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The Treasure Coast Soaring Club will soon have a new house thermal. Florida Power And Light is in the process of building a 400 acre solar power plant within 3/4 mile from our airport. Heat from this type of farm should make for a great house thermal. Anyone out there with experience flying over solar farms? Thanks, Bob
Dan Marotta
June 26th 17, 02:57 PM
I tried the solar panel farm between Jean and Primm, NV during one of
the ground launch weekends off of Roach Dry Lake and found nothing
though that could have simply been due to the airmass that day. I did
thermal nicely over one of those solar plants which directs solar energy
onto a tower containing, I think, liquid sodium which is used to heat
water to steam and thence to spin generators. Glad I didn't get low there...
On 6/26/2017 2:23 AM, wrote:
> The Treasure Coast Soaring Club will soon have a new house thermal. Florida Power And Light is in the process of building a 400 acre solar power plant within 3/4 mile from our airport. Heat from this type of farm should make for a great house thermal. Anyone out there with experience flying over solar farms? Thanks, Bob
--
Dan, 5J
6PK
June 26th 17, 03:21 PM
On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 1:23:32 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> The Treasure Coast Soaring Club will soon have a new house thermal. Florida Power And Light is in the process of building a 400 acre solar power plant within 3/4 mile from our airport. Heat from this type of farm should make for a great house thermal. Anyone out there with experience flying over solar farms? Thanks, Bob
One would think it should but it's hit and miss like most spots that should or could.....:-)
Tango Whisky
June 26th 17, 04:43 PM
Le lundi 26 juin 2017 16:21:43 UTC+2, 6PK a écritÂ*:
> On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 1:23:32 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > The Treasure Coast Soaring Club will soon have a new house thermal. Florida Power And Light is in the process of building a 400 acre solar power plant within 3/4 mile from our airport. Heat from this type of farm should make for a great house thermal. Anyone out there with experience flying over solar farms? Thanks, Bob
Well, there is an issue with physics ... ;-) A good part of the sunlight is absorbed by the solar panels and transformed into electricity, and *not* into heat.
Bert "TW"
Martin Gregorie[_5_]
June 26th 17, 04:58 PM
On Mon, 26 Jun 2017 07:21:39 -0700, 6PK wrote:
> On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 1:23:32 AM UTC-7,
> wrote:
>> The Treasure Coast Soaring Club will soon have a new house thermal.
>> Florida Power And Light is in the process of building a 400 acre solar
>> power plant within 3/4 mile from our airport. Heat from this type of
>> farm should make for a great house thermal. Anyone out there with
>> experience flying over solar farms? Thanks, Bob
>
> One would think it should but it's hit and miss like most spots that
> should or could.....:-)
Surely that depends on the overall reflectivity of the solar farm
averaged over its area and over all wavelengths: if its less reflective
than the surrounding area then it will be warmer. But that is only when
its not generating. If the system is generating and exporting electricity
that reduces the energy available for warming the system, so its average
temperature should be reduced as a result.
--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
Dave Nadler
June 26th 17, 05:33 PM
On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 11:43:29 AM UTC-4, Tango Whisky wrote:
> Well, there is an issue with physics ... ;-)
Really now Bert.
This is R.A.S. - best not to annoy the inmates with facts...
On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 4:23:32 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> The Treasure Coast Soaring Club will soon have a new house thermal. Florida Power And Light is in the process of building a 400 acre solar power plant within 3/4 mile from our airport. Heat from this type of farm should make for a great house thermal. Anyone out there with experience flying over solar farms? Thanks, Bob
PVT solar panels produce electricity and heat at the same time. It would be very unusual that a 400 acre PVT facility would not produce a constant boomer during solar absorption.
Roy B.
June 26th 17, 11:39 PM
Sorry to disappoint, but I have a glider in South Africa and fly regularly over the Letsatsi solar park which is a 247 acre solar farm north of Bloemfontein SA (on the Dealsville Road). It was built 3 years ago but really doesn't contribute much to thermal activity in the area.
What I have found does work (both in SA and around the world) are the big metal grain silos found on most large farms which (especially when full) get very hot and seem to consistently focus thermals either right over or just downwind of them. That's where I want to be when I am low and scratching.
ROY
On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 4:23:32 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> The Treasure Coast Soaring Club will soon have a new house thermal. Florida Power And Light is in the process of building a 400 acre solar power plant within 3/4 mile from our airport. Heat from this type of farm should make for a great house thermal. Anyone out there with experience flying over solar farms? Thanks, Bob
lets make this somewhat simple, the temp of the solar panes on top of the hangar today was in excess of 115 degrees F. I measured the temp reading with a heat gun. The panels number about 16, and the output is a max 8kw. I don't have the output capacity of this project, but I would guess that 100 acres of solar farm could produce 20 MW therefore 400 acres would be 80MW. I would think that if those panels produced the same amount of heat as the ones on the hangar roof and heat travels up, I would assume that we would get some thermal activity from the project.
On 27/06/2017 01:43, Tango Whisky wrote:
> Well, there is an issue with physics ... ;-) A good part of the sunlight is absorbed by the solar panels and transformed into electricity, and *not* into heat.
>
> Bert "TW"
No. Only a miniscule amount of the sunlight is turned into electricity.
At this level, (electricity out / total solar energy in) the efficiency
of PV panels is *buggerall*.
The solar farm will probably not only not produce thermals, it will
increase your energy costs. Shift to France where they have cheap
nuclear AND you can go gliding in the alps! :)
--
GC
Dave Walsh
June 27th 17, 09:49 AM
At 05:01 27 June 2017, wrote:
>On 27/06/2017 01:43, Tango Whisky wrote:
>
>> Well, there is an issue with physics ... ;-) A good part of
the sunlight
>is absorbed by the solar panels and transformed into
electricity, and *not*
>into heat.
>>
>> Bert "TW"
>
>No. Only a miniscule amount of the sunlight is turned into
electricity.
>At this level, (electricity out / total solar energy in) the
efficiency
>of PV panels is *buggerall*.
>
>The solar farm will probably not only not produce thermals,
it will
>increase your energy costs. Shift to France where they
have cheap
>nuclear AND you can go gliding in the alps! :)
Yes: you can fly in the Alps in France.
No: France does not have "cheap nuclear" as will become
clear when the real costs of decommissioning all this nuclear
junk is added to the equation. The real cost will be bourn by
the French (possibly EU) taxpayer; the actual electricity price
to the consumer will still look "cheap". Oh and in an attempt
to look "Green" the French heavily subsidise solar, just like
the US and UK so we're paying for that too. The real
background to the current French nuclear power generation
was the French desire to have the bomb.
