Libelle

[Ross[_3_]]

So this is a bit of a strange story.
Up for sale last week on Ebay was this old lady:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Standard-Libelle-Glasflugel-Glider-First-Registered-in-1976-/252990052032?hash=item3ae761d6c0:g:ztMAAOSwCkZZQCZ X&vxp=mtr

And less than a week later, without even changing pictures or giving it a clean comes this:

http://wingsandwheels.com/classifieds

Currently still page 1

Who is Brian Hutchinson, and is he really serious?
Having owned 4 Libelle until now I have a rough idea what they are like, and this one might just need a little more TLC than he thought.

[Ross[_3_]]

Sorry, here is the unique link

http://wingsandwheels.com/class/classified.php?id=2294

[[email protected]]

Ross,

I'm not sure if he realizes just how close the glider community is..

Collin
Seial #229

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

I don't think he does. I brought this up in the Vintage and Classic Facebook page, as the eBay listing had been discussed at length. Sold on eBay for $5200, in PA, now offered as a "bargain" for $8000 by a gent in CA. There was a Hutchinson family in soaring in CA, but no mention of a Brian Hutchinson in the SSA Membership listing.

OK, so I go to the FAA Airman's Certificate Database. No Brian Hutchinson with any airman's certificates listed in CA. There are 28 Hutchinsons in CA in the Airman's Certificate Database, but none seem to matchup.

I was kind of wondering how long it would take for this to show up on RAS. I spotted it the day it hit W&W. And the guy even did a crappy job of lifting pictures from the eBay listing! I think making $2800 by writing a check and sending it overnight is a bit much. I am considering offering my max bid from when it was on eBay and see what response I get. Or maybe let him start paying storage, then have to get it hauled across the US via someone on U-Ship...

In case you wondered, he won the auction with a last second, e-snipe bid of $5200.

Steve Leonard

[[email protected]]

Is 8k a bad deal for a Libelle with no logs? I don't know what all the ADs add up to (assuming they haven't been done) but what the heck, it could be a good value?

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Saturday, July 1, 2017 at 2:22:37 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> Is 8k a bad deal for a Libelle with no logs? I don't know what all the ADs add up to (assuming they haven't been done) but what the heck, it could be a good value?

Well, nobody else bid over $5200. That should be Hint One. I stopped before that. Maybe Hint Two? I know of two Tech Notes that will cost you roughly $500 in parts and about three hours in labor to do that I am sure are not current. I think there are probably others. Then, there will be the time to get a replacement airworthiness certificate. Trailer work. Glider work. Tires. Tubes. Radio.

There have been many in flying condition, with complete records, asking $12K that have sat for a while. Those currently listed, asking $17K and up will likely sit for even longer.

If the trailer works OK, and the gel is just yellowed and not crazed, it might be worth $8K to somebody. But, not to me.

Steve Leonard

[Ross[_3_]]

I bought a flyable libelle a few years back complete with cobra trailer for $12,000 so the way I see it $8000 is excessive for what it is in the state it is in
Saying that, if you can do all the work yourself and want it as a project and don't care about money then sure, why not

I offered him less than $5200 for it. Had a reply but nothing that told me he knew anything about gliders

[Jock Proudfoot]

At 21:13 01 July 2017, Ross wrote:
>I bought a flyable libelle a few years back complete with cobra trailer
for$12,000 so the way I see it $8000 is excessive for what it is in the
stateit is in
>Saying that, if you can do all the work yourself and want it as a
project and don't care about money then sure, why not
>I offered him less than $5200 for it. Had a reply but nothing that told
mehe knew anything about gliders>

First, we need to see a picture of the Data Plate showing the Serial No

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sat, 01 Jul 2017 14:13:00 -0700, Ross wrote:

> I bought a flyable libelle a few years back complete with cobra trailer
> for $12,000 so the way I see it $8000 is excessive for what it is in the
> state it is in Saying that, if you can do all the work yourself and want
> it as a project and don't care about money then sure, why not
>
> I offered him less than $5200 for it. Had a reply but nothing that told
> me he knew anything about gliders

