
OZ of this "release" it would be a closed circuit task. As far as
I know, one could then select any legal combination of these points
to qualify as a declared O&R, Triangle, 3-TP and free distance.

For O&R, use the start/finish/release/landing and the
furthest turnpoint. For triangle, use the
start and the furthest two qualifying triangle points.

I'm not sure if these qualify only as Free O&R/Free Triangle,
or pre-declared...

All of this because the start/finish are NOT considered
turnpoints (check the FAI definition of
"turnpoint").

I haven't tried this but my reading of the sporting code
seems to support this interpretation, to the best I can tell.
I intend to do this for the 300km Gold distance, and think this
will allow me to complete the task without ever flying more than
50km from the start/finish. It also means, if I land out, my
aero-retrieve will cost under $100.


Anyone who has submitted a claim like this and had it
denied, please tell us why...

[tango4]

I don't get it, can you elaborate? Post a sample task!

Ian

[Tom Serkowski]

Declare your airport as the start and finish. Then:
The first turn is 50 km to the north.
Second turn is 50 km to the south. Total is now 150 km
Third turn is 50 km to the north, but 10 km away from 1st turn. Total
is now 250 km.
And a return back to the airport yields 300 km.

-Tom

(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:<4028777b$1@darkstar>...

> I haven't tried this but my reading of the sporting code
> seems to support this interpretation, to the best I can tell.
> I intend to do this for the 300km Gold distance, and think this
> will allow me to complete the task without ever flying more than
> 50km from the start/finish. It also means, if I land out, my
> aero-retrieve will cost under $100.
>
>
> Anyone who has submitted a claim like this and had it
> denied, please tell us why...

[Mark James Boyd]

In article >,
tango4 > wrote:
>I don't get it, can you elaborate? Post a sample task!
>
>Ian
>
>

OK, assume you have your gliderport: LaNeva (no relation to Avenal).

You tow directly above the runway in use, release, and do an
immediate 360.

Then you fly north to a pre-declared turnpoint 50km north.
Then you fly directly south to a predeclared turnpoint
100km away. Then you fly 100km mostly north to a
predeclared turnpoint which is 10km east of the first turnpoint.
Then you fly mostly south back to LaNeva and
during the landing rollout you stop in the OZ of
the initial 360.

Diagram of LaNeva, and turnpoints 1,2,3:

1 3










L










2


The course seems to allow a LOT of flexibility.
It should qualify as a closed course, since the
start and finish point are the "same."
The turnpoints are all 10km+ away from each other.
I even think it qualifies for an O&R of 100km
(not just free O&R) but I'm not sure.

I intend to fly a course like this for the
gold distance. The advantage being I'll never be more than
about 50km from LaNeva, so retrieves are cheap.

Anyone try something like this before?

The reason to not just declare the start or
finish as "LaNeva" is twofold. If the release
and 360 were slightly off point, one can fix this
by landing on a different runway or at a different
point.

Second (and more important), if the thermals are
still cookin' at the end of the task, one can abandon
the closed course options and just keep flying
South until the total distance is 500km (gold
AND diamond distance), and then land.

It seems someone could also use this technique to
fly the Gold distance too without ever being more than
84km from the home field.

I welcome comments. This is a slightly complicated
subject for me...and the silver distance took me six
tries, so advice is encouraged :)

[Mark James Boyd]

In article <4029b339$1@darkstar>, Mark James Boyd > wrote:
>
>It seems someone could also use this technique to
>fly the Gold distance too without ever being more than
>84km from the home field.

Ooops, I meant to say one could fly the 500km Diamond distance without
ever being more than 84km from the home field...

>
>I welcome comments. This is a slightly complicated
>subject for me...and the silver distance took me six
>tries, so advice is encouraged :)

[tango4]

Oh, silly me! I read .....

> three turnpoints which are all 10km away from each other.

Which implies 3 turnpoints in a tight little isoscelese triangle, he didn't
say 2 turnpoints 10km apart from each other and another 100km away from
either of those two points!

The format would work as a 3 TP declared free distance but would not
constitute an FAI triangle.

If you made an isoscelese with each tp 100km apart, one being the start
finish and the triangle centred on the home airfield you could do a 300km
FAI triangle and only get 66km from home. You'd have to fly 432km to acheive
the task though. Home, start at one apex, fly the triangle and then home.

Pull the same trick with the 3 tp's a mere 116 km apart , do the start
finish at the home airfield and you've got your 500 km diamond without
getting more than 76.5 km from home and you only fly the 500 km. What's more
you might be able to claim both diamonds off this task.

