Vintage Brake upgrade-JJ or anyone else who knows

[Stewart Kissel]

What is it that these guys do to improve braking?
Assuming all ships could use help, are some (say a
Ventus) more improved then others? How much $. Thank
you.

[Mark Navarre]

>What is it that these guys do to improve braking?
>Assuming all ships could use help, are some (say a
>Ventus) more improved then others? How much $. Thank
>you.
>

Reline the shoes with higher performance friction material, and "arc" the new
lining to fit the drum diameter. Have not had my ship done (yet) but am
strongly considering it.


-
Mark Navarre
ASW-20 OD
California, USA
-

[Greg Arnold]

I just had this done. $240. Haven't put the wheel back on the glider
yet, so I don't know if it was worth it.



Mark Navarre wrote:

>>What is it that these guys do to improve braking?
>>Assuming all ships could use help, are some (say a
>>Ventus) more improved then others? How much $. Thank
>>you.
>>
>
>
> Reline the shoes with higher performance friction material, and "arc" the new
> lining to fit the drum diameter. Have not had my ship done (yet) but am
> strongly considering it.
>
>
> -
> Mark Navarre
> ASW-20 OD
> California, USA
> -

[John Shelton]

Where did you get it done, Greg? Most shops won't touch it now for OSHA
reasons. Reply privately, if you wish.

It works on every other kind of vehicle I had it done to back in the drum
brake days.

"Greg Arnold" > wrote in message
news:EPd1c.10206$Zp.1082@fed1read07...
> I just had this done. $240. Haven't put the wheel back on the glider
> yet, so I don't know if it was worth it.
>
>
>
> Mark Navarre wrote:
>
> >>What is it that these guys do to improve braking?
> >>Assuming all ships could use help, are some (say a
> >>Ventus) more improved then others? How much $. Thank
> >>you.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Reline the shoes with higher performance friction material, and "arc"
the new
> > lining to fit the drum diameter. Have not had my ship done (yet) but am
> > strongly considering it.
> >
> >
> > -
> > Mark Navarre
> > ASW-20 OD
> > California, USA
> > -

[Stewart Kissel]

John-
Vintage Brake, Sonora 209-533-4346
I googled them but only found dead links.


At 17:12 03 March 2004, John Shelton wrote:
>Where did you get it done, Greg? Most shops won't touch
>it now for OSHA
>reasons. Reply privately, if you wish.
>
>It works on every other kind of vehicle I had it done
>to back in the drum
>brake days.
>
>'Greg Arnold' wrote in message
>news:EPd1c.10206$Zp.1082@fed1read07...
>> I just had this done. $240. Haven't put the wheel
>>back on the glider
>> yet, so I don't know if it was worth it.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mark Navarre wrote:
>>
>> >>What is it that these guys do to improve braking?
>> >>Assuming all ships could use help, are some (say a
>> >>Ventus) more improved then others? How much $. Thank
>> >>you.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > Reline the shoes with higher performance friction
>>>material, and 'arc'
>the new
>> > lining to fit the drum diameter. Have not had my
>>>ship done (yet) but am
>> > strongly considering it.
>> >
>> >
>> > -
>> > Mark Navarre
>> > ASW-20 OD
>> > California, USA
>> > -
>
>
>

[Greg Arnold]

http://www.vintagebrake.com/


Stewart Kissel wrote:

> John-
> Vintage Brake, Sonora 209-533-4346
> I googled them but only found dead links.
>
>
> At 17:12 03 March 2004, John Shelton wrote:
>
>>Where did you get it done, Greg? Most shops won't touch
>>it now for OSHA
>>reasons. Reply privately, if you wish.
>>
>>It works on every other kind of vehicle I had it done
>>to back in the drum
>>brake days.
>>
>>'Greg Arnold' wrote in message
>>news:EPd1c.10206$Zp.1082@fed1read07...
>>
>>>I just had this done. $240. Haven't put the wheel
>>>back on the glider
>>>yet, so I don't know if it was worth it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Mark Navarre wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>What is it that these guys do to improve braking?
>>>>>Assuming all ships could use help, are some (say a
>>>>>Ventus) more improved then others? How much $. Thank
>>>>>you.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Reline the shoes with higher performance friction
>>>>material, and 'arc'
>>
>>the new
>>
>>>>lining to fit the drum diameter. Have not had my
>>>>ship done (yet) but am
>>>>strongly considering it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-
>>>>Mark Navarre
>>>>ASW-20 OD
>>>>California, USA
>>>>-
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

[Bob Kuykendall]

Earlier, Stewart Kissel >
wrote:

> What is it that these guys do to improve braking?
> Assuming all ships could use help, are some (say a
> Ventus) more improved then others? How much $. Thank
> you.

The "gang of four" for which I delivered brakes to Mr. Morse all seem
happy. When I visited his shop, he seemed knowledgable and methodical.

