PW-5's can't even win in their own class!

[Liam Finley]

Check out the cumulative results for the "Sports-PW5" class in NZ:

http://glidingmatamata.co.nz/competition/cumulative_sports-pw5.htm

Priceless.

[Bruce Hoult]

In article >,
(Liam Finley) wrote:

> Check out the cumulative results for the "Sports-PW5" class in NZ:
>
> http://glidingmatamata.co.nz/competition/cumulative_sports-pw5.htm
>
> Priceless.

I don't understand your point and I don't think you do either.

This is not "the PW5's own class". It is the "sports" class, which is a
handicapped contest in which a PW5 gets its nominal score while a K6 has
its task time reduced by a few percent in order to make it possible for
any glider in the contest to win, depending on pilot skill rather than
the type of glider flown. Which is exactly what is happening.

-- Bruce

[JohnD]

In your cups again eh Liam? Perhaps you should wait until tomorrow
after the hangover has past and then give it a bit more thought why
don't ye?

(Liam Finley) wrote in message >...
> Check out the cumulative results for the "Sports-PW5" class in NZ:
>
> http://glidingmatamata.co.nz/competition/cumulative_sports-pw5.htm
>
> Priceless.

[G.Kurek]

Priceless?
Look at last year's US World Class Nationals results, Sebastian Kawa
took a second place after missing 2 days of the contest (and he missed
the first place by millimeters) - learning of how to fly the Pw-5
that's priceless!

[Liam Finley]

(JohnD) wrote in message >...
> In your cups again eh Liam? Perhaps you should wait until tomorrow
> after the hangover has past and then give it a bit more thought why
> don't ye?
>

Funny, if a buddy of mine told me he was considering buying a peewee,
that's exactly what I would say to him.

[Paul]

The sad part.
There are 23 PW 5 s here in NZ.
22 of those reside in the North Island. A half days drive from Matamata ( at
the most ) where the contest was held.
Only 4 fronted up.



"Liam Finley" > wrote in message
om...
> Check out the cumulative results for the "Sports-PW5" class in NZ:
>
> http://glidingmatamata.co.nz/competition/cumulative_sports-pw5.htm
>
> Priceless.

[Bruce Hoult]

In article >,
"Paul" > wrote:
> The sad part.
> There are 23 PW 5 s here in NZ.
> 22 of those reside in the North Island. A half days drive from Matamata ( at
> the most ) where the contest was held.
> Only 4 fronted up.

That does seem sad -- I remember having a lot more than that at the PW5
nationals I attended in Masterton a couple of years back.

I was at least quadruple booked with non-work things to do last week:

- PW5 nats

- Wellington Gliding club camp at Kauwhata

- invitation to stay at friends' bach

- organizing and attending 2nd International Dylan Hacker's
Conference (http://www.gwydiondylan.org/dhc2004.phtml)

I don't know what anyone else's excuse was :-)

-- Bruce

[Owain Walters]

Liam,

Dont worry mate. The irony wasnt lost on me, I thought
it was funny.

Saying that, I also laugh every time I see one of those
sperm cells with wings when I go past them in my 31
year old glider which is 1/2 the price!

Owain


At 06:48 12 February 2004, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>In article ,
> 'Paul' wrote:
>> The sad part.
>> There are 23 PW 5 s here in NZ.
>> 22 of those reside in the North Island. A half days
>>drive from Matamata ( at
>> the most ) where the contest was held.
>> Only 4 fronted up.
>
>That does seem sad -- I remember having a lot more
>than that at the PW5
>nationals I attended in Masterton a couple of years
>back.
>
>I was at least quadruple booked with non-work things
>to do last week:
>
> - PW5 nats
>
> - Wellington Gliding club camp at Kauwhata
>
> - invitation to stay at friends' bach
>
> - organizing and attending 2nd International Dylan
>Hacker's
> Conference (http://www.gwydiondylan.org/dhc2004.phtml)
>
>I don't know what anyone else's excuse was :-)
>
>-- Bruce
>

[Ben Flewett]

Wouldn't it be great if whoever ends up buying LS allows
either LS4s or LS8s to be manufactured under license
as the new world class glider? (Assuming strict quality
controls were put in place to prevent further Eastern
Block atrocities).

