Ground launch and the incremental vanishing of soaring

[Mark James Boyd]

I spent a good portion of the past few days looking into
auto-tow launching. After some fairly extensive
searching, I found that, as far as I can tell, nobody has
used auto-tow OR winch launch at a public airport
in four years.

LaGrange-Callaway GA (SES) used to do winch, and according to the airport
manager that was stopped there because it interfered with the
traffic there.

Bend, Oregon couldn't remember when auto-tow was used last, and
after my call the city engineer suggested perhaps they should change the
"auto-tow by special request" to "no auto-tows allowed."
So my inquiry actually perhaps has now closed even the possibility at that
airport.

Does anyone know of a US public airport that has allowed auto-tow
in the past five years? How about winch?

This was quite troubling to me. It seems public airports have
rejected ground launch entirely. I wonder when aero-tow out of
public airports will completely disappear as well, including aero-retrieve.
Public airport managers certainly can prohibit (in writing) a person
from walking on the runway and hooking up a towline. I suppose a
careful reading of just about every airport policy document already
prohibits this.

I hadn't really believed this until I talked to four airport managers.
Without a clear YES from the Calif. public airport insurance "pool",
and no overriding benefit to the airport, it looks like (non-self launch)
gliders can generally use public airports legally only as
landouts to trailer from. Sure, sure they turn a blind eye to
the occasional aero-retrieve, but if anything happened, the
"walked on the runway" illegality would absolve the airport of any
liability...

Soaring departures from private and military/CAP airports only?
I guess that's pretty much it. And if most gliders sold are mostly
motorgliders, I'm guessing even tow will become more rare.

Does anyone know the numbers of public airports that used to
have tow or ground launch operations years ago vs. today?

Hmmm...I was a bit surprised at how little the "public" airports
support soaring. Well, at least they make good landouts...








--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

[Marc Ramsey]

Mark James Boyd wrote:
> Does anyone know of a US public airport that has allowed auto-tow
> in the past five years? How about winch?

I'm sure there are still a few (mostly auto-tow, I bet). Frankly, as
much as I'd like to see a revival of ground launch in this country,
trying to push it on reluctant public airport managers is an incredibly
bad idea. Random power traffic and 3000 foot cables just don't mix very
well.

> Soaring departures from private and military/CAP airports only?
> I guess that's pretty much it. And if most gliders sold are mostly
> motorgliders, I'm guessing even tow will become more rare.

Without even trying hard, I can think of 10 California public use
airports with aero tows available most days. Yes, there are and will be
problems at some airports. Getting complacent about it is a mistake,
but I don't think there is an immediate danger of getting completely
shut out.

There are a few places I can easily see supporting ground launch
operations, like the still undeveloped Lagoon Valley site, that can no
longer be used for aero tow due to noise issues. For a decent ground
launch site, I would guess at 300 to 500 acres of empty land is
required. For a viable operation, it needs to be within an hour or two
of a major metropolitan area. For halfway decent soaring conditions, it
needs to be away from the coast. Given California geography and real
estate prices, it would be tough to make it work...

Marc

[Eric Greenwell]

Mark James Boyd wrote:
> I spent a good portion of the past few days looking into
> auto-tow launching. After some fairly extensive
> searching, I found that, as far as I can tell, nobody has
> used auto-tow OR winch launch at a public airport
> in four years.

Northwest Soaring in Cle Elum, WA, winch launches:

http://www.northwestsoaring.com/

--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[F.L. Whiteley]

"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
news:4046baa4$1@darkstar...
> I spent a good portion of the past few days looking into
> auto-tow launching. After some fairly extensive
> searching, I found that, as far as I can tell, nobody has
> used auto-tow OR winch launch at a public airport
> in four years.
>
> LaGrange-Callaway GA (SES) used to do winch, and according to the airport
> manager that was stopped there because it interfered with the
> traffic there.
>
Efficiency and safety are likely to get in the way, politically. We have
ground launched at the local public airport on a demonstration basis during
open hours day with lots of power traffic. However on a day to day basis
the airport manager apparently has rejected CAP plans to aerotow from the
same airport. Why the CAP stopped to ask, I have no idea. Safety was a
minor issue until the taxiways were built. Before that, pilots had to back
taxi on the main runway. I know the airport manager of another local public
airport would love to have us use our winch at his facility (In fact, he's
an instructor at our club). Using main runways with lights is likely a bad
choice in any event. Eventually something will go wrong. A wide grassy
area paralleling the runway might be good, but modern drainage engineering
has made these areas less friendly. Since we have our own airfield, we tend
to confine our winching there.

