Flap performance

[Just Me[_2_]]

I'm considering purchasing a Ventus B. I'm aware of the "stability" issues, although some the extent of the stability issue seems to vary from plane to plane and pilot to pilot. I've talked to some people who say its not a big deal, and others who say its problematic. It's hard for me to know what to expect.

However, I was discussing flaps with a flight instructor and a question came up: How does a Ventus in neutral flaps compare to a Discus (I'm aware of the handling difference)? If you are in competition, flying a flapped ships, against other flapped ships, you better be an expert with the flaps. But if you are doing cross country work, are flaps essentially just an asset that is optionally available to allow you to slow down in a thermal or speed up in cruise.

He asserted that the Discus wing was considerably more advanced than the Ventus wing, and that you had to effectively use the flaps or you were actually better off (performance wise) with the Discus -- ie if you aren't flying a lot, you should stay away from flaps.

Can anyone compare the performance of a Discus to a Ventus, or better yet, does anyone have polars for a Discus and a Ventus (as a function of flap setting)?

FWIW, I have about 200 hours, and have flown flapped ships, including a 301 Libelle and a Janus -- as well as a wide variety of other non-flapped ships.

[Tango Eight]

Fast, unstable, edgy sailplane plus 200 hr pilot can eventually work out. Once upon a time I bought an HP-18 with 160 hrs. Eventually, it worked out.. It took a while.

There are better paths.

Buy a Discus (or LS-4, or DG-300...) and master it soon, start going places..

Buy a Ventus, spend the next couple of seasons wrestling with too much airplane.

Paper polar is 5% of performance. Pilot is 95.

Evan Ludeman / T8




On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 2:59:05 AM UTC-4, Just Me wrote:
> I'm considering purchasing a Ventus B. I'm aware of the "stability" issues, although some the extent of the stability issue seems to vary from plane to plane and pilot to pilot. I've talked to some people who say its not a big deal, and others who say its problematic. It's hard for me to know what to expect.
>
> However, I was discussing flaps with a flight instructor and a question came up: How does a Ventus in neutral flaps compare to a Discus (I'm aware of the handling difference)? If you are in competition, flying a flapped ships, against other flapped ships, you better be an expert with the flaps. But if you are doing cross country work, are flaps essentially just an asset that is optionally available to allow you to slow down in a thermal or speed up in cruise.
>
> He asserted that the Discus wing was considerably more advanced than the Ventus wing, and that you had to effectively use the flaps or you were actually better off (performance wise) with the Discus -- ie if you aren't flying a lot, you should stay away from flaps.
>
> Can anyone compare the performance of a Discus to a Ventus, or better yet, does anyone have polars for a Discus and a Ventus (as a function of flap setting)?
>
> FWIW, I have about 200 hours, and have flown flapped ships, including a 301 Libelle and a Janus -- as well as a wide variety of other non-flapped ships.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 3:35:07 PM UTC+3, Tango Eight wrote:
> Fast, unstable, edgy sailplane plus 200 hr pilot can eventually work out. Once upon a time I bought an HP-18 with 160 hrs. Eventually, it worked out. It took a while.
>
> There are better paths.
>
> Buy a Discus (or LS-4, or DG-300...) and master it soon, start going places.
>
> Buy a Ventus, spend the next couple of seasons wrestling with too much airplane.
>
> Paper polar is 5% of performance. Pilot is 95.

Is a Ventus really so difficult if you're competent in a Janus?

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 8:45:53 AM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 3:35:07 PM UTC+3, Tango Eight wrote:
> > Fast, unstable, edgy sailplane plus 200 hr pilot can eventually work out. Once upon a time I bought an HP-18 with 160 hrs. Eventually, it worked out. It took a while.
> >
> > There are better paths.
> >
> > Buy a Discus (or LS-4, or DG-300...) and master it soon, start going places.
> >
> > Buy a Ventus, spend the next couple of seasons wrestling with too much airplane.
> >
> > Paper polar is 5% of performance. Pilot is 95.
>
> Is a Ventus really so difficult if you're competent in a Janus?

It probably will take a little longer to get used to the Ventus. I bought a B as my first sailplane with no experience with any single seat glass. That said it has become an old friend and the flaps lets you dial in to the day quicker and more effectively and is a fast glider. Also the spoilers / flap combination are very powerful and a great tool if you need to land in small fields.

