Landout Laws

[Charles Petersen]

We had two landouts at Seminole yesterday, both in the same field, - a
pasture with cattle and a locked gate. One of the pilots visited a nearby
farmhouse, and spoke with the wife of the property owner asking permission
to enter and a key. She was very nice and called her son. He agreed to
call back on the pilots cell phone. The Sheriff was also called and did not
call back. An hour later, with both trailers at the gate, we called the
Sheriff again and advised that we intended to cut a link in the chain, and
replace it with a padlock when we left, and mail the key to the owner. This
would leave his field secure, and there was no damage. The Sheriff's office
made it clear they were not giving permission, and the retrieve crew made it
clear they were not asking for permission, merely advising the Sheriff of
their intentions, citing the approaching sunset and $220,000 of aircraft in
a field with cattle. A bolt cutter gave entry, and we commenced derigging,
leaving our most charming crew member at the gate. Both the son of the
owner and the Sheriff arrived. The son was extremely upset, insisting that
charges be laid. The Sheriff, seemingly somewhat reluctantly, fingerprinted
both pilots and wrote up a proposal for charges, which he said would be
presented to the public attorney to decide whether to proceed. Nothing
further has been heard, and we hope / believe nothing further will be heard.

My question is: - what is the law governing a landout on private property?
What are the rights of the pilot and of the property owner? Where are these
rights codified? The Sheriff said if we had done the same thing after he
arrived, he would not have laid charges. He did not charge the retrieve
crew with breaking and entering or trespassing. What about the crew
situation?

BTW, all concerned did act as 'ambassadors of the sport', but the son was
implacable.

[Shawn Curry]

Charles Petersen wrote:

> We had two landouts at Seminole yesterday, both in the same field, - a
> pasture with cattle and a locked gate. One of the pilots visited a nearby
> farmhouse, and spoke with the wife of the property owner asking permission
> to enter and a key. She was very nice and called her son. He agreed to
> call back on the pilots cell phone. The Sheriff was also called and did not
> call back. An hour later, with both trailers at the gate, we called the
> Sheriff again and advised that we intended to cut a link in the chain, and
> replace it with a padlock when we left, and mail the key to the owner. This
> would leave his field secure, and there was no damage. The Sheriff's office
> made it clear they were not giving permission, and the retrieve crew made it
> clear they were not asking for permission, merely advising the Sheriff of
> their intentions, citing the approaching sunset and $220,000 of aircraft in
> a field with cattle. A bolt cutter gave entry, and we commenced derigging,
> leaving our most charming crew member at the gate. Both the son of the
> owner and the Sheriff arrived. The son was extremely upset, insisting that
> charges be laid. The Sheriff, seemingly somewhat reluctantly, fingerprinted
> both pilots and wrote up a proposal for charges, which he said would be
> presented to the public attorney to decide whether to proceed. Nothing
> further has been heard, and we hope / believe nothing further will be heard.
>
> My question is: - what is the law governing a landout on private property?
> What are the rights of the pilot and of the property owner? Where are these
> rights codified? The Sheriff said if we had done the same thing after he
> arrived, he would not have laid charges. He did not charge the retrieve
> crew with breaking and entering or trespassing. What about the crew
> situation?
>
> BTW, all concerned did act as 'ambassadors of the sport', but the son was
> implacable.
>
>
I read that if the owner doesn't want to grant access, they are still
responsible for the safety of your property on their land (i.e. the
gliders). I don't know if this is true everywhere (anywhere?) in the
U.S., but unless you land on a lawyers farm, it might be a good thing to
bring up to lube the gate lock.
"O.K., we'll straighten this out some other time while you take good
care of my $75k aircraft that is serving as a salt lick. Sorry about
the inconvenience."

Cheers,
Shawn

[Bob Kuykendall]

Earlier, "Charles Petersen" > wrote:

> ...BTW, all concerned did act as
> 'ambassadors of the sport', but
> the son was implacable.

In my experience, the most effective things for landouts are:

* Make it clear that the landing was unintentional, and the field was
chosen as a best last resort. Be visibly relieved that their field was
available so that you didn't have to crash.

* If they are anything but happy to have you there, offer them about
$100 in cash per glider in exchange for any "damages" even if you
landed in weeds, fallow, pasture, or plowed. That usually cheers them
up at least a little. That's worked great for the two ag field
retrieves I've worked. If you don't have $100 cash, or couldn't stand
to part with it if you did, you probably shouldn't be flying
cross-country.

* If they demand more, give them contact info for your glider
insurance company and explain that the agricultural claims inspectors
will have to look into it. They will often just take the hundred bucks
rather than mess with the claims paperwork. But if you've landed in a
row crop or something like, you can be fairly certain that you _have_
made a dent in their bottom line, and you should be prepared to take
financial responsibility for the risks inherent in cross-country
soaring.

* When they do get really irate, go ahead and call the sheriff or
local law. You can't be exactly sure what the officer will do or whose
side they're on, but at least you can be relatively certain they'll
know that intentionally damaging an aircraft is a federal offense, and
they probably won't let anybody get hurt.

Other, more experienced, outlanders doubless have additional advice.

Thanks, and best regards

Bob K.

[BGMIFF]

I am a farmer and pilot, I work with all the Mifflin contests, and have had
a few dealings with irrate farmers before. Most of them are just jealous,
and I hate jealous people. One even had the nerve to tell my father, who we
sent along on the retrieve to smoothe over this irrate farmer, that if he
can afford to fly that thing, he can afford to pay me 500 to get it out of
the field. That is not the point. The point is, if we start setting a
precedent of paying to smoothe people over, even if nothing is damaged, then
afterwhile we will have no where that any of us can AFFORD to land out. I
think it is the right thing to do to pay when something is damaged, but not
in a cow pasture!! Nothing can get damaged there. My family owns a farm
within the traffic pattern at Mifflin, if enough of you land out there, I
will fire up the grill and we can have a cook out. To paraphrase my point
here, be ambassadors for the sport, but don't be pushovers. After about 5
minutes with some guy in a field, you should be able to figure out if he
belongs to the human race, or is just some SOB trying to milk you for
money!!

Brian Glick

"Bob Kuykendall" > wrote in message
m...
> Earlier, "Charles Petersen" > wrote:
>
> > ...BTW, all concerned did act as
> > 'ambassadors of the sport', but
> > the son was implacable.
>
> In my experience, the most effective things for landouts are:
>
> * Make it clear that the landing was unintentional, and the field was
> chosen as a best last resort. Be visibly relieved that their field was
> available so that you didn't have to crash.
>
> * If they are anything but happy to have you there, offer them about
> $100 in cash per glider in exchange for any "damages" even if you
> landed in weeds, fallow, pasture, or plowed. That usually cheers them
> up at least a little. That's worked great for the two ag field
> retrieves I've worked. If you don't have $100 cash, or couldn't stand
> to part with it if you did, you probably shouldn't be flying
> cross-country.
>
> * If they demand more, give them contact info for your glider
> insurance company and explain that the agricultural claims inspectors
> will have to look into it. They will often just take the hundred bucks
> rather than mess with the claims paperwork. But if you've landed in a
> row crop or something like, you can be fairly certain that you _have_
> made a dent in their bottom line, and you should be prepared to take
> financial responsibility for the risks inherent in cross-country
> soaring.
>
> * When they do get really irate, go ahead and call the sheriff or
> local law. You can't be exactly sure what the officer will do or whose
> side they're on, but at least you can be relatively certain they'll
> know that intentionally damaging an aircraft is a federal offense, and
> they probably won't let anybody get hurt.
>
> Other, more experienced, outlanders doubless have additional advice.
>
> Thanks, and best regards
>
> Bob K.

[JJ Sinclair]

Hi Chuck,
Been there, done that. I once had the gate to an oil rig, half disassembled
when a company man showed up. I quickly said, "If you'll unlock this gate, I'll
be glad to put it back together for you". It doesn't take a rocket scientest to
see who's going to win in your situation. It's his property and you are
trespassing.

A friend and I once started a final glide without sufficient altitude, he went
left around a knob and I went right. He didn't come out on the other side. Had
no time to worry about him as I had a developing problem of my own. Flew on
down this canyon and soon found myself at 80 knots and about 5 feet, over the
sagebrush. I knew Air Sailing was close, but I couldn't spot it (can't see to
far from 5 feet) Then I spotted a camper and figured it must be located at the
airport. Exchanged my 80 knots for about 100 feet and found myself lined up
with the cross-wind runway. I'll take luck over skill, any day.

What's this got to do with landing in a farmers field? My friend called in to
say he had landed in a pasture way up the canyon and would we bring lots of
help. We all went up there and found the farmer quite irate. He refused to
allow the trailer to come on his property. Made us carry the assembled glider
about a mile to the edge of his property. The guy was sending a message to us
folks at Air Sailing, "I live up here because I'm a hermit and I don't want any
GD gliders on my property". That's his right, we ARE trespassing. The same
farmer later held two pilots at gun-point for hours untill the Sheriff showed
up. We finally got the message.

Bolt cutters? That could be construed as burglary tools (I carry a hack saw,
less obvious) Hang in there, It'll be OK, but remember this next time.
JJ Sinclair

[Chris OCallaghan]

I have absolutely no legal training, but I landed in a ciruit court
judge's field once. He wasn't happy, but over time we managed to cool
off and talk about the particulars. Here's what came out of the
conversation:

When you land in a field, you are trespassing, and you should conduct
yourself as such.

The owner, can, in theory, order you off his property. If he forces
you to leave your sailplane behind, he becomes liable for its safe
keeping.

The law is your friend. If things get out of hand, recommend that he
call the authorities, or call them yourself. They don't want to do any
paperwork unless there is obvious damage. They will usually calm the
farmer down and expedite your retrieve.

Since you have already done damage to his property (by landing on it),
don't exacerbate the situation by causing more. Cutting a gate chain
or lock is tantamount to breaking into his place of work. How would
you feel if someone knocked down the door to your business, then put
up a new one with a note saying the key is in the mail? (I've faced
the same dilemma and chosen the path of breaking and entering. Just be
clear that there's NO justification for your actions, certainly not
from the point of view of the property owner. It is very possible you
may expose him to more financial risk by your actions than the value
of your $100K glider. You are jeopardizing his income for the sake of
your overpriced plastic toy.)

Never offer money to placate the farmer. Yes, it is convenient for
difusing an otherwise uncomfortable situation, but it sets an
undesirable precedent and puts both you and the farmer on questionable
legal ground. From your point of view, it is an admission of fault...
and who knows what fault the farmer may find after you leave. Don't
bring up the subject yourself. Let the farmer ask for money. Inform
him that you are insured for any damage you do and you are happy to
give him your insurance information. (We discussed whether asking for
money constituted running an unauthorized landing strip... I used this
notion once to answer such a demand. I then offered my insurance
information. It worked. The farmer wasn't happy, but at least he had
improved to "politely annoyed" by the time I left. He never followed
up with my insurance company.)

Reimbursing him for services offered is another matter entirely. If he
wants to use a tractor to fetch the glider, or prefers using his 4x4,
or wants one of his farmhands to oversee the retrieve, then it is OK
to offer a reasonable fee in exchange.

Never forget who the uninvited guest is. You've called him away from
his work. This has a measurable impact on his business. You may have
damaged his land, property, or livestock. You are, in his opinion, a
dilettante, serving no valuable function in the world. (If you don't
understand why, put yourself in his shoes, and get real.) Swallow the
farmer's antipathy with polite patience. After all, you deserve it.
And remember what your objective is: to get your glider home in one
piece... and hopefully leave an impression that will improve
conditions for the next sailplane pilot who lands there.

[Quebec Tango]

I had the opportunity to visit Seminole for the first time a few weeks ago -
and had a very good time. Ingrid and Knut made me feel very welcome, and it
was also a very welcome break from the miserable PA winter. I look forward
to returning often.

Every gliderport seems to have a few known fields where the owners are
unfriendly. Invariably it seems to be the result of the owner having been
treated poorly at some time in the past (even if no damage was done, just
not respecting the fact that you are a guest on their land and asking
permission to do anything is at the very least rude and disrespectful of
their ownership rights).

During my stay at Seminole, I had the opportunity to meet a number of
farmers/landowners :-/ One story that emerged consistently from them is
having been treated poorly by the hang-glider crowd (I understand that there
is quite a lot of hang-glider activity near Seminole). This ran the gamut
from rudeness to minor property damage to broken fences and loose livestock.
No one sees a difference between a hang glider and a sailplane.

I don't know that this problem reflects the current behavior of the
hang-glider crowd - and once the damage is done it doesn't matter. But be
aware that you may inherit the sins not only of your sibling but also of
your distant cousin when you land out, and need to repair relations you
didn't break. Also remember when flying in a new location to get as part of
your field check any info on the known problem landowners.
--
John Godfrey (QT)
SSA State Governor PA Region 3

"Charles Petersen" > wrote in message
...
> We had two landouts at Seminole yesterday, both in the same field, - a
> pasture with cattle and a locked gate. One of the pilots visited a nearby
> farmhouse, and spoke with the wife of the property owner asking permission
> to enter and a key. She was very nice and called her son. He agreed to
> call back on the pilots cell phone. The Sheriff was also called and did
not
> call back. An hour later, with both trailers at the gate, we called the
> Sheriff again and advised that we intended to cut a link in the chain, and
> replace it with a padlock when we left, and mail the key to the owner.
This
> would leave his field secure, and there was no damage. The Sheriff's
office
> made it clear they were not giving permission, and the retrieve crew made
it
> clear they were not asking for permission, merely advising the Sheriff of
> their intentions, citing the approaching sunset and $220,000 of aircraft
in
> a field with cattle. A bolt cutter gave entry, and we commenced
derigging,
> leaving our most charming crew member at the gate. Both the son of the
> owner and the Sheriff arrived. The son was extremely upset, insisting
that
> charges be laid. The Sheriff, seemingly somewhat reluctantly,
fingerprinted
> both pilots and wrote up a proposal for charges, which he said would be
> presented to the public attorney to decide whether to proceed. Nothing
> further has been heard, and we hope / believe nothing further will be
heard.
>
> My question is: - what is the law governing a landout on private property?
> What are the rights of the pilot and of the property owner? Where are
these
> rights codified? The Sheriff said if we had done the same thing after he
> arrived, he would not have laid charges. He did not charge the retrieve
> crew with breaking and entering or trespassing. What about the crew
> situation?
>
> BTW, all concerned did act as 'ambassadors of the sport', but the son was
> implacable.
>
>

[Mark James Boyd]

Shawn Curry > wrote:
>> My question is: - what is the law governing a landout on private property?
Same as always. Who has more guns. (If you have a radio or cell
phone, and can call people to come with guns, this is good too).
Bow and arrow can be used in extreme duress...

>> What are the rights of the pilot and of the property owner?
Ever see "Deliverance" or "Pulp Fiction"? I'd suggest soaring over
Ohio or North Dakota, and not so much over
parts of Louisiana or Humboldt County...

Any of you pilots who think you can land anywhere you like
and have it always turn out fine, boy you must know something
I don't...I'm sticken' with known "friendly" landout spots...

[Kilo Charlie]

I've been flying something for 34 years. That has included powered,
gliders, ultralights, paragliders and hang gliders. I would say that
assigning the blame for problems with landowners solely to the pilot of
whatever type of aircraft is involved is inappropriate without knowing the
circumstances involved in each case.

I have over 50 outlandings in gliders and several hundred in hang gliders.
I have been nothing but humble and gracious with landowners but have had a
few cases of irrate people no matter what I did or say to calm them down. I
have flown at Wallaby (one of the hang glider operations near Seminole) and
have visited, but not flown at Seminole. There are jerks in every facet of
aviation and in my experience no one group can say that they are better
ambassadors than another.

By virtue of the lesser performance of hang gliders they land out much more
often than sailplanes and that may be one reason that some landowners simply
get tired of seeing them especially those on the downwind side of the towing
operations.