There are a few publicly funded, uncontrolled airports in on the western
Colorado slope that have been used for ground launch. These are a bit
remote, but great soaring areas and would make excellent camp sites. In
fact, winch launching or auto tow are logistically easier as there's not
avgas on site, meaning an extra vehicle to haul drums if the tow plane comes
along. We plan on using one private (6000') and one public strip (7000')
for winching this summer. Our club used to have a winch wave camp each
September (something we'd like to revive) at a strip to the west
http://www.soarcsa.org/images/pikwinch.jpg. Those are the Steamboats in the
distance. The pilot in the image got his Diamond altitude from the winch at
that site IIRC.

> Bend, Oregon couldn't remember when auto-tow was used last, and
> after my call the city engineer suggested perhaps they should change the
> "auto-tow by special request" to "no auto-tows allowed."
> So my inquiry actually perhaps has now closed even the possibility at that
> airport.
>
> Does anyone know of a US public airport that has allowed auto-tow
> in the past five years? How about winch?
>
> This was quite troubling to me. It seems public airports have
> rejected ground launch entirely. I wonder when aero-tow out of
> public airports will completely disappear as well, including
aero-retrieve.
> Public airport managers certainly can prohibit (in writing) a person
> from walking on the runway and hooking up a towline. I suppose a
> careful reading of just about every airport policy document already
> prohibits this.
>
> I hadn't really believed this until I talked to four airport managers.
> Without a clear YES from the Calif. public airport insurance "pool",
> and no overriding benefit to the airport, it looks like (non-self launch)
> gliders can generally use public airports legally only as
> landouts to trailer from. Sure, sure they turn a blind eye to
> the occasional aero-retrieve, but if anything happened, the
> "walked on the runway" illegality would absolve the airport of any
> liability...
>
> Soaring departures from private and military/CAP airports only?
> I guess that's pretty much it. And if most gliders sold are mostly
> motorgliders, I'm guessing even tow will become more rare.
>
> Does anyone know the numbers of public airports that used to
> have tow or ground launch operations years ago vs. today?
>
> Hmmm...I was a bit surprised at how little the "public" airports
> support soaring. Well, at least they make good landouts...
>
If you want unencumbered access for soaring, something like this is prudent
http://www.airsailing.org/

Although it may be also quiet cheap to lease land on a long term lease (when
compared to buying and paying taxes) and set up a ground launch operation.
I can show you places within a 45min drive of my place where we could quite
literally pay out 10K worth of spectra behind a vehicle and launch to great
heights. HG pilots use this area for auto launch frequently.

There are a number of interesting strips in the west. One potentially
excellent soaring site is at Powell, Wyoming where there is a 6000ft
airfield the ends over a 700ft drop into the prevailing winds;^). Another
site we plan on testing. There are a few other Parowan like sites around
the American West.

The places to look for are potential ridge top or ridge bottom sites. In
some cases a BLM patent can be secured and away you go. It just takes some
vision and initiative and a sensible approach. The SSA club committee
highly recommends organizing a 501c(3) and pressing ahead with securing
access to a primo site. Getting it close in may be problematic. Why PASCO
or RESCO don't own/operate winches is beyond me.

Frank Whiteley

[Mark James Boyd]

Marc Ramsey > wrote:
>Mark James Boyd wrote:
>> Does anyone know of a US public airport that has allowed auto-tow
>> in the past five years? How about winch?
>
>I'm sure there are still a few (mostly auto-tow, I bet). Frankly, as
>much as I'd like to see a revival of ground launch in this country,
>trying to push it on reluctant public airport managers is an incredibly
>bad idea.