Dennis

DC

[[email protected]]

Aft CG and winglets make the Ventus a wonderful airplane to fly. A good friend said "The Ventus likes to go fast" It excels and keeps up with the most mondern Sailplanes at 90+. I have 3000 hours in a Ventus b. I a upgrading to a newer 27, mainly for racing in 15M So mine is for sale 😂

[Tango Whisky]

Le mercredi 19 juillet 2017 14:35:07 UTC+2, Tango Eight a écritÂ*:
> Fast, unstable, edgy sailplane plus 200 hr pilot can eventually work out. Once upon a time I bought an HP-18 with 160 hrs. Eventually, it worked out. It took a while.
>
> There are better paths.
>
> Buy a Discus (or LS-4, or DG-300...) and master it soon, start going places.
>
> Buy a Ventus, spend the next couple of seasons wrestling with too much airplane.
>
> Paper polar is 5% of performance. Pilot is 95.
>
> Evan Ludeman / T8
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 2:59:05 AM UTC-4, Just Me wrote:
> > I'm considering purchasing a Ventus B. I'm aware of the "stability" issues, although some the extent of the stability issue seems to vary from plane to plane and pilot to pilot. I've talked to some people who say its not a big deal, and others who say its problematic. It's hard for me to know what to expect.
> >
> > However, I was discussing flaps with a flight instructor and a question came up: How does a Ventus in neutral flaps compare to a Discus (I'm aware of the handling difference)? If you are in competition, flying a flapped ships, against other flapped ships, you better be an expert with the flaps.. But if you are doing cross country work, are flaps essentially just an asset that is optionally available to allow you to slow down in a thermal or speed up in cruise.
> >
> > He asserted that the Discus wing was considerably more advanced than the Ventus wing, and that you had to effectively use the flaps or you were actually better off (performance wise) with the Discus -- ie if you aren't flying a lot, you should stay away from flaps.
> >
> > Can anyone compare the performance of a Discus to a Ventus, or better yet, does anyone have polars for a Discus and a Ventus (as a function of flap setting)?
> >
> > FWIW, I have about 200 hours, and have flown flapped ships, including a 301 Libelle and a Janus -- as well as a wide variety of other non-flapped ships.

Well, if you are thinking about not using the flaps (which to me sounds fairly weired), why do you want to buy them in the firts place ?!

Bert TW

[Tango Eight]

On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 8:45:53 AM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:

> Is a Ventus really so difficult if you're competent in a Janus?

Was it really that hard to understand my point?

best,
Evan

[Bruce Hoult]

On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 5:03:26 PM UTC+3, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 8:45:53 AM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>
> > Is a Ventus really so difficult if you're competent in a Janus?
>
> Was it really that hard to understand my point?

Yes. The original poster says he's experienced in a Janus, also a flapped ship from SH, and quite probably older and less refined than a Ventus.

I've got 60 or 70 hours in an original (18m, flying tail, belly hook only) Janus and I'm very comfortable in it and with the flaps, to the point that I feel the lack of both low and high speed performance when I fly the 18m DG1000. I've never flown a Ventus or any other flapped single seater.

I'm finally, after 30 years flying gliders, in a position where I'm considering buying my own ship. I'm thinking about a Nimbus 2 or maybe Mini Nimbus, rather than Ventus, but I imagine the same considerations apply.

I've seen people flying ASW20s who try to ignore the flaps, and in particular seem afraid to use landing flaps and end up touching down 75% of the way down the runway and just generally ****ing things up. Perhaps some people would do the same in a Ventus. But not if they're competent in a flapped 2-seater, surely.

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 07:44:52 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote:

> I've seen people flying ASW20s who try to ignore the flaps, and in
> particular seem afraid to use landing flaps and end up touching down 75%
> of the way down the runway and just generally ****ing things up. Perhaps
> some people would do the same in a Ventus. But not if they're competent
> in a flapped 2-seater, surely.
>
That's a good point. When I converted to an ASW-20 at about 250 hours, a
lot of which was in the club's Pegase 90, it never occurred to me to not
use the flaps: after all, if you've got them, why pretend they're not
there?

In any case I think the whole art of flying a flapped glider is learning
to replace trim changes with flap movements. The best analogy I can think
of for learning to fly flaps that its like somebody who learned to drive
with an automatic gearbox converting to a car with a manual box: its not
that changing gears is hard with a stick shift, but always being in the
right gear takes time to learn. I think it took me about 30 hours before
'always in the right flap' became fairly instinctive. The other surprise
was the way the trim lever gathered dust, but maybe that's unique to the
'20?

