World Class: Recent Great News

[Charles Yeates]

With Spring and a new season arriving, here are some absolutely GREAT news
for the World Class:

- Our Breakfast event at the Convention was the best attended ever. A full
room, with 36 attending, made this the largest breakfast event for the
World
Class, and one of the largest breakfast events at the Convention. We are
definitely growing...
Our friend Miroslav Rodzewicz from Warsaw University of Technology gave a
beautiful presentation about the history of gliding in Poland and about
the long
series of Polish glider designs, including of course the Orlik, Foka,
Zephir,
Jantars, SZDs, and PW-5 and 6, among many others. I gave a brief
overview of
the WCSA status and plans for 2004. With the National in Hobbs and an
Eastern
Regional at Bermuda High Soaring, it looks like a great year in the making.

Now to the several VERY GREAT NEWS: The IGC (International Gliding
Commission, the international body of the Federation Aeronautique
Internationalle - FAI,
that deals with all matters of Soaring internationally) has a World Class
Subcommittee, which is responsible for following-up and reporting to IGC
the
developments related to the World Class. I am on that Subcommittee,
together with
6 other people. The 2004 plenary meeting of the IGC, where all important
matters and proposals related to international Soaring are presented and
voted on,
took place Feb 27-28 in Lausanne, Switzerland. The World Class Subcommittee
decided to hold a meeting the day before the IGC plenary meeting to address
important issues. Of concern was a proposal by the German delegation to
discontinue having World Championships of the World Class after 2009
(the World Class
was guaranteed to have World Championships until 2009 in previous
meetings) and
replace that event with a new 20-meter two-seater class World Championship.
Similar proposals were also submitted by the French (replace with a 13m
class)
and the Italians (replace with a 13m motorglider class).
- After discussing the matter, the Subcommittee decided that the proposals
were likely the result of a lack of information about the progress of
the World
Class, and decided to prepare a presentation, which I delivered during the
plenary session the next day, outlining the successes of the World Class
in many
countries. As a result of the presentation, the Italians and French
withdrew
their proposals. The German proposal was voted upon and overwhelmingly
defeated
(with only the German voting for their proposal). So the IGC overwhelmingly
reiterated their support of the World Class, in particular as a class in
the
World Championship. First very great news.
- The IGC Subcommittee on World Championships Structure had a proposal
regarding the organization of the post-2006 World Championship events.
This proposal
was voted on and passed. So, it is now official: Starting with the 2008
events, the World Soaring Championships will be held in two major
venues, one
regrouping the Open, 18m, and 15m classes, and the second regrouping the
Standard,
World, and Club classes. Each country will be allowed up to two pilots per
class. This essentially puts all 6 FAI classes on the same level for these
events, and it is another great news for the World Class.
- For the 2006 World Championships, the Lithuanians and the French
presented
their proposals to hold events combining the World and Club classes. The
French won, and the 2006 World Championships of the World and Club
classes will be
held June 30-July 15, 2006 in Vinon, France (about 30 Km south of St.
Auban,
where the 1997 WGC took place). This is a great place to fly, about 50
miles
from the foothills of the Alps, with beautiful scenery (it is in the
heart of
Provence) and with great weather, which practically guarantees a lot of
great
flying and a superb contest. I talked with the French delegation and
they are
very aware of the need to, and very willing to work on, finding local
(European)
gliders for overseas teams. So, things look very good for 2006.
- By the way, the bid for the 2008 WGC regrouping the Standard, World, and
Club classes will be due in March 2005. Is hosting this 2008 WGC in the USA
something we should start thinking about...?
- An additional great news was announced at the IGC meeting by the PW-5
designers regarding the previous altitude limitation on the PW-5. The
long process
of tests and formalities has been completed and the altitude limit for all
PW-5, including all previously manufactured, is now 11,000 meters
(36,500 ft..
Brrr, must be cold up there). The official papers should be dispatched soon.

So, I thought you'd like to hear all these great news as a good start to
the
Soaring season. By the way, the Regional at Bermuda High, SC is but 60 days
away, and the National is only 4 months away... Make your plans, and if
you are
halfway sure that you will come, PLEASE register on line on the SSA
Website as
soon as you can. It definitely helps the organizers to have an early
count so
that they can plan on tow planes, etc...

Spring is here. Happy flights to all.
Francois

[Ben Flewett]

“Starting with the 2008 events, the World Soaring Championships
will be held in two major venues, one regrouping the
Open, 18m, and 15m classes, and the second grouping
the Standard, World, and Club classes.”

Outstanding. Have any of the people who dreamt up
that idea ever flown a glider…?

Let me spell it out. This means that 40+ fully laden
Standard Class gliders will be flying with 40+ Club
Class gliders and 40 PW5s (assuming 40 people bother
to show up with a PW5). Having attended a number of
international events it is highly apparent that the
most dangerous aspect of flying gliders in large competitions
is pre-start gaggling. Despite recent moves towards
distributed starts, all classes inevitably end up crammed
into two or three thermals around the airfield. On
two occasions I have seen all 100+ gliders in one thermal.

A fully laden Standard Class glider has completely
different flight characteristics from a PW5 or (empty)
Club Class glider. The Standard class ship will fly
approx 12 to 15 knots faster, with a larger turn radius
and higher sink rate. These differences will undoubtedly
pose a very dangerous problem. Even the comparatively
small difference between Open Class and 15m/Standard
Class ships provides challenges in current comps.

I suggest the IGC reconsider this decision urgently.

Regards,

Ben Flewett.


At 18:00 07 March 2004, Charles Yeates wrote:
>With Spring and a new season arriving, here are some
>absolutely GREAT news
>for the World Class:
>
>- Our Breakfast event at the Convention was the best
>attended ever. A full
>room, with 36 attending, made this the largest breakfast
>event for the
>World
>Class, and one of the largest breakfast events at the
>Convention. We are
>definitely growing...
>Our friend Miroslav Rodzewicz from Warsaw University
>of Technology gave a
>beautiful presentation about the history of gliding
>in Poland and about
>the long
>series of Polish glider designs, including of course
>the Orlik, Foka,
>Zephir,
>Jantars, SZDs, and PW-5 and 6, among many others. I
>gave a brief
>overview of
>the WCSA status and plans for 2004. With the National
>in Hobbs and an
>Eastern
>Regional at Bermuda High Soaring, it looks like a great
>year in the making.
>
>Now to the several VERY GREAT NEWS: The IGC (International
>Gliding
>Commission, the international body of the Federation
>Aeronautique
>Internationalle - FAI,
>that deals with all matters of Soaring internationally)
>has a World Class
>Subcommittee, which is responsible for following-up
>and reporting to IGC
>the
>developments related to the World Class. I am on that
>Subcommittee,
>together with
>6 other people. The 2004 plenary meeting of the IGC,
>where all important
>matters and proposals related to international Soaring
>are presented and
>voted on,
>took place Feb 27-28 in Lausanne, Switzerland. The
>World Class Subcommittee
>decided to hold a meeting the day before the IGC plenary
>meeting to address
>important issues. Of concern was a proposal by the
>German delegation to
>discontinue having World Championships of the World
>Class after 2009
>(the World Class
>was guaranteed to have World Championships until 2009
>in previous
>meetings) and
>replace that event with a new 20-meter two-seater class
>World Championship.
>Similar proposals were also submitted by the French
>(replace with a 13m
>class)
>and the Italians (replace with a 13m motorglider class).
>- After discussing the matter, the Subcommittee decided
>that the proposals
>were likely the result of a lack of information about
>the progress of
>the World
>Class, and decided to prepare a presentation, which
>I delivered during the
>plenary session the next day, outlining the successes
>of the World Class
>in many
>countries. As a result of the presentation, the Italians
>and French
>withdrew
>their proposals. The German proposal was voted upon
>and overwhelmingly
>defeated
>(with only the German voting for their proposal). So
>the IGC overwhelmingly
>reiterated their support of the World Class, in particular
>as a class in
>the
>World Championship. First very great news.
>- The IGC Subcommittee on World Championships Structure
>had a proposal
>regarding the organization of the post-2006 World Championship
>events.
>This proposal
>was voted on and passed. So, it is now official: Starting
>with the 2008
>events, the World Soaring Championships will be held
>in two major
>venues, one
>regrouping the Open, 18m, and 15m classes, and the
>second regrouping the
>Standard,
>World, and Club classes. Each country will be allowed
>up to two pilots per
>class. This essentially puts all 6 FAI classes on the
>same level for these
>events, and it is another great news for the World
>Class.
>- For the 2006 World Championships, the Lithuanians
>and the French
>presented
>their proposals to hold events combining the World
>and Club classes. The
>French won, and the 2006 World Championships of the
>World and Club
>classes will be
>held June 30-July 15, 2006 in Vinon, France (about
>30 Km south of St.
>Auban,
>where the 1997 WGC took place). This is a great place
>to fly, about 50
>miles
>from the foothills of the Alps, with beautiful scenery
>(it is in the
>heart of
>Provence) and with great weather, which practically
>guarantees a lot of
>great
>flying and a superb contest. I talked with the French
>delegation and
>they are
>very aware of the need to, and very willing to work
>on, finding local
>(European)
>gliders for overseas teams. So, things look very good
>for 2006.
>- By the way, the bid for the 2008 WGC regrouping the
>Standard, World, and
>Club classes will be due in March 2005. Is hosting
>this 2008 WGC in the USA
>something we should start thinking about...?
>- An additional great news was announced at the IGC
>meeting by the PW-5
>designers regarding the previous altitude limitation
>on the PW-5. The
>long process
>of tests and formalities has been completed and the
>altitude limit for all
>PW-5, including all previously manufactured, is now
>11,000 meters
>(36,500 ft..
>Brrr, must be cold up there). The official papers should
>be dispatched soon.
>
>So, I thought you'd like to hear all these great news
>as a good start to
>the
>Soaring season. By the way, the Regional at Bermuda
>High, SC is but 60 days
>away, and the National is only 4 months away... Make
>your plans, and if
>you are
>halfway sure that you will come, PLEASE register on
>line on the SSA
>Website as
>soon as you can. It definitely helps the organizers
>to have an early
>count so
>that they can plan on tow planes, etc...
>
>Spring is here. Happy flights to all.
>Francois
>
>