I'm guessing this could eventually evolve into the same statement about
aero-tow in 10-20 years.

>Random power traffic and 3000 foot cables just don't mix very
>well.

To some extent the same is true of 250 foot ropes. Again I'm sure this
could marginally reduce aero-tow availaility over 10-20 years,

>> Soaring departures from private and military/CAP airports only?
>> I guess that's pretty much it. And if most gliders sold are mostly
>> motorgliders, I'm guessing even tow will become more rare.
>
>Without even trying hard, I can think of 10 California public use
>airports with aero tows available most days. Yes, there are and will be
>problems at some airports. Getting complacent about it is a mistake,
>but I don't think there is an immediate danger of getting completely
>shut out.

Ten out of about 300 public airports (of which I've landed at 250)?
This is about 4%. I think this sucks. I'm not gonna run the numbers
now, but I'd guess 12% of these 300 airports, 36 of them, are
5000 ft+, unattended, and with light enough traffic that some
coordination, NOTAMs, and support/qualification by SSA/FAA/DPEs
would result in no more than a few occasional runway lights
getting zinged, and a heck of a lot of FUN for a lot of folks.

For the price of a $220 towhook, some $10 rings, $100 worth of rope,
a door hinge, and some truck gas? This seems like a real winner.
A $1500 2-22, $320 for liability only, some elbow grease
(mostly to fix up the ol' beast), and we got a party.
Alternately, a nice shiny G-103's probably better ;)

New Coalinga, Porterville, Delano, Visalia, Merced, Castle, Yuba,
Lincoln-Harder, McClellan, Oroville, etc...

The jump guys get permission to use Crow's Landing...how about
auto tow?

>
>There are a few places I can easily see supporting ground launch
>operations, like the still undeveloped Lagoon Valley site, that can no
>longer be used for aero tow due to noise issues. For a decent ground
>launch site, I would guess at 300 to 500 acres of empty land is
>required. For a viable operation, it needs to be within an hour or two
>of a major metropolitan area. For halfway decent soaring conditions, it
>needs to be away from the coast. Given California geography and real
>estate prices, it would be tough to make it work...

Oh, I don't believe it is tough. It would take one thing to make it work:
get the Calif. airport insurance pool to say yes. Then do it at all
of those airports listed. They all meet your criteria. One
airport saying yes and a coupla accident free trials and a nice
SOP, and I bet there'd be FUN and interest.

Did I mention it'd be cheap? Isn't this one of the real
big problems in this sport? Boy I'd love to see auto-tow be
"OK" at all these airfields. From what I've read historically,
this used to be standard "no problem" at a public airport.
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

[Marc Ramsey]

F.L. Whiteley wrote:
> Why PASCO or RESCO don't own/operate winches is beyond me.

I can't speak for RESCO, but I guess I can for PASCO. We are
essentially an educational and promotional organization, so we aren't in
a position to actually operate anything. We've had enough problems
figuring out how to manage the set of scales we keep around for Region
11 contest use.

Now, if anyone wants to talk about getting a group together and
building/buying a modern winch for use in Region 11, talk to me...

Marc

[Mark James Boyd]

F.L. Whiteley > wrote:
>>
>Efficiency and safety are likely to get in the way, politically. We have
>ground launched at the local public airport on a demonstration basis during
>open hours day with lots of power traffic. However on a day to day basis
>the airport manager apparently has rejected CAP plans to aerotow from the
>same airport. Why the CAP stopped to ask, I have no idea.

CAP always has to ask...

>There are a few publicly funded, uncontrolled airports in on the western
>Colorado slope that have been used for ground launch. These are a bit
>remote, but great soaring areas and would make excellent camp sites. In
>fact, winch launching or auto tow are logistically easier as there's not
>avgas on site, meaning an extra vehicle to haul drums if the tow plane comes
>along. We plan on using one private (6000') and one public strip (7000')

Excellent points. Towplanes are a bit in need of support equipment..

As I count up the 5000+ runways without a tower in CA,
there are 38, but only 4 of them: L04 (Holtville),
SAS (Salton Sea), L94 (Tehachapi MTN), PRB (Paso Robles)
have no lights.