BTW, there's a Mini-Nimbus in my club. Its owner tells me its basically a
Std Cirrus fuselage and tail with a Mosquito wing. He speaks highly of it
and does a lot of XC kilometerage, so its obviously a good combination.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Tango Whisky]

Le mercredi 19 juillet 2017 17:36:24 UTC+2, Martin Gregorie a écritÂ*:
The other surprise
> was the way the trim lever gathered dust, but maybe that's unique to the
> '20?

No, it isn't. I did adjust the trim on my Ventus cM 1200 hours ago, and never touched it again.

On the ASW20 I owned previously,I had to adapt the trim between cruise and thermal.

Bert "TW"

[JS]

Just:
Always good to have concern about making too big a move, but I believe with time in H301 and Janus, you'll be fine. The Ventus has better glide path control than either.
Get one with modern winglets, or add them. The Ventus A/B without winglets is where the bad reputation came from. While the factory ASW20 is easier to fly, it also improves with good winglets.
Jim

[[email protected]]

For some clarification. I wouldn't call myself "experienced" in a Janus. I've had several flights in it with an instructor. I found it to be an odd mix of surprisingly pleasant (I find it more fun to fly than any other two place ship I've flown, which have all been trainers) and demanding. I recall one point on a particular tow where I asked the instructor to take over. I've never done that before and never since. In hindsight I was probably doing fine but I felt like I was really struggling to keep behind the tug... but I had significantly less experience than I have now and it was only one flight.

My question really was: how does it fly in neutral flaps versus a Discus. I'm not suggesting that I would fly without the flaps. The question is, if I haven't mastered the ship, and the use of flaps am I actually going to be worse off than in a non-flapped ship. I'm looking at the amount that I fly and realistically assessing that I'll likely never master the ship the way a serious competition pilot would. If that's the case, would I actually be worse off in a flapped ship.

Thanks for the input.

On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 2:59:05 AM UTC-4, Just Me wrote:
> I'm considering purchasing a Ventus B. I'm aware of the "stability" issues, although some the extent of the stability issue seems to vary from plane to plane and pilot to pilot. I've talked to some people who say its not a big deal, and others who say its problematic. It's hard for me to know what to expect.
>
> However, I was discussing flaps with a flight instructor and a question came up: How does a Ventus in neutral flaps compare to a Discus (I'm aware of the handling difference)? If you are in competition, flying a flapped ships, against other flapped ships, you better be an expert with the flaps. But if you are doing cross country work, are flaps essentially just an asset that is optionally available to allow you to slow down in a thermal or speed up in cruise.
>
> He asserted that the Discus wing was considerably more advanced than the Ventus wing, and that you had to effectively use the flaps or you were actually better off (performance wise) with the Discus -- ie if you aren't flying a lot, you should stay away from flaps.
>
> Can anyone compare the performance of a Discus to a Ventus, or better yet, does anyone have polars for a Discus and a Ventus (as a function of flap setting)?
>
> FWIW, I have about 200 hours, and have flown flapped ships, including a 301 Libelle and a Janus -- as well as a wide variety of other non-flapped ships.

[Tango Eight]

On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 10:44:55 AM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 5:03:26 PM UTC+3, Tango Eight wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 8:45:53 AM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> >
> > > Is a Ventus really so difficult if you're competent in a Janus?
> >
> > Was it really that hard to understand my point?
>
> Yes. The original poster says he's experienced in a Janus, also a flapped ship from SH, and quite probably older and less refined than a Ventus.
>
> I've got 60 or 70 hours in an original (18m, flying tail, belly hook only) Janus and I'm very comfortable in it and with the flaps, to the point that I feel the lack of both low and high speed performance when I fly the 18m DG1000. I've never flown a Ventus or any other flapped single seater.
>
> I'm finally, after 30 years flying gliders, in a position where I'm considering buying my own ship. I'm thinking about a Nimbus 2 or maybe Mini Nimbus, rather than Ventus, but I imagine the same considerations apply.
>
> I've seen people flying ASW20s who try to ignore the flaps, and in particular seem afraid to use landing flaps and end up touching down 75% of the way down the runway and just generally ****ing things up. Perhaps some people would do the same in a Ventus. But not if they're competent in a flapped 2-seater, surely.

My cautions w.r.t. Ventus B aren't based on the fact that it has flaps. They are based on the fact that it is a "fast, unstable, edgy sailplane". It's a lot more work to fly (well) than any of its contemporaries, as even George Moffat has admitted!