Lastly I've never found the many solar arrays around in the
Southern Alps to be especially good thermal sources: in a
flat land scenario they might well be useful.
My view is that Earth is already Nuclear powered, it's called
the Sun and at 93 million miles away it's exactly in the right
place.
Tango Whisky
June 27th 17, 10:11 AM
Le mardi 27 juin 2017 07:02:56 UTC+2, a écritÂ*:
> No. Only a miniscule amount of the sunlight is turned into electricity.
> At this level, (electricity out / total solar energy in) the efficiency
> of PV panels is *buggerall*.
>
> The solar farm will probably not only not produce thermals, it will
> increase your energy costs. Shift to France where they have cheap
> nuclear AND you can go gliding in the alps! :)
Well, physics doesn't seem to be part of your world. Today's photovoltaic solar panels run at an efficiency of about 20%. The definition of efficiency is electric power produced, divided by incident solar power. These 20% of the incident solar power are not available for heating.
And if you call nuclear power "cheap", economics does seem to bother you either...
As for the French Alps (where you see solar farms popping up everywhere) - that's where I fly most of the time.
Martin Gregorie[_5_]
June 27th 17, 11:57 AM
On Tue, 27 Jun 2017 02:11:21 -0700, Tango Whisky wrote:
> Well, physics doesn't seem to be part of your world. Today's
> photovoltaic solar panels run at an efficiency of about 20%. The
> definition of efficiency is electric power produced, divided by incident
> solar power. These 20% of the incident solar power are not available for
> heating.
>
Indeed. There's a smallish solar panel farm installed across the road
from where I fly. I haven't noticed any thermals (or Cu forming) above
it.
OTOH many years ago I got a 600 ft climb late in a cloudy, still, summer
afternoon from a stationary 100m diameter patch of sunlight on an
otherwise shaded ploughed field. That was in an SZD Junior.
--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
On 27/06/2017 19:11, Tango Whisky wrote:
> Le mardi 27 juin 2017 07:02:56 UTC+2, a écrit :
>> No. Only a miniscule amount of the sunlight is turned into electricity.
>> At this level, (electricity out / total solar energy in) the efficiency
>> of PV panels is *buggerall*.
>>
>> The solar farm will probably not only not produce thermals, it will
>> increase your energy costs. Shift to France where they have cheap
>> nuclear AND you can go gliding in the alps! :)
>
> Well, physics doesn't seem to be part of your world. Today's photovoltaic solar panels run at an efficiency of about 20%. The definition of efficiency is electric power produced, divided by incident solar power. These 20% of the incident solar power are not available for heating.
>
> And if you call nuclear power "cheap", economics does seem to bother you either...
>
> As for the French Alps (where you see solar farms popping up everywhere) - that's where I fly most of the time.
Physics and economics are both a good part of my world. You're just
sniffy because I see it differently from you. :)
Efficiency from solar panels is actually about 15-16% at best and when
new. And of course it's hard to keep those panels facing the sun the
whole 24 hours and the output is also *buggerall* in a lot of places for
half the year as well. Overall? *Miniscule* is a good word.
Where your physics - and economics - fall apart is when seeing in the
dark and not freezing at night is factored in. Then the coal or oil
fired power stations - which would be both cheap and bloody efficient
during the day as well - really come into their own and make it clear
that the PV panels are a just a first world sop to a warped sense of
morality, defective understanding of atmospheric science and gullibility
in the face of mass media hype... :) :)
....and yes, I know they're popping up all over, but lots of people being
stupid doesn't lessen the degree of each one's stupidity.
--
GC
Tango Whisky
June 27th 17, 01:01 PM
Le mardi 27 juin 2017 13:33:56 UTC+2, a écritÂ*:
> On 27/06/2017 19:11, Tango Whisky wrote:
> > Le mardi 27 juin 2017 07:02:56 UTC+2, a écrit :
> >> No. Only a miniscule amount of the sunlight is turned into electricity.
> >> At this level, (electricity out / total solar energy in) the efficiency
> >> of PV panels is *buggerall*.
> >>
> >> The solar farm will probably not only not produce thermals, it will
> >> increase your energy costs. Shift to France where they have cheap
> >> nuclear AND you can go gliding in the alps! :)
> >
> > Well, physics doesn't seem to be part of your world. Today's photovoltaic solar panels run at an efficiency of about 20%. The definition of efficiency is electric power produced, divided by incident solar power. These 20% of the incident solar power are not available for heating.
> >
> > And if you call nuclear power "cheap", economics does seem to bother you either...
> >
> > As for the French Alps (where you see solar farms popping up everywhere) - that's where I fly most of the time.
>
> Physics and economics are both a good part of my world. You're just
> sniffy because I see it differently from you. :)
>
> Efficiency from solar panels is actually about 15-16% at best and when
> new. And of course it's hard to keep those panels facing the sun the
> whole 24 hours and the output is also *buggerall* in a lot of places for
> half the year as well. Overall? *Miniscule* is a good word.
>
> Where your physics - and economics - fall apart is when seeing in the
> dark and not freezing at night is factored in. Then the coal or oil
> fired power stations - which would be both cheap and bloody efficient
> during the day as well - really come into their own and make it clear
> that the PV panels are a just a first world sop to a warped sense of
> morality, defective understanding of atmospheric science and gullibility
> in the face of mass media hype... :) :)
>
> ...and yes, I know they're popping up all over, but lots of people being
> stupid doesn't lessen the degree of each one's stupidity.
> --
> GC
It seems that you don't really get it, but that's actually not my problem. Just go ahead and enjoy all those PV thermals ;-)
And no, I'm not necessarily promoting PV energy, I just stated that nuclear energy is not cheap at all.
End of discussion for me.
Bert TW
Tango Eight
June 27th 17, 01:07 PM
Rainy day mental exercise...
Calculate the mass of a thermal.
Calculate the heat capacity of a thermal.
Calculate the energy input required to heat the thermal some small amount for buoyancy, say 2 deg C.
Compare to the heat output of terrestrial sources. A Nuc powerplant is typically a few GW (thermal). Most other anthropogenic sources are smaller.
Sit back in awe and ponder the wonders of nature.
I'm a big fan of gravitationally confined fusion power.
-Evan Ludeman / T8
Roy B.