Interesting, Tehachapi MTN lists "auto tow by special arrangement" and is
apparently a public airport. Hmmm...

I've been to the other three also. Salton Sea is just a big flat
dry salt lake with a windsock and some "markings." Ideal place.
Holtville and Paso Robles have clutter on runway sides.

>If you want unencumbered access for soaring, something like this is prudent
>http://www.airsailing.org/
>
>Although it may be also quiet cheap to lease land on a long term lease (when
>compared to buying and paying taxes) and set up a ground launch operation.
>I can show you places within a 45min drive of my place where we could quite
>literally pay out 10K worth of spectra behind a vehicle and launch to great
>heights. HG pilots use this area for auto launch frequently.
>
>The places to look for are potential ridge top or ridge bottom sites. In
>some cases a BLM patent can be secured and away you go. It just takes some
>vision and initiative and a sensible approach. The SSA club committee
>highly recommends organizing a 501c(3) and pressing ahead with securing
>access to a primo site. Getting it close in may be problematic. Why PASCO
>or RESCO don't own/operate winches is beyond me.
>Frank Whiteley

Thanks for the ideas, I'll pass them along...
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

[Craig Freeman]

(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:<4046baa4$1@darkstar>...
> I spent a good portion of the past few days looking into
> auto-tow launching. After some fairly extensive
> searching, I found that, as far as I can tell, nobody has
> used auto-tow OR winch launch at a public airport
> in four years.
>
>
> Does anyone know of a US public airport that has allowed auto-tow
> in the past five years? How about winch?
>
Permian Soaring Association, Odessa Texas, winch launches every flyable
weekend. We can also auto tow if we want to. We operate from taxiways.
We have a club member on the airport safety board. No problems. Sailplanes
have been auto/aero/winch/ launched from Schleymeyer Field for at least
the last thirty years.

Craig-

[Bob]

(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:<4046baa4$1@darkstar>...

>
> Does anyone know of a US public airport that has allowed auto-tow
> in the past five years? How about winch?
>

The Vultures Soaring Club winch launch at Marlette MI in the summer months.
Traffic hasn't been too much of a problem just yet but who knows when...


Bob

[Skip Guimond]

Kutztown Airport in Kutztown, PA (commercial public use) offered winch
launch until they recently sold their winch. I do not believe that
there was enough interest to support its upkeep.

Within the past several weeks we aero towed from a towered airport in
Harrisburg, PA to retrieve a Blanik which received service there.
While coordination with the tower was necessary, we had no problems,
and must praise the tower personnel for their assistance.

Skip Guimond

[JJ Sinclair]

>
>Now, if anyone wants to talk about getting a group together and
>building/buying a modern winch for use in Region 11, talk to me...
>
>Marc

Hey Marc,
I got 10K of nylin tape (1000# test) and have been just itching to auto-tow the
Bowlus. The Black Rock Desert has 30 miles of table flat runway with a 1000
foot ridge just north on the southern end.

We auto-towed the Bowlus at Orland (Haigh) but I don't recommend mixing it up
with power traffic. Somebody's going to get fouled up with the cable and we
will be found wrong.
JJ Sinclair

[Michael]

(Mark James Boyd) wrote
> I spent a good portion of the past few days looking into
> auto-tow launching. After some fairly extensive
> searching, I found that, as far as I can tell, nobody has
> used auto-tow OR winch launch at a public airport
> in four years.

That comes as a surprise to me since I got my ground launch
endorsement at a public airport (Caddo Mills, TX - 7F3) with a
commercial operation - Southwest Soaring
(http://www.southwestsoaring.com).

This was just a year ago, and the web site indicates auto tows are
still done.

> This was quite troubling to me. It seems public airports have
> rejected ground launch entirely.

Actually, that hasn't been my impression at all. Hearne (KLHB) seems
quite happy to have autotows. These are hang-gliders and paragliders,
but I have a hard time believing they would object to gliders. I know
that when the club I belinged to stopped doing autotows at Hearne,
this was a club decision rather than an airport decision.