But why not try doing it the real way?
300km - Straight out
500 km - O/R or at least a full FAI triangle with home as one apex.
Thermic diamond height - can be done in Namibia

:-)

Ian

[Mark James Boyd]

In article >,
tango4 > wrote:
>Oh, silly me! I read .....
>
>> three turnpoints which are all 10km away from each other.

Ooops...I should have wrote "at LEAST 10km away from each other..."
Sorry...

>
>Which implies 3 turnpoints in a tight little isoscelese triangle, he didn't
>say 2 turnpoints 10km apart from each other and another 100km away from
>either of those two points!

Glad I drew a picture...saves on typing

>
>The format would work as a 3 TP declared free distance but would not
>constitute an FAI triangle.

Agreed...

>
>If you made an isoscelese with each tp 100km apart, one being the start
>finish and the triangle centred on the home airfield you could do a 300km
>FAI triangle and only get 66km from home. You'd have to fly 432km to acheive
>the task though. Home, start at one apex, fly the triangle and then home.

Or, after reaching the home airport at the end, continue flying straight
on for another 68+ km and then land for the 500km. After all, who
wants to do a 500k without any landout at all? :)

I suppose since it would be the end of the day, I'd want to make my
last leg of any of these downwind...

>
>Pull the same trick with the 3 tp's a mere 116 km apart , do the start
>finish at the home airfield and you've got your 500 km diamond without
>getting more than 76.5 km from home and you only fly the 500 km. What's more
>you might be able to claim both diamonds off this task.

Yep. I think the triangles are MUCH harder than an O&R, however.
All the different types of updrafts seem to be best along
(mostly) linear ground features most of the time. Sure, sure, there
are exceptions, but a nice long ridge is responsible for
a lot of world records...and I'm not aware of any world triangle records
that exceed their O&R counterparts (although for US records that
Knauff guy and some of his cronies in PA destroy this otherwise tidy
generalization).

>
>But why not try doing it the real way?
>300km - Straight out
>500 km - O/R or at least a full FAI triangle with home as one apex.
>Thermic diamond height - can be done in Namibia

As I point out in my up and coming book "The Budget Soarer" (NOT!)
I'm trying to minimize the retrieve and cost. It's also really
fun to get to know thoroughly all of the area right near my home
gliderport...travelling to Namibia doesn't really fit into my
goals personally...

>
>:-)
:-)
>
>Ian
Mark

[Andrew Warbrick]

At 05:30 11 February 2004, Tango4 wrote:

Snip ....
>But why not try doing it the real way?
>300km - Straight out

You can only claim gold distance out of a straight
300k, diamond goal is a triangle or O/R.

>500 km - O/R or at least a full FAI triangle with home
>as one apex.

That would be nice, unfortunately at some clubs (including
mine) you fall off the edge of the country or hit airspace
if you try to fly a 500k triangle, let alone an O/R,
a 500k triangle with the club halfway along one leg
might just be on, except either the sea breeze would
get you, or you'd spend way too long jumping wave gaps.

snip...

[tango4]

I can fit a 750km FAI triangle into the Uk and from Parham it's actually
acheivable.

PAR, PRE, BRN, PAR ( Parham Prestign up through the Midlands/manchester
airspace gap to Burn and then home to Parham ( via approximately Newbury to
miss the Heathrow airspace ) The FAI distance is 755km tha actual distance
around the airspaces is about 785.

Not impossible if we get another day like August 15th last year.

Ian

[Derrick Steed]

I can fit a 750km FAI triangle into the Uk and from Parham it's actually
acheivable.

PAR, PRE, BRN, PAR ( Parham Prestign up through the Midlands/manchester
airspace gap to Burn and then home to Parham ( via approximately Newbury to
miss the Heathrow airspace ) The FAI distance is 755km tha actual distance
around the airspaces is about 785.

Not impossible if we get another day like August 15th last year.

Ian



Have you ever been through Manchesters low level corridor? it's busy! or did
you mean something else?

Rgds,

Derrick.

[Denis Flament]

Mark Grubb wrote:

> Trying to find the following information and an FAI Sporting Code
> reference for the following:
>
> 1) The minimum separation between turnpoints on a 3-turn task

10 km

> 2) Maximum distance between start and finish on a closed circuit FAI
> task
> (O&R or Triangle)

0 km

(closed circuit implies start point = finish point)

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?