I've had mine 11 years now, For some years their price seemed to stay
fairly constant but I see they're going up now: the going price in
Germany for an airworthy H.201 with trailer, FLARM and modern instruments
seems to be 17-18 K Euros.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Saturday, July 1, 2017 at 6:00:16 PM UTC-6, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sat, 01 Jul 2017 14:13:00 -0700, Ross wrote:
>
> > I bought a flyable libelle a few years back complete with cobra trailer
> > for $12,000 so the way I see it $8000 is excessive for what it is in the
> > state it is in Saying that, if you can do all the work yourself and want
> > it as a project and don't care about money then sure, why not
> >
> > I offered him less than $5200 for it. Had a reply but nothing that told
> > me he knew anything about gliders
>
> I've had mine 11 years now, For some years their price seemed to stay
> fairly constant but I see they're going up now: the going price in
> Germany for an airworthy H.201 with trailer, FLARM and modern instruments
> seems to be 17-18 K Euros.
>
>
> --
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org |

Well, Martin, those have Cobra trailers, Streifeneder wing root fairings and winglets. Along with a good, one color, bright white finish. This one has none of these things.

Steve Leonard

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Saturday, July 1, 2017 at 3:30:04 PM UTC-6, Jock Proudfoot wrote:

>
> First, we need to see a picture of the Data Plate showing the Serial No

From the original eBay listing.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Standard-Libelle-Glasflugel-/252990052032?hash=item3ae761d6c0%3Ag%3AztMAAOSwCkZ ZQCZX&vxp=mtr&nma=true&si=nRxg%252FtRCBJdNf2zaD6Ek4ZqNzNE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Picture# 19.

You can also look at the FAA Registry and see that N3943 is still assigned to Std Libelle serial 214.

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=3943

Steve Leonard

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sat, 01 Jul 2017 17:43:04 -0700, Steve Leonard wrote:

> On Saturday, July 1, 2017 at 6:00:16 PM UTC-6, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Sat, 01 Jul 2017 14:13:00 -0700, Ross wrote:
>>
>> > I bought a flyable libelle a few years back complete with cobra
>> > trailer for $12,000 so the way I see it $8000 is excessive for what
>> > it is in the state it is in Saying that, if you can do all the work
>> > yourself and want it as a project and don't care about money then
>> > sure, why not
>> >
>> > I offered him less than $5200 for it. Had a reply but nothing that
>> > told me he knew anything about gliders
>>
>> I've had mine 11 years now, For some years their price seemed to stay
>> fairly constant but I see they're going up now: the going price in
>> Germany for an airworthy H.201 with trailer, FLARM and modern
>> instruments seems to be 17-18 K Euros.
>>
>>
>> --
>> martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |
>
> Well, Martin, those have Cobra trailers, Streifeneder wing root fairings
> and winglets. Along with a good, one color, bright white finish. This
> one has none of these things.
>
Well, the one I saw in a Cobra was asking 22.5K Euros. The 17-18K gliders
others seem to have box trailers and did not have root fairings or tips
fitted.

Yes, I know that - and that its a relatively early 201B, which seems to
be missing the seat pan, the front wheelbox cover and the control stick
gaiter. The panel is sitting on the top of the trim leaf spring rather
than being in the sliders with the two (missing?) screws done up. There
appears to be corrosion on both the airbrake and undercarriage sliders
(certainly no oil or grease) so Who knows what else is wrong with it that
even a quick inspection would spot. The one positive think you can say is
that there's no balsa in the flying surfaces to rot (that had gone by
about s/n 137). Last but not least, the trailer needs quite a bit of work.

I think all I'm saying is that it looks to me like you could easily spend
the price difference getting it airworthy without fitting new varios,
radio and FLARM.

OTOH the price of Std Libelles in Europe seems to be on the rise though
I'm uncertain why except that they seem to be doing quite well in Club
class.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Ross[_3_]]

There is one reason for the price rise, and that is the fact Streifeneder is about to launch the E-Libelle. Self launching electro motor. Looks cool even though it will be a very expensive mod.

