Winch Operations

[Frank Smith]

We are getting close to getting our first winch operation going and need to
develop some Ops and Procedures.
I hate starting with a "blank page"
Anybody have some Ops and Procedures to send my way to get started?


Regards,
Frank

My return address is slightly modified to reduce SPAM.

[Janos Bauer]

There are a lot of articles about this issue, but here are the main rules:

- take special care about the first 50m!!!
- don't climb too steep, keep the speed high enough to react cable
break/winch failure.
- always be prepared for cable break/winch failure, decide what to do on
different altitudes BEFORE take-off!!
- always release cable in case of emergency, several pilots landed with
cable
- winch driver also should cut the cable without hesitation in case of
emergency
- discuss common signaling method between winch driver and pilots (at
our site: too slow use ailerons, too fast use rudder)
- clear airspace before launch
- check weather situation (lightning!)

Have fun:)

/Janos

Frank Smith wrote:
> We are getting close to getting our first winch operation going and need to
> develop some Ops and Procedures.
> I hate starting with a "blank page"
> Anybody have some Ops and Procedures to send my way to get started?
>
>
> Regards,
> Frank
>
> My return address is slightly modified to reduce SPAM.
>
>

[Lars Peder Hansen]

Janos' recommendations are good, with one exception:
> - discuss common signaling method between winch driver and pilots (at
> our site: too slow use ailerons, too fast use rudder)

At my home field (and throughout Denmark), we use:
Too slow: Lower nose somewhat, signal with rudder.
Too fast: Signal with ailerons.
When too slow (and maybe with too high AOA for the speed), aileron
deflections that might get one wing above critical AOA is the last thing we
want, right?

Anyway, be 100% sure what signals to use! -As we see, they can differ from
site to site.
What do the rest of you winchers use for signalling out there?

Happy Soaring,
Lars Peder
Mosquito W6, Denmark.


"Janos Bauer" > wrote in message
...
> There are a lot of articles about this issue, but here are the main rules:
>
> - take special care about the first 50m!!!
> - don't climb too steep, keep the speed high enough to react cable
> break/winch failure.
> - always be prepared for cable break/winch failure, decide what to do on
> different altitudes BEFORE take-off!!
> - always release cable in case of emergency, several pilots landed with
> cable
> - winch driver also should cut the cable without hesitation in case of
> emergency
> - discuss common signaling method between winch driver and pilots (at
> our site: too slow use ailerons, too fast use rudder)
> - clear airspace before launch
> - check weather situation (lightning!)
>
> Have fun:)
>
> /Janos
>
> Frank Smith wrote:
> > We are getting close to getting our first winch operation going and need
to
> > develop some Ops and Procedures.
> > I hate starting with a "blank page"
> > Anybody have some Ops and Procedures to send my way to get started?
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> > Frank
> >
> > My return address is slightly modified to reduce SPAM.
> >
> >
>

[Mullin]

This may be a off the wall suggestion but with the learning curve
required and the potential for a serious accident if a pilot doesn't react
correctly or quickly enough
Why not do a deal to import the teaching experience you need .
Why reinvent the wheel.
Worldwide there are a large number highly qualified people who could
transplant their knowledge.
I know of several retired people (they have the time) at my club who are
both A cat instructers,winchdriver rated and have vast experience from
all round the world ,one in particular has competed at a number of world
championships.
There are bound to be others with similar qualities , all you need
is a deal that makes it attractive, I would say probably airfares and a
place
to stay with food , maybe a block of time in a local single seater so they
can
go xcountry in a new area.
If you advertised you might be pleasantly surprised.