Guys I know who have owned both tell me that the Ventus C is far and away more suitable for low time pilots than the Ventus A/B. More dihedral, better aileron control were the big things iirc. I was told it was a far more pleasant sailplane to fly. ASW-20 is also a better choice as far as flying qualities are concerned (just don't forget to hook up the elevator).

Still... I'll dig in on my original point: a 200 hour pilot will be comfortable and XC ready in a Discus more or less instantly. That's worth something. And that's why Disci command higher prices in the US market.

best,
Evan

[Tango Whisky]

Le mercredi 19 juillet 2017 18:10:25 UTC+2, a écritÂ*:

> My question really was: how does it fly in neutral flaps versus a Discus. I'm not suggesting that I would fly without the flaps. The question is, if I haven't mastered the ship, and the use of flaps am I actually going to be worse off than in a non-flapped ship. I'm looking at the amount that I fly and realistically assessing that I'll likely never master the ship the way a serious competition pilot would. If that's the case, would I actually be worse off in a flapped ship.
>

I have been flying as instructor in a group where we were doing ab-initio training on a Janus B. Students were told to leave the flaps alone and in neutral position until post-solo training, and that worked pretty well.

Bert "TW"

[Jim White[_3_]]

I once flew my 27 alongside a Discus2a over a 40k glide in a comp in still
air. Both at 55kts me in neutral flap. At the end of the glide I was about
200ft better off.

At 100kts, I think I would have him by significantly more!

[BobW]

>>>> Is a Ventus really so difficult if you're competent in a Janus?
>>>
>>> Was it really that hard to understand my point?
>>
>> Yes. The original poster says he's experienced in a Janus, also a flapped ship from SH, and quite probably older and less refined than a Ventus.
>>
>> I've got 60 or 70 hours in an original (18m, flying tail, belly hook only) Janus and I'm very comfortable in it and with the flaps, to the point that I feel the lack of both low and high speed performance when I fly the 18m DG1000. I've never flown a Ventus or any other flapped single seater.
>>
>> I'm finally, after 30 years flying gliders, in a position where I'm considering buying my own ship. I'm thinking about a Nimbus 2 or maybe Mini Nimbus, rather than Ventus, but I imagine the same considerations apply.
>>
>> I've seen people flying ASW20s who try to ignore the flaps, and in particular seem afraid to use landing flaps and end up touching down 75% of the way down the runway and just generally ****ing things up. Perhaps some people would do the same in a Ventus. But not if they're competent in a flapped 2-seater, surely.
>
> My cautions w.r.t. Ventus B aren't based on the fact that it has flaps. They are based on the fact that it is a "fast, unstable, edgy sailplane". It's a lot more work to fly (well) than any of its contemporaries, as even George Moffat has admitted!
>
> Guys I know who have owned both tell me that the Ventus C is far and away more suitable for low time pilots than the Ventus A/B. More dihedral, better aileron control were the big things iirc. I was told it was a far more pleasant sailplane to fly. ASW-20 is also a better choice as far as flying qualities are concerned (just don't forget to hook up the elevator).
>
> Still... I'll dig in on my original point: a 200 hour pilot will be comfortable and XC ready in a Discus more or less instantly. That's worth something. And that's why Disci command higher prices in the US market.
O.P. - there's a collection of "sensibly spot-on" feedback to your post(s)
throughout this thread, and I infer (from trying to read between the lines)
you've "got your head/mind screwed on sensibly" (which is worth a great
deal!). My .02-cents follows...

Cruise control (i.e. camber-changing-only) flaps should (IMHO) *never* be
thought of as "some mysterious Big Deal" by anyone considering making the step
to them...for all the reasons already touched upon by others. For anyone about
to sensibly enter XC-land (a wunnerful playground!), getting one's brain
around how best to think about and use camber-changing flaps can be
straightforwardly, and safely, and "more or less "book-learning completely,"
grasped well before one's first flight in a new-to-them single-seater.
Changing "book-learnin'-knollich" into genuinely internalized understanding is
(arguably) even more straightforward, once in the air and building PIC time.
Simply apply your book-knollich and test against reality...

For the record, I transitioned from "Schweizer stuff" into a 15-meter
landing-flap-equipped (i.e. no spoilers) 1st-generation glass bird at 125
total hours. Unlike T8's 200-hour experience into an HP-18, my (non-event)
transition was eased by my ship (a Concept 70) being a handling pussy cat
(think flap-equipped G-102), and my subsequent transition at ~196 hours into
an HP-14 (also landing-flapped-only) was similarly straightforwardly easy,
despite the '14 being (in some ways) an "edgier bird" than anything I'd
previously flown.