[pjschae]

Ross- Do you have a link to the E-Libelle information? Did not find it on streifly.de.

[Ross[_3_]]

Sorry but a link seems impossible to find again. There was a pic of it on the Streifly webpage around Christmas time
Was talking to Christian Streifeneder about it the other day. The hardware side seems to be done and they were working on battery management

Will be interesting to see what it acutally costs when it is certified

[bertvaneyken]

Bought my libelle 13j ago also from an 'importer', he even claimed someone flew it after he bought it. Not registered on a glider pilot nor any trace of the "testflight". Google cache and plain old Phone learned that he had bought te libelle €4500 less than he had it for sale.
By then he knew the gliding world is too small and he dropped the price to a reasonable level.

The e-libelle might indeed rise the price somewhat but the mod will be expensive anyway.

I overhauled my libelle, did the 4000hr check, fitted winglets and know them inside out ... but this one will need a LOT of work to look acceptable, not mentioning the parts to be replaced/overhauled. Only interesting if one wants to put a lot of his own time in it and enjoying a great old ship.

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Tuesday, July 11, 2017 at 3:22:19 PM UTC-5, bertvaneyken wrote:
> Bought my libelle 13j ago also from an 'importer', he even claimed someone flew it after he bought it. Not registered on a glider pilot nor any trace of the "testflight". Google cache and plain old Phone learned that he had bought te libelle €4500 less than he had it for sale.
> By then he knew the gliding world is too small and he dropped the price to a reasonable level.
>
> The e-libelle might indeed rise the price somewhat but the mod will be expensive anyway.
>
> I overhauled my libelle, did the 4000hr check, fitted winglets and know them inside out ... but this one will need a LOT of work to look acceptable, not mentioning the parts to be replaced/overhauled. Only interesting if one wants to put a lot of his own time in it and enjoying a great old ship.

Well, from eBay, we all know he gave $5200 for this one. If you look in the "Wanted" section on Wings and Wheels, it appears he mistakenly listed it there, likely within an hour of the auction ending. Time zones reported here and there make it hard to tell for sure, but it is the same day. Then, a week later, he lists it in the "Gliders for Sale" section at the "bargain" price of $8000. Did a really crappy job of lifting pictures from the eBay listing to put in his ad. He, too, will learn the soaring world is small, and will come to grips with getting rid of it before it costs him way too much. Wonder how long it will take the airport to start billing him for storage? Maybe they can be "encouraged"? :-)

Steve needs a Std Libelle... :-)

[Mike C]

On Tuesday, July 11, 2017 at 9:12:49 PM UTC-6, Steve Leonard wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 11, 2017 at 3:22:19 PM UTC-5, bertvaneyken wrote:
> > Bought my libelle 13j ago also from an 'importer', he even claimed someone flew it after he bought it. Not registered on a glider pilot nor any trace of the "testflight". Google cache and plain old Phone learned that he had bought te libelle €4500 less than he had it for sale.
> > By then he knew the gliding world is too small and he dropped the price to a reasonable level.
> >
> > The e-libelle might indeed rise the price somewhat but the mod will be expensive anyway.
> >
> > I overhauled my libelle, did the 4000hr check, fitted winglets and know them inside out ... but this one will need a LOT of work to look acceptable, not mentioning the parts to be replaced/overhauled. Only interesting if one wants to put a lot of his own time in it and enjoying a great old ship..
>
> Well, from eBay, we all know he gave $5200 for this one. If you look in the "Wanted" section on Wings and Wheels, it appears he mistakenly listed it there, likely within an hour of the auction ending. Time zones reported here and there make it hard to tell for sure, but it is the same day. Then, a week later, he lists it in the "Gliders for Sale" section at the "bargain" price of $8000. Did a really crappy job of lifting pictures from the eBay listing to put in his ad. He, too, will learn the soaring world is small, and will come to grips with getting rid of it before it costs him way too much. Wonder how long it will take the airport to start billing him for storage? Maybe they can be "encouraged"? :-)
>
> Steve needs a Std Libelle... :-)

LOL!