The initial poster did the best he could and I would have probably have done
the same. There are just going to be some days that the bear gets you.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

[Chip Bearden]

With all due respect to those who've already paid, I don't agree with
offering $100 for several reasons:

1) In the context described, it's an admission of liability for
whatever damages the owner may decide (now or after you've departed)
that you--or the hordes of spectators who run/drive out into the field
to see the "glider crash"--have inflicted.

2) It invites a counteroffer/demand: e.g., "Gee, if this rich pilot is
offering $100, I can probably get $500 out of him."

3) It guarantees that the NEXT guy to land in your field will be hit
with a substantial demand.

I've landed out about 100 times over the past 35 years and only had a
few sticky situations. I like to think it's because I really try hard
to treat the owners like human beings rather than ignorant peasants.
Witnessing some of our crowd trying to communicate with local land
owners is like watching someone speaking loudly to a blind person on
the mistaken assumption that he/she is either deaf or stupid.

Be that as it may, I've had my troubles. One bad case was an irascible
owner about whom I was warned by the locals just before he drove up in
his Cadillac. I went through the whole "I didn't have any choice, I'm
just glad your field was here, I touched down between the rows [of 6"
high beans] to prevent any damage, my primary concern is keeping
spectators out of the field so they won't damage anything [this is a
real issue and also resonates well with the owner as it says two
things: you know what you're talking about, and you two are on the
same side], thank you so much for your hospitality, etc."

The owner walked back to the car, reached in for a clipboard, and
shoved it at me, demanding that I supply my name, address, etc.
Diplomacy wasn't working so I walked over to the cockpit, got my own
clipboard and one of my turnpoint cameras and politely but firmly
asked the farmer for HIS data, as well, explaining that I obviously
hadn't done any damage so far, that my crew and I would de-rig and
carry out the pieces to avoid any damage, and (importantly) that I
would take photos from all four directions both before and after the
glider was moved to establish to my insurance company that there
wasn't any damage. Oh, and by the way, I planned to ask these nice
fellows standing around us to sign a statement attesting to the lack
of damage. I gave him my name, insurance contact, etc., but never
heard a word.

The only other sticky experience was when I had the misfortune to land
in a beautiful hay field in Maryland...precisely one year after the
previous GLIDER pilot had landed, driven over the hay to get his
glider, and vanished before the farmer could find out who had done the
damage. The injured farmer had been waiting one year to vent his anger
and extract revenge!

It took me almost an hour to talk him down and leave him reasonably
mollified. If I could have gotten my hands around the throat of the
idiot who'd caused the whole thing a year earlier, I'd have done what
the farmer originally wanted to do to him myself.

My advice: If you've really damaged the crop, apologize for the
situation without admitting or promising too much (yes, it's your
fault, but don't encourage the owner to think he's hit the lottery).
Give the owner your insurance information and reassure him; that's
what insurance is for, it doesn't happen very often, you've never had
a claim, etc.

And be nice. I can't emphasize this enough. Be nice and just keep
talking. Put yourself in this person's shoes and commiserate. And
although first impressions count for a lot (i.e., the first person the
owner encounters is you), having a crewperson arrive who is equally
skilled in conversation (and/or who is an attractive female) also
helps. Having a couple of cute kids pop out of the retrieve vehicle
and exclaim over the cows helps even more, for yet another reason why
you should get your family involved in soaring. :)

If you haven't damaged anything, be nice but try to avoid bending to
extortion demands. I'm not a lawyer but my impression is that if the
farmer refuses to let you secure your glider, he assumes liability if
anything should occur. Most officers of the law are likely to be
helpful in this regard even if they're friendly with the owner. If it
starts to get tense, insisting on calling the local police/sheriff
often helps cool things down; the irate owner usually doesn't expect
the trespasser to call the police.

Having said all of this, I'll admit that I have occasionally paid
small amounts of cash as we're packing up to leave, mostly in
compensation for the tractor that pulled the glider out of the field,
etc. But I always ask if I can make a contribution to the owner's
church instead of offering him the money directly. I've never had
anyone look offended or fail to smile genuinely, shake my hand, and
thank me. And I think all of my contributions have found their way
into the offering plate on Sunday, making the whole experience a
win-win for everyone.

These days, offer to take the owner's picture with the glider using
your digital camera and email him the photo. If he's a good guy, he
will appreciate it. If he's threatening, the mere mention of
photographic evidence might encourage him to be more cooperative. :)

Just my opinion. Every situation is different. Remain calm even if the
owner isn't acting rationally. Sometimes the best solution is to just
keep smiling, keep soothing, and wait it out. Just because you can
afford to fly doesn't give an opportunistic field owner the right to a
transfer payment from your wallet to his.

And keep thinking about the pilot who's going to land in the same
field next year. Try to make sure he gets a nice reception, because it
could be me.

Chip Bearden

> * Make it clear that the landing was unintentional, and the field was
> chosen as a best last resort. Be visibly relieved that their field was
> available so that you didn't have to crash.
>
> * If they are anything but happy to have you there, offer them about
> $100 in cash per glider in exchange for any "damages" even if you
> landed in weeds, fallow, pasture, or plowed. That usually cheers them
> up at least a little. That's worked great for the two ag field
> retrieves I've worked. If you don't have $100 cash, or couldn't stand
> to part with it if you did, you probably shouldn't be flying
> cross-country.

[Vaughn]

"Chip Bearden" > wrote in message
om...
>
> (trimmed for bandwidth but great stuff)
>
> Just my opinion. Every situation is different. Remain calm even if the
> owner isn't acting rationally. Sometimes the best solution is to just
> keep smiling, keep soothing, and wait it out. Just because you can
> afford to fly doesn't give an opportunistic field owner the right to a
> transfer payment from your wallet to his.
>
> And keep thinking about the pilot who's going to land in the same
> field next year. Try to make sure he gets a nice reception, because it
> could be me.
>
> Chip Bearden

This is one of the best posts I have ever seen here on ras. With a
little fleshing out and a photo or two, it would make a great article in
SOARING.

Vaughn

[Eric Greenwell]

Vaughn wrote:

> "Chip Bearden" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>(trimmed for bandwidth but great stuff)
>>
>>Just my opinion. Every situation is different. Remain calm even if the
>>owner isn't acting rationally. Sometimes the best solution is to just
>>keep smiling, keep soothing, and wait it out. Just because you can
>>afford to fly doesn't give an opportunistic field owner the right to a
>>transfer payment from your wallet to his.
>>
>>And keep thinking about the pilot who's going to land in the same
>>field next year. Try to make sure he gets a nice reception, because it
>>could be me.
>>
>>Chip Bearden
>
>
> This is one of the best posts I have ever seen here on ras. With a
> little fleshing out and a photo or two, it would make a great article in
> SOARING.

I agree. I read everything Chip writes. His posting on "pilot relief
devices" a few years ago is still one the RAS Top 10 Postings (make that
one of the Top 5).
--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Ray Lovinggood]

At 03:36 15 February 2004, Chip Bearden wrote:
>If you haven't damaged anything, be nice but try to
>avoid bending to
>extortion demands. I'm not a lawyer but my impression
>is that if the
>farmer refuses to let you secure your glider, he assumes
>liability if
>anything should occur. Most officers of the law are
>likely to be
>helpful in this regard even if they're friendly with
>the owner. If it
>starts to get tense, insisting on calling the local
>police/sheriff
>often helps cool things down; the irate owner usually
>doesn't expect
>the trespasser to call the police.

A couple of years ago, I landed out while flying from
the Blue Ridge Soaring Society's field in New Castle,
VA. While I was only seven miles or so from the airfield,
the owner of the field I landed in wasn't very pleased.
In my case, there was no need to call for law enforcement
because I landed in the field owned by the County Sheriff.
When I approached the house nearest to the field,
I noticed a sheriff's car in the driveway. Was the
sheriff there on business? No, he lived there. As
the door opened, it's opening was filled with a big
man in a clean, pressed with razor-sharp creases, uniform.
Oh yes, there was a BIG gun in the holster around
his hips. Oh boy.

He was a bit miffed. He explained while motioning
with his hands, 'I've had gliders land in this field
and I've had gliders land in that field, BUT I'VE NEVER
HAD A GLIDER LAND IN MY HAY FIELD.' Gulp. He continued,
'But, it is the smoothest field.' I didn't say anything.

He didn't ask for anything and he didn't get ugly.
He just told me to drive the retrieve car as close
to the fence inside the field as possible and don't
drive right down through the hay. The time of year
was early May and the 'orchard grass' hay was about
a foot high.

I tried my best at 'Land-Out Diplomacy' and I hope
the next time someone (it could be me) lands in that
same hay field, the Sheriff will be understanding.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

[Ted Wagner]

I agree with Vaughn, this thread had me paying close attention.

I haven't started my x-country career yet, but in the limited reading I've done, the legality aspect was hardly addressed. I had thought that pilots had some legal right to land on private property, for safety's sake, much like people on the ground have a basic right of access through another's private property if that's the only reasonable way to get there.

-tw

[Charles Petersen]

There have been a lot of responses to my original post, but very little
addressing the legalities.

I was shooting some clay birds with a lawyer yesterday, and I asked him
about the applicable law. He knows nothing about aviation law, and the
matter
of rights to make a forced landing, but he could comment on the trespass.
He said that there are two kinds of trespass,
criminal and civil. In this instance, as evidenced by the call to the
Sheriff,
there was no criminal intent, and hence there was no
criminal trespass. However, as we broke the chain, there is a case for
civil trespass. For this, the land owner is entitled to be compensated for
his "damages". As it was pasture, there was no crop damage. He suffered
only
the loss of one link in a three foot chain, and his time.

It was legal information I was looking for, and the trespass issue seems
fairly simple.
I am still looking for information on the legalities of the forced landing,
but the courtesy
advice is well taken by all of us who fly X/C.


"Charles Petersen" > wrote in message
...
> We had two landouts at Seminole yesterday, both in the same field, - a
> pasture with cattle and a locked gate. One of the pilots visited a nearby
> farmhouse, and spoke with the wife of the property owner asking permission
> to enter and a key. She was very nice and called her son. He agreed to
> call back on the pilots cell phone. The Sheriff was also called and did
not
> call back. An hour later, with both trailers at the gate, we called the
> Sheriff again and advised that we intended to cut a link in the chain, and
> replace it with a padlock when we left, and mail the key to the owner.
This
> would leave his field secure, and there was no damage. The Sheriff's
office
> made it clear they were not giving permission, and the retrieve crew made
it
> clear they were not asking for permission, merely advising the Sheriff of
> their intentions, citing the approaching sunset and $220,000 of aircraft
in
> a field with cattle. A bolt cutter gave entry, and we commenced
derigging,
> leaving our most charming crew member at the gate. Both the son of the
> owner and the Sheriff arrived. The son was extremely upset, insisting
that
> charges be laid. The Sheriff, seemingly somewhat reluctantly,
fingerprinted
> both pilots and wrote up a proposal for charges, which he said would be
> presented to the public attorney to decide whether to proceed. Nothing
> further has been heard, and we hope / believe nothing further will be
heard.
>
> My question is: - what is the law governing a landout on private property?
> What are the rights of the pilot and of the property owner? Where are
these
> rights codified? The Sheriff said if we had done the same thing after he
> arrived, he would not have laid charges. He did not charge the retrieve
> crew with breaking and entering or trespassing. What about the crew
> situation?
>
> BTW, all concerned did act as 'ambassadors of the sport', but the son was
> implacable.
>
>

[Nyal Williams]

At 17:30 15 February 2004, Charles Petersen wrote:
>There have been a lot of responses to my original post,
>but very little
>addressing the legalities.

I fly in central Indiana and we have had some landouts
in mostly farming country with few problems.

This could be an urban myth -- but it is possibly true;
I have heard that Indiana has a law on the books
that says it is illegal to land an airplane anywhere
except on an airport. Scuttlebutt was that the law
was enacted back when engines were not very reliable
and farmers kept getting crops destroyed.

The farmers have been mostly cooperative. I'm sure
that the FAA's distinction between an airplane and
a glider would not make any difference in a legal decision
in this state on this matter.

[Bill Daniels]

"Nyal Williams" > wrote in message
...
> At 17:30 15 February 2004, Charles Petersen wrote:
> >There have been a lot of responses to my original post,
> >but very little
> >addressing the legalities.
>
> I fly in central Indiana and we have had some landouts
> in mostly farming country with few problems.
>
> This could be an urban myth -- but it is possibly true;
> I have heard that Indiana has a law on the books
> that says it is illegal to land an airplane anywhere
> except on an airport. Scuttlebutt was that the law
> was enacted back when engines were not very reliable
> and farmers kept getting crops destroyed.
>
> The farmers have been mostly cooperative. I'm sure
> that the FAA's distinction between an airplane and
> a glider would not make any difference in a legal decision
> in this state on this matter.
>
I suspect that most of the "problems" have been in areas with higher
population densities. In the vast, largely unpopulated, western USA, a lot
of the land is federal with ranchers leasing it to run cattle. That which
is in private hands is often operated by hired hands for the absentee
landowner. In some cases, the land is part of a railroad land grant dating
from the construction of the transcontinental railroad and farmed by leasee
who is in turn an absentee landlord. If approached by someone representing
himself as the landowner, try in a polite way to insure that this person is,
in fact, the landowner and not someone trying to grab a fast buck.

Most often, the glider is in the trailer and crew and pilot ready to depart
with no locals having made an appearance. In this case, the legal and
proper thing would probably to contact the local sheriff and report the
"emergency landing" and provide contact information along with the exact
Lat/long of the landing point although some would, no doubt, choose to
quietly depart.

In the few cases where I have had the pleasure of meeting the landowner, I
have been impressed by the hospitality. The only "problem" was a Nebraska
farm wife who wanted to delay our departure because, I suspect, she just
wanted someone to talk to since she didn't get to town all that often.

Bill Daniels

[Nyal Williams]

At 19:18 15 February 2004, Bill Daniels wrote:
>
>'Nyal Williams' wrote in message
...
>> At 17:30 15 February 2004, Charles Petersen wrote:
>> >There have been a lot of responses to my original
>>>post,
>> >but very little
>> >addressing the legalities.
>>
>> I fly in central Indiana and we have had some landouts
>> in mostly farming country with few problems.
>>
>> This could be an urban myth -- but it is possibly
>>true;
>> I have heard that Indiana has a law on the books
>> that says it is illegal to land an airplane anywhere
>> except on an airport. Scuttlebutt was that the law
>> was enacted back when engines were not very reliable
>> and farmers kept getting crops destroyed.
>>
>> The farmers have been mostly cooperative. I'm sure
>> that the FAA's distinction between an airplane and
>> a glider would not make any difference in a legal
>>decision
>> in this state on this matter.
>>
>I suspect that most of the 'problems' have been in
>areas with higher
>population densities. In the vast, largely unpopulated,
>western USA, a lot
>of the land is federal with ranchers leasing it to
>run cattle. That which
>is in private hands is often operated by hired hands
>for the absentee
>landowner. In some cases, the land is part of a railroad
>land grant dating
>from the construction of the transcontinental railroad
>and farmed by leasee
>who is in turn an absentee landlord. If approached
>by someone representing
>himself as the landowner, try in a polite way to insure
>that this person is,
>in fact, the landowner and not someone trying to grab
>a fast buck.
>
>Most often, the glider is in the trailer and crew and
>pilot ready to depart
>with no locals having made an appearance. In this
>case, the legal and
>proper thing would probably to contact the local sheriff
>and report the
>'emergency landing' and provide contact information
>along with the exact
>Lat/long of the landing point although some would,
>no doubt, choose to
>quietly depart.
>
>In the few cases where I have had the pleasure of meeting
>the landowner, I
>have been impressed by the hospitality. The only 'problem'
>was a Nebraska
>farm wife who wanted to delay our departure because,
>I suspect, she just
>wanted someone to talk to since she didn't get to town
>all that often.
>
>Bill Daniels >
>
It helps to be on friendly terms with someone in agribusiness.
As a protection before starting the season, know
in general how much gross income 1 acre is expected
to generate for several of the local crops, and keep
these figures quietly in mind.