> Hmmm...I was a bit surprised at how little the "public" airports
> support soaring.

Actually, I've never noticed that at all.

When the FBO I instruct for began to have financial disagreements with
the city of Bryan (which owns Coulter Field - CFD), soaring was never
a bone of contention. Coulter continues to support a skydiving
operation as well, and several ultralights are housed there. The
operator was offered several new homes, including a local towered
field with airline traffic. He eventually settled on Navasota (60R),
a local municipal field where he got a better deal (I assume). I was
slow in moving my glider, but the new FBO at Coulter was only too
happy to have me there paying tiedown. I was told that if I wanted to
keep a towplane there and be based there, that was cool too. I
aerotowed out of there with the full cooperation of the new FBO - in
fact, the line guy offered to run my wing.

Bottom line, it has been my experience that, at least in Texas, most
public airports are happy to have any recognized aeronautical activity
that generates revenue, including soaring, and work to integrate the
activity into the normal flow of operations rather than forbidding it.

> Sure, sure they turn a blind eye to
> the occasional aero-retrieve, but if anything happened, the
> "walked on the runway" illegality would absolve the airport of any
> liability...

Why exactly should the airport have any liability in the first place,
and why do you object to them taking steps to limit it? This kind of
attitude might explain the problems you have with airport access in
California.

Michael

[Greg Arnold]

Marc Ramsey wrote:

> F.L. Whiteley wrote:
> > Why PASCO or RESCO don't own/operate winches is beyond me.
>
> I can't speak for RESCO, but I guess I can for PASCO. We are
> essentially an educational and promotional organization, so we aren't in
> a position to actually operate anything. We've had enough problems
> figuring out how to manage the set of scales we keep around for Region
> 11 contest use.

Likewise for RESCO, except it does't even have a pair of scales.

>
> Now, if anyone wants to talk about getting a group together and
> building/buying a modern winch for use in Region 11, talk to me...
>
> Marc

[Cliff Hilty]

Last summer we did a few auto tows out of Tonapah
NV (thanks to Jim Dingus for bringing the rope and
truck). We even had the FBO manager drive for us! 2000'
of rope, 1 6cylinder truck, 2 gliders and a couple
of 500k's later and it was all smiles:)

[Larry Pardue]

"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
news:4046baa4$1@darkstar...
> I spent a good portion of the past few days looking into
> auto-tow launching. After some fairly extensive
> searching, I found that, as far as I can tell, nobody has
> used auto-tow OR winch launch at a public airport
> in four years.
>

About 90 percent of my launches are by auto-tow on the ramp at Hobbs
Industrial Airpark, a city owned, public use airport with limited power
traffic. The club at Hobbs does not own a towplane and they launch almost
completely by winch. Local power traffic is sophisticated about the
problems of ground launch and the people doing ground launch are careful.
It has been many years since there were any incidents. One I heard about
was a Bonanza getting a prop tangled up in a winch wire on the ground.

I keep a reel in the back of my Ford Escape that has the 1500 foot launch
rope on it. After a launch the rope is reeled in by an electric motor on
the reel. Very tidy and easy. I average around 1,200 feet on the very long
ramp at Hobbs with a PW-5. Rarely do I have to take a relight but when I do
I feel like I can stand the 35 cents or so it costs to take another one.
Those $40 contest tows are quite a shock for me.

Larry Pardue 2I

[Eric Greenwell]

Larry Pardue wrote:

> I keep a reel in the back of my Ford Escape that has the 1500 foot launch
> rope on it. After a launch the rope is reeled in by an electric motor on
> the reel. Very tidy and easy. I average around 1,200 feet on the very long
> ramp at Hobbs with a PW-5. Rarely do I have to take a relight but when I do
> I feel like I can stand the 35 cents or so it costs to take another one.
> Those $40 contest tows are quite a shock for me.

I'll bet! Do you tow anything heavier than the PW5, and how does that
work out?