So far as I know, what he did for the Gang was:

* Inspect all parts for cracks or defects. One of the four iron drums
had lateral cracks near the crenelations that lock it into the
aluminum wheel half. A used replacement wheel half had to be secured
(thanks, JJ).

* Replace the brake shoes with ones having a different compound that
seems more amenable to lighter actuation forces.

* Re-bush the actuation cam pivot if necessary for greater precision
and lower friction.

* Re-bush the backing plate axle hole if necessary to keep the shoes
aligned with the drum under braking forces.

* Turn the brake drum on a lathe with the wheel halves joined and
bolted. It appears that Tost turns their drums using only the wheel
half that contains the drum. But when the halves are joined, the
forces applied by the bolts that secure them together distorts the
drum slightly.

* Turn the brake shoe pairs on a lathe to match their contact surface
to the arc of the drum. The stock shoes don't seem to fit very well in
this regard.

I believe that the average charge for the gang of four was on the
order of $150 or less, depending on what was required.

The Vintage Brake Web site is:

http://www.vintagebrake.com

The tips page has a lot of good advice applicable to the Tost units.

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24

[JJ Sinclair]

The bad news is, you still can't honk-on the brakes doing 40 knots. If you do,
you will probably crack the drum. Guess how I know?

I keep everything adjusted up snug and try to only apply the brake below 20
knots.

>* Inspect all parts for cracks or
defects. One of the four iron drums
>had lateral cracks near the crenelations that lock it into the
>aluminum wheel half. A used replacement wheel half had to be secured
>(thanks, JJ).

JJ Sinclair

[ken ward]

In article >,
Stewart Kissel > wrote:

> What is it that these guys do to improve braking?
> Assuming all ships could use help, are some (say a
> Ventus) more improved then others? How much $. Thank
> you.
>
>
>

To start with, Michael at Vintage Brake has a primary business of doing
drum brakes for vintage motorcycle racers. This means he has a lot of
experience separating inferior mechanical brake assemblies from quality
ones, he has a large assortment of pad materials on hand, he gets a lot
of feedback from the racers about what works and what didn't, so
ultimately he's got a good grasp of all the variables involved in
picking a compound to match the mechanism and the application.

So, I sent him my LAK-12 main wheel assembly, as the brakes just weren't
up to the task of adequately slowing down a 1000# glider. Although my
glider is Experimental, he won't reject other types; it's up to you and
your mechanic to know what you can/can't do to your glider.

He looked it over, and says the brake components are strong, well made,
good materials used, etc; I think it comes straight out of a Blanki. We
then discussed the typical operating conditions such as runway surface,
temperature, wet/dry, weight. He also wanted cable length and
dimensions of the brake lever pivot assembly.

After all that, he recommended a pad material suited to stopping
something heavy, low duty cycle, no glazing. He installed the new pad
material on the existing shoes, cleaned and examined all pivoting parts,
made sure the drum itself was smooth, then arced the pads to exactly fit
the drums. Total cost was about $150.

What I found was vastly improved braking. It worked great time after
time, with no fading. Only drawback was that it worked a little *too*
well, as vigorous braking at low speeds would lift the tail off the
ground. I spoke with him and he recommended removing material from the
leading edge of the pads, 0.5" at a time, just enough to keep the pad
off the drum.

This improved the situation, but I feel it's really more of an issue
about where the brake is located with reference to the CG. Above
10-15kts full back stick keeps the tail planted, even with full brakes.
Below that speed the tail starts coming up. Some say SZDs exhibit the
same behavior. I'm going to take another 0.5" off this winter and put
on a new tire.

Ken
San Jose, CA

[Stewart Kissel]

Good answers guys-

JJ's response got me thinking. Because I have greater
elevator authority at higher speeds, I apply much harder
brake when moving fast knowing I can keep the tail
down with back stick. But it sounds like that may
be tough on the drum.