[Thomas Knauff]

I'm not a lawyer, however, as I understand it, an off field landing comes
under the heading of, "Any port in a storm maritime law."

It is the same law permitting one to break into a cabin for survival
purposes rather than die of exposure.

You are still liable for damages, but can not be held for "Trespass."

In case of a dispute, your best friend is the police, 2nd your insurance
company.


--
Thomas Knauff
Knauff & Grove, Inc.
Schempp-Hirth Sailplanes
3523 South Eagle Valley Road
Julian, Pa 16844
Phone (814) 355 2483
Fax (814) 355 2633
www.eglider.org


"Nyal Williams" > wrote in message
...
> At 19:18 15 February 2004, Bill Daniels wrote:
> >
> >'Nyal Williams' wrote in message
> ...
> >> At 17:30 15 February 2004, Charles Petersen wrote:
> >> >There have been a lot of responses to my original
> >>>post,
> >> >but very little
> >> >addressing the legalities.
> >>
> >> I fly in central Indiana and we have had some landouts
> >> in mostly farming country with few problems.
> >>
> >> This could be an urban myth -- but it is possibly
> >>true;
> >> I have heard that Indiana has a law on the books
> >> that says it is illegal to land an airplane anywhere
> >> except on an airport. Scuttlebutt was that the law
> >> was enacted back when engines were not very reliable
> >> and farmers kept getting crops destroyed.
> >>
> >> The farmers have been mostly cooperative. I'm sure
> >> that the FAA's distinction between an airplane and
> >> a glider would not make any difference in a legal
> >>decision
> >> in this state on this matter.
> >>
> >I suspect that most of the 'problems' have been in
> >areas with higher
> >population densities. In the vast, largely unpopulated,
> >western USA, a lot
> >of the land is federal with ranchers leasing it to
> >run cattle. That which
> >is in private hands is often operated by hired hands
> >for the absentee
> >landowner. In some cases, the land is part of a railroad
> >land grant dating
> >from the construction of the transcontinental railroad
> >and farmed by leasee
> >who is in turn an absentee landlord. If approached
> >by someone representing
> >himself as the landowner, try in a polite way to insure
> >that this person is,
> >in fact, the landowner and not someone trying to grab
> >a fast buck.
> >
> >Most often, the glider is in the trailer and crew and
> >pilot ready to depart
> >with no locals having made an appearance. In this
> >case, the legal and
> >proper thing would probably to contact the local sheriff
> >and report the
> >'emergency landing' and provide contact information
> >along with the exact
> >Lat/long of the landing point although some would,
> >no doubt, choose to
> >quietly depart.
> >
> >In the few cases where I have had the pleasure of meeting
> >the landowner, I
> >have been impressed by the hospitality. The only 'problem'
> >was a Nebraska
> >farm wife who wanted to delay our departure because,
> >I suspect, she just
> >wanted someone to talk to since she didn't get to town
> >all that often.
> >
> >Bill Daniels >
> >
> It helps to be on friendly terms with someone in agribusiness.
> As a protection before starting the season, know
> in general how much gross income 1 acre is expected
> to generate for several of the local crops, and keep
> these figures quietly in mind.
>
>
>

[Steve Hopkins]

I think it is Cambridge GC in England that instituted
a fantastic land-out diplomatic policy. Pilots, landing
out, issued an invitation to the farmer and his wife
to the club's annual dinner dance. Not only did this
do wonders for public relations, I think they even
managed to snag a few new flying members. I heard a
wonderful tale of a local farmer telephoning the club
rather concerned that he was going to miss the annual
dinner dance. He added that he had kept the field mown
and had erected a wind sock but that nobody had landed
in his field that year!

[Greg Arnold]

One possibility is to carry a few business cards, and write on the back
"good for one free glider ride at xxxx", initial it, and give it to the
person whose field you landed in. Then be sure to tell the local glider
ride operation that you will pay if someone shows up with the card.


Steve Hopkins wrote:

> I think it is Cambridge GC in England that instituted
> a fantastic land-out diplomatic policy. Pilots, landing
> out, issued an invitation to the farmer and his wife
> to the club's annual dinner dance. Not only did this
> do wonders for public relations, I think they even
> managed to snag a few new flying members. I heard a
> wonderful tale of a local farmer telephoning the club
> rather concerned that he was going to miss the annual
> dinner dance. He added that he had kept the field mown
> and had erected a wind sock but that nobody had landed
> in his field that year!
>
>
>

[Eric Greenwell]

Nyal Williams wrote:

> It helps to be on friendly terms with someone in agribusiness.
> As a protection before starting the season, know
> in general how much gross income 1 acre is expected
> to generate for several of the local crops, and keep
> these figures quietly in mind.

I'm reminded of someone who landed out during a contest at Montague,
California, about 15 years ago. The farmer became obnoxious, demanded
something like $200, the pilot offered $50 compensation for what was
essentially no damage. The sheriff was called, and the next day all
assembled at field, including the glider, and a county agricultural
official. Said official estimated the damage to the crop, under the best
possible circumstances for the farmer, to be less than $25. Pilot again
offered $50; the farmer said "$200 or nothing", so nothing is what he
got. Pilot took glider and left.

--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Bruce Friesen]

Wonderful post. One wee addition.

A friend of mine swore by a wrinkle to the "offer to take the owner's
picture with the glider using

your digital camera and email him the photo" strategy. His idea was to get the farmer's youngest _kid_ in the cockpit, take a photo, and promise to send a copy. Instant enthusiastic friend and ally! Well worth the risk to his glider, he figured, to have someone ready to be disappointed should his/her father take a hard line with this extraordinary visitor.

Bruce


Chip Bearden wrote:

>With all due respect to those who've already paid, I don't agree with
>offering $100 for several reasons:
>
>1) In the context described, it's an admission of liability for
>whatever damages the owner may decide (now or after you've departed)
>that you--or the hordes of spectators who run/drive out into the field
>to see the "glider crash"--have inflicted.
>
>2) It invites a counteroffer/demand: e.g., "Gee, if this rich pilot is
>offering $100, I can probably get $500 out of him."
>
>3) It guarantees that the NEXT guy to land in your field will be hit
>with a substantial demand.
>
>I've landed out about 100 times over the past 35 years and only had a
>few sticky situations. I like to think it's because I really try hard
>to treat the owners like human beings rather than ignorant peasants.
>Witnessing some of our crowd trying to communicate with local land
>owners is like watching someone speaking loudly to a blind person on
>the mistaken assumption that he/she is either deaf or stupid.
>
>Be that as it may, I've had my troubles. One bad case was an irascible
>owner about whom I was warned by the locals just before he drove up in
>his Cadillac. I went through the whole "I didn't have any choice, I'm
>just glad your field was here, I touched down between the rows [of 6"
>high beans] to prevent any damage, my primary concern is keeping
>spectators out of the field so they won't damage anything [this is a
>real issue and also resonates well with the owner as it says two
>things: you know what you're talking about, and you two are on the
>same side], thank you so much for your hospitality, etc."
>
>The owner walked back to the car, reached in for a clipboard, and
>shoved it at me, demanding that I supply my name, address, etc.
>Diplomacy wasn't working so I walked over to the cockpit, got my own
>clipboard and one of my turnpoint cameras and politely but firmly
>asked the farmer for HIS data, as well, explaining that I obviously
>hadn't done any damage so far, that my crew and I would de-rig and
>carry out the pieces to avoid any damage, and (importantly) that I
>would take photos from all four directions both before and after the
>glider was moved to establish to my insurance company that there
>wasn't any damage. Oh, and by the way, I planned to ask these nice
>fellows standing around us to sign a statement attesting to the lack
>of damage. I gave him my name, insurance contact, etc., but never
>heard a word.
>
>The only other sticky experience was when I had the misfortune to land
>in a beautiful hay field in Maryland...precisely one year after the
>previous GLIDER pilot had landed, driven over the hay to get his
>glider, and vanished before the farmer could find out who had done the
>damage. The injured farmer had been waiting one year to vent his anger
>and extract revenge!
>
>It took me almost an hour to talk him down and leave him reasonably
>mollified. If I could have gotten my hands around the throat of the
>idiot who'd caused the whole thing a year earlier, I'd have done what
>the farmer originally wanted to do to him myself.
>
>My advice: If you've really damaged the crop, apologize for the
>situation without admitting or promising too much (yes, it's your
>fault, but don't encourage the owner to think he's hit the lottery).
>Give the owner your insurance information and reassure him; that's
>what insurance is for, it doesn't happen very often, you've never had
>a claim, etc.
>
>And be nice. I can't emphasize this enough. Be nice and just keep
>talking. Put yourself in this person's shoes and commiserate. And
>although first impressions count for a lot (i.e., the first person the
>owner encounters is you), having a crewperson arrive who is equally
>skilled in conversation (and/or who is an attractive female) also
>helps. Having a couple of cute kids pop out of the retrieve vehicle
>and exclaim over the cows helps even more, for yet another reason why
>you should get your family involved in soaring. :)
>
>If you haven't damaged anything, be nice but try to avoid bending to
>extortion demands. I'm not a lawyer but my impression is that if the
>farmer refuses to let you secure your glider, he assumes liability if
>anything should occur. Most officers of the law are likely to be
>helpful in this regard even if they're friendly with the owner. If it
>starts to get tense, insisting on calling the local police/sheriff
>often helps cool things down; the irate owner usually doesn't expect
>the trespasser to call the police.
>
>Having said all of this, I'll admit that I have occasionally paid
>small amounts of cash as we're packing up to leave, mostly in
>compensation for the tractor that pulled the glider out of the field,
>etc. But I always ask if I can make a contribution to the owner's
>church instead of offering him the money directly. I've never had
>anyone look offended or fail to smile genuinely, shake my hand, and
>thank me. And I think all of my contributions have found their way
>into the offering plate on Sunday, making the whole experience a
>win-win for everyone.
>
>These days, offer to take the owner's picture with the glider using
>your digital camera and email him the photo. If he's a good guy, he
>will appreciate it. If he's threatening, the mere mention of
>photographic evidence might encourage him to be more cooperative. :)
>
>Just my opinion. Every situation is different. Remain calm even if the
>owner isn't acting rationally. Sometimes the best solution is to just
>keep smiling, keep soothing, and wait it out. Just because you can
>afford to fly doesn't give an opportunistic field owner the right to a
>transfer payment from your wallet to his.
>
>And keep thinking about the pilot who's going to land in the same
>field next year. Try to make sure he gets a nice reception, because it
>could be me.
>
>Chip Bearden
>
>
>
>>* Make it clear that the landing was unintentional, and the field was
>>chosen as a best last resort. Be visibly relieved that their field was
>>available so that you didn't have to crash.
>>
>>* If they are anything but happy to have you there, offer them about
>>$100 in cash per glider in exchange for any "damages" even if you
>>landed in weeds, fallow, pasture, or plowed. That usually cheers them
>>up at least a little. That's worked great for the two ag field
>>retrieves I've worked. If you don't have $100 cash, or couldn't stand
>>to part with it if you did, you probably shouldn't be flying
>>cross-country.
>>
>>

[Birdy]

I'm a farmer and a pilot, but I don't fly gliders yet. When you all land in
a field, first of all get permission from the farmer to retrieve the
airplane . There is NOTHING that will make a farmer madder than someone
driving through his crops and fields. He can tell you how he wants you to
remove your glider with minium damage to the field and glider and will
likely pitch in to help if he is not busy. Also offer to pay damages, gross
per a. is about $500on corn, $350 soybeans, $300 wheat and some other crops
it can be much more. Tomatoes could be $5K/a. I don't think you would like
it if someone drove a truck through your yard and over your bushes, it's
about the same thing. Just treat the farmers with respect and take care of
any damage and you will be ok.


"Greg Arnold" > wrote in message
news:D2TXb.4247$hE.3741@fed1read07...
> One possibility is to carry a few business cards, and write on the back
> "good for one free glider ride at xxxx", initial it, and give it to the
> person whose field you landed in. Then be sure to tell the local glider
> ride operation that you will pay if someone shows up with the card.
>
>
> Steve Hopkins wrote:
>
> > I think it is Cambridge GC in England that instituted
> > a fantastic land-out diplomatic policy. Pilots, landing
> > out, issued an invitation to the farmer and his wife
> > to the club's annual dinner dance. Not only did this
> > do wonders for public relations, I think they even
> > managed to snag a few new flying members. I heard a
> > wonderful tale of a local farmer telephoning the club
> > rather concerned that he was going to miss the annual
> > dinner dance. He added that he had kept the field mown
> > and had erected a wind sock but that nobody had landed
> > in his field that year!
> >
> >
> >
>




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[mm]

Do you happen to know what the value of cotton is per acre?

Were I fly, most often the farmer/rancher is not on site, and I have not
even seen ownership info posted so that I could contact him later. In
situations like this, what should a pilot/crew do to minimize damage, and
reduce the chances of angering the farmer? Is cutting and then repairing a
chain link acceptable or not? If not what is the alternative?

Thank you,

"Birdy" > wrote in message
...
> I'm a farmer and a pilot, but I don't fly gliders yet. When you all land
in
> a field, first of all get permission from the farmer to retrieve the
> airplane . There is NOTHING that will make a farmer madder than someone
> driving through his crops and fields. He can tell you how he wants you to
> remove your glider with minium damage to the field and glider and will
> likely pitch in to help if he is not busy. Also offer to pay damages,
gross
> per a. is about $500on corn, $350 soybeans, $300 wheat and some other
crops
> it can be much more. Tomatoes could be $5K/a. I don't think you would like
> it if someone drove a truck through your yard and over your bushes, it's
> about the same thing. Just treat the farmers with respect and take care of
> any damage and you will be ok.
>
>
> "Greg Arnold" > wrote in message
> news:D2TXb.4247$hE.3741@fed1read07...
> > One possibility is to carry a few business cards, and write on the back
> > "good for one free glider ride at xxxx", initial it, and give it to the
> > person whose field you landed in. Then be sure to tell the local glider
> > ride operation that you will pay if someone shows up with the card.
> >
> >
> > Steve Hopkins wrote:
> >
> > > I think it is Cambridge GC in England that instituted
> > > a fantastic land-out diplomatic policy. Pilots, landing
> > > out, issued an invitation to the farmer and his wife
> > > to the club's annual dinner dance. Not only did this
> > > do wonders for public relations, I think they even
> > > managed to snag a few new flying members. I heard a
> > > wonderful tale of a local farmer telephoning the club
> > > rather concerned that he was going to miss the annual
> > > dinner dance. He added that he had kept the field mown
> > > and had erected a wind sock but that nobody had landed
> > > in his field that year!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

[JJ Sinclair]

Eric,
Was that Bruce L. that landed in Butte Valley? He said he had the farmer all
calmed down when another glider saw him in the field and decided to land there
also.
Bruce said there was just no controlling the farmer after that.

Out of Air Sailing, a pilot landed and walked up to the farm house to find a
note pinned to the front door. "I have gone to town, if you're here when I get
back, I'll shoot you".
Mean farmers in Nevada.
JJ Sinclair

[RWEpp]

All very good posts.... When dealing with a receptive landowner,every efffort
should be made to placate him (or her). The real problem arises when dealing
with someone who is totally intractable. At this point the best alternative is
to call the local authorities and let the legal system deal with the situation.
Regarding the situation in Florida, the landowner arrived at the site, demanded
that the sheriff issue a summons and and absolutely refushed to even talk to
pilots or crews.