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 2:19:54 AM UTC-5, Mike C wrote:

> > Steve needs a Std Libelle... :-)
>
> LOL!
Dang it! It is no win the "Canceled. Not Sold" section. And I was just about ready to make him an offer...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znlxif61eGw

[[email protected]]

Yeah hello all I'm the Brian Hutchinson that bid on the Libelle mentioned here. Found out at least supposedly that the tail boom had been sheared off. Damage history. I didn't follow through with purchase as such. Not because I wouldn't fly the ship with a professional repair having been conducted but because it seemed that was a deal breaker for most people. I understand that the soaring community is relatively small and that particular planes are more well known than the pilot that flies them. For anyone who cares I'm 32 and want severely to fly sailplanes. I am very low income and have been looking for planes to "flip" where I can then use any profit to fund training. It's pretty hard where I live to get a job and cost of living is one of the highest in California or the United States for that matter. I've seen discussions where in there was a back and forth on the costs of Soaring with some adamant that soaring is expensive and a rich mans sport while others confirm that the costs can be reasonable and on par with many other recreational activities. Not to get into symantics of cost of soaring or owning ones now sailplane all of you that want soaring as a status symbol you're safe with me don't worry... As for my desire to own a sailplane as a instrument to enjoy flying with Ive since found another Libelle for an even better price than the one I won the auction for on eBay but sadly it seems to have been also involved in an accident. I'm however going into extensive research in an attempt to determine airworthiness and if the ship can be determined as airworthy I'm not going to be "flipping" it unless it's while I'm flying the ship. And well there called loops and rolls not flips.

[Ross[_3_]]

I don’t see why it would be a deal breaker. If the fuse has been broken and repaired it is not an issue. I have fixed several fuses, that have been either completely separated or simply broken. It is one of the easiest things to repair

So which libelle did you buy?

[[email protected]]

Contacted the Lancaster Airport on the off chance they still had the Libelle. Said it was in Canada now. I was offered a price of 1,500 on a Libelle that had a damage history. The known damage is a shattered canopy and a crushed leading edge in one wing approximately 3 inches deep and 3 inches wide from striking a tree or fence post. Unknown if there is any other damage to fuselage such as landing gear damage or boom damage. The pilot reported hearing "cracking in the wings" when he was upset by turbulence and became inverted in flight causing his head to strike and crack the canopy is what was reported to have happened. I'd really like to own a Libelle sailplane and thought maybe if I registered it as experimental I could have it repaired for a resonable cost. If it wasn't repairable it could be cosmetically brought back and would make a museum piece. Biggest problem I have is logistic of transport. I live in California and the ship is on the East Coast. I told the guy that I was probably gonna have to pass. If any of you know a good reason why I should pick this Libelle up and or could help me with getting it to California let me know. Thanks.

[[email protected]]

Weird for me to specify the Libelle as sailplane? I'm making payments on a Viking Dragonfly and well... I thought maybe at 1,500 if the ship is damaged severely structurally I could remove all components such as water ballast system and control components selling those and the trailer donate the airframe as a static display model to an aircraft museum.

[[email protected]]

Found a Libelle 301 for an asking of 8,000 that needs work but no damage history. It's my understanding that the 201 is preferable to the 301 though because of an improved airfoil, debatably materials not that balsa is bad, and better air brakes? Am I off base in this info? The 301 has flaps though as well no? I've seen a retrofit kit that improved the air brakes on another ship. Is that not possible on the Libelle too? Anyway I know a bit on these but not everything. To be honest I'd like to pay the 1,500 to just take the thing apart and see how it was made. I've never even seen one of these in person. I welcome comments, advice, and support. Thanks!

[Charlie Quebec]

301 had flaps and better performance than 201.
Several mods available, Google Schumann Libelle.