June 27th 17, 01:07 PM
OK - back to the subject at hand (solar farms as thermal generators). I'm not an engineer or physicist but I suspect that part of the consideration is the mass of the structure and it's ability to hold enough heat to effectively transfer it to the air around it. So plowed fields, rock faces on mountains, and heavy metal silos do well to form thermals. But the light weight frames that hold the solar panels don't hold the heat well - and they shade the ground below them. And despite what people think they "should' do - they really don't generate thermals very well.
ROY
Steve Thompson[_2_]
June 27th 17, 01:11 PM
My experience has been that very large solar arrays can
be good sources frequently mentioned on the radio by
climbing gliders. eg on the plateau of Valensole, near
Vinon. Perhaps because the panels do get hot quicker
than the surrounding areas of land.
On the "thread crept" topic, though obviously Solar PV
can't work at night, it does significantly substitute for
some very dirty sources when the sun is shining. At the
moment UK and French PV is generating twice as much
power as coal fired, and if you do the sums, that's a lot
of coal unburnt - which I feel has to be good. (I reckon
about 400kg/hr generating 1MW, which incidentally is
about 1 RR Merlin at full chat.)
For real figures see http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
and in the top left corner of that, a link for France
At 11:33 27 June 2017, wrote:
>On 27/06/2017 19:11, Tango Whisky wrote:
>> Le mardi 27 juin 2017 07:02:56 UTC+2,
a écrit :
>>> No. Only a miniscule amount of the sunlight is
turned into electricity.
>>> At this level, (electricity out / total solar energy in)
the efficiency
>>> of PV panels is *buggerall*.
>>>
>>> The solar farm will probably not only not produce
thermals, it will
>>> increase your energy costs. Shift to France where
they have cheap
>>> nuclear AND you can go gliding in the alps! :)
>>
>> Well, physics doesn't seem to be part of your world.
Today's photovoltaic
>solar panels run at an efficiency of about 20%. The
definition of
>efficiency is electric power produced, divided by
incident solar power.
>These 20% of the incident solar power are not available
for heating.
>>
>> And if you call nuclear power "cheap", economics
does seem to bother you
>either...
>>
>> As for the French Alps (where you see solar farms
popping up everywhere)
>- that's where I fly most of the time.
>
>Physics and economics are both a good part of my
world. You're just
>sniffy because I see it differently from you. :)
>
>Efficiency from solar panels is actually about 15-16% at
best and when
>new. And of course it's hard to keep those panels
facing the sun the
>whole 24 hours and the output is also *buggerall* in a
lot of places for
>half the year as well. Overall? *Miniscule* is a good
word.
>
>Where your physics - and economics - fall apart is
when seeing in the
>dark and not freezing at night is factored in. Then the
coal or oil
>fired power stations - which would be both cheap and
bloody efficient
>during the day as well - really come into their own and
make it clear
>that the PV panels are a just a first world sop to a
warped sense of
>morality, defective understanding of atmospheric
science and gullibility
>in the face of mass media hype... :) :)
>
>....and yes, I know they're popping up all over, but lots
of people being
>stupid doesn't lessen the degree of each one's stupidity.
>--
>GC
>
Question: How much energy does it take to produce a solar array (Aluminum mining, refining, manufacture, Silicon panel manufacture, etc.)? How does it compare to the energy output of the array over its life?
Paul Agnew
June 27th 17, 07:50 PM
Question: Does the previous question add anything to the discussion on solar farms creating thermals? There has to be a forum out there that is better suited for environmental debates. Let's focus on soaring.
I routinely fly high over the Florida Power & Light solar farm near the northeast side of Lake Okeechobee. Occasionally, there are pronounced markers indicating a thermal is cooking off the panels. It's a smaller solar farm, so I'm really eager to see what the mega-solar farm does for us.
Paul A.
On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 11:50:59 AM UTC-7, Paul Agnew wrote:
> Question: Does the previous question add anything to the discussion on solar farms creating thermals? There has to be a forum out there that is better suited for environmental debates. Let's focus on soaring.
>
> I routinely fly high over the Florida Power & Light solar farm near the northeast side of Lake Okeechobee. Occasionally, there are pronounced markers indicating a thermal is cooking off the panels. It's a smaller solar farm, so I'm really eager to see what the mega-solar farm does for us.
>
> Paul A.
I've flown over the (boiler on a stick) solar plants near Primm, NV and haven't found they produce much lift. Haven't seen a cloud over them either.
But have thermaled over the cooling tower of the Pottstown, PA nuclear power plant. First watched a dirigible fly over the towers... The deck angle went to 45 degrees up, leveled out, 45 down, leveled out. And there was a cloud. All good indicators.
But these days the latter type have security people who think "shoot first, ask questions later" (there was an article about it in Soaring) so they aren't as useful for low saves as they used to be.
I live and fly near many Gigawatts of PV panels. Believe one site is a good thermal source, but it wasn't bad before the plant went in.
You'd think PV panels should be like an asphalt parking lot (car park), but the panels are not mounted on the ground. I know the roof of my house is cooler under the panels than the unprotected roof. Wonder if the cooler air underneath panels being brought into the thermal weakens it?
Perhaps they're better lift sources in the evening?
Jim
Dave Walsh
June 27th 17, 11:10 PM
Ah, the good old days when you could legally fly over French
Nuclear power stations; now they were really good reliable
thermal sources! Nowadays rumour has it that some sites have
ground-to-air missiles as part of their defence; they all have
exclusion zones.
The reason why so little coal is burned in France is that 85+%
of French power is nuclear (that's what it says on my electricity
bill). The only reason that some power is solar/wind generated
is that the French do not want to be seen as the most non-
Green country in Europe. France has the capability to be 100%
nuclear, it just doesn't want to be as not everyone is convinced
that Nuclear is Green/Renewable.
I will try the Vinon solar array, never noticed it to be good or
reliable but that's probably just my crap thermal technique.
When ETA gets going there might be a huge exclusion zone
down there to spoil the fun.
And here's yet another reason to be anti-nuclear power: being
mostly on rivers I'd guess they are near impossible to defend
against terrorists.
On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 7:33:56 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> On 27/06/2017 19:11, Tango Whisky wrote:
> > Le mardi 27 juin 2017 07:02:56 UTC+2, a écrit :
> >> No. Only a miniscule amount of the sunlight is turned into electricity.
> >> At this level, (electricity out / total solar energy in) the efficiency
> >> of PV panels is *buggerall*.