Since then, I've witnessed and engaged with beaucoup pilots who - for a host
of reasons - psyched themselves out come transition-to-flaps (of any sort)
time. A very few have subsequently busted their ships, and a larger lot scared
themselves into other hobbies. My accumulating sense is that the bulk of these
groups' cumulative problems have begun more from misconceptions in their
thinking than from outright under-developed stick skills (though, of course,
the two are closely coupled). YMMV...

Looking ahead, do consider sharing your transition experiences on RAS once
"adequately internalized." Until then, have fun along the way!!!

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

[Bruce Hoult]

On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 7:10:25 PM UTC+3, wrote:
> For some clarification. I wouldn't call myself "experienced" in a Janus. I've had several flights in it with an instructor. I found it to be an odd mix of surprisingly pleasant (I find it more fun to fly than any other two place ship I've flown, which have all been trainers) and demanding. I recall one point on a particular tow where I asked the instructor to take over. I've never done that before and never since.

Ahh .. I know what you mean. My first couple of flights in a Janus I was working so hard on tow that I completely lost situational awareness. How high are we? Where is the airport? No idea.

You don't want that to happen flying solo.

So I'd definitely recommend going back and getting a sign-off in that Janus and putting in 20 or 30 hours in it before attempting a Ventus.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 7:32:01 PM UTC+3, Tango Whisky wrote:
> Le mercredi 19 juillet 2017 18:10:25 UTC+2, a écritÂ*:
>
> > My question really was: how does it fly in neutral flaps versus a Discus. I'm not suggesting that I would fly without the flaps. The question is, if I haven't mastered the ship, and the use of flaps am I actually going to be worse off than in a non-flapped ship. I'm looking at the amount that I fly and realistically assessing that I'll likely never master the ship the way a serious competition pilot would. If that's the case, would I actually be worse off in a flapped ship.
> >
>
> I have been flying as instructor in a group where we were doing ab-initio training on a Janus B. Students were told to leave the flaps alone and in neutral position until post-solo training, and that worked pretty well.

I've taken a fair number of first timers (or power transition pilots) in a Janus A. I always put it into +6 and left it there for them. Calmed it down a lot and made it act about like a Grob.

[Just Me[_2_]]

I just want to be clear, I'm NOT scared of flaps. I have 60 hours in a flapped Libelle and probably 10 hours in a Janus A (all flying tail). The question is, given that I anticipate flying 20-40 hrs a year, am I overcomplicating my flying experience by selecting a Ventus (or any flapped ship) to the point that it will be either less enjoyable or that I'll actually get less performance than a comparable standard class ship (Discus) if I'm not on top of them. I'm not scared I'll kill myself. I am scared that I may not enjoy flying as much or not be as confident at being able to get into a "groove" on a thermal.

Part of the problem is there is no doubt in my mind that a Ventus is harder to fly than a Discus or, say an LS8, but some people have suggested its no big deal, others have said, you take your hand off the stick for two seconds and you're in a spiral dive... And all have come from people who actually have flown them. Its hard for me to know what to make of it. One Ventus owner who flew the same Janus A I flew said it was pretty comparable. He also said, always use the winglets.

[Matt Herron Jr.]

On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 10:58:19 AM UTC-7, Just Me wrote:
> I just want to be clear, I'm NOT scared of flaps. I have 60 hours in a flapped Libelle and probably 10 hours in a Janus A (all flying tail). The question is, given that I anticipate flying 20-40 hrs a year, am I overcomplicating my flying experience by selecting a Ventus (or any flapped ship) to the point that it will be either less enjoyable or that I'll actually get less performance than a comparable standard class ship (Discus) if I'm not on top of them. I'm not scared I'll kill myself. I am scared that I may not enjoy flying as much or not be as confident at being able to get into a "groove" on a thermal.
>
> Part of the problem is there is no doubt in my mind that a Ventus is harder to fly than a Discus or, say an LS8, but some people have suggested its no big deal, others have said, you take your hand off the stick for two seconds and you're in a spiral dive... And all have come from people who actually have flown them. Its hard for me to know what to make of it. One Ventus owner who flew the same Janus A I flew said it was pretty comparable. He also said, always use the winglets.

