Winch Experts wanted

[Ulrich Neumann]

I am looking for a small group of professionals and folks with
practical experience in designing and building a glider launch winch.
My preference would be mechanical engineering types with power
transmission experience, Diesel engine/truck mechanics, Fabricators,
guys that know a thing or two about truck axles and maybe someone with
an insurance/legal background.

The purpose of putting this small team together is to come up with a
design for a safe, reliable and cost effective winch, which could be
built by a group of amateurs in the USA using commercially available
parts without a whole lot of modificatons.
There are no commercial ties to anything or anybody, nobody gets paid
and the design/ideas would be available for the asking.

So, who is up for the challenge?

Ulrich Neumann
Canfield, OH
USA

[Atacdad]

How about a "Monster Garage" episode to turn a Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins
engine into a glider launch winch.



"Ulrich Neumann" > wrote in message
om...
> I am looking for a small group of professionals and folks with
> practical experience in designing and building a glider launch winch.
> My preference would be mechanical engineering types with power
> transmission experience, Diesel engine/truck mechanics, Fabricators,
> guys that know a thing or two about truck axles and maybe someone with
> an insurance/legal background.
>
> The purpose of putting this small team together is to come up with a
> design for a safe, reliable and cost effective winch, which could be
> built by a group of amateurs in the USA using commercially available
> parts without a whole lot of modificatons.
> There are no commercial ties to anything or anybody, nobody gets paid
> and the design/ideas would be available for the asking.
>
> So, who is up for the challenge?
>
> Ulrich Neumann
> Canfield, OH
> USA

[superficial intelligence]

"Atacdad" > wrote in message
...
> How about a "Monster Garage" episode to turn a Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins
> engine into a glider launch winch.


they will probably want to add a rocket launcher or mortar onto it as well
to shoot down the launched glider to make the program sell better .

[Atacdad]

Couldn't be worse than the hot air ballon Tracker (or whatever it was)



"superficial intelligence" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Atacdad" > wrote in message
> ...
> > How about a "Monster Garage" episode to turn a Dodge 3/4 ton with
Cummins
> > engine into a glider launch winch.
>
>
> they will probably want to add a rocket launcher or mortar onto it as well
> to shoot down the launched glider to make the program sell better .
>
>

[mat Redsell]

I really think this idea has merit.... but should we also consider lowering
the wing loading so that the horsepower requirements are much less? I also
think that the future of soaring is rather bleak without winch alternatives.

[A P]

I also
> think that the future of soaring is rather bleak without winch
alternatives.

It's called Aerotow....... and what's wrong with winch? 1500 ft easy with a
decent field for under 1/3 the price of a 2000 ft tow..... ;-)

AP


"mat Redsell" > wrote in message
...
>
> I really think this idea has merit.... but should we also consider
lowering
> the wing loading so that the horsepower requirements are much less? I also
> think that the future of soaring is rather bleak without winch
alternatives.
>
>

[Ulrich Neumann]

"Atacdad" > wrote in message >...
> Couldn't be worse than the hot air ballon Tracker (or whatever it was)
>
>
>
> "superficial intelligence" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Atacdad" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > How about a "Monster Garage" episode to turn a Dodge 3/4 ton with
> Cummins
> > > engine into a glider launch winch.
> >
> >
> > they will probably want to add a rocket launcher or mortar onto it as well
> > to shoot down the launched glider to make the program sell better .
> >
> >

The time it would take to explain to these mental bottom-feeder what
the thing is supposed to do with the "what? Glider? No engine? =
Booooring, Dude!' would exceed the build time or my patience!

But seriously now, any takers?

Ulrich Neumann

[Ulrich Neumann]

"mat Redsell" > wrote in message >...
> I really think this idea has merit.... but should we also consider lowering
> the wing loading so that the horsepower requirements are much less? I also
> think that the future of soaring is rather bleak without winch alternatives.

Mat,

I don't think that the road-block for whole winch idea is horse-power.
Horse-Power is available in abundance at a reasonable cost - see Bill
Daniels' write-up on this subject. Even with a high HP winch, older,
smaller and lighter gliders can be launched. It is only when you have
a fully watered open ship or heavy double seat trainer on the other
end of the cable when you need the extra uhmpf!
I think the biggest problem to overcome is the mind-set that the winch
has to be built (cobbled together) in one weekend from parts supplied
exclusively from the local junk-yard. Lets apply some sound
engineering, craftsmenship and parts, that are commercially available
for years to come.

Ulrih Neumann

[Stefan]

Not exactly what you asked for, but take a look at

http://www.skylaunch.de/album/index.html

It's fun and it may give you some ideas.

Stefan

[mat Redsell]

My statement was very confusing... what I really meant was without the winch
I think that we will be in troubles down the road for affordable tows....

And in part I do think that we have taken a wrong road with high wing
loading. for example with the Monarch we are able to tow it aloft with 160
lbs of tension at a speed of about 15 mph with a wind down the runway of
about 10 mph. This requires a very small rope and small horsepower.

See the article I posted in the Marske Web site on power requirements for
launching developed by Jim Marske.

http://www.continuo.com/marske/
look under articles for : ultralight design parameters design parameters of
the ultralight glider

But whatever I do think that your idea of developing a winch is a godo idea.
-mat

"A P" > wrote in message
...
> I also
> > think that the future of soaring is rather bleak without winch
> alternatives.
>
> It's called Aerotow....... and what's wrong with winch? 1500 ft easy with
a
> decent field for under 1/3 the price of a 2000 ft tow..... ;-)
>
> AP
>
>
> "mat Redsell" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > I really think this idea has merit.... but should we also consider
> lowering
> > the wing loading so that the horsepower requirements are much less? I
also
> > think that the future of soaring is rather bleak without winch
> alternatives.
> >
> >
>
>

[Andreas Maurer]

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 20:42:21 GMT, "mat Redsell" >
wrote:

>And in part I do think that we have taken a wrong road with high wing
>loading. for example with the Monarch we are able to tow it aloft with 160
>lbs of tension at a speed of about 15 mph with a wind down the runway of
>about 10 mph. This requires a very small rope and small horsepower.

Nothing better than runing 125 kts between clouds with a 50 kg/m^2
wing loading in my ASW-27 after a $2 winch launch on my club's 280 hp
Diesel winch. <vbg>


Bye
Andreas

[Andreas Maurer]

On 18 Mar 2004 10:35:33 -0800, (Ulrich Neumann)
wrote:

>I think the biggest problem to overcome is the mind-set that the winch
>has to be built (cobbled together) in one weekend from parts supplied
>exclusively from the local junk-yard. Lets apply some sound
>engineering, craftsmenship and parts, that are commercially available
>for years to come.

Sounds like a vacation in Germany might be a good idea... many good
examples of more or less well-engineered winches available here.
Typically each club has its own design, and nearly all of them seem to
be working well enough.

Bye
Andreas

[John Giddy]

Ulrich,
See if you can find a contact at "The Soaring Centre", Husbands
Bosworth in UK.
Some years ago they built their own 4-drum winch. I saw it a few years
ago, and it was a most impressive machine.
Unfortunately I don't have any contact info for them, but they do have
a web site at: http://www.thesoaringcentre.co.uk/index.htm

Cheers, John G. (Australia)
"Ulrich Neumann" > wrote in message
om...
> "mat Redsell" > wrote in message
>...
> > I really think this idea has merit.... but should we also consider
lowering
> > the wing loading so that the horsepower requirements are much
less? I also
> > think that the future of soaring is rather bleak without winch
alternatives.
>
> Mat,
>
> I don't think that the road-block for whole winch idea is
horse-power.
> Horse-Power is available in abundance at a reasonable cost - see
Bill
> Daniels' write-up on this subject. Even with a high HP winch, older,
> smaller and lighter gliders can be launched. It is only when you
have
> a fully watered open ship or heavy double seat trainer on the other
> end of the cable when you need the extra uhmpf!
> I think the biggest problem to overcome is the mind-set that the
winch
> has to be built (cobbled together) in one weekend from parts
supplied
> exclusively from the local junk-yard. Lets apply some sound
> engineering, craftsmenship and parts, that are commercially
available
> for years to come.
>
> Ulrih Neumann

[Mark James Boyd]

mat Redsell > wrote:
>My statement was very confusing... what I really meant was without the winch
>I think that we will be in troubles down the road for affordable tows....
>
>And in part I do think that we have taken a wrong road with high wing
>loading. for example with the Monarch we are able to tow it aloft with 160
>lbs of tension at a speed of about 15 mph with a wind down the runway of
>about 10 mph. This requires a very small rope and small horsepower.
>
>http://www.continuo.com/marske/
>look under articles for : ultralight design parameters design parameters of
>the ultralight glider

I'd love to see a winch design that uses a 100hp or less engine,
can be easily bolted on the back of an old pickup, and has engine
and parts that are low maintenance and (especially engine) easy
to acquire (either locally or via shipping).

Alternately, how about a "spare tire" that is really a winch drum.
a stable sturdy "jack" and some way to route the cable
to ensure it winds up nice.

Might not work (thoughts of side loads tipping my car
over come to mind!), but it sure is fun to play with the
thuoght!
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

[Bill Daniels]

"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
news:405aa3e8$1@darkstar...

> I'd love to see a winch design that uses a 100hp or less engine,
> can be easily bolted on the back of an old pickup, and has engine
> and parts that are low maintenance and (especially engine) easy
> to acquire (either locally or via shipping).
>
> Alternately, how about a "spare tire" that is really a winch drum.
> a stable sturdy "jack" and some way to route the cable
> to ensure it winds up nice.
>
> Might not work (thoughts of side loads tipping my car
> over come to mind!), but it sure is fun to play with the
> thuoght!
> --
>
> ------------+
> Mark Boyd
> Avenal, California, USA

Mark, unfortunately, the physics of a winch launch says that it takes about
1 kWh or 3,600,000 Joules to launch a glider. The peak power demand places
yet another constraint on the minimum HP that must be available. Those
numbers point to a 400 to 500 HP engine to be able to provide launch service
to any glider in the existing fleet. Although the initial cost of a well
engineered winch is high (nearly as much as a tow plane) the long term costs
are only a few percent as much a tug.

The good news is that the total energy consumed for one launch (About 1
liter of diesel fuel equivalent) is tiny compared to any other launch method
except bungee launch. (Excluding, of course, the beer you have to provide
the bungee crew.)

A glider winch is a highly specialized piece of machinery that needs the
kind of engineering Ulrich is asking for. Please avoid the temptation to
cobble some junk together to make a barely workable winch. That sort of
thing has given winch launch a bad name in the USA.

A well run winch operation is very attractive to newcomers to the sport. It
shows a lot of ground activity that is visible to the onlookers and the
rides are a real thrill. Lets get winching!

Bill Daniels

[Kevin Neave]

Bill,

I think you need to revisit your numbers.

Here at Nympsfield (UK) we have a Supacat winch with
a 250 horse Diesel that easily provides enough power
for the biggest gliders on site (DG505, DuoDT, Nimbus3DT)
(And pretty scary in a Libelle if the winch driver
is *over enthusiastic*)

The previous engine was 180 HP, this was a bit marginal
for the Heavy Glass, but more than enough for any single
seat

(We have a 1000m field & regularly get 1500', even
nil wind)

:-)

KN

At 15:36 19 March 2004, Bill Daniels wrote:
>
>Mark, unfortunately, the physics of a winch launch
>says that it takes about
>1 kWh or 3,600,000 Joules to launch a glider. The
>peak power demand places
>yet another constraint on the minimum HP that must
>be available. Those
>numbers point to a 400 to 500 HP engine to be able
>to provide launch service
>to any glider in the existing fleet.

[Ulrich Neumann]

(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:<405aa3e8$1@darkstar>...
> mat Redsell > wrote:
> >My statement was very confusing... what I really meant was without the winch
> >I think that we will be in troubles down the road for affordable tows....
> >
> >And in part I do think that we have taken a wrong road with high wing
> >loading. for example with the Monarch we are able to tow it aloft with 160
> >lbs of tension at a speed of about 15 mph with a wind down the runway of
> >about 10 mph. This requires a very small rope and small horsepower.
> >
> >http://www.continuo.com/marske/
> >look under articles for : ultralight design parameters design parameters of
> >the ultralight glider
>
> I'd love to see a winch design that uses a 100hp or less engine,
> can be easily bolted on the back of an old pickup, and has engine
> and parts that are low maintenance and (especially engine) easy
> to acquire (either locally or via shipping).
>
> Alternately, how about a "spare tire" that is really a winch drum.
> a stable sturdy "jack" and some way to route the cable
> to ensure it winds up nice.
>
> Might not work (thoughts of side loads tipping my car
> over come to mind!), but it sure is fun to play with the
> thuoght!

Mark,

a 100HP or less winch? What are you trying to launch - kites or RC
gliders? The Europeans are replacing their winches powered
traditionally by Detroit's finest with big rig Diesels, because ...?
Lets get real here. As nice as it sounds to have your own personal
winch in the trunk, the reality looks more like you could haul your
car around with the winch.

But keep the ideas coming.

Ulrich Neumann

[Martin Gregorie]

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 08:24:24 -0700, "Bill Daniels"
> wrote:

>
>"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
>news:405aa3e8$1@darkstar...
>
>> I'd love to see a winch design that uses a 100hp or less engine,
>> can be easily bolted on the back of an old pickup, and has engine
>> and parts that are low maintenance and (especially engine) easy
>> to acquire (either locally or via shipping).
>>
>> Alternately, how about a "spare tire" that is really a winch drum.
>> a stable sturdy "jack" and some way to route the cable
>> to ensure it winds up nice.
>>
>> Might not work (thoughts of side loads tipping my car
>> over come to mind!), but it sure is fun to play with the
>> thuoght!
>> --
>>
>> ------------+
>> Mark Boyd
>> Avenal, California, USA
>
>Mark, unfortunately, the physics of a winch launch says that it takes about
>1 kWh or 3,600,000 Joules to launch a glider. The peak power demand places
>yet another constraint on the minimum HP that must be available. Those
>numbers point to a 400 to 500 HP engine to be able to provide launch service
>to any glider in the existing fleet. Although the initial cost of a well
>engineered winch is high (nearly as much as a tow plane) the long term costs
>are only a few percent as much a tug.
>
>The good news is that the total energy consumed for one launch (About 1
>liter of diesel fuel equivalent) is tiny compared to any other launch method
>except bungee launch. (Excluding, of course, the beer you have to provide
>the bungee crew.)
>
>A glider winch is a highly specialized piece of machinery that needs the
>kind of engineering Ulrich is asking for. Please avoid the temptation to
>cobble some junk together to make a barely workable winch. That sort of
>thing has given winch launch a bad name in the USA.
>
>A well run winch operation is very attractive to newcomers to the sport. It
>shows a lot of ground activity that is visible to the onlookers and the
>rides are a real thrill. Lets get winching!
>
>Bill Daniels

If you have a diesel driving through a fluid flywheel you don't need
that much power: we have a Supacat with a 245 hp Deutz V8 aircooled
industrial diesel and torque converter (no gearbox). This can launch
an ASH-25 or just about any Nimbus. With a 15 m glider, K-21 or Grob
you'd expect 1200-1400 ft on a 1000m run in calm conditions and over
2000 ft if its blowing a bit.

I'd agree with everything you've said about the specialised nature of
a glider winch, the heavy duty engineering and the costs.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

[Marc Ramsey]

Martin Gregorie wrote:
> If you have a diesel driving through a fluid flywheel you don't need
> that much power: we have a Supacat with a 245 hp Deutz V8 aircooled
> industrial diesel and torque converter (no gearbox). This can launch
> an ASH-25 or just about any Nimbus. With a 15 m glider, K-21 or Grob
> you'd expect 1200-1400 ft on a 1000m run in calm conditions and over
> 2000 ft if its blowing a bit.

I think the difference is that Bill is considering operating at much
higher density altitudes. In the western US, there are many glider
operations where summer density altitudes are in the 8000+ foot range.

Marc

[tango4]

You have to remember folks that these are American horsepower units. About
2:1 is a good ratio against proper European horses!

:-)

Ian

"Kevin Neave" > wrote in message
...
> Bill,
>
> I think you need to revisit your numbers.
>
> Here at Nympsfield (UK) we have a Supacat winch with
> a 250 horse Diesel that easily provides enough power
> for the biggest gliders on site (DG505, DuoDT, Nimbus3DT)
> (And pretty scary in a Libelle if the winch driver
> is *over enthusiastic*)
>
> The previous engine was 180 HP, this was a bit marginal
> for the Heavy Glass, but more than enough for any single
> seat
>
> (We have a 1000m field & regularly get 1500', even
> nil wind)
>
> :-)
>
> KN
>
> At 15:36 19 March 2004, Bill Daniels wrote:
> >
> >Mark, unfortunately, the physics of a winch launch
> >says that it takes about
> >1 kWh or 3,600,000 Joules to launch a glider. The
> >peak power demand places
> >yet another constraint on the minimum HP that must
> >be available. Those
> >numbers point to a 400 to 500 HP engine to be able
> >to provide launch service
> >to any glider in the existing fleet.
>
>
>

[Mark Zivley]

I think the difference isn't so much height gained, but back calculating
to horsepower based on a 1 "G" acceleration at the start of the launch.
I've flown off a Supacat and while it had good acceleration, it sure
didn't match up to the whopper of a winch that was built by the permian
soaring association. Talk about a zippy launch!

http://members.cox.net/tsample10/SpecialProjects.html

By the way, I think this "unified winch design" concept is a really
great move.


>
> If you have a diesel driving through a fluid flywheel you don't need
> that much power: we have a Supacat with a 245 hp Deutz V8 aircooled
> industrial diesel and torque converter (no gearbox). This can launch
> an ASH-25 or just about any Nimbus. With a 15 m glider, K-21 or Grob
> you'd expect 1200-1400 ft on a 1000m run in calm conditions and over
> 2000 ft if its blowing a bit.
>
> I'd agree with everything you've said about the specialised nature of
> a glider winch, the heavy duty engineering and the costs.
>
> --
> martin@ : Martin Gregorie
> gregorie : Harlow, UK
> demon :
> co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
> uk :
>

[Diederik]

See also: http://www.proximedia.com/local/netherlands/m/machine-el/various.htm

Diederik

BTW: I have winched twin astirs, fully loaded, k-8's, T-21 tutor and
prefects with a 350 hp winch. No problem, it's just how you adjust the
throtle


Stefan > wrote in message >...
> Not exactly what you asked for, but take a look at
>
> http://www.skylaunch.de/album/index.html
>
> It's fun and it may give you some ideas.
>
> Stefan

[Mark Zivley]

Yep, it's just not the same when you can match the displacement of an
entire European car engine with the displacement of just 2, maybe 3,
cylinders worth of an American big block motor......

tango4 wrote:

> You have to remember folks that these are American horsepower units. About
> 2:1 is a good ratio against proper European horses!
>
> :-)
>
> Ian
>
> "Kevin Neave" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Bill,
>>
>>I think you need to revisit your numbers.
>>
>>Here at Nympsfield (UK) we have a Supacat winch with
>>a 250 horse Diesel that easily provides enough power
>>for the biggest gliders on site (DG505, DuoDT, Nimbus3DT)
>>(And pretty scary in a Libelle if the winch driver
>>is *over enthusiastic*)
>>
>>The previous engine was 180 HP, this was a bit marginal
>>for the Heavy Glass, but more than enough for any single
>>seat
>>
>>(We have a 1000m field & regularly get 1500', even
>>nil wind)
>>
>>:-)
>>
>>KN
>>
>>At 15:36 19 March 2004, Bill Daniels wrote:
>>
>>>Mark, unfortunately, the physics of a winch launch
>>>says that it takes about
>>>1 kWh or 3,600,000 Joules to launch a glider. The
>>>peak power demand places
>>>yet another constraint on the minimum HP that must
>>>be available. Those
>>>numbers point to a 400 to 500 HP engine to be able
>>>to provide launch service
>>>to any glider in the existing fleet.
>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Bob Korves]

"Marc Ramsey" > wrote in message
. com...
> I think the difference is that Bill is considering operating at much
> higher density altitudes. In the western US, there are many glider
> operations where summer density altitudes are in the 8000+ foot range.
>
> Marc

Actually, most of the newer and larger diesels are turbocharged and have
electronic controls, including absolute manifold pressure sensors,
electronically controlled fuel injectors, and turbos with waste gates.
These engines will typically make full rated horsepower and torque at
density altitudes above 10,000 feet.

Electronically controlled engines also leave open the possibility of
controlling the engine without the typical manual input to the foot or hand
throttle. The foot pedal in that big diesel behind you on the freeway only
has copper wires between the foot pedal and the engine's ECU (electronic
control unit). It should be quite possible for someone (like you, Marc) to
program such an engine to desired and optimized parameters during each part
of the launch for each type of glider, with perhaps a hand control to
override the automatic settings. The ECU's on the engines already have
cruise control and PTO functions built in, as well as logger functions,
fault logging, fail soft ability, etc. Big trucks today have as much
electronics as cars.
-Bob Korves

[Mark James Boyd]

Bill Daniels > wrote:
>
>"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
>
>> I'd love to see a winch design that uses a 100hp or less engine,
>> can be easily bolted on the back of an old pickup, and has engine
>> and parts that are low maintenance and (especially engine) easy
>> to acquire (either locally or via shipping).
>>
>> Alternately, how about a "spare tire" that is really a winch drum.
>> a stable sturdy "jack" and some way to route the cable
>> to ensure it winds up nice.
>>
>> Might not work (thoughts of side loads tipping my car
>> over come to mind!), but it sure is fun to play with the
>> thuoght!
>> --
>
>Mark, unfortunately, the physics of a winch launch says that it takes about
>1 kWh or 3,600,000 Joules to launch a glider. The peak power demand places

Hmmm...so all gliders are alike? A Gapa or Russia REQUIRES the
same HP as a ballasted LAK-12 or Nimbus 4? Something 400 pounds
vs. 1600 pounds? I know this isn't what you meant...

I read the Marske site and saw the (wt lbs) x (wing loading lbs) x .03 = hp
and it looked like these mini gliders "needed" about 100 hp.

>yet another constraint on the minimum HP that must be available. Those
>numbers point to a 400 to 500 HP engine to be able to provide launch service
>to any glider in the existing fleet. Although the initial cost of a well
>engineered winch is high (nearly as much as a tow plane) the long term costs
>are only a few percent as much a tug.

A coupla points: well engineered, is limited in how high you
can get, and very hard to move around are winch disadvantages.
The height is tough to get with any winch (8000 ft sightseeing
sled rides ain't gonna happen). But if we assume we'll only fly
500 gross wt. with < 6# wing loading, how does this ease the
engineering and building costs, and how mobile is this
new mini-winch?

If we can build four of these things for the price and energy
of a 400hp version, is the launch weight limitation less of a
disadvantage? How about if we can build eight of these for the
same price? How about if we can build 16?

Obviously if you fly 1600 lbs of glider, this does you no good.
And sure, there are non-recurring engineering costs to
making 2, 4, 8, 16 of these. I guess what I'm saying
is I'm not gonna see a big winch that launches 1600 lbs
at MY gliderport in the next 5 years, but I'm gonna bet
I'll see a small, portable, back of the truck winch at
Tehachapi at the Vintage Sailplane Rally in about a month...

I've also seen pictures and know there are dozens (maybe hundreds)
of hugely capable, overengineered (IMHO) winch designs (they seem
to all be custom homebuilts).
For novelty, I'd like to see the juxtaposed minimalist approach.
I've been very impressed by the lighter, smaller gliders
I've seen recently. I'm excited about the idea
of towing them with a 75 hp towplane. I'd like
to see a 100 hp winch, even if it was underpowered, just to
see HOW underpowered...

>
>The good news is that the total energy consumed for one launch (About 1
>liter of diesel fuel equivalent) is tiny compared to any other launch method
>except bungee launch. (Excluding, of course, the beer you have to provide
>the bungee crew.)

Auto tow's about the same, but without the construction costs,
from what I gather. The huge downside (I'm finding out) is that
auto-tow takes a HUGE amount of room/runway...

>A glider winch is a highly specialized piece of machinery that needs the
>kind of engineering Ulrich is asking for. Please avoid the temptation to
>cobble some junk together to make a barely workable winch. That sort of
>thing has given winch launch a bad name in the USA.

There's that word "needs" again. ;P Keep in mind you are sharing this
thread with ME, an avid experimenter and no stranger to failure...

>A well run winch operation is very attractive to newcomers to the sport. It
>shows a lot of ground activity that is visible to the onlookers and the
>rides are a real thrill. Lets get winching!

The only winch I know of on the west coast USA that one can
schedule use of is Northwest Soaring an hour east of Seattle.
I called them and it's a May-Oct operation at Cle Elum. Fortunately
the flights out of San Fran area are $130 round trip, so it'll
be cheap to visit there this summer :))) .
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

[Mark James Boyd]

In article >,
Ulrich Neumann > wrote:
(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:<405aa3e8$1@darkstar>...
>> mat Redsell > wrote:
>> >My statement was very confusing... what I really meant was without the winch
>> >I think that we will be in troubles down the road for affordable tows....
>> >
>> >And in part I do think that we have taken a wrong road with high wing
>> >loading. for example with the Monarch we are able to tow it aloft with 160
>> >lbs of tension at a speed of about 15 mph with a wind down the runway of
>> >about 10 mph. This requires a very small rope and small horsepower.
>> >
>> >http://www.continuo.com/marske/
>> >look under articles for : ultralight design parameters design parameters of
>> >the ultralight glider
>>
>> I'd love to see a winch design that uses a 100hp or less engine,
>> can be easily bolted on the back of an old pickup, and has engine
>> and parts that are low maintenance and (especially engine) easy
>> to acquire (either locally or via shipping).
>>
>> Alternately, how about a "spare tire" that is really a winch drum.
>> a stable sturdy "jack" and some way to route the cable
>> to ensure it winds up nice.
>>
>> Might not work (thoughts of side loads tipping my car
>> over come to mind!), but it sure is fun to play with the
>> thuoght!
>
>Mark,
>
>a 100HP or less winch? What are you trying to launch - kites or RC
>gliders? The Europeans are replacing their winches powered
>traditionally by Detroit's finest with big rig Diesels, because ...?
>Lets get real here. As nice as it sounds to have your own personal
>winch in the trunk, the reality looks more like you could haul your
>car around with the winch.
>
>But keep the ideas coming.
>
>Ulrich Neumann

The previous post about the Marske stuff was my reference. Keep in mind
that yes, I AM talking about very lightweight gliders (either
ultralight or close to it). Not necessarily as interesting to the
"soaring enthusiasts" found here, but interesting to me as a
"soaring consumer."

If you wonder where this push comes from, it's from years
of having fellow pilots tell everyone how airplanes cost
"tens of thousands of dollars" and take $5000 to learn how to
fly. I own a $6000 airplane which one could learn to solo
in about 20 flights ($2000).

http://www.cse.ucsc.edu/~mjboyd/cfi/GHFCcharter

A lot of aviation is overkill. Garmin 430, lights, a starter,
flaps, oleo struts, a heater, blah blah blah. And
who needs a PPL? Solo is solo. There's no doubt who's
flying the thing...where did all this complexity come from?
Society, certainly not the aircraft itself...

Do we NEED a 245 hp winch? Is it POSSIBLE to launch
with something smaller and less hassle?

Do we NEED two 40# thrust turbines, or just one and a lighter
glider? ;P
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

[Bruce Greeff]

4740' MSL - temperatures in the mid 30s Celcius.
220 HP winch (and that was when it was new fifteen years ago)

We launch Blanik L13, Kestrel 19m etc quite satisfactorily...

One advantage of a relatively low power winch is it is simple to drive. With the
heavier two seaters and the Kestrel it is a case of roll on full power over four
seconds. Leave it there until the time comes to release.

OK - we do have 1800m of wire, and we only get 1500' to 2300' AGL. Our
conditions are good enough that we seldom need a relight during the middle of
the day. Launch after 15:00 and you are taking your chances as always, but I
don't think that a couple of hundred feet AGL will make such a difference then
anyway.

[tango4]

"Mark Zivley" > wrote in message
...
> Yep, it's just not the same when you can match the displacement of an
> entire European car engine with the displacement of just 2, maybe 3,
> cylinders worth of an American big block motor......

Not to mention the CO emissions and resource usage ......

Ahh, but what the hell, when all the fish are dead, the sky rains acid, the
cows all have two heads and the crops die off because Monsanto decides to
modify the wrong gene it won't be our problem!

Cynically yours
Ian

[Bill Daniels]

We have had several people writing that they have launched heavy glider X
with a low powered winch. I have done it and so have many others, but this
is still not a good idea. There are serious dangers involved.

The best way to look at it is to consider power demand and supply. The
winch engine should be able to supply all the power the glider demands. If
the glider demands more power that is available by pulling up hard, the
airspeed will decay quickly. If the pilot knows this is going to happen, he
can manage it by controlling the pitch attitude carefully. If he doesn't
expect it, the airspeed will decay so quickly that a very dangerous
situation will develop.

The attempt to launch gliders with a low powered winch gets into who is in
control of the launch. I think it goes without saying that who controls the
launch should not be in doubt. The majority view is clearly that the winch
driver should be in charge.

With a low powered winch, the winch driver is in charge early in the launch
but as the glider steepens the climb, the power demand exceeds supply and
speed control shifts to the glider pilot who now must control airspeed with
pitch since the winch is at full throttle. As the glider rises still
further and power demands lessen, airspeed control shifts back to the winch
driver who must reduce power to prevent over speeding the glider. There
are lots of ways this scenario can go badly wrong.

The other area where a low powered winch can cause problems is in the
initial acceleration. The German Aero Club specifies the maximum distance
that a glider can use to reach flying speed to determine the minimum winch
power. Specifically, under all conceivable wind, density altitude and
weight conditions, a glider must reach Vr (rotation speed) in 40 meters or
less - there is no minimum specified. This is a very intelligent
specification. The concern driving this spec is that should a glider's wing
drop to the ground before reaching flying speed, the resulting ground loop
will be very ugly and quite possibly fatal for the glider pilot.