[[email protected]]

Mr. Quebec and Mike thank you. I had looked at both those pages. I had considered the Damaged Libelle I found a good candidate for the Schumman Mods being that extensive repairs would be needed anyhow and why not add those mods while I was at it. I would find it hard to modify a classic glass ship like the Libelle. I would want to keep it factory and do a restoration but not major external modifications. The Schumann mods the primary being the wing would be a moot point on the 201 as they have the Wortmann was it wing already correct? In respect to the turbulence Schumann claimed as being the entire undersurface of the wing perhaps a turbulator tape applied in the right place on the under surface would provide a better flow. Maybe the same tapes could be applied to the nose section with improved results for higher speed flight. I'm not concerned with owning a Libelle to fly fast in competition, I'd be happy with having such a beautiful ship to fly and accept it for what it is, limitations on speed being what they are. What I'm understanding is the 301s spoilers were half as effective as the 201s yet it had flaps which compensate and bring it to a similar ability as the 201 or allow slightly better landing performance? The 201 had a higher performance airfoil standard? Anything else I'm missing?

[Charlie Quebec]

The 201 airfoil is not higher performance than the 301.

[[email protected]]

Wikipedia Libelle entry isn't necessarily correct. I read that the 201 had a Wortmann airfoil whereas the article written by Schumann stated that the 301 airfoil was a Heutter airfoil. Maybe the thing is the 201 has the Heutter airfoil that has been mistakenly called a Wortmann in the Wiki entry.

[[email protected]]

Maybe mistaken in the Wiki entry and otherwise? Glasfaser must be able to say what the true airfoil section is. From what I'm gathering the 201 and 301 have the same airfoil yet if Wil Schuemann is correct in his assertions the both mentioned Libelle have a Heutter airfoil and not a Wortmann as is seemingly commonly thought.

[[email protected]]

If it's any help, I obtained a set of laser cut templates for the Libelle 201b from Streifeneder. They are all marked as FX 66-17AII for all wing stations. The FX series would be a Wortman airfoil.

Mark Guay

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 17:37:23 -0700, fthacorpgov wrote:

> In respect to the turbulence
> Schumann claimed as being the entire undersurface of the wing perhaps a
> turbulator tape applied in the right place on the under surface would
> provide a better flow.
>
My Libelle, an early H.201 with balsa surfaces and both top and bottom
surface brakes, has lower surface turbulation. This is zigzag tape a bit
forward from where the undercambered rear part of the lower surface
starts. It was fitted when I bought it but I'm fairly certain the tape
and instructions were supplied by Glasfaser. Mine runs comfortably at 80
kts without much height loss. I do not have root fairings fitted: would
like fairings but I don't think the fuselage would fit in the trailer
with them on - very narrow trailer.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[[email protected]]

I have built a number of wing wheels and WingRiggers for both the 201 and 301. I can definitely say that the airfoils are very different. The 201 is thicker, with more curvature on the bottom.

[[email protected]]

The 301 aerofoil is a lot thinner & designed for flaps so very different.

I have spoken to Christian Streifeneder regarding turbulators, he has pointed out that there may be a case for putting them on the top surface of the wing, but then it would be difficult to wash the wings. He's not convinced they are effective on the underside.

By the way, there is no H in 201 (regardless of what Wikipedia says) - the H in H301 denotes Hutter who was involved in it's design, but the 201 did not.

Cheers,
Nick.

[SoaringXCellence]

I just sold my H301 with the Scheumann wing mods. The leading edge is sharper and the entry (stagnation point) is lower. The flaps actuator is modified to let the ailerons move closer to the flaps for cambering.

The Libelle 201 has a much thicker wing and you'll see that if you try to put a H301 canopy on a Libelle 201.

[[email protected]]

The airfoils on the Standard Libelle (201) and the H301 Libelle are different. The 201 uses the (Wortmann) FX 66-17AII-182 airfoil, which is 18.2-percent-chord thick. Wil Schuemann brilliantly observed that the 301 airfoil is very similar to an FX 67-K-XXX airfoil except near the leading edge---thus the leading-edge "extension" of the Schuemann modification.