I have several hundred hours in a Ventus C with winglets. It flies very nicely, and likes to go fast. No bad habits, but I find that it is a little twitchy in pitch control, and I have a harder time maintaining constant speed in thermals. Last year I moved the CG back to about 80% aft and I felt like I had a new ship! Much easier to maintain airspeed in circling or straight flight. much less (or no) need to re-trim after changing flaps. I usually land and thermal in +2 rather than "L" flap setting, as it can get a little "wallowy" in "L". On takeoff, flaps are in -1 position, and I move them to +2 to leave the ground rather than use the stick. This also provides a better view of the tug on tow.

YMMV

Matt H.

[Tango Whisky]

Ventus B and Ventus C are different gliders.

Bert TW

[Brett]

[QUOTE='Just Me[_2_];951833']I'm considering purchasing a Ventus B. I'm aware of the "stability" issues, although some the extent of the stability issue seems to vary from plane to plane and pilot to pilot. I've talked to some people who say its not a big deal, and others who say its problematic. It's hard for me to know what to expect.

However, I was discussing flaps with a flight instructor and a question came up: How does a Ventus in neutral flaps compare to a Discus (I'm aware of the handling difference)? If you are in competition, flying a flapped ships, against other flapped ships, you better be an expert with the flaps. But if you are doing cross country work, are flaps essentially just an asset that is optionally available to allow you to slow down in a thermal or speed up in cruise.

He asserted that the Discus wing was considerably more advanced than the Ventus wing, and that you had to effectively use the flaps or you were actually better off (performance wise) with the Discus -- ie if you aren't flying a lot, you should stay away from flaps.

Can anyone compare the performance of a Discus to a Ventus, or better yet, does anyone have polars for a Discus and a Ventus (as a function of flap setting)?

Checkout the Dick Johnson flight tests at http://web.archive.org/web/20050206183811/http://www.ssa.org/Magazines/Johnson.asp (hope the link works)
You will see the Ventus is clearly superior at speeds over 80Kt.
And no - you don't have to be an expert to use flaps - if you can change gears in a manual car at about the right time as any idiot can, you will have no problem using flaps. If you don't want to use flaps you are far better off with a standard class glider with a wing profile optimized as such.
A Ventus B is a great glider but there are far more suitable flapped or unflapped gliders in this price range for you to be considering at your stage of flying.

[[email protected]]

I switched from a Libelle Club directly to an LS6a and I found it really benign and easy to fly (almost in unballasted condition) and not so flap setting sensitive (if you set neutral and leave it for the rest of the flight you have an LS8!).

Carlo


Il giorno mercoledì 19 luglio 2017 19:58:19 UTC+2, Just Me ha scritto:
> I just want to be clear, I'm NOT scared of flaps. I have 60 hours in a flapped Libelle and probably 10 hours in a Janus A (all flying tail). The question is, given that I anticipate flying 20-40 hrs a year, am I overcomplicating my flying experience by selecting a Ventus (or any flapped ship) to the point that it will be either less enjoyable or that I'll actually get less performance than a comparable standard class ship (Discus) if I'm not on top of them. I'm not scared I'll kill myself. I am scared that I may not enjoy flying as much or not be as confident at being able to get into a "groove" on a thermal.
>
> Part of the problem is there is no doubt in my mind that a Ventus is harder to fly than a Discus or, say an LS8, but some people have suggested its no big deal, others have said, you take your hand off the stick for two seconds and you're in a spiral dive... And all have come from people who actually have flown them. Its hard for me to know what to make of it. One Ventus owner who flew the same Janus A I flew said it was pretty comparable. He also said, always use the winglets.

[Ben Crook]

[cut previous]...

> I just want to be clear, I'm NOT scared of flaps. I have 60 >hours in a
flapped Libelle and probably 10 hours in a Janus >A (all flying tail). The
question is, given that I anticipate >flying 20-40 hrs a year, am I
overcomp licating my flying >experience by selecting a Ventus (or any
flapped ship) to >the point that it will be either less enjoyable or that
I'll >actually get less performance than a comparable standard >class ship
(Discus) if I'm not on top of them. I'm not scared >I'll kill myself. I am
scared that I may not enjoy flying as >much or not be as confident at
being able to get into >a "groove" on a thermal.

I'm into my fifth season in a Ventus bT, having previously flown an ASW19.
I fly about 20-40 hours a year and have about 300 gliding hours now.

Are you overcomplicating your flying experience going with a Ventus b vs
non flapped? Will flaps make it less fun or spoil your performance?

My two cents:

1. Yes initially your flying experience will be degraded. I guess all
pilots would fly a discus or LS8 better than a ventus b initially. But
10-15 hours of mixed thermalling and cruising should be enough to get a
hand/eye in on the ventus b.

2. The ventus b is a great glider. It loves going straight and fast loaded
up with water (-1 setting). With tips (16.6m) it climbs well (+2 setting)
alongside all other gliders (I race against a mixed fleet and it climbs as
well as the others). Neutral is used for long gentle glides (60kts with
water, 50kts without) to cross gaps, finish final glides. The flaps are
really not complex. But they add a lot in the pull-ups and speeding up. I
would not fly without them.

A recent flight in good conditions:

http://www.bgaladder.co.uk/dscore.asp?FlightID=66435&RC=X

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 2:59:05 AM UTC-4, Just Me wrote:
> I'm considering purchasing a Ventus B. I'm aware of the "stability" issues, although some the extent of the stability issue seems to vary from plane to plane and pilot to pilot. I've talked to some people who say its not a big deal, and others who say its problematic. It's hard for me to know what to expect.
>
> However, I was discussing flaps with a flight instructor and a question came up: How does a Ventus in neutral flaps compare to a Discus (I'm aware of the handling difference)? If you are in competition, flying a flapped ships, against other flapped ships, you better be an expert with the flaps. But if you are doing cross country work, are flaps essentially just an asset that is optionally available to allow you to slow down in a thermal or speed up in cruise.
>
> He asserted that the Discus wing was considerably more advanced than the Ventus wing, and that you had to effectively use the flaps or you were actually better off (performance wise) with the Discus -- ie if you aren't flying a lot, you should stay away from flaps.
>
> Can anyone compare the performance of a Discus to a Ventus, or better yet, does anyone have polars for a Discus and a Ventus (as a function of flap setting)?
>
> FWIW, I have about 200 hours, and have flown flapped ships, including a 301 Libelle and a Janus -- as well as a wide variety of other non-flapped ships.

Before I flew my Ventus I had some hours on three two seat gliders (Grob 103, ASK 21 and a Dual Discus. The discuss was the best experience because of similar cockpit layout. My first flight was in flap setting 0 and I used plus 2 flap for the landing. After that I was fine with the flaps and I do use flap setting 2 for thermalling a lot. It probably will take you 20-40hrs to dial in. My biggest issue was the very effective air brake flap system that will make this 40 plus glider into a 5/1 is seconds! Because its on the trailing edge the nose dramatically points down when you use L flap setting and full brake. The other issue is just learning how to optimize the glider in the climb and I would think there is a learning period for all gliders on that and maybe the Ventus is a little more touchy. After 40 hours I was pretty comfortable and now I am enjoying the performance at speed and the ability to land on a short field. Most of the trash on the Ventus comes from a couple RAS/soaring blog posts and If I remember correctly the guy was making the case for a discus over the Ventus.

If money is not the object, flaps are not a need and you have a nice conditioned discus to consider go with it. I wanted flaps and the best performance for my dollar and at that time and I bought my Ventus. One other thing.... I have winglets and my glider tracks pretty well as to that drama queen statement of letting go of the stick into a spiral dive I have not found any evidence of that. You do need to fly the glider and can't let go and have a seven course meal. That said I have fiddled with my flight computer, drink water, and taken photos with my iphone without any issues.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it...-:)

Dennis

DC

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, July 18, 2017 at 11:59:05 PM UTC-7, Just Me wrote:
> I'm considering purchasing a Ventus B. I'm aware of the "stability" issues, although some the extent of the stability issue seems to vary from plane to plane and pilot to pilot. I've talked to some people who say its not a big deal, and others who say its problematic. It's hard for me to know what to expect.
>
> However, I was discussing flaps with a flight instructor and a question came up: How does a Ventus in neutral flaps compare to a Discus (I'm aware of the handling difference)? If you are in competition, flying a flapped ships, against other flapped ships, you better be an expert with the flaps. But if you are doing cross country work, are flaps essentially just an asset that is optionally available to allow you to slow down in a thermal or speed up in cruise.
>
> He asserted that the Discus wing was considerably more advanced than the Ventus wing, and that you had to effectively use the flaps or you were actually better off (performance wise) with the Discus -- ie if you aren't flying a lot, you should stay away from flaps.
>
> Can anyone compare the performance of a Discus to a Ventus, or better yet, does anyone have polars for a Discus and a Ventus (as a function of flap setting)?
>
> FWIW, I have about 200 hours, and have flown flapped ships, including a 301 Libelle and a Janus -- as well as a wide variety of other non-flapped ships.