The concept of a World Class is excellent. We just
need to switch these Polish flashes of brilliance for
a proper glider.


At 12:18 12 February 2004, Owain Walters wrote:
>
>Liam,
>
>Dont worry mate. The irony wasnt lost on me, I thought
>it was funny.
>
>Saying that, I also laugh every time I see one of those
>sperm cells with wings when I go past them in my 31
>year old glider which is 1/2 the price!
>
>Owain
>
>
>At 06:48 12 February 2004, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>>In article ,
>> 'Paul' wrote:
>>> The sad part.
>>> There are 23 PW 5 s here in NZ.
>>> 22 of those reside in the North Island. A half days
>>>drive from Matamata ( at
>>> the most ) where the contest was held.
>>> Only 4 fronted up.
>>
>>That does seem sad -- I remember having a lot more
>>than that at the PW5
>>nationals I attended in Masterton a couple of years
>>back.
>>
>>I was at least quadruple booked with non-work things
>>to do last week:
>>
>> - PW5 nats
>>
>> - Wellington Gliding club camp at Kauwhata
>>
>> - invitation to stay at friends' bach
>>
>> - organizing and attending 2nd International Dylan
>>Hacker's
>> Conference (http://www.gwydiondylan.org/dhc2004.phtml)
>>
>>I don't know what anyone else's excuse was :-)
>>
>>-- Bruce
>>
>
>
>
>

[Detlev Hoppenrath]

Ever flew one of these sperm cells (funny, here in Germany we use the same
term, actually it would translate to "flying sperm cells)? Not too bad. To
be honest - I don't care how the bird looks as long as it flies halfways
decently.

However - even as a peewee pilot I would not go so far to say that the
little beauty is a performance miracle. But you know why I fly it? I am 2
meters tall and it is one of the few planes I am comfortable in... And
that's really funny, considered how small it is (always a good laugh for
bystanders to see me unfolding out of the little thing).

Detlev
--
http://gliding.hoppenrath.com
http://www.alpenstreckenflug.de


"Owain Walters" > schrieb im
Newsbeitrag ...
>
> Liam,
>
> Dont worry mate. The irony wasnt lost on me, I thought
> it was funny.
>
> Saying that, I also laugh every time I see one of those
> sperm cells with wings when I go past them in my 31
> year old glider which is 1/2 the price!
>
> Owain
>
>
> At 06:48 12 February 2004, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> >In article ,
> > 'Paul' wrote:
> >> The sad part.
> >> There are 23 PW 5 s here in NZ.
> >> 22 of those reside in the North Island. A half days
> >>drive from Matamata ( at
> >> the most ) where the contest was held.
> >> Only 4 fronted up.
> >
> >That does seem sad -- I remember having a lot more
> >than that at the PW5
> >nationals I attended in Masterton a couple of years
> >back.
> >
> >I was at least quadruple booked with non-work things
> >to do last week:
> >
> > - PW5 nats
> >
> > - Wellington Gliding club camp at Kauwhata
> >
> > - invitation to stay at friends' bach
> >
> > - organizing and attending 2nd International Dylan
> >Hacker's
> > Conference (http://www.gwydiondylan.org/dhc2004.phtml)
> >
> >I don't know what anyone else's excuse was :-)
> >
> >-- Bruce
> >
>
>
>

[303pilot]

As a former PW owner I've got to point out that a PW5 won the Sports class
in US Region 9 last year. Won by 349 points.
They are what they are.
They do what a pilot can coax them to do.

Brent

[Paul]

"The concept of a World Class is excellent. We just
need to switch these Polish flashes of brilliance for
a proper glider."