--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Larry Pardue]

"Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
...
> Larry Pardue wrote:
>
> > I keep a reel in the back of my Ford Escape that has the 1500 foot
launch
> > rope on it. After a launch the rope is reeled in by an electric motor
on
> > the reel. Very tidy and easy. I average around 1,200 feet on the very
long
> > ramp at Hobbs with a PW-5. Rarely do I have to take a relight but when
I do
> > I feel like I can stand the 35 cents or so it costs to take another one.
> > Those $40 contest tows are quite a shock for me.
>
> I'll bet! Do you tow anything heavier than the PW5, and how does that
> work out?
>

I used to tow my Mini-Nimbus with a 140 HP Ford Taurus wagon. I actually
got better tows with that setup, I think because of a more favorable CG hook
position, but I never car-launched with much water because I was HP limited.
Instructions to the tow driver were "floorboard it until I get off."
Launches with a 1,500 foot rope were usually to about 1,400 feet. I'm sure
my present 200 HP vehicle would launch an 1,100 lb gross glider with no
problem but I would want a stronger rope than my present 1/4 inch dacron
(Wings and Wheels $270). I have launched a friend's Ventus a few times with
the Escape and he gets real good launches. With the Mini-Nimbus and a well
worn rope, I would get some rope breaks.

Larry Pardue 2I

[Bill Daniels]

"Larry Pardue" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Larry Pardue wrote:
> >
> > > I keep a reel in the back of my Ford Escape that has the 1500 foot
> launch
> > > rope on it. After a launch the rope is reeled in by an electric motor
> on
> > > the reel. Very tidy and easy. I average around 1,200 feet on the
very
> long
> > > ramp at Hobbs with a PW-5. Rarely do I have to take a relight but
when
> I do
> > > I feel like I can stand the 35 cents or so it costs to take another
one.
> > > Those $40 contest tows are quite a shock for me.
> >
> > I'll bet! Do you tow anything heavier than the PW5, and how does that
> > work out?
> >
>
> I used to tow my Mini-Nimbus with a 140 HP Ford Taurus wagon. I actually
> got better tows with that setup, I think because of a more favorable CG
hook
> position, but I never car-launched with much water because I was HP
limited.
> Instructions to the tow driver were "floorboard it until I get off."
> Launches with a 1,500 foot rope were usually to about 1,400 feet. I'm
sure
> my present 200 HP vehicle would launch an 1,100 lb gross glider with no
> problem but I would want a stronger rope than my present 1/4 inch dacron
> (Wings and Wheels $270). I have launched a friend's Ventus a few times
with
> the Escape and he gets real good launches. With the Mini-Nimbus and a
well
> worn rope, I would get some rope breaks.
>
> Larry Pardue 2I
>
>

Folks who do this know, ground launch is CHEAP FUN! With a good operation,
it's FAST too.

One way I have thought about for airports that share runways with power
traffic is to put the winch on a truck. When the glider is ready, drive the
truck mounted winch down the runway paying out the cable, quickly launch
glider and suck in the cable before it falls to the ground, then drive the
winch clear of the runway and back to the start point for the next launch.
That way, the winch, cable and glider are on the runway for only a couple of
minutes. It also reduces the wear on the cable significantly while keeping
the cable away from the runway edge lighting.

Bill Daniels

[BTIZ]

We aero tow off a county run airport with an operating permit.. when they
rebuilt the airport from one dirt strip to 2 paved parallel, they used our
"traffic count" to justify the FAA $$, and they built a "power" and "glider"
runway.. no lights or other obstructions on the glider runway, and the
infield is bladed level with the runway.. Jean NV