"Frank Smith" > wrote in message
k.net...
> We are getting close to getting our first winch operation going and need
to
> develop some Ops and Procedures.
> I hate starting with a "blank page"
> Anybody have some Ops and Procedures to send my way to get started?
>
>
> Regards,
> Frank
>
> My return address is slightly modified to reduce SPAM.
>
>

[Janos Bauer]

Of course we also lower the nose (generally it's enough for most of
the winch drivers:) before the ailerons are actuated. The winch driver
facing to the sailplane and moving of wings is much more visible than
the fuselage twisting.
If the speed is too high probably you fly with steep angle and in this
position the winch driver will see the glider belly only. Ailerons
movement will make small effect but rudders will shake the whole fuselage.
Regards,

/Janos

Lars Peder Hansen wrote:
> Janos' recommendations are good, with one exception:
>
>>- discuss common signaling method between winch driver and pilots (at
>>our site: too slow use ailerons, too fast use rudder)
>
>
> At my home field (and throughout Denmark), we use:
> Too slow: Lower nose somewhat, signal with rudder.
> Too fast: Signal with ailerons.
> When too slow (and maybe with too high AOA for the speed), aileron
> deflections that might get one wing above critical AOA is the last thing we
> want, right?

[Stefan]

Lars Peder Hansen wrote:

> What do the rest of you winchers use for signalling out there?

Radio.

Stefan

[Janos Bauer]

It could be difficult on our noisy Hercules H4:)

/Janos

Stefan wrote:
> Lars Peder Hansen wrote:
>
>> What do the rest of you winchers use for signalling out there?
>
>
> Radio.
>
> Stefan
>

[Kevin Neave]

>Lars Peder Hansen wrote:
>
>> What do the rest of you winchers use for signalling
>>out there?
>
>

Too fast -- Signal with rudder - needs to be positive
enough that the winch driver can tell the difference
between a signal & a badly flown launch

Too Slow - Abandon the launch while you still have
time/space to land ahead. Any signal that's positive
enough for the winch driver to see (Aileron or Rudder)
with marginal speed and the extra weight/load of the
cable is simply asking for something nasty to happen

:-)

[Don Johnstone]

You need to carefully think about this. Time was in
the UK when the signal for too fast was yawing the
glider (it still is) and the signal for too slow was
lower the nose and 'signal with ailerons'. The latter
procedure was 'banned' some years ago, with good reason
and replaced by lower the nose, if the airspeed does
not increase, RELEASE and treat as a launch failure.
A glider on the launch is carrying a large amount of
cable which increases the wing loading, the wing is
almost certainly already at a high angle of attack
and if motive power is lost this has to increase. (as
airspeed reduces angle of attack increases to maintain
flight). Knowing what happens if the angle of attack
of a wing is increased by moving the airleron down
on one wing, when that wing is already at a high angle
of attack, do you really want to do that. One wing
stalled=possibility of spinning with the cable still
attached, not something that you will want to do. This
scenario is induced by moving the ailerons in this
situation. That is why the practice was discontinued
in the UK. Use of the rudder (yawing) at a high angle
of attack is probably even worse, makes me cringe to
think about it.

I agree with the gentleman who advised getting an experienced
winch launch instructor to see you through the first
few days/weeks. It may cost a few shekels but what
value do you put on a life

At 10:48 12 February 2004, Janos Bauer wrote:
> Of course we also lower the nose (generally it's
>enough for most of
>the winch drivers:) before the ailerons are actuated.
>The winch driver
>facing to the sailplane and moving of wings is much
>more visible than
>the fuselage twisting.
> If the speed is too high probably you fly with steep
>angle and in this
>position the winch driver will see the glider belly
>only. Ailerons
>movement will make small effect but rudders will shake
>the whole fuselage.
> Regards,
>
>/Janos
>
>Lars Peder Hansen wrote:
>> Janos' recommendations are good, with one exception:
>>
>>>- discuss common signaling method between winch driver
>>>and pilots (at
>>>our site: too slow use ailerons, too fast use rudder)
>>
>>
>> At my home field (and throughout Denmark), we use:
>> Too slow: Lower nose somewhat, signal with rudder.
>> Too fast: Signal with ailerons.
>> When too slow (and maybe with too high AOA for the
>>speed), aileron
>> deflections that might get one wing above critical
>>AOA is the last thing we
>> want, right?
>
>

[Stefan]

Janos Bauer wrote:

> It could be difficult on our noisy Hercules H4:)

Well, there is a tool exactly for this. It's called headset.