At 18:42 03 March 2004, Ken Ward wrote:
>In article ,
> Stewart Kissel wrote:
>
>> What is it that these guys do to improve braking?
>>
>> Assuming all ships could use help, are some (say a
>> Ventus) more improved then others? How much $. Thank
>> you.
>>
>>
>>
>
>To start with, Michael at Vintage Brake has a primary
>business of doing
>drum brakes for vintage motorcycle racers. This means
>he has a lot of
>experience separating inferior mechanical brake assemblies
>from quality
>ones, he has a large assortment of pad materials on
>hand, he gets a lot
>of feedback from the racers about what works and what
>didn't, so
>ultimately he's got a good grasp of all the variables
>involved in
>picking a compound to match the mechanism and the application.
>
>So, I sent him my LAK-12 main wheel assembly, as the
>brakes just weren't
>up to the task of adequately slowing down a 1000# glider.
> Although my
>glider is Experimental, he won't reject other types;
>it's up to you and
>your mechanic to know what you can/can't do to your
>glider.
>
>He looked it over, and says the brake components are
>strong, well made,
>good materials used, etc; I think it comes straight
>out of a Blanki. We
>then discussed the typical operating conditions such
>as runway surface,
>temperature, wet/dry, weight. He also wanted cable
>length and
>dimensions of the brake lever pivot assembly.
>
>After all that, he recommended a pad material suited
>to stopping
>something heavy, low duty cycle, no glazing. He installed
>the new pad
>material on the existing shoes, cleaned and examined
>all pivoting parts,
>made sure the drum itself was smooth, then arced the
>pads to exactly fit
>the drums. Total cost was about $150.
>
>What I found was vastly improved braking. It worked
>great time after
>time, with no fading. Only drawback was that it worked
>a little *too*
>well, as vigorous braking at low speeds would lift
>the tail off the
>ground. I spoke with him and he recommended removing
>material from the
>leading edge of the pads, 0.5' at a time, just enough
>to keep the pad
>off the drum.
>
>This improved the situation, but I feel it's really
>more of an issue
>about where the brake is located with reference to
>the CG. Above
>10-15kts full back stick keeps the tail planted, even
>with full brakes.
>Below that speed the tail starts coming up. Some say
>SZDs exhibit the
>same behavior. I'm going to take another 0.5' off
>this winter and put
>on a new tire.
>
>Ken
>San Jose, CA
>

[Doug Hoffman]

Stewart Kissel wrote:

> What is it that these guys do to improve braking?
> Assuming all ships could use help, are some (say a
> Ventus) more improved then others? How much $. Thank
> you.
>

This is one of those periodic topics. Here's what I did to greatly improve
the braking of my old Tost drum brake. This is an old post.

-Doug




The article is by Tillman Steckner. I performed the modification exactly as
he outlines, not difficult if you are somewhat handy with tools. It
worked/works great. I can lift the tail off the ground if I want. The feel
is progressive and has no tendency to 'grab'. If you botch the job, not
likely in my opinion, then you simply have to replace one brake shoe because
that is all that is modified.

This has all been discussed here before. Do a google search on the newsgroup
for "brake".

Regards,

-Doug

> From: "John Shelton" >
> Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 20:16:41 GMT
> Subject: TOST brake mod?
>
> Years ago, a modification appeared in Soaring for TOST drum brakes. The idea
> was to get the braking shoe (the one engaged to stop when rolling forward)
> to push the non-braking shoe (used to stop when rolling backwards) against
> the drum thereby actually being able to stop.
>
> One friend did it to his DG300 and it worked great and is still working
> great. I have also heard that if done wrong, you end up on your nose.
>
> Does anyone know where I can get accurate sketches and description of this
> mod? Apparently, the sketch in Soaring was wrong. And, do I really want to
> do this?
>
>

[James]

I spoke to the owner of Vintage Brake on the phone recently and he
said that he's done about 18 glider brake systems so far. He said the
original design that appeared in Soaring magazine proved "too
effective" in that the glider tended to tip onto its nose, and
required subsequent modification to decrease the amount of braking
friction. He now uses a compound with the smallest coeffiecient of
friction available from the same compound manufacturer. This has
reportedly worked very well, and he claims that it is at least as
effective as a disc brake in terms of stopping power.

The turn around time given his backlog of work is about 2 months. He
suggested that if you wish to have your brake upgraded by him, that
you call to let him know, and then he will tell you about 3 days in
advance when to ship the brake via UPS. It will only take him a day
to work on it and to ship it back. That way you won't be without your
ship for an extended period of time. I believe he said there is a
small fee for putting you "ahead of the line" but I do not recall
exactly, so you should call (209-533-4346) to be certain. He is
located in Sonora, California which is approximately in between the
San Francisco Bay area and Sacramento. See
http://www.vintagebrake.com/default.htm for more info.


Greg Arnold > wrote in message news:<EPd1c.10206$Zp.1082@fed1read07>...
> I just had this done. $240. Haven't put the wheel back on the glider
> yet, so I don't know if it was worth it.

[Bob Johnson]

The old air-cooled volksie bugs were never known to have great brakes.
They weighed in at about 1600 lbs and had 80 sq in of brake area. A
15-meter might go 700 lbs and I doubt the common Tost brake has more
than 15 sq in.

There's just not that much braking surface to work our improvements on.

BJ

Stewart Kissel wrote:
>
> What is it that these guys do to improve braking?
> Assuming all ships could use help, are some (say a
> Ventus) more improved then others? How much $. Thank
> you.

[Mark Grubb]

I had Michael "Mercury" Morris overhaul my Tost P.O.S. err I mean drum
brake. The new pads and blueprinting (as described by Bob and others
in this thread) significantly improved braking and fade resistance.
In addition, Mr Morris found and corrected a worn/ovalized actuator
arm and hole on my Tost.

I would recommend Mr. Morris and his modifications highly.

That said, there is NO comparison between a (modified) Tost drum and
a Cleveland disc brake. Putting anything less than a 500X5 Cleveland
on a modern glider is ignorant.