[Chris OCallaghan]

You've received many responses, all offering good advice. Here's a
suggestion to get real info on legalities. If you are an AOPA member,
call them and make use of their member services, which include just
this type of legal assistance. If you are not a member, perhaps you
can convince an AOPA member to call and share with the group.

[Eric Greenwell]

JJ Sinclair wrote:
> Eric,
> Was that Bruce L. that landed in Butte Valley? He said he had the farmer all
> calmed down when another glider saw him in the field and decided to land there
> also.
> Bruce said there was just no controlling the farmer after that.

No, just one glider. As I remember it, the farmer wasn't angry, just
obnoxious. I very vaguely remember "Tom" as the pilot's name, and that
the Sheriff told Tom people around there didn't much like the farmer either.


--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Greg Arnold]

That means that the gross per square foot is typically 1 cent, but
sometimes as high as 10 cents. Say you damage 10' by 100'. That
typically would be $10, but might be $100. Not a lot of damage.


Birdy wrote:

> I'm a farmer and a pilot, but I don't fly gliders yet. When you all land in
> a field, first of all get permission from the farmer to retrieve the
> airplane . There is NOTHING that will make a farmer madder than someone
> driving through his crops and fields. He can tell you how he wants you to
> remove your glider with minium damage to the field and glider and will
> likely pitch in to help if he is not busy. Also offer to pay damages, gross
> per a. is about $500on corn, $350 soybeans, $300 wheat and some other crops
> it can be much more. Tomatoes could be $5K/a. I don't think you would like
> it if someone drove a truck through your yard and over your bushes, it's
> about the same thing. Just treat the farmers with respect and take care of
> any damage and you will be ok.
>
>

[Birdy]

I don't grow cotton, WAG is $1-2K/a. The farmer has a chain and lock there
for a reason and I would not cut it. If there are workers or houses near,
they should be able to tell you who owns it. You could also call the Farm
Services Agency of USDA, they have maps of every field in the US and can
tell you who farms them. A local crop duster pilot could also tell you who
farms it and could fill you in on if he is going to be hard to get along
with too. I don't think you will have any problem with 95% of the farmers if
you just contact them first. But you can be 100% sure of problems if a
farmer drives up on you after you've cut his fence and driven your SUV into
his field without his permission.

"mm" > wrote in message ...
> Do you happen to know what the value of cotton is per acre?
>
> Were I fly, most often the farmer/rancher is not on site, and I have not
> even seen ownership info posted so that I could contact him later. In
> situations like this, what should a pilot/crew do to minimize damage, and
> reduce the chances of angering the farmer? Is cutting and then repairing
a
> chain link acceptable or not? If not what is the alternative?
>
> Thank you,
>
> "Birdy" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I'm a farmer and a pilot, but I don't fly gliders yet. When you all land
> in
> > a field, first of all get permission from the farmer to retrieve the
> > airplane . There is NOTHING that will make a farmer madder than someone
> > driving through his crops and fields. He can tell you how he wants you
to
> > remove your glider with minium damage to the field and glider and will
> > likely pitch in to help if he is not busy. Also offer to pay damages,
> gross
> > per a. is about $500on corn, $350 soybeans, $300 wheat and some other
> crops
> > it can be much more. Tomatoes could be $5K/a. I don't think you would
like
> > it if someone drove a truck through your yard and over your bushes, it's
> > about the same thing. Just treat the farmers with respect and take care
of
> > any damage and you will be ok.
> >
> >
> > "Greg Arnold" > wrote in message
> > news:D2TXb.4247$hE.3741@fed1read07...
> > > One possibility is to carry a few business cards, and write on the
back
> > > "good for one free glider ride at xxxx", initial it, and give it to
the
> > > person whose field you landed in. Then be sure to tell the local
glider
> > > ride operation that you will pay if someone shows up with the card.
> > >
> > >
> > > Steve Hopkins wrote:
> > >
> > > > I think it is Cambridge GC in England that instituted
> > > > a fantastic land-out diplomatic policy. Pilots, landing
> > > > out, issued an invitation to the farmer and his wife
> > > > to the club's annual dinner dance. Not only did this
> > > > do wonders for public relations, I think they even
> > > > managed to snag a few new flying members. I heard a
> > > > wonderful tale of a local farmer telephoning the club
> > > > rather concerned that he was going to miss the annual
> > > > dinner dance. He added that he had kept the field mown
> > > > and had erected a wind sock but that nobody had landed
> > > > in his field that year!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> > -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
>
>




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

[Martin Gregorie]

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 08:16:40 -0800, Eric Greenwell
> wrote:

....snippage...

>I agree. I read everything Chip writes. His posting on "pilot relief
>devices" a few years ago is still one the RAS Top 10 Postings (make that
>one of the Top 5).

Any chance of re-posting this?

I've just tried a Google Groups search and that shows nothing posted
by Chip before 16 Feb 2002 and nothing on that subject since then.

TIA
Martin


--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

[303pilot]

The pilots weren't tresspassing. They were survivors of an emergency
landing.

"Charles Petersen" > wrote in message
...
> We had two landouts at Seminole yesterday, both in the same field, - a
> pasture with cattle and a locked gate. One of the pilots visited a nearby
> farmhouse, and spoke with the wife of the property owner asking permission
> to enter and a key. She was very nice and called her son. He agreed to
> call back on the pilots cell phone. The Sheriff was also called and did
not
> call back. An hour later, with both trailers at the gate, we called the
> Sheriff again and advised that we intended to cut a link in the chain, and
> replace it with a padlock when we left, and mail the key to the owner.
This
> would leave his field secure, and there was no damage. The Sheriff's
office
> made it clear they were not giving permission, and the retrieve crew made
it
> clear they were not asking for permission, merely advising the Sheriff of
> their intentions, citing the approaching sunset and $220,000 of aircraft
in
> a field with cattle. A bolt cutter gave entry, and we commenced
derigging,
> leaving our most charming crew member at the gate. Both the son of the
> owner and the Sheriff arrived. The son was extremely upset, insisting
that
> charges be laid. The Sheriff, seemingly somewhat reluctantly,
fingerprinted
> both pilots and wrote up a proposal for charges, which he said would be
> presented to the public attorney to decide whether to proceed. Nothing
> further has been heard, and we hope / believe nothing further will be
heard.
>
> My question is: - what is the law governing a landout on private property?
> What are the rights of the pilot and of the property owner? Where are
these
> rights codified? The Sheriff said if we had done the same thing after he
> arrived, he would not have laid charges. He did not charge the retrieve
> crew with breaking and entering or trespassing. What about the crew
> situation?
>
> BTW, all concerned did act as 'ambassadors of the sport', but the son was
> implacable.
>
>

[plasticguy]

Ok, I'll fess up. I've got 133 landouts in hang gliders.
But it wasn't that big a problem for me after I got my dad involved.

My dad was an Ag Banker in Central California where
I landed out often. The big thing the farmers need to
know is that they aren't going to be harmed financially
after you drag your glider out. Years ago, my dad sent
letters to the local farm co-ops explaining that gliders
exist and on occasion you might find one in your field.
The heads up got most everybody past the first step in
their learning process,facing the unknown. Farmers don't
usually know squat about soaring. For all they know,
your full of poisonous fuel, are radioactive and cause cattle sterility.
If you can educate them before you drop in, you will have a
much easier time on the retrieve.

I took my Hang glider stuff to a few FFA meetings, and explained how
I flew and that sometimes, I don't make it home and might accidentally
become their guest. The kids thought it was cool, the adults were
appreciative that somebody had the forethought to tell them what
was going on above them that migt affect them someday. Quite
a few FFA groups and Farmers Cooperatives got the same program
in the mail. After that, I was treated really well by the farmers I dropped
in on, and a couple actually welcomed me.

Proactivity is more time consuming than making excuses at the gate,
but maybe if the racing organization cared to be good neighbors,
a similar effort might raise awareness to a point where problems could
be avoided. I think I might start with the county sherrifs and move
down the food chain.

Scott Correa

[Eric Greenwell]

Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 08:16:40 -0800, Eric Greenwell
> > wrote:
>
> ....snippage...
>
>
>>I agree. I read everything Chip writes. His posting on "pilot relief
>>devices" a few years ago is still one the RAS Top 10 Postings (make that
>>one of the Top 5).
>
>
> Any chance of re-posting this?
>
> I've just tried a Google Groups search and that shows nothing posted
> by Chip before 16 Feb 2002 and nothing on that subject since then.

If it's OK with Chip, I'll repost it, but I'm asking his permission
first in case he wants to repost it himself. It's a classic posting, and
I know it's technically in the public domain, but I'd feel better if
Chip OKs it first.
--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Eric Greenwell]

Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 08:16:40 -0800, Eric Greenwell
> > wrote:
>
> ....snippage...
>
>
>>I agree. I read everything Chip writes. His posting on "pilot relief
>>devices" a few years ago is still one the RAS Top 10 Postings (make that
>>one of the Top 5).
>
>
> Any chance of re-posting this?
>
> I've just tried a Google Groups search and that shows nothing posted
> by Chip before 16 Feb 2002 and nothing on that subject since then.

If it's OK with Chip, I'll repost it, but I'm asking his permission
first in case he wants to repost it himself. It's a classic posting, and
I know it's technically in the public domain, but I'd feel better if
Chip OKs it first.
--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Eric Greenwell]

Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 08:16:40 -0800, Eric Greenwell
> > wrote:
>
> ....snippage...
>
>
>>I agree. I read everything Chip writes. His posting on "pilot relief
>>devices" a few years ago is still one the RAS Top 10 Postings (make that
>>one of the Top 5).
>
>
> Any chance of re-posting this?
>
> I've just tried a Google Groups search and that shows nothing posted
> by Chip before 16 Feb 2002 and nothing on that subject since then.

If it's OK with Chip, I'll repost it, but I'm asking his permission
first in case he wants to repost it himself. It's a classic posting, and
I know it's technically in the public domain, but I'd feel better if
Chip OKs it first.
--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Martin Gregorie]

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 12:32:35 -0800, Eric Greenwell
> wrote:

>
>Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 08:16:40 -0800, Eric Greenwell
>> > wrote:
>>
>> ....snippage...
>>
>>
>>>I agree. I read everything Chip writes. His posting on "pilot relief
>>>devices" a few years ago is still one the RAS Top 10 Postings (make that
>>>one of the Top 5).
>>
>>
>> Any chance of re-posting this?
>>
>> I've just tried a Google Groups search and that shows nothing posted
>> by Chip before 16 Feb 2002 and nothing on that subject since then.
>
>If it's OK with Chip, I'll repost it, but I'm asking his permission
>first in case he wants to repost it himself. It's a classic posting, and
>I know it's technically in the public domain, but I'd feel better if
>Chip OKs it first.

I've no problem with that! Thanks.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

[John Seaborn]

Lots of good information in this thread. I landed in a new cotton
field in which the plants were only 3 inches tall. The field was
planted on double rows so I carefully avoided hitting any of the young
plants. The Farmer came out with the usual assortment of kids and,
after exchanging pleasantries (carry a real dirty CAT hat for these
occasions), I pointed out that I had missed each and every of his
cotton plants. He looked me straight in the eye and said, "son with
the price of cotton right now it don't make a damm bit of difference"
and that was that.

Growing up on a ranch I have been on both sides of the trespass issue.
No matter what the law says you are an uninvited guest on the
property. Most ranchers/farmers have a long history of yeah who's
shooting off the road, starting fires, cutting fences, driving
recklessly, tossing beer bottles and your arrival can be labeled just
another chapter in this litany. Remember that most of these folks are
rather solitary, get few visitors, are rather wary of strangers and
like it that way, hence the choice of vocation. You should make every
effort to understand and overcome these obstacles with common sense
and the provision of respect for the person and the land. They do not
care at all that by landing in their field you just sank your chances
at a hero score in the Nationals or your a hot shot from the Big City.
Ask about the rain, ground, (pick some up in your hand), crop prices,
co ops, crop rotation, how long they have been at it and the best Cafe
in town. Of course there are some farmers and ranchers that fall into
the nutty category as well. Better yet, judging from their posts in
this thread, land with Chip Bearden and Chris.



(Chris OCallaghan) wrote in message >...
> You've received many responses, all offering good advice. Here's a
> suggestion to get real info on legalities. If you are an AOPA member,
> call them and make use of their member services, which include just
> this type of legal assistance. If you are not a member, perhaps you
> can convince an AOPA member to call and share with the group.

[Snead1]

I have soared cross country since the 1950's and because of low skill level
have landed in about 200 fields. I only had serious trouble once- with hired
horse farm manager. Problem was solved when Nancy arrived carrying our 1 1/2
year old daughter with a dripping diaper. "O what the Hell get out of here".

Be very nice. Say sir a lot. If offered a drink of water, accept and comment
on how great the water tastes. Helps to comment how much you appreciate the
food or fiber that the 2 percent the who work the land provide to the rest of
us.

Do everything possible to reduce damage
to crops.


Bill Snead
6W

[Ian Johnston]

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 03:29:58 UTC, Bruce Friesen >
wrote:

: His idea was to get the farmer's youngest _kid_ in the cockpit, take a photo, and promise to send a copy. Instant enthusiastic friend and ally!

I always carry a spare gliding club T-shirt in the back for
child-bribery purposes. I know someone who carries a box of chocolates
for the farmer's wife as well, but even in the UK I think it can get a
bit warm for that ...

Ian

--

[Ian Johnston]

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 19:09:51 UTC, "plasticguy"
> wrote:

: I took my Hang glider stuff to a few FFA meetings, and explained how
: I flew and that sometimes, I don't make it home and might accidentally
: become their guest.

My club exhibits a glider at the local agricultural show every year as
part of a very active policy of stying friends with the locals. It
seems to work!

Ian

--

[Chris OCallaghan]

These stories go on forever...

I'll add one more, then retire from the thread.

I landed out during the Sports Class Nats at Cordele, Georgia (89,
90?). It was a field left fallow among the peanuts. No damage, easy
access, no worries. I walked the half mile to the farmer's house and
knocked. The door opened and out he came, about 5'6", 150 lbs, in
overalls, and clearly interested in what I was doing on his doorstep.
He began talking rapidly. I didn't understand a single word he said.
But I recognized why. It was his unusual accent. I needed to break the
code -- understand the music of it -- then I'd be able to understand
him. The key in such situations is to keep your eyes on the person's
lips. It usually only takes several seconds...

I suddenly became aware that he wasn't talking anymore. He was staring
at me, 6'2" tall, 190 lbs, slightly hunched over, slack jawed,
blinking stupidly, staring at his mouth. Add the silly hat, the open
fly, and a decade old Region 4 tee shirt, threadbare and stained, and
he came to the only logical conclusion...

He was very kind to me after that. Speaking slowly. Offering the
phone. Happy to see that my tenders were able to find me and take me
back whence I'd come.

Moral of the story? Those in need typically recieve aid in proportion
to their need. I'm sure this man thought, "There but for the grace of
God," and responded with kindness. Not particularly wholesome for my
ego. But you go with the flow...

[JJ Sinclair]

And then there was the local gal that landed out at Schurz, NV. A pick-up
roared up and offered her a ride to town. As she was about to get in, she
noticed the two indians were butt naked and declined the offer.

And then there was this guy that landed out in one of the nats at Uvalde, TX.
He tried to talk to a bunch of farm workers, but they all ran away, because
airplanes that landed there usually had something to do with drugs. The tow
plane arrived too late for a safe flight back, so he tied the glider down and
left in the tow plane.

Next morning he was met by no less than 30 Texas Rangers with weapons drawn.
"Don't know 'bout that accent, son? Where you come from? Where's the drugs?
JJ Sinclair

[Eggert Ehmke]

"Charles Petersen" > schrieb:

>We had two landouts at Seminole yesterday, ...

having read the complete thread, I came to the conclusion that out
landing seems to be rather bizarre in the US. All my time I was
dreaming of flying in your great soaring conditions, now I'm not so
sure anymore ... :-))

As a contrast, I had my share of outlandings too. Most of the time, I
was sitting in a farmer's kitchen, enjoying coffee and cake, or even a
beer offered, and waited for the retrieve crew. One farmer got his
tractor to pull the glider out of the field. No one was offensive.

Also, in germany it is law that gliders have the right to land at all
suitable places. The land owner is allowed to ask for name and
insurance, nothing more. He is not allowed to hinder the retrieve.
Eggert

[Eric Greenwell]

Eggert Ehmke wrote:
> "Charles Petersen" > schrieb:

>>We had two landouts at Seminole yesterday, ...

> having read the complete thread, I came to the conclusion that out
> landing seems to be rather bizarre in the US. All my time I was
> dreaming of flying in your great soaring conditions, now I'm not so
> sure anymore ... :-))
>
> As a contrast, I had my share of outlandings too. Most of the time, I
> was sitting in a farmer's kitchen, enjoying coffee and cake, or even a
> beer offered, and waited for the retrieve crew. One farmer got his
> tractor to pull the glider out of the field. No one was offensive.

And that's how most of the outlandings go in the USA, also; however, the
very few that don't are often memorable. It's such a small concern, you
shouldn't let that stop you from visiting some of our outstanding
soaring areas. You'll love the lack of airspace restrictions, compared
to Germany!

> Also, in germany it is law that gliders have the right to land at all
> suitable places. The land owner is allowed to ask for name and
> insurance, nothing more. He is not allowed to hinder the retrieve.
> Eggert

Very civilized! With the higher density population, and a far higher
density of gliders landing in fields, trusting to good luck like we do
probably doesn't work. Here, lots fewer people per square mile, and far
fewer gliders per square mile!
--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[BMacLean]

A few years ago I was participating in our club ASA contest series. The
first day I landed out about 50 miles away at a private residential
airstrip. Of course, the inhabitants were extremely welcoming. The met me
with a golf cart, pushed my glider off the runway, immediately got me my
cold drink of choice (Diet Coke), drove me all around the area showing me
each resident's personal aircraft. At each stop we made, we picked up a new
friend so by the time the towplane arrived and I was taking off I had about
20 wing runners and quite a send-off of waving hands.

The next day, also a contest day, I landed (yes) at the same airport and was
immediately met with "we were hoping to see you again but we didn't think it
would be this soon...you like Diet Coke, right?" It was kind of embarassing
but I had another nice afternoon waiting for the towplane.

I would like to add that being a female I pay particular attention to where
I might have to land. I know that because of that I am not as bold as some
of my male friends in pushing out a flight. I am more conscious of staying
in gliding range of a hospitable landing place than say a dilapidated farm
out in the middle of nowhere. I just am more aware that there still may be
problems to face after I land. And if I do have to land out in a field
somewhere I tend to land away from buildings because I really don't want
anyone to see me, I just don't know who or what I'll run into. I'm not
overly paranoid, just cautious. (I also don't walk through dark parking
lots at night.) But I do absolutely love flying cross-country, the farther,
the faster, the better.

Barb

[Bob Kuykendall]

Earlier, Eggert Ehmke > wrote:

> ...having read the complete thread,
> I came to the conclusion that out
> landing seems to be rather bizarre
> in the US...

That's a conclusion based on a thread that has specifically explored
the more troublesome episodes. In my experience of 25 years of crewing
and one pasture landing, the majority of outlandings are friendly
adventures as you describe.

Thanks, and best regards

Bob K.

[dhofstee]

Bruce Friesen wrote:
> Wonderful post. One wee addition.
>
> A friend of mine swore by a wrinkle to the "offer to take the owner's
> picture with the glider using
>
> your digital camera and email him the photo" strategy. His idea was to
> get the farmer's youngest _kid_ in the cockpit, take a photo, and
> promise to send a copy. Instant enthusiastic friend and ally! Well

That always works here (NL) too. I've heard of people offering a small
bottle of liquor as a bribe. Nothing fancy, not big at all. Bye,

David
NL

[John Shelton]

I disagree. I think Bob Kuykendall is dead on the money.

No matter what happens in the future, you have to get your ship out. And it
is unlikely that anyone will sacrifice their Ventus for the sake of
soaring's posterity.

Make the offer of a hundred bucks. It is a lot cheaper than what he will do
with a tractor and a chain, or what a dozen cattle with do with their
tongues.

It is not fair. But do it because it is smart. Forget theories and logic.
Get your glider out. The longer he has it, the more it is his.

He voted for the sheriff who is his cousin anyway.

I have dealt with ranchers successfully all my adult life. They are a lot
like suburbanites and apartment dwellers...just more spread out. They object
to people getting inside their space whether it's rational or not. Once
inside, they want to exercise power.

They get tired of people shooting their cattle, dumping garbage on their
land, and living better than them. You are the personification of all those
mysterious "city people" that **** him off. On the other hand, he knows that
you know where he lives and his assets cannot be protected from uncivilized
acts. He is thinking that the whole time you are standing there. Of course,
you wouldn't shoot all his cattle in the ribs or put a hole in his aqua
ammonia tank or put 2, 4-D in his spray rig or Crazy Glue in all his locks,
but he doesn't know that.

You should be willing to show a little starch. Be polite but don't kiss ass.
He did not want you there but once you are, it is a little like the love
scene in Deliverance. If he wanted you gone all that bad, he would help you
leave. He is trying to exercise power. You don't have to threaten to let him
know that he better not screw with your airplane or you will do whatever
ominous and arcane things that city people do to rural people.

I do not recommend doing this at home but once a farmer told me that he was
going to lock the gate. I did all the Bob Kuykendall things and he still
wanted to shove me around. So, I told him I was going to drive through his
fence. I think he got the idea that I wanted to kick his stupid face in more
than I wanted my glider back...and by then, hypoglycemic and tired, I really
really did. I'm not a pretty guy and when I am thinking about cannibalism,
it shows.

More acceptable versions of this exist in the form of straight, un-hurried
talk, eye contact, friendliness, and plain dealing. If he is a jerk, he will
still be one. If he is okay, he will stay okay. But I have seen lots of guys
go in winning and come out losing because of the way they handled it.

That's your first lesson in Rancher 101. There WILL be a quiz.

[ET]

"BMacLean" > wrote in
news:uUsYb.17230$Zt4.9203@okepread01:

> A few years ago I was participating in our club ASA contest series.
> The first day I landed out about 50 miles away at a private
> residential airstrip. Of course, the inhabitants were extremely
> welcoming. The met me with a golf cart, pushed my glider off the
> runway, immediately got me my cold drink of choice (Diet Coke), drove
> me all around the area showing me each resident's personal aircraft.
> At each stop we made, we picked up a new friend so by the time the
> towplane arrived and I was taking off I had about 20 wing runners and
> quite a send-off of waving hands.
>
> The next day, also a contest day, I landed (yes) at the same airport
> and was immediately met with "we were hoping to see you again but we
> didn't think it would be this soon...you like Diet Coke, right?" It
> was kind of embarassing but I had another nice afternoon waiting for
> the towplane.
>
> I would like to add that being a female I pay particular attention to
> where I might have to land. I know that because of that I am not as
> bold as some of my male friends in pushing out a flight. I am more
> conscious of staying in gliding range of a hospitable landing place
> than say a dilapidated farm out in the middle of nowhere. I just am
> more aware that there still may be problems to face after I land. And
> if I do have to land out in a field somewhere I tend to land away from
> buildings because I really don't want anyone to see me, I just don't
> know who or what I'll run into. I'm not overly paranoid, just
> cautious. (I also don't walk through dark parking lots at night.)
> But I do absolutely love flying cross-country, the farther, the
> faster, the better.
>
> Barb
>
>

My wife and I kind of joke about this.... Elaine Boosler had a bit about
why women have to be more carefull then men... "Oh I'm not going jogging
in the park I have a ****** (insert part of female anatomy that begins
with a "v") with me; If Id'a known, I would have left it at home"

....guess you had to have heard it.. reading it seems kind of lame :-(

oh well.

--
ET >:)


"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

[Eggert Ehmke]

Bob Kuykendall wrote:

> That's a conclusion based on a thread that has specifically explored
> the more troublesome episodes. In my experience of 25 years of crewing
> and one pasture landing, the majority of outlandings are friendly
> adventures as you describe.

Thanks for relieving me of my concerns! In fact, that's what I expected. I
will come for some flights, sooner or later!

Btw, the remark "Who*has*more*guns" really made me think. This is just out
of question. While flying, I can control the risks I take. I am not going
to fly over areas where guns wait for me on the ground.

Eggert

[Richard Brisbourne]

Steve Hopkins wrote:

> I think it is Cambridge GC in England that instituted
> a fantastic land-out diplomatic policy. Pilots, landing
> out, issued an invitation to the farmer and his wife
> to the club's annual dinner dance. Not only did this
> do wonders for public relations, I think they even
> managed to snag a few new flying members. I heard a
> wonderful tale of a local farmer telephoning the club
> rather concerned that he was going to miss the annual
> dinner dance. He added that he had kept the field mown
> and had erected a wind sock but that nobody had landed
> in his field that year!

A variation on the theme is the Farmer's Wine and Cheese Party at Lasham-
been going since the 1960s. I believe at one time it was even in the
social events diary in "Farmer's Weekly". I've also, when flying in the
south of England had farmers asking if I could get then an invite.

Another approach used by some British clubs is the aerotow trial lesson
voucher- it generates goodwill and only costs the pilot money if the person
he gives it to actually shows up to take the ride.
--
Soar the big sky
The real name on the left is richard

[Bill Daniels]

I've been following this thread with interest. As I was reading it I was
also updating my landout site database. Starting with
http://www.airstripamerica.com/ and http://www.airnav.com/airports/us, I
looked for runways in the area that I plan to be flying which would
accomodate the 20+ meter span of the Nimbus 2C.

In about three weeks I am planning a two day road trip to southern Colorado
and northern New Mexico to eyeball, measure and photograph a bunch of these
potential landing sites. I will post the pictures and information to the
Airstrip America web site as they request so other glider pilots can use the
information. I suggest that it would be a good idea for all of us to do
this for everyones benefit.

One duster strip is strategically located on the second leg of a proposed
500K triangle and the owners e-mail address was listed. I e-mailed him to
ask about the width of his dirt runway and whether I might use it in an
emergency. He replied, "Why sure, it's plenty wide." "Drop in anytime!"

Based on some of the inputs by r.a.s. members in this thread, I will also
ask the AG pilots at the various strips I visit which farms and ranches to
avoid. I expect they will know a lot about their customers.

Bill Daniels

[JJ Sinclair]

Actually I don't blame the farmers too much. Take Dayton duster strip, about 20
miles N/E of Minden. His gate was unlocked and the road led right through his
ranch complex (home & barn) His strip got a lot of use, because it was the last
place to land before the mountains blocked the way home from the North. Some
crews didn't even stop and ask permission at the ranch house and would just
drive right through his yard, leaving a cloud of dust on their way to his
duster strip. His gate was left wide open on several occasions. little wonder
he finally said. NO MORE.

That ranch is now a million dollar aviation & golfing complex with a nice long,
paved runway. Guess what? A local tow-pilot reported them to the Reno FSDO,
because their runway markers were too close to the runway (a glider hit one as
it was being aero-towed out). RIGHT BACK to SQUARE ONE. Gliders are no longer
welcome there. I believe one can land there, but aero-towing out is forbidden,
because they might hit one of their *illegal* runway markers.
JJ Sinclair

[PENN2P]

TRY THIS IT WORKED FOR ME AND IS A FACT.
" I'm sorry you are upset and feel the way you do Mr. Farmer. However, I did
not elect or desire to make an emergency landing on your property. This
aircraft is licensed and operated in accordance with the rules, regulations,
and laws of the U S Goverment and its Dept. of Federal Aviation Adm. See that
registration number on the tail. If you do not wish to permit me to remove this
aircraft from your property, then so be it. I must, however, by Federal law
notify the the FAA that an aircraft incident has occured on your property. In
turn they will conduct an investigation within 24 to 48 hours of the incident
as well as you and your background and surrounding circunstances. I dont think
you want to deal with that, but if you do then so be it. Or, you can permit and
assist me in getting this aircraft off your property right NOW."

[plasticguy]

"PENN2P" > wrote in message
...
> TRY THIS IT WORKED FOR ME AND IS A FACT.
> " I'm sorry you are upset and feel the way you do Mr. Farmer. However, I
did
> not elect or desire to make an emergency landing on your property.
BIG SNIP//////


The only problem with this line of thinking is that the landing wasn't
an emergency. Off field landings, while not terribly common, are not
technically emergencies. They are unplanned events, but they do not
carry the imminent risk of injury, loss of life or the other things
emergencies
use for definition. In fact, the use of trailers and the use of a recovery
crew
seem to indicate that it is an expected outcome. I wouldn't go there
if I didn't need to.

Scott.

[Gary Ittner]

plasticguy wrote:

> Farmers don't
> usually know squat about soaring. For all they know,
> your full of poisonous fuel

It's not just the farmers.

One day at the '99 USA 15m Nats, I was trying to fly from the Big Spring
TX turnpoint back to Hobbs NM when I ended up landing at the Levelland
TX airport. (If you look up the locations of these three towns on a map,
you'll get a good idea of the size of the thunderstorm that I was trying
to circumnavigate.) The single runway was closed for re-paving, so I
landed on the taxiway and rolled to a stop on the ramp.

I had time to push my Ventus off to the side of the fuel pump area, call
for my crew on the airport pay phone, and strike up a conversation with
the airport manager, all before the next glider arrived. I knew that
Levelland is only 20 miles south of the Caprock Soaring Club's operation
at Littlefield TX, and so was not surprised when the manager told me
that he had seen gliders land here many times before.

I had dumped all my ballast 15 minutes before landing, but Roy Cundiff
did not pull the cork until he entered downwind for Levelland. I left
the airport office to catch Roy's wingtip as he rolled to a stop, with
half a load of water still draining out.

The airport manager came running up to us. He was on the verge of going
ballistic because Roy's Ventus was apparently dumping Jet-A fuel all
over the ramp, creating a huge fire hazard only 100 feet from the fuel
pumps! It took only a short time to convince him that it was merely
water, but quite a while longer to explain why the glider was carrying
so many gallons of water in its "fuel" tanks...

I was gratified that Roy tried as hard as I did not to laugh at this
man's concerns. And that brings me to this bit of advice: NEVER laugh at
anyone during a landout, unless you are sure that they are telling a
joke that they think is funny.

Gary Ittner P7
"Have glider, will race"

[SNOOP]

How true. I went to pick up 053 during the 2002 1-26 champs, and was
met by a local farmer alongside the field, that Neil had landed in.
Neil had gone down the road with another local farmer, and his gang of
excited kids, to use a phone.

When I pulled up with the trailer this guy gets out of his old pickup.
I introduced myself, and shook his hand. All he says with a very
suspicious tone was "sumpin' goin' on here". I told him yessir, one of
our pilots from the Air Force Academy's 2002 glider contest had to
land in this nice field. He just repeated his first statement and
added" that pilot had him a big bag of something that he carried off
with him".

I told him that the pilot probably had his water bag and his kit
containing his landout phone numbers. He then tells me how he suspects
his neighbor farmer, who had picked up Neil was in on the conspiracy.
Oh boy. Along comes a mom with a couple of kids. She's another
neighbor. The old boy tell's her "sumpin' goin' on here". She looks at
me, kind of rolls her eyes, suggesting to me that she too doesn't
beleive her neighbor here, is wrapped too tight.

So I offer up that I am a professional pilot and would be glad to give
the nice lady my credentials and some phone numbers to check it all
out. The farmer tells her to go ahead and write down the information.
He then goes away happy.