Stefan

[Lars Peder Hansen]

Don, well said. I should have clarified what we teach here:
>> At my home field (and throughout Denmark), we use:
>> Too slow: Lower nose somewhat, signal with rudder.
Should read: Too slow: Lower nose somewhat, signal with rudder, if
conditions do not improve immediately, RELEASE and treat as launch failure.

What I find interesting is that rudder/aileron signals are apparently used
with inverse meaning, depending on where in the World you are launching.
Could get your attention if you forgot to check this at some visit to some
soaring Mecca one day..

/Lars Peder


"Don Johnstone" > wrote in
message ...
> You need to carefully think about this. Time was in
> the UK when the signal for too fast was yawing the
> glider (it still is) and the signal for too slow was
> lower the nose and 'signal with ailerons'. The latter
> procedure was 'banned' some years ago, with good reason
> and replaced by lower the nose, if the airspeed does
> not increase, RELEASE and treat as a launch failure.
> A glider on the launch is carrying a large amount of
> cable which increases the wing loading, the wing is
> almost certainly already at a high angle of attack
> and if motive power is lost this has to increase. (as
> airspeed reduces angle of attack increases to maintain
> flight). Knowing what happens if the angle of attack
> of a wing is increased by moving the airleron down
> on one wing, when that wing is already at a high angle
> of attack, do you really want to do that. One wing
> stalled=possibility of spinning with the cable still
> attached, not something that you will want to do. This
> scenario is induced by moving the ailerons in this
> situation. That is why the practice was discontinued
> in the UK. Use of the rudder (yawing) at a high angle
> of attack is probably even worse, makes me cringe to
> think about it.
>
> I agree with the gentleman who advised getting an experienced
> winch launch instructor to see you through the first
> few days/weeks. It may cost a few shekels but what
> value do you put on a life
>
>

[Janos Bauer]

Summer at 40-50 celsius?:)

Stefan wrote:
> Janos Bauer wrote:
>
>> It could be difficult on our noisy Hercules H4:)
>
>
> Well, there is a tool exactly for this. It's called headset.
>
> Stefan
>

[Andreas Maurer]

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:47:45 +0100, "Lars Peder Hansen"
> wrote:

>Don, well said. I should have clarified what we teach here:
>>> At my home field (and throughout Denmark), we use:
>>> Too slow: Lower nose somewhat, signal with rudder.
>Should read: Too slow: Lower nose somewhat, signal with rudder, if
>conditions do not improve immediately, RELEASE and treat as launch failure.
>
>What I find interesting is that rudder/aileron signals are apparently used
>with inverse meaning, depending on where in the World you are launching.
>Could get your attention if you forgot to check this at some visit to some
>soaring Mecca one day..

I find it even more interesting that these signs are still used today
with the availability of radio. When I'm already athigh AoA the last
thing I'd like to do would be using aileron or rudder - each of them a
perfect spin entry move.

I see things this way:
If the parameters of the launch leave the safe range, release
immediately and fly a standard rope-break pattern. Then have a talk
with the winch driver. Much ceaper than having a talk with the
insurance man if the winch driver did not apply power quickly enough.