> >>
> >> The solar farm will probably not only not produce thermals, it will
> >> increase your energy costs. Shift to France where they have cheap
> >> nuclear AND you can go gliding in the alps! :)
> >
> > Well, physics doesn't seem to be part of your world. Today's photovoltaic solar panels run at an efficiency of about 20%. The definition of efficiency is electric power produced, divided by incident solar power. These 20% of the incident solar power are not available for heating.
> >
> > And if you call nuclear power "cheap", economics does seem to bother you either...
> >
> > As for the French Alps (where you see solar farms popping up everywhere) - that's where I fly most of the time.
>
> Physics and economics are both a good part of my world. You're just
> sniffy because I see it differently from you. :)
>
> Efficiency from solar panels is actually about 15-16% at best and when
> new. And of course it's hard to keep those panels facing the sun the
> whole 24 hours and the output is also *buggerall* in a lot of places for
> half the year as well. Overall? *Miniscule* is a good word.
>
> Where your physics - and economics - fall apart is when seeing in the
> dark and not freezing at night is factored in. Then the coal or oil
> fired power stations - which would be both cheap and bloody efficient
> during the day as well - really come into their own and make it clear
> that the PV panels are a just a first world sop to a warped sense of
> morality, defective understanding of atmospheric science and gullibility
> in the face of mass media hype... :) :)
>
> ...and yes, I know they're popping up all over, but lots of people being
> stupid doesn't lessen the degree of each one's stupidity.
> --
> GC
So does anyone else find it ironic that a pilot that flies hundreds of kg of sailplane around the sky for hundreds of km on solar power - is not a fan of solar power?
Chris
son_of_flubber
June 28th 17, 02:59 AM
On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 4:23:32 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> The Treasure Coast Soaring Club will soon have a new house thermal. Florida Power And Light is in the process of building a 400 acre solar power plant within 3/4 mile from our airport. Heat from this type of farm should make for a great house thermal. Anyone out there with experience flying over solar farms? Thanks, Bob
I think that this would depend on several factors specific to your location.. Two being: 1)intensity of solar radiation 2)Surface air temperature in the adjacent area.
Try it and let us know.
To follow up on what Evan (T8) said: I gather the latent heat energy released via condensation in a sizable thunderstorm is similar to a small atom bomb. And that's only a side-effect of the solar input. A hydrogen bomb big enough to take billions of years to burn out gets my respect! :-)
On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 8:07:35 AM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> OK - back to the subject at hand (solar farms as thermal generators). I'm not an engineer or physicist but I suspect that part of the consideration is the mass of the structure and it's ability to hold enough heat to effectively transfer it to the air around it. So plowed fields, rock faces on mountains, and heavy metal silos do well to form thermals. But the light weight frames that hold the solar panels don't hold the heat well - and they shade the ground below them. ...
Roy: "holding" the heat is not the issue. To generate a thermal it needs to pass it on to the air, not hold on to it. The sunlight coming in at 1 kilowatt per square meter offers that much enery no matter the structure. Except that some of the light is reflected rather than absorbed. Put dark solar panels (or black plastic bags) over a light-colored surface and you'll get more heat absorbed and therefore transferred to the air (minus 15% or so that gets turned into electricity in the PV panels). Put them over a surface that's already dark and there would be no effect. Also, leafy plants use some of the heat to evaporate water (drawn up by the roots), that part of the energy is "lost" to thermal generation (until condensation occurs). Remove those leafy plants and replace with solar panels (or a parking lot) and you'll avoid the evaporation and get stronger thermals. So it all "depends".
So does anyone else find it ironic that a pilot that flies hundreds of kg of sailplane around the sky for hundreds of km on solar power - is not a fan of solar power?
>
> Chris
No. Let us know when they can build solar panels in a factory powered only by solar panels. Including refining the metal bits. Same for windmills. Chasing this stuff is a net negative for energy produced and the environment(and the economy.) Is it ironic that we land in cornfields but don't like ethanol in our gas?
Martin Gregorie[_5_]
June 28th 17, 12:36 PM
On Tue, 27 Jun 2017 18:01:27 -0700, greeneggsandjam wrote:
> So does anyone else find it ironic that a pilot that flies hundreds of
> kg of sailplane around the sky for hundreds of km on solar power - is
> not a fan of solar power?
>
No, not at all.
All too many people have a total disconnect between the way the world is
and their beliefs about how it is.
--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
Tango Whisky
June 28th 17, 12:49 PM
Le mercredi 28 juin 2017 13:36:44 UTC+2, a écritÂ*:
> No. Let us know when they can build solar panels in a factory powered only by solar panels. Including refining the metal bits. Same for windmills.. Chasing this stuff is a net negative for energy produced and the environment(and the economy.) Is it ironic that we land in cornfields but don't like ethanol in our gas?
Today's solar panels have an energy payback time of less than 2 years.
If you haven't noticed - the 80s and 90s are gone...
Bert TW
On Wednesday, June 28, 2017 at 7:49:39 AM UTC-4, Tango Whisky wrote:
> Le mercredi 28 juin 2017 13:36:44 UTC+2, a écritÂ*:
>
> > No. Let us know when they can build solar panels in a factory powered only by solar panels. Including refining the metal bits. Same for windmills. Chasing this stuff is a net negative for energy produced and the environment(and the economy.) Is it ironic that we land in cornfields but don't like ethanol in our gas?
>
> Today's solar panels have an energy payback time of less than 2 years.
> If you haven't noticed - the 80s and 90s are gone...
>
> Bert TW
Payback including gov't subsidies. The 80's and 90's are gone...
Tango Whisky
June 28th 17, 01:37 PM
Le mercredi 28 juin 2017 14:26:00 UTC+2, a écritÂ*:
> On Wednesday, June 28, 2017 at 7:49:39 AM UTC-4, Tango Whisky wrote:
> > Le mercredi 28 juin 2017 13:36:44 UTC+2, a écritÂ*:
> >
> > > No. Let us know when they can build solar panels in a factory powered only by solar panels. Including refining the metal bits. Same for windmills. Chasing this stuff is a net negative for energy produced and the environment(and the economy.) Is it ironic that we land in cornfields but don't like ethanol in our gas?
> >
> > Today's solar panels have an energy payback time of less than 2 years.
> > If you haven't noticed - the 80s and 90s are gone...
> >
> > Bert TW
> Payback including gov't subsidies. The 80's and 90's are gone...
Energy payback means that they have generated more energy than the energy used for their production. It doesn't say anything about payback in terms of cost.
Again, I'm not promoting anything. Any kind of energy has its own drawbacks, and there is no such thing as a free lunch.