These concerns and the desire to get the highest launch possible, has driven
winch horsepower higher and higher in recent years. Shortening the
accelerate to Vr distance has a powerful effect on the launch height
achievable. Many powerful winches have shortened this to less than 20
meters.

To summarize, I am advocating generous power reserves to permit the winch
driver to maintain control of the launch and to insure the glider reaches
flying speed before a wing can drop.

Bill Daniels

[Bruce Greeff]

Hi Bill

I respect your views but there are some differences in the way we see things here:

Firstly please note that I am not advocating underpowered winches. I do however
maintain that power is not the most important safety issue in winch launching,
and that - for our fleet where the highest wingloading is relatively modest, and
the heaviest glider is a Blanik L13 - a winch with 220Hp is adequate. (maybe 250
would be better)

Bill Daniels wrote:
> We have had several people writing that they have launched heavy glider X
> with a low powered winch. I have done it and so have many others, but this
> is still not a good idea. There are serious dangers involved.
>
Too low power is dangerous, and we agree entirely that more power is desirable.
Interestingly the most recent National Safety meeting addressed winch launching
as the primary theme.

There were >25 Safety Officers and at least ten Chief Flying Instructors as well
as the SSSA Exco present. One thing that became apparent was that there is no
optimal power winch. In particular - when launching old designs that are light,
high wing with the hook at a considerable vertical displacement from the wing,
there have been numerous dangerous launches where the initial acceleration
exceeds the control authority on the glider. The example given was launching a
Ka8 with the stick hard against the forward stop for most of the launch.

Too much acceleration is as dangerous as too little.

> The best way to look at it is to consider power demand and supply. The
> winch engine should be able to supply all the power the glider demands. If
> the glider demands more power that is available by pulling up hard, the
> airspeed will decay quickly. If the pilot knows this is going to happen, he
> can manage it by controlling the pitch attitude carefully. If he doesn't
> expect it, the airspeed will decay so quickly that a very dangerous
> situation will develop.
>
Agreed, and all of our pilots have to learn to control their demands on the
winch before going solo. In this respect it would be safer and better to have
more power for perhaps 30% of our fleet. Conversely, any piulot who relies on
the generous power reserve of the winch to compensate for pulling back too hard
is dangerous. I am all for the speed decay to warn the pilot. That way, when the
winch falters, he will compensate automatically because he will be used to
monitoring and controlling airspeed carefully.

> The attempt to launch gliders with a low powered winch gets into who is in
> control of the launch. I think it goes without saying that who controls the
> launch should not be in doubt. The majority view is clearly that the winch
> driver should be in charge.
>
Here I differ, the pilot is always in control of his / her destiny. Our process
is that the launch marshal controlls the launch process, and the winch driver
and pilot must work together. A skilled winch driver is in control at all times
within the parameters dictated by physics. If we have a pilot who over rotates
and "bends the pole" a number of things will happen.
With the exception of the Blanik with its flaps deployed the winch driver will
be able to keep the glider above stall speed with full throttle.
The winch driver is still in control and may decide that the probability of a
maximum tension cable break is dangerously high and elect to reduce power until
the pilot takes the pressure off the cable. (even if it results in a low release)
If the pilot is being ham fisted the cable will probably break resulting in a
dangerous recovery and the possibility of landing damage. This probability is
directly proportional to the instantaneous force on the cable, here a powerful
winch is a distinct liability.
In any event an overzealous pilot is going to get a lecture from the CFI...


> With a low powered winch, the winch driver is in charge early in the launch
> but as the glider steepens the climb, the power demand exceeds supply and
> speed control shifts to the glider pilot who now must control airspeed with
> pitch since the winch is at full throttle. As the glider rises still
> further and power demands lessen, airspeed control shifts back to the winch
> driver who must reduce power to prevent over speeding the glider. There
> are lots of ways this scenario can go badly wrong.
>
> The other area where a low powered winch can cause problems is in the
> initial acceleration. The German Aero Club specifies the maximum distance
> that a glider can use to reach flying speed to determine the minimum winch
> power. Specifically, under all conceivable wind, density altitude and
> weight conditions, a glider must reach Vr (rotation speed) in 40 meters or
> less - there is no minimum specified. This is a very intelligent
> specification. The concern driving this spec is that should a glider's wing
> drop to the ground before reaching flying speed, the resulting ground loop
> will be very ugly and quite possibly fatal for the glider pilot.
>
> These concerns and the desire to get the highest launch possible, has driven
> winch horsepower higher and higher in recent years. Shortening the
> accelerate to Vr distance has a powerful effect on the launch height
> achievable. Many powerful winches have shortened this to less than 20
> meters.

IF we were launching twin Astirs, or K21s or other heavy two seater I would
concur that you would want more power. But bear in mind that the Blue weak link
is easily overcome by a 200-250Hp winch. If that is the heaviest weak link
specified you are wasting your time on more power.

Again I agree that more initial acceleration is desirable - I HATE slow
acceleration launches in my Cirrus because the chance of a wing drop is higher.
TO overcome this we use gearing on the winch that increases the effective torque
available.
>
> To summarize, I am advocating generous power reserves to permit the winch
> driver to maintain control of the launch and to insure the glider reaches
> flying speed before a wing can drop.
>
> Bill Daniels
>

Generous power reserves are desirable. I am just not convinced that the use of
very powerful winches imnproves safety. My experience is that an adequately
powerful winch that is tractable and predictable is safe, even if there are
compromises on height and initial acceleration. In our mixed vintage and glass
setting it would be challenging to have a super powerful winch.

My conclusion is that it is desirable to have generous power reserves and good
torque for fast acceleration of the heaviest aircraft on the fleet. It is also
imperative that the control be adequately calibrated so that power output can be
modulated easily for all of the gliders the winch could be expected to launch.

Bruce

[Bill Daniels]

"Bruce Greeff" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Bill
>
> I respect your views but there are some differences in the way we see
things here:
>
> Firstly please note that I am not advocating underpowered winches. I do
however
> maintain that power is not the most important safety issue in winch
launching,
> and that - for our fleet where the highest wingloading is relatively
modest, and
> the heaviest glider is a Blanik L13 - a winch with 220Hp is adequate.
(maybe 250
> would be better)
>
> Bill Daniels wrote:
> > We have had several people writing that they have launched heavy glider
X
> > with a low powered winch. I have done it and so have many others, but
this
> > is still not a good idea. There are serious dangers involved.
> >
> Too low power is dangerous, and we agree entirely that more power is
desirable.
> Interestingly the most recent National Safety meeting addressed winch
launching
> as the primary theme.
>
> There were >25 Safety Officers and at least ten Chief Flying Instructors
as well
> as the SSSA Exco present. One thing that became apparent was that there is
no
> optimal power winch. In particular - when launching old designs that are
light,
> high wing with the hook at a considerable vertical displacement from the
wing,
> there have been numerous dangerous launches where the initial acceleration
> exceeds the control authority on the glider. The example given was
launching a
> Ka8 with the stick hard against the forward stop for most of the launch.
>
> Too much acceleration is as dangerous as too little.
>
> > The best way to look at it is to consider power demand and supply. The
> > winch engine should be able to supply all the power the glider demands.
If
> > the glider demands more power that is available by pulling up hard, the
> > airspeed will decay quickly. If the pilot knows this is going to
happen, he
> > can manage it by controlling the pitch attitude carefully. If he
doesn't
> > expect it, the airspeed will decay so quickly that a very dangerous
> > situation will develop.
> >
> Agreed, and all of our pilots have to learn to control their demands on
the
> winch before going solo. In this respect it would be safer and better to
have
> more power for perhaps 30% of our fleet. Conversely, any piulot who relies
on
> the generous power reserve of the winch to compensate for pulling back too
hard
> is dangerous. I am all for the speed decay to warn the pilot. That way,
when the
> winch falters, he will compensate automatically because he will be used to
> monitoring and controlling airspeed carefully.
>
> > The attempt to launch gliders with a low powered winch gets into who is
in
> > control of the launch. I think it goes without saying that who controls
the
> > launch should not be in doubt. The majority view is clearly that the
winch
> > driver should be in charge.
> >
> Here I differ, the pilot is always in control of his / her destiny. Our
process
> is that the launch marshal controlls the launch process, and the winch
driver
> and pilot must work together. A skilled winch driver is in control at all
times
> within the parameters dictated by physics. If we have a pilot who over
rotates
> and "bends the pole" a number of things will happen.
> With the exception of the Blanik with its flaps deployed the winch driver
will
> be able to keep the glider above stall speed with full throttle.
> The winch driver is still in control and may decide that the probability
of a
> maximum tension cable break is dangerously high and elect to reduce power
until
> the pilot takes the pressure off the cable. (even if it results in a low
release)
> If the pilot is being ham fisted the cable will probably break resulting
in a
> dangerous recovery and the possibility of landing damage. This probability
is
> directly proportional to the instantaneous force on the cable, here a
powerful
> winch is a distinct liability.
> In any event an overzealous pilot is going to get a lecture from the
CFI...
>
>
> > With a low powered winch, the winch driver is in charge early in the
launch
> > but as the glider steepens the climb, the power demand exceeds supply
and
> > speed control shifts to the glider pilot who now must control airspeed
with
> > pitch since the winch is at full throttle. As the glider rises still
> > further and power demands lessen, airspeed control shifts back to the
winch
> > driver who must reduce power to prevent over speeding the glider.
There
> > are lots of ways this scenario can go badly wrong.
> >
> > The other area where a low powered winch can cause problems is in the
> > initial acceleration. The German Aero Club specifies the maximum
distance
> > that a glider can use to reach flying speed to determine the minimum
winch
> > power. Specifically, under all conceivable wind, density altitude and
> > weight conditions, a glider must reach Vr (rotation speed) in 40 meters
or
> > less - there is no minimum specified. This is a very intelligent
> > specification. The concern driving this spec is that should a glider's
wing
> > drop to the ground before reaching flying speed, the resulting ground
loop
> > will be very ugly and quite possibly fatal for the glider pilot.
> >
> > These concerns and the desire to get the highest launch possible, has
driven
> > winch horsepower higher and higher in recent years. Shortening the
> > accelerate to Vr distance has a powerful effect on the launch height
> > achievable. Many powerful winches have shortened this to less than 20
> > meters.
>
> IF we were launching twin Astirs, or K21s or other heavy two seater I
would
> concur that you would want more power. But bear in mind that the Blue weak
link
> is easily overcome by a 200-250Hp winch. If that is the heaviest weak link
> specified you are wasting your time on more power.
>
> Again I agree that more initial acceleration is desirable - I HATE slow
> acceleration launches in my Cirrus because the chance of a wing drop is
higher.
> TO overcome this we use gearing on the winch that increases the effective
torque
> available.
> >
> > To summarize, I am advocating generous power reserves to permit the
winch
> > driver to maintain control of the launch and to insure the glider
reaches
> > flying speed before a wing can drop.
> >
> > Bill Daniels
> >
>
> Generous power reserves are desirable. I am just not convinced that the
use of
> very powerful winches imnproves safety. My experience is that an
adequately
> powerful winch that is tractable and predictable is safe, even if there
are
> compromises on height and initial acceleration. In our mixed vintage and
glass
> setting it would be challenging to have a super powerful winch.
>
> My conclusion is that it is desirable to have generous power reserves and
good
> torque for fast acceleration of the heaviest aircraft on the fleet. It is
also
> imperative that the control be adequately calibrated so that power output
can be
> modulated easily for all of the gliders the winch could be expected to
launch.
>
> Bruce

Bruce, good points all.

I probably should have emphasized that with large power reserves, it becomes
imperative to have extremely precise control of that power.

I am in absolute agreement that there are gliders with inadequate down
elevator authority to cope with high initial acceleration. Your example of
a K8 is a good one.

If you would allow me, I will restate your objections thusly. 'Very
powerful winches with inadequate power controls, launching lighter wing
loading gliders possibly with inept winch drivers/pilots is a very dangerous
situation.' 'Given this situation, a less powerful winch is safer.' 'With
less power, the winch driver can just hold the throttle wide open and let
the glider pilot control airspeed with pitch.' I agree with this.

The only objection I can raise is that the launch will necessarily be
sub-optimal in that the glider could have utilized more power had it been
available and thus achieved a greater height.

Let me dream a little.

I think we all have noticed that once in a while, things just go perfectly
and the glider achieves a launch height that is perhaps 25% higher than the
norm. I'd like to make this the norm rather than a fortunate accident.

To achieve the control precision needed with powerful winches the winch
driver and pilot need more information. Just as a tow pilot controls the
glider's airspeed by reference to the tug's airspeed indicator, a winch
driver should have the gliders airspeed displayed as well as the glider's
acceleration in G's. The pilot should have the cable tension, measured at
the weak link, displayed on the panel.

I know some will say that a good winch driver can judge the glider's
airspeed by watching the cable sag. If Spectra is utilized instead of heavy
steel it will be as straight as a bow string and provide no information to
the winch driver.

My goal is that the responsibility should be divided as follows. The winch
driver should control the glider's acceleration and its airspeed throughout
the launch by reference to panel displays in the winch. The pilot should
control the cable tension with backpressure on the stick by reference to a
tensiometer on the panel while monitoring the airspeed. In this scenario,
the glider's initial acceleration and airspeed are held to the precise
values requested by the pilot and the tension at the weak link is a precise
value that the pilot feels comfortable with. The pilot is in complete
control and the launch is totally optimized and very safe.

If the pilot knows from experience that in a particular glider he can manage
1.1 G and feels that under the existing conditions, 60 knots would be
optimum, then 1.1G and 60 knots it shall be. If, during the launch, he
feels that a cable tension of 80% of the weak link breaking strength is
safe, then 80% it shall be. If the pilot is flying a K8 and knows the
maximum acceleration he can manage is 0.6 G and that 54 knots is optimum
given a 15 knot headwind then so it shall be. Beyond this, there is nothing
that could be done operationally that would improve the launch process.

Bill Daniels

[Ulrich Neumann]

Bruce and Bill,

these were very insightful contribution to this subject. I think that
nobody in his right mind would set out to purposely build an
underpowered winch. I think you cannot have too much power, as long as
it is controlable. The ECU's of modern big rig diesels would allow you
to have a preset power setting for each glider with an available
override. I remember one incident where an L-Spatz took off and as
soon as he rotated, the spoilers popped out. No radio and an oblivious
pilot left the winch operator no choice than to 'floor'it. We had a
360cuin V8 powerplant, which fortunately was capable to jank the Spatz
up even with the spoilers open. Had this been our K-21 or Janus-C, the
outcome would have certainly been different.
Don't get me wrong, I don't intend to design a winch capable of
converting a glider into a dragster by puling the fuselage from
between the wings, but power (read torque) is a good thing here.

Keep the discussion going - we have two more winter months to cover
;-)

Ulrich Neumann




Bruce Greeff > wrote in message >...
> Hi Bill
>
> I respect your views but there are some differences in the way we see things here:
>
> Firstly please note that I am not advocating underpowered winches. I do however
> maintain that power is not the most important safety issue in winch launching,
> and that - for our fleet where the highest wingloading is relatively modest, and
> the heaviest glider is a Blanik L13 - a winch with 220Hp is adequate. (maybe 250
> would be better)
>
> Bill Daniels wrote:
> > We have had several people writing that they have launched heavy glider X
> > with a low powered winch. I have done it and so have many others, but this
> > is still not a good idea. There are serious dangers involved.
> >
> Too low power is dangerous, and we agree entirely that more power is desirable.
> Interestingly the most recent National Safety meeting addressed winch launching
> as the primary theme.
>
> There were >25 Safety Officers and at least ten Chief Flying Instructors as well
> as the SSSA Exco present. One thing that became apparent was that there is no
> optimal power winch. In particular - when launching old designs that are light,
> high wing with the hook at a considerable vertical displacement from the wing,
> there have been numerous dangerous launches where the initial acceleration
> exceeds the control authority on the glider. The example given was launching a
> Ka8 with the stick hard against the forward stop for most of the launch.
>
> Too much acceleration is as dangerous as too little.
>
> > The best way to look at it is to consider power demand and supply. The
> > winch engine should be able to supply all the power the glider demands. If
> > the glider demands more power that is available by pulling up hard, the
> > airspeed will decay quickly. If the pilot knows this is going to happen, he
> > can manage it by controlling the pitch attitude carefully. If he doesn't
> > expect it, the airspeed will decay so quickly that a very dangerous
> > situation will develop.
> >
> Agreed, and all of our pilots have to learn to control their demands on the
> winch before going solo. In this respect it would be safer and better to have
> more power for perhaps 30% of our fleet. Conversely, any piulot who relies on
> the generous power reserve of the winch to compensate for pulling back too hard
> is dangerous. I am all for the speed decay to warn the pilot. That way, when the
> winch falters, he will compensate automatically because he will be used to
> monitoring and controlling airspeed carefully.
>
> > The attempt to launch gliders with a low powered winch gets into who is in
> > control of the launch. I think it goes without saying that who controls the
> > launch should not be in doubt. The majority view is clearly that the winch
> > driver should be in charge.
> >
> Here I differ, the pilot is always in control of his / her destiny. Our process
> is that the launch marshal controlls the launch process, and the winch driver
> and pilot must work together. A skilled winch driver is in control at all times
> within the parameters dictated by physics. If we have a pilot who over rotates
> and "bends the pole" a number of things will happen.
> With the exception of the Blanik with its flaps deployed the winch driver will
> be able to keep the glider above stall speed with full throttle.
> The winch driver is still in control and may decide that the probability of a
> maximum tension cable break is dangerously high and elect to reduce power until
> the pilot takes the pressure off the cable. (even if it results in a low release)
> If the pilot is being ham fisted the cable will probably break resulting in a
> dangerous recovery and the possibility of landing damage. This probability is
> directly proportional to the instantaneous force on the cable, here a powerful
> winch is a distinct liability.
> In any event an overzealous pilot is going to get a lecture from the CFI...
>
>
> > With a low powered winch, the winch driver is in charge early in the launch
> > but as the glider steepens the climb, the power demand exceeds supply and
> > speed control shifts to the glider pilot who now must control airspeed with
> > pitch since the winch is at full throttle. As the glider rises still
> > further and power demands lessen, airspeed control shifts back to the winch
> > driver who must reduce power to prevent over speeding the glider. There
> > are lots of ways this scenario can go badly wrong.
> >
> > The other area where a low powered winch can cause problems is in the
> > initial acceleration. The German Aero Club specifies the maximum distance
> > that a glider can use to reach flying speed to determine the minimum winch
> > power. Specifically, under all conceivable wind, density altitude and
> > weight conditions, a glider must reach Vr (rotation speed) in 40 meters or
> > less - there is no minimum specified. This is a very intelligent
> > specification. The concern driving this spec is that should a glider's wing
> > drop to the ground before reaching flying speed, the resulting ground loop
> > will be very ugly and quite possibly fatal for the glider pilot.
> >
> > These concerns and the desire to get the highest launch possible, has driven
> > winch horsepower higher and higher in recent years. Shortening the
> > accelerate to Vr distance has a powerful effect on the launch height
> > achievable. Many powerful winches have shortened this to less than 20
> > meters.
>
> IF we were launching twin Astirs, or K21s or other heavy two seater I would
> concur that you would want more power. But bear in mind that the Blue weak link
> is easily overcome by a 200-250Hp winch. If that is the heaviest weak link
> specified you are wasting your time on more power.
>
> Again I agree that more initial acceleration is desirable - I HATE slow
> acceleration launches in my Cirrus because the chance of a wing drop is higher.
> TO overcome this we use gearing on the winch that increases the effective torque
> available.
> >
> > To summarize, I am advocating generous power reserves to permit the winch
> > driver to maintain control of the launch and to insure the glider reaches
> > flying speed before a wing can drop.
> >
> > Bill Daniels
> >
>
> Generous power reserves are desirable. I am just not convinced that the use of
> very powerful winches imnproves safety. My experience is that an adequately
> powerful winch that is tractable and predictable is safe, even if there are
> compromises on height and initial acceleration. In our mixed vintage and glass
> setting it would be challenging to have a super powerful winch.
>
> My conclusion is that it is desirable to have generous power reserves and good
> torque for fast acceleration of the heaviest aircraft on the fleet. It is also
> imperative that the control be adequately calibrated so that power output can be
> modulated easily for all of the gliders the winch could be expected to launch.
>
> Bruce

[Marcel Duenner]

Marc Ramsey > wrote in message >...
> Martin Gregorie wrote:
> > If you have a diesel driving through a fluid flywheel you don't need
> > that much power: we have a Supacat with a 245 hp Deutz V8 aircooled
> > industrial diesel and torque converter (no gearbox). This can launch
> > an ASH-25 or just about any Nimbus. With a 15 m glider, K-21 or Grob
> > you'd expect 1200-1400 ft on a 1000m run in calm conditions and over
> > 2000 ft if its blowing a bit.
>
> I think the difference is that Bill is considering operating at much
> higher density altitudes. In the western US, there are many glider
> operations where summer density altitudes are in the 8000+ foot range.
>
> Marc


So?
Our setup: 222kW (300hp) turbocharged diesel, 6 drums, 1000m of steel
cable. This winch has handled everything including a 4DM. Even a
slight tailwind and a ASH25 are no real problem.
Samedan, the highest airport in Europe at over 5600ft MSL, has the
same winch with four drums. No problems at all. It's heaven compared
to the voluminous petrol monster they had before.
BTW these winches use an average of 0.4 litres of Diesel per launch.

[Eric Greenwell]

Marcel Duenner wrote:


> So?
> Our setup: 222kW (300hp) turbocharged diesel, 6 drums, 1000m of steel
> cable. This winch has handled everything including a 4DM. Even a
> slight tailwind and a ASH25 are no real problem.
> Samedan, the highest airport in Europe at over 5600ft MSL, has the
> same winch with four drums. No problems at all. It's heaven compared
> to the voluminous petrol monster they had before.
> BTW these winches use an average of 0.4 litres of Diesel per launch.

How much petrol per launch did the previous winch use? Is there a big
price difference between the two fuels?
--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Craig Freeman]

(Ulrich Neumann) wrote in message >...
> Bruce and Bill,
>
> these were very insightful contribution to this subject. I think that
> nobody in his right mind would set out to purposely build an
> underpowered winch. I think you cannot have too much power, as long as
> it is controlable. The ECU's of modern big rig diesels would allow you
> to have a preset power setting for each glider with an available
> override.

True today's electronic can be programed to various power outputs.
However it is not possible to do this in a way that would be useful
in the winch application. At least not through the engines computer.
To reprogram the engine you first have to be trained and then have
access to the OEM codes. Only dealers and certified shops get these
codes and then it varies engine by engine as to specific results.
Also to time consuming and not able to make small enough adjustments
to be useful in winch launching. However an external system such
as Bill has proposed could tell the engine "give me more or give me
less". Until a system such as this is built and proven there is
no substitute for the human bean, er brain.

I remember one incident where an L-Spatz took off and as
> soon as he rotated, the spoilers popped out. No radio and an oblivious
> pilot left the winch operator no choice than to 'floor'it. We had a
> 360cuin V8 powerplant, which fortunately was capable to jank the Spatz
> up even with the spoilers open. Had this been our K-21 or Janus-C, the
> outcome would have certainly been different.
> Don't get me wrong, I don't intend to design a winch capable of
> converting a glider into a dragster by puling the fuselage from
> between the wings, but power (read torque) is a good thing here.
>
> Keep the discussion going - we have two more winter months to cover
>
Two months- NO WAY four knotters all over the place in West Texas
yesterday. Our winch is already getting a workout. Yipee !!

Craig-
>
> Ulrich Neumann
>
>
>
>
> Bruce Greeff > wrote in message >...
> > Hi Bill
> >
> > I respect your views but there are some differences in the way we see things here:
> >
> > Firstly please note that I am not advocating underpowered winches. I do however
> > maintain that power is not the most important safety issue in winch launching,
> > and that - for our fleet where the highest wingloading is relatively modest, and
> > the heaviest glider is a Blanik L13 - a winch with 220Hp is adequate. (maybe 250
> > would be better)
> >
> > Bill Daniels wrote:
> > > We have had several people writing that they have launched heavy glider X
> > > with a low powered winch. I have done it and so have many others, but this
> > > is still not a good idea. There are serious dangers involved.
> > >
> > Too low power is dangerous, and we agree entirely that more power is desirable.
> > Interestingly the most recent National Safety meeting addressed winch launching
> > as the primary theme.
> >
> > There were >25 Safety Officers and at least ten Chief Flying Instructors as well
> > as the SSSA Exco present. One thing that became apparent was that there is no
> > optimal power winch. In particular - when launching old designs that are light,
> > high wing with the hook at a considerable vertical displacement from the wing,
> > there have been numerous dangerous launches where the initial acceleration
> > exceeds the control authority on the glider. The example given was launching a
> > Ka8 with the stick hard against the forward stop for most of the launch.
> >
> > Too much acceleration is as dangerous as too little.
> >
> > > The best way to look at it is to consider power demand and supply. The
> > > winch engine should be able to supply all the power the glider demands. If
> > > the glider demands more power that is available by pulling up hard, the
> > > airspeed will decay quickly. If the pilot knows this is going to happen, he
> > > can manage it by controlling the pitch attitude carefully. If he doesn't
> > > expect it, the airspeed will decay so quickly that a very dangerous
> > > situation will develop.
> > >
> > Agreed, and all of our pilots have to learn to control their demands on the
> > winch before going solo. In this respect it would be safer and better to have
> > more power for perhaps 30% of our fleet. Conversely, any piulot who relies on
> > the generous power reserve of the winch to compensate for pulling back too hard
> > is dangerous. I am all for the speed decay to warn the pilot. That way, when the
> > winch falters, he will compensate automatically because he will be used to
> > monitoring and controlling airspeed carefully.
> >
> > > The attempt to launch gliders with a low powered winch gets into who is in
> > > control of the launch. I think it goes without saying that who controls the
> > > launch should not be in doubt. The majority view is clearly that the winch
> > > driver should be in charge.
> > >
> > Here I differ, the pilot is always in control of his / her destiny. Our process
> > is that the launch marshal controlls the launch process, and the winch driver
> > and pilot must work together. A skilled winch driver is in control at all times
> > within the parameters dictated by physics. If we have a pilot who over rotates
> > and "bends the pole" a number of things will happen.
> > With the exception of the Blanik with its flaps deployed the winch driver will
> > be able to keep the glider above stall speed with full throttle.
> > The winch driver is still in control and may decide that the probability of a
> > maximum tension cable break is dangerously high and elect to reduce power until
> > the pilot takes the pressure off the cable. (even if it results in a low release)
> > If the pilot is being ham fisted the cable will probably break resulting in a
> > dangerous recovery and the possibility of landing damage. This probability is
> > directly proportional to the instantaneous force on the cable, here a powerful
> > winch is a distinct liability.
> > In any event an overzealous pilot is going to get a lecture from the CFI...
> >
> >
> > > With a low powered winch, the winch driver is in charge early in the launch
> > > but as the glider steepens the climb, the power demand exceeds supply and
> > > speed control shifts to the glider pilot who now must control airspeed with
> > > pitch since the winch is at full throttle. As the glider rises still
> > > further and power demands lessen, airspeed control shifts back to the winch
> > > driver who must reduce power to prevent over speeding the glider. There
> > > are lots of ways this scenario can go badly wrong.
> > >
> > > The other area where a low powered winch can cause problems is in the
> > > initial acceleration. The German Aero Club specifies the maximum distance
> > > that a glider can use to reach flying speed to determine the minimum winch
> > > power. Specifically, under all conceivable wind, density altitude and
> > > weight conditions, a glider must reach Vr (rotation speed) in 40 meters or
> > > less - there is no minimum specified. This is a very intelligent
> > > specification. The concern driving this spec is that should a glider's wing
> > > drop to the ground before reaching flying speed, the resulting ground loop
> > > will be very ugly and quite possibly fatal for the glider pilot.
> > >
> > > These concerns and the desire to get the highest launch possible, has driven
> > > winch horsepower higher and higher in recent years. Shortening the
> > > accelerate to Vr distance has a powerful effect on the launch height
> > > achievable. Many powerful winches have shortened this to less than 20
> > > meters.
> >
> > IF we were launching twin Astirs, or K21s or other heavy two seater I would
> > concur that you would want more power. But bear in mind that the Blue weak link
> > is easily overcome by a 200-250Hp winch. If that is the heaviest weak link
> > specified you are wasting your time on more power.
> >
> > Again I agree that more initial acceleration is desirable - I HATE slow
> > acceleration launches in my Cirrus because the chance of a wing drop is higher.
> > TO overcome this we use gearing on the winch that increases the effective torque
> > available.
> > >
> > > To summarize, I am advocating generous power reserves to permit the winch
> > > driver to maintain control of the launch and to insure the glider reaches
> > > flying speed before a wing can drop.
> > >
> > > Bill Daniels
> > >
> >
> > Generous power reserves are desirable. I am just not convinced that the use of
> > very powerful winches imnproves safety. My experience is that an adequately
> > powerful winch that is tractable and predictable is safe, even if there are
> > compromises on height and initial acceleration. In our mixed vintage and glass
> > setting it would be challenging to have a super powerful winch.
> >
> > My conclusion is that it is desirable to have generous power reserves and good
> > torque for fast acceleration of the heaviest aircraft on the fleet. It is also
> > imperative that the control be adequately calibrated so that power output can be
> > modulated easily for all of the gliders the winch could be expected to launch.
> >
> > Bruce

[Bill Daniels]

"Craig Freeman" > wrote in message
om...
> (Ulrich Neumann) wrote in message
>...
> > Bruce and Bill,
> >
> > these were very insightful contribution to this subject. I think that
> > nobody in his right mind would set out to purposely build an
> > underpowered winch. I think you cannot have too much power, as long as
> > it is controlable. The ECU's of modern big rig diesels would allow you
> > to have a preset power setting for each glider with an available
> > override.
>
> True today's electronic can be programed to various power outputs.
> However it is not possible to do this in a way that would be useful
> in the winch application. At least not through the engines computer.
> To reprogram the engine you first have to be trained and then have
> access to the OEM codes. Only dealers and certified shops get these
> codes and then it varies engine by engine as to specific results.
> Also to time consuming and not able to make small enough adjustments
> to be useful in winch launching. However an external system such
> as Bill has proposed could tell the engine "give me more or give me
> less". Until a system such as this is built and proven there is
> no substitute for the human bean, er brain.
>

I have it on "pretty good" authority that these ECU's are simple to hack or
reverse engineer. Several gray market operations have already done it and
offer replacement ECU's with extensive user controls accessible through a
serial port from a laptop running special software. The market demand seems
to be coming from the participants in tractor pull competitions.