As there is no shortage of LS 4s, Discus, DG 300s all you would need to do
is name the World class glider of choice. ( if you have the nerve :-). The
Discus is already made in the " Eastern Block " As well as the DG 303 but
they sure don't come at a price that is going to assist the world class
buyer. Where ever they are made they will end up being pricey. There are
enough gliders now to do the "one Class thing ". We don't need a new design
or cheaper gliders. We need to get pilots to show at the contests with
whatever the glider is. What I was pointing out was not something lacking on
the PW 5 s part but on the whole package. Are the contests fun?
Do the owners/pilots of the PW 5s feel like going? Have they being invited?
Would it be any different if they all owned LS 4 s or 8s? Weather a factor?
Time of year?

Paul

[Mark James Boyd]

In article >,
Paul > wrote:
>"The concept of a World Class is excellent. We just
>need to switch these Polish flashes of brilliance for
>a proper glider."
>
>As there is no shortage of LS 4s, Discus, DG 300s all you would need to do
>is name the World class glider of choice. ( if you have the nerve :-). The
>Discus is already made in the " Eastern Block " As well as the DG 303 but
>they sure don't come at a price that is going to assist the world class
>buyer. Where ever they are made they will end up being pricey. There are
>enough gliders now to do the "one Class thing ". We don't need a new design
>or cheaper gliders. We need to get pilots to show at the contests with
>whatever the glider is. What I was pointing out was not something lacking on
>the PW 5 s part but on the whole package. Are the contests fun?
>Do the owners/pilots of the PW 5s feel like going? Have they being invited?
>Would it be any different if they all owned LS 4 s or 8s? Weather a factor?
>Time of year?
>
>Paul

One wonders if the Sparrowhawk would make it as a world class glider.
Certainly it has much in common with the PW-5 and Russia
(light weight, short wings, easy rigging, better polar but
close, fixed gear, no flaps).

The price would be a slight issue (perhaps in volume it
could go back below $20K). Also maybe that it would be
hard to duplicate elsewhere...

But a nice thought...

[Going fer it]

Just to throw a "bit of balance " into that statement.

Same competition had a club class. 250 aircraft available - only 10
entries.(including a PW6).
The sad part is that as life changes many pilots find other priorities
impact on their flying.

The majority of PW5s in NZ are club owned and no club owned gliders
appeared at the latest competition!
Previous contestants flying club gliders have moved to different
classes (one to club class, one to standard class) and others have
left the gliding movement.

Of course we should also remember that perhaps it is Matamata :-) as
very few wanted to come to the PW5 World event last year.....

and That was REALLY sad :-(




"Paul" > wrote in message >...
> The sad part.
> There are 23 PW 5 s here in NZ.
> 22 of those reside in the North Island. A half days drive from Matamata ( at
> the most ) where the contest was held.
> Only 4 fronted up.
>
>
>
> "Liam Finley" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Check out the cumulative results for the "Sports-PW5" class in NZ:
> >
> > http://glidingmatamata.co.nz/competition/cumulative_sports-pw5.htm
> >
> > Priceless.

[Ben Flewett]

Paul,

Agreed. So let’s do it!

In order to make the World Class successful you need
a glider that performs well enough that good competition
pilots are prepared to move out of their LS8s, Discus,
Ventus, ASW27, etc.

Almost all glider pilots can only afford one glider.
This means that pilots want to own a glider that they
are happy to fly recreationally during the weekends.
In Europe there are very few pilots that are prepared
to fly a PW5 during the weekends and Europe is home
for the majority of glider pilots. In addition to
this I don’t consider PW5s safe to fly in mountain
conditions (you don’t see many (perhaps any) PWs in
Omarama or the French Alps).

The PW5 has failed, and will continue to fail, to make
the World Class successful.

However, the world class is an excellent concept.
I would happily sell my D2 and fly an LS4 in the World
Class and I know many other pilots that feel this way.
However, I don’t want to move to a PW5. I am not
being difficult or elitist – I just want to be able
to do decent flights in the weekend. I know all things
are relative and people have done 750km flights in
PWs in top conditions, blah, blah, blah, but it’s just
not for me.