[Charles Yeates]

Hmmmmmnn

Ben -- your comments do not match what happened at the the 1999 Leszno,
PL, competition with mobs of Std, 15m and World Class ships flying
together. The kinds of problems you forsee never happened.

Ben Flewett wrote:
> “Starting with the 2008 events, the World Soaring Championships
> will be held in two major venues, one regrouping the
> Open, 18m, and 15m classes, and the second grouping
> the Standard, World, and Club classes.”
>
> Outstanding. Have any of the people who dreamt up
> that idea ever flown a glider…?
>

[Ben Flewett]

Wasn't there - can't comment.

If the problems didn't happen then perhaps I am wrong.
I just can't see how 40 fully laden Std class ships
can cohabitate with 40 PW5's.

By the way - what comp are you talking about...? 1999
was a WGC year (Bayreuth Germany). Was it a juniors
or something...?

B



At 20:54 08 March 2004, Charles Yeates wrote:
>Hmmmmmnn
>
>Ben -- your comments do not match what happened at
>the the 1999 Leszno,
>PL, competition with mobs of Std, 15m and World Class
>ships flying
>together. The kinds of problems you forsee never happened.
>
>Ben Flewett wrote:
>> “Starting with the 2008 events, the World Soaring
>>Championships
>> will be held in two major venues, one regrouping the
>> Open, 18m, and 15m classes, and the second grouping
>> the Standard, World, and Club classes.”
>>
>> Outstanding. Have any of the people who dreamt up
>> that idea ever flown a glider…?
>>
>
>

[Owain Walters]

The Junior Worlds in 1999 was in Terlet, Holland. Not
sure what comp the other guy is on about.

At 09:42 09 March 2004, Ben Flewett wrote:
>Wasn't there - can't comment.
>
>If the problems didn't happen then perhaps I am wrong.
> I just can't see how 40 fully laden Std class ships
>can cohabitate with 40 PW5's.
>
>By the way - what comp are you talking about...? 1999
>was a WGC year (Bayreuth Germany). Was it a juniors
>or something...?
>
>B
>
>
>
>At 20:54 08 March 2004, Charles Yeates wrote:
>>Hmmmmmnn
>>
>>Ben -- your comments do not match what happened at
>>the the 1999 Leszno,
>>PL, competition with mobs of Std, 15m and World Class
>>ships flying
>>together. The kinds of problems you forsee never happened.
>>
>>Ben Flewett wrote:
>>> “Starting with the 2008 events, the World Soaring
>>>Championships
>>> will be held in two major venues, one regrouping the
>>> Open, 18m, and 15m classes, and the second grouping
>>> the Standard, World, and Club classes.”
>>>
>>> Outstanding. Have any of the people who dreamt up
>>> that idea ever flown a glider…?
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

[Marcel Duenner]

Ben Flewett > wrote in message >...
> ?Starting with the 2008 events, the World Soaring Championships
> will be held in two major venues, one regrouping the
> Open, 18m, and 15m classes, and the second grouping
> the Standard, World, and Club classes.?
>
> Outstanding. Have any of the people who dreamt up
> that idea ever flown a glider??
>
> Let me spell it out. This means that 40+ fully laden
> Standard Class gliders will be flying with 40+ Club
> Class gliders and 40 PW5s (assuming 40 people bother
> to show up with a PW5).



I reckon it will be more like 52 + 54 + about 10.
At least this class combination won't ever have the problem of
exceeding the 120 pilots per event limit.

[Charles Yeates]

European women flying the heavy iron and the MEN flying 25 PWees
[>:))All classes started at different well separated points and flew
tasks that rarely had common legs

Ben Flewett wrote:
> Wasn't there - can't comment.
>
> If the problems didn't happen then perhaps I am wrong.
> I just can't see how 40 fully laden Std class ships
> can cohabitate with 40 PW5's.
>
> By the way - what comp are you talking about...? 1999
> was a WGC year (Bayreuth Germany). Was it a juniors
> or something...?
>
> B
>
>
>
> At 20:54 08 March 2004, Charles Yeates wrote:
>
>>Hmmmmmnn
>>
>>Ben -- your comments do not match what happened at
>>the the 1999 Leszno,
>>PL, competition with mobs of Std, 15m and World Class
>>ships flying
>>together. The kinds of problems you forsee never happened.
>>
>>Ben Flewett wrote:
>>
>>>“Starting with the 2008 events, the World Soaring
>>>Championships
>>>will be held in two major venues, one regrouping the
>>>Open, 18m, and 15m classes, and the second grouping
>>>the Standard, World, and Club classes.”
>>>
>>>Outstanding. Have any of the people who dreamt up
>>>that idea ever flown a glider…?
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

[Owain Walters]

I think the point is being missed here.

Why does the IGC continue to support a class that very
few people are interested in. When will we get a one-glider-class
that people want to fly in? Someone mentioned that
it was great that 25 pilots turned to a meeting or
something (I cant be bothered to read back) to do with
the PW5. So what?!?! We have more than 25 people on
the reserve list for the UK Nationals (not PW5 nats
of course, real gliders. We dont have anywhere near
enough interest to hold a rated PW5 competition.).

When will the gliding quango realise that the majority
of sane people dont want to fly the PW5. It is worse
than my glider, in both climb and glide (and certainly
looks), which is over 30 years old!! And its double
the price! What is the point!?!?

When will you people see sense and change the one class
to either the LS4 or the Discus?

Your posting is not 'Great News'; it is indicating
that you are just delaying the inevitable.

[Marcel Duenner]

Charles Yeates > wrote in message >...
> With Spring and a new season arriving, here are some absolutely GREAT news
> for the World Class:
>
> ...Of concern was a proposal by the German delegation to
> discontinue having World Championships of the World Class after 2009
> (the World Class
> was guaranteed to have World Championships until 2009 in previous
> meetings) and
> replace...

I don't know you and I don't know what you said at the IGC meeting but
it must have been retorically f-ing brilliant if you could change the
IGCs mind on discontinuing the WC-WGC after 2009. I still fail to see
why it should be contiued given the fact that the concept of the WC as
it is defined know does not seem to work.


> ...the Subcommittee decided that the proposals
> were likely the result of a lack of information about the progress of
> the World
> Class,....

I seem to lack that kind of information, too. Can you please explain
or even better: send me your presentation?

and decided to prepare a presentation, which I delivered during the
> plenary session the next day, outlining the successes of the World Class
> in many
> countries. As a result of the presentation, the Italians and French
> withdrew
> their proposals. The German proposal was voted upon and overwhelmingly
> defeated
> (with only the German voting for their proposal).

I'll definitely have a word with our delegate about that very soon...


Marcel

Why walk when you can soar?

[G.Kurek]

I'm not a big fan of a flying sperm cell either, but you can forget
that Discus or LS4 will ever become a world class. One of the major
requirement for that class is: can you produce NEW, laminate, low cost
glider that will be widely accessible to everyone that wants to fly?
NOT, can you buy a 30 year old LS3 at the similar price or if you can
buy new Discus for $70,000, making gliding even less accessible for
regular folk. Now take a wild guess dont you see any LS4, or Discus in
majority, if not all American clubs? Is it because Pewee is better? Or
is it because Pewee is cheaper to aquire and operate? If that wasn't
the requirement Poles would probably propose Jantar.

[Mark James Boyd]

I for one am grateful for the World Class idea.
I'm glad IGC didn't kill it. It's nice to have
a very "entry level" competition class/records.

I'd like to see a different glider, perhaps the
AC-4 or Sparrowhawk (or variant), maybe as the
next "entry level" World Class glider.

I flew the Russia retract Saturday. I liked it.

In article >,
Charles Yeates > wrote:
>With Spring and a new season arriving, here are some absolutely GREAT news
>for the World Class:
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

[Ben Flewett]

I see. In other words.... there were only 65 gliders
in attendance and it was nothing like a normal WGC.


At 13:24 09 March 2004, Charles Yeates wrote:
>European women flying the heavy iron and the MEN flying
>25 PWees
>[>:))All classes started at different well separated
>>points and flew
>tasks that rarely had common legs
>
>Ben Flewett wrote:
>> Wasn't there - can't comment.
>>
>> If the problems didn't happen then perhaps I am wrong.
>> I just can't see how 40 fully laden Std class ships
>> can cohabitate with 40 PW5's.
>>
>> By the way - what comp are you talking about...?
>>1999
>> was a WGC year (Bayreuth Germany). Was it a juniors
>> or something...?
>>
>> B
>>
>>
>>
>> At 20:54 08 March 2004, Charles Yeates wrote:
>>
>>>Hmmmmmnn
>>>
>>>Ben -- your comments do not match what happened at
>>>the the 1999 Leszno,
>>>PL, competition with mobs of Std, 15m and World Class
>>>ships flying
>>>together. The kinds of problems you forsee never happened.
>>>
>>>Ben Flewett wrote:
>>>
>>>>“Starting with the 2008 events, the World Soaring
>>>>Championships
>>>>will be held in two major venues, one regrouping the
>>>>Open, 18m, and 15m classes, and the second grouping
>>>>the Standard, World, and Club classes.”
>>>>
>>>>Outstanding. Have any of the people who dreamt up
>>>>that idea ever flown a glider…?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Owain Walters]

I know what the current requirements are. But again,
the point is being missed. The current requirements
are nothing but an obstacle - no-one wants to fly these
things. So why not change the requirements? Why does
it have to be new?

As for the entry level competition - what is the point
of the US sports class and regional competitions? I
know that in the UK the regional competitions are generally
the first competitions people fly and arguably it is
working well.

Although, I do actually think there is merit to a competition
that provides a starting point for pilots who are starting
out why should it be something as pointless as the
PW5. And why should there be a World Champs if you
only fly them as an entry level competition. As for
the records - whats the point in record flying if you
acknowledge this is only an 'entry level' record?

BTW - poeple should look at glider ads a bit more often.
I know of at least one LS4 for $29.5k and a Discus
A for <$50k. How much is a fully instrumented, trailered
PW5?

[Ben Flewett]

All valid points but....

You get what you pay for and nobody wants to buy a
PW5 because they are overpriced rubbish. That is why
the World Class concept has failed in it's current
format.

I am a great fan of the World Class concept and will
happily sell my D2 and buy a World Class glider. But
I am not spending $20,000 on a glider that goes no
better than the $4000 K6 I owned when I was an 18 year
old student - especially as it would mean I couldn't
fly against a large number of top pilots as I can in
the D2.




At 20:54 09 March 2004, G.Kurek wrote:
>I'm not a big fan of a flying sperm cell either, but
>you can forget
>that Discus or LS4 will ever become a world class.
>One of the major
>requirement for that class is: can you produce NEW,
>laminate, low cost
>glider that will be widely accessible to everyone that
>wants to fly?
>NOT, can you buy a 30 year old LS3 at the similar price
>or if you can
>buy new Discus for $70,000, making gliding even less
>accessible for
>regular folk. Now take a wild guess dont you see any
>LS4, or Discus in
>majority, if not all American clubs? Is it because
>Pewee is better? Or
>is it because Pewee is cheaper to aquire and operate?
> If that wasn't
>the requirement Poles would probably propose Jantar.
>

[Ben Flewett]

Taking that argument to it's logical conclusion we
should nominate a hang-glider as the new World Class
glider.

The World Class was never supposed to be an entry level
glider - it was supposed to be a glider that anyone
and everyone could and WOULD want to compete in. The
idea was to have a GLIDER we could all compete in -
not a paper dart.

And what is the point of retracting the undercarridge
on a Russia?


At 00:54 10 March 2004, Mark James Boyd wrote:
>I for one am grateful for the World Class idea.
>I'm glad IGC didn't kill it. It's nice to have
>a very 'entry level' competition class/records.
>
>I'd like to see a different glider, perhaps the
>AC-4 or Sparrowhawk (or variant), maybe as the
>next 'entry level' World Class glider.
>
>I flew the Russia retract Saturday. I liked it.
>
>In article ,
>Charles Yeates wrote:
>>With Spring and a new season arriving, here are some
>>absolutely GREAT news
>>for the World Class:
>--
>
>------------+
>Mark Boyd
>Avenal, California, USA
>

[Eric Greenwell]

Ben Flewett wrote:

> Taking that argument to it's logical conclusion we
> should nominate a hang-glider as the new World Class
> glider.
>
> The World Class was never supposed to be an entry level
> glider - it was supposed to be a glider that anyone
> and everyone could and WOULD want to compete in. The
> idea was to have a GLIDER we could all compete in -
> not a paper dart.

Some revisionist history going on here: I was on SSA Board of Directors
when the World Class was proposed, and these NEVER were the goals. NO
ONE, at the time, espoused the idea that everyone, or even a large
minority, would want to fly the World Class Glider.
--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Going fer it]

Ben - winter getting to you dear Boy......


Of course we could make the World Class the competition that hotshots
want to fly.

...
...
...
...

Make the International winner $100,000 richer and I suspect you wont
have any complaints from top guns wanting to earn a bit of extra coin
:-)

Who gives a toss about what they look like, topguns will then say its
the $100K they will earn that will make them want to compete.

BMW owners will always look down their noses at Hyundai owners........




Ben Flewett > wrote in message >...
> All valid points but....
>
> You get what you pay for and nobody wants to buy a
> PW5 because they are overpriced rubbish. That is why
> the World Class concept has failed in it's current
> format.
>
> I am a great fan of the World Class concept and will
> happily sell my D2 and buy a World Class glider. But
> I am not spending $20,000 on a glider that goes no
> better than the $4000 K6 I owned when I was an 18 year
> old student - especially as it would mean I couldn't
> fly against a large number of top pilots as I can in
> the D2.
>
>
>
>
> At 20:54 09 March 2004, G.Kurek wrote:
> >I'm not a big fan of a flying sperm cell either, but
> >you can forget
> >that Discus or LS4 will ever become a world class.
> >One of the major
> >requirement for that class is: can you produce NEW,
> >laminate, low cost
> >glider that will be widely accessible to everyone that
> >wants to fly?
> >NOT, can you buy a 30 year old LS3 at the similar price
> >or if you can
> >buy new Discus for $70,000, making gliding even less
> >accessible for
> >regular folk. Now take a wild guess dont you see any
> >LS4, or Discus in
> >majority, if not all American clubs? Is it because
> >Pewee is better? Or
> >is it because Pewee is cheaper to aquire and operate?
> > If that wasn't
> >the requirement Poles would probably propose Jantar.
> >

[G.Kurek]

So what are the alternatives to replace a Pw-5? NEW of course...

[Larry Pardue]

"Ben Flewett" > wrote in message
...
> All valid points but....
>
> You get what you pay for and nobody wants to buy a
> PW5 because they are overpriced rubbish. That is why
> the World Class concept has failed in it's current
> format.
>

I am biased as a PW-5 owner but am at a complete loss to understand why so
much vitriol is hurled at the design. Everyone makes their choices and pays
their money and that is fine. It would just never occur to me to denigrate
all the designs I did not choose and believe me they all have their
drawbacks.

I could say:

I would never buy a motorglider. You pay all that money and get an
unreliable smoky engine where the new prop bearings may seize and that
sounds like a lawnmower and that can't fly with any kind of reasonably low
wingloading. Also you don't deserve any records you set or contests you win
because of the motor advantage.

I wouldn't buy any of those modern, expensive German gliders. They are
finished with junk that is easy to apply and smooth but that disintegrates
in a few years requiring a refinishing that cost as much as a used glider.
This is not to mention the spar shrinkage that may happen in just a year or
so of southwest US heat. Then of course I will have to replace it in 5
years to stay competitive.

I wouldn't buy any cheap Eastern European open class glider. How would you
ever find the help to do that heavy rigging and it is not competitive in any
class except maybe Sports.

I wouldn't buy any 2nd or 3rd generation back 15 meter or standard class
ship. What classes are they competitive in now? Either none or maybe
Sports Class if you are lucky. Yeh, I guess you can fly with your buddies
if that interests you. Hard to get better if you are trying to fly with,
instead of faster, than your buddies.

I could say all that and parts of it would be true. Why would I want to?
I'm not offended when people make other choices, I just enjoy the beauty and
technology of the gliders they purchase.

So there you have it. The 1-26 was and is a successful one-design class, in
the US only. The low performance can be a disadvantage in some areas and it
can not use a compact trailer. The PW-5 has the advantage of more modern
materials and more performance and of being an international class. The big
idea is it is a one-design class, not that it should compete with the LS-4.
A side advantage is that it is inexpensive. What new glider is cheaper?
Not fair to compare to used gliders. It is far from being the prettiest
glider out there and I sure do appreciate the beauty of an ASW-28, but I can
live with that for the advantages it does have. The class hasn't grown as
fast as hoped, but it seems to be doing about as well as Open Class (or
Standard last year) and I don't hear a lot of uproar again that class.

My B1 model has a polyurethane finish that I expect to last for a long long
time. It has automatic hookups. It seems as well built as any recent
German glider I have seen. It does not have any indication of spar
shrinkage, after some hot summers. It is extremely easy to handle on the
ground and to rig and derig. It is and will remain, as long as the class
endures, a cutting edge glider in the World Class and, at least for now,
Sports Class, all without messing with the considerable hassles of water
ballast. This means I don't have to replace it every few years.

I am very happy with the glider and hope everyone else is happy with their
choices.

Larry Pardue 2I

Shaking in my boots about competing against John Byrd on an EQUAL BASIS this
summer.

[Tom Claffey]

Mark,
These light gliders are a good idea, however the whole concept is for
a one design class so that Pilot performance only counts. The
Sparrowhawk and Russia are interesting gliders but are NOT the World
Class glider, the PW5 is. As someone who has flown one at above World
record performance [undeclared] on my one flight in it [and my Wife
achieved 4 World Records next day on a below average, blue Nevada
day]I agree the Piwi is not suitable for the reasons Ben says. He is
also correct in his comments on gaggles in heavy Standard class
gliders verses light gliders.
To get a true one design comp going we need 40:1 + performance, the
LS4 is the obvious choice, built perhaps in eastern Europe or China to
keep costs down.
There are probably 5 times as many ASH25's in the world as PW5's so
the Piwi has proven to be a failure by the lack of buyers, even clubs
who bought them initially have sold them.
Tom Claffey



(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:<404e65b0$1@darkstar>...
> I for one am grateful for the World Class idea.
> I'm glad IGC didn't kill it. It's nice to have
> a very "entry level" competition class/records.
>
> I'd like to see a different glider, perhaps the
> AC-4 or Sparrowhawk (or variant), maybe as the
> next "entry level" World Class glider.
>
> I flew the Russia retract Saturday. I liked it.
>
> In article >,
> Charles Yeates > wrote:
> >With Spring and a new season arriving, here are some absolutely GREAT news
> >for the World Class:

[Eric Greenwell]

Tom Claffey wrote:

> There are probably 5 times as many ASH25's in the world as PW5's so
> the Piwi has proven to be a failure by the lack of buyers, even clubs
> who bought them initially have sold them.
> Tom Claffey

I really don't have dog in this fight, but wouldn't that be over 1000
ASH 25s? I'm thinking that's WAYYYY more than were produced! I mean,
there were "only" about 1000 ASW 20s produced, and I sure see a lot more
of those than 25s.
--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Mark James Boyd]

In article >,
Tom Claffey > wrote:
>Mark,
>These light gliders are a good idea, however the whole concept is for
>a one design class so that Pilot performance only counts. The
>Sparrowhawk and Russia are interesting gliders but are NOT the World
>Class glider, the PW5 is. As someone who has flown one at above World
>record performance [undeclared] on my one flight in it [and my Wife
>achieved 4 World Records next day on a below average, blue Nevada
>day]I agree the Piwi is not suitable for the reasons Ben says. He is
>also correct in his comments on gaggles in heavy Standard class
>gliders verses light gliders.
>To get a true one design comp going we need 40:1 + performance

One wonders how the 505 works out in sailing...

I know Fossett didn't cross the Atlantic in record
time in a 505, but that doesn't convince me it is a worthless
class...it convinces me Fossett is rich...

Yes I'm aware the PW-5 is the current World Class glider.
I'm interested in what the next one will be...
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

[Mark James Boyd]

In article >,
Eric Greenwell > wrote:
>Ben Flewett wrote:
>
>> Taking that argument to it's logical conclusion we
>> should nominate a hang-glider as the new World Class
>> glider.
>>
>> The World Class was never supposed to be an entry level
>> glider - it was supposed to be a glider that anyone
>> and everyone could and WOULD want to compete in. The
>> idea was to have a GLIDER we could all compete in -
>> not a paper dart.
>
>Some revisionist history going on here: I was on SSA Board of Directors
>when the World Class was proposed, and these NEVER were the goals. NO
>ONE, at the time, espoused the idea that everyone, or even a large
>minority, would want to fly the World Class Glider.
>--
>-----
>change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
>Eric Greenwell
>Washington State
>USA
>

Perhaps the goals included a glider which, like the
505 dinghy, could be (relatively) cheaply acquired and
sailed competitively by sailors of all levels
(especially entry-level) as opposed to an America's Cup
racer...

--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

[tango4]

With the demise and DG's aquisition of LS perhaps Herr Weber could be
persuaded to donate the LS4 manufacturing rights to the IGC. He has already
stated that the LS4 will not be part of the ongoing stable at DG. When an
existing design was suggested at the time of the design competition there
was opposition because those already owning the type would be at some
advantage. This would now be offset by the fact that the owners of LS4 are
currently in an aircraft 'without a manufacturer', surely this affects
peoples decisions to buy used LS4's.

Could LS4's be produced to a world class price? I doubt it but they might
come close if produced in China and Eastern Europe. Perhaps supplied
unpainted or almost ready to fly. Instruments not fitted etc.

The one design idea is supported by almost everyone who comments on the WC
subject. The price does not actually appear to be the right selection tool!
Almost everyone wants an honest 1:40 cross country capable class. The LS4
could deliver that in a very capable manner.

Ian
( Not an LS4 owner - but I used to be and loved the ship! )

[Ben Flewett]

Yes, winter is getting to me.

Even if there was a $100k prize I still wouldn't starting
flying PW5s.

And I note, with amusement, that you are selling your
Hyundai.



At 21:18 10 March 2004, Going Fer It wrote:
>Ben - winter getting to you dear Boy......
>
>
>Of course we could make the World Class the competition
>that hotshots
>want to fly.
>
>...
>...
>...
>...
>
>Make the International winner $100,000 richer and I
>suspect you wont
>have any complaints from top guns wanting to earn a
>bit of extra coin
>:-)
>
>Who gives a toss about what they look like, topguns
>will then say its
>the $100K they will earn that will make them want to
>compete.
>
>BMW owners will always look down their noses at Hyundai
>owners........
>
>
>
>
>Ben Flewett wrote in message news:...
>> All valid points but....
>>
>> You get what you pay for and nobody wants to buy a
>> PW5 because they are overpriced rubbish. That is
>>why
>> the World Class concept has failed in it's current
>> format.
>>
>> I am a great fan of the World Class concept and will
>> happily sell my D2 and buy a World Class glider.
>>But
>> I am not spending $20,000 on a glider that goes no
>> better than the $4000 K6 I owned when I was an 18
>>year
>> old student - especially as it would mean I couldn't
>> fly against a large number of top pilots as I can
>>in
>> the D2.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At 20:54 09 March 2004, G.Kurek wrote:
>> >I'm not a big fan of a flying sperm cell either, but
>> >you can forget
>> >that Discus or LS4 will ever become a world class.
>> >One of the major
>> >requirement for that class is: can you produce NEW,
>> >laminate, low cost
>> >glider that will be widely accessible to everyone
>>>that
>> >wants to fly?
>> >NOT, can you buy a 30 year old LS3 at the similar
>>>price
>> >or if you can
>> >buy new Discus for $70,000, making gliding even less
>> >accessible for
>> >regular folk. Now take a wild guess dont you see any
>> >LS4, or Discus in
>> >majority, if not all American clubs? Is it because
>> >Pewee is better? Or
>> >is it because Pewee is cheaper to aquire and operate?
>> > If that wasn't
>> >the requirement Poles would probably propose Jantar.
>> >
>

[Ben Flewett]

Mark,

So am I! That's my whole point! I would like to see
the World Class concept take off but we need a better
glider as the PW5 is too many steps backwards (over
40 years) for most pilots to accept.

You talk about the Sparrowhawk or AC4 as candidates
for the next World class glider. I haven't flown either
of these (and never will). But why would you change
the PW5 for some other piece of rubbish when history
has shown that pilots will not accept such a regression
in performance? In fact, why bother making the change
at all - it's just a giant leap sideways.

The LS4 or Discus 1 would be ideal in my opinion.

Ben.


At 06:06 11 March 2004, Mark James Boyd wrote:
>Yes I'm aware the PW-5 is the current World Class glider.
>I'm interested in what the next one will be...
>--
>
>------------+
>Mark Boyd
>Avenal, California, USA
>

[Ben Flewett]

Larry,

I am not 'hurling vitriol' at the PW5 design. If people
want to fly PW5s then good for them - it's none of
my business.

I am simply pointing out the the World Class concept
has failed because we have selected the PW5. It would
be nice if thousands of budding glider pilots stepped
forward and started flying PW5s but it has not happened.
Fact.

I believe the World Class concept could be great for
our sport but we need to select a better glider that
pilots will WANT to fly on mass.

Ben.



At 01:42 11 March 2004, Larry Pardue wrote:
>
>'Ben Flewett' wrote in message
...
>> All valid points but....
>>
>> You get what you pay for and nobody wants to buy a
>> PW5 because they are overpriced rubbish. That is
>>why
>> the World Class concept has failed in it's current
>> format.
>>
>
>I am biased as a PW-5 owner but am at a complete loss
>to understand why so
>much vitriol is hurled at the design. Everyone makes
>their choices and pays
>their money and that is fine. It would just never
>occur to me to denigrate
>all the designs I did not choose and believe me they
>all have their
>drawbacks.
>
>I could say:
>
>I would never buy a motorglider. You pay all that
>money and get an
>unreliable smoky engine where the new prop bearings
>may seize and that
>sounds like a lawnmower and that can't fly with any
>kind of reasonably low
>wingloading. Also you don't deserve any records you
>set or contests you win
>because of the motor advantage.
>
>I wouldn't buy any of those modern, expensive German
>gliders. They are
>finished with junk that is easy to apply and smooth
>but that disintegrates
>in a few years requiring a refinishing that cost as
>much as a used glider.
>This is not to mention the spar shrinkage that may
>happen in just a year or
>so of southwest US heat. Then of course I will have
>to replace it in 5
>years to stay competitive.
>
>I wouldn't buy any cheap Eastern European open class
>glider. How would you
>ever find the help to do that heavy rigging and it
>is not competitive in any
>class except maybe Sports.
>
>I wouldn't buy any 2nd or 3rd generation back 15 meter
>or standard class
>ship. What classes are they competitive in now? Either
>none or maybe
>Sports Class if you are lucky. Yeh, I guess you can
>fly with your buddies
>if that interests you. Hard to get better if you are
>trying to fly with,
>instead of faster, than your buddies.
>
>I could say all that and parts of it would be true.
> Why would I want to?
>I'm not offended when people make other choices, I
>just enjoy the beauty and
>technology of the gliders they purchase.
>
>So there you have it. The 1-26 was and is a successful
>one-design class, in
>the US only. The low performance can be a disadvantage
>in some areas and it
>can not use a compact trailer. The PW-5 has the advantage
>of more modern
>materials and more performance and of being an international
>class. The big
>idea is it is a one-design class, not that it should
>compete with the LS-4.
>A side advantage is that it is inexpensive. What new
>glider is cheaper?
>Not fair to compare to used gliders. It is far from
>being the prettiest
>glider out there and I sure do appreciate the beauty
>of an ASW-28, but I can
>live with that for the advantages it does have. The
>class hasn't grown as
>fast as hoped, but it seems to be doing about as well
>as Open Class (or
>Standard last year) and I don't hear a lot of uproar
>again that class.
>
>My B1 model has a polyurethane finish that I expect
>to last for a long long
>time. It has automatic hookups. It seems as well
>built as any recent
>German glider I have seen. It does not have any indication
>of spar
>shrinkage, after some hot summers. It is extremely
>easy to handle on the
>ground and to rig and derig. It is and will remain,
>as long as the class
>endures, a cutting edge glider in the World Class and,
>at least for now,
>Sports Class, all without messing with the considerable
>hassles of water
>ballast. This means I don't have to replace it every
>few years.
>
>I am very happy with the glider and hope everyone else
>is happy with their
>choices.
>
>Larry Pardue 2I
>
>Shaking in my boots about competing against John Byrd
>on an EQUAL BASIS this
>summer.
>
>
>

[Andreas Maurer]

On 10 Mar 2004 22:00:15 -0800, (Mark James Boyd)
wrote:


>One wonders how the 505 works out in sailing...

Pretty simple:
If the wind is weak for half an hour, you don't have to get a trailer
and pick the 505 up to ferry it back to the coast.

Bye
Andreas

[cernauta]

"tango4" > wrote:

>With the demise and DG's aquisition of LS perhaps Herr Weber could be
>persuaded to donate the LS4 manufacturing rights to the IGC.

>Could LS4's be produced to a world class price? I doubt it but they might
>come close if produced in China and Eastern Europe. Perhaps supplied
>unpainted or almost ready to fly. Instruments not fitted etc.

That's a very interesting idea, if Herr Weber would be so generous we
would all have to be grateful to him for a long time.
And I think it would open a huge market for DG, in the sale of spare
parts. If the "World LS4 Class" is to be successful, a relevant
minority of pilots might prefer parts coming from a certified and
long-established manufacturer.

Aldo Cernezzi

[Eric Greenwell]

Mark James Boyd wrote:

> In article >,
> Eric Greenwell > wrote:
>
>>Ben Flewett wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Taking that argument to it's logical conclusion we
>>>should nominate a hang-glider as the new World Class
>>>glider.
>>>
>>>The World Class was never supposed to be an entry level
>>>glider - it was supposed to be a glider that anyone
>>>and everyone could and WOULD want to compete in. The
>>>idea was to have a GLIDER we could all compete in -
>>>not a paper dart.
>>
>>Some revisionist history going on here: I was on SSA Board of Directors
>>when the World Class was proposed, and these NEVER were the goals. NO
>>ONE, at the time, espoused the idea that everyone, or even a large
>>minority, would want to fly the World Class Glider.
>>--
>
> Perhaps the goals included a glider which, like the
> 505 dinghy, could be (relatively) cheaply acquired and
> sailed competitively by sailors of all levels
> (especially entry-level) as opposed to an America's Cup
> racer...

Here is the history page of the World Class Soaring Association. The
goals they outline there match what I remember when the idea was
proposed and moved to reality.

http://www.wcsa.org/history.htm
World Class Soaring Association
--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Eric Greenwell]

Ben Flewett wrote:

> Larry,
>
> I am not 'hurling vitriol' at the PW5 design. If people
> want to fly PW5s then good for them - it's none of
> my business.

But, apparently, calling it "rubbish" is.

--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[G.Kurek]

Going futher with you logic - How about making ETA the new world
class? Your Discus is a piece of crap comparing to ETA and who would
want to fly Discus when you can compete in better glider?

And making LS3 - an used glider that is long out of producion a world
class?
Its like signing the idea of world class to die right from the
begining. Look nobody forces you to sell you glider and step down, you
can compete in your own class, why do you want make your glider apply
to two classes at once?

I think I've pointed it out before, look at last years world class
nationals, a guy showed up and after missing 2 full days of
competition and while flying a borrowed glider that wasnt really in
the shape for competeing, took second place missing the first place by
millimeters. What does it mean about the pilots? I suppose you cant
complain about the glider anymore, everyone had the same...

Where I live around Chicagoland area I've seen the idea of Pw-5
working - almost every club has one and there is lots of private ones.
Like someone pointed out earlier world class was not was not designed
to be a massive success, dont like it? Stay out! But stop spitting at
it all the time, because there are people that I respect that fly it
and they much better glider pilots than you are. And YES it pretty
lame that in todays economy this is all you can get for around
25K(new), but untill they gonna start making gliders in China we have
to live with what we've got.

Regards

Gregg Kurek

[Mark James Boyd]

Eric Greenwell > wrote:
>
>Here is the history page of the World Class Soaring Association. The
>goals they outline there match what I remember when the idea was
>proposed and moved to reality.
>
>http://www.wcsa.org/history.htm
>World Class Soaring Association

An excellent reference. Thank you Eric!
I'm getting to the point, however,
where I'm really wondering if the objections to
this class are resolveable without changing
the requirements a little.

The requirement for fixed gear seems to be a biggie.
I just can't see how any of the objectors could ever be
satisfied with a fixed gear aircraft.

I suppose one could make a world class glider with
retract gear, and safety wire it down for competitions and
records. But the LS-4 performance with the gear down is, I suspect,
unacceptable to these folks.

The Sparrowhawk at 36:1 is the highest performance
fixed gear glider I'm aware of which has below 35 knot stall
speed. I personally think Windward should lower the redline to
115 KTS also (to allow it as a Sport aircraft). But is the
gear strong enough to handle repeated hamfisted punishment?
Is even 36:1 enough to satisfy naysayers?

I think the answer is no. I think those who don't want
to fly the PW-5 simply won't accept anything with fixed
gear, and/or find it absurd to fly a retract with the
gear safety wired down...
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

[Mark James Boyd]

Ben Flewett > wrote:
>Mark,
>
>So am I! That's my whole point! I would like to see
>the World Class concept take off but we need a better
>glider as the PW5 is too many steps backwards (over
>40 years) for most pilots to accept.
>
>The LS4 or Discus 1 would be ideal in my opinion.
>
>Ben.

I don't think you have any problem with the PW-5 or Sparrowhawk or
Russia. I think you want a retract gear glider. You don't like this
specification in the World Class. I think this is the crux of
the "steps backwards" you allude to...
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

[Owain Walters]

Gregg,

I dont want to appear petty in the face of your posting
but Ben said:

1)LS4 not LS3, and until very recently the LS4 was
in production

2)Ben owns a Discus 2a. I believe he said a Discus
1.

I dont want to cast doubt on the ability of the pilots
in the competition you mentioned but I interpret your
story that the competition was of a low class. Any
competition where anyone who misses two days and only
just misses out on winning is hardly testing the pilots
talents.

Unless he/she likes being a big fish in a small pond
he/she will move out of the World Class pretty quickly.


Again, Ben said that he feels, as I do, that most World
Level pilots are very interested in the idea of a single-glider
compeition but they are not willing to buy somethng
(however 'cheap') just to potter around at 1960s performance.

Owain

I would suggest looking at the World ratings before
you cast doubts on peoples ability.


At 16:36 11 March 2004, G.Kurek wrote:
>Going futher with you logic - How about making ETA
>the new world
>class? Your Discus is a piece of crap comparing to
>ETA and who would
>want to fly Discus when you can compete in better glider?
>
>And making LS3 - an used glider that is long out of
>producion a world
>class?
>Its like signing the idea of world class to die right
>from the
>begining. Look nobody forces you to sell you glider
>and step down, you
>can compete in your own class, why do you want make
>your glider apply
>to two classes at once?
>
>I think I've pointed it out before, look at last years
>world class
>nationals, a guy showed up and after missing 2 full
>days of
>competition and while flying a borrowed glider that
>wasnt really in
>the shape for competeing, took second place missing
>the first place by
>millimeters. What does it mean about the pilots? I
>suppose you cant
>complain about the glider anymore, everyone had the
>same...
>
>Where I live around Chicagoland area I've seen the
>idea of Pw-5
>working - almost every club has one and there is lots
>of private ones.
>Like someone pointed out earlier world class was not
>was not designed
>to be a massive success, dont like it? Stay out! But
>stop spitting at
>it all the time, because there are people that I respect
>that fly it
>and they much better glider pilots than you are. And
>YES it pretty
>lame that in todays economy this is all you can get
>for around
>25K(new), but untill they gonna start making gliders
>in China we have
>to live with what we've got.
>
>Regards
>
>Gregg Kurek
>

[Shaun McLaughlin]

It states on DG's website that the moulds for the LS4
have been released to Slovenia. So this would indicate
that the LS4 will be entering production again.

Discus 1's are also still in production in the CS variety
last time I heard.

Word.


At 17:06 11 March 2004, Owain Walters wrote:
>
>Gregg,
>
>I dont want to appear petty in the face of your posting
>but Ben said:
>
>1)LS4 not LS3, and until very recently the LS4 was
>in production
>
>2)Ben owns a Discus 2a. I believe he said a Discus
>1.
>
>I dont want to cast doubt on the ability of the pilots
>in the competition you mentioned but I interpret your
>story that the competition was of a low class. Any
>competition where anyone who misses two days and only
>just misses out on winning is hardly testing the pilots
>talents.
>
>Unless he/she likes being a big fish in a small pond
>he/she will move out of the World Class pretty quickly.
>
>
>Again, Ben said that he feels, as I do, that most World
>Level pilots are very interested in the idea of a single-glider
>compeition but they are not willing to buy somethng
>(however 'cheap') just to potter around at 1960s performance.
>
>Owain
>
>I would suggest looking at the World ratings before
>you cast doubts on peoples ability.
>
>
>At 16:36 11 March 2004, G.Kurek wrote:
>>Going futher with you logic - How about making ETA
>>the new world
>>class? Your Discus is a piece of crap comparing to
>>ETA and who would
>>want to fly Discus when you can compete in better glider?
>>
>>And making LS3 - an used glider that is long out of
>>producion a world
>>class?
>>Its like signing the idea of world class to die right
>>from the
>>begining. Look nobody forces you to sell you glider
>>and step down, you
>>can compete in your own class, why do you want make
>>your glider apply
>>to two classes at once?
>>
>>I think I've pointed it out before, look at last years
>>world class
>>nationals, a guy showed up and after missing 2 full
>>days of
>>competition and while flying a borrowed glider that
>>wasnt really in
>>the shape for competeing, took second place missing
>>the first place by
>>millimeters. What does it mean about the pilots? I
>>suppose you cant
>>complain about the glider anymore, everyone had the
>>same...
>>
>>Where I live around Chicagoland area I've seen the
>>idea of Pw-5
>>working - almost every club has one and there is lots
>>of private ones.
>>Like someone pointed out earlier world class was not
>>was not designed
>>to be a massive success, dont like it? Stay out! But
>>stop spitting at
>>it all the time, because there are people that I respect
>>that fly it
>>and they much better glider pilots than you are. And
>>YES it pretty
>>lame that in todays economy this is all you can get
>>for around
>>25K(new), but untill they gonna start making gliders
>>in China we have
>>to live with what we've got.
>>
>>Regards
>>
>>Gregg Kurek
>>
>
>
>
>

[Kevin Neave]

I think the answer is Yes

36:1 is Std Cirrus or Libelle performance & allows
an average to good pilot on an average to good (UK)
Summers day to fly 300k

The PW5, with not much more than K6e performance needs
either an excellent pilot, or an excellent day to fly
the same distance. (And the same pilot or the same
day would result in a 500 in the Cirrus or Libelle!)


>Is even 36:1 enough to satisfy naysayers?
>
>I think the answer is no. I think those who don't
>want
>to fly the PW-5 simply won't accept anything with fixed
>gear, and/or find it absurd to fly a retract with the
>gear safety wired down...
>--
>
>------------+
>Mark Boyd
>Avenal, California, USA
>

[G.Kurek]

Eastern Europe is already manufaturing Glasflugel CZ 304- have you
seen the finish of that? And have you seen the quality of the new SZD
products? Guess not...

[Mark James Boyd]

In article >,
Andreas Maurer > wrote:
>On 10 Mar 2004 22:00:15 -0800, (Mark James Boyd)
>wrote:
>
>
>>One wonders how the 505 works out in sailing...
>
>Pretty simple:
>If the wind is weak for half an hour, you don't have to get a trailer
>and pick the 505 up to ferry it back to the coast.
>
>Bye
>Andreas

LOL. Andreas, you always crack me up...

--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

[Ben Flewett]

This is becoming fun!

Yes, my Discus 2 is a piece of crap compared to an
ETA - accepted. Incidentally, I take no exception
to you saying that.

But there are plenty of people prepared to fly Discus
2s (and LS8s/ASW28s) but not many prepared to fly PW5s.
I am not knocking the glider - just it's use as the
World Class Glider.

Secondly, who said anything about an LS3? And the
LS4 will be back in production soon.

I own a Discus 2, not a Discus 1. So, I am not trying
to make my glider apply to two classes at once. The
Discus 2 would be a bad choice as it is too expensive.

Your story about the guy showing up two days late and
nearly winning the class doesn't not help your argument
- in fact, it helps mine. It clearly demonstates a
lack of competitiveness within the class. I have never
seen anyone show up two days late for a standard class
comp and nearly win.

You are entitled to your opinion that the PW5 is a
good world class glider. I am equally entitled to
my opinion that the PW5 has killed a class that could
be great for gliding. I am not going to stop saying
this as I believe it to be the truth.



Ben.

At 16:36 11 March 2004, G.Kurek wrote:
>Going futher with you logic - How about making ETA
>the new world
>class? Your Discus is a piece of crap comparing to
>ETA and who would
>want to fly Discus when you can compete in better glider?
>
>And making LS3 - an used glider that is long out of
>producion a world
>class?
>Its like signing the idea of world class to die right
>from the
>begining. Look nobody forces you to sell you glider
>and step down, you
>can compete in your own class, why do you want make
>your glider apply
>to two classes at once?
>
>I think I've pointed it out before, look at last years
>world class
>nationals, a guy showed up and after missing 2 full
>days of
>competition and while flying a borrowed glider that
>wasnt really in
>the shape for competeing, took second place missing
>the first place by
>millimeters. What does it mean about the pilots? I
>suppose you cant
>complain about the glider anymore, everyone had the
>same...
>
>Where I live around Chicagoland area I've seen the
>idea of Pw-5
>working - almost every club has one and there is lots
>of private ones.
>Like someone pointed out earlier world class was not
>was not designed
>to be a massive success, dont like it? Stay out! But
>stop spitting at
>it all the time, because there are people that I respect
>that fly it
>and they much better glider pilots than you are. And
>YES it pretty
>lame that in todays economy this is all you can get
>for around
>25K(new), but untill they gonna start making gliders
>in China we have
>to live with what we've got.
>
>Regards
>
>Gregg Kurek
>

[Marcel Duenner]

> Some revisionist history going on here: I was on SSA Board of Directors
> when the World Class was proposed, and these NEVER were the goals. NO
> ONE, at the time, espoused the idea that everyone, or even a large
> minority, would want to fly the World Class Glider.

Now that really makes sense!!!!
Invent a class and a glider no-one really wants to fly in/with!

And you actually succeeded. Congratulations.

Finally I understand what goes on at the IGC meetings and in the
various sub-comissions: they actually try to do things nobody wants
and see if they can get it through the plenary voting. The Toilet
Class (WC) is not the only such thing. Many rules and task definitions
seem to have come in to being just like that.

[Eric Greenwell]

Ben Flewett wrote:

> Mark,
>
> So am I! That's my whole point! I would like to see
> the World Class concept take off but we need a better
> glider as the PW5 is too many steps backwards (over
> 40 years) for most pilots to accept.
>
> You talk about the Sparrowhawk or AC4 as candidates
> for the next World class glider. I haven't flown either
> of these (and never will). But why would you change
> the PW5 for some other piece of rubbish when history
> has shown that pilots will not accept such a regression
> in performance? In fact, why bother making the change
> at all - it's just a giant leap sideways.
>
> The LS4 or Discus 1 would be ideal in my opinion.

A lot of the excitement over having the LS4 as the World Class glider
seems to revolve around the idea it would cost about as much as a PW5
and have the build quality of the LS4. I think that is a hopelessly
naive idea, based on these facts:

$35,000 PW5, IN THE USA, with standard instruments, radio, and trailer

$43,000 304C (standard class), IN EUROPE, no radio or trailer
$13,000 trailer, shipping, radio
-------
$56,000 in the USA

Basically, the 304C is an LS4. Now, maybe there are pilots that think
it's still the better value, even at $21,000 more, but it's not a cheap
glider. If a goal of the World Class is low cost gliders, pilots will
have to accept it must be a smaller, lighter glider that won't glisten
like a polished mirror. Size, weight, and finish do matter when you are
manufacturing something.

I hope someone with glider manufacturing experience will tell us why I
am right/wrong about this.

--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Bob Kuykendall]

Earlier, "tango4" > wrote:

> With the demise and DG's aquisition of LS...

I don't understand. Their latest newsletter says that the deal is on,
and that new LS8 will be available soon. Did I miss something?

> Could LS4's be produced to a world
> class price?

Sure. And they'd likely have world-class aging issues. In my
experience, most of the things that can be done to make gliders
cheaper to manufacture have a definite impact on what they look like
in ten years.

> Perhaps supplied unpainted or almost ready
> to fly. Instruments not fitted etc.

Sounds like an HP-24 kit to me. :)

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com

[Liam Finley]

>
> Shaking in my boots about competing against John Byrd on an EQUAL BASIS this
> summer.

Judging by recent levels of World Class participation, you may even
get to compete against him one-on-one!

[Denis]

Marcel Duenner wrote:

> I reckon it will be more like 52 + 54 + about 10.
> At least this class combination won't ever have the problem of
> exceeding the 120 pilots per event limit.

....which don't exist any longer!


--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

[Andreas Maurer]

On 11 Mar 2004 08:59:39 -0800, (Mark James Boyd)
wrote:

>I don't think you have any problem with the PW-5 or Sparrowhawk or
>Russia. I think you want a retract gear glider. You don't like this
>specification in the World Class. I think this is the crux of
>the "steps backwards" you allude to...

The problem is the performance.
In Germany nearly any student pilot with 50 hrs is flying a 1:40 plus
ship... and judging from my student pilots they simply have no fun
flying a far inferior glider once they tasted DG-300 or LS-4
performance.


Bye
Andreas

[Kirk Stant]

Why pick the LS4? Not that the 4 isn't a wonderful ship, but the LS8
is newer, better performance, and would probably not cost much more to
build (isn't cost to build more a matter of materials and size?). And
since there are already a lot of LS8s out there, you have an immediate
"World Class" base of gliders to race.

Build even more LS8s, and cost should go down more (but probably not
much).

If the idea is to have identical ships to fly, that might work. If
the idea is to have low performance inexpensive identical ships to
fly, it obviously won't.

So why not try an LS8 "worlds cup" contest, to see if the idea floats?

Kirk

[Liam Finley]

Eric Greenwell > wrote in message >...
> A lot of the excitement over having the LS4 as the World Class glider
> seems to revolve around the idea it would cost about as much as a PW5
> and have the build quality of the LS4. I think that is a hopelessly
> naive idea, based on these facts:
>
> $35,000 PW5, IN THE USA, with standard instruments, radio, and trailer
>
> $43,000 304C (standard class), IN EUROPE, no radio or trailer
> $13,000 trailer, shipping, radio
> -------
> $56,000 in the USA
>

Compared to, say $80K for a new D2 or ASW28 or LS8. It would probably
still attract significant participation were it a real competetive
racing class, as opposed to a circus sideshow.

[tango4]

"Kirk Stant" > wrote in message
om...
> Why pick the LS4?

For a whole bunch of reasons. Because the LS8 is still in production. If you
pick an aircraft still in production you have to make the choice open to
everyone from HP through to PZL

Ian

[Janos Bauer]

I was involved in sailplane coat replacement and I think it's a serious
part of the whole production cost (it took several months for us!!).
Recently I saw gliders painted with the usual car finishing technology
and I think the quality isn't far from what we achieved with the long
sanding and polishing work. How does it effect the real performance and
production cost?

/Janos


Bob Kuykendall wrote:

> > Perhaps supplied unpainted or almost ready
> > to fly. Instruments not fitted etc.
>
> Sounds like an HP-24 kit to me. :)
>
> Thanks, and best regards to all
>
> Bob K.
> http://www.hpaircraft.com

[Shaun McLaughlin]

>If a goal of the World Class is low cost gliders

I thought that this was the goal of the club class.

So if the cost is the deciding factor, fly club class.

A 304c may cost more than a PW5- but the all round
performance is better. You get what you pay for at
the end of the day.

For the yanks, your 'bang per buck' in the states,
ready to go.

PW5- 33:1= $1060 per l/d point

304c- 42.7:1= $1311 per l/d point

I know which I'd rather pay. Also, think of the resale
value- which is going to hold its value better? give
10 years of use/depreciation and I bet they are even
closer in L/D per $.

If someone was on a budget and wanted PW5 performance,
why not just go buy a K6?

Lets just send all the PW5's to the states. Or a bonfire.


At 18:54 11 March 2004, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>Ben Flewett wrote:
>
>> Mark,
>>
>> So am I! That's my whole point! I would like to
>>see
>> the World Class concept take off but we need a better
>> glider as the PW5 is too many steps backwards (over
>> 40 years) for most pilots to accept.
>>
>> You talk about the Sparrowhawk or AC4 as candidates
>> for the next World class glider. I haven't flown
>>either
>> of these (and never will). But why would you change
>> the PW5 for some other piece of rubbish when history
>> has shown that pilots will not accept such a regression
>> in performance? In fact, why bother making the change
>> at all - it's just a giant leap sideways.
>>
>> The LS4 or Discus 1 would be ideal in my opinion.
>
>A lot of the excitement over having the LS4 as the
>World Class glider
>seems to revolve around the idea it would cost about
>as much as a PW5
>and have the build quality of the LS4. I think that
>is a hopelessly
>naive idea, based on these facts:
>
>$35,000 PW5, IN THE USA, with standard instruments,
>radio, and trailer
>
>$43,000 304C (standard class), IN EUROPE, no radio
>or trailer
>$13,000 trailer, shipping, radio
>-------
>$56,000 in the USA
>
>Basically, the 304C is an LS4. Now, maybe there are
>pilots that think
>it's still the better value, even at $21,000 more,
>but it's not a cheap
>glider. If a goal of the World Class is low cost gliders,
>pilots will
>have to accept it must be a smaller, lighter glider
>that won't glisten
>like a polished mirror. Size, weight, and finish do
>matter when you are
>manufacturing something.
>
>I hope someone with glider manufacturing experience
>will tell us why I
>am right/wrong about this.
>
>--
>-----
>change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly
>
>Eric Greenwell
>Washington State
>USA
>
>

[Robert Ehrlich]

Ben Flewett wrote:
> ...
> Even if there was a $100k prize I still wouldn't starting
> flying PW5s.
> ...

Come on, if you were the only entrant for that prize,
wouldn't that be a nice and easy way to finance a new
modern high performance glider :-)

[Liam Finley]

Shaun McLaughlin > wrote in message >...
> Lets just send all the PW5's to the states. Or a bonfire.
>

God no, what did we do to deserve that? Send them back to Poland.

[Denis]

Eric Greenwell wrote:

> If a goal of the World Class is low cost gliders, pilots will
> have to accept it must be a smaller, lighter glider that won't glisten
> like a polished mirror.

You're right. But the problem is that most pilots are *not* willing to
accept that ! At least at world level. That's all the problem...

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

[Eric Greenwell]

Denis wrote:
> Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
>> If a goal of the World Class is low cost gliders, pilots will have to
>> accept it must be a smaller, lighter glider that won't glisten like a
>> polished mirror.
>
>
> You're right. But the problem is that most pilots are *not* willing to
> accept that ! At least at world level. That's all the problem...

Do you think the people complaining about the PW5 have the talent and
drive to become world level pilots, and the only thing holding them back
is the lack of a cheap competitive glider? I have the feeling most of
these pilots are more interested in a cheap high performance glider, and
not high-level competition.

My experience with world level competion pilots makes me think they will
fly _anything_ that lets them compete, though most prefer to fly the
high performance gliders.

--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[OscarCVox]

Alternative to the the world class - the club class of course. The UK nationals
this year have at least 3 ex world champions competing. They are over
subscribed with a large waiting list. What other class, including the world
class, can you compete in at the highest level for so little. A typical
competative glider such as a 201 Libelle, ASW19 or DG 101can be bought for 12k
to 15k UKP complete with chute, instruments etc
The same level of interest is evident in all parts of the world except the USA

[Denis]

Eric Greenwell wrote:

> Do you think the people complaining about the PW5 have the talent and
> drive to become world level pilots, and the only thing holding them back
> is the lack of a cheap competitive glider? I have the feeling most of
> these pilots are more interested in a cheap high performance glider, and
> not high-level competition.
>
> My experience with world level competion pilots makes me think they will
> fly _anything_ that lets them compete, though most prefer to fly the
> high performance gliders.

In many countries (including France) you just cannot win a place for
world class worlds flying a PW5, because there is no national
championships (I think there are only 3 PW5 in France)!

In french team the 2 pilots who went to world class WGC had to select in
standard class or 15m nationals, they were happy to go there rather than
having no place in any WGC but surely were somewhat frustrated not to go
to a "true" WGC...

I don't say that the WC concept is not good, but perhaps the PW5 was not
the better choice for that...

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

[Ian Johnston]

On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 10:55:52 UTC, Ben Flewett
> wrote:

: I am simply pointing out the the World Class concept
: has failed because we have selected the PW5.

I don't think has much to do with the PW5. I think the whole idea was
bound to fail because there are too many cheap, second hand gliders
with good performance out there. To succeed as a low-cost competition
glider, any design is going to have to undercut fifteen year old
Discii, ASW20's, Pegases, Libelles and even (shudder) Astirs. It's
just not going to happen.

Competition is no good as a driver, either. Only a tiby, tiny
proportion of glider pilots are interested in competing. Mind you,
running the world championships for a budget class glider in the
country which (although beautiful and full of friendly people)
probably represents the highest aggregate travel costs for
participants of anywhere in the world is an, um, intriguing idea.

Ian
--

[Robert Ehrlich]

Denis wrote:
> ...
> I think there are only 3 PW5 in France)!
> ...

According to Pascal BRUGIER (http://w3.teaser.fr/~pbrugier/index.htm)
5 of them are registred : F-CICA to F-CICE.