I would tend to think that the maximum power setting of the ECU would be
best used as a safety limit set to , say, 10% over the expected power
demand. With 3000 + foot pounds of torque available on these large diesels,
a winch driver sneeze at just the wrong time might produce interesting
results. If we go to a "full authority" autolaunch system, having a
separate power limiting safety net seems like a good idea.

You know, there is another "feel good" thing about diesels. There is a
rapidly expanding supply of renewable "biodiesel" fuel whose source is
vegetable oils produced domestically. Since CO2 went into growing the crop
that produced the oil, releasing it back into the atmosphere results in no
net increase in atmospheric CO2. With biodiesel fuel, a diesel runs
better, lasts longer and sure smells better. It's a little more expensive
than petroleum based diesel but at .4 liters of fuel per launch, you aren't
going to use much of it.

Bill Daniels

[Bob Korves]

"Craig Freeman" > wrote in message
om...
>
> True today's electronic can be programed to various power outputs.
> However it is not possible to do this in a way that would be useful
> in the winch application. At least not through the engines computer.
> To reprogram the engine you first have to be trained and then have
> access to the OEM codes. Only dealers and certified shops get these
> codes and then it varies engine by engine as to specific results.
> Also to time consuming and not able to make small enough adjustments
> to be useful in winch launching. However an external system such
> as Bill has proposed could tell the engine "give me more or give me
> less". Until a system such as this is built and proven there is
> no substitute for the human bean, er brain.
>
> Craig-

I am a parts person at an International Trucks (Navistar) dealer. We are
full service dealers for International, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, and
Caterpillar engines. It is certainly possible to reprogram the ECU's of
these diesels. We do it every day. Simple and easy enough for high school
drop outs to do. I sell the software for reprogramming the engines. Shrink
wrap stuff, just like at the computer store. That said, it would probably
be possible to just replace the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor, "electronic
foot pedal") with a microprocessor circuit and get the thing to do what you
need. I am not a computer nerd, so I don't know the details...
-Bob Korves

[Bob Korves]

"Bill Daniels" > wrote in message
...
> demand. With 3000 + foot pounds of torque available on these large
diesels,

3000+ foot pounds?? Bill, you really are talking "big"! Is that just in
case a Horsa, CG-4a, or Gotha 242 shows up looking for a tow?

> You know, there is another "feel good" thing about diesels. There is a
> rapidly expanding supply of renewable "biodiesel" fuel whose source is
> vegetable oils produced domestically.
> Bill Daniels
>

International Trucks has "Green Diesel" technology that uses biodiesel.
These vehicles are out there in small numbers in the field already
throughout the U. S. and seem to work just fine. The exhaust smells like
french fries.

Off topic, perhaps, but a while back a prototype truck was in our dealership
that had no camshaft. The valves were electronically controlled and
hydraulically actuated, the same way that injectors are controlled on many
newer engines. This system allows unlimited options of valve timing and
different schemes of timing at different loads, running the engine on less
than all cylinders, etc. The valves also had no springs -- they were both
opened and closed hydraulically.
-Bob Korves

[tango4]

Have you ever smelt a diesel running on used vegetable oil?

It's just like standing in the local Fish and Chip shop!

Ian

"Bill Daniels" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Craig Freeman" > wrote in message
> om...
> > (Ulrich Neumann) wrote in message
> >...
> > > Bruce and Bill,
> > >
> > > these were very insightful contribution to this subject. I think that
> > > nobody in his right mind would set out to purposely build an
> > > underpowered winch. I think you cannot have too much power, as long as
> > > it is controlable. The ECU's of modern big rig diesels would allow you
> > > to have a preset power setting for each glider with an available
> > > override.
> >
> > True today's electronic can be programed to various power outputs.
> > However it is not possible to do this in a way that would be useful
> > in the winch application. At least not through the engines computer.
> > To reprogram the engine you first have to be trained and then have
> > access to the OEM codes. Only dealers and certified shops get these
> > codes and then it varies engine by engine as to specific results.
> > Also to time consuming and not able to make small enough adjustments
> > to be useful in winch launching. However an external system such
> > as Bill has proposed could tell the engine "give me more or give me
> > less". Until a system such as this is built and proven there is
> > no substitute for the human bean, er brain.
> >
>
> I have it on "pretty good" authority that these ECU's are simple to hack
or
> reverse engineer. Several gray market operations have already done it and
> offer replacement ECU's with extensive user controls accessible through a
> serial port from a laptop running special software. The market demand
seems
> to be coming from the participants in tractor pull competitions.
>
> I would tend to think that the maximum power setting of the ECU would be
> best used as a safety limit set to , say, 10% over the expected power
> demand. With 3000 + foot pounds of torque available on these large
diesels,
> a winch driver sneeze at just the wrong time might produce interesting
> results. If we go to a "full authority" autolaunch system, having a
> separate power limiting safety net seems like a good idea.
>
> You know, there is another "feel good" thing about diesels. There is a
> rapidly expanding supply of renewable "biodiesel" fuel whose source is
> vegetable oils produced domestically. Since CO2 went into growing the
crop
> that produced the oil, releasing it back into the atmosphere results in no
> net increase in atmospheric CO2. With biodiesel fuel, a diesel runs
> better, lasts longer and sure smells better. It's a little more expensive
> than petroleum based diesel but at .4 liters of fuel per launch, you
aren't
> going to use much of it.
>
> Bill Daniels
>

[Shawn Curry]

Bill Daniels wrote:

> "Craig Freeman" > wrote in message
> om...
>
(Ulrich Neumann) wrote in message
>
> >...
>
>>>Bruce and Bill,
>>>
>>>these were very insightful contribution to this subject. I think that
>>>nobody in his right mind would set out to purposely build an
>>>underpowered winch. I think you cannot have too much power, as long as
>>>it is controlable. The ECU's of modern big rig diesels would allow you
>>>to have a preset power setting for each glider with an available
>>>override.
>>
>> True today's electronic can be programed to various power outputs.
>>However it is not possible to do this in a way that would be useful
>>in the winch application. At least not through the engines computer.
>>To reprogram the engine you first have to be trained and then have
>>access to the OEM codes. Only dealers and certified shops get these
>>codes and then it varies engine by engine as to specific results.
>>Also to time consuming and not able to make small enough adjustments
>>to be useful in winch launching. However an external system such
>>as Bill has proposed could tell the engine "give me more or give me
>>less". Until a system such as this is built and proven there is
>>no substitute for the human bean, er brain.
>>
>
>
> I have it on "pretty good" authority that these ECU's are simple to hack or
> reverse engineer. Several gray market operations have already done it and
> offer replacement ECU's with extensive user controls accessible through a
> serial port from a laptop running special software. The market demand seems
> to be coming from the participants in tractor pull competitions.
>
> I would tend to think that the maximum power setting of the ECU would be
> best used as a safety limit set to , say, 10% over the expected power
> demand. With 3000 + foot pounds of torque available on these large diesels,
> a winch driver sneeze at just the wrong time might produce interesting
> results. If we go to a "full authority" autolaunch system, having a
> separate power limiting safety net seems like a good idea.
>
> You know, there is another "feel good" thing about diesels. There is a
> rapidly expanding supply of renewable "biodiesel" fuel whose source is
> vegetable oils produced domestically. Since CO2 went into growing the crop
> that produced the oil, releasing it back into the atmosphere results in no
> net increase in atmospheric CO2. With biodiesel fuel, a diesel runs
> better, lasts longer and sure smells better. It's a little more expensive
> than petroleum based diesel but at .4 liters of fuel per launch, you aren't
> going to use much of it.
>
> Bill Daniels
>
Bill, I know one of the sources of raw material for biodiesel is
useddeep-frier grease. What a great way to get teenagers into the
sport. They follow the smell of french fries and find gliders instead!

Cheers,
Shawn

[Bill Daniels]

"Bob Korves" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bill Daniels" > wrote in message
> ...
> > demand. With 3000 + foot pounds of torque available on these large
> diesels,
>
> 3000+ foot pounds?? Bill, you really are talking "big"! Is that just in
> case a Horsa, CG-4a, or Gotha 242 shows up looking for a tow?
>

Yes, well, I had been reading the specs for the CAT 3408 which is kinda
overkill.

Bill Daniels

[Craig Freeman]

(Marcel Duenner) wrote in message >...
> Marc Ramsey > wrote in message >...
> > Martin Gregorie wrote:
> > > If you have a diesel driving through a fluid flywheel you don't need
> > > that much power: we have a Supacat with a 245 hp Deutz V8 aircooled
> > > industrial diesel and torque converter (no gearbox). This can launch
> > > an ASH-25 or just about any Nimbus. With a 15 m glider, K-21 or Grob
> > > you'd expect 1200-1400 ft on a 1000m run in calm conditions and over
> > > 2000 ft if its blowing a bit.
> >
> > I think the difference is that Bill is considering operating at much
> > higher density altitudes. In the western US, there are many glider
> > operations where summer density altitudes are in the 8000+ foot range.
> >
> > Marc
>
>
> So?
> Our setup: 222kW (300hp) turbocharged diesel, 6 drums, 1000m of steel
> cable. This winch has handled everything including a 4DM. Even a
> slight tailwind and a ASH25 are no real problem.
> Samedan, the highest airport in Europe at over 5600ft MSL, has the
> same winch with four drums. No problems at all. It's heaven compared
> to the voluminous petrol monster they had before.

Just wondering if they had yanked out the engine in the "voluminous
petrol monster" and replaced it with some diesel engine would
they have had a "voluminous diesel monster" or would it have been
"heaven"? Point is there is much more to consider than just powerplant
when it comes to judging a machine. Chances are there are other things
to consider, like drivetrains, drums, to level wind or not, operator
comfort, control panels, comunications, cooling systems, maintainence,
portability, availability of parts, ect. ect. ect.

Craig-
> BTW these winches use an average of 0.4 litres of Diesel per launch.

[Bill Daniels]

"Craig Freeman" > wrote in message
> > So?
> > Our setup: 222kW (300hp) turbocharged diesel, 6 drums, 1000m of steel
> > cable. This winch has handled everything including a 4DM. Even a
> > slight tailwind and a ASH25 are no real problem.
> > Samedan, the highest airport in Europe at over 5600ft MSL, has the
> > same winch with four drums. No problems at all. It's heaven compared
> > to the voluminous petrol monster they had before.
>
> Just wondering if they had yanked out the engine in the "voluminous
> petrol monster" and replaced it with some diesel engine would
> they have had a "voluminous diesel monster" or would it have been
> "heaven"? Point is there is much more to consider than just powerplant
> when it comes to judging a machine. Chances are there are other things
> to consider, like drivetrains, drums, to level wind or not, operator
> comfort, control panels, comunications, cooling systems, maintainence,
> portability, availability of parts, ect. ect. ect.
>
> Craig-
> > BTW these winches use an average of 0.4 litres of Diesel per launch.

Credit where credit is due.

Craig Freeman has actually built a winch - a damn good one - all by himself.
He gets my attention.

Bill Daniels

[Ged McKnight]

Sorry guys

But I think you are all looking in the wrong direction
re diesel winch launches......

I have read the previous 40 something posts on this
subject but no one has mentioned the LPG route, gives
both the acceleration of petrol with the cost savings
of diesel.


www.skylaunch.co.uk is a web site of a manufacturer
of a petrol/LPG driven winch of which I can give a
personal recomendation of being the best winch I have
operated over the last 25 years, as I have flown mainly
from winch sites then I consider myself an expert (
ex as in has been and spert as something under pressure)
I also am expecting at least a bottle of single malt
from my 'friends' at skylaunch ;-))

Ged




At 20:30 21 March 2004, Bill Daniels wrote:
>
>'Craig Freeman' wrote in message
>> > So?
>> > Our setup: 222kW (300hp) turbocharged diesel, 6 drums,
>>>1000m of steel
>> > cable. This winch has handled everything including
>>>a 4DM. Even a
>> > slight tailwind and a ASH25 are no real problem.
>> > Samedan, the highest airport in Europe at over 5600ft
>>>MSL, has the
>> > same winch with four drums. No problems at all. It's
>>>heaven compared
>> > to the voluminous petrol monster they had before.
>>
>> Just wondering if they had yanked out the engine in
>>the 'voluminous
>> petrol monster' and replaced it with some diesel engine
>>would
>> they have had a 'voluminous diesel monster' or would
>>it have been
>> 'heaven'? Point is there is much more to consider
>>than just powerplant
>> when it comes to judging a machine. Chances are there
>>are other things
>> to consider, like drivetrains, drums, to level wind
>>or not, operator
>> comfort, control panels, comunications, cooling systems,
>>maintainence,
>> portability, availability of parts, ect. ect. ect.
>>
>> Craig-
>> > BTW these winches use an average of 0.4 litres of
>>>Diesel per launch.
>
>Credit where credit is due.
>
>Craig Freeman has actually built a winch - a damn good
>one - all by himself.
>He gets my attention.
>
>Bill Daniels
>
>

[Robin Birch]

I second this. My club (Cotswold) has used reverse auto tow, then
Skylaunch. I have flown recently using Supercat. The Skylaunch wins
hand down in both height and reliability/consistency. I also have a
fair amount of experience driving the Skylaunch and know that it is very
flexible and allows good control of light gliders (Ka8), gliders with a
narrow speed range (SHK) and heavy beasts ASH and so on.

LPG also works well in terms of cost and refuelling.

Regards

Robin

In message >, Ged McKnight
> writes
>Sorry guys
>
>But I think you are all looking in the wrong direction
>re diesel winch launches......
>
>I have read the previous 40 something posts on this
>subject but no one has mentioned the LPG route, gives
>both the acceleration of petrol with the cost savings
>of diesel.
>
>
>www.skylaunch.co.uk is a web site of a manufacturer
>of a petrol/LPG driven winch of which I can give a
>personal recomendation of being the best winch I have
>operated over the last 25 years, as I have flown mainly
>from winch sites then I consider myself an expert (
>ex as in has been and spert as something under pressure)
> I also am expecting at least a bottle of single malt
>from my 'friends' at skylaunch ;-))
>
>Ged
>
>
>
>
>At 20:30 21 March 2004, Bill Daniels wrote:
>>
>>'Craig Freeman' wrote in message
>>> > So?
>>> > Our setup: 222kW (300hp) turbocharged diesel, 6 drums,
>>>>1000m of steel
>>> > cable. This winch has handled everything including
>>>>a 4DM. Even a
>>> > slight tailwind and a ASH25 are no real problem.
>>> > Samedan, the highest airport in Europe at over 5600ft
>>>>MSL, has the
>>> > same winch with four drums. No problems at all. It's
>>>>heaven compared
>>> > to the voluminous petrol monster they had before.
>>>
>>> Just wondering if they had yanked out the engine in
>>>the 'voluminous
>>> petrol monster' and replaced it with some diesel engine
>>>would
>>> they have had a 'voluminous diesel monster' or would
>>>it have been
>>> 'heaven'? Point is there is much more to consider
>>>than just powerplant
>>> when it comes to judging a machine. Chances are there
>>>are other things
>>> to consider, like drivetrains, drums, to level wind
>>>or not, operator
>>> comfort, control panels, comunications, cooling systems,
>>>maintainence,
>>> portability, availability of parts, ect. ect. ect.
>>>
>>> Craig-
>>> > BTW these winches use an average of 0.4 litres of
>>>>Diesel per launch.
>>
>>Credit where credit is due.
>>
>>Craig Freeman has actually built a winch - a damn good
>>one - all by himself.
>>He gets my attention.
>>
>>Bill Daniels
>>
>>
>
>
>

--
Robin Birch

[Bill Daniels]

Robin, Ged, for the UK, LPG is the right choice.

In the USA LPG or propane is still used mainly for domestic heating and
cooking and is sold for that purpose. To convert a spark ignition engine to
LPG is an extra $3000 or so and then fuel availability becomes an issue. It
can be done and it would work as well here as in the UK but there's no cost
reason to do it since LPG costs about the same or greater than petrol.

Diesels are reasonably cheap here and the fuel is readily available as
untaxed "red diesel" for as little as $1 per gallon. Biodiesel is a bit
more. In the USA fuel cost for a glider winch is a non-issue contributing
as little as $0.10 per launch. The "big" consumable item in the launch cost
is cable replacement at about $1 per launch. I like turbo diesels mainly
for their flat torque curve and the altitude compensation.

Not related to winches, but I once watched a demonstration of running a
standby diesel generator on natural gas. Basically, they just piped the
natural gas into the engine's air inlet. When they opened the natural gas
valve, the engine governor cut back on the diesel fuel to compensate for the
extra BTU's from the natural gas. The small amount of diesel fuel still
consumed was just for ignition.

Bill Daniels


"Robin Birch" > wrote in message
...
> I second this. My club (Cotswold) has used reverse auto tow, then
> Skylaunch. I have flown recently using Supercat. The Skylaunch wins
> hand down in both height and reliability/consistency. I also have a
> fair amount of experience driving the Skylaunch and know that it is very
> flexible and allows good control of light gliders (Ka8), gliders with a
> narrow speed range (SHK) and heavy beasts ASH and so on.
>
> LPG also works well in terms of cost and refuelling.
>
> Regards
>
> Robin
>
> In message >, Ged McKnight
> > writes
> >Sorry guys
> >
> >But I think you are all looking in the wrong direction
> >re diesel winch launches......
> >
> >I have read the previous 40 something posts on this
> >subject but no one has mentioned the LPG route, gives
> >both the acceleration of petrol with the cost savings
> >of diesel.
> >
> >
> >www.skylaunch.co.uk is a web site of a manufacturer
> >of a petrol/LPG driven winch of which I can give a
> >personal recomendation of being the best winch I have
> >operated over the last 25 years, as I have flown mainly
> >from winch sites then I consider myself an expert (
> >ex as in has been and spert as something under pressure)
> > I also am expecting at least a bottle of single malt
> >from my 'friends' at skylaunch ;-))
> >
> >Ged
> >

[W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).]

The petrol(gasoline)/propane winches at the Midland Club, Long Mynd were
bought new already converted for use with propane. They are large block
General Motors engines intended for marine use, where I understand propane
engines are common. I am practically certain that Skylaunch use the same
engines.

The advantage of petrol(gasoline)/propane engines does not lie only with
fuel cost. The engine itself is cheaper, and it is lighter in weight and
more compact. This means that the whole winch is smaller, lighter and more
compact. The Skylaunch can be towed legally on the road by any decent
4 X4, whereas the Supacat and all the other diesel winches I have seen can
only be moved on the back of a truck, or have to be built onto a truck
chassis. Changing the engine or working on it is also much easier.

Lastly it is much easier to arrange good throttle control and response with
a petrol/propane engine. One important special feature of the Skylaunch is
the throttle arrangement to help the driver get the correct setting for
different gliders and different conditions, the universal experience is that
this works really well.

If there is no cost advantage with propane, all the other reasons for
choosing petrol(gasoline) still apply. I know nothing about altitude
compensation, the Long Mynd is the highest club in the U.K. at
1,400 ft. a.s.l.

The normal size wire used in the U.K. seems to be 4.5 mm, some clubs use
5 mm.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.

>
> "Bill Daniels" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> Robin, Ged, for the UK, LPG is the right choice.
>
> In the USA LPG or propane is still used mainly for domestic heating and
> cooking and is sold for that purpose. To convert a spark ignition engine
> to LPG is an extra $3000 or so and then fuel availability becomes an
> issue. It can be done and it would work as well here as in the UK but
> there's no cost reason to do it since LPG costs about the same or greater
> than petrol.
>
> Diesels are reasonably cheap here and the fuel is readily available as
> untaxed "red diesel" for as little as $1 per gallon. Biodiesel is a bit
> more. In the USA fuel cost for a glider winch is a non-issue
> contributing as little as $0.10 per launch. The "big" consumable item in
> the launch cost is cable replacement at about $1 per launch. I like
> turbo diesels mainly for their flat torque curve and the altitude
> compensation.
>
> Not related to winches, but I once watched a demonstration of running a
> standby diesel generator on natural gas. Basically, they just piped the
> natural gas into the engine's air inlet. When they opened the natural
> gas valve, the engine governor cut back on the diesel fuel to compensate
> for the extra BTU's from the natural gas. The small amount of diesel
> fuel still consumed was just for ignition.
>
> Bill Daniels
>
> >
> > "Robin Birch" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > I second this. My club (Cotswold) has used reverse auto tow, then
> > Skylaunch. I have flown recently using Supercat. The Skylaunch wins
> > hand down in both height and reliability/consistency. I also have a
> > fair amount of experience driving the Skylaunch and know that it is very
> > flexible and allows good control of light gliders (Ka8), gliders with a
> > narrow speed range (SHK) and heavy beasts ASH and so on.
> >
> > LPG also works well in terms of cost and refuelling.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Robin
> >
> > >
> > > In message >, Ged McKnight
> > > > writes
> > >
> > >Sorry guys
> > >
> > >But I think you are all looking in the wrong direction
> > >re diesel winch launches......
> > >
> > >I have read the previous 40 something posts on this
> > >subject but no one has mentioned the LPG route, gives
> > >both the acceleration of petrol with the cost savings
> > >of diesel.
> > >
> > >
> > >www.skylaunch.co.uk is a web site of a manufacturer
> > >of a petrol/LPG driven winch of which I can give a
> > >personal recommendation of being the best winch I have
> > >operated over the last 25 years, as I have flown mainly
> > >from winch sites then I consider myself an expert (
> > >ex as in has been and spert as something under pressure)
> > > I also am expecting at least a bottle of single malt
> > >from my 'friends' at skylaunch ;-))
> > >
> > >Ged
> > >
> >
>

[Craig Freeman]

"Bob Korves" > wrote in message >...
> "Craig Freeman" > wrote in message
> om...
> >
> > True today's electronic can be programed to various power outputs.
> > However it is not possible to do this in a way that would be useful
> > in the winch application. At least not through the engines computer.
> > To reprogram the engine you first have to be trained and then have
> > access to the OEM codes. Only dealers and certified shops get these
> > codes and then it varies engine by engine as to specific results.
> > Also to time consuming and not able to make small enough adjustments
> > to be useful in winch launching. However an external system such
> > as Bill has proposed could tell the engine "give me more or give me
> > less". Until a system such as this is built and proven there is
> > no substitute for the human bean, er brain.
> >
> > Craig-
>
> I am a parts person at an International Trucks (Navistar) dealer. We are
> full service dealers for International, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, and
> Caterpillar engines. It is certainly possible to reprogram the ECU's of
> these diesels. We do it every day. Simple and easy enough for high school
> drop outs to do. I sell the software for reprogramming the engines. Shrink
> wrap stuff, just like at the computer store. That said, it would probably
> be possible to just replace the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor, "electronic
> foot pedal") with a microprocessor circuit and get the thing to do what you
> need. I am not a computer nerd, so I don't know the details...
> -Bob Korves


I still hear too many stories from truck owners, (my company services
around 2000 trucks a month) that say after reprograming their rig at
the dealer something was not right and it had to be done again. Believe
me I understand that some of them don't even know what is under the
hood of their K Whopper or Petercar but some do know a great deal.
The excess of 100 years of experience which my store managers have,
all certified deisel mechanics and former shop foreman's and service
writers with one the big three engine manufacturers, say yes we can
reprogram but results vary engine to engine and the only way to
know exactly what you have is to put it on the dyno. It will
probably be close but maybe not close enough for this application.
Maybe the tractor pull guys have it all figured out.
I wish to redirect your attention to the original proposition.
"to come up with a design for a safe, reliable, and cost effective
winch, which could be built by a group of amateurs in the USA
using commercially available parts without a whole lot of
modifications". I think that is a worthwhile goal and in the near
future some US clubs might begin to take advantage of such a design.
By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
build a winch if such a design were presented? If not, we should
probably just go flying. Come on down Bill, I'll bet you dinner
I can snap your head back in that big ole heavy glider you are
flying too. Be sure and bring a heavy link with you.

Craig-

[Craig Freeman]

"Bob Korves" > wrote in message >...
> "Craig Freeman" > wrote in message
> om...
> >
> > True today's electronic can be programed to various power outputs.
> > However it is not possible to do this in a way that would be useful
> > in the winch application. At least not through the engines computer.
> > To reprogram the engine you first have to be trained and then have
> > access to the OEM codes. Only dealers and certified shops get these
> > codes and then it varies engine by engine as to specific results.
> > Also to time consuming and not able to make small enough adjustments
> > to be useful in winch launching. However an external system such
> > as Bill has proposed could tell the engine "give me more or give me
> > less". Until a system such as this is built and proven there is
> > no substitute for the human bean, er brain.
> >
> > Craig-
>
> I am a parts person at an International Trucks (Navistar) dealer. We are
> full service dealers for International, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, and
> Caterpillar engines. It is certainly possible to reprogram the ECU's of
> these diesels. We do it every day. Simple and easy enough for high school
> drop outs to do. I sell the software for reprogramming the engines. Shrink
> wrap stuff, just like at the computer store. That said, it would probably
> be possible to just replace the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor, "electronic
> foot pedal") with a microprocessor circuit and get the thing to do what you
> need. I am not a computer nerd, so I don't know the details...
> -Bob Korves


I still hear too many stories from truck owners, (my company services
around 2000 trucks a month) that say after reprograming their rig at
the dealer something was not right and it had to be done again. Believe
me I understand that some of them don't even know what is under the
hood of their K Whopper or Petercar but some do know a great deal.
The excess of 100 years of experience which my store managers have,
all certified deisel mechanics and former shop foreman's and service
writers with one the big three engine manufacturers, say yes we can
reprogram but results vary engine to engine and the only way to
know exactly what you have is to put it on the dyno. It will
probably be close but maybe not close enough for this application.
Maybe the tractor pull guys have it all figured out.
I wish to redirect your attention to the original proposition.
"to come up with a design for a safe, reliable, and cost effective
winch, which could be built by a group of amateurs in the USA
using commercially available parts without a whole lot of
modifications". I think that is a worthwhile goal and in the near
future some US clubs might begin to take advantage of such a design.
By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
build a winch if such a design were presented? If not, we should
probably just go flying. Come on down Bill, I'll bet you dinner
I can snap your head back in that big ole heavy glider you are
flying too. Be sure and bring a heavy link with you.

Craig-

[Marc Ramsey]

Craig Freeman wrote:
> By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
> build a winch if such a design were presented?

I'd build one, but with the constraint that it can be built on a trailer
that can be pulled by a mid-size pickup or SUV (under 4000 lbs. total).
Anything larger, or built on a truck is, in my opinion, not practical
for anything other than primarily fixed site usage.

Marc

[F.L. Whiteley]

Or chicken here in the US;^)

According to last Sunday's paper, a lot of acreage near here (Greeley,
Colorado) is going into mustard seed for bio-diesel production.

Frank Whiteley

"tango4" > wrote in message
...
> Have you ever smelt a diesel running on used vegetable oil?
>
> It's just like standing in the local Fish and Chip shop!
>
> Ian
>
> "Bill Daniels" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Craig Freeman" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > (Ulrich Neumann) wrote in message
> > >...
> > > > Bruce and Bill,
> > > >
> > > > these were very insightful contribution to this subject. I think
that
> > > > nobody in his right mind would set out to purposely build an
> > > > underpowered winch. I think you cannot have too much power, as long
as
> > > > it is controlable. The ECU's of modern big rig diesels would allow
you
> > > > to have a preset power setting for each glider with an available
> > > > override.
> > >
> > > True today's electronic can be programed to various power outputs.
> > > However it is not possible to do this in a way that would be useful
> > > in the winch application. At least not through the engines computer.
> > > To reprogram the engine you first have to be trained and then have
> > > access to the OEM codes. Only dealers and certified shops get these
> > > codes and then it varies engine by engine as to specific results.
> > > Also to time consuming and not able to make small enough adjustments
> > > to be useful in winch launching. However an external system such
> > > as Bill has proposed could tell the engine "give me more or give me
> > > less". Until a system such as this is built and proven there is
> > > no substitute for the human bean, er brain.
> > >
> >
> > I have it on "pretty good" authority that these ECU's are simple to hack
> or
> > reverse engineer. Several gray market operations have already done it
and
> > offer replacement ECU's with extensive user controls accessible through
a
> > serial port from a laptop running special software. The market demand
> seems
> > to be coming from the participants in tractor pull competitions.
> >
> > I would tend to think that the maximum power setting of the ECU would be
> > best used as a safety limit set to , say, 10% over the expected power
> > demand. With 3000 + foot pounds of torque available on these large
> diesels,
> > a winch driver sneeze at just the wrong time might produce interesting
> > results. If we go to a "full authority" autolaunch system, having a
> > separate power limiting safety net seems like a good idea.
> >
> > You know, there is another "feel good" thing about diesels. There is a
> > rapidly expanding supply of renewable "biodiesel" fuel whose source is
> > vegetable oils produced domestically. Since CO2 went into growing the
> crop
> > that produced the oil, releasing it back into the atmosphere results in
no
> > net increase in atmospheric CO2. With biodiesel fuel, a diesel runs
> > better, lasts longer and sure smells better. It's a little more
expensive
> > than petroleum based diesel but at .4 liters of fuel per launch, you
> aren't
> > going to use much of it.
> >
> > Bill Daniels
> >
>
>

[Marcel Duenner]

Eric Greenwell > wrote in message >...
> Marcel Duenner wrote:
>
>
> > So?
> > Our setup: 222kW (300hp) turbocharged diesel, 6 drums, 1000m of steel
> > cable. This winch has handled everything including a 4DM. Even a
> > slight tailwind and a ASH25 are no real problem.
> > Samedan, the highest airport in Europe at over 5600ft MSL, has the
> > same winch with four drums. No problems at all. It's heaven compared
> > to the voluminous petrol monster they had before.
> > BTW these winches use an average of 0.4 litres of Diesel per launch.
>
> How much petrol per launch did the previous winch use? Is there a big
> price difference between the two fuels?

