View Full Version : ASW27B prices falling
There are 3 nice ASW27's for sale, all at reduced prices in the Wings and Wheels website. We 3 owners are mystified at the seeming lack of interest in this ship. Two of us are no longer flying thanks to Father Time and we're throwing in lots of soaring related "goodies" with your purchase.
http://wingsandwheels.com/classifieds/?m=glider
Bruce Hoult
August 8th 17, 01:26 PM
On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 2:00:32 PM UTC+3, wrote:
> There are 3 nice ASW27's for sale, all at reduced prices in the Wings and Wheels website. We 3 owners are mystified at the seeming lack of interest in this ship. Two of us are no longer flying thanks to Father Time and we're throwing in lots of soaring related "goodies" with your purchase.
>
>
>
> http://wingsandwheels.com/classifieds/?m=glider
$80k is sadly still out of my price range for a toy, but I hadn't realized how affordable PIK20s were now .. several of them there for around $15k-$20k. And a Jantar too. All decent aircraft.
6PK
August 8th 17, 03:53 PM
On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 5:26:36 AM UTC-7, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 2:00:32 PM UTC+3, wrote:
> > There are 3 nice ASW27's for sale, all at reduced prices in the Wings and Wheels website. We 3 owners are mystified at the seeming lack of interest in this ship. Two of us are no longer flying thanks to Father Time and we're