I would like to have less money tied up in my glider
and still be able to fly in a comp where my glider
is as good as anyone else’s. However, I want to fly
against good pilots and I am not prepared to go back
40 years in terms of the glider I fly.

Ben.




At 00:00 13 February 2004, Paul wrote:
>'The concept of a World Class is excellent. We just
>need to switch these Polish flashes of brilliance for
>a proper glider.'
>
>As there is no shortage of LS 4s, Discus, DG 300s all
>you would need to do
>is name the World class glider of choice. ( if you
>have the nerve :-). The
>Discus is already made in the ' Eastern Block ' As
>well as the DG 303 but
>they sure don't come at a price that is going to assist
>the world class
>buyer. Where ever they are made they will end up being
>pricey. There are
>enough gliders now to do the 'one Class thing '. We
>don't need a new design
>or cheaper gliders. We need to get pilots to show
>at the contests with
>whatever the glider is. What I was pointing out was
>not something lacking on
>the PW 5 s part but on the whole package. Are the contests
>fun?
>Do the owners/pilots of the PW 5s feel like going?
>Have they being invited?
>Would it be any different if they all owned LS 4 s
>or 8s? Weather a factor?
>Time of year?
>
>Paul
>
>
>
>
>

[Paul T]

Over 1000 produced, a club sailplane in many European
countries, good safe flying charecteristics, adequate
performance for most, and at a price less than a new
PW-5, B****Y obvious what should be the World Class
glider - the LS4!
Pity the manufacturer as gone tits up and who knows
who owns the LS assets now?

[Robert Ehrlich]

Mark James Boyd wrote:
> ...
> One wonders if the Sparrowhawk would make it as a world class glider.
> Certainly it has much in common with the PW-5 and Russia
> (light weight, short wings, easy rigging, better polar but
> close, fixed gear, no flaps).
> ...

At least in one country (France, where I live and fly) the Sparrowhawk
would be illegal. According to the french regulation, for a glider
to be considered as ultralight, it should be foot launchable, otherwise
it must be certified, or have an engine, i.e. not be a glider. So
the Sparrowhawk could only be a world-minus-one-country class glider.

[chris]

Robert Ehrlich > wrote in message >...
> At least in one country (France, where I live and fly) the Sparrowhawk
> would be illegal. According to the french regulation, for a glider
> to be considered as ultralight, it should be foot launchable, otherwise
> it must be certified, or have an engine, i.e. not be a glider. So
> the Sparrowhawk could only be a world-minus-one-country class glider.

I do not understand why a sparrowhawk would be "illegal" in France -
here in the US you have the option to either fly it ultralight or as
experimental [same rating as a large percentage of the "factory
experimental" experimental certificate. My mosquito is "experimental"
rather than standard type certificate.

Can you only fly gliders in france that have a standard type
certificate?

Chris

[Robert Ehrlich]

chris wrote:
>
> Robert Ehrlich > wrote in message >...
> > At least in one country (France, where I live and fly) the Sparrowhawk
> > would be illegal. According to the french regulation, for a glider
> > to be considered as ultralight, it should be foot launchable, otherwise
> > it must be certified, or have an engine, i.e. not be a glider. So
> > the Sparrowhawk could only be a world-minus-one-country class glider.
>
> I do not understand why a sparrowhawk would be "illegal" in France -
> here in the US you have the option to either fly it ultralight or as
> experimental [same rating as a large percentage of the "factory
> experimental" experimental certificate. My mosquito is "experimental"
> rather than standard type certificate.
>
> Can you only fly gliders in france that have a standard type
> certificate?
>
> Chris

Yes, there is no experimental category. Your only choice is between
certified or ultralight, but for a glider to be considered as ultralight,
it should be either foot launchable or have an engine, i.e. be in the
category ULM, where the M means motorized.