Don't know about theirs. The winch we had before this one was a 380hp
GM Engine, built about 1964. We used just under 1 litre of petrol with
that. Yes, they really swallow a lot at over 4000rpm.
Price difference between the two fuels is marginal here in
Switzerland, diesel being a bit more expensive most of the time. All
around us Diesel is much cheaper than Petrol.
Keep in mind that fuel prices in Europe are about four times the US
prices.
Also, as someone else already posted, fuel price is only one of many
things adding to the total launch cost.

[Craig Freeman]

(Craig Freeman) wrote in message >...
> "Bob Korves" > wrote in message >...
> > "Craig Freeman" > wrote in message

> >
> > I am a parts person at an International Trucks (Navistar) dealer. We are
> > full service dealers for International, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, and
> > Caterpillar engines. It is certainly possible to reprogram the ECU's of
> > these diesels. We do it every day. Simple and easy enough for high school
> > drop outs to do. I sell the software for reprogramming the engines. Shrink
> > wrap stuff, just like at the computer store. That said, it would probably
> > be possible to just replace the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor, "electronic
> > foot pedal") with a microprocessor circuit and get the thing to do what you
> > need. I am not a computer nerd, so I don't know the details...
> > -Bob Korves
>
>
> I still hear too many stories from truck owners, (my company services
> around 2000 trucks a month) that say after reprograming their rig at
> the dealer something was not right and it had to be done again. Believe
> me I understand that some of them don't even know what is under the
> hood of their K Whopper or Petercar but some do know a great deal.
> The excess of 100 years of experience which my store managers have,
> all certified deisel mechanics and former shop foreman's and service
> writers with one the big three engine manufacturers, say yes we can
> reprogram but results vary engine to engine and the only way to
> know exactly what you have is to put it on the dyno. It will
> probably be close but maybe not close enough for this application.
> Maybe the tractor pull guys have it all figured out.
> I wish to redirect your attention to the original proposition.
> "to come up with a design for a safe, reliable, and cost effective
> winch, which could be built by a group of amateurs in the USA
> using commercially available parts without a whole lot of
> modifications". I think that is a worthwhile goal and in the near
> future some US clubs might begin to take advantage of such a design.
> By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
> build a winch if such a design were presented? If not, we should
> probably just go flying. Come on down Bill, I'll bet you dinner
> I can snap your head back in that big ole heavy glider you are
> flying too. Be sure and bring a heavy link with you.
>
> Craig-

After more investigation I have the following which may help
carify the engine reprogramming discussion. Cummins, at least,
does sell disks which allow the owner to reprogram the ECU's of
their engines. However these disks allow only for the setting of
the peimeters of the engine. Examples are, top idle speed, idle
shut down, auto jake brake, but not HP and torque. When you change
HP and torque outputs it's called "recallibration" and these codes
are locked up by the OEM's and are not sold. Now for the good
news, there are aftermarket hackers selling "recallibration" codes
available for late model midsize diesels. Motorhome and diesel
pickup owners looking for more power are driving this industry.
It voids any warrenty of course but what a small price to pay
when you could get a tire smokin' dually one ton four door. YeeeHaa!!
I have a connection with one rather large aftermarket designer and
retailer. We have posed the question to him if he could build a
platform of codes which could increase HP in say 5 to 10 percent
increments and be able to input quickly from a laptop. One concern
is to select a engine which is designed to perform within the hp
range needed. We don't need to soup up a engine just control it's
output. Trying to detune a very large diesel has its own complications.

Craig-

[Craig Freeman]

Marc Ramsey > wrote in message >...
> Craig Freeman wrote:
> > By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
> > build a winch if such a design were presented?
>
> I'd build one, but with the constraint that it can be built on a trailer
> that can be pulled by a mid-size pickup or SUV (under 4000 lbs. total).
> Anything larger, or built on a truck is, in my opinion, not practical
> for anything other than primarily fixed site usage.
>
> Marc

That's one. I got the portable under 4000 lbs covered. What other
things would you like to see. One drum, two, three, ten? Do you
have a budget in mind? What tools do you have available? How much
time do you have?

Craig-

[Bill Daniels]

"Craig Freeman" > wrote in message >
> After more investigation I have the following which may help
> carify the engine reprogramming discussion. Cummins, at least,
> does sell disks which allow the owner to reprogram the ECU's of
> their engines. However these disks allow only for the setting of
> the peimeters of the engine. Examples are, top idle speed, idle
> shut down, auto jake brake, but not HP and torque. When you change
> HP and torque outputs it's called "recallibration" and these codes
> are locked up by the OEM's and are not sold. Now for the good
> news, there are aftermarket hackers selling "recallibration" codes
> available for late model midsize diesels. Motorhome and diesel
> pickup owners looking for more power are driving this industry.
> It voids any warrenty of course but what a small price to pay
> when you could get a tire smokin' dually one ton four door. YeeeHaa!!
> I have a connection with one rather large aftermarket designer and
> retailer. We have posed the question to him if he could build a
> platform of codes which could increase HP in say 5 to 10 percent
> increments and be able to input quickly from a laptop. One concern
> is to select a engine which is designed to perform within the hp
> range needed. We don't need to soup up a engine just control it's
> output. Trying to detune a very large diesel has its own complications.
>
> Craig-

Craig, that's good enough for me. I wouldn't want to control the diesel
with the ECU hack, just use it as a safety limit on torque output. The idea
is to make sure that if the autothrottle went haywire or a ham handed winch
driver turned the wick up too far there would be no danger of damaging a
glider.

Bill Daniels

[Bill Daniels]

"Craig Freeman" > wrote in message
om...
> (Craig Freeman) wrote in message
>...
> > "Bob Korves" > wrote in message
>...
> > > "Craig Freeman" > wrote in message
>
> > >
> > > I am a parts person at an International Trucks (Navistar) dealer. We
are
> > > full service dealers for International, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, and
> > > Caterpillar engines. It is certainly possible to reprogram the ECU's
of
> > > these diesels. We do it every day. Simple and easy enough for high
school
> > > drop outs to do. I sell the software for reprogramming the engines.
Shrink
> > > wrap stuff, just like at the computer store. That said, it would
probably
> > > be possible to just replace the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor,
"electronic
> > > foot pedal") with a microprocessor circuit and get the thing to do
what you
> > > need. I am not a computer nerd, so I don't know the details...
> > > -Bob Korves
> >
> >
> > I still hear too many stories from truck owners, (my company services
> > around 2000 trucks a month) that say after reprograming their rig at
> > the dealer something was not right and it had to be done again. Believe
> > me I understand that some of them don't even know what is under the
> > hood of their K Whopper or Petercar but some do know a great deal.
> > The excess of 100 years of experience which my store managers have,
> > all certified deisel mechanics and former shop foreman's and service
> > writers with one the big three engine manufacturers, say yes we can
> > reprogram but results vary engine to engine and the only way to
> > know exactly what you have is to put it on the dyno. It will
> > probably be close but maybe not close enough for this application.
> > Maybe the tractor pull guys have it all figured out.
> > I wish to redirect your attention to the original proposition.
> > "to come up with a design for a safe, reliable, and cost effective
> > winch, which could be built by a group of amateurs in the USA
> > using commercially available parts without a whole lot of
> > modifications". I think that is a worthwhile goal and in the near
> > future some US clubs might begin to take advantage of such a design.
> > By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
> > build a winch if such a design were presented? If not, we should
> > probably just go flying. Come on down Bill, I'll bet you dinner
> > I can snap your head back in that big ole heavy glider you are
> > flying too. Be sure and bring a heavy link with you.
> >
> > Craig-
>
> After more investigation I have the following which may help
> carify the engine reprogramming discussion. Cummins, at least,
> does sell disks which allow the owner to reprogram the ECU's of
> their engines. However these disks allow only for the setting of
> the peimeters of the engine. Examples are, top idle speed, idle
> shut down, auto jake brake, but not HP and torque. When you change
> HP and torque outputs it's called "recallibration" and these codes
> are locked up by the OEM's and are not sold. Now for the good
> news, there are aftermarket hackers selling "recallibration" codes
> available for late model midsize diesels. Motorhome and diesel
> pickup owners looking for more power are driving this industry.
> It voids any warrenty of course but what a small price to pay
> when you could get a tire smokin' dually one ton four door. YeeeHaa!!
> I have a connection with one rather large aftermarket designer and
> retailer. We have posed the question to him if he could build a
> platform of codes which could increase HP in say 5 to 10 percent
> increments and be able to input quickly from a laptop. One concern
> is to select a engine which is designed to perform within the hp
> range needed. We don't need to soup up a engine just control it's
> output. Trying to detune a very large diesel has its own complications.
>
> Craig-

Craig, define "midsize diesel". Would a Cummins N14 qualify?

Bill Daniels

[Littleboy]

In article >,
says...
> (Craig Freeman) wrote in message >...
> > "Bob Korves" > wrote in message >...
> > > "Craig Freeman" > wrote in message
>
> > >
> > > I am a parts person at an International Trucks (Navistar) dealer. We are
> > > full service dealers for International, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, and
> > > Caterpillar engines. It is certainly possible to reprogram the ECU's of
> > > these diesels. We do it every day. Simple and easy enough for high school
> > > drop outs to do. I sell the software for reprogramming the engines. Shrink
> > > wrap stuff, just like at the computer store. That said, it would probably
> > > be possible to just replace the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor, "electronic
> > > foot pedal") with a microprocessor circuit and get the thing to do what you
> > > need. I am not a computer nerd, so I don't know the details...
> > > -Bob Korves
> >
> >
> > I still hear too many stories from truck owners, (my company services
> > around 2000 trucks a month) that say after reprograming their rig at
> > the dealer something was not right and it had to be done again. Believe
> > me I understand that some of them don't even know what is under the
> > hood of their K Whopper or Petercar but some do know a great deal.
> > The excess of 100 years of experience which my store managers have,
> > all certified deisel mechanics and former shop foreman's and service
> > writers with one the big three engine manufacturers, say yes we can
> > reprogram but results vary engine to engine and the only way to
> > know exactly what you have is to put it on the dyno. It will
> > probably be close but maybe not close enough for this application.
> > Maybe the tractor pull guys have it all figured out.
> > I wish to redirect your attention to the original proposition.
> > "to come up with a design for a safe, reliable, and cost effective
> > winch, which could be built by a group of amateurs in the USA
> > using commercially available parts without a whole lot of
> > modifications". I think that is a worthwhile goal and in the near
> > future some US clubs might begin to take advantage of such a design.
> > By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
> > build a winch if such a design were presented? If not, we should
> > probably just go flying. Come on down Bill, I'll bet you dinner
> > I can snap your head back in that big ole heavy glider you are
> > flying too. Be sure and bring a heavy link with you.
> >
> > Craig-
>
> After more investigation I have the following which may help
> carify the engine reprogramming discussion. Cummins, at least,
> does sell disks which allow the owner to reprogram the ECU's of
> their engines. However these disks allow only for the setting of
> the peimeters of the engine. Examples are, top idle speed, idle
> shut down, auto jake brake, but not HP and torque. When you change
> HP and torque outputs it's called "recallibration" and these codes
> are locked up by the OEM's and are not sold. Now for the good
> news, there are aftermarket hackers selling "recallibration" codes
> available for late model midsize diesels. Motorhome and diesel
> pickup owners looking for more power are driving this industry.
> It voids any warrenty of course but what a small price to pay
> when you could get a tire smokin' dually one ton four door. YeeeHaa!!
> I have a connection with one rather large aftermarket designer and
> retailer. We have posed the question to him if he could build a
> platform of codes which could increase HP in say 5 to 10 percent
> increments and be able to input quickly from a laptop. One concern
> is to select a engine which is designed to perform within the hp
> range needed. We don't need to soup up a engine just control it's
> output. Trying to detune a very large diesel has its own complications.
>
> Craig-
>
Just a lurker here, with great interest in soaring, but little
experience. However, I may have some expertise in the subject of this
thread.

If I had never seen a sailplane winch, a clean sheet as it were, the
winch I would design would be an engine (fuel makes little difference
at this stage) and generator. The drums would be powered by an
electric motor(s) via a variable speed drive(s). A variable speed
drive can be programmed and operated through a computer, with
virtually every parameter of motor operation infinitely variable.

For example, the parameters for every sailplane could be configured
for the drive and then it would be a simple mouse click to set all
the launch variables for any sailplane configuration.

You could get so slick with this. Maximum cable speed could be set.
Maximum acceleration rates could be set. Every conceivable parameter
could be set and modified in seconds. Man, it would be so cool.

And another nice thing about it? Everything is very reliable, long
lived, and reasonably priced on the used market.

And there ain't nothin' that pulls like an electric motor. Ever been
on a high speed electric train? They just pull and pull and pull.
Maximum torque at zero rpm.

A good engineer would have a field day with this. What a great
project this could be.

[Marc Ramsey]

Craig Freeman wrote:
> That's one. I got the portable under 4000 lbs covered. What other
> things would you like to see. One drum, two, three, ten?

I don't see need for more than two.

> Do you have a budget in mind?

$15000 or under would be great, $20000 is at the edge of making the
whole thing infeasible.

> What tools do you have available? How much
> time do you have?

My approach would be to pull together a group in Northern California and
Nevada to fund and construct it as a non-profit corporation. Tools,
skills, and time available would be dependent on who I could get to sign
on...

Marc

[Bill Daniels]

"Littleboy" > wrote in message
ews.com...
> In article >,
> says...
> > (Craig Freeman) wrote in message
>...
> > > "Bob Korves" > wrote in message
>...
> > > > "Craig Freeman" > wrote in message
> >
> > > >
> > > > I am a parts person at an International Trucks (Navistar) dealer.
We are
> > > > full service dealers for International, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, and
> > > > Caterpillar engines. It is certainly possible to reprogram the
ECU's of
> > > > these diesels. We do it every day. Simple and easy enough for high
school
> > > > drop outs to do. I sell the software for reprogramming the engines.
Shrink
> > > > wrap stuff, just like at the computer store. That said, it would
probably
> > > > be possible to just replace the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor,
"electronic
> > > > foot pedal") with a microprocessor circuit and get the thing to do
what you
> > > > need. I am not a computer nerd, so I don't know the details...
> > > > -Bob Korves
> > >
> > >
> > > I still hear too many stories from truck owners, (my company services
> > > around 2000 trucks a month) that say after reprograming their rig at
> > > the dealer something was not right and it had to be done again.
Believe
> > > me I understand that some of them don't even know what is under the
> > > hood of their K Whopper or Petercar but some do know a great deal.
> > > The excess of 100 years of experience which my store managers have,
> > > all certified deisel mechanics and former shop foreman's and service
> > > writers with one the big three engine manufacturers, say yes we can
> > > reprogram but results vary engine to engine and the only way to
> > > know exactly what you have is to put it on the dyno. It will
> > > probably be close but maybe not close enough for this application.
> > > Maybe the tractor pull guys have it all figured out.
> > > I wish to redirect your attention to the original proposition.
> > > "to come up with a design for a safe, reliable, and cost effective
> > > winch, which could be built by a group of amateurs in the USA
> > > using commercially available parts without a whole lot of
> > > modifications". I think that is a worthwhile goal and in the near
> > > future some US clubs might begin to take advantage of such a design.
> > > By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
> > > build a winch if such a design were presented? If not, we should
> > > probably just go flying. Come on down Bill, I'll bet you dinner
> > > I can snap your head back in that big ole heavy glider you are
> > > flying too. Be sure and bring a heavy link with you.
> > >
> > > Craig-
> >
> > After more investigation I have the following which may help
> > carify the engine reprogramming discussion. Cummins, at least,
> > does sell disks which allow the owner to reprogram the ECU's of
> > their engines. However these disks allow only for the setting of
> > the peimeters of the engine. Examples are, top idle speed, idle
> > shut down, auto jake brake, but not HP and torque. When you change
> > HP and torque outputs it's called "recallibration" and these codes
> > are locked up by the OEM's and are not sold. Now for the good
> > news, there are aftermarket hackers selling "recallibration" codes
> > available for late model midsize diesels. Motorhome and diesel
> > pickup owners looking for more power are driving this industry.
> > It voids any warrenty of course but what a small price to pay
> > when you could get a tire smokin' dually one ton four door. YeeeHaa!!
> > I have a connection with one rather large aftermarket designer and
> > retailer. We have posed the question to him if he could build a
> > platform of codes which could increase HP in say 5 to 10 percent
> > increments and be able to input quickly from a laptop. One concern
> > is to select a engine which is designed to perform within the hp
> > range needed. We don't need to soup up a engine just control it's
> > output. Trying to detune a very large diesel has its own complications.
> >
> > Craig-
> >
> Just a lurker here, with great interest in soaring, but little
> experience. However, I may have some expertise in the subject of this
> thread.
>
> If I had never seen a sailplane winch, a clean sheet as it were, the
> winch I would design would be an engine (fuel makes little difference
> at this stage) and generator. The drums would be powered by an
> electric motor(s) via a variable speed drive(s). A variable speed
> drive can be programmed and operated through a computer, with
> virtually every parameter of motor operation infinitely variable.
>
> For example, the parameters for every sailplane could be configured
> for the drive and then it would be a simple mouse click to set all
> the launch variables for any sailplane configuration.
>
> You could get so slick with this. Maximum cable speed could be set.
> Maximum acceleration rates could be set. Every conceivable parameter
> could be set and modified in seconds. Man, it would be so cool.
>
> And another nice thing about it? Everything is very reliable, long
> lived, and reasonably priced on the used market.
>
> And there ain't nothin' that pulls like an electric motor. Ever been
> on a high speed electric train? They just pull and pull and pull.
> Maximum torque at zero rpm.
>
> A good engineer would have a field day with this. What a great
> project this could be.
>
>
>

Google: "Elektrostartwinde ESW 2B" and use the German to English language
tools. Search further with "segelflug elektrowinde". These boys use 50 car
batteries recharging them from the mains or a diesel genset.

Take a look at: http://www.skylaunch.de/album/index.html for a album of
winch pictures.

Look at: http://www.dassu.de/Wir_uber_uns/Elektrowinde/elektrowinde.html for
a stationary electric winch.

Electric winches could be (are) everything you say. My initial
investigation indicated the cost was way too high, but then I'm far from an
expert on high power electric drive stuff. Read the web pages above and
post your opinions.

Bill Daniels

[Mark Zivley]

I've been reading all these posts w/ lots of interest. The basic winch
design is clearly fairly forgiving of specific design details due to the
number of cobbled together winches which are out there. Probably
hundreds worldwide.

Take a frame and a cab and add to that a powerful engine, transmission,
and some cable guides. All of this, while not easy, is straight forward
and parts are readily available for cheap depending on whether you want
to buy new (or rebuilt) or if you go scrounging for deals.

The one trick item that I see which could stand for some specific
development is a way to more effectively modify a rear axle off of a
vehicle so that you maintain a 3/1 ratio from the drive shaft yet can
positively disengage both wheels and then selectively engage either the
right wheel or the left wheel to achieve the dual drum winch.

There either needs to be a way to install a synchronizer type
transmission coupling between the differential and the wheel or
disengage the wheel at the end of the 1/2 shaft. This one part is the
only item that's not already designed for "us".

The Japanese are famous for copying designs which work well and then
continuing to improve upon them. Might as well start with something
that looks a lot like the Skylaunch since I think most of us would agree
that Skylaunch is probably the gold standard out there. Unfortunately,
with the current exchange rate a Skylaunch is well over $100,000 U.S.
Take that basic configuration, improve upon it, but keep it inexpensive.

This project should probably be moved to a slightly different forum like
a yahoo group where people interested in participating can do so without
filling up RAS. This also allows the sharing of files and even voting
on ideas as the project starts to take shape. We're definitely onto
something here, lets get started. We should start by doing some
deciding as to what will be designed. 1 or 2 or more drums.....

Mark

remove duplicate "hot" to reply direct

[Mark James Boyd]

Craig Freeman > wrote:
>Marc Ramsey > wrote
>> Craig Freeman wrote:
>> > By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
>> > build a winch if such a design were presented?
>>
>> I'd build one, but with the constraint that it can be built on a trailer
>> that can be pulled by a mid-size pickup or SUV (under 4000 lbs. total).
>> Anything larger, or built on a truck is, in my opinion, not practical
>> for anything other than primarily fixed site usage.

Portable sure sounds nice. Hmmm...saw a scooter version made from a
Yamaha 250 scooter, for hang gliders (way too little hp). Another idea
is a snowmobile. I wonder if the back axle would work as a winch <G>.
I've never driven one so I don't know if they're
automatic or manual...

I've seen a bunch of surplus 150 to 200 hp electric motors
for $3,000 to $5,000. Seems like a very logical choice (much cleaner,
easier to control, not as much fire danger, simple, etc.).
But definitely this is a fixed winch (and how does one get 500 volts and
100 amps for a power supply? At Avenal if it ran
the whole city might go dim ;) The 50 car batteries idea is only
$2,000 to $5,000 but one wonders if this and a generator isn't
silly instead of just power coming off a city line...
I dunno if this is easily possible, but I'll ask my brother
(he's a commercial electrician).

New electric motors in the same hp are about 5x to 10x as expensive.
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

[Dave Martin]

Unless a mass batteries are used, the logistic of supplying
power to several possible winch stations around and
airfield to provide a days winching seems very expensive,
although a 'plug in and play' system would be an ideal
way of operating.

Has anyone considered the use of 'Hydrostatic Pumps'

Using the main engine to drive a hydraulic compressing
pump, as used on mechanical diggers etc, a hydrostatic
pump on each individual drum would provide the power
to launch the glider.

It would remove the need for complex mechanics and
by a simple system of taps could drive any one of a
number of individual drums.

Using deep sided drums without pay on gear would reduce
build costs and time.

Building the winch on a trailer would be simple, mobile
and may be cheaper than using complex mechanical drives.
It would also be simple to maintain. I understand modern
pumps can be programmed and controlled electronically.


The main pumps can provide sufficient power as can
be seen on mechanical diggers, but they are only pumping
us a telescopic ram. I believe they are used on slow
moving agricultural equipment to provide drive to the
main wheels.

The question is could the pumps provide the power and
speed to drive a drum for several minutes to enable
a glider to be launched.

Similar pumps can be seen at

http://www.casappa.com/

Although I am sure they will be available throughout
the world.


Dave

[Aardvark]

Mark James Boyd wrote:
> Craig Freeman > wrote:
>
>>Marc Ramsey > wrote
>>
>>>Craig Freeman wrote:
>>>
>>>>By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
>>>>build a winch if such a design were presented?
>>>
>>>I'd build one, but with the constraint that it can be built on a trailer
>>>that can be pulled by a mid-size pickup or SUV (under 4000 lbs. total).
>>> Anything larger, or built on a truck is, in my opinion, not practical
>>>for anything other than primarily fixed site usage.
>
>
> Portable sure sounds nice. Hmmm...saw a scooter version made from a
> Yamaha 250 scooter, for hang gliders (way too little hp). Another idea
> is a snowmobile. I wonder if the back axle would work as a winch <G>.
> I've never driven one so I don't know if they're
> automatic or manual...
>
> I've seen a bunch of surplus 150 to 200 hp electric motors
> for $3,000 to $5,000. Seems like a very logical choice (much cleaner,
> easier to control, not as much fire danger, simple, etc.).
> But definitely this is a fixed winch (and how does one get 500 volts and
> 100 amps for a power supply? At Avenal if it ran
> the whole city might go dim ;) The 50 car batteries idea is only
> $2,000 to $5,000 but one wonders if this and a generator isn't
> silly instead of just power coming off a city line...
> I dunno if this is easily possible, but I'll ask my brother
> (he's a commercial electrician).
>
> New electric motors in the same hp are about 5x to 10x as expensive.
> --
>
> ------------+
> Mark Boyd
> Avenal, California, USA
I have seen EV Dragsters with electric forklift motors putting out 500
HP. Can pull a 3000 lb car Down the 1/4 mile in 14 or so sec.
Now where to get the 440 volts dc from :)

home built up to 70 mph, 50 to 100 mile range, 1000 foot lbs of torque
Lots of info here.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/messages/

[Bill Daniels]

"Aardvark" > wrote in message
. ..
> Mark James Boyd wrote:
> > Craig Freeman > wrote:
> >
> >>Marc Ramsey > wrote
> >>
> >>>Craig Freeman wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
> >>>>build a winch if such a design were presented?
> >>>
> >>>I'd build one, but with the constraint that it can be built on a
trailer
> >>>that can be pulled by a mid-size pickup or SUV (under 4000 lbs. total).
> >>> Anything larger, or built on a truck is, in my opinion, not
practical
> >>>for anything other than primarily fixed site usage.
> >
> >
> > Portable sure sounds nice. Hmmm...saw a scooter version made from a
> > Yamaha 250 scooter, for hang gliders (way too little hp). Another idea
> > is a snowmobile. I wonder if the back axle would work as a winch <G>.
> > I've never driven one so I don't know if they're
> > automatic or manual...
> >
> > I've seen a bunch of surplus 150 to 200 hp electric motors
> > for $3,000 to $5,000. Seems like a very logical choice (much cleaner,
> > easier to control, not as much fire danger, simple, etc.).
> > But definitely this is a fixed winch (and how does one get 500 volts and
> > 100 amps for a power supply? At Avenal if it ran
> > the whole city might go dim ;) The 50 car batteries idea is only
> > $2,000 to $5,000 but one wonders if this and a generator isn't
> > silly instead of just power coming off a city line...
> > I dunno if this is easily possible, but I'll ask my brother
> > (he's a commercial electrician).
> >
> > New electric motors in the same hp are about 5x to 10x as expensive.
> > --
> >
> > ------------+
> > Mark Boyd
> > Avenal, California, USA
> I have seen EV Dragsters with electric forklift motors putting out 500
> HP. Can pull a 3000 lb car Down the 1/4 mile in 14 or so sec.
> Now where to get the 440 volts dc from :)
>
> home built up to 70 mph, 50 to 100 mile range, 1000 foot lbs of torque
> Lots of info here.
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/messages/

Before you guys get too far into an electric winch design, look up
"Ultracapacitors". Basically these are huge electrical capacitors that can
charge and discharge at extremely high amperages. Maxwell Technologies in
San Diego that makes the best ones in the world.
http://www.maxwell.com/index.html

Use a small generator set to charge a bank of ultracaps, then dump the
accumulated charge into your 500HP forklift motor.

Bill Daniels
>

[Littleboy]

In article >,
says...
>
> "Littleboy" > wrote in message
> ews.com...
> > In article >,
> > says...
> > > (Craig Freeman) wrote in message
> >...
> > > > "Bob Korves" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > > > "Craig Freeman" > wrote in message
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I am a parts person at an International Trucks (Navistar) dealer.
> We are
> > > > > full service dealers for International, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, and
> > > > > Caterpillar engines. It is certainly possible to reprogram the
> ECU's of
> > > > > these diesels. We do it every day. Simple and easy enough for high
> school
> > > > > drop outs to do. I sell the software for reprogramming the engines.
> Shrink
> > > > > wrap stuff, just like at the computer store. That said, it would
> probably
> > > > > be possible to just replace the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor,
> "electronic
> > > > > foot pedal") with a microprocessor circuit and get the thing to do
> what you
> > > > > need. I am not a computer nerd, so I don't know the details...
> > > > > -Bob Korves
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I still hear too many stories from truck owners, (my company services
> > > > around 2000 trucks a month) that say after reprograming their rig at
> > > > the dealer something was not right and it had to be done again.
> Believe
> > > > me I understand that some of them don't even know what is under the
> > > > hood of their K Whopper or Petercar but some do know a great deal.
> > > > The excess of 100 years of experience which my store managers have,
> > > > all certified deisel mechanics and former shop foreman's and service
> > > > writers with one the big three engine manufacturers, say yes we can
> > > > reprogram but results vary engine to engine and the only way to
> > > > know exactly what you have is to put it on the dyno. It will
> > > > probably be close but maybe not close enough for this application.
> > > > Maybe the tractor pull guys have it all figured out.
> > > > I wish to redirect your attention to the original proposition.
> > > > "to come up with a design for a safe, reliable, and cost effective
> > > > winch, which could be built by a group of amateurs in the USA
> > > > using commercially available parts without a whole lot of
> > > > modifications". I think that is a worthwhile goal and in the near
> > > > future some US clubs might begin to take advantage of such a design.
> > > > By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
> > > > build a winch if such a design were presented? If not, we should
> > > > probably just go flying. Come on down Bill, I'll bet you dinner
> > > > I can snap your head back in that big ole heavy glider you are
> > > > flying too. Be sure and bring a heavy link with you.
> > > >
> > > > Craig-
> > >
> > > After more investigation I have the following which may help
> > > carify the engine reprogramming discussion. Cummins, at least,
> > > does sell disks which allow the owner to reprogram the ECU's of
> > > their engines. However these disks allow only for the setting of
> > > the peimeters of the engine. Examples are, top idle speed, idle
> > > shut down, auto jake brake, but not HP and torque. When you change
> > > HP and torque outputs it's called "recallibration" and these codes
> > > are locked up by the OEM's and are not sold. Now for the good
> > > news, there are aftermarket hackers selling "recallibration" codes
> > > available for late model midsize diesels. Motorhome and diesel
> > > pickup owners looking for more power are driving this industry.
> > > It voids any warrenty of course but what a small price to pay
> > > when you could get a tire smokin' dually one ton four door. YeeeHaa!!
> > > I have a connection with one rather large aftermarket designer and
> > > retailer. We have posed the question to him if he could build a
> > > platform of codes which could increase HP in say 5 to 10 percent
> > > increments and be able to input quickly from a laptop. One concern
> > > is to select a engine which is designed to perform within the hp
> > > range needed. We don't need to soup up a engine just control it's
> > > output. Trying to detune a very large diesel has its own complications.
> > >
> > > Craig-
> > >
> > Just a lurker here, with great interest in soaring, but little
> > experience. However, I may have some expertise in the subject of this
> > thread.
> >
> > If I had never seen a sailplane winch, a clean sheet as it were, the
> > winch I would design would be an engine (fuel makes little difference
> > at this stage) and generator. The drums would be powered by an
> > electric motor(s) via a variable speed drive(s). A variable speed
> > drive can be programmed and operated through a computer, with
> > virtually every parameter of motor operation infinitely variable.
> >
> > For example, the parameters for every sailplane could be configured
> > for the drive and then it would be a simple mouse click to set all
> > the launch variables for any sailplane configuration.
> >
> > You could get so slick with this. Maximum cable speed could be set.
> > Maximum acceleration rates could be set. Every conceivable parameter
> > could be set and modified in seconds. Man, it would be so cool.
> >
> > And another nice thing about it? Everything is very reliable, long
> > lived, and reasonably priced on the used market.
> >
> > And there ain't nothin' that pulls like an electric motor. Ever been
> > on a high speed electric train? They just pull and pull and pull.
> > Maximum torque at zero rpm.
> >
> > A good engineer would have a field day with this. What a great
> > project this could be.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Google: "Elektrostartwinde ESW 2B" and use the German to English language
> tools. Search further with "segelflug elektrowinde". These boys use 50 car
> batteries recharging them from the mains or a diesel genset.
>
> Take a look at: http://www.skylaunch.de/album/index.html for a album of
> winch pictures.
>
> Look at: http://www.dassu.de/Wir_uber_uns/Elektrowinde/elektrowinde.html for
> a stationary electric winch.
>
> Electric winches could be (are) everything you say. My initial
> investigation indicated the cost was way too high, but then I'm far from an
> expert on high power electric drive stuff. Read the web pages above and
> post your opinions.
>
> Bill Daniels
>
>
Thanks for the links. As I said, not having any experience with a
launch winch can be helpful because of a lack of preconceived notions
of what a winch should be. On the other hand, it can be a hindrance
because you don't have the benefit of other peoples successes and
failures.