Bye
Andreas

[Bill Daniels]

"Andreas Maurer" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:47:45 +0100, "Lars Peder Hansen"
> > wrote:
>
> >Don, well said. I should have clarified what we teach here:
> >>> At my home field (and throughout Denmark), we use:
> >>> Too slow: Lower nose somewhat, signal with rudder.
> >Should read: Too slow: Lower nose somewhat, signal with rudder, if
> >conditions do not improve immediately, RELEASE and treat as launch
failure.
> >
> >What I find interesting is that rudder/aileron signals are apparently
used
> >with inverse meaning, depending on where in the World you are launching.
> >Could get your attention if you forgot to check this at some visit to
some
> >soaring Mecca one day..
>
> I find it even more interesting that these signs are still used today
> with the availability of radio. When I'm already athigh AoA the last
> thing I'd like to do would be using aileron or rudder - each of them a
> perfect spin entry move.
>
> Bye
> Andreas

Me too. Use voice radio or better still, radio modems to send the airspeed
digitally to the winch driver.

However, The AOA isn't that critical. Measuring the AOA with a calibrated
"pitch string" during winch launches, I found that if the airspeed is in the
normal range, the AOA is about the same as best L/D.

Bill Daniels

[Stephen Haley]

So far very few have emphasised the safety aspects of winching

Ground operations
1) Keep everyone well clear of winch cables at all times
2) Never allow anyone to cross winch cables
3) Only pick up the next winch cable after the previous has been completely
drawn in
4) Never allow aero takeoffs over the cables (A plane went in at a UK club
after getting tangled up in the cables.)
5) Never allow open wheel landings across cables.
6) Retrieve vehicles should never cross the cables and gliders should only
land across them in extremis preferably with breaks off
7) Weak link should be shown to PIC immediately before launch
8) Mark the end of the cables with a bollard - this helps everyone to
clearly see where the cables are and also gives an aiming point when towing
out.
9) Field should be clear for emmegency landing in event of break before
permission to launch is given.

Stress at all times how dangerous the cables can be


Flying the cable
1) Speed should be between 1.5xVs and Vw
2) Transition should be smooth no reaching for the heavens it gains very
little and only endangers the pilot and anyone banging their tail on
rotation needs to be retaught asap.
3) Keep all PICs trained with regular simulated winch failures especially at
the tricky 200-300 ft height. You will see regular failures for real
especially if flying Inexperienced pilots.
4) Back release needs checking every day on each glider flying the winch
5) Weak Links should be examined before launch for fractures.
6) Keep a supply of spare strops/weak links at both ends of the cable (Winch
& Launch point)
7) Make sure you have a table easily available of what weak link to use for
each glider type

With respect to the winch itself most of it is fairly obvious ie inspect
everything at start of day and make sure that you have put down an earthing
spike. Cables are a great attractor for static/lightning.

To be honest you really need to borrow a winch driver from somewhere
preferably also with an Instructor unless any of yours have recent winch
experience. We have much tougher time limits on certification for winch than
aero if only because of the likelihood of a cable break resulting in a spin
close to the ground. I am sure that if you offered all expenses and a few
days flying then you would be inundated. I know enough about winching to
know that it is a real art form - I can normally tell who is winching me
just by the ride he gives me.

Winching is a great way to get a lot of gliders in the air cheaply and
quickly BUT you only have to look at the UK accident stats where winching is
common to see how dangerous they can really be.

The BGA recently published an article on winching you can find it at
http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/bulletins/winching.pdf

Hope this helps a little.

rgds
Stephen


"Frank Smith" > wrote in message
k.net...
> We are getting close to getting our first winch operation going and need
to
> develop some Ops and Procedures.
> I hate starting with a "blank page"
> Anybody have some Ops and Procedures to send my way to get started?
>
>
> Regards,
> Frank
>
> My return address is slightly modified to reduce SPAM.
>
>

[Bruce Greeff]

Soaring Society South Africa has a winch procedures manual here

http://www.mgc.org.za/MemberStuff/club_stuff.htm

[Stefan]

Janos Bauer wrote:

> Summer at 40-50 celsius?:)

What is your life worth? And, by the way, what is the ear of the winch
driver worth?