Take a look at our home airfield now:
Ball Airport
145 Ball Airport Rd, Louisburg, NC 27549
36.134316, -78.281947
(Above address comes from Google Maps)
Notice the tobacco fields to the east and south of the runway (North is up).. They are quite large, but soon, so I've heard, some of the tobacco will give way to solar panels.
Right now, I've never found "boomers" there. I have, however, found some thermals there, and some just strong enough to keep me from falling any farther. Maybe the ponds influence that? Even when the fields are fallow, before the tobacco has been planted, nice thermals are just not normally there.
When the PV panels go in, it will be interesting to know if there's a change for the better...
Dan Marotta
June 28th 17, 04:56 PM
How did the temperature of the roof surrounding the PV panels compare?
On 6/26/2017 6:43 PM, wrote:
> On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 4:23:32 AM UTC-4, wrote:
>> The Treasure Coast Soaring Club will soon have a new house thermal. Florida Power And Light is in the process of building a 400 acre solar power plant within 3/4 mile from our airport. Heat from this type of farm should make for a great house thermal. Anyone out there with experience flying over solar farms? Thanks, Bob
> lets make this somewhat simple, the temp of the solar panes on top of the hangar today was in excess of 115 degrees F. I measured the temp reading with a heat gun. The panels number about 16, and the output is a max 8kw. I don't have the output capacity of this project, but I would guess that 100 acres of solar farm could produce 20 MW therefore 400 acres would be 80MW. I would think that if those panels produced the same amount of heat as the ones on the hangar roof and heat travels up, I would assume that we would get some thermal activity from the project.
--
Dan, 5J
Dan Marotta
June 28th 17, 05:02 PM
How much wood could a wood chuck chuck?
Good question, Mark. I often ask similar questions of people who hoot
about their electric cars.
On 6/27/2017 8:29 AM, wrote:
> Question: How much energy does it take to produce a solar array (Aluminum mining, refining, manufacture, Silicon panel manufacture, etc.)? How does it compare to the energy output of the array over its life?
--
Dan, 5J
I flew a lot above big PV plants in southern France, also above the mentioned new ones on the plateau of Valensole. I didn't find more or better thermals there than elsewhere. A big factor in the development of a thermal is moisture, and there is for sure more of that in the surrounding forest than in the PV area.
I'm also not promoting PV but Bert is right about the energy payback being about 2 years. Of course that depends a lot on the region. Electric cars and gray energy is a different story...
On Wednesday, June 28, 2017 at 11:56:15 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> How did the temperature of the roof surrounding the PV panels compare?
>
> On 6/26/2017 6:43 PM, wrote:
> > On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 4:23:32 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> >> The Treasure Coast Soaring Club will soon have a new house thermal. Florida Power And Light is in the process of building a 400 acre solar power plant within 3/4 mile from our airport. Heat from this type of farm should make for a great house thermal. Anyone out there with experience flying over solar farms? Thanks, Bob
> > lets make this somewhat simple, the temp of the solar panes on top of the hangar today was in excess of 115 degrees F. I measured the temp reading with a heat gun. The panels number about 16, and the output is a max 8kw. I don't have the output capacity of this project, but I would guess that 100 acres of solar farm could produce 20 MW therefore 400 acres would be 80MW.. I would think that if those panels produced the same amount of heat as the ones on the hangar roof and heat travels up, I would assume that we would get some thermal activity from the project.
>
> --
> Dan, 5J
Good question Dan. The roof is white and was about 12-15 degrees cooler than the solar panels. Also just west of the 400 acre solar project FPL is building another solar plant exactly the same size. That would be 800 total acres of panels within 2 miles of our strip. will be interesting to see what difference it makes. These farms are to be finished by September, unless a hurricane strows them all the way to Nebraska.
John Cochrane[_3_]
June 28th 17, 06:56 PM
If you want a house thermal, you want a refinery. Chicago glider club has two of them within 5 miles, and there are a lot of days in fall when cross country soaring involves a "refinery tour." Also some 7 knot thermals when nothing else is going up more than 3. Of course, if you arrive low and counting on it, you will meet the bubble theory of thermal formation first hand. It was interesting when it was shut down for a few months. You'd think sun hitting the concrete was most of it, and there was a thermal there, but the operation of the refinery made a big difference. Point your wing at the flame in the smokestack...
John Cochrane.
Paul Agnew
June 28th 17, 08:31 PM
Adding on to Bob's thoughts, at the New Hibiscus Airpark in Vero Beach, FL, we already have three consistent thermal generators right next to the airport: a CVS distribution center just northwest, an outlet mall just east, and the Quad Lakes development just to the southwest. All are within a half mile of the pattern. Add that to the rotation of plowed fields to the west and we have a pretty nice setup here.
Adding these solar farms could significantly increase our house thermals and provide some nice, close to home, final glide thermals for those coming back from XCs. Time will tell...
Paul A.
Per Carlin
June 29th 17, 08:17 AM
I see that some of you are physics and some know economics but no one understand thermodynamics.
All that we have is sun-radiation. A typical good day where I fly is the radiation about 500W/m^2. Some of this radiation will be reflected back to the atmosphere. This is called Albedo and is depending on the ground, in average is the albedo about 33%. The remaining energy (500 x 0,67 = 335W) will be heat into the ground and eventually thermals for us to use.
If you now put a solar panel (electrical or water) into the system with and efficiency of 20%, will the ground and the air be wormer or colder?
The purpose of a solar panel is to convert solar radiation to energy (electrical or heat) and transport it to another place for usage. Therefor will it be less energy left to heat up the ground/air and therefore no thermals for us to use.
The only way a solar plant could be useful for us is if the albedo of the panels are so small so it compensates for the power drain it is designed to do.
Dan Marotta
June 29th 17, 03:10 PM
> On Wednesday, June 28, 2017 at 11:56:15 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> How did the temperature of the roof surrounding the PV panels compare?
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dan, 5J
> On 6/28/2017 11:36 AM, wrote:
> The roof is white and was about 12-15 degrees cooler than the solar panels.
During my formative years in soaring, I learned (rightly or wrongly)
that temperature differentials across a surface, e.g., the boundaries
between forests and open spaces, dirt and rocks, etc., are good areas to
look for thermals. That idea has worked for me for a long time. Maybe
you'll find something there after all. Please keep us informed.