As I wrote the original post I was trying to ballpark costs but still
don't have a design fleshed out enough for even a rough estimate. My
first inclination would be to look for used equipment. Given the
current U.S. economy, and businesses leaving the U.S. In the
Southeast and Northeast of the U.S., textile mills leaving should
have left a surplus of good used electrical equipment on the market.

Fabrication and steel costs probably would be the largest single
component of costs. I think the electrical components would run 2nd,
followed by power wiring, and then control wiring. Then there would
be the miscellaneous costs (I think a safe, habitable control cab
would be nice).

One of the German sites animated the electrical equivilant of their
diesel winch at 1.5kWh. In the U.S. that would be about $0.15. They
used about 0.5l of diesel per launch. Cost today in the U.S. would be
about $0.25. I don't know how many launches a typical club could see
in a day, but I think one would have to figure in increased launch
efficiencies of winch vs. aerotow. Someone should have a good figure
for this.

One club is using a 330HP engine. That would lead me to believe a
200/250HP electric motor would more than do the job. That would be
240 amps at 480v, 3 phase. Figure a 400 amp service for this. A 400
amp receptacle could be mounted below grade in a waterproof box. the
winch could easily be cord connected. (We cord connected the USS
Nimitz at 5,000 volts, so a 400 amp 480 volt cord connection is a
piece of cake).

What intrigues me about this is using a variable speed drive. The
flexibility of controlling the winch would be phenomenal. Here's an
example: http://tinyurl.com/2zafh for a science fair project that
designed a sailplane airspeed telemetry system specifically for winch
launches. This value could easily be programmed into a variable speed
drive. Rate of approach to this value could also be controlled. This
is but one example.

There must be, in the whole U.S., an engineer that designs industrial
drive systems and that is also a sailplane pilot. This could be a
very interesting project to play around with.

[Littleboy]

In article >,
says...
> Mark James Boyd wrote:
> > Craig Freeman > wrote:
> >
> >>Marc Ramsey > wrote
> >>
> >>>Craig Freeman wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
> >>>>build a winch if such a design were presented?
> >>>
> >>>I'd build one, but with the constraint that it can be built on a trailer
> >>>that can be pulled by a mid-size pickup or SUV (under 4000 lbs. total).
> >>> Anything larger, or built on a truck is, in my opinion, not practical
> >>>for anything other than primarily fixed site usage.
> >
> >
> > Portable sure sounds nice. Hmmm...saw a scooter version made from a
> > Yamaha 250 scooter, for hang gliders (way too little hp). Another idea
> > is a snowmobile. I wonder if the back axle would work as a winch <G>.
> > I've never driven one so I don't know if they're
> > automatic or manual...
> >
> > I've seen a bunch of surplus 150 to 200 hp electric motors
> > for $3,000 to $5,000. Seems like a very logical choice (much cleaner,
> > easier to control, not as much fire danger, simple, etc.).
> > But definitely this is a fixed winch (and how does one get 500 volts and
> > 100 amps for a power supply? At Avenal if it ran
> > the whole city might go dim ;) The 50 car batteries idea is only
> > $2,000 to $5,000 but one wonders if this and a generator isn't
> > silly instead of just power coming off a city line...
> > I dunno if this is easily possible, but I'll ask my brother
> > (he's a commercial electrician).
> >
> > New electric motors in the same hp are about 5x to 10x as expensive.
> > --
> >
> > ------------+
> > Mark Boyd
> > Avenal, California, USA
> I have seen EV Dragsters with electric forklift motors putting out 500
> HP. Can pull a 3000 lb car Down the 1/4 mile in 14 or so sec.
> Now where to get the 440 volts dc from :)

Easy, an industrial dc rectifier. As industrial rectifiers go, this
would be a small one.

>
> home built up to 70 mph, 50 to 100 mile range, 1000 foot lbs of torque
> Lots of info here.
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/messages/
>
>

[Bill Daniels]

"Littleboy" > wrote in message
ws.com...
> In article >,
> says...
> >
> > "Littleboy" > wrote in message
> > ews.com...
> > > In article >,
> > > says...
> > > > (Craig Freeman) wrote in message
> > >...
> > > > > "Bob Korves" > wrote in message
> > >...
> > > > > > "Craig Freeman" > wrote in message
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am a parts person at an International Trucks (Navistar)
dealer.
> > We are
> > > > > > full service dealers for International, Cummins, Detroit Diesel,
and
> > > > > > Caterpillar engines. It is certainly possible to reprogram the
> > ECU's of
> > > > > > these diesels. We do it every day. Simple and easy enough for
high
> > school
> > > > > > drop outs to do. I sell the software for reprogramming the
engines.
> > Shrink
> > > > > > wrap stuff, just like at the computer store. That said, it
would
> > probably
> > > > > > be possible to just replace the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor,
> > "electronic
> > > > > > foot pedal") with a microprocessor circuit and get the thing to
do
> > what you
> > > > > > need. I am not a computer nerd, so I don't know the details...
> > > > > > -Bob Korves
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I still hear too many stories from truck owners, (my company
services
> > > > > around 2000 trucks a month) that say after reprograming their rig
at
> > > > > the dealer something was not right and it had to be done again.
> > Believe
> > > > > me I understand that some of them don't even know what is under
the
> > > > > hood of their K Whopper or Petercar but some do know a great deal.
> > > > > The excess of 100 years of experience which my store managers
have,
> > > > > all certified deisel mechanics and former shop foreman's and
service
> > > > > writers with one the big three engine manufacturers, say yes we
can
> > > > > reprogram but results vary engine to engine and the only way to
> > > > > know exactly what you have is to put it on the dyno. It will
> > > > > probably be close but maybe not close enough for this application.
> > > > > Maybe the tractor pull guys have it all figured out.
> > > > > I wish to redirect your attention to the original proposition.
> > > > > "to come up with a design for a safe, reliable, and cost effective
> > > > > winch, which could be built by a group of amateurs in the USA
> > > > > using commercially available parts without a whole lot of
> > > > > modifications". I think that is a worthwhile goal and in the near
> > > > > future some US clubs might begin to take advantage of such a
design.
> > > > > By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
> > > > > build a winch if such a design were presented? If not, we should
> > > > > probably just go flying. Come on down Bill, I'll bet you dinner
> > > > > I can snap your head back in that big ole heavy glider you are
> > > > > flying too. Be sure and bring a heavy link with you.
> > > > >
> > > > > Craig-
> > > >
> > > > After more investigation I have the following which may help
> > > > carify the engine reprogramming discussion. Cummins, at least,
> > > > does sell disks which allow the owner to reprogram the ECU's of
> > > > their engines. However these disks allow only for the setting of
> > > > the peimeters of the engine. Examples are, top idle speed, idle
> > > > shut down, auto jake brake, but not HP and torque. When you change
> > > > HP and torque outputs it's called "recallibration" and these codes
> > > > are locked up by the OEM's and are not sold. Now for the good
> > > > news, there are aftermarket hackers selling "recallibration" codes
> > > > available for late model midsize diesels. Motorhome and diesel
> > > > pickup owners looking for more power are driving this industry.
> > > > It voids any warrenty of course but what a small price to pay
> > > > when you could get a tire smokin' dually one ton four door.
YeeeHaa!!
> > > > I have a connection with one rather large aftermarket designer and
> > > > retailer. We have posed the question to him if he could build a
> > > > platform of codes which could increase HP in say 5 to 10 percent
> > > > increments and be able to input quickly from a laptop. One concern
> > > > is to select a engine which is designed to perform within the hp
> > > > range needed. We don't need to soup up a engine just control it's
> > > > output. Trying to detune a very large diesel has its own
complications.
> > > >
> > > > Craig-
> > > >
> > > Just a lurker here, with great interest in soaring, but little
> > > experience. However, I may have some expertise in the subject of this
> > > thread.
> > >
> > > If I had never seen a sailplane winch, a clean sheet as it were, the
> > > winch I would design would be an engine (fuel makes little difference
> > > at this stage) and generator. The drums would be powered by an
> > > electric motor(s) via a variable speed drive(s). A variable speed
> > > drive can be programmed and operated through a computer, with
> > > virtually every parameter of motor operation infinitely variable.
> > >
> > > For example, the parameters for every sailplane could be configured
> > > for the drive and then it would be a simple mouse click to set all
> > > the launch variables for any sailplane configuration.
> > >
> > > You could get so slick with this. Maximum cable speed could be set.
> > > Maximum acceleration rates could be set. Every conceivable parameter
> > > could be set and modified in seconds. Man, it would be so cool.
> > >
> > > And another nice thing about it? Everything is very reliable, long
> > > lived, and reasonably priced on the used market.
> > >
> > > And there ain't nothin' that pulls like an electric motor. Ever been
> > > on a high speed electric train? They just pull and pull and pull.
> > > Maximum torque at zero rpm.
> > >
> > > A good engineer would have a field day with this. What a great
> > > project this could be.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Google: "Elektrostartwinde ESW 2B" and use the German to English
language
> > tools. Search further with "segelflug elektrowinde". These boys use 50
car
> > batteries recharging them from the mains or a diesel genset.
> >
> > Take a look at: http://www.skylaunch.de/album/index.html for a album of
> > winch pictures.
> >
> > Look at: http://www.dassu.de/Wir_uber_uns/Elektrowinde/elektrowinde.html
for
> > a stationary electric winch.
> >
> > Electric winches could be (are) everything you say. My initial
> > investigation indicated the cost was way too high, but then I'm far from
an
> > expert on high power electric drive stuff. Read the web pages above and
> > post your opinions.
> >
> > Bill Daniels
> >
> >
> Thanks for the links. As I said, not having any experience with a
> launch winch can be helpful because of a lack of preconceived notions
> of what a winch should be. On the other hand, it can be a hindrance
> because you don't have the benefit of other peoples successes and
> failures.
>
> As I wrote the original post I was trying to ballpark costs but still
> don't have a design fleshed out enough for even a rough estimate. My
> first inclination would be to look for used equipment. Given the
> current U.S. economy, and businesses leaving the U.S. In the
> Southeast and Northeast of the U.S., textile mills leaving should
> have left a surplus of good used electrical equipment on the market.
>
> Fabrication and steel costs probably would be the largest single
> component of costs. I think the electrical components would run 2nd,
> followed by power wiring, and then control wiring. Then there would
> be the miscellaneous costs (I think a safe, habitable control cab
> would be nice).
>
> One of the German sites animated the electrical equivilant of their
> diesel winch at 1.5kWh. In the U.S. that would be about $0.15. They
> used about 0.5l of diesel per launch. Cost today in the U.S. would be
> about $0.25. I don't know how many launches a typical club could see
> in a day, but I think one would have to figure in increased launch
> efficiencies of winch vs. aerotow. Someone should have a good figure
> for this.
>
> One club is using a 330HP engine. That would lead me to believe a
> 200/250HP electric motor would more than do the job. That would be
> 240 amps at 480v, 3 phase. Figure a 400 amp service for this. A 400
> amp receptacle could be mounted below grade in a waterproof box. the
> winch could easily be cord connected. (We cord connected the USS
> Nimitz at 5,000 volts, so a 400 amp 480 volt cord connection is a
> piece of cake).
>
> What intrigues me about this is using a variable speed drive. The
> flexibility of controlling the winch would be phenomenal. Here's an
> example: http://tinyurl.com/2zafh for a science fair project that
> designed a sailplane airspeed telemetry system specifically for winch
> launches. This value could easily be programmed into a variable speed
> drive. Rate of approach to this value could also be controlled. This
> is but one example.
>
> There must be, in the whole U.S., an engineer that designs industrial
> drive systems and that is also a sailplane pilot. This could be a
> very interesting project to play around with.
>

I've read that the average single seater can be electrically launched for
about 1kWhr or 3,600,000 Joules.

Keep in mind that the winch must be mobile so that it can be placed at the
extreme upwind edge of the flying field. Very few airfields have a reliable
prevailing wind direction that would allow a permanent winch location. That
pretty much eliminates the fixed power receptacle.

Bill Daniels

[Littleboy]

In article >,
says...
>
> "Littleboy" > wrote in message
> ws.com...
> > In article >,
> > says...
> > >
> > > "Littleboy" > wrote in message
> > > ews.com...
> > > > In article >,
> > > > says...
> > > > > (Craig Freeman) wrote in message
> > > >...
> > > > > > "Bob Korves" > wrote in message
> > > >...
> > > > > > > "Craig Freeman" > wrote in message
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am a parts person at an International Trucks (Navistar)
> dealer.
> > > We are
> > > > > > > full service dealers for International, Cummins, Detroit Diesel,
> and
> > > > > > > Caterpillar engines. It is certainly possible to reprogram the
> > > ECU's of
> > > > > > > these diesels. We do it every day. Simple and easy enough for
> high
> > > school
> > > > > > > drop outs to do. I sell the software for reprogramming the
> engines.
> > > Shrink
> > > > > > > wrap stuff, just like at the computer store. That said, it
> would
> > > probably
> > > > > > > be possible to just replace the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor,
> > > "electronic
> > > > > > > foot pedal") with a microprocessor circuit and get the thing to
> do
> > > what you
> > > > > > > need. I am not a computer nerd, so I don't know the details...
> > > > > > > -Bob Korves
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I still hear too many stories from truck owners, (my company
> services
> > > > > > around 2000 trucks a month) that say after reprograming their rig
> at
> > > > > > the dealer something was not right and it had to be done again.
> > > Believe
> > > > > > me I understand that some of them don't even know what is under
> the
> > > > > > hood of their K Whopper or Petercar but some do know a great deal.
> > > > > > The excess of 100 years of experience which my store managers
> have,
> > > > > > all certified deisel mechanics and former shop foreman's and
> service
> > > > > > writers with one the big three engine manufacturers, say yes we
> can
> > > > > > reprogram but results vary engine to engine and the only way to
> > > > > > know exactly what you have is to put it on the dyno. It will
> > > > > > probably be close but maybe not close enough for this application.
> > > > > > Maybe the tractor pull guys have it all figured out.
> > > > > > I wish to redirect your attention to the original proposition.
> > > > > > "to come up with a design for a safe, reliable, and cost effective
> > > > > > winch, which could be built by a group of amateurs in the USA
> > > > > > using commercially available parts without a whole lot of
> > > > > > modifications". I think that is a worthwhile goal and in the near
> > > > > > future some US clubs might begin to take advantage of such a
> design.
> > > > > > By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
> > > > > > build a winch if such a design were presented? If not, we should
> > > > > > probably just go flying. Come on down Bill, I'll bet you dinner
> > > > > > I can snap your head back in that big ole heavy glider you are
> > > > > > flying too. Be sure and bring a heavy link with you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Craig-
> > > > >
> > > > > After more investigation I have the following which may help
> > > > > carify the engine reprogramming discussion. Cummins, at least,
> > > > > does sell disks which allow the owner to reprogram the ECU's of
> > > > > their engines. However these disks allow only for the setting of
> > > > > the peimeters of the engine. Examples are, top idle speed, idle
> > > > > shut down, auto jake brake, but not HP and torque. When you change
> > > > > HP and torque outputs it's called "recallibration" and these codes
> > > > > are locked up by the OEM's and are not sold. Now for the good
> > > > > news, there are aftermarket hackers selling "recallibration" codes
> > > > > available for late model midsize diesels. Motorhome and diesel
> > > > > pickup owners looking for more power are driving this industry.
> > > > > It voids any warrenty of course but what a small price to pay
> > > > > when you could get a tire smokin' dually one ton four door.
> YeeeHaa!!
> > > > > I have a connection with one rather large aftermarket designer and
> > > > > retailer. We have posed the question to him if he could build a
> > > > > platform of codes which could increase HP in say 5 to 10 percent
> > > > > increments and be able to input quickly from a laptop. One concern
> > > > > is to select a engine which is designed to perform within the hp
> > > > > range needed. We don't need to soup up a engine just control it's
> > > > > output. Trying to detune a very large diesel has its own
> complications.
> > > > >
> > > > > Craig-
> > > > >
> > > > Just a lurker here, with great interest in soaring, but little
> > > > experience. However, I may have some expertise in the subject of this
> > > > thread.
> > > >
> > > > If I had never seen a sailplane winch, a clean sheet as it were, the
> > > > winch I would design would be an engine (fuel makes little difference
> > > > at this stage) and generator. The drums would be powered by an
> > > > electric motor(s) via a variable speed drive(s). A variable speed
> > > > drive can be programmed and operated through a computer, with
> > > > virtually every parameter of motor operation infinitely variable.
> > > >
> > > > For example, the parameters for every sailplane could be configured
> > > > for the drive and then it would be a simple mouse click to set all
> > > > the launch variables for any sailplane configuration.
> > > >
> > > > You could get so slick with this. Maximum cable speed could be set.
> > > > Maximum acceleration rates could be set. Every conceivable parameter
> > > > could be set and modified in seconds. Man, it would be so cool.
> > > >
> > > > And another nice thing about it? Everything is very reliable, long
> > > > lived, and reasonably priced on the used market.
> > > >
> > > > And there ain't nothin' that pulls like an electric motor. Ever been
> > > > on a high speed electric train? They just pull and pull and pull.
> > > > Maximum torque at zero rpm.
> > > >
> > > > A good engineer would have a field day with this. What a great
> > > > project this could be.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Google: "Elektrostartwinde ESW 2B" and use the German to English
> language
> > > tools. Search further with "segelflug elektrowinde". These boys use 50
> car
> > > batteries recharging them from the mains or a diesel genset.
> > >
> > > Take a look at: http://www.skylaunch.de/album/index.html for a album of
> > > winch pictures.
> > >
> > > Look at: http://www.dassu.de/Wir_uber_uns/Elektrowinde/elektrowinde.html
> for
> > > a stationary electric winch.
> > >
> > > Electric winches could be (are) everything you say. My initial
> > > investigation indicated the cost was way too high, but then I'm far from
> an
> > > expert on high power electric drive stuff. Read the web pages above and
> > > post your opinions.
> > >
> > > Bill Daniels
> > >
> > >
> > Thanks for the links. As I said, not having any experience with a
> > launch winch can be helpful because of a lack of preconceived notions
> > of what a winch should be. On the other hand, it can be a hindrance
> > because you don't have the benefit of other peoples successes and
> > failures.
> >
> > As I wrote the original post I was trying to ballpark costs but still
> > don't have a design fleshed out enough for even a rough estimate. My
> > first inclination would be to look for used equipment. Given the
> > current U.S. economy, and businesses leaving the U.S. In the
> > Southeast and Northeast of the U.S., textile mills leaving should
> > have left a surplus of good used electrical equipment on the market.
> >
> > Fabrication and steel costs probably would be the largest single
> > component of costs. I think the electrical components would run 2nd,
> > followed by power wiring, and then control wiring. Then there would
> > be the miscellaneous costs (I think a safe, habitable control cab
> > would be nice).
> >
> > One of the German sites animated the electrical equivilant of their
> > diesel winch at 1.5kWh. In the U.S. that would be about $0.15. They
> > used about 0.5l of diesel per launch. Cost today in the U.S. would be
> > about $0.25. I don't know how many launches a typical club could see
> > in a day, but I think one would have to figure in increased launch
> > efficiencies of winch vs. aerotow. Someone should have a good figure
> > for this.
> >
> > One club is using a 330HP engine. That would lead me to believe a
> > 200/250HP electric motor would more than do the job. That would be
> > 240 amps at 480v, 3 phase. Figure a 400 amp service for this. A 400
> > amp receptacle could be mounted below grade in a waterproof box. the
> > winch could easily be cord connected. (We cord connected the USS
> > Nimitz at 5,000 volts, so a 400 amp 480 volt cord connection is a
> > piece of cake).
> >
> > What intrigues me about this is using a variable speed drive. The
> > flexibility of controlling the winch would be phenomenal. Here's an
> > example: http://tinyurl.com/2zafh for a science fair project that
> > designed a sailplane airspeed telemetry system specifically for winch
> > launches. This value could easily be programmed into a variable speed
> > drive. Rate of approach to this value could also be controlled. This
> > is but one example.
> >
> > There must be, in the whole U.S., an engineer that designs industrial
> > drive systems and that is also a sailplane pilot. This could be a
> > very interesting project to play around with.
> >
>
> I've read that the average single seater can be electrically launched for
> about 1kWhr or 3,600,000 Joules.
>
> Keep in mind that the winch must be mobile so that it can be placed at the
> extreme upwind edge of the flying field. Very few airfields have a reliable
> prevailing wind direction that would allow a permanent winch location. That
> pretty much eliminates the fixed power receptacle.
>
> Bill Daniels
>
>
As we say in the electrical engineering biz, copper's cheap. 2
runways, 2,000 feet in length each, 2 receptacles per runway. Total 4
receptacles. About 4,300 circuit feet of cabling. Or, a diesel
generator. In the off season, some money could be made with an
emergency generator. Cat, Cummins, or others might just make some
interesting lease-back options available. Food for thought.

[Mark James Boyd]

I'm also getting the impression that one can use a much less
powerful electric motor becase the amount of HP getting to the
cable and ending up as effective pull is much higher than
for a traditional fuel motor. I'd like to really know what
a 100 hp electric would do in terms of accelerating a
500 pound glider.

Thinking more about advantages and disadvantages, electric
shock could be a biggie, and I imagine there IS some heat
generated. Wear is likely less of an issue, perhaps
brush changes once in a while. Designing it with spectra
in mind seems a good idea...reduces the weight of line and
thereby the HP requirement. This shifts the expense from the
initial expense instead to ongoing expense (replacing and repairing
expensive rope). I'd favor this. Anything that allows the
same UMPF for less initial investment...

Having such good control of the motor seems like it would really
improve efficiency too. Sure sure, expert winch drivers
do great things, but it would be nice to not need "experts"
to do something that should be simple...

One other possible inefficiency...I wonder how much electric
attenuation occurs over even thick power supply cables.
But I definitely think electric winch is the way to go...

Bill Daniels > wrote:
>
>> >>>that can be pulled by a mid-size pickup or SUV (under 4000 lbs. total).
>> >>> Anything larger, or built on a truck is, in my opinion, not
>practical
>> >>>for anything other than primarily fixed site usage.
>> >
>> > I've seen a bunch of surplus 150 to 200 hp electric motors
>> > for $3,000 to $5,000. Seems like a very logical choice (much cleaner,
>> > easier to control, not as much fire danger, simple, etc.).
>> > But definitely this is a fixed winch (and how does one get 500 volts and
>> > 100 amps for a power supply? At Avenal if it ran
>> > the whole city might go dim ;) The 50 car batteries idea is only
>> > $2,000 to $5,000 but one wonders if this and a generator isn't
>> > Avenal, California, USA
>> I have seen EV Dragsters with electric forklift motors putting out 500
>> HP. Can pull a 3000 lb car Down the 1/4 mile in 14 or so sec.
>> Now where to get the 440 volts dc from :)
>>
>> home built up to 70 mph, 50 to 100 mile range, 1000 foot lbs of torque
>> Lots of info here.
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/messages/
>
>Before you guys get too far into an electric winch design, look up
>"Ultracapacitors". Basically these are huge electrical capacitors that can
>charge and discharge at extremely high amperages. Maxwell Technologies in
>San Diego that makes the best ones in the world.
>http://www.maxwell.com/index.html
>
>Use a small generator set to charge a bank of ultracaps, then dump the
>accumulated charge into your 500HP forklift motor.
>
>Bill Daniels
>>
>


--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

[Mark James Boyd]

LOL. I've never seen as much overengineering anywhere than
on RAS and in the government. Two winches? Does the wind shift
that often? How about one winch, right next to the existing
power lines (at least for the darned prototype)?

You guys crack me up with your "glider winch and power station
industrial complex" designs. If you're that rich, good
for you! ;P

Littleboy > wrote:
>In article >,
>says...
>>
>> "Littleboy" > wrote in message
>> ws.com...
>> > In article >,
>> > says...
>> > >
>> > > "Littleboy" > wrote in message
>> > > ews.com...
>> > > > In article >,
>> > > > says...
>> > > > > (Craig Freeman) wrote in message
>> > > >...
>> > > > > > "Bob Korves" > wrote in message
>> > > >...
>> > > > > > > "Craig Freeman" > wrote in message
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > I am a parts person at an International Trucks (Navistar)
>> dealer.
>> > > We are
>> > > > > > > full service dealers for International, Cummins, Detroit Diesel,
>> and
>> > > > > > > Caterpillar engines. It is certainly possible to reprogram the
>> > > ECU's of
>> > > > > > > these diesels. We do it every day. Simple and easy enough for
>> high
>> > > school
>> > > > > > > drop outs to do. I sell the software for reprogramming the
>> engines.
>> > > Shrink
>> > > > > > > wrap stuff, just like at the computer store. That said, it
>> would
>> > > probably
>> > > > > > > be possible to just replace the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor,
>> > > "electronic
>> > > > > > > foot pedal") with a microprocessor circuit and get the thing to
>> do
>> > > what you
>> > > > > > > need. I am not a computer nerd, so I don't know the details...
>> > > > > > > -Bob Korves
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I still hear too many stories from truck owners, (my company
>> services
>> > > > > > around 2000 trucks a month) that say after reprograming their rig
>> at
>> > > > > > the dealer something was not right and it had to be done again.
>> > > Believe
>> > > > > > me I understand that some of them don't even know what is under
>> the
>> > > > > > hood of their K Whopper or Petercar but some do know a great deal.
>> > > > > > The excess of 100 years of experience which my store managers
>> have,
>> > > > > > all certified deisel mechanics and former shop foreman's and
>> service
>> > > > > > writers with one the big three engine manufacturers, say yes we
>> can
>> > > > > > reprogram but results vary engine to engine and the only way to
>> > > > > > know exactly what you have is to put it on the dyno. It will
>> > > > > > probably be close but maybe not close enough for this application.
>> > > > > > Maybe the tractor pull guys have it all figured out.
>> > > > > > I wish to redirect your attention to the original proposition.
>> > > > > > "to come up with a design for a safe, reliable, and cost effective
>> > > > > > winch, which could be built by a group of amateurs in the USA
>> > > > > > using commercially available parts without a whole lot of
>> > > > > > modifications". I think that is a worthwhile goal and in the near
>> > > > > > future some US clubs might begin to take advantage of such a
>> design.
>> > > > > > By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
>> > > > > > build a winch if such a design were presented? If not, we should
>> > > > > > probably just go flying. Come on down Bill, I'll bet you dinner
>> > > > > > I can snap your head back in that big ole heavy glider you are
>> > > > > > flying too. Be sure and bring a heavy link with you.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Craig-
>> > > > >
>> > > > > After more investigation I have the following which may help
>> > > > > carify the engine reprogramming discussion. Cummins, at least,
>> > > > > does sell disks which allow the owner to reprogram the ECU's of
>> > > > > their engines. However these disks allow only for the setting of
>> > > > > the peimeters of the engine. Examples are, top idle speed, idle
>> > > > > shut down, auto jake brake, but not HP and torque. When you change
>> > > > > HP and torque outputs it's called "recallibration" and these codes
>> > > > > are locked up by the OEM's and are not sold. Now for the good
>> > > > > news, there are aftermarket hackers selling "recallibration" codes
>> > > > > available for late model midsize diesels. Motorhome and diesel
>> > > > > pickup owners looking for more power are driving this industry.
>> > > > > It voids any warrenty of course but what a small price to pay
>> > > > > when you could get a tire smokin' dually one ton four door.
>> YeeeHaa!!
>> > > > > I have a connection with one rather large aftermarket designer and
>> > > > > retailer. We have posed the question to him if he could build a
>> > > > > platform of codes which could increase HP in say 5 to 10 percent
>> > > > > increments and be able to input quickly from a laptop. One concern
>> > > > > is to select a engine which is designed to perform within the hp
>> > > > > range needed. We don't need to soup up a engine just control it's
>> > > > > output. Trying to detune a very large diesel has its own
>> complications.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Craig-
>> > > > >
>> > > > Just a lurker here, with great interest in soaring, but little
>> > > > experience. However, I may have some expertise in the subject of this
>> > > > thread.
>> > > >
>> > > > If I had never seen a sailplane winch, a clean sheet as it were, the
>> > > > winch I would design would be an engine (fuel makes little difference
>> > > > at this stage) and generator. The drums would be powered by an
>> > > > electric motor(s) via a variable speed drive(s). A variable speed
>> > > > drive can be programmed and operated through a computer, with
>> > > > virtually every parameter of motor operation infinitely variable.
>> > > >
>> > > > For example, the parameters for every sailplane could be configured
>> > > > for the drive and then it would be a simple mouse click to set all
>> > > > the launch variables for any sailplane configuration.
>> > > >
>> > > > You could get so slick with this. Maximum cable speed could be set.
>> > > > Maximum acceleration rates could be set. Every conceivable parameter
>> > > > could be set and modified in seconds. Man, it would be so cool.
>> > > >
>> > > > And another nice thing about it? Everything is very reliable, long
>> > > > lived, and reasonably priced on the used market.
>> > > >
>> > > > And there ain't nothin' that pulls like an electric motor. Ever been
>> > > > on a high speed electric train? They just pull and pull and pull.
>> > > > Maximum torque at zero rpm.
>> > > >
>> > > > A good engineer would have a field day with this. What a great
>> > > > project this could be.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > Google: "Elektrostartwinde ESW 2B" and use the German to English
>> language
>> > > tools. Search further with "segelflug elektrowinde". These boys use 50
>> car
>> > > batteries recharging them from the mains or a diesel genset.
>> > >
>> > > Take a look at: http://www.skylaunch.de/album/index.html for a album of
>> > > winch pictures.
>> > >
>> > > Look at: http://www.dassu.de/Wir_uber_uns/Elektrowinde/elektrowinde.html
>> for
>> > > a stationary electric winch.
>> > >
>> > > Electric winches could be (are) everything you say. My initial
>> > > investigation indicated the cost was way too high, but then I'm far from
>> an
>> > > expert on high power electric drive stuff. Read the web pages above and
>> > > post your opinions.
>> > >
>> > > Bill Daniels
>> > >
>> > >
>> > Thanks for the links. As I said, not having any experience with a
>> > launch winch can be helpful because of a lack of preconceived notions
>> > of what a winch should be. On the other hand, it can be a hindrance
>> > because you don't have the benefit of other peoples successes and
>> > failures.
>> >
>> > As I wrote the original post I was trying to ballpark costs but still
>> > don't have a design fleshed out enough for even a rough estimate. My
>> > first inclination would be to look for used equipment. Given the
>> > current U.S. economy, and businesses leaving the U.S. In the
>> > Southeast and Northeast of the U.S., textile mills leaving should
>> > have left a surplus of good used electrical equipment on the market.
>> >
>> > Fabrication and steel costs probably would be the largest single
>> > component of costs. I think the electrical components would run 2nd,
>> > followed by power wiring, and then control wiring. Then there would
>> > be the miscellaneous costs (I think a safe, habitable control cab
>> > would be nice).
>> >
>> > One of the German sites animated the electrical equivilant of their
>> > diesel winch at 1.5kWh. In the U.S. that would be about $0.15. They
>> > used about 0.5l of diesel per launch. Cost today in the U.S. would be
>> > about $0.25. I don't know how many launches a typical club could see
>> > in a day, but I think one would have to figure in increased launch
>> > efficiencies of winch vs. aerotow. Someone should have a good figure
>> > for this.
>> >
>> > One club is using a 330HP engine. That would lead me to believe a
>> > 200/250HP electric motor would more than do the job. That would be
>> > 240 amps at 480v, 3 phase. Figure a 400 amp service for this. A 400
>> > amp receptacle could be mounted below grade in a waterproof box. the
>> > winch could easily be cord connected. (We cord connected the USS
>> > Nimitz at 5,000 volts, so a 400 amp 480 volt cord connection is a
>> > piece of cake).
>> >
>> > What intrigues me about this is using a variable speed drive. The
>> > flexibility of controlling the winch would be phenomenal. Here's an
>> > example: http://tinyurl.com/2zafh for a science fair project that
>> > designed a sailplane airspeed telemetry system specifically for winch
>> > launches. This value could easily be programmed into a variable speed
>> > drive. Rate of approach to this value could also be controlled. This
>> > is but one example.
>> >
>> > There must be, in the whole U.S., an engineer that designs industrial
>> > drive systems and that is also a sailplane pilot. This could be a
>> > very interesting project to play around with.
>> >
>>
>> I've read that the average single seater can be electrically launched for
>> about 1kWhr or 3,600,000 Joules.
>>
>> Keep in mind that the winch must be mobile so that it can be placed at the
>> extreme upwind edge of the flying field. Very few airfields have a reliable
>> prevailing wind direction that would allow a permanent winch location. That
>> pretty much eliminates the fixed power receptacle.
>>
>> Bill Daniels
>>
>>
>As we say in the electrical engineering biz, copper's cheap. 2
>runways, 2,000 feet in length each, 2 receptacles per runway. Total 4
>receptacles. About 4,300 circuit feet of cabling. Or, a diesel
>generator. In the off season, some money could be made with an
>emergency generator. Cat, Cummins, or others might just make some
>interesting lease-back options available. Food for thought.