I think I can help with your question. I have 4 years in a Ventus B no winglets, got in it with about 1000 hours, much of that as a ride pilot. I've flown a Janus, Libelle 201, and owned a Kestrel 17 for a few years before the Ventus. I have not flown a Discus or 301, but I have a couple hundred hours in an LS-4.

The Janus and Kestrel are complete puppy dogs compared to the B no winglets.. I wouldn't use those gliders as any determining factor, other than whether you like using flaps or not. Whether you want flaps or you want a Ventus B are two very different questions. More important with the Ventus, do you have good glide path control on final? It has dive brakes and you don't want to pull them in at all on final when close to the ground. They are very effective though so it's easy to stay high and pull more and more in (if you have to, usually its easy for me to estimate correctly) towards touchdown. I love the glider on final, it's super stable and has a very wide glide angle range.

I love my Ventus because I cannot afford a V2, 27, etc. :) I'm hoping to get into a C model at some point... On a strong day with reasonably smooth thermals it is shockingly fast and a blast to fly. On a strong and turbulent day it is still fast, but can completely thrash me in about 4 hours so that my motivation to maximize the day is diminished considerably. Just flying the glider, stick and rudder, on those days takes a lot (too much) of your mental workload, even when it's going on in the background. You notice it after a few hours.
Other than that I love everything about the glider. Auto hookups, water tanks, I love the dive brakes/landing flaps (+2) on final, and the price is great because of the (somewhat) undeserved handling reputation.

Is there any way you can fly a Ventus B before buying? And fly it on a turbulent day.

WHERE are you going to fly it? In a place with strong lift/turbulence or gentle> If gentle I say go for it, if not then you have some things to consider. Ben mentions flying his a 50-60 kts during glides. I've never flown mine below 65 in a glide? I fly in the western US. In Oregon where the thermals are almost always smooth and less powerful, it is the perfect glider for me. In Nevada on a turbulent day, the glider can be alot of work. I heard people say that you can't take your hand off the stick and I couldn't believe that, but it's essentially true. It will wander in pitch so much that you have to have one hand at least steadying the stick.

With half water, about 1000 pounds auw. it wants to go 85+. That to me is a great glider. Now you get to decide... :)

[Dan Marotta]

Fill it to the gills with water and /_really_/ enjoy the ride!

On 7/20/2017 5:03 AM, wrote:
> I switched from a Libelle Club directly to an LS6a and I found it really benign and easy to fly (almost in unballasted condition) and not so flap setting sensitive (if you set neutral and leave it for the rest of the flight you have an LS8!).
>
> Carlo
>
>
> Il giorno mercoledì 19 luglio 2017 19:58:19 UTC+2, Just Me ha scritto:
>> I just want to be clear, I'm NOT scared of flaps. I have 60 hours in a flapped Libelle and probably 10 hours in a Janus A (all flying tail). The question is, given that I anticipate flying 20-40 hrs a year, am I overcomplicating my flying experience by selecting a Ventus (or any flapped ship) to the point that it will be either less enjoyable or that I'll actually get less performance than a comparable standard class ship (Discus) if I'm not on top of them. I'm not scared I'll kill myself. I am scared that I may not enjoy flying as much or not be as confident at being able to get into a "groove" on a thermal.
>>
>> Part of the problem is there is no doubt in my mind that a Ventus is harder to fly than a Discus or, say an LS8, but some people have suggested its no big deal, others have said, you take your hand off the stick for two seconds and you're in a spiral dive... And all have come from people who actually have flown them. Its hard for me to know what to make of it. One Ventus owner who flew the same Janus A I flew said it was pretty comparable. He also said, always use the winglets.

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

Forgot to get to my main point... As Tango Eight says, if you are going to use the glider to learn how to fly XC, then you might want to get something else first? Libelle, Kestrel, Jantar? I suspect you will become a better xc pilot faster with something easier to fly. OTOH, if you expect to keep the glider for a long time, are essentially flying for fun, and you aren't learning in the southwestern US, then maybe you get it now and build both skills, learning XC and learning the Ventus, at the same time. Ask your instructor(s) to be honest with you and give you an opinion of what is best for you? I'd be extremely hesitant to go against an instructor opinion, especially if they fly XC regularly. And finally, all of my comments refer to the Ventus B no winglets, winglets apparently make the glider fly much better. Maybe Cliff can weigh in on that, he has flown the same glider with both.