--
Dan, 5J
Per, your pompous post implies that no heat will be exerted from the 800 acres of black panels. I guess my 40 years of soaring and a two plus thousand hours of hp glass time have proven me wrong before, but I would bet on a good thermal from that huge array of panels. Bob
Stephen Haley[_2_]
June 29th 17, 11:06 PM
These started appearing in the uk big time last year. My experience so far
is
that like wind farms they are good thermal generators.
Not sure it has anything to do with the solar bit per se as that would
imply
inefficiency but i would think may have the same effect as a busy asphalt
car
park in that it allows the hot air to cling to the ground a bit longer due
to the
panels being on a 30-45 deg slant.
At 18:29 29 June 2017, wrote:
>Per, your pompous post implies that no heat will be exerted from the 800
>ac=
>res of black panels. I guess my 40 years of soaring and a two plus
>thousand=
> hours of hp glass time have proven me wrong before, but I would bet on a
>g=
>ood thermal from that huge array of panels. Bob
>
Dan Marotta
June 30th 17, 12:38 AM
Why does stating something scientifically make a person "pompous"?
On 6/29/2017 12:29 PM, wrote:
> Per, your pompous post implies that no heat will be exerted from the 800 acres of black panels. I guess my 40 years of soaring and a two plus thousand hours of hp glass time have proven me wrong before, but I would bet on a good thermal from that huge array of panels. Bob
--
Dan, 5J
Just got off the roof, where I measured my installation with an IR thermometer. Believe that's what Bob meant by heat gun.
Exposed roof: 135 to 140F, 57 to 60C
Shaded roof: 100F, 38C.
PV panels: 120F, 49C
Jim
On Wednesday, June 28, 2017 at 8:56:15 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> How did the temperature of the roof surrounding the PV panels compare?
> Dan, 5J
Martin Gregorie[_5_]
June 30th 17, 12:13 PM
On Thu, 29 Jun 2017 17:02:56 -0700, JS wrote:
> Just got off the roof, where I measured my installation with an IR
> thermometer. Believe that's what Bob meant by heat gun.
>
> Exposed roof: 135 to 140F, 57 to 60C Shaded roof: 100F, 38C.
> PV panels: 120F, 49C
>
Do you know what the electrical output from your panels was at that time?
Watts/m^2 would be v.interesting.
Just curious. I thought about fitting solar electric and/or water heating
panels to my roof a while back, but its a non-starter because the town
council owns a row of very large oaks just over my southern fence (10m
from the house), and I haven't a cats chance in hell of getting them
trimmed.
--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
On Friday, June 30, 2017 at 4:16:52 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Jun 2017 17:02:56 -0700, JS wrote:
>
> > Just got off the roof, where I measured my installation with an IR
> > thermometer. Believe that's what Bob meant by heat gun.
> >
> > Exposed roof: 135 to 140F, 57 to 60C Shaded roof: 100F, 38C.
> > PV panels: 120F, 49C
> >
> Do you know what the electrical output from your panels was at that time?
> Watts/m^2 would be v.interesting.
>
> Just curious. I thought about fitting solar electric and/or water heating
> panels to my roof a while back, but its a non-starter because the town
> council owns a row of very large oaks just over my southern fence (10m
> from the house), and I haven't a cats chance in hell of getting them
> trimmed.
>
>
>
> --
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org |
Didn't look, Martin.
The system has been in so long that as a rule I don't think about it any more. This was a test for the temperatures, for anyone who'd like to calculate if thermals would be better or worse.
Jim
Martin Gregorie[_5_]
June 30th 17, 06:02 PM
On Fri, 30 Jun 2017 08:07:42 -0700, JS wrote:
> On Friday, June 30, 2017 at 4:16:52 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Thu, 29 Jun 2017 17:02:56 -0700, JS wrote:
>>
>> > Just got off the roof, where I measured my installation with an IR
>> > thermometer. Believe that's what Bob meant by heat gun.
>> >
>> > Exposed roof: 135 to 140F, 57 to 60C Shaded roof: 100F, 38C.
>> > PV panels: 120F, 49C
>> >
>> Do you know what the electrical output from your panels was at that
>> time?
>> Watts/m^2 would be v.interesting.
>>
>> Just curious. I thought about fitting solar electric and/or water
>> heating panels to my roof a while back, but its a non-starter because
>> the town council owns a row of very large oaks just over my southern
>> fence (10m from the house), and I haven't a cats chance in hell of
>> getting them trimmed.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |
>
> Didn't look, Martin.
> The system has been in so long that as a rule I don't think about it any
> more. This was a test for the temperatures, for anyone who'd like to
> calculate if thermals would be better or worse.
>
Yes, understood, Jim. I was just curious to see if it was possible to see
how much of the roof:panel temp difference was due to generated power
and how much was down to albedo difference.
Just wish I was in a better position both w.r.t latitude (51.779N) and
oak trees to consider adding some solar stuff to my roof.
--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
The panels presumably are isolated from the roof with an air gap, thus their lower temperature. They passed some of the heat on to the air. The thermal-generating effect would depend on the flow of heat to the air, not the temperature of the sun-illuminated object. In a steady state equilibrium, that flow equals the solar input, minus the reflected light, and minus any power siphoned off in other forms (whether electricity from the PV panels, or evaporation of water from green plants).
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
July 21st 17, 05:02 AM
Per Carlin wrote on 6/29/2017 12:17 AM:
> I see that some of you are physics and some know economics but no one understand thermodynamics.
.....
> The only way a solar plant could be useful for us is if the albedo of the panels are so small so it compensates for the power drain it is designed to do.
>
Solar panels are a deep black and do a superb job of absorbing the radiation from
the sun. The ones on my house and my motorhome feel significantly hotter than the
roof area without a solar panel on it.
What might keep them from getting hotter than the ground near a solar farm is the
wind cools BOTH sides of the panel - air circulation across the bottom of the
panel is an important design consideration, as a cooler panel is more efficient.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
July 21st 17, 05:22 AM
wrote on 6/27/2017 7:29 AM:
> Question: How much energy does it take to produce a solar array (Aluminum mining, refining, manufacture, Silicon panel manufacture, etc.)? How does it compare to the energy output of the array over its life?
>
It varies with the location (the amount of sun, basically) where the panels are
used, the kind of panel, etc, but the current range is 1 to 4 years. That's a big
improvement compared to 20 or 30 years ago, due to using much thinner silicon
wafers, fabricating higher efficiency solar cells, and other manufacturing
improvements.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf
So, when will we see solar powered solar cell factories?
Oh, I am a fan of solar energy, but not without examining the actual costs involved.