--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

[Littleboy]

In article <405fd00e$1@darkstar>, says...
> I'm also getting the impression that one can use a much less
> powerful electric motor becase the amount of HP getting to the
> cable and ending up as effective pull is much higher than
> for a traditional fuel motor. I'd like to really know what
> a 100 hp electric would do in terms of accelerating a
> 500 pound glider.

100HP is getting up there. I'm sure it would accelerate a 500lb
glider quite nicely. This is out of my area of expertise, but can
easily be done by somebody with the knowledge of tractive systems.
>
> Thinking more about advantages and disadvantages, electric
> shock could be a biggie,

Actually the threat of electrical shock is minimal compared to that
of the mechanical hazards present with rotating machinery.

> and I imagine there IS some heat generated.

Heat is not an issue. The efficiencies of modern electric motors will
approach 95%, whereas the efficiency of an internal combustion engine
is on the order of 20-25%.

> Wear is likely less of an issue, perhaps
> brush changes once in a while. Designing it with spectra
> in mind seems a good idea...reduces the weight of line and
> thereby the HP requirement. This shifts the expense from the
> initial expense instead to ongoing expense (replacing and repairing
> expensive rope). I'd favor this. Anything that allows the
> same UMPF for less initial investment...

I can't see the first cost of an electrically driven winch being
competitive with an engine driven winch. Where I see the economic
advantages are in the life cycle costs of the winch. An electric
motor, with its one moving part, is very reliable.
>
> Having such good control of the motor seems like it would really
> improve efficiency too. Sure sure, expert winch drivers
> do great things, but it would be nice to not need "experts"
> to do something that should be simple...

This is where I see one of the advantages of electric drive with a
programmable variable speed drive. I take a look at modern chair
lifts found at ski resorts. Multi-speed, multi-stage and operated by
people that, well, lets not go there.

Anyway, I was just kinda thinking out loud, in a written sort of way.

>
> One other possible inefficiency...I wonder how much electric
> attenuation occurs over even thick power supply cables.
> But I definitely think electric winch is the way to go...
>
> Bill Daniels > wrote:
> >
> >> >>>that can be pulled by a mid-size pickup or SUV (under 4000 lbs. total).
> >> >>> Anything larger, or built on a truck is, in my opinion, not
> >practical
> >> >>>for anything other than primarily fixed site usage.
> >> >
> >> > I've seen a bunch of surplus 150 to 200 hp electric motors
> >> > for $3,000 to $5,000. Seems like a very logical choice (much cleaner,
> >> > easier to control, not as much fire danger, simple, etc.).
> >> > But definitely this is a fixed winch (and how does one get 500 volts and
> >> > 100 amps for a power supply? At Avenal if it ran
> >> > the whole city might go dim ;) The 50 car batteries idea is only
> >> > $2,000 to $5,000 but one wonders if this and a generator isn't
> >> > Avenal, California, USA
> >> I have seen EV Dragsters with electric forklift motors putting out 500
> >> HP. Can pull a 3000 lb car Down the 1/4 mile in 14 or so sec.
> >> Now where to get the 440 volts dc from :)
> >>
> >> home built up to 70 mph, 50 to 100 mile range, 1000 foot lbs of torque
> >> Lots of info here.
> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/messages/
> >
> >Before you guys get too far into an electric winch design, look up
> >"Ultracapacitors". Basically these are huge electrical capacitors that can
> >charge and discharge at extremely high amperages. Maxwell Technologies in
> >San Diego that makes the best ones in the world.
> >http://www.maxwell.com/index.html
> >
> >Use a small generator set to charge a bank of ultracaps, then dump the
> >accumulated charge into your 500HP forklift motor.
> >
> >Bill Daniels
> >>
> >
>
>
> --
>
> ------------+
> Mark Boyd
> Avenal, California, USA
>

[tango4]

"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
news:405fd12c$1@darkstar...
> LOL. I've never seen as much overengineering anywhere than
> on RAS and in the government. Two winches? Does the wind shift
> that often? How about one winch, right next to the existing
> power lines (at least for the darned prototype)?
>
> You guys crack me up with your "glider winch and power station
> industrial complex" designs. If you're that rich, good
> for you! ;P
>

http://www.glidingmagazine.com/FeatureArticle.asp?id=293 covers just the
kind of thing you guys are re-inventing. By the way the unit cost them 56000
Euros and that was a year ago, at the time they considered it cheaper than
the alternatives.

www.elektrostartwinde.de has details on commercial availability.

Some details
up to 20kw draw from the 3 phase mains supply
200kw launch power
850 kg max glider weight
1 g initial acceleration
Euro 1.90 per launch including cable, winch and battery replacements
Electronic motor control

There is a fixed multiple drum electric winch somewhere in Germany too.

Ian

[Mark James Boyd]

tango4 > wrote:
>"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
>> that often? How about one winch, right next to the existing
>> power lines (at least for the darned prototype)?
>>
>> You guys crack me up with your "glider winch and power station
>> industrial complex" designs. If you're that rich, good
>> for you! ;P
>
>http://www.glidingmagazine.com/FeatureArticle.asp?id=293 covers just the
>kind of thing you guys are re-inventing. By the way the unit cost them 56000
>Euros and that was a year ago, at the time they considered it cheaper than
>the alternatives.
>
>Some details
>up to 20kw draw from the 3 phase mains supply
>200kw launch power
>850 kg max glider weight
>1 g initial acceleration
>Euro 1.90 per launch including cable, winch and battery replacements
>Electronic motor control

Just to be clear, I personally have no interest in winching a 850kg
glider, laying 5000 meters of copper cable, or paying for a winch
AND a spanking new semi truck (all mentioned in the glidingmagazine
article).

I'm interested in about 1/4 of that weight glider (226 kg),
a few hundred feet of copper power cable, a 4000# total weight towed
as a trailer behind a truck, and spectra rope that doesn't weigh 300# or
lash around and leave pieces of metal in the
winch driver when it breaks.

If an electric motor of 100hp like the one at
www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/three_phase_explosion_proof.htm
for about $5,000 and 2,000 pounds can do the trick, I'm guessing
the other $60,000 (US) would cover the trailer and copper wire and
spectra and knicknacks with enough left over to
make four spare mini-winches and still buy a used AC-4c Russia :P

That's a big IF. I still don't know the apples to oranges
electric to fuel based engine UMPH...(tension that actually gets to
the glider). Is 100hp enough? If boat engines or car conversions are
any indication, electrics are 3 times as efficient as gas motors
in terms of HP actually delivered. So maybe an electric "100 hp"
winch is equivalent to 300hp of gas engine? Also, do the electric
motors really put out the same UMPH at lower RPM? I dunno...

I also don't put too much credibility to european pricing.
I remember the metal price tags on the trees in Germany
(in case you hit one and killed it you'd have to pay for it.)
$12,000 for a TREE?! Those Germans seemed to heap on a lot
of expensive fertilizer... ;P I'm all about clean air,
sunshine, some water, and soil. Besides, if Marc will
do all the labor for free, we can avoid the 100% to 200% retail
"markup," right?
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

[Bill Daniels]

"Todd Pattist" > wrote in message
...
> "Bill Daniels" > wrote:
>
> >Before you guys get too far into an electric winch design, look up
> >"Ultracapacitors". Basically these are huge electrical capacitors that
can
> >charge and discharge at extremely high amperages.
>
> When we used high energy capacitors on a research project,
> we kept them in a concrete block room with steel airlock
> doors that sealed the room automatically while they were
> charging. When the dielectric broke down on one capacitor,
> the explosion threw steel shards through a nearby table. I
> have no idea if this applies to all high energy capacitors,
> but caution and investigation are appropriate.
> Todd Pattist - "WH" Ventus C
> (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

I hadn't thought of that. With 3.6M joules stored, that would make a really
big ZAP if it shorted. I do know that ultracaps are being used on electric
busses to recover braking energy from the wheel motors. They charge and
discharge far more efficiently than batteries. Maxwell Technologies makes a
pretty good case for their product.

The problem I see is cost. It would require something like 600 2700 Farad
ultracaps to store 3.6M Joules. You save some of that by using a much
smaller engine in the genset that runs continuously to recharge the ultracap
bank between launches.

Safety might still be an issue just because there is so much energy stored
whether batteries or ultracaps. If the winch balks and needs repair after
the batteries or ultracaps are charged, you'd have to be damn careful what
you touched.

Bill Daniels

[Herbert Kilian]

Dave,
Excellent suggestion and - of course - it has been done already. In
fact it was around 1985 or so when I flew in France each spring for a
couple of weeks at wonderful St. Remy de Provence with about half the
launches done off a hydrostatic winch. It was arranged exactly as you
propose with a motor in each (large) reel, a dedicated diesel engine
driving the pump, all on a truck chassis. Very smooth and powerful
acceleration and launch altitudes of 400 m or 1,200 feet. Wonder if
they still run that winch, anybody out there has an idea?

Herbert

>
> Has anyone considered the use of 'Hydrostatic Pumps'
>
> Using the main engine to drive a hydraulic compressing
> pump, as used on mechanical diggers etc, a hydrostatic
> pump on each individual drum would provide the power
> to launch the glider.
>
> It would remove the need for complex mechanics and
> by a simple system of taps could drive any one of a
> number of individual drums.
>
> Using deep sided drums without pay on gear would reduce
> build costs and time.
>
> Building the winch on a trailer would be simple, mobile
> and may be cheaper than using complex mechanical drives.
> It would also be simple to maintain. I understand modern
> pumps can be programmed and controlled electronically.
>
>
> The main pumps can provide sufficient power as can
> be seen on mechanical diggers, but they are only pumping
> us a telescopic ram. I believe they are used on slow
> moving agricultural equipment to provide drive to the
> main wheels.
>
> The question is could the pumps provide the power and
> speed to drive a drum for several minutes to enable
> a glider to be launched.
>
> Similar pumps can be seen at
>
> http://www.casappa.com/
>
> Although I am sure they will be available throughout
> the world.
>
>
> Dave

[Littleboy]

In article >,
says...
>
> "Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
> news:405fd12c$1@darkstar...
> > LOL. I've never seen as much overengineering anywhere than
> > on RAS and in the government. Two winches? Does the wind shift
> > that often? How about one winch, right next to the existing
> > power lines (at least for the darned prototype)?
> >
> > You guys crack me up with your "glider winch and power station
> > industrial complex" designs. If you're that rich, good
> > for you! ;P
> >
>
> http://www.glidingmagazine.com/FeatureArticle.asp?id=293 covers just the
> kind of thing you guys are re-inventing. By the way the unit cost them 56000
> Euros and that was a year ago, at the time they considered it cheaper than
> the alternatives.
>
> www.elektrostartwinde.de has details on commercial availability.
>
> Some details
> up to 20kw draw from the 3 phase mains supply
> 200kw launch power
> 850 kg max glider weight
> 1 g initial acceleration
> Euro 1.90 per launch including cable, winch and battery replacements
> Electronic motor control
>
> There is a fixed multiple drum electric winch somewhere in Germany too.
>
> Ian
>
>
>
Thanks for the link. A very nicely done installation, quite
professional.

I knew that my idea was not original enough for someone not to have
done it. It appears that one of the features liked most is the
electronic control of the motor. That was the point I was trying to
make. Modern electronic control of an electric motor just make so
much sense.

Some of the units I need conversions for especially a "daN", I know,
read assume, that it is a Newton but am unfamiliar with the prefix
"da"). There has been a big change in SI units since I was in college
and we insular Yankees haven't done a good job of keeping up.

Thanks again.

[Littleboy]

In article <405fee2c$1@darkstar>, says...
> tango4 > wrote:
> >"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
> >> that often? How about one winch, right next to the existing
> >> power lines (at least for the darned prototype)?
> >>
> >> You guys crack me up with your "glider winch and power station
> >> industrial complex" designs. If you're that rich, good
> >> for you! ;P
> >
> >http://www.glidingmagazine.com/FeatureArticle.asp?id=293 covers just the
> >kind of thing you guys are re-inventing. By the way the unit cost them 56000
> >Euros and that was a year ago, at the time they considered it cheaper than
> >the alternatives.
> >
> >Some details
> >up to 20kw draw from the 3 phase mains supply
> >200kw launch power
> >850 kg max glider weight
> >1 g initial acceleration
> >Euro 1.90 per launch including cable, winch and battery replacements
> >Electronic motor control
>
> Just to be clear, I personally have no interest in winching a 850kg
> glider, laying 5000 meters of copper cable, or paying for a winch
> AND a spanking new semi truck (all mentioned in the glidingmagazine
> article).
>
> I'm interested in about 1/4 of that weight glider (226 kg),
> a few hundred feet of copper power cable, a 4000# total weight towed
> as a trailer behind a truck, and spectra rope that doesn't weigh 300# or
> lash around and leave pieces of metal in the
> winch driver when it breaks.
>
> If an electric motor of 100hp like the one at
> www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/three_phase_explosion_proof.htm
> for about $5,000 and 2,000 pounds can do the trick, I'm guessing
> the other $60,000 (US) would cover the trailer and copper wire and
> spectra and knicknacks with enough left over to
> make four spare mini-winches and still buy a used AC-4c Russia :P
>
> That's a big IF. I still don't know the apples to oranges
> electric to fuel based engine UMPH...(tension that actually gets to
> the glider). Is 100hp enough? If boat engines or car conversions are
> any indication, electrics are 3 times as efficient as gas motors
> in terms of HP actually delivered. So maybe an electric "100 hp"
> winch is equivalent to 300hp of gas engine? Also, do the electric
> motors really put out the same UMPH at lower RPM? I dunno...

Electric motors make maximum torque at "stall". This is just what is
wanted.
>
> I also don't put too much credibility to european pricing.
> I remember the metal price tags on the trees in Germany
> (in case you hit one and killed it you'd have to pay for it.)
> $12,000 for a TREE?! Those Germans seemed to heap on a lot
> of expensive fertilizer... ;P I'm all about clean air,
> sunshine, some water, and soil. Besides, if Marc will
> do all the labor for free, we can avoid the 100% to 200% retail
> "markup," right?
> --
>
> ------------+
> Mark Boyd
> Avenal, California, USA
>

[Bill Daniels]

"Littleboy" > wrote in message
ews.com...
> In article >,
> says...
> >
> > "Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
> > news:405fd12c$1@darkstar...
> > > LOL. I've never seen as much overengineering anywhere than
> > > on RAS and in the government. Two winches? Does the wind shift
> > > that often? How about one winch, right next to the existing
> > > power lines (at least for the darned prototype)?
> > >
> > > You guys crack me up with your "glider winch and power station
> > > industrial complex" designs. If you're that rich, good
> > > for you! ;P
> > >
> >
> > http://www.glidingmagazine.com/FeatureArticle.asp?id=293 covers just the
> > kind of thing you guys are re-inventing. By the way the unit cost them
56000
> > Euros and that was a year ago, at the time they considered it cheaper
than
> > the alternatives.
> >
> > www.elektrostartwinde.de has details on commercial availability.
> >
> > Some details
> > up to 20kw draw from the 3 phase mains supply
> > 200kw launch power
> > 850 kg max glider weight
> > 1 g initial acceleration
> > Euro 1.90 per launch including cable, winch and battery replacements
> > Electronic motor control
> >
> > There is a fixed multiple drum electric winch somewhere in Germany too.
> >
> > Ian
> >
> >
> >
> Thanks for the link. A very nicely done installation, quite
> professional.
>
> I knew that my idea was not original enough for someone not to have
> done it. It appears that one of the features liked most is the
> electronic control of the motor. That was the point I was trying to
> make. Modern electronic control of an electric motor just make so
> much sense.
>
> Some of the units I need conversions for especially a "daN", I know,
> read assume, that it is a Newton but am unfamiliar with the prefix
> "da"). There has been a big change in SI units since I was in college
> and we insular Yankees haven't done a good job of keeping up.
>
> Thanks again.

That confused me for a while too. daN = DecaNewton. 1 Newton x 10.

Do us a favor and price out the electronic controls. When I did it, the
prices were astronomical but then, I'm not sure I was looking at the right
stuff. It seems that the "elektrostartwinde" folks used variable frequency
induction motors. That seems pretty sophisticated to me.

Bill Daniels

[Littleboy]

In article >,
says...
>
> "Littleboy" > wrote in message
> ews.com...
> > In article >,
> > says...
> > >
> > > "Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
> > > news:405fd12c$1@darkstar...
> > > > LOL. I've never seen as much overengineering anywhere than
> > > > on RAS and in the government. Two winches? Does the wind shift
> > > > that often? How about one winch, right next to the existing
> > > > power lines (at least for the darned prototype)?
> > > >
> > > > You guys crack me up with your "glider winch and power station
> > > > industrial complex" designs. If you're that rich, good
> > > > for you! ;P
> > > >
> > >
> > > http://www.glidingmagazine.com/FeatureArticle.asp?id=293 covers just the
> > > kind of thing you guys are re-inventing. By the way the unit cost them
> 56000
> > > Euros and that was a year ago, at the time they considered it cheaper
> than
> > > the alternatives.
> > >
> > > www.elektrostartwinde.de has details on commercial availability.
> > >
> > > Some details
> > > up to 20kw draw from the 3 phase mains supply
> > > 200kw launch power
> > > 850 kg max glider weight
> > > 1 g initial acceleration
> > > Euro 1.90 per launch including cable, winch and battery replacements
> > > Electronic motor control
> > >
> > > There is a fixed multiple drum electric winch somewhere in Germany too.
> > >
> > > Ian
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > Thanks for the link. A very nicely done installation, quite
> > professional.
> >
> > I knew that my idea was not original enough for someone not to have
> > done it. It appears that one of the features liked most is the
> > electronic control of the motor. That was the point I was trying to
> > make. Modern electronic control of an electric motor just make so
> > much sense.
> >
> > Some of the units I need conversions for especially a "daN", I know,
> > read assume, that it is a Newton but am unfamiliar with the prefix
> > "da"). There has been a big change in SI units since I was in college
> > and we insular Yankees haven't done a good job of keeping up.
> >
> > Thanks again.
>
> That confused me for a while too. daN = DecaNewton. 1 Newton x 10.
>
> Do us a favor and price out the electronic controls. When I did it, the
> prices were astronomical but then, I'm not sure I was looking at the right
> stuff. It seems that the "elektrostartwinde" folks used variable frequency
> induction motors. That seems pretty sophisticated to me.
>
> Bill Daniels
>
>
The motors will be pretty much a standard ac induction motor. There
are motors for "inverter duty". Not sure of adder for this, but I
know that we don't make it a standard to specify inverter duty motors
when coupled to a variable frequency drive.

Actually, variable frequency drives (VFD) have made everyone's lives
much simpler. 15 years ago it VFDs were considered to be very
sophisticated, but today they're all over the place. In many
applications, if I don't see VFDs specified, I am forced to question
the overall quality of the design.

I will get a price for you as soon as I can scare up my favorite
sales engineer here.

[Bert Willing]

Savhydro (the manufacturer of this type of winch) has gone out of business.
We had such a winch in La Motte, too but never succeeded to get it back to
work when the diesel engine "exploded" because no backup from the
manufacturer anymore. Pitty though.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Herbert Kilian" > a écrit dans le message de
m...
> Dave,
> Excellent suggestion and - of course - it has been done already. In
> fact it was around 1985 or so when I flew in France each spring for a
> couple of weeks at wonderful St. Remy de Provence with about half the
> launches done off a hydrostatic winch. It was arranged exactly as you
> propose with a motor in each (large) reel, a dedicated diesel engine
> driving the pump, all on a truck chassis. Very smooth and powerful
> acceleration and launch altitudes of 400 m or 1,200 feet. Wonder if
> they still run that winch, anybody out there has an idea?
>
> Herbert
>
> >
> > Has anyone considered the use of 'Hydrostatic Pumps'
> >
> > Using the main engine to drive a hydraulic compressing
> > pump, as used on mechanical diggers etc, a hydrostatic
> > pump on each individual drum would provide the power
> > to launch the glider.
> >
> > It would remove the need for complex mechanics and
> > by a simple system of taps could drive any one of a
> > number of individual drums.
> >
> > Using deep sided drums without pay on gear would reduce
> > build costs and time.
> >
> > Building the winch on a trailer would be simple, mobile
> > and may be cheaper than using complex mechanical drives.
> > It would also be simple to maintain. I understand modern
> > pumps can be programmed and controlled electronically.
> >
> >
> > The main pumps can provide sufficient power as can
> > be seen on mechanical diggers, but they are only pumping
> > us a telescopic ram. I believe they are used on slow
> > moving agricultural equipment to provide drive to the
> > main wheels.
> >
> > The question is could the pumps provide the power and
> > speed to drive a drum for several minutes to enable
> > a glider to be launched.
> >
> > Similar pumps can be seen at
> >
> > http://www.casappa.com/
> >
> > Although I am sure they will be available throughout
> > the world.
> >
> >
> > Dave

[Littleboy]

In article >,
says...
>
> "Littleboy" > wrote in message
> ews.com...
> > In article >,
> > says...
> > >
> > > "Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
> > > news:405fd12c$1@darkstar...
> > > > LOL. I've never seen as much overengineering anywhere than
> > > > on RAS and in the government. Two winches? Does the wind shift
> > > > that often? How about one winch, right next to the existing
> > > > power lines (at least for the darned prototype)?
> > > >
> > > > You guys crack me up with your "glider winch and power station
> > > > industrial complex" designs. If you're that rich, good
> > > > for you! ;P
> > > >
> > >
> > > http://www.glidingmagazine.com/FeatureArticle.asp?id=293 covers just the
> > > kind of thing you guys are re-inventing. By the way the unit cost them
> 56000
> > > Euros and that was a year ago, at the time they considered it cheaper
> than
> > > the alternatives.
> > >
> > > www.elektrostartwinde.de has details on commercial availability.
> > >
> > > Some details
> > > up to 20kw draw from the 3 phase mains supply
> > > 200kw launch power
> > > 850 kg max glider weight
> > > 1 g initial acceleration
> > > Euro 1.90 per launch including cable, winch and battery replacements
> > > Electronic motor control
> > >
> > > There is a fixed multiple drum electric winch somewhere in Germany too.
> > >
> > > Ian
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > Thanks for the link. A very nicely done installation, quite
> > professional.
> >
> > I knew that my idea was not original enough for someone not to have
> > done it. It appears that one of the features liked most is the
> > electronic control of the motor. That was the point I was trying to
> > make. Modern electronic control of an electric motor just make so
> > much sense.
> >
> > Some of the units I need conversions for especially a "daN", I know,
> > read assume, that it is a Newton but am unfamiliar with the prefix
> > "da"). There has been a big change in SI units since I was in college
> > and we insular Yankees haven't done a good job of keeping up.
> >
> > Thanks again.
>
> That confused me for a while too. daN = DecaNewton. 1 Newton x 10.
>
> Do us a favor and price out the electronic controls.

Costs new, to contractor. Not the list price, but what I figure the
"street price" is. I could be off, but these are the figures I
personally would use for an engineering estimate.

1) VFD, Square D Altivar 66 drive, 460v, 100HP, well optioned $12,000
2) AC Motor, 460v, 100HP general purpose, totally enclosed $4,000
2a)AC Motor, 460v, 100HP inverter duty, totally enclosed $6,000

> When I did it, the prices were astronomical but then, I'm not sure I was looking at the right
> stuff. It seems that the "elektrostartwinde" folks used variable frequency
> induction motors. That seems pretty sophisticated to me.
>
> Bill Daniels
>
>

[Aardvark]

Littleboy wrote:

> In article >,
> says...
>
>>"Littleboy" > wrote in message
ews.com...
>>
>>>In article >,
says...
>>>
>>>>"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
>>>>news:405fd12c$1@darkstar...
>>>>
>>>>>LOL. I've never seen as much overengineering anywhere than
>>>>>on RAS and in the government. Two winches? Does the wind shift
>>>>>that often? How about one winch, right next to the existing
>>>>>power lines (at least for the darned prototype)?
>>>>>
>>>>>You guys crack me up with your "glider winch and power station
>>>>>industrial complex" designs. If you're that rich, good
>>>>>for you! ;P
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>http://www.glidingmagazine.com/FeatureArticle.asp?id=293 covers just the
>>>>kind of thing you guys are re-inventing. By the way the unit cost them
>>
>>56000
>>
>>>>Euros and that was a year ago, at the time they considered it cheaper
>>
>>than
>>
>>>>the alternatives.
>>>>
>>>>www.elektrostartwinde.de has details on commercial availability.
>>>>
>>>>Some details
>>>>up to 20kw draw from the 3 phase mains supply
>>>>200kw launch power
>>>>850 kg max glider weight
>>>>1 g initial acceleration
>>>>Euro 1.90 per launch including cable, winch and battery replacements
>>>>Electronic motor control
>>>>
>>>>There is a fixed multiple drum electric winch somewhere in Germany too.
>>>>
>>>>Ian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks for the link. A very nicely done installation, quite
>>>professional.
>>>
>>>I knew that my idea was not original enough for someone not to have
>>>done it. It appears that one of the features liked most is the
>>>electronic control of the motor. That was the point I was trying to
>>>make. Modern electronic control of an electric motor just make so
>>>much sense.
>>>
>>>Some of the units I need conversions for especially a "daN", I know,
>>>read assume, that it is a Newton but am unfamiliar with the prefix
>>>"da"). There has been a big change in SI units since I was in college
>>>and we insular Yankees haven't done a good job of keeping up.
>>>
>>>Thanks again.
>>
>>That confused me for a while too. daN = DecaNewton. 1 Newton x 10.
>>
>>Do us a favor and price out the electronic controls.
>
>
> Costs new, to contractor. Not the list price, but what I figure the
> "street price" is. I could be off, but these are the figures I
> personally would use for an engineering estimate.
>
> 1) VFD, Square D Altivar 66 drive, 460v, 100HP, well optioned $12,000
> 2) AC Motor, 460v, 100HP general purpose, totally enclosed $4,000
> 2a)AC Motor, 460v, 100HP inverter duty, totally enclosed $6,000
>
>

The DC motors used on the dragsters go for $1400
One such motor at http://www.go-ev.com/motors-warp.html


WW

[Ian Forbes]

Mark Zivley wrote:

> This project should probably be moved to a slightly different forum
> like a yahoo group where people interested in participating can do so
> without
> filling up RAS. This also allows the sharing of files and even voting
> on ideas as the project starts to take shape. We're definitely onto
> something here, lets get started. We should start by doing some
> deciding as to what will be designed. 1 or 2 or more drums.....

Now you are talking!

Lets get the fundamentals right. We want a design that is easy to build,
not too expensive, simple to operate, easy to maintain and with safety
standards to meet current best practice. Performance should be capable
of launching a glass 2 seater trainer to a hight not less than 1/3 of
the runway length in zero wind conditions.

I vote for a big block V8 petrol motor powering a double drum winch. For
the guys who want to talk about exotics electric winches and diesels
with modified ECU's - go for it but lets separate the threads. I think
the successful 'one design' winch is going to run on petrol and will be
made from readily available hardware. If we have any spare cash left in
the budget we will spend it on plasma rope.

As a starting point, lets get some specs on winches that have been built
already together with performances achieved. We need to start off with
parameters like engine capacity and size, drum dimensions, final drive
ratios, gearbox/torque converter details and the source make and model
of the components used.

Then we need detail engineering drawings for the clever bits. Winch drum
axle mods, guillotines, guide pulleys. These should best be based on
proven designs. Details for a Skylaunch like throttle control would be
nice. Good engineering detail for the safety items like the operator's
cage and cable guards might save a few home builders from unexpected
injury.

The engineering should accommodate a choice of cables. Single strand,
multistrand or plasma. We need to spec those too.

We should also put together a "bill of materials" for anybody planning
on establishing a winching operation. I am thinking of a comprehensive
list of things like weak links, rings, 'chute, snake, signal lights,
radios, cable retrieve vehicle... That in itself would at least allow
for drawing up a proper budget.

As for a forum - if we are going to move off RAS, Al's gliderforum.com
might be a good home. If we want to run off an e-mail list, I can
probably make a plan to host it. We will also need a repository for
information - a web site - perhaps a "wikki".

Finally we need to establish some ground rules regarding copyright and
ownership of the design. My vote is to follow the "Open Source" model
used by Linux etc. Publish everything and allow anybody to use it - but
under the condition they publish details of what they build and how
well it works.

Who's in?

Ian

[Bill Daniels]

"Littleboy" > wrote in message > Costs new, to
contractor. Not the list price, but what I figure the
> "street price" is. I could be off, but these are the figures I
> personally would use for an engineering estimate.
>
> 1) VFD, Square D Altivar 66 drive, 460v, 100HP, well optioned $12,000
> 2) AC Motor, 460v, 100HP general purpose, totally enclosed $4,000
> 2a)AC Motor, 460v, 100HP inverter duty, totally enclosed $6,000
>
100 HP ain't gonna do it. We need 250 HP anyway to equal a 350 - 400 HP
Diesel. 250 HP is going to be $20,000 and the frequency converter control
box is going to be another $15,000. When I went through this, I stopped
counting at about $60,000 just for the power source. Diesel is going to be
a lot cheaper I think.

Bill Daniels

[Dave Martin]

Some years ago when our Ford V8 and straight Jaguar
engines were falling apart someone suggested we went
on to Chevrolet engines 5.7l.

These were originally sourced from ex US Airforce buses,
like the typical US school bus. We bought the bus
took the engine out then scrapped the remains of the
bus. They were cheap even with a bus attached!

As far as I can recall they engines went straight in
the winch and then as they got tired were given a 'stock
car' tune and with heavy duty pistons etc.

Over about 15 years the engines have given excellent
service.The automatic gear box that came with the engine
is used for the drive and the drive lever fixed so
the winch driver can only engage neutral or drive.
The drive to the prop shaft can be tailored to any
axle with a bit of skilled welding.

Our main winches are a Skylaunch and Tost with the
Chevrolet engine. The engine in the Tost sits on a
sledge with gearbox and radiator attached, so if anything
breaks it can be easily removed and a spare slid in.
The current engine runs on gas and will launch A DG
500 with no problems.

We went for this engine because it is readily available,
either new, from a bus or re conditioned. Spare parts
are also available. It can also be easily tuned and
played with to produce extra power

Not sure what the full description of the engine is
but this US site found by a simple internet search

http://www.automotix.com/engines_by_size/chevy-gm_v8-engines_t---C
HV-350RLB-4.html

This looks like the engines we use. The prices also
look very reasonable.

Dave

[John Galloway]

Skylaunch already have developed, trouble-shot and
built 30 or so examples of the big V8 petrol/LPG twin
drum, controlled launch power winch design you seem
to be re-inventing. It sems sensible to use this experience
so why not just buy one, investigate building them
under licence, get a kit from them, or get Mike Grove's
advice on a consultancy basis?

As one of a sub-committee looking at the Supacat replacement
we have decided to recommend a Skylaunch to the Board
of Directors of our club as the only realistic option
available worldwide to improve on our current Supacat
diesel 180hp winch. The cost will be about £60,000
including options for the 8.2 litre LPG GM marine V8
version. The Supacat made a profit of £29,000 last
year and £16,000 in 2002 - after paying the cost of
full time professional winch drivers, maintence and
depreciation (from about 8-9000 launches I think).
The new winch will be paid off within a very few few
years. Busy, reliable, modern winches are just a license
to print money.

It is worth having a look at the Skylaunch german text
site as it has a whole lot more useful information
than the UK site about the various kit forms of the
Skylaunch and prices etc. It also has pictures of
the more basic Skylaunch 3 version.

http://www.skylaunch.de/

http://www.skylaunchuk.com/

John Galloway




At 22:18 23 March 2004, Ian Forbes wrote:
>Now you are talking!
>
>Lets get the fundamentals right. We want a design that
>is easy to build,
>not too expensive, simple to operate, easy to maintain
>and with safety
>standards to meet current best practice. Performance
>should be capable
>of launching a glass 2 seater trainer to a hight not
>less than 1/3 of
>the runway length in zero wind conditions.
>
>I vote for a big block V8 petrol motor powering a double
>drum winch. For
>the guys who want to talk about exotics electric winches
>and diesels
>with modified ECU's - go for it but lets separate the
>threads. I think
>the successful 'one design' winch is going to run on
>petrol and will be
>made from readily available hardware. If we have any
>spare cash left in
>the budget we will spend it on plasma rope.
>
>As a starting point, lets get some specs on winches
>that have been built
>already together with performances achieved. We need
>to start off with
>parameters like engine capacity and size, drum dimensions,
>final drive
>ratios, gearbox/torque converter details and the source
>make and model
>of the components used.
>
>Then we need detail engineering drawings for the clever
>bits. Winch drum
>axle mods, guillotines, guide pulleys. These should
>best be based on
>proven designs. Details for a Skylaunch like throttle
>control would be
>nice. Good engineering detail for the safety items
>like the operator's
>cage and cable guards might save a few home builders
>from unexpected
>injury.
>
>The engineering should accommodate a choice of cables.
>Single strand,
>multistrand or plasma. We need to spec those too.
>
>We should also put together a 'bill of materials' for
>anybody planning
>on establishing a winching operation. I am thinking
>of a comprehensive
>list of things like weak links, rings, 'chute, snake,
>signal lights,
>radios, cable retrieve vehicle... That in itself would
>at least allow
>for drawing up a proper budget.
>
>As for a forum - if we are going to move off RAS, Al's
>gliderforum.com
>might be a good home. If we want to run off an e-mail
>list, I can
>probably make a plan to host it. We will also need
>a repository for
>information - a web site - perhaps a 'wikki'.
>
>Finally we need to establish some ground rules regarding
>copyright and
>ownership of the design. My vote is to follow the 'Open
>Source' model
>used by Linux etc. Publish everything and allow anybody
>to use it - but
>under the condition they publish details of what they
>build and how
>well it works.
>
>Who's in?
>
>Ian
>
>

[Littleboy]

In article >,
says...
>
> "Littleboy" > wrote in message > Costs new, to
> contractor. Not the list price, but what I figure the
> > "street price" is. I could be off, but these are the figures I
> > personally would use for an engineering estimate.
> >
> > 1) VFD, Square D Altivar 66 drive, 460v, 100HP, well optioned $12,000
> > 2) AC Motor, 460v, 100HP general purpose, totally enclosed $4,000
> > 2a)AC Motor, 460v, 100HP inverter duty, totally enclosed $6,000
> >
> 100 HP ain't gonna do it. We need 250 HP anyway to equal a 350 - 400 HP
> Diesel. 250 HP is going to be $20,000 and the frequency converter control
> box is going to be another $15,000. When I went through this, I stopped
> counting at about $60,000 just for the power source. Diesel is going to be
> a lot cheaper I think.
>
> Bill Daniels
>
>
No doubt about it. The broader engineering question is, does the
increased value of ease and sophistication of control inherent in an
electric winch, plus its lower life cycle costs, offset the lower
first cost of an engine driven winch.

This is a perennial engineering issue, first cost, value and life
cycle costs. As has been shown by the numerous winching solutions
used by various clubs presented here, everyone will have to make
there own decisions.

The chassis mounted winch from Germany,
http://www.beepworld.de/members28/onkelmaggus/ shown here, indicates
they expect a winch life of thirty years. It appears that these
individuals have voted for life cycle costs.

And given the winch duty cycles presented here, I am far from
convinced that diesel is a viable economic solution. I would be more
inclined to go to spark ignition using lpg as fuel.

Anyway, I've beat this horse all I'm inclined to do. I do appreciate
everyones feedback.

[Bill Daniels]

"Ian Forbes" > wrote in message
...
> Mark Zivley wrote:
>
> > This project should probably be moved to a slightly different forum
> > like a yahoo group where people interested in participating can do so
> > without
> > filling up RAS. This also allows the sharing of files and even voting
> > on ideas as the project starts to take shape. We're definitely onto
> > something here, lets get started. We should start by doing some
> > deciding as to what will be designed. 1 or 2 or more drums.....
>
> Now you are talking!
>
> Lets get the fundamentals right. We want a design that is easy to build,
> not too expensive, simple to operate, easy to maintain and with safety
> standards to meet current best practice. Performance should be capable
> of launching a glass 2 seater trainer to a hight not less than 1/3 of
> the runway length in zero wind conditions.
>
> I vote for a big block V8 petrol motor powering a double drum winch. For
> the guys who want to talk about exotics electric winches and diesels
> with modified ECU's - go for it but lets separate the threads. I think
> the successful 'one design' winch is going to run on petrol and will be
> made from readily available hardware. If we have any spare cash left in
> the budget we will spend it on plasma rope.
>
> As a starting point, lets get some specs on winches that have been built
> already together with performances achieved. We need to start off with
> parameters like engine capacity and size, drum dimensions, final drive
> ratios, gearbox/torque converter details and the source make and model
> of the components used.
>
> Then we need detail engineering drawings for the clever bits. Winch drum
> axle mods, guillotines, guide pulleys. These should best be based on
> proven designs. Details for a Skylaunch like throttle control would be
> nice. Good engineering detail for the safety items like the operator's
> cage and cable guards might save a few home builders from unexpected
> injury.
>
> The engineering should accommodate a choice of cables. Single strand,
> multistrand or plasma. We need to spec those too.
>
> We should also put together a "bill of materials" for anybody planning
> on establishing a winching operation. I am thinking of a comprehensive
> list of things like weak links, rings, 'chute, snake, signal lights,
> radios, cable retrieve vehicle... That in itself would at least allow
> for drawing up a proper budget.
>
> As for a forum - if we are going to move off RAS, Al's gliderforum.com
> might be a good home. If we want to run off an e-mail list, I can
> probably make a plan to host it. We will also need a repository for
> information - a web site - perhaps a "wikki".
>
> Finally we need to establish some ground rules regarding copyright and
> ownership of the design. My vote is to follow the "Open Source" model
> used by Linux etc. Publish everything and allow anybody to use it - but
> under the condition they publish details of what they build and how
> well it works.
>
> Who's in?
>
> Ian
>

Ian. I admire your enthusiasm and support your ideas, but the economics need
a bit of discussion.

Winches are VERY profitable. The operational cost is less than $2US per
launch and most people will find $10 is a reasonable launch fee. That's a
500% profit with a volunteer crew in a club setting. The Return On
Investment for a $30,000 winch is just 63 operating days figuring an average
of 60 launches a day. A dual drum winch in a training environment can do a
LOT more than 60 launches a day.

After the club has its ROI it can buy a new glider every year with the
profits. That's the REAL secret of how those European clubs own all that
nice glass. They put their money into gliders instead of air tow fees.

My concern is that by focusing on the "build it cheap" aspect, the
productivity of the machine will be lost. That's where American winches
have gone wrong in the past. Just a couple of weekends lost to winch
repairs is significant. If the "Hassle Factor" is too large, people will go
back to air tow.

Build it right, make it reliable and as productive as possible no matter if
it costs more to build. If a diesel engine is more productive than a spark
ignition engine then pay the extra money for one. If Spectra improves the
operation by reducing cable breaks and tangles then pony up for it. The ROI
comes very quickly. Almost ANYTHING that increases the number of launches
per day or makes the whole operation easier and more pleasant is worth the
investment.

Bill Daniels

[Mark Zivley]

We all know "cheap" is a relative word. Cheaper than a Skylaunch leaves
a lot of ground. Just like any design project, we need to start with
some goals.

Reality is that a 2 drum winch probably is the peak in operational
efficiency coupled with simplicity of design. Piggot's book recommends
multiple 2 drum winches over winch designs with more than 3 drums.
Safety for the operator is paramount and clearly we need to be providing
enough power to handle a glider on a Black weak link. In general this
design should keep cost in mind, but surely as any club or group starts
to embark on construction they will have a lot of latitude as to how
they control costs. Do they buy a crate motor for $3-4k or buy that
little old lady's Cadillac for $500.

However, the first thing needs to be a forum off of RAS where we can
work. Ulrich started this, so I'll defer to his preferences. The Yahoo
groups are free, offer file sharing (I think) and it's easy to set up
topics to be voted on by the members. With that, we can start nailing
down the design goals.

Bill Daniels wrote:
> "Ian Forbes" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Mark Zivley wrote:
>>
>>
>>>This project should probably be moved to a slightly different forum
>>>like a yahoo group where people interested in participating can do so
>>>without
>>>filling up RAS. This also allows the sharing of files and even voting
>>>on ideas as the project starts to take shape. We're definitely onto
>>>something here, lets get started. We should start by doing some
>>>deciding as to what will be designed. 1 or 2 or more drums.....
>>
>>Now you are talking!
>>
>>Lets get the fundamentals right. We want a design that is easy to build,
>>not too expensive, simple to operate, easy to maintain and with safety
>>standards to meet current best practice. Performance should be capable
>>of launching a glass 2 seater trainer to a hight not less than 1/3 of
>>the runway length in zero wind conditions.
>>
>>I vote for a big block V8 petrol motor powering a double drum winch. For
>>the guys who want to talk about exotics electric winches and diesels
>>with modified ECU's - go for it but lets separate the threads. I think
>>the successful 'one design' winch is going to run on petrol and will be
>>made from readily available hardware. If we have any spare cash left in
>>the budget we will spend it on plasma rope.
>>
>>As a starting point, lets get some specs on winches that have been built
>>already together with performances achieved. We need to start off with
>>parameters like engine capacity and size, drum dimensions, final drive
>>ratios, gearbox/torque converter details and the source make and model
>>of the components used.
>>
>>Then we need detail engineering drawings for the clever bits. Winch drum
>>axle mods, guillotines, guide pulleys. These should best be based on
>>proven designs. Details for a Skylaunch like throttle control would be
>>nice. Good engineering detail for the safety items like the operator's
>>cage and cable guards might save a few home builders from unexpected
>>injury.
>>
>>The engineering should accommodate a choice of cables. Single strand,
>>multistrand or plasma. We need to spec those too.
>>
>>We should also put together a "bill of materials" for anybody planning
>>on establishing a winching operation. I am thinking of a comprehensive
>>list of things like weak links, rings, 'chute, snake, signal lights,
>>radios, cable retrieve vehicle... That in itself would at least allow
>>for drawing up a proper budget.
>>
>>As for a forum - if we are going to move off RAS, Al's gliderforum.com
>>might be a good home. If we want to run off an e-mail list, I can
>>probably make a plan to host it. We will also need a repository for
>>information - a web site - perhaps a "wikki".
>>
>>Finally we need to establish some ground rules regarding copyright and
>>ownership of the design. My vote is to follow the "Open Source" model
>>used by Linux etc. Publish everything and allow anybody to use it - but
>>under the condition they publish details of what they build and how
>>well it works.
>>
>>Who's in?
>>
>>Ian
>>
>
>
> Ian. I admire your enthusiasm and support your ideas, but the economics need
> a bit of discussion.
>
> Winches are VERY profitable. The operational cost is less than $2US per
> launch and most people will find $10 is a reasonable launch fee. That's a
> 500% profit with a volunteer crew in a club setting. The Return On
> Investment for a $30,000 winch is just 63 operating days figuring an average
> of 60 launches a day. A dual drum winch in a training environment can do a
> LOT more than 60 launches a day.
>
> After the club has its ROI it can buy a new glider every year with the
> profits. That's the REAL secret of how those European clubs own all that
> nice glass. They put their money into gliders instead of air tow fees.
>
> My concern is that by focusing on the "build it cheap" aspect, the
> productivity of the machine will be lost. That's where American winches
> have gone wrong in the past. Just a couple of weekends lost to winch
> repairs is significant. If the "Hassle Factor" is too large, people will go
> back to air tow.
>
> Build it right, make it reliable and as productive as possible no matter if
> it costs more to build. If a diesel engine is more productive than a spark
> ignition engine then pay the extra money for one. If Spectra improves the
> operation by reducing cable breaks and tangles then pony up for it. The ROI
> comes very quickly. Almost ANYTHING that increases the number of launches
> per day or makes the whole operation easier and more pleasant is worth the
> investment.
>
> Bill Daniels
>

[Jim Vincent]

In my experience, one drum is pretty adequate.

Most fields in the US are limited in length, so the launch height is usually
just enough for a pattern. I find with one drum I can launch a ship, retrieve
the chute, and have be back at the launch point just as the glider lands. We
turn the glider around (usually lands cross wind), and we're ready to go with
another. We achieve about 6-7 launches per hour this way at my field..until
two or three other people turn up (with little experience but they're BS'ed the
membership into thinking they know what they're doing) and our rate goes down
to about 3 an hour.

Jim Vincent
CFIG
N483SZ

[Ulrich Neumann]

Dave,

there are several of these hydrostatic winches around, one of them at
my old club in Germany - see the Skylaunch album under K,
Kamp-Lintfort.
This winch is a technical marvel but also very expensive to maintain
(Fluid, filters, HP-Hose, etc.) Another one was built in cooperation
with Danfos, I believe. I think this is a very complex design, too
complex for a group of amateurs to build.

Ulrich Neumann


Dave Martin > wrote in message >...
> Unless a mass batteries are used, the logistic of supplying
> power to several possible winch stations around and
> airfield to provide a days winching seems very expensive,
> although a 'plug in and play' system would be an ideal
> way of operating.
>
> Has anyone considered the use of 'Hydrostatic Pumps'
>
> Using the main engine to drive a hydraulic compressing
> pump, as used on mechanical diggers etc, a hydrostatic
> pump on each individual drum would provide the power
> to launch the glider.
>
> It would remove the need for complex mechanics and
> by a simple system of taps could drive any one of a
> number of individual drums.
>
> Using deep sided drums without pay on gear would reduce
> build costs and time.
>
> Building the winch on a trailer would be simple, mobile
> and may be cheaper than using complex mechanical drives.
> It would also be simple to maintain. I understand modern
> pumps can be programmed and controlled electronically.
>
>
> The main pumps can provide sufficient power as can
> be seen on mechanical diggers, but they are only pumping
> us a telescopic ram. I believe they are used on slow
> moving agricultural equipment to provide drive to the
> main wheels.
>
> The question is could the pumps provide the power and
> speed to drive a drum for several minutes to enable
> a glider to be launched.
>
> Similar pumps can be seen at
>
> http://www.casappa.com/
>
> Although I am sure they will be available throughout
> the world.
>
>
> Dave

[Bill Daniels]

"Jim Vincent" > wrote in message
...
> In my experience, one drum is pretty adequate.
>
> Most fields in the US are limited in length, so the launch height is
usually
> just enough for a pattern. I find with one drum I can launch a ship,
retrieve
> the chute, and have be back at the launch point just as the glider lands.
We
> turn the glider around (usually lands cross wind), and we're ready to go
with
> another. We achieve about 6-7 launches per hour this way at my
field..until
> two or three other people turn up (with little experience but they're
BS'ed the
> membership into thinking they know what they're doing) and our rate goes
down
> to about 3 an hour.
>
> Jim Vincent
> CFIG
> N483SZ
>

Jim, with one glider, one drum works fine. The length of the field doesn't
matter since with a longer field, the glider goes higher and stays up longer
so the wire is still back at the launch site in time for the glider landing
if the retrieve driver hustles. If you are launching from grass, all those
wire retrieves are sure tearing up the turf.

My most recent winching is with 5000 feet of wire and 2000 feet AGL is a
common release height. If there are any thermals, the glider will contact
one 3 out of 4 launches and soar away. In the western US there are many
runways 7000 feet or longer where winching is possible. You're talking
3000' AGL launches with that much room.

With a gaggle of gliders waiting to be launched you need the efficiency of
multiple drums or multiple winches. The real issue is often not how many
launches you can make in a day, it's how fast can you get everybody launched
when the thermals start. I've read of several winch operations that achieve
a sustained launch rate of one every two minutes.

Bill Daniels

[F.L. Whiteley]

I second the yahoo groups.

Frank Whiteley

"Mark Zivley" > wrote in message
m...
> We all know "cheap" is a relative word. Cheaper than a Skylaunch leaves
> a lot of ground. Just like any design project, we need to start with
> some goals.
>
> Reality is that a 2 drum winch probably is the peak in operational
> efficiency coupled with simplicity of design. Piggot's book recommends
> multiple 2 drum winches over winch designs with more than 3 drums.
> Safety for the operator is paramount and clearly we need to be providing
> enough power to handle a glider on a Black weak link. In general this
> design should keep cost in mind, but surely as any club or group starts
> to embark on construction they will have a lot of latitude as to how
> they control costs. Do they buy a crate motor for $3-4k or buy that
> little old lady's Cadillac for $500.
>
> However, the first thing needs to be a forum off of RAS where we can
> work. Ulrich started this, so I'll defer to his preferences. The Yahoo
> groups are free, offer file sharing (I think) and it's easy to set up
> topics to be voted on by the members. With that, we can start nailing
> down the design goals.
>
> Bill Daniels wrote:
> > "Ian Forbes" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>Mark Zivley wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>This project should probably be moved to a slightly different forum
> >>>like a yahoo group where people interested in participating can do so
> >>>without
> >>>filling up RAS. This also allows the sharing of files and even voting
> >>>on ideas as the project starts to take shape. We're definitely onto
> >>>something here, lets get started. We should start by doing some
> >>>deciding as to what will be designed. 1 or 2 or more drums.....
> >>
> >>Now you are talking!
> >>
> >>Lets get the fundamentals right. We want a design that is easy to build,
> >>not too expensive, simple to operate, easy to maintain and with safety
> >>standards to meet current best practice. Performance should be capable
> >>of launching a glass 2 seater trainer to a hight not less than 1/3 of
> >>the runway length in zero wind conditions.
> >>
> >>I vote for a big block V8 petrol motor powering a double drum winch. For
> >>the guys who want to talk about exotics electric winches and diesels
> >>with modified ECU's - go for it but lets separate the threads. I think
> >>the successful 'one design' winch is going to run on petrol and will be
> >>made from readily available hardware. If we have any spare cash left in
> >>the budget we will spend it on plasma rope.
> >>
> >>As a starting point, lets get some specs on winches that have been built
> >>already together with performances achieved. We need to start off with
> >>parameters like engine capacity and size, drum dimensions, final drive
> >>ratios, gearbox/torque converter details and the source make and model
> >>of the components used.
> >>
> >>Then we need detail engineering drawings for the clever bits. Winch drum
> >>axle mods, guillotines, guide pulleys. These should best be based on
> >>proven designs. Details for a Skylaunch like throttle control would be
> >>nice. Good engineering detail for the safety items like the operator's
> >>cage and cable guards might save a few home builders from unexpected
> >>injury.
> >>
> >>The engineering should accommodate a choice of cables. Single strand,
> >>multistrand or plasma. We need to spec those too.
> >>
> >>We should also put together a "bill of materials" for anybody planning
> >>on establishing a winching operation. I am thinking of a comprehensive
> >>list of things like weak links, rings, 'chute, snake, signal lights,
> >>radios, cable retrieve vehicle... That in itself would at least allow
> >>for drawing up a proper budget.
> >>
> >>As for a forum - if we are going to move off RAS, Al's gliderforum.com
> >>might be a good home. If we want to run off an e-mail list, I can
> >>probably make a plan to host it. We will also need a repository for
> >>information - a web site - perhaps a "wikki".
> >>
> >>Finally we need to establish some ground rules regarding copyright and
> >>ownership of the design. My vote is to follow the "Open Source" model
> >>used by Linux etc. Publish everything and allow anybody to use it - but
> >>under the condition they publish details of what they build and how
> >>well it works.
> >>
> >>Who's in?
> >>
> >>Ian
> >>
> >
> >
> > Ian. I admire your enthusiasm and support your ideas, but the economics
need
> > a bit of discussion.
> >
> > Winches are VERY profitable. The operational cost is less than $2US per
> > launch and most people will find $10 is a reasonable launch fee. That's
a
> > 500% profit with a volunteer crew in a club setting. The Return On
> > Investment for a $30,000 winch is just 63 operating days figuring an
average
> > of 60 launches a day. A dual drum winch in a training environment can
do a
> > LOT more than 60 launches a day.
> >
> > After the club has its ROI it can buy a new glider every year with the
> > profits. That's the REAL secret of how those European clubs own all
that
> > nice glass. They put their money into gliders instead of air tow fees.
> >
> > My concern is that by focusing on the "build it cheap" aspect, the
> > productivity of the machine will be lost. That's where American winches
> > have gone wrong in the past. Just a couple of weekends lost to winch
> > repairs is significant. If the "Hassle Factor" is too large, people
will go
> > back to air tow.
> >
> > Build it right, make it reliable and as productive as possible no matter
if
> > it costs more to build. If a diesel engine is more productive than a
spark
> > ignition engine then pay the extra money for one. If Spectra improves
the
> > operation by reducing cable breaks and tangles then pony up for it. The
ROI
> > comes very quickly. Almost ANYTHING that increases the number of
launches
> > per day or makes the whole operation easier and more pleasant is worth
the
> > investment.
> >
> > Bill Daniels
> >
>

[F.L. Whiteley]

"Dave Martin" > wrote in message
...
> Some years ago when our Ford V8 and straight Jaguar
> engines were falling apart someone suggested we went
> on to Chevrolet engines 5.7l.
>
> These were originally sourced from ex US Airforce buses,
> like the typical US school bus. We bought the bus
> took the engine out then scrapped the remains of the
> bus. They were cheap even with a bus attached!
>
> As far as I can recall they engines went straight in
> the winch and then as they got tired were given a 'stock
> car' tune and with heavy duty pistons etc.
>
> Over about 15 years the engines have given excellent
> service.The automatic gear box that came with the engine
> is used for the drive and the drive lever fixed so
> the winch driver can only engage neutral or drive.
> The drive to the prop shaft can be tailored to any
> axle with a bit of skilled welding.
>
> Our main winches are a Skylaunch and Tost with the
> Chevrolet engine. The engine in the Tost sits on a
> sledge with gearbox and radiator attached, so if anything
> breaks it can be easily removed and a spare slid in.
> The current engine runs on gas and will launch A DG
> 500 with no problems.
>
> We went for this engine because it is readily available,
> either new, from a bus or re conditioned. Spare parts
> are also available. It can also be easily tuned and
> played with to produce extra power
>
> Not sure what the full description of the engine is
> but this US site found by a simple internet search
>
> http://www.automotix.com/engines_by_size/chevy-gm_v8-engines_t---C
> HV-350RLB-4.html
>
> This looks like the engines we use. The prices also
> look very reasonable.
>
> Dave
>
Great engine, but barely adequate at 5500MSL with normal aspiration.

Frank Whiteley

[Craig Freeman]

"Bill Daniels" > wrote in message >...
> "Ian Forbes" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Mark Zivley wrote:

> >
> > As a starting point, lets get some specs on winches that have been built
> > already together with performances achieved. We need to start off with
> > parameters like engine capacity and size, drum dimensions, final drive
> > ratios, gearbox/torque converter details and the source make and model
> > of the components used.
> >
> > Then we need detail engineering drawings for the clever bits. Winch drum
> > axle mods, guillotines, guide pulleys. These should best be based on
> > proven designs. Details for a Skylaunch like throttle control would be
> > nice. Good engineering detail for the safety items like the operator's
> > cage and cable guards might save a few home builders from unexpected
> > injury.
> >
> > The engineering should accommodate a choice of cables. Single strand,
> > multistrand or plasma. We need to spec those too.
> >
> > We should also put together a "bill of materials" for anybody planning
> > on establishing a winching operation. I am thinking of a comprehensive
> > list of things like weak links, rings, 'chute, snake, signal lights,
> > radios, cable retrieve vehicle... That in itself would at least allow
> > for drawing up a proper budget.
> >
> > As for a forum - if we are going to move off RAS, Al's gliderforum.com
> > might be a good home. If we want to run off an e-mail list, I can
> > probably make a plan to host it. We will also need a repository for
> > information - a web site - perhaps a "wikki".
> >
> > Finally we need to establish some ground rules regarding copyright and
> > ownership of the design. My vote is to follow the "Open Source" model
> > used by Linux etc. Publish everything and allow anybody to use it - but
> > under the condition they publish details of what they build and how
> > well it works.
> >
> > Who's in?
> >
> > Ian
> >
>
> Ian. I admire your enthusiasm and support your ideas, but the economics need
> a bit of discussion.
>
> Winches are VERY profitable. The operational cost is less than $2US per
> launch and most people will find $10 is a reasonable launch fee. That's a
> 500% profit with a volunteer crew in a club setting. The Return On
> Investment for a $30,000 winch is just 63 operating days figuring an average
> of 60 launches a day. A dual drum winch in a training environment can do a
> LOT more than 60 launches a day.

Yes, Yes, winches are profitable. That's a huge thing for any club to
consider. Our winch will continue to revive our club. Without it we would
be dead. You can make a go with as few as 15 or 20 members because
flying produces revenue as opposed to breaking even or losing revenue
and relying on dues for income.
>
> After the club has its ROI it can buy a new glider every year with the
> profits. That's the REAL secret of how those European clubs own all that
> nice glass. They put their money into gliders instead of air tow fees.
>
> My concern is that by focusing on the "build it cheap" aspect, the
> productivity of the machine will be lost. That's where American winches
> have gone wrong in the past. Just a couple of weekends lost to winch
> repairs is significant. If the "Hassle Factor" is too large, people will go
> back to air tow.

After running one of those cobbled up underpowered wire eating monsters
for a season I fully understand why poeple in the US have been turned off
on winching. Way to many winches have been built with the "kics" method.
Read carefully that's "kics" (keep it cheap stupid).

> Build it right, make it reliable and as productive as possible no matter if
> it costs more to build. If a diesel engine is more productive than a spark
> ignition engine then pay the extra money for one. If Spectra improves the
> operation by reducing cable breaks and tangles then pony up for it. The ROI
> comes very quickly. Almost ANYTHING that increases the number of launches
> per day or makes the whole operation easier and more pleasant is worth the
> investment.
>
> Bill Daniels

I think that there seems to be an understanding that the winches are
for the most part rusting down in the US because they were poorly designed
and the group is now looking for a good dependable design. Fortunatly I've seen
little emphesis placed on being cheap in this thread. FYI the PSA winch
see www.permiansoaring.us has all new or professionaly rebuilt everything,
single drum, plasma rope, and could be duplicated for around $14,000.00 by
amatuers utilizing fabricators to build drums and wire guides which were
the only parts requiring machine work other than the engine rebuild which
was also farmed out to a local engine rebuilder. This was at one time in the
recent past considered a large amount to spend. Good news is, it's really
a good winch. Add a few more good ideas and refinements and you could have a
easily duplicated two drum winch for less than $25,000.00 and it would
really perform. I think that this would be a good starting point. In the
future as winching becomes more popular that $25,000.00 may seem like
chump change, but for now it's enough to build a winch that will provide
years of safe dependable launches. OK I'm in.

Craig-

[Marc Ramsey]

F.L. Whiteley wrote:
> I second the yahoo groups.

I've created a new Yahoo group "Winch Design" in the "Soaring" category.
To subscribe send an email to ,
or visit the group page at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/winchdesign/

I am the list owner, I'll limit my moderation activities to making sure
that new members are, in fact, glider pilots or other interested
parties. Otherwise, have at it...

Marc

[Dave Martin]

At 04:48 24 March 2004, Bill Daniels wrote:
>
Jim, with one glider, one drum works fine. The length
of the field doesn't
>matter since with a longer field, the glider goes higher
>and stays up longer
>so the wire is still back at the launch site in time
>for the glider landing
>if the retrieve driver hustles. If you are launching
>from grass, all those
>wire retrieves are sure tearing up the turf.
>
>My most recent winching is with 5000 feet of wire and
>2000 feet AGL is a
>common release height. If there are any thermals,
>the glider will contact
>one 3 out of 4 launches and soar away. In the western
>US there are many
>runways 7000 feet or longer where winching is possible.
> You're talking
>3000' AGL launches with that much room.
>
>With a gaggle of gliders waiting to be launched you
>need the efficiency of
>multiple drums or multiple winches. The real issue
>is often not how many
>launches you can make in a day, it's how fast can you
>get everybody launched
>when the thermals start. I've read of several winch
>operations that achieve
>a sustained launch rate of one every two minutes.
>
>Bill Daniels
>
Bill

Flying from a grass/winch site, the wire does little
damage to the grass, the biggest problem is the cable
retrieve vehicle creating tracks.

We use a Landrover with low pressure tyres.

I agree with the last paragraph on efficiency and launching
a gaggle of gliders when the soaing starts, but what
is also require is an efficient method of delivering
the cables to the launch point. If the winch driver
does it then you have to wait for him to return to
the winch. The longer the airfied the longer the wait.

If the lanch crew are switched on then by the time
the retrieve driver gets back to the winch, the cables
should have been used.

This ties up one man for as long as there are gliders
waiting to be launched it is as big a factor as having
a good winch and driver. Maybe one reason why clubs
prefer aerotowing, it requires less man power.

The retrieve vehicle driver always wants to stop at
the launch point and chat rather than return to the
winch end to wait.

The Long Mynd use a retrieve winch which with a good
crew is very efficient and can work with a single drum
winch.

Efficiencey rates vary but with a switched on crew
periods one launch every 4-5 minutes can be sustained
for several hours average. This can be speed up slightly
and some UK will claim better that this, but for normal
club operations a higher rate is rarely required.

Still better than one tug where the tow to 2000 feet
takes about 7 minutes.

Dave

[Bill Daniels]

"Dave Martin" > wrote in message
news:c3rjqe$2bh8m7
> The Long Mynd use a retrieve winch which with a good
> crew is very efficient and can work with a single drum
> winch.
>
> Dave
>


A visit to Long Mynd is on my "must do" list.

It has been my impression that while a retrieve winch works well when
launching from a ridge top where the height gained in the winch launch is
unimportant, lifting the retrieve wire is a hindrance when launching from
flatland where every foot of release height is very important.

What I don't know is how much hindrance. Do you think a retrieve winch
would be a good idea with 6000 feet of winch cable? If so, what is the
longest wire where a retrieve winch is practical?

Bill Daniels

[Andreas Maurer]

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 16:42:31 -0700, "Bill Daniels"
> wrote:


>Winches are VERY profitable. The operational cost is less than $2US per
>launch and most people will find $10 is a reasonable launch fee. That's a
>500% profit with a volunteer crew in a club setting. The Return On
>Investment for a $30,000 winch is just 63 operating days figuring an average
>of 60 launches a day. A dual drum winch in a training environment can do a
>LOT more than 60 launches a day.
>
>After the club has its ROI it can buy a new glider every year with the
>profits. That's the REAL secret of how those European clubs own all that
>nice glass. They put their money into gliders instead of air tow fees.

Just one question, Bill:
Why do you set the price for a winch launch that high?

In all the (European) clubs I know of a winch launch costs between $0
and $5 (less for student pilots, I'd estimate the average is $2.50),
making the flying itself very cheap. Income from winch launching is
certainly not the factor why European clubs own all that nice glass.


Isn't the cost for the launch THE major factor of gliding's total cost
and needs to be kept as low as possible in order to attract new
members (and keep them)?




Bye
Andreas

[Michel Talon]

Andreas Maurer > wrote:
>
> In all the (European) clubs I know of a winch launch costs between $0
> and $5 (less for student pilots, I'd estimate the average is $2.50),
> making the flying itself very cheap. Income from winch launching is
> certainly not the factor why European clubs own all that nice glass.
>
>
> Isn't the cost for the launch THE major factor of gliding's total cost
> and needs to be kept as low as possible in order to attract new
> members (and keep them)?
>

Well i have just checked the tarifs at Bunno-Bonnevaux, and i can see
that a complete membership (including unlimited number of flying hours)
is about 1700 euros per year. This is of course a very good club,
equipped with fine glass gliders, and which uses paid employees, so
providing a hassle free solution. Also the soaring conditions are
generally good, and the distance to Paris is reasonable. I suppose that
the other large clubs of the Paris region (Beynes, Chartres, etc.) have
similar conditions.
Unfortunately they don't have a winch, hence you must add to that the
cost of aerotows, but this has always been for me a much smaller
expense. Using winches will reduce costs for sure, but this will be a
marginal reduction. I am still convinced that the cost of gliders is
number one factor for the sport problems.


>
>
>
> Bye
> Andreas

--

Michel TALON

[Bill Daniels]

"Andreas Maurer" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 16:42:31 -0700, "Bill Daniels"
> > wrote:
>
>
> >Winches are VERY profitable. The operational cost is less than $2US per
> >launch and most people will find $10 is a reasonable launch fee. That's
a
> >500% profit with a volunteer crew in a club setting. The Return On
> >Investment for a $30,000 winch is just 63 operating days figuring an
average
> >of 60 launches a day. A dual drum winch in a training environment can do
a
> >LOT more than 60 launches a day.
> >
> >After the club has its ROI it can buy a new glider every year with the
> >profits. That's the REAL secret of how those European clubs own all that
> >nice glass. They put their money into gliders instead of air tow fees.
>
> Just one question, Bill:
> Why do you set the price for a winch launch that high?
>

My point is that a fairly large sum can be spent on a winch and recovered
quickly by charging modest launch fees. After the winch is paid off, the
launch fee can be set to whatever the club/operator wants.

Many in the US are paying $40+ for an air tow. Charging a quarter of that
for the same altitude is a very attractive proposition for the glider pilot.
Reducing the price below $10 US for selected groups like students is a very
good idea. The trick is setting the launch fee to a win-win value for all
concerned. The fees should maintain the winch and provide a cash flow to
expand the glider fleet.

This is impossible with a tow plane which sucks money from the club treasury
and contributes nothing back to maintain or expand the club glider fleet.

Bill Daniels

[Ian Forbes]

John Galloway wrote:

> Skylaunch already have developed, trouble-shot and
> built 30 or so examples of the big V8 petrol/LPG twin
> drum, controlled launch power winch design you seem
> to be re-inventing. It sems sensible to use this experience
> so why not just buy one, investigate building them
> under licence, get a kit from them, or get Mike Grove's
> advice on a consultancy basis?

The Skylaunch sounds like a great machine. However I have never seen
one. I fly in South Africa and there are none in this part of the
world. I doubt that there is a club in SA that could afford one.

I see from their web site that they will sell a guillotine for about
UKP2000. However you can buy a complete reconditioned crate V8 engine
for half that price.

> The Supacat made a profit of £29,000 last
> year and £16,000 in 2002

Our club launches mainly by aerotow. We winch once every two weeks.
However even if all of our training was by winch launch I estimate our
gross winch revenue would be about USD 10 000 per year - no where near
enough to buy a Skylaunch.

There must be must be a dozen clubs operating winches in this country.
Most of them have been home made, or home modified. Many man hours have
gone into building these machines. All work to a greater or lesser
extent but none are perfect.

If the next intrepid builder had access to the detailed plans of a
proven winch, it could halve his build time and avoid the inevitable
"fix up the problems" project which follows each "winch construction
project".

The end result may also just be a bit more efficient, easier to operate
and safer and that would mean more pilots flying gliders.

Come and join us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/winchdesign/ we would
like to learn from your experiences with Supercat's and Skylaunches.

Ian

[Andreas Maurer]

On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 16:28:47 +0000 (UTC),
(Michel Talon) wrote:

>Well i have just checked the tarifs at Bunno-Bonnevaux, and i can see
>that a complete membership (including unlimited number of flying hours)
>is about 1700 euros per year. This is of course a very good club,
>equipped with fine glass gliders, and which uses paid employees, so
>providing a hassle free solution.

Yes - the region around Paris is an extremely expensive area
concerning gliding from what I heard about French clubs.
Paid employees are what makes gliding extremely expensive - it's a
question of taste if you want to pay the price for the hazzle-free
operation.
Soissons is a lot better - but they don't offer paid employees.

>I am still convinced that the cost of gliders is
>number one factor for the sport problems.

Hmmm... to be honest, I doubt this statement.
In my club I pay about $400 per year (including anything, even some
aerotows) and get 2*DG-300, ASW-24, ASW-27, ASK-21, DG-505, Dimona,
Remorqeur and a Ka-8. Duo Discus from next year on. We also own our
airfield (but will have to keep on paying for it till 2013).



Bye
Andreas

[W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).]

At the Mynd being a hill-top site does not always help with soaring, and
height gain is often just as important as at a flat site.

When using the retrieve winch a cable parachute is not used, and any height
lost because of the retrieve winch wire is considered well worth while
because of the rapid launch rate.

The retrieve winch is very easy to drive. The main winch is more difficult
to drive than with a cable parachute system, the critical bit is immediately
after the cable comes off the glider, when the main cable has to be kept
from going slack and then the power cut as the retrieve cable starts to
pull.

At the Long Mynd almost all the driving is by professionals who also
maintain the equipment. There is a very short list of amateurs who have
been trained to drive. Very little aerotowing is done, and practically
none mid-week when gliding courses are run.

There are two problems which make it very difficult or impossible for most
sites to use a retrieve winch.

1./ There is always a wire between the glider and the retrieve winch, so
there must be no risk whatever of a glider (or aircraft) flying or landing
between the two winches at any time when a launch is in progress.

2./ Once the launch has started the cable and ironmongery which links the
two cables is going to drop without being restrained by a cable parachute.
There must be no risk whatever of any person or object being underneath when
it drops; and if it drops onto a runway or taxiway it will almost certainly
be damaged.

If you look at "Gliding and Motorgliding International"
http://www.glidingmagazine.com/ , go to "Photos" and enter the word Mynd in
the search facility, you will find three photos of a K21 being launched on
the Mynd system. In the photo captioned "our oldest K21" you can see the
retrieve cable in the right lower part of the picture.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.

>
> "Bill Daniels" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> >
> > "Dave Martin" > wrote in message
> > news:c3rjqe$2bh8m7
> > The Long Mynd use a retrieve winch which with a good
> > crew is very efficient and can work with a single drum
> > winch.
> >
> > Dave
> >
>
> A visit to Long Mynd is on my "must do" list.
>
> It has been my impression that while a retrieve winch works well when
> launching from a ridge top where the height gained in the winch launch is
> unimportant, lifting the retrieve wire is a hindrance when launching from
> flatland where every foot of release height is very important.
>
> What I don't know is how much hindrance. Do you think a retrieve winch
> would be a good idea with 6000 feet of winch cable? If so, what is the
> longest wire where a retrieve winch is practical?
>
> Bill Daniels
>

[Andreas Maurer]

On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 09:56:44 -0700, "Bill Daniels"
> wrote:

>My point is that a fairly large sum can be spent on a winch and recovered
>quickly by charging modest launch fees. After the winch is paid off, the
>launch fee can be set to whatever the club/operator wants.

That sounds like a good idea.

>Many in the US are paying $40+ for an air tow. Charging a quarter of that
>for the same altitude is a very attractive proposition for the glider pilot.

Indeed it is - and with some special low rate for student pilots (or
even a flat rate) I am sure you'll find it easier to attract very
young members without own income.

>The trick is setting the launch fee to a win-win value for all
>concerned. The fees should maintain the winch and provide a cash flow to
>expand the glider fleet.

There are many possible solutions - but using a winch as primary
launch method is always a win-win situation for a club. I am a great
supporter of the flat rate which proved to be extremely successful in
my club (but didn't work at all in others).


>This is impossible with a tow plane which sucks money from the club treasury
>and contributes nothing back to maintain or expand the club glider fleet.

Not only that - but it's quite a difference if I can hop into the
glider whenever I like and take a flight without any cost (winch
launch with a flat rate) or if the first thing I think of when
thinking about a flight is the substantial aerotow bill.
I think the latter is a major hurdle for young members.




Bye
Andreas

[Mark James Boyd]

I'm gonna yeild to the folks who seem to think the electric
isn't much more efficient enough to make the other benefits
a good value for the money.

So gas or diesel it is. Sorry I can't join you...yahoo
is a proprietary BB, not a newsgroup. trn won't post there,
and my life's complicated enough otherwise (passwords,
usernames, pages loading, etc.) :)

It sounds like great fun though. Please post back here
occasionally to tell of progress...and if I get any experimental
results from electric motors, I'll let you know too :)

Bill Daniels > wrote:
>"Littleboy" > wrote in message > Costs new, to
>>
>> 1) VFD, Square D Altivar 66 drive, 460v, 100HP, well optioned $12,000
>> 2) AC Motor, 460v, 100HP general purpose, totally enclosed $4,000
>> 2a)AC Motor, 460v, 100HP inverter duty, totally enclosed $6,000
>>
>100 HP ain't gonna do it. We need 250 HP anyway to equal a 350 - 400 HP
>Diesel. 250 HP is going to be $20,000 and the frequency converter control
>box is going to be another $15,000. When I went through this, I stopped
>counting at about $60,000 just for the power source. Diesel is going to be
>a lot cheaper I think.
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

[Marc Ramsey]

Mark James Boyd wrote:
> So gas or diesel it is. Sorry I can't join you...yahoo
> is a proprietary BB, not a newsgroup. trn won't post there,
> and my life's complicated enough otherwise (passwords,
> usernames, pages loading, etc.) :)

You don't need to be a member of Yahoo to join the mailing list, just
send an email to . The archives
are also public, so you can look at them without having a membership.

Marc

[soarski]

"Bill Daniels" > wrote in message >...
> "Dave Martin" > wrote in message
> news:c3rjqe$2bh8m7
> > The Long Mynd use a retrieve winch which with a good
> > crew is very efficient and can work with a single drum
> > winch.
> >
> > Dave
> >
>
>
> A visit to Long Mynd is on my "must do" list.
>
> It has been my impression that while a retrieve winch works well when
> launching from a ridge top where the height gained in the winch launch is
> unimportant, lifting the retrieve wire is a hindrance when launching from
> flatland where every foot of release height is very important.
>
> What I don't know is how much hindrance. Do you think a retrieve winch
> would be a good idea with 6000 feet of winch cable? If so, what is the
> longest wire where a retrieve winch is practical?
>
> Bill Daniels



Hi Bill!

I checked out the German Sky Launch Site, and found a nice Cable
retrieve winch there, with a lot of info. Also, they offer kits, for
their winches that go down to half the price of a complete one, if I
remember correctly. Everyone can check the prices even if not familiar
with the language...

I canot figure out why these people want to re invent the wheel, when
all those beautiful winches can be bought for less than the price of a
glider?.....Now when flying season starts. Possibly the southern
hemisphere, freight would be high?

The retrieve winch uses a 2.5 mm cable, there seems to be no limit to
the lenght of either cable.....Bill. The loss they claim, is not more
than 2 % in hight. Will have to recheck that. The way I see it, with
the new ropes, it should not be a problem at all. The shute is not
neccesary with that application, which evens things out.

The retrieve winch seems to be not used much yet in Germany, possibly
because they somehow done well without it and are slow to change? I
know a soaring site in Germany, where they sometimes have 3 winches
next to each other. A retrieve winch could make this operation look
much better!

Rather than starting to tinker with winch building, I would suggest
for some teams to visit those winch manufacturers and get demos,
including Retrieve winches. As I said before. The problems in winch
operations are not the winches alone, but the know how in using them!

In addition to that, again, like I said before is the real estate!
Winches can hardly be used on public airports, possibly with a
retrieve winch? With winch operations, have to come relatively (long
runway) private gliderports.

Wonder whether Tonapah or Ely would alow a winch operation? Possibly
somone will build a hotel and buy the winching equipment......and have
a going business?

Think Up!

Dieter Bibbig
Gliders Of Aspen

[Marc Ramsey]

soarski wrote:
> I canot figure out why these people want to re invent the wheel, when
> all those beautiful winches can be bought for less than the price of a
> glider?.....Now when flying season starts. Possibly the southern
> hemisphere, freight would be high?

That beautiful Skylaunch III kit will cost close to $60,000 once you add
an engine, shipping, and the miscellaneous parts needed to complete it.
I doubt there are more than one or two clubs or commercial
gliderports in the US that could justify that kind of expenditure, given
their current levels of operation.

This is a bootstrapping problem. Until one can prove there is a viable
market for proper winch operations in this country, no one is going to
risk a large amount of capital to find out. This isn't about cloning a
Skylaunch, it is about finding a way to build a decent quality winch for
a cost, in time and money, that a small group of people or a club would
be willing to risk.

If we ever get to the point where there are several US gliderports doing
100+ winch launches a weekend, then you'll no doubt start seeing
Skylaunches arrive on this shore.

> In addition to that, again, like I said before is the real estate!
> Winches can hardly be used on public airports, possibly with a
> retrieve winch? With winch operations, have to come relatively (long
> runway) private gliderports.

Yes, I know of large underutilized public and private airports in
California and Nevada where we would be allowed (and in some cases
encouraged) to winch launch. Most of the private gliderports in the
area would also likely be willing to give it a try.

The point is to try to grow the sport by cutting the cost of training
(probably by half), adding an element of excitement, and being able to
operate closer to urban areas without generating noise complaints.
Maybe it will work, maybe it won't...

Marc

[Michel Talon]

Andreas Maurer > wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 16:28:47 +0000 (UTC),
> (Michel Talon) wrote:
>
>>Well i have just checked the tarifs at Bunno-Bonnevaux, and i can see
>>that a complete membership (including unlimited number of flying hours)
>>is about 1700 euros per year. This is of course a very good club,
>>equipped with fine glass gliders, and which uses paid employees, so
>>providing a hassle free solution.
>
> Yes - the region around Paris is an extremely expensive area
> concerning gliding from what I heard about French clubs.
> Paid employees are what makes gliding extremely expensive - it's a
> question of taste if you want to pay the price for the hazzle-free
> operation.
> Soissons is a lot better - but they don't offer paid employees.

I have been a member in Buno-Bonnevaux, which has paid employees
and in Moret sur Loing, which doesn't, and
- the price difference was not very significative
- the hassle difference was extremely significative
In particular, in clubs without paid employees, invariably a small
pool of people take control of the club and use their power to
harass other members. In view of my experience i would prefer clubs
with good employees any day.
By the way i have also checked the tarifs at Challes les Eaux on the
web, and i am not sure it is really cheaper than the tarifs i mentioned
when you consider that at Buno you don't pay anything for the use
of gliders, while at Challes you pay a fair amount of money for each
hour you fly. Here also, i think that paying for the number of hours you
fly is a very bad thing that discourages getting proficient in the
sport. As for Soisson, the meteorological conditions in the north of
Paris are far worse than in the south. From Buno or Moret you can reach
easily the Loire river, and from here do wonderful cross country.
Since this is a very flat region with wide fields it is extremely easy
to land "aux vaches", while car retreives are also fast and without
problem. It is not without a reason that Buno has long been one of the
biggest clubs in France, with some of the Alp clubs.



--

Michel TALON

[Andreas Maurer]

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:27:38 +0000 (UTC),
(Michel Talon) wrote:

>In particular, in clubs without paid employees, invariably a small
>pool of people take control of the club and use their power to
>harass other members. In view of my experience i would prefer clubs
>with good employees any day.

Yes - I found this problem with some of the French clubs I know (or
was told about). On the othe rhand - hundred of clubs without paid
employees work very well (but with more hazzle for the members), so
yours cannot be a general conclusion. :)

> As for Soisson, the meteorological conditions in the north of
>Paris are far worse than in the south. From Buno or Moret you can reach
>easily the Loire river, and from here do wonderful cross country.
>Since this is a very flat region with wide fields it is extremely easy
>to land "aux vaches", while car retreives are also fast and without
>problem. It is not without a reason that Buno has long been one of the
>biggest clubs in France, with some of the Alp clubs.

For me the weather at Soissons has always been pretty good compared to
our German summers... :)
But of course you are right - the further you move South in France,
the better the weather will be. I sometimes get the impressions that
club fees in French clubs are dependent on free-market economy: The
more pilots want to join a certain club, the higher the fees...;)

Bye
Andreas

[Tony Verhulst]

> That beautiful Skylaunch III kit will cost close to $60,000 once you add
> an engine, shipping, and the miscellaneous parts needed to complete it.
> I doubt there are more than one or two clubs or commercial gliderports
> in the US that could justify that kind of expenditure, given their
> current levels of operation.


Unfortunately, our site is not suitable for winching, but if it were......

We did about 2000 aero tows last year - using a Pawnee, a C182 (since
replaced with another Pawnee), and a birddog. If we got a winch, we
could sell a Pawnee for around US$30,000 and save about US$10,000 PER
YEAR in maintenance (including engine reserve). If we did 1000 winch
launches at $10 per launch... Hmmmm, a pretty easy sell to the board of
directors, I think.

Tony V.

[Bill Daniels]

"Tony Verhulst" > wrote in message
...
>
> > That beautiful Skylaunch III kit will cost close to $60,000 once you add
> > an engine, shipping, and the miscellaneous parts needed to complete it.
> > I doubt there are more than one or two clubs or commercial gliderports
> > in the US that could justify that kind of expenditure, given their
> > current levels of operation.
>
>
> Unfortunately, our site is not suitable for winching, but if it were......
>
> We did about 2000 aero tows last year - using a Pawnee, a C182 (since
> replaced with another Pawnee), and a birddog. If we got a winch, we
> could sell a Pawnee for around US$30,000 and save about US$10,000 PER
> YEAR in maintenance (including engine reserve). If we did 1000 winch
> launches at $10 per launch... Hmmmm, a pretty easy sell to the board of
> directors, I think.
>
> Tony V.
>

"I doubt there are more than one or two clubs or commercial gliderports
in the US that could justify that kind of expenditure, given their
current levels of operation."

Could it be that the "current level of operation" is due to high air tow
costs and that a winch operation would fix that?

Bill Daniels

[Marc Ramsey]

Bill Daniels wrote:
> "Tony Verhulst" > wrote in message
>>We did about 2000 aero tows last year - using a Pawnee, a C182 (since
>>replaced with another Pawnee), and a birddog. If we got a winch, we
>>could sell a Pawnee for around US$30,000 and save about US$10,000 PER
>>YEAR in maintenance (including engine reserve). If we did 1000 winch
>>launches at $10 per launch... Hmmmm, a pretty easy sell to the board of
>>directors, I think.

Only if the board of directors could be convinced that a proper winch is
a viable alternative to aerotow. If your board of directors is anything
like the ones I've dealt with, if they have any winch launch experience,
it was 40 years ago using a homebuilt gliderport special. Perhaps you
could send them all Europe for a month or so.

> "I doubt there are more than one or two clubs or commercial gliderports
> in the US that could justify that kind of expenditure, given their
> current levels of operation."
>
> Could it be that the "current level of operation" is due to high air tow
> costs and that a winch operation would fix that?

That is precisely my point...

Marc

[Mark Zivley]

To help get things started I have created three very basic polls.

#1 Number of drums

#2 Powerplant

#3 Overall configuration

Please go sign up for the group and then go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/winchdesign/polls

where you can vote on these three topics.

I've pushed the closing date on the polls out to 4/8/04 so we have
plenty of time to get people signed up, etc.

Mark

[Mark Zivley]

I added LPG to the powerplant list and my doing that accidentally erased
the 6 votes which had already been cast for that question. If you voted
early on you may need to re-vote for that item. Sorry, about that. I
won't make any more changes.

Mark Zivley wrote:

> To help get things started I have created three very basic polls.
>
> #1 Number of drums
>
> #2 Powerplant
>
> #3 Overall configuration
>
> Please go sign up for the group and then go to:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/winchdesign/polls
>
> where you can vote on these three topics.
>
> I've pushed the closing date on the polls out to 4/8/04 so we have
> plenty of time to get people signed up, etc.
>
> Mark
>

[BAToulson]

In article >, "John Giddy"
> writes:

>See if you can find a contact at "The Soaring Centre", Husbands
>Bosworth in UK.
>Some years ago they built their own 4-drum winch. I saw it a few years
>ago, and it was a most impressive machine.

True, we do have a very good winch. It is four drum and was designed by
engineers and largely built by a retired member and his son who knew what they
were doing, but to a very high standard, and is not dissimilar to the van
Gelder (which has 6 drums I believe) .

Must be about 10 or 12 years old now and has given excellent service with the
occasional overhaul. It can launch anything we have including Duo Discus,
Janus, Puchacz and other two seaters with no problem but is on full throtle
with no wind.

Unfortunately the member (and his son) who built it are no longer available,
(son now flies Jumbo jets and father is not interested in another project of
this type). However, we would willingly show you round and our Winch Master
will no doubt tell you all about our "learning curve".

If you are new to winching I strongly recommend buying a professionally made
two drum winch, Supercat for example, as I guarantee that, without a clear
blueprint you will never get the engineering right first time and would waste
many frustrating hours, lots of cash, and end up with an unsatisfactory
product.

Barney
The Soaring Centre
UK

[F.L. Whiteley]

"BAToulson" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "John
Giddy"
> > writes:
>
> >See if you can find a contact at "The Soaring Centre", Husbands
> >Bosworth in UK.
> >Some years ago they built their own 4-drum winch. I saw it a few years
> >ago, and it was a most impressive machine.
>
> True, we do have a very good winch. It is four drum and was designed by
> engineers and largely built by a retired member and his son who knew what
they
> were doing, but to a very high standard, and is not dissimilar to the van
> Gelder (which has 6 drums I believe) .
>
> Must be about 10 or 12 years old now and has given excellent service with
the
> occasional overhaul. It can launch anything we have including Duo Discus,
> Janus, Puchacz and other two seaters with no problem but is on full
throtle
> with no wind.
>
> Unfortunately the member (and his son) who built it are no longer
available,
> (son now flies Jumbo jets and father is not interested in another project
of
> this type). However, we would willingly show you round and our Winch
Master
> will no doubt tell you all about our "learning curve".
>
> If you are new to winching I strongly recommend buying a professionally
made
> two drum winch, Supercat for example, as I guarantee that, without a clear
> blueprint you will never get the engineering right first time and would
waste
> many frustrating hours, lots of cash, and end up with an unsatisfactory
> product.
>
> Barney
> The Soaring Centre
> UK
Post some detailed digital images to the winch design group at
yahoogroups.com please.

TIA,

Frank Whiteley