Neil comes back with the smiling farmer and his kids, we load the kids
up in the glider for pictures, and headed back to Bullseye. Some days
I feel like I would make a pretty good car salesman.
Gary Ittner > wrote in message >...
> plasticguy wrote:
>
> > Farmers don't
> > usually know squat about soaring. For all they know,
> > your full of poisonous fuel
>
> It's not just the farmers.
>
> One day at the '99 USA 15m Nats, I was trying to fly from the Big Spring
> TX turnpoint back to Hobbs NM when I ended up landing at the Levelland
> TX airport. (If you look up the locations of these three towns on a map,
> you'll get a good idea of the size of the thunderstorm that I was trying
> to circumnavigate.) The single runway was closed for re-paving, so I
> landed on the taxiway and rolled to a stop on the ramp.
>
> I had time to push my Ventus off to the side of the fuel pump area, call
> for my crew on the airport pay phone, and strike up a conversation with
> the airport manager, all before the next glider arrived. I knew that
> Levelland is only 20 miles south of the Caprock Soaring Club's operation
> at Littlefield TX, and so was not surprised when the manager told me
> that he had seen gliders land here many times before.
>
> I had dumped all my ballast 15 minutes before landing, but Roy Cundiff
> did not pull the cork until he entered downwind for Levelland. I left
> the airport office to catch Roy's wingtip as he rolled to a stop, with
> half a load of water still draining out.
>
> The airport manager came running up to us. He was on the verge of going
> ballistic because Roy's Ventus was apparently dumping Jet-A fuel all
> over the ramp, creating a huge fire hazard only 100 feet from the fuel
> pumps! It took only a short time to convince him that it was merely
> water, but quite a while longer to explain why the glider was carrying
> so many gallons of water in its "fuel" tanks...
>
> I was gratified that Roy tried as hard as I did not to laugh at this
> man's concerns. And that brings me to this bit of advice: NEVER laugh at
> anyone during a landout, unless you are sure that they are telling a
> joke that they think is funny.
>
> Gary Ittner P7
> "Have glider, will race"

[Jack]

On 2/18/04 6:38 PM, in article ,
"plasticguy" > wrote:

> Off field landings...are not technically emergencies.

Cite?

There is plenty in soaring to be technical about, but aren't we really
dealing here with a state of mind?


> They are unplanned events...

They are premeditated. They should be, and are, planned-for. They are not
necessarily intended.


> ...they do not carry the imminent risk of injury, loss of life or
> the other things emergencies use for definition.

The closer you get to landing the more of an emergency a landout is. It is
not necessary in any other type of aviation activity with which I am
familiar to see injury or loss of life as imminent before one is encouraged
to declare an emergency. The point of categorizing a particular situation as
an emergency is most often as a proactive measure in order to avoid
imminence. Perhaps in contradiction of any unexamined expectations, I think
it is reasonable to say that a landout by a ranked competitor in a fast,
heavy, many-meter ship may be as dangerous, and as much an emergency, as an
A-Badger struggling into the same field in a 2-33.


> ...the use of trailers and the use of a recovery crew
> seem to indicate that it is an expected outcome.

....to the same extent that the provision of fire fighting equipment and
emergency medical teams at airline airports indicate that there is an
expectation they will be needed. The presence of mechanics with tools at
most airports is an indication that mechanical failures will occur. That
does not bar many types of failures from being considered emergency
conditions.


> I wouldn't go there if I didn't need to.

With that I can agree wholeheartedly. Describing the average landout as an
emergency procedure might not be healthy for the sport, neither in a public
relations sense, in a regulatory sense, nor in the cause of recruiting new
participants.

Nonetheless, landouts are the closest thing I know of in soaring to the
number and variety of emergencies in other realms of aviation of which I
have first hand knowledge.

One has limited time, limited resources, and a more or less rapidly closing
window of opportunity for a successful outcome. Everywhere else in aviation,
that is enough to encourage crew members to assume an emergency condition
mindset, whether in order to avail themselves of assistance or just to
diminish the threat to themselves and others.

If the idea of being in an emergency condition from the time we leave for
the airport until the time we put on our slippers and light our pipes at the
end of the day is somewhat unsettling, then that may indicate a certain lack
of acceptance of the realities.

In soaring there are only three, after all. ;>



Jack

[303pilot]

> On 2/18/04 6:38 PM, in article ,
> "plasticguy" > wrote:
>
> Off field landings...are not technically emergencies.

Hmm...
What _do_ you call it when an aircraft loses power and has to land?

[Nyal Williams]

At 17:54 20 February 2004, 303pilot wrote:
>
>> On 2/18/04 6:38 PM, in article
>>>,
>> 'plasticguy' wrote:
>>
> > Off field landings...are not technically emergencies.
>
>Hmm...
>What _do_ you call it when an aircraft loses power
>and has to land?


My SEL instructor taught me to use the word 'precautionary,'
because, as he said, 'Once the word emergency is used,
you have to fill out papers.'

[Mark James Boyd]

In article >,
Nyal Williams > wrote:
>At 17:54 20 February 2004, 303pilot wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/18/04 6:38 PM, in article
>>>>,
>>> 'plasticguy' wrote:
>>>
>> > Off field landings...are not technically emergencies.
>>
>>Hmm...
>>What _do_ you call it when an aircraft loses power
>>and has to land?
>
>
>My SEL instructor taught me to use the word 'precautionary,'
>because, as he said, 'Once the word emergency is used,
>you have to fill out papers.'

I've declared an emergency about a half-dozen times,
and never filled out (or been asked to fill out) a shred of paper.
I think this is mostly only asked for if it impacts a
commercial operation or it's a clear case of pilot
error that caused the emergency (fuel exhaustion while
carrying a passenger in a Cezzna, for example).

On the other hand, in every case I was VERY happy to be greeted
by fire trucks and police cars, the airport manager,
or the guy at the 800 number telling me
he was glad I was OK.

One time it was as simple as "I've lost engine power and am
landing at airport XYZ. If I don't call you from the ground
after a safe landing in five minutes, send the fire
department." An airliner relayed my safe landing to ATC,
and when I called them also later, they were just happy I
had a safe landing.

[Mark James Boyd]

In article >,
Stefan > wrote:
>Nyal Williams wrote:
>
>> My SEL instructor taught me to use the word 'precautionary,'
>> because, as he said, 'Once the word emergency is used,
>> you have to fill out papers.'
>
>Every now and then I read, mainly from American pilots: Don't do this or
>that, because if you do, you will have to fill out papers. Which rises
>the question: How did they manage to pass their written if they
>obviously cannot read and write? Or, if I'm wrong and they can, what's
>the problem?
>
>Stefan

LOL. I think they really mean "there will be evidence in your
file and your insurance rates may increase or you may
have a harder time finding aviation employment." I have
seen papers in the FAA files which have caused these results
for some pilots. I personally would rather declare
an emergency and have assistance than try to cover up my
errors and hope for the best (but perhaps end up with
an injury).

[Stefan]

Nyal Williams wrote:

> My SEL instructor taught me to use the word 'precautionary,'
> because, as he said, 'Once the word emergency is used,
> you have to fill out papers.'

Every now and then I read, mainly from American pilots: Don't do this or
that, because if you do, you will have to fill out papers. Which rises
the question: How did they manage to pass their written if they
obviously cannot read and write? Or, if I'm wrong and they can, what's
the problem?

Stefan

[303pilot]

> >
> > Off field landings...are not technically emergencies.
>
> Hmm...
> What _do_ you call it when an aircraft loses power and has to land?
>

I got a couple email responses to this advising me that the discussion was
about sailplanes, not powered planes.

The words were chosen to introduce the argument that there's no difference
between a powered airplane that loses power and a sailplane that loses
power, other than the fact that one is externally powered and the other
internally powered and that a well maintained engine may be more predictable
than thermals, ridge lift and wave.

So, if it is an emergency when a powered aircraft loses power and is forced
to land, why would it not also be an emergency when a sailplane is unable to
connect to its source of power and is forced to land? Shouldn't those on
the ground treat them the same?

FWIW, I've not had a bad experience with a landowner.
My favorite was last summer. I landed out on a ranch strip that hadn't seen
an aircraft in a decade. One of the ranch hands--straight out of central
casting--said,
"I saw you circling with those buzzards pretty low over the auction pen."
"Yeah, sailplanes use the same lift as soaring birds do" said I.
"Looks like they're a little better at it" said he.
"Yeah, they are" I said shaking my head and laughing.

Brent


"303pilot" <brentUNDERSCOREsullivanATbmcDOTcom> wrote in message
...
>
> > On 2/18/04 6:38 PM, in article ,
> > "plasticguy" > wrote:
> >
> > Off field landings...are not technically emergencies.
>
> Hmm...
> What _do_ you call it when an aircraft loses power and has to land?
>
>

[Stefan]

303pilot wrote:

> So, if it is an emergency when a powered aircraft loses power and is forced
> to land, why would it not also be an emergency when a sailplane is unable to
> connect to its source of power and is forced to land?

Because in a sailplane, at any given moment outlanding is just your plan B.

Stefan

[Bruce Hoult]

In article >,
Stefan > wrote:

> 303pilot wrote:
>
> > So, if it is an emergency when a powered aircraft loses power and is forced
> > to land, why would it not also be an emergency when a sailplane is unable to
> > connect to its source of power and is forced to land?
>
> Because in a sailplane, at any given moment outlanding is just your plan B.

In a Cezzna, a possible outlanding in the event of engine failure should
always be plan B as well. Judging by the number of times that Cezzna
pilots faced with an outlanding f*ck it up they don't think enough about
plan B.

-- Bruce

[303pilot]

So the attitude of the pilot at the time of the event determines whether it
is an emergency or not?
Aren't powered pilots required to fly at an altitude sufficient to offer a
landing option should they lose power? Isn't that just their plan B?

Still looking for the difference...

Brent
"Stefan" > wrote in message
...
> 303pilot wrote:
>
> > So, if it is an emergency when a powered aircraft loses power and is
forced
> > to land, why would it not also be an emergency when a sailplane is
unable to
> > connect to its source of power and is forced to land?
>
> Because in a sailplane, at any given moment outlanding is just your plan
B.
>
> Stefan
>

[Mark James Boyd]

Stefan > wrote:
>303pilot wrote:
>
>> So, if it is an emergency when a powered aircraft loses power and is forced
>> to land, why would it not also be an emergency when a sailplane is unable to
>> connect to its source of power and is forced to land?
>
>Because in a sailplane, at any given moment outlanding is just your plan B.

I think of unplanned outlandings in the same way I think of
running out of gas in a power plane. If I had lousy fuel
gauges, and never checked the fuel levels before flight in
power planes, I'd probably only fly airplanes with excellent
glide ratios and that I could disassemble and trailer. ;(

I think whether an "outlanding" is an emergency has a lot more
to do with the pilot than the aircraft or type of activity.

For the multi-engine pilot examiners, who've landed dozens of
times with an engine that won't restart, single-engine landings
aren't emergencies, they're just "abnormal" procedures.

For our local examiner and our local 30,000 hr instructor,
who've had dozens of engine failures, this is just an "abnormal"
procedure. They always fly a profile that allows an assured
safe landing, given their experience and abilities, and
it's no coincidence that they haven't damaged an aircraft during
any of these engine failures.

For different glider pilots, I think different types of
"outlandings" may be an emergency or may be an "abnormal" procedure.

The first time I landed at an airstrip in a glider, and I hadn't
planned on landing there, it was an emergency. I didn't know
for sure if the glider would be damaged during the landing.
There were enough unknowns that I certainly was not completely
confident of an assured good outcome.

For me now, an "outlanding" at an airstrip, airport, or closed
airport I have scouted out and/or landed at before is an
"abnormal" procedure, if I hadn't planned to land there during
that flight.

Having scouted out a lot of strips (in a power plane) that looked
good from the air, and then gotten lower and said "no way I'd
ever land anything there," I'd consider landing a glider at
an unknown airstrip an emergency procedure (for me). I'd
also consider landing in a plowed field an emergency
procedure (for me). Really just because I haven't done it
before and am not completely confident and assured that
I can do it without damage. Reading and training is one thing,
doing it is another.

Carl Herold at
www.lvvsa.org/Training/LANDOUT-VER-2b.pdf
"Training: An off field landing is an unplanned emergency landing!"

If you look at his record, 2 of his first 10 X-C flights damaged
a glider during an off field landing. At 154 X-C flights, he damaged
a glider off field.

My conclusion from his record of "newbie" experience, plus my
own experiences and hangar talk, is that "newbie" glider pilots doing
early X-C should plan and execute cross-country flights so that
they land only at suitable airstrips (CH discusses this in
more detail). After a dozen+ experiences with crosswinds,
wondering if the wingspan is wider than the runway, vehicles
or other obstructions on the strip, and a few trailer and
aero-retrieves, I think a pilot then has a much better idea
what the risks and constraints are for a safe landing off field.
Will they then choose to accept that risk and
accept new landouts? Perhaps...

One seldom discussed option is to scout out the landouts in a
powered airplane. Some towplanes are insured for dual instruction
also. Take the glider pilot (or 3) along the route and land/low pass
at each airstrip and airport near home. For $100 split 3 ways,
this seems like a great preview of things to come.

61.93 requirements don't specify the X-C training for students
needs to be in a glider, so do it in a power plane instead.
More flexibility, can cover more airports in less time, and
it takes the mystery out of outlandings for newbie pilots
who've never landed anywhere but home. Then, if the CFIG
is really comfortable with the student, sign them off for
an X-C. Should you do a landing at an alien airstrip
dual first? Maybe. Results may vary...

Cross-country is fun. The SSA and others wonder why
newbies don't do it more. Simple. They've never done it
before so it's risky. We can either talk about it a lot
and wait for perfect conditions and do a lot of planning
and then struggle to fly dual and then pay for a tow
home, or:

we can just get in a dang airplane (or motorglider) and
do a "scouting" cross-country. It's worked for me...

[Bill Daniels]

"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
news:403bbce6$1@darkstar...
> Stefan > wrote:
> >303pilot wrote:
> >
> >> So, if it is an emergency when a powered aircraft loses power and is
forced
> >> to land, why would it not also be an emergency when a sailplane is
unable to
> >> connect to its source of power and is forced to land?
> >
> >Because in a sailplane, at any given moment outlanding is just your plan
B.
>
> I think of unplanned outlandings in the same way I think of
> running out of gas in a power plane. If I had lousy fuel
> gauges, and never checked the fuel levels before flight in
> power planes, I'd probably only fly airplanes with excellent
> glide ratios and that I could disassemble and trailer. ;(
>
> I think whether an "outlanding" is an emergency has a lot more
> to do with the pilot than the aircraft or type of activity.
>
> For the multi-engine pilot examiners, who've landed dozens of
> times with an engine that won't restart, single-engine landings
> aren't emergencies, they're just "abnormal" procedures.
>
> For our local examiner and our local 30,000 hr instructor,
> who've had dozens of engine failures, this is just an "abnormal"
> procedure. They always fly a profile that allows an assured
> safe landing, given their experience and abilities, and
> it's no coincidence that they haven't damaged an aircraft during
> any of these engine failures.
>
> For different glider pilots, I think different types of
> "outlandings" may be an emergency or may be an "abnormal" procedure.
>
> The first time I landed at an airstrip in a glider, and I hadn't
> planned on landing there, it was an emergency. I didn't know
> for sure if the glider would be damaged during the landing.
> There were enough unknowns that I certainly was not completely
> confident of an assured good outcome.
>
> For me now, an "outlanding" at an airstrip, airport, or closed
> airport I have scouted out and/or landed at before is an
> "abnormal" procedure, if I hadn't planned to land there during
> that flight.
>
> Having scouted out a lot of strips (in a power plane) that looked
> good from the air, and then gotten lower and said "no way I'd
> ever land anything there," I'd consider landing a glider at
> an unknown airstrip an emergency procedure (for me). I'd
> also consider landing in a plowed field an emergency
> procedure (for me). Really just because I haven't done it
> before and am not completely confident and assured that
> I can do it without damage. Reading and training is one thing,
> doing it is another.
>
> Carl Herold at
> www.lvvsa.org/Training/LANDOUT-VER-2b.pdf
> "Training: An off field landing is an unplanned emergency landing!"
>
> If you look at his record, 2 of his first 10 X-C flights damaged
> a glider during an off field landing. At 154 X-C flights, he damaged
> a glider off field.
>
> My conclusion from his record of "newbie" experience, plus my
> own experiences and hangar talk, is that "newbie" glider pilots doing
> early X-C should plan and execute cross-country flights so that
> they land only at suitable airstrips (CH discusses this in
> more detail). After a dozen+ experiences with crosswinds,
> wondering if the wingspan is wider than the runway, vehicles
> or other obstructions on the strip, and a few trailer and
> aero-retrieves, I think a pilot then has a much better idea
> what the risks and constraints are for a safe landing off field.
> Will they then choose to accept that risk and
> accept new landouts? Perhaps...
>
> One seldom discussed option is to scout out the landouts in a
> powered airplane. Some towplanes are insured for dual instruction
> also. Take the glider pilot (or 3) along the route and land/low pass
> at each airstrip and airport near home. For $100 split 3 ways,
> this seems like a great preview of things to come.
>
> 61.93 requirements don't specify the X-C training for students
> needs to be in a glider, so do it in a power plane instead.
> More flexibility, can cover more airports in less time, and
> it takes the mystery out of outlandings for newbie pilots
> who've never landed anywhere but home. Then, if the CFIG
> is really comfortable with the student, sign them off for
> an X-C. Should you do a landing at an alien airstrip
> dual first? Maybe. Results may vary...
>
> Cross-country is fun. The SSA and others wonder why
> newbies don't do it more. Simple. They've never done it
> before so it's risky. We can either talk about it a lot
> and wait for perfect conditions and do a lot of planning
> and then struggle to fly dual and then pay for a tow
> home, or:
>
> we can just get in a dang airplane (or motorglider) and
> do a "scouting" cross-country. It's worked for me...
>
>
Good post, Mark.

I have a simple XC rule. Never fly beyond safe gliding distance to a
known-safe landing site. That doesn't mean I don't go, it means I scout a
lot of landing sites from the ground. I walk them, measure them and note
the details in a little book. GPS makes this kind of expedition a lot
easier and more accurate.

There is a web site where this kind of information can be uploaded for all
to use. I plan to be sending them a lot of information and pictures. I
think everybody should. It is: http://www.airstripamerica.com/

Bill Daniels

[Stefan]

303pilot wrote:

> Aren't powered pilots required to fly at an altitude sufficient to offer a
> landing option should they lose power? Isn't that just their plan B?

I don't know the regulations of your country. But I guess it depends
what you mean by "landing option".

When flying gliders, outlanding is part of the game. I always am inside
a cone of a landing field on which I can land without damaging the
glider. (Of course, there's always a risk.) This is how I've learnt it,
and it makes outlanding is a complete non event. Very easy to achieve on
flat land, not so easy in the mountains. When soaring in the mountains,
I have a catalog with the known outlanding fields with me and plan
accordingly.

On the other hand, when flying with one of those a fuel to noise
converters in the nose, all I'm looking for is to stay within gliding
distance of a landing spot which allows for a survivable landing.
Sometimes this would be better called a crash field. Otherwise, flying
in the mountains with a single engine aircraft would often not be possible.

I think this makes a difference.

Stefan

[Stefan]

Mark James Boyd wrote:

> I think of unplanned outlandings in the same way I think of
> running out of gas in a power plane.

When soaring, unplanned outlandings are part of the game. Running out of
gas definitely is not.

> For different glider pilots, I think different types of
> "outlandings" may be an emergency or may be an "abnormal" procedure.

For glider pilots, an outlanding is neither an emergency nor an abnormal
procedure. It is a perfectly normal procedure that you have been trained
for. If it's not, you've got a lousy training and are not ready for
cross country, period.

Stefan

[Henryk Birecki]

"Bill Daniels" > wrote:

>
>I have a simple XC rule. Never fly beyond safe gliding distance to a
>known-safe landing site. That doesn't mean I don't go, it means I scout a
>lot of landing sites from the ground. I walk them, measure them and note
>the details in a little book. GPS makes this kind of expedition a lot
>easier and more accurate.
>

It would be really great if you and all others that do things like
that could maybe share the textual results with others. If such
observations could be collected in put in a spreadsheet, or some other
fairly searchable form it would be of great service to all, especially
those that are unfamiliar with an area they happen to come to for a
week or so, or even are just starting to explore XC soaring.

I would be willing if no one else is to be a "translator" that is if
people send me text files, I'll put them in a spreadsheet (anyone that
would like to help....). Logical place to place them would be on the
SSA server, or at the worldwide turnpoint exchange. Failing that I can
still find some space on my server for something like that (I do not
have space for pictures, sorry, but everyone could find home for a
picture or two, and links could be published.)

Henryk Birecki

[Mark James Boyd]

In article >,
Stefan > wrote:
>Mark James Boyd wrote:
>
>> I think of unplanned outlandings in the same way I think of
>> running out of gas in a power plane.
>
>When soaring, unplanned outlandings are part of the game. Running out of
>gas definitely is not.

I don't accept unplanned outlandings as inevitable. Carl Herold has
avoided them for a long time, by using good judgement
and doing his homework. If I had an unplanned outlanding,
I would really chalk it up to my own poor judgement, just as I would
think of running out of gas...

>
>> For different glider pilots, I think different types of
>> "outlandings" may be an emergency or may be an "abnormal" procedure.
>
>For glider pilots, an outlanding is neither an emergency nor an abnormal
>procedure. It is a perfectly normal procedure that you have been trained
>for. If it's not, you've got a lousy training and are not ready for
>cross country, period.

I haven't trained this. I never executed an unplanned outlanding
flying dual. And I'm not planning on it either... ;)

But perhaps this is just semantics. The definition of
an "unplanned outlanding" seems quite different in the
hostile forests of Truckee, vs. the flat farmland of the Calif.
Central Valley...

[Jack]

On 2/25/04 2:06 AM, in article 403c579e$1@darkstar, "Mark James Boyd"
> wrote:


> If I had an unplanned outlanding,
> I would really chalk it up to my
> own poor judgement, just as I would
> think of running out of gas....

Since we are talking about a state of mind (as a set of priorities), no one
can argue with that.

In competition, and even in individual practice/training, others have
priorities which allow for extending themselves beyond the assured and at
least a little way into the realm of chance.

The sailplane land out, per se, cannot be seen as equivalent to fuel
starvation in a powered plane except where pilots of both types
irresponsibly fail to consider the risks and/or act reasonably to minimize
them. The equivalence with running out of gas usually comes when the
sailplane pilot finds his planning and/or execution to be inadequate for
achieving a result to the standards of the community of which he is a
member.

When a combat pilot brings home a ship riddled with holes (or leaves it to
make a smoking hole of its own), whether or not he gets a "dumb ****" award
or an "attaboy" may depend on gun camera film or on how many "friendlies",
on the ground or in the air, owe their survival to his actions: a matter of
risks properly evaluated, priorities established, and goals achieved at an
affordable price.

Of course there are MOH citations for pilots who have gone above and beyond
in a noble cause -- many, if not most, of them rendered posthumously.
Neither SSA Badges, contest points, nor FAI records are awarded on the same
basis.



Jack

[Stefan]

Mark James Boyd wrote:

> But perhaps this is just semantics. The definition of
> an "unplanned outlanding"

Maybe.

If "unplanned" means "it wasn't my intention when I started", then
unplanned outlandings are part of the game. Otherwise, you couldn't go
cross country by definition.

If however "unplanned" means "suddenly I realised that the lift was gone
and I hadn't a plan what to do now", then I agree with you. This is
unacceptable.

Stefan

[Stefan]

Jack wrote:

> When a combat pilot

Why oh why do "the" Americans (apologies to those who don't) have such
high esteem for fighter pilots, killing and war? Isn't soaring about
peace and understanding nature? And how dare you to change the subject
line to "Zen" when you talk about war?

Stefan

[Bert Willing]

Sorry Mark, but Stefan is right.
Outlanding (in a field, not an airstrip) in soaring is not really planned,
but as it is part of the game it needs to be anticipated. The terrain below
you doesn't change that, it changes just the tactics of your
flight/decisions.
If you haven't been trained for it, you are not trained for x-country.
Outlandings happen because of poor judgement of yourself or of the frog
sitting at the meteo office - if they don't happen over a long time, you're
just not trying to get the max distance out of the day (which can be a
personal choice, nothing wrong with that). Remember - good judgement comes
from experience, and experience comes from poor judgements :-)
"Out"landing on an airfield is just another landing.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Mark James Boyd" > a écrit dans le message de
news:403c579e$1@darkstar...
> In article >,
> Stefan > wrote:
> >Mark James Boyd wrote:
> >
> >> I think of unplanned outlandings in the same way I think of
> >> running out of gas in a power plane.
> >
> >When soaring, unplanned outlandings are part of the game. Running out of
> >gas definitely is not.
>
> I don't accept unplanned outlandings as inevitable. Carl Herold has
> avoided them for a long time, by using good judgement
> and doing his homework. If I had an unplanned outlanding,
> I would really chalk it up to my own poor judgement, just as I would
> think of running out of gas...
>
> >
> >> For different glider pilots, I think different types of
> >> "outlandings" may be an emergency or may be an "abnormal" procedure.
> >
> >For glider pilots, an outlanding is neither an emergency nor an abnormal
> >procedure. It is a perfectly normal procedure that you have been trained
> >for. If it's not, you've got a lousy training and are not ready for
> >cross country, period.
>
> I haven't trained this. I never executed an unplanned outlanding
> flying dual. And I'm not planning on it either... ;)
>
> But perhaps this is just semantics. The definition of
> an "unplanned outlanding" seems quite different in the
> hostile forests of Truckee, vs. the flat farmland of the Calif.
> Central Valley...

[Jack]

On 2/25/04 3:44 AM, in article , "Stefan"
> wrote:

> Why oh why do "the" Americans (apologies to those who don't) have such
> high esteem for fighter pilots, killing and war? Isn't soaring about
> peace and understanding nature? And how dare you to change the subject
> line to "Zen" when you talk about war?

Just stay safely behind your mountains and contemplate the strangeness of us
cowboys, Stefan.

We Americans respect fighter pilots because they are expected to continually
strive for the very best that can be achieved in their realm of aviation --
and a very demanding, unforgiving way of life it is, too. There are even a
few fighter pilots in Switzerland I hear. I'd bet that some of them also fly
sailplanes.

"Zen" in a subject line can't be inappropriate when the importance of clear
insight and value properly placed constitutes the true subject of a post.
Zen is never allowing attention to the means to cause you to lose sight of
the ends. Perhaps you will reread my post with that in mind.



Jack

"Zen is a religion which teaches us not to
look backward once the course is decided."

-------------------------------------------------------------
Today's reading assignment: "The Tiger and the Hummingbird"
http://www.afa.org/magazine/valor/0285valor.asp
-------------------------------------------------------------

[Bob Korves]

"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
news:403c579e$1@darkstar...
> I don't accept unplanned outlandings as inevitable. Carl Herold has
> avoided them for a long time, by using good judgement
> and doing his homework.

It probably doesn't hurt to have a Nimbus 3DM, either...
-Bob

[Shawn Curry]

Bill Daniels wrote:

> "Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
> news:403bbce6$1@darkstar...
>
>>Stefan > wrote:
>>
>>>303pilot wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>So, if it is an emergency when a powered aircraft loses power and is
>
> forced
>
>>>>to land, why would it not also be an emergency when a sailplane is
>
> unable to
>
>>>>connect to its source of power and is forced to land?
>>>
>>>Because in a sailplane, at any given moment outlanding is just your plan
>
> B.
>
>> I think of unplanned outlandings in the same way I think of
>>running out of gas in a power plane. If I had lousy fuel
>>gauges, and never checked the fuel levels before flight in
>>power planes, I'd probably only fly airplanes with excellent
>>glide ratios and that I could disassemble and trailer. ;(
>>
>> I think whether an "outlanding" is an emergency has a lot more
>>to do with the pilot than the aircraft or type of activity.
>>
>> For the multi-engine pilot examiners, who've landed dozens of
>>times with an engine that won't restart, single-engine landings
>>aren't emergencies, they're just "abnormal" procedures.
>>
>> For our local examiner and our local 30,000 hr instructor,
>>who've had dozens of engine failures, this is just an "abnormal"
>>procedure. They always fly a profile that allows an assured
>>safe landing, given their experience and abilities, and
>>it's no coincidence that they haven't damaged an aircraft during
>>any of these engine failures.
>>
>> For different glider pilots, I think different types of
>>"outlandings" may be an emergency or may be an "abnormal" procedure.
>>
>> The first time I landed at an airstrip in a glider, and I hadn't
>>planned on landing there, it was an emergency. I didn't know
>>for sure if the glider would be damaged during the landing.
>>There were enough unknowns that I certainly was not completely
>>confident of an assured good outcome.
>>
>> For me now, an "outlanding" at an airstrip, airport, or closed
>>airport I have scouted out and/or landed at before is an
>>"abnormal" procedure, if I hadn't planned to land there during
>>that flight.
>>
>> Having scouted out a lot of strips (in a power plane) that looked
>>good from the air, and then gotten lower and said "no way I'd
>>ever land anything there," I'd consider landing a glider at
>>an unknown airstrip an emergency procedure (for me). I'd
>>also consider landing in a plowed field an emergency
>>procedure (for me). Really just because I haven't done it
>>before and am not completely confident and assured that
>>I can do it without damage. Reading and training is one thing,
>>doing it is another.
>>
>> Carl Herold at
>>www.lvvsa.org/Training/LANDOUT-VER-2b.pdf
>>"Training: An off field landing is an unplanned emergency landing!"
>>
>> If you look at his record, 2 of his first 10 X-C flights damaged
>>a glider during an off field landing. At 154 X-C flights, he damaged
>>a glider off field.
>>
>> My conclusion from his record of "newbie" experience, plus my
>>own experiences and hangar talk, is that "newbie" glider pilots doing
>>early X-C should plan and execute cross-country flights so that
>>they land only at suitable airstrips (CH discusses this in
>>more detail). After a dozen+ experiences with crosswinds,
>>wondering if the wingspan is wider than the runway, vehicles
>>or other obstructions on the strip, and a few trailer and
>>aero-retrieves, I think a pilot then has a much better idea
>>what the risks and constraints are for a safe landing off field.
>>Will they then choose to accept that risk and
>>accept new landouts? Perhaps...
>>
>> One seldom discussed option is to scout out the landouts in a
>>powered airplane. Some towplanes are insured for dual instruction
>>also. Take the glider pilot (or 3) along the route and land/low pass
>>at each airstrip and airport near home. For $100 split 3 ways,
>>this seems like a great preview of things to come.
>>
>> 61.93 requirements don't specify the X-C training for students
>>needs to be in a glider, so do it in a power plane instead.
>>More flexibility, can cover more airports in less time, and
>>it takes the mystery out of outlandings for newbie pilots
>>who've never landed anywhere but home. Then, if the CFIG
>>is really comfortable with the student, sign them off for
>>an X-C. Should you do a landing at an alien airstrip
>>dual first? Maybe. Results may vary...
>>
>> Cross-country is fun. The SSA and others wonder why
>>newbies don't do it more. Simple. They've never done it
>>before so it's risky. We can either talk about it a lot
>>and wait for perfect conditions and do a lot of planning
>>and then struggle to fly dual and then pay for a tow
>>home, or:
>>
>>we can just get in a dang airplane (or motorglider) and
>>do a "scouting" cross-country. It's worked for me...
>>
>>
>
> Good post, Mark.
>
> I have a simple XC rule. Never fly beyond safe gliding distance to a
> known-safe landing site. That doesn't mean I don't go, it means I scout a
> lot of landing sites from the ground. I walk them, measure them and note
> the details in a little book. GPS makes this kind of expedition a lot
> easier and more accurate.
>
> There is a web site where this kind of information can be uploaded for all
> to use. I plan to be sending them a lot of information and pictures. I
> think everybody should. It is: http://www.airstripamerica.com/
>
> Bill Daniels
>
Bill, I'm having a heck of a time searching for strips in Colorado. All
I get is a listing of the 1st 25 fields with Colorado in the name
including onse in AZ and TX. I can't switch it to show "100 matches",
it just defaults to 25. Typical search commands like "-TX" don't work
either. I sent them a comment to this effect. Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Shawn

[Shawn Curry]

Jack wrote:

> On 2/25/04 3:44 AM, in article , "Stefan"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Why oh why do "the" Americans (apologies to those who don't) have such
>>high esteem for fighter pilots, killing and war? Isn't soaring about
>>peace and understanding nature? And how dare you to change the subject
>>line to "Zen" when you talk about war?
>
>
> Just stay safely behind your mountains and contemplate the strangeness of us
> cowboys, Stefan.
>
> We Americans respect fighter pilots because they are expected to continually
> strive for the very best that can be achieved in their realm of aviation --
> and a very demanding, unforgiving way of life it is, too.

Yeah, Tailhook is a bitch ;-)

[Mark James Boyd]

In article >,
Stefan > wrote:
>Mark James Boyd wrote:
>
>> But perhaps this is just semantics. The definition of
>> an "unplanned outlanding"
>
>Maybe.
>
>If "unplanned" means "it wasn't my intention when I started", then
>unplanned outlandings are part of the game. Otherwise, you couldn't go
>cross country by definition.
>
>If however "unplanned" means "suddenly I realised that the lift was gone
>and I hadn't a plan what to do now", then I agree with you. This is
>unacceptable.
>
>Stefan

Yes, yes, yes. Exactly. From reading your posts and agreeing with
them, I suspected we just needed to get to this little bit of
precision. Thanks for your patience here...

One resource that really has helped in recent years (at least around
here in the Western US) is a good database for potential landouts.
Carl Herold has done some great work in this area,
and between him and local avid soarers we have some remarkable
databases. For guys like me that prefer to aerotow out of a
narrow duster strip than trailer out of some random field,
these databases have really helped improve my alternatives and
allowed me to fly at lower altitudes (and therefore more days)
while still feeling I have safe options.

These databases also list a lot of reliable thermals
(elevators) pilots have found over the years.
Another excellent resource.

It's also been very easy for me to fly a power plane to each strip
to check it out. This has been extremely valuable. Only once have
I found a strip that I didn't feel safe landing, and instead I drove
there, measured and surveyed (with my little GPS), and then said
"boy I'm glad I didn't land there."

For example, a new landout called "Indian Valley" popped up recently
at www.soarhollister.com/images/pdf/hollister500k_8_11.pdf
I haven't had a chance to scout it yet, but it is in a crucial location
where I've been limited from exploring before (due to lack
of confidence in a safe outcome). If it pans out,
it will allow me to explore a potential convergence/sea
breeze front on certain days.

Perhaps best of all, I now feel comfortable flying on perfectly
cloudless days. It's been amazing how many more soaring opportunities
I have had once I had a really firm grasp of landout options
and no longer needed marker clouds as a crutch. Flying on clear days
has certainly been more challenging, but so few pilots do it,
I get the towpilot and glider all to myself all day :)
------------ And now a word from our sponsor ---------------------
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[Mark James Boyd]

Bert Willing > wrote:

>Remember - good judgement comes
>from experience, and experience comes from poor judgements :-)

This is true. However, I prefer to get good judgement from
the experience and poor judgement...OF OTHER PILOTS! :P

I don't feel the need to repeat Carl Herold's early
experiences damaging gliders to come up with his
conclusions. Because of my opposable thumbs and
mouse, I can simply read about the dangers he describes
and spend a bit more effort to avoid his mistakes.

I've also taken his comments about ridge soaring to
heart. Perhaps this limits my excitement or capabilities,
but that's the part of the risk-acceptance spectrum where
I fall...and I still don't find my soaring particularly
conservative.

I suppose for every pilot, what chances you are willing to
take is a very personal choice, and requires a lot
of self-evaluation. This is one of the best aspects of
soaring: it is an excellent mirror...

[Kirk Stant]

"Bert Willing" > wrote in message >...
> Sorry Mark, but Stefan is right.
> Outlanding (in a field, not an airstrip) in soaring is not really planned,
> but as it is part of the game it needs to be anticipated. The terrain below
> you doesn't change that, it changes just the tactics of your
> flight/decisions.
> If you haven't been trained for it, you are not trained for x-country.
> Outlandings happen because of poor judgement of yourself or of the frog
> sitting at the meteo office - if they don't happen over a long time, you're
> just not trying to get the max distance out of the day (which can be a
> personal choice, nothing wrong with that). Remember - good judgement comes
> from experience, and experience comes from poor judgements :-)
> "Out"landing on an airfield is just another landing.
>
> --
> Bert Willing
>
> ASW20 "TW"

To use the power plane fuel analogy a bit differently:

When I go XC, I plan on having enough fuel (lift=altitude) to complete
my task, based on the forecast, etc. If I get low, or the forecast
was wrong, or I screw up, then I plan on using a known airfield (or
sometimes a really good known field) to landout on. This is the
equivalent of having to divert due to weather, unplanned winds, bad
fuel management - I land at a safe location before running out of
altitude (fuel); and I always aim for having a safe divert field in
ranges (just like you keep track on your divert fuel). If, however, I
really screw up and am forced to landout at an unknown field, then
that borders on a forced landing due to running out of gas (for
whatever reason). Sometimes, it may just be an annoyance (good fields
available); sometimes it can be a real emergency (tree or water
landing due to really stupid inflight decisions!).

Like all flying, preflight planning pays off. If you are not
knowledgable of enough good landout fields where you are planning to
fly, then you haven't done your preflight planning. There is
absolutely no excuse for blasting off into the unknown, hoping to find
a good place to land when you need it. If you want to do that, use a
paraglider!

Kirk

[Bill Daniels]

"Shawn Curry" > wrote in message
news:2A4%b.56185$Xp.267376@attbi_s54...
> Bill Daniels wrote:
>
> > "Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
> > news:403bbce6$1@darkstar...
> >
> >>Stefan > wrote:
> >>
> >>>303pilot wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>So, if it is an emergency when a powered aircraft loses power and is
> >
> > forced
> >
> >>>>to land, why would it not also be an emergency when a sailplane is
> >
> > unable to
> >
> >>>>connect to its source of power and is forced to land?
> >>>
> >>>Because in a sailplane, at any given moment outlanding is just your
plan
> >
> > B.
> >
> >> I think of unplanned outlandings in the same way I think of
> >>running out of gas in a power plane. If I had lousy fuel
> >>gauges, and never checked the fuel levels before flight in
> >>power planes, I'd probably only fly airplanes with excellent
> >>glide ratios and that I could disassemble and trailer. ;(
> >>
> >> I think whether an "outlanding" is an emergency has a lot more
> >>to do with the pilot than the aircraft or type of activity.
> >>
> >> For the multi-engine pilot examiners, who've landed dozens of
> >>times with an engine that won't restart, single-engine landings
> >>aren't emergencies, they're just "abnormal" procedures.
> >>
> >> For our local examiner and our local 30,000 hr instructor,
> >>who've had dozens of engine failures, this is just an "abnormal"
> >>procedure. They always fly a profile that allows an assured
> >>safe landing, given their experience and abilities, and
> >>it's no coincidence that they haven't damaged an aircraft during
> >>any of these engine failures.
> >>
> >> For different glider pilots, I think different types of
> >>"outlandings" may be an emergency or may be an "abnormal" procedure.
> >>
> >> The first time I landed at an airstrip in a glider, and I hadn't
> >>planned on landing there, it was an emergency. I didn't know
> >>for sure if the glider would be damaged during the landing.
> >>There were enough unknowns that I certainly was not completely
> >>confident of an assured good outcome.
> >>
> >> For me now, an "outlanding" at an airstrip, airport, or closed
> >>airport I have scouted out and/or landed at before is an
> >>"abnormal" procedure, if I hadn't planned to land there during
> >>that flight.
> >>
> >> Having scouted out a lot of strips (in a power plane) that looked
> >>good from the air, and then gotten lower and said "no way I'd
> >>ever land anything there," I'd consider landing a glider at
> >>an unknown airstrip an emergency procedure (for me). I'd
> >>also consider landing in a plowed field an emergency
> >>procedure (for me). Really just because I haven't done it
> >>before and am not completely confident and assured that
> >>I can do it without damage. Reading and training is one thing,
> >>doing it is another.
> >>
> >> Carl Herold at
> >>www.lvvsa.org/Training/LANDOUT-VER-2b.pdf
> >>"Training: An off field landing is an unplanned emergency landing!"
> >>
> >> If you look at his record, 2 of his first 10 X-C flights damaged
> >>a glider during an off field landing. At 154 X-C flights, he damaged
> >>a glider off field.
> >>
> >> My conclusion from his record of "newbie" experience, plus my
> >>own experiences and hangar talk, is that "newbie" glider pilots doing
> >>early X-C should plan and execute cross-country flights so that
> >>they land only at suitable airstrips (CH discusses this in
> >>more detail). After a dozen+ experiences with crosswinds,
> >>wondering if the wingspan is wider than the runway, vehicles
> >>or other obstructions on the strip, and a few trailer and
> >>aero-retrieves, I think a pilot then has a much better idea
> >>what the risks and constraints are for a safe landing off field.
> >>Will they then choose to accept that risk and
> >>accept new landouts? Perhaps...
> >>
> >> One seldom discussed option is to scout out the landouts in a
> >>powered airplane. Some towplanes are insured for dual instruction
> >>also. Take the glider pilot (or 3) along the route and land/low pass
> >>at each airstrip and airport near home. For $100 split 3 ways,
> >>this seems like a great preview of things to come.
> >>
> >> 61.93 requirements don't specify the X-C training for students
> >>needs to be in a glider, so do it in a power plane instead.
> >>More flexibility, can cover more airports in less time, and
> >>it takes the mystery out of outlandings for newbie pilots
> >>who've never landed anywhere but home. Then, if the CFIG
> >>is really comfortable with the student, sign them off for
> >>an X-C. Should you do a landing at an alien airstrip
> >>dual first? Maybe. Results may vary...
> >>
> >> Cross-country is fun. The SSA and others wonder why
> >>newbies don't do it more. Simple. They've never done it
> >>before so it's risky. We can either talk about it a lot
> >>and wait for perfect conditions and do a lot of planning
> >>and then struggle to fly dual and then pay for a tow
> >>home, or:
> >>
> >>we can just get in a dang airplane (or motorglider) and
> >>do a "scouting" cross-country. It's worked for me...
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Good post, Mark.
> >
> > I have a simple XC rule. Never fly beyond safe gliding distance to a
> > known-safe landing site. That doesn't mean I don't go, it means I
scout a
> > lot of landing sites from the ground. I walk them, measure them and
note
> > the details in a little book. GPS makes this kind of expedition a lot
> > easier and more accurate.
> >
> > There is a web site where this kind of information can be uploaded for
all
> > to use. I plan to be sending them a lot of information and pictures. I
> > think everybody should. It is: http://www.airstripamerica.com/
> >
> > Bill Daniels
> >
> Bill, I'm having a heck of a time searching for strips in Colorado. All
> I get is a listing of the 1st 25 fields with Colorado in the name
> including onse in AZ and TX. I can't switch it to show "100 matches",
> it just defaults to 25. Typical search commands like "-TX" don't work
> either. I sent them a comment to this effect. Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
> Shawn

Just enter the nearest city name. i.e. "Salida".

Shawn, are you going to scout some strips in Colorado? Not to duplicate
work, I'm starting in the San Luis Valley with a road trip in March, or as
soon as the snow melts on the back country strips. I need more landout
options on a line from Pagosa Springs to East Blanca Peak.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels

[Shawn Curry]

>>>I have a simple XC rule. Never fly beyond safe gliding distance to a
>>>known-safe landing site. That doesn't mean I don't go, it means I
>
> scout a
>
>>>lot of landing sites from the ground. I walk them, measure them and
>
> note
>
>>>the details in a little book. GPS makes this kind of expedition a lot
>>>easier and more accurate.
>>>
>>>There is a web site where this kind of information can be uploaded for
>
> all
>
>>>to use. I plan to be sending them a lot of information and pictures. I
>>>think everybody should. It is: http://www.airstripamerica.com/
>>>
>>>Bill Daniels
>>>
>>
>>Bill, I'm having a heck of a time searching for strips in Colorado. All
>>I get is a listing of the 1st 25 fields with Colorado in the name
>>including onse in AZ and TX. I can't switch it to show "100 matches",
>>it just defaults to 25. Typical search commands like "-TX" don't work
>>either. I sent them a comment to this effect. Any suggestions?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Shawn
>
>
> Just enter the nearest city name. i.e. "Salida".
>
> Shawn, are you going to scout some strips in Colorado? Not to duplicate
> work, I'm starting in the San Luis Valley with a road trip in March, or as
> soon as the snow melts on the back country strips. I need more landout
> options on a line from Pagosa Springs to East Blanca Peak.
>
> Bill Daniels

That's part of why I asked. I'm most curious of the area north of what
you mention, up to Taylor Park or so.
Stu has done some scouting. I'll forward this to him in case he's not
lurking.

Shawn

[Jack]

On 2/25/04 11:10 AM, in article UF4%b.120428$jk2.517554@attbi_s53, "Shawn
Curry" > wrote:

> ...Tailhook is a bitch

Jealousy is unbecoming.


Jack
--------------------------------------------------
Freedom Isn't Free! See the Future in History:
bondage > faith > courage > liberty > abundance >
complacency > apathy > dependence > bondage.
--------------------------------------------------

[Shawn Curry]

Jack wrote:

> On 2/25/04 11:10 AM, in article UF4%b.120428$jk2.517554@attbi_s53, "Shawn
> Curry" > wrote:
>
>
>>...Tailhook is a bitch
>
>
> Jealousy is unbecoming.

'Scuse me? Slobbering drunk rapist? Never needed that to get laid thanks.

[Bob Lepp]

>
> Why oh why do "the" Americans (apologies to those who don't) have such
> high esteem for fighter pilots, killing and war? Isn't soaring about
> peace and understanding nature? And how dare you to change the subject
> line to "Zen" when you talk about war?
>
> Stefan

What you may wish to do to understand this, as a non-American (I'm
not), is to visit Washington DC as I did today, and go to Arlington,
and visit JFK's memorial, and RFK's and the Challenger memorial, and
the Tomb of the Unknowns, and read a few of the 250,000 tombstones...
Then, stand back, close your eyes, and imagine the world (north
America, Europe, many places) as it may be today without these people
in it. We watched a 19 shot, 2 Howitzer tribute executed by a squad of
gentleman who showed absolute pride in their task. We heard of a
recent funeral wherein a B52 flew from South Dakota to Arlington just
for a flyby in respect, part of the funeral rites of a serviceman.

The 'Zen and the Art of.....' inference may come from '....Motorcycle
Maintenance' book some of us enjoyed many years ago. It speaks to the
"difference" with which two people can view exactly the same fact...
the BMW owner who has zero mechanical ability can appreciate the bike,
yet can drive a Honda owner crazy since he does not appreciate the
technology of his ride. I'm guessing some parallel to glider pilots
and how they 'handle' the concept of an outlanding. For me, I learned
nothing until I learned I had to expect an outlanding if I was to
progress. For anyone to assume an outlanding is bad judgement has not
really figured it out yet...sometimes the lift just is not where it is
expected.

Heavy stuff... we need spring!


All very serious stuff.