Stefan

[Wojciech Scigala]

12-02-2004 15:42, Janos Bauer:

>>> It could be difficult on our noisy Hercules H4:)
>> Well, there is a tool exactly for this. It's called headset.
> Summer at 40-50 celsius?:)
You need the headset only during the launch. We have both loudspeaker
and headset.

--
Wojtus'.net __|__
FidoNet: 2:484/47 `--------o--------'

[Bernhard Reinhardt]

Stephen Haley wrote:

> So far very few have emphasised the safety aspects of winching
>=20
> Ground operations
> 1) Keep everyone well clear of winch cables at all times
> 2) Never allow anyone to cross winch cables
> 3) Only pick up the next winch cable after the previous has been comple=
tely
> drawn in
> 4) Never allow aero takeoffs over the cables (A plane went in at a UK c=
lub
> after getting tangled up in the cables.)
> 5) Never allow open wheel landings across cables.
> 6) Retrieve vehicles should never cross the cables and gliders should o=
nly
> land across them in extremis preferably with breaks off
> 7) Weak link should be shown to PIC immediately before launch
> 8) Mark the end of the cables with a bollard - this helps everyone to
> clearly see where the cables are and also gives an aiming point when to=
wing
> out.
> 9) Field should be clear for emmegency landing in event of break before=

> permission to launch is given.

This is what I can add:

10) When launching on gras keep it very short (in case a wing drops)

11) We inspect the cable every day before the first launch (walking
along the cable holding it up with a hook; look for dry gras on the
cable!) and cut out any damaged pieces. Many clubs don=B4t do that and fl=
y
the cable till it breaks but although every pilot must be able to handle
a cable-break the risk is there. With this method real cable-breaks are
a very rare event at our site. Most times the weaklink breaks.

> Stress at all times how dangerous the cables can be
>=20
> Flying the cable
> 1) Speed should be between 1.5xVs and Vw
> 2) Transition should be smooth no reaching for the heavens it gains ver=
y
> little and only endangers the pilot and anyone banging their tail on
> rotation needs to be retaught asap.
> 3) Keep all PICs trained with regular simulated winch failures especial=
ly at
> the tricky 200-300 ft height. You will see regular failures for real
> especially if flying Inexperienced pilots.
> 4) Back release needs checking every day on each glider flying the winc=
h
> 5) Weak Links should be examined before launch for fractures.
> 6) Keep a supply of spare strops/weak links at both ends of the cable (=
Winch
> & Launch point)
> 7) Make sure you have a table easily available of what weak link to use=
for
> each glider type

8) To the winchdriver: When there is a stop-command with the plane still
on ground-> stop
When there is a stop-command or something else (problems with the cable,
motor etc.) keep on. Try to bring them at least to 350ft.

9) Make sure the enginetemperature is ok before the first launch.

Best regards

Bernhard

[Martin Gregorie]

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 04:07:41 +0000 (UTC), "Stephen Haley"
> wrote:

>So far very few have emphasised the safety aspects of winching
>
>Ground operations
>1) Keep everyone well clear of winch cables at all times
>2) Never allow anyone to cross winch cables
>3) Only pick up the next winch cable after the previous has been completely
>drawn in
>4) Never allow aero takeoffs over the cables (A plane went in at a UK club
>after getting tangled up in the cables.)
>5) Never allow open wheel landings across cables.
>6) Retrieve vehicles should never cross the cables and gliders should only
>land across them in extremis preferably with breaks off
>7) Weak link should be shown to PIC immediately before launch
>8) Mark the end of the cables with a bollard - this helps everyone to
>clearly see where the cables are and also gives an aiming point when towing
>out.
>9) Field should be clear for emmegency landing in event of break before
>permission to launch is given.
>
(10) the winch must have a signal (rotating flashing yellow light on
ours) that is automatically on when the winch is in gear.

(11) people must not touch a cable while the winch is in gear.

(12) anybody near but not in the winch must be inside a vehicle during
a launch. The vehicle should be within a 45 degree cone behind the
winch and not closer than 10 m.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :