Edelweiss - Spin recovery procedures

[Uri Saovray]

After hearing some hair-raising storied of difficult spin recovery on
the Siren C30S Edelweiss, I would like to ask this forum:
Does anyone have the official (or otherwise) procedure for exiting a
spin in this aircraft.
Just a hint: with the V tail and mixer, full rudder with stick forward
is not an option.
Best regards,
Uri Savoray
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[JJ Sinclair]

Hi Uri,
I believe the generally accepted spin recovery is to put the stick forward (not
full forward) and apply opposite rudder.

BTW, you may run into trouble in slipping a V-tail. I remember the accident
report on an Austria that came across the fence in a full slip. One side of the
V-tail, stalled, which reduced the down load on the tail AND she pitched right
into the ground.
Bummer,


JJ Sinclair

[Finbar]

> Does anyone have the official (or otherwise) procedure for exiting a
> spin in this aircraft.
> Just a hint: with the V tail and mixer, full rudder with stick forward
> is not an option.

I know nothing about this specific aircraft, but I recently came
across a note on spin recovery technique that was a little different
to what I've read elsewhere: (can be found in
http://www.seqair.com/FlightTest/FlightTestGuide/FlightTestGuide.pdf)

"Release the stick, engine cut to idle, and push full rudder with
whichever foot is getting most resistance from the rudder pedal. This
will be opposite rudder, even if you are in an inverted spin. When
you let go of the stick, it will go of its own accord to the correct
position: back and in-spin for a normal erect spin.

This method has been promoted by aerobatic instructor Gene Beggs, to
the point that everyone calls it the 'Beggs method.' With the
exception of a few aircraft, the Beggs method has been proven to be
the safest and best method for recovering from unintentional spins of
all types: erect, inverted, and flat."

(As you can see, the reference is for powered aircraft, which of
course have much shorter wings.)

What's striking to me is that this method (and another method, the
Muller method) assume that until the spin stops the stick should be
held BACK. What I've seen before was
opposite-rudder-then-stick-forward, but this method clearly calls for
opposite-rudder-with-stick-back.

Apparently you don't need to be able to apply opposite rudder and down
elevator: full opposite rudder, and whatever stick back you can get
seems to be what they recommend. (Presumably the stick is eased
forward during the diving exit from the spin to limit g in the
pullout.)

I'd love to hear comments on this from more practiced spin-ers!

[Wallace Berry]

In article >,
(Finbar) wrote:

>
>
> What's striking to me is that this method (and another method, the
> Muller method) assume that until the spin stops the stick should be
> held BACK. What I've seen before was
> opposite-rudder-then-stick-forward, but this method clearly calls for
> opposite-rudder-with-stick-back.
>
> Apparently you don't need to be able to apply opposite rudder and down
> elevator: full opposite rudder, and whatever stick back you can get
> seems to be what they recommend. (Presumably the stick is eased
> forward during the diving exit from the spin to limit g in the
> pullout.)
>
> I'd love to hear comments on this from more practiced spin-ers!

Maybe it's me, but I think someone has misunderstood something here. Are
you sure the method is not referring to inverted spins only?

I have spun almost every aircraft I have flown, glider or powered. I
haven't tried too many recoveries with the stick back. All the 1-26's I
have flown would respond to opposite rudder even with the stick full
back. However, unless the stick is moved forward soon after rotation
stops, you might find yourself immediately in a spin again.

Both my 301 Libelles required some stick forward to regain rudder
effectiveness.

[Finbar]

>
> Maybe it's me, but I think someone has misunderstood something here. Are
> you sure the method is not referring to inverted spins only?
>
> I have spun almost every aircraft I have flown, glider or powered. I
> haven't tried too many recoveries with the stick back. All the 1-26's I
> have flown would respond to opposite rudder even with the stick full
> back. However, unless the stick is moved forward soon after rotation
> stops, you might find yourself immediately in a spin again.
>
> Both my 301 Libelles required some stick forward to regain rudder
> effectiveness.

The document I'm referring to was written for test pilots, and I'm
reading between the lines that it's understood the stick would not be
held back once the rotation stopped. In fact, the method cited
suggests letting go of the stick, rather than holding it back.

There's more detail in that document, to the effect that if the stick
is moved forward while the aircraft is still rotating, it can
accelerate the spin and make matters worse. Also, on most power
aircraft the elevator blankets the rudder when held down: not an issue
for modern sailplanes.

Take a look at the reference yourself: it's a PDF, and the section on
spins starts on page 24.

What struck you is what struck me: no reference to moving the stick
forward at all, and if you let go, then as long as the aircraft is
spinning the stick will actually float back.

[Wallace Berry]

In article >,
(Finbar) wrote:

> >
>
> Take a look at the reference yourself: it's a PDF, and the section on
> spins starts on page 24.
>
> What struck you is what struck me: no reference to moving the stick
> forward at all, and if you let go, then as long as the aircraft is
> spinning the stick will actually float back.

I'll look it up. Always interested in learning something new.

Sometime soon, at altitude, I will try this spin recovery method (in
something other than my Libelle).

With my flying skills, letting go of the controls might cure a lot of
problems.

All the best,

Wallace

[Uri Saovray]

Thanks guys for the replies.
The advice I received is obviously good, but I would love to have an
official or at least tested (on an edelweiss) answer, as I would not
like to experiment with this myself.
BTW, the Edelweiss in question completed it's test flight on Friday,
after seven years being hung up in the hangar. This makes (again) two
flying C30S's in Israel.
Best regards,
Uri

(Finbar) wrote in message >...
> > Does anyone have the official (or otherwise) procedure for exiting a
> > spin in this aircraft.
> > Just a hint: with the V tail and mixer, full rudder with stick forward
> > is not an option.
>
> I know nothing about this specific aircraft, but I recently came
> across a note on spin recovery technique that was a little different
> to what I've read elsewhere: (can be found in
> http://www.seqair.com/FlightTest/FlightTestGuide/FlightTestGuide.pdf)
>
> "Release the stick, engine cut to idle, and push full rudder with
> whichever foot is getting most resistance from the rudder pedal. This
> will be opposite rudder, even if you are in an inverted spin. When
> you let go of the stick, it will go of its own accord to the correct
> position: back and in-spin for a normal erect spin.
>
> This method has been promoted by aerobatic instructor Gene Beggs, to
> the point that everyone calls it the 'Beggs method.' With the
> exception of a few aircraft, the Beggs method has been proven to be
> the safest and best method for recovering from unintentional spins of
> all types: erect, inverted, and flat."
>
> (As you can see, the reference is for powered aircraft, which of
> course have much shorter wings.)
>
> What's striking to me is that this method (and another method, the
> Muller method) assume that until the spin stops the stick should be
> held BACK. What I've seen before was
> opposite-rudder-then-stick-forward, but this method clearly calls for
> opposite-rudder-with-stick-back.
>
> Apparently you don't need to be able to apply opposite rudder and down
> elevator: full opposite rudder, and whatever stick back you can get
> seems to be what they recommend. (Presumably the stick is eased
> forward during the diving exit from the spin to limit g in the
> pullout.)
>
> I'd love to hear comments on this from more practiced spin-ers!

[Denis]

Uri Saovray wrote:

> Thanks guys for the replies.
> The advice I received is obviously good, but I would love to have an
> official or at least tested (on an edelweiss) answer, as I would not
> like to experiment with this myself.

Hi Uri,

Try on http://www.planeur.net, as C30 is (was ?) common in France

I'd guess the procedure is full opposite rudder without any back or
forward rudder (which would prevent applying full rudder on most V-tailers)

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?