BT

"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
news:4046baa4$1@darkstar...
> I spent a good portion of the past few days looking into
> auto-tow launching. After some fairly extensive
> searching, I found that, as far as I can tell, nobody has
> used auto-tow OR winch launch at a public airport
> in four years.
>
> LaGrange-Callaway GA (SES) used to do winch, and according to the airport
> manager that was stopped there because it interfered with the
> traffic there.
>
> Bend, Oregon couldn't remember when auto-tow was used last, and
> after my call the city engineer suggested perhaps they should change the
> "auto-tow by special request" to "no auto-tows allowed."
> So my inquiry actually perhaps has now closed even the possibility at that
> airport.
>
> Does anyone know of a US public airport that has allowed auto-tow
> in the past five years? How about winch?
>
> This was quite troubling to me. It seems public airports have
> rejected ground launch entirely. I wonder when aero-tow out of
> public airports will completely disappear as well, including
aero-retrieve.
> Public airport managers certainly can prohibit (in writing) a person
> from walking on the runway and hooking up a towline. I suppose a
> careful reading of just about every airport policy document already
> prohibits this.
>
> I hadn't really believed this until I talked to four airport managers.
> Without a clear YES from the Calif. public airport insurance "pool",
> and no overriding benefit to the airport, it looks like (non-self launch)
> gliders can generally use public airports legally only as
> landouts to trailer from. Sure, sure they turn a blind eye to
> the occasional aero-retrieve, but if anything happened, the
> "walked on the runway" illegality would absolve the airport of any
> liability...
>
> Soaring departures from private and military/CAP airports only?
> I guess that's pretty much it. And if most gliders sold are mostly
> motorgliders, I'm guessing even tow will become more rare.
>
> Does anyone know the numbers of public airports that used to
> have tow or ground launch operations years ago vs. today?
>
> Hmmm...I was a bit surprised at how little the "public" airports
> support soaring. Well, at least they make good landouts...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> ------------+
> Mark Boyd
> Avenal, California, USA

[BTIZ]

I thought Tehachapi MTN was a private airport, and he needs a heads up to
get his auto tow rig ready..

BT

"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
news:4046f7ef$1@darkstar...
> F.L. Whiteley > wrote:
> >>
> >Efficiency and safety are likely to get in the way, politically. We have
> >ground launched at the local public airport on a demonstration basis
during
> >open hours day with lots of power traffic. However on a day to day basis
> >the airport manager apparently has rejected CAP plans to aerotow from the
> >same airport. Why the CAP stopped to ask, I have no idea.
>
> CAP always has to ask...
>
> >There are a few publicly funded, uncontrolled airports in on the western
> >Colorado slope that have been used for ground launch. These are a bit
> >remote, but great soaring areas and would make excellent camp sites. In
> >fact, winch launching or auto tow are logistically easier as there's not
> >avgas on site, meaning an extra vehicle to haul drums if the tow plane
comes
> >along. We plan on using one private (6000') and one public strip (7000')
>
> Excellent points. Towplanes are a bit in need of support equipment..
>
> As I count up the 5000+ runways without a tower in CA,
> there are 38, but only 4 of them: L04 (Holtville),
> SAS (Salton Sea), L94 (Tehachapi MTN), PRB (Paso Robles)
> have no lights.
>
> Interesting, Tehachapi MTN lists "auto tow by special arrangement" and is
> apparently a public airport. Hmmm...
>
> I've been to the other three also. Salton Sea is just a big flat
> dry salt lake with a windsock and some "markings." Ideal place.
> Holtville and Paso Robles have clutter on runway sides.
>
> >If you want unencumbered access for soaring, something like this is
prudent
> >http://www.airsailing.org/
> >
> >Although it may be also quiet cheap to lease land on a long term lease
(when
> >compared to buying and paying taxes) and set up a ground launch
operation.
> >I can show you places within a 45min drive of my place where we could
quite
> >literally pay out 10K worth of spectra behind a vehicle and launch to
great
> >heights. HG pilots use this area for auto launch frequently.
> >
> >The places to look for are potential ridge top or ridge bottom sites. In
> >some cases a BLM patent can be secured and away you go. It just takes
some
> >vision and initiative and a sensible approach. The SSA club committee
> >highly recommends organizing a 501c(3) and pressing ahead with securing
> >access to a primo site. Getting it close in may be problematic. Why
PASCO
> >or RESCO don't own/operate winches is beyond me.
> >Frank Whiteley
>
> Thanks for the ideas, I'll pass them along...
> --
>
> ------------+
> Mark Boyd
> Avenal, California, USA

[F.L. Whiteley]