On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 4:23:32 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> The Treasure Coast Soaring Club will soon have a new house thermal. Florida Power And Light is in the process of building a 400 acre solar power plant within 3/4 mile from our airport. Heat from this type of farm should make for a great house thermal. Anyone out there with experience flying over solar farms? Thanks, Bob
Flew over the two massive projects yesterday and the panels are about ready for installation. Certainly looks impressive with the layout of the panel frames and other equipment. Bob
Andrew Reid
July 23rd 17, 08:16 AM
At 11:12 22 July 2017, wrote:
>On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 4:23:32 AM UTC-4,
wrote:
>> The Treasure Coast Soaring Club will soon have a new house thermal.
>Flori=
>da Power And Light is in the process of building a 400 acre solar power
>pla=
>nt within 3/4 mile from our airport. Heat from this type of farm should
>mak=
>e for a great house thermal. Anyone out there with experience flying over
>s=
>olar farms? Thanks, Bob
>
>Flew over the two massive projects yesterday and the panels are about
>ready=
> for installation. Certainly looks impressive with the layout of the
panel
>=
>frames and other equipment. Bob
>
Long discussion in the UK forum a while back about whether solar farms were
thermal sources. Seemed inconclusive. Remember they are designed to turn
solar energy into electricity' not heat. And although the panels are black,
they
are also pretty reflective. My theory, but not proven in flight, is that
they
should be good late in the day having warmth trapped beneath the panels.
Anyone prepared to share personal experience of using, or trying to use
them
as thermal sources?
Forget the solar panel farms, what you guys need when you are low is a chicken house.
Notice that this reply avoids all mention of economics, politics, scientific explanations or power generation, which are so... far outside the realm of glider flying that you guys should be put on supervised probation for even attempting to bring that stuff up in this forum.
SF
On Monday, July 24, 2017 at 2:12:34 PM UTC-4, SF wrote:
> Forget the solar panel farms, what you guys need when you are low is a chicken house.
>
> Notice that this reply avoids all mention of economics, politics, scientific explanations or power generation, which are so... far outside the realm of glider flying that you guys should be put on supervised probation for even attempting to bring that stuff up in this forum.
>
> SF
Happy organic chicken houses or those cruel corporate run factory farms with drugged up unhealthy chickens that should be banned by the FDA? Enjoy your nugget of politics, economics and science. Dipping sauce not included.
In response to the question about the type or political correctness of the chicken house in question. When you need a chicken house thermal who cares? The same could be said of a lot of other things.
Sf
On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 4:23:32 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> The Treasure Coast Soaring Club will soon have a new house thermal. Florida Power And Light is in the process of building a 400 acre solar power plant within 3/4 mile from our airport. Heat from this type of farm should make for a great house thermal. Anyone out there with experience flying over solar farms? Thanks, Bob
Solar panels are being installed in a rapid pace. i would expect this and the sister project only two miles apart to be completed within late fall. this should be interesting to see what thermal activity is created.
Paul Agnew
August 7th 17, 03:41 PM
I posted a picture of the Thermal Farm site on the club Facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/TCSoaring/
It's going to be huge!
Paul A.
Steve Leonard[_2_]
August 7th 17, 05:10 PM
You could ask the folks flying at Uvalde if the solar farm just to the east is a good thermal source or not. The center is about 2 miles to the east of the airport.
Dave Nadler
August 7th 17, 05:24 PM
On Monday, August 7, 2017 at 11:10:56 AM UTC-5, Steve Leonard wrote:
> You could ask the folks flying at Uvalde if the solar farm just to
> the east is a good thermal source or not. The center is about
> 2 miles to the east of the airport.
I was low there Saturday: solar farm didn't trigger, but upwind
stuff (oil production) did (fortunately).
2G
August 11th 17, 04:17 AM
On Monday, August 7, 2017 at 4:53:28 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 4:23:32 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > The Treasure Coast Soaring Club will soon have a new house thermal. Florida Power And Light is in the process of building a 400 acre solar power plant within 3/4 mile from our airport. Heat from this type of farm should make for a great house thermal. Anyone out there with experience flying over solar farms? Thanks, Bob
>
> Solar panels are being installed in a rapid pace. i would expect this and the sister project only two miles apart to be completed within late fall. this should be interesting to see what thermal activity is created.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding about solar power: they don't generate heat, they consume solar radiation (which reduces heat, much like a body of water).
Heinz Gehlhaar
August 11th 17, 05:57 AM
On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 8:17:40 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Monday, August 7, 2017 at 4:53:28 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 4:23:32 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > The Treasure Coast Soaring Club will soon have a new house thermal. Florida Power And Light is in the process of building a 400 acre solar power plant within 3/4 mile from our airport. Heat from this type of farm should make for a great house thermal. Anyone out there with experience flying over solar farms? Thanks, Bob
> >
> > Solar panels are being installed in a rapid pace. i would expect this and the sister project only two miles apart to be completed within late fall.. this should be interesting to see what thermal activity is created.
>
> You have a fundamental misunderstanding about solar power: they don't generate heat, they consume solar radiation (which reduces heat, much like a body of water).
Then why is my solar panel so hot?
And why is the conversion efficiency only 10-12 percent?
That seems fundamental to me.
Soarboy
Duster[_2_]
August 11th 17, 06:08 AM
> You have a fundamental misunderstanding about solar power: they don't generate heat, they consume solar radiation (which reduces heat, much like a body of water).
They do generate heat, not reduce it. From the lay literature, the efficiency of solar panels is 12-20%, while the theoretical limit is just over 30%. New advancements may beat those numbers. Maybe the glass panels act as insulators, but the heat is radiated back somewhere. Also, bodies of water and suspended particles absorb light and are heated by it; water doesn't reduce heat.
Dan Marotta
August 11th 17, 03:37 PM
If you placed a sheet of aluminum, painted black, next to a solar panel
do you think the temperature of each would be the same?
On 8/10/2017 10:57 PM, Heinz Gehlhaar wrote:
> <snip>
> You have a fundamental misunderstanding about solar power: they don't generate heat, they consume solar radiation (which reduces heat, much like a body of water).
> Then why is my solar panel so hot?
> And why is the conversion efficiency only 10-12 percent?
> That seems fundamental to me.
> Soarboy
--
Dan, 5J
> Then why is my solar panel so hot?
> And why is the conversion efficiency only 10-12 percent?
> That seems fundamental to me.
- it's all been explained over and over above in this thread. Steady-state temperature does not equal heat energy transfer. Nevertheless, a solar "farm" may be similar in effect to a parking lot, which is more likely to generate thermals than ground covered with green plants that evaporate water.