Dan Somers
Port Matilda, Pennsylvania, USA

[[email protected]]

This clarifies the airfoil matter for me thanks.

[[email protected]]

I'm looking at going ahead with purchasing a 201 project. It was damaged and needs to be thoroughly checked out with minimum repairs being fiberglass to the leading edge of one wing that had contacted a fence post or small tree on an off field landing and a new canopy. I'd like to find a person who may be able to transport the glider for me to California from Pennsylvania. I can't afford to pay a lot. Maybe someone knows someone who happens to be road tripping out to California from the East Coast?

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 21:22:19 UTC+1, bertvaneyken wrote:
> Bought my libelle 13j ago also from an 'importer', he even claimed someone flew it after he bought it. Not registered on a glider pilot nor any trace of the "testflight". Google cache and plain old Phone learned that he had bought te libelle €4500 less than he had it for sale.
> By then he knew the gliding world is too small and he dropped the price to a reasonable level.
>
> The e-libelle might indeed rise the price somewhat but the mod will be expensive anyway.
>
> I overhauled my libelle, did the 4000hr check, fitted winglets and know them inside out ... but this one will need a LOT of work to look acceptable, not mentioning the parts to be replaced/overhauled. Only interesting if one wants to put a lot of his own time in it and enjoying a great old ship.

Have you removed the under carriage from the glider ?
I need to look at mine on a later 201.
I've found the holes in the side, just need to know how all comes apart.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Mon, 13 Aug 2018 11:08:06 -0700, gregorywheldon wrote:

> On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 21:22:19 UTC+1, bertvaneyken wrote:
>> Bought my libelle 13j ago also from an 'importer', he even claimed
>> someone flew it after he bought it. Not registered on a glider pilot
>> nor any trace of the "testflight". Google cache and plain old Phone
>> learned that he had bought te libelle €4500 less than he had it for
>> sale.
>> By then he knew the gliding world is too small and he dropped the price
>> to a reasonable level.
>>
>> The e-libelle might indeed rise the price somewhat but the mod will be
>> expensive anyway.
>>
>> I overhauled my libelle, did the 4000hr check, fitted winglets and know
>> them inside out ... but this one will need a LOT of work to look
>> acceptable, not mentioning the parts to be replaced/overhauled. Only
>> interesting if one wants to put a lot of his own time in it and
>> enjoying a great old ship.
>
> Have you removed the under carriage from the glider ?
> I need to look at mine on a later 201.
> I've found the holes in the side, just need to know how all comes apart.
>
Take the wheel off first, followed by the short links to the main part of
the rear undercarriage assembly. This leaves the front and rear main
undercarriage assemblies on the front and rear axles. The axles are the
thin-walled tubes the undercarriage pivots on when it retracts. The use
of relatively soft, thin walled tube for the axles is intended to adsorb
the shock of a hard landing by bending the tube.

Disconnect the retraction lever from the right end of the rear axle.

There's an 8mm thread in both the front and rear axles at the end facing
the access holes. Use some 8mm studding or a rod with 20mm or so of 8mm
thread on its end - to extract the axle, screw this tool into the axle
and pull it out through the side hole.

Assuming the axles are not bent, the front axle should just slide out
because the front undercarriage assembly rotates freely on it with a
spacer washer on each side to keep it centered. You need to remove the
two bolts through the rear axle and disconnect the retraction drive crank
from the right end of the rear axle before it will slide out.

If the axles are bent they will be a lot harder to remove - be careful
not to break the brass axle bearings out of the wheel box. The
undercarriage assemblies have a 20mm wide bearing surface at each end:
the middle part of the tube does not touch the axle, which can bend
inside the bearing surfaces.

Glasfaser can supply replacement axles quite promptly if you need them.
Note that new rear axles are NOT pre-drilled and that Glasflugel didn't
use a drilling template, so the exact placement of holes must be taken
from the rear undercarriage assembly and the relative angle between that
and the retraction drive crank must be copied from the old axle.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org