"Greg Arnold" > wrote in message
news:zIJ1c.12165$Zp.12091@fed1read07...
> Marc Ramsey wrote:
>
> > F.L. Whiteley wrote:
> > > Why PASCO or RESCO don't own/operate winches is beyond me.
> >
> > I can't speak for RESCO, but I guess I can for PASCO. We are
> > essentially an educational and promotional organization, so we aren't in
> > a position to actually operate anything. We've had enough problems
> > figuring out how to manage the set of scales we keep around for Region
> > 11 contest use.
>
> Likewise for RESCO, except it does't even have a pair of scales.
>
> >
> > Now, if anyone wants to talk about getting a group together and
> > building/buying a modern winch for use in Region 11, talk to me...
> >
> > Marc
Winch launching would be 'real' educational;^)

Does PASCO still operate an oxygen cart for wave camps?

Frank

[Marc Ramsey]

F.L. Whiteley wrote:
> Winch launching would be 'real' educational;^)

That it would be...

> Does PASCO still operate an oxygen cart for wave camps?

No, the oxygen cart is long gone, along with the PASCO wave camps.
There is plenty of oxygen (and tows) available from the two FBOs at
Minden, year round.

Marc

[F.L. Whiteley]

"Marc Ramsey" > wrote in message
om...
> F.L. Whiteley wrote:
> > Winch launching would be 'real' educational;^)
>
> That it would be...
>
> > Does PASCO still operate an oxygen cart for wave camps?
>
> No, the oxygen cart is long gone, along with the PASCO wave camps.
> There is plenty of oxygen (and tows) available from the two FBOs at
> Minden, year round.
>
> Marc

Glad I still have my rather ragged 1984 PASCO Wave Camp T-Shirt then.

Frank

[Mark James Boyd]

In article >,
>Larry Pardue wrote:
>
>> I keep a reel in the back of my Ford Escape that has the 1500 foot launch
>> rope on it. After a launch the rope is reeled in by an electric motor on
>> the reel. Very tidy and easy. I average around 1,200 feet on the very long
>> ramp at Hobbs with a PW-5. Rarely do I have to take a relight but when I do
>> I feel like I can stand the 35 cents or so it costs to take another one.
>> Those $40 contest tows are quite a shock for me.

I am learning more about auto-launch, and it sounds fantastic.
And the lighter gliders are seeming more and more appealing
as I learn more. A 155# or even 300# glider with a yuppie
at 170# is gonna accelerate much better, perhaps well enough
to simply winch launch off a truck (with a winch mounted in the
back).

I've heard numbers of 100-300# of tension for the light gliders
on winch or auto tow. Does this sound about right?
This certainly meshes with the numbers I would expect...
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

[Bill Daniels]

"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
news:404cea0d$1@darkstar...
> In article >,
> >Larry Pardue wrote:
> >
> >> I keep a reel in the back of my Ford Escape that has the 1500 foot
launch
> >> rope on it. After a launch the rope is reeled in by an electric motor
on
> >> the reel. Very tidy and easy. I average around 1,200 feet on the very
long
> >> ramp at Hobbs with a PW-5. Rarely do I have to take a relight but when
I do
> >> I feel like I can stand the 35 cents or so it costs to take another
one.
> >> Those $40 contest tows are quite a shock for me.
>
> I am learning more about auto-launch, and it sounds fantastic.
> And the lighter gliders are seeming more and more appealing
> as I learn more. A 155# or even 300# glider with a yuppie
> at 170# is gonna accelerate much better, perhaps well enough
> to simply winch launch off a truck (with a winch mounted in the
> back).
>
> I've heard numbers of 100-300# of tension for the light gliders
> on winch or auto tow. Does this sound about right?
> This certainly meshes with the numbers I would expect...
> --
>
> ------------+
> Mark Boyd
> Avenal, California, USA

The maximum rope tension is usually determined by the glider maker as stated
in the ground launch weak link strength specification. Typically max gross
weight times 1.2 to 1.5. Check your POH. That said, the typical line
tension at the glider is roughly equal to the GW for an optimum launch.

It's been my experience that smaller gliders don't do as well as larger
gliders on ground launch. Maybe it has something to do with Reynolds
numbers or maybe the weight of the cable as a percentage of the glider's
gross weight.

Bill Daniels