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
August 12th 17, 03:30 AM
2G wrote on 8/10/2017 8:17 PM:
> On Monday, August 7, 2017 at 4:53:28 AM UTC-7, wrote:
>> On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 4:23:32 AM UTC-4, wrote:
>>> The Treasure Coast Soaring Club will soon have a new house thermal. Florida Power And Light is in the process of building a 400 acre solar power plant within 3/4 mile from our airport. Heat from this type of farm should make for a great house thermal. Anyone out there with experience flying over solar farms? Thanks, Bob
>>
>> Solar panels are being installed in a rapid pace. i would expect this and the sister project only two miles apart to be completed within late fall. this should be interesting to see what thermal activity is created.
>
> You have a fundamental misunderstanding about solar power: they don't generate heat, they consume solar radiation (which reduces heat, much like a body of water).
The panels do get bloody hot in the summer sun! They should have good airflow past
the top and bottom surfaces, given their mounting angle and clearance from whats
below them. That might be more effective at transferring the heat to air, compared
whatever surface they are built over.
I'm going to guess panels over vegetation will improve the thermal activity, but
panels over desert sand might decrease it.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf
Paul Agnew
August 12th 17, 03:49 AM
The panels are taking the place of 400 acres of orange grove. Black panels vs green trees. With thier southwest orientation, based on the initial set installed on the southwest corner, I'm thinking they will be a good source for thermals in the mid-afternoon.
After reading the recent article in Soaring about how to create teepee-shaped thermal generators, I have to think there is some correlation, if the theory is correct.
Paul A.
Rich Owen[_2_]
August 12th 17, 03:23 PM
Paul, I have just returned from flying in Uvalde Texas for 10 days. Adjacent to the airport there was a substantial solar farm. It was very close to the airport and certainly within "house thermal" gliding distance. At no time did anyone catch a thermal over the array. For your less experienced pilots, I wouldn't even consider telling them about the possibility of getting a thermal from the area. We have a good number of very knowledgeable engineers in soaring that have already weighed in with the science involved. As the say in one of my favorite tv shows, the myth of a house thermal generated by a solar farm is "Busted!""
Still can't wait to fly at your club. When the weather cools off a little, I'll bring some of the Seminole-Lake crowd. Maybe we can do a fly-in?
Best Regards,
Rich Owen
Not necessarily! A solar farm in Texas verses a solar farm in Florida does not compare.
It's not the temperature it reaches so much as the temperature it differentiates from its surrounding area that will trigger a thermal. In Texas, especially Uvalde, the soil is dry and typically very hot. Quite the opposite in Florida, where it's much greener and wet. If that solar farm is surrounded by forest, crops or wetlands, then it would absolutely produce a sufficient thermal.
Bruce Hoult
August 12th 17, 04:13 PM
On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 4:14:17 PM UTC+3, wrote:
> So, when will we see solar powered solar cell factories?
A great question for @elonmusk
On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 4:23:32 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> The Treasure Coast Soaring Club will soon have a new house thermal. Florida Power And Light is in the process of building a 400 acre solar power plant within 3/4 mile from our airport. Heat from this type of farm should make for a great house thermal. Anyone out there with experience flying over solar farms? Thanks, Bob
Well, I guess some people don't quiet get it, Yes, there will be a thermal created by the solar farm! Yesterday I flew the Gorilla over the solar array and yes there was a substantial thermal being generated by the array. I guess I can conclude that heat goes up. After testing the panels on top of the hangar I already know the temp difference and once again heat goes up! Maybe it is the poor technique of thermal identification and centering that some of these people are having problems with. Bob
Dan Marotta
August 14th 17, 04:21 PM
I wonder what contribution to global warming (:-D) these things make...
(Flame suit on.)
On 8/13/2017 5:20 PM, wrote:
> On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 4:23:32 AM UTC-4, wrote:
>> The Treasure Coast Soaring Club will soon have a new house thermal. Florida Power And Light is in the process of building a 400 acre solar power plant within 3/4 mile from our airport. Heat from this type of farm should make for a great house thermal. Anyone out there with experience flying over solar farms? Thanks, Bob
> Well, I guess some people don't quiet get it, Yes, there will be a thermal created by the solar farm! Yesterday I flew the Gorilla over the solar array and yes there was a substantial thermal being generated by the array. I guess I can conclude that heat goes up. After testing the panels on top of the hangar I already know the temp difference and once again heat goes up! Maybe it is the poor technique of thermal identification and centering that some of these people are having problems with. Bob
--
Dan, 5J
Paul Agnew
August 14th 17, 04:58 PM
On Saturday, August 12, 2017 at 11:03:19 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> Not necessarily! A solar farm in Texas verses a solar farm in Florida does not compare.
>
> It's not the temperature it reaches so much as the temperature it differentiates from its surrounding area that will trigger a thermal. In Texas, especially Uvalde, the soil is dry and typically very hot. Quite the opposite in Florida, where it's much greener and wet. If that solar farm is surrounded by forest, crops or wetlands, then it would absolutely produce a sufficient thermal.
I think Robert has hit upon a key point when comparing where the reports of limited thermal generation by solar arrays are coming from. As I mentioned earlier, these panels are replacing 400 acres of groves and will be surrounded by crops, fields, and orange groves year-round.
We know there are some key spots south of SLGP to grab a thermal off of the metal roofs of some of the modern, modular schools. I was surprised at how little surface area of metal it took to create a good 4-6kt core when flying as backseat ballast with Dave Nadler at Seniors this year. My gut says we'll be happy with the solar farm's proximity to New Hibiscus Airpark. My vario certainly was happy last week flying over the south end where the first panels were mounted. 399.8 acres to go...
The reports will be in soon enough and the results may very well differ by time of year due to the angle of the sun and the fixed orientation of the panels facing south-southwest. Until proved otherwise, I'm optimistic that it will be a good location for the afternoon launch to get up and out.
Paul A.
On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 4:23:32 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> The Treasure Coast Soaring Club will soon have a new house thermal. Florida Power And Light is in the process of building a 400 acre solar power plant within 3/4 mile from our airport. Heat from this type of farm should make for a great house thermal. Anyone out there with experience flying over solar farms? Thanks, Bob
Yesterday, Saturday August 19, the solar farm is rapidly becoming filled with panels. There was a very interesting formation of a big booming cloud directly above the solar farm. I found one of the best thermals of the day being set off by that 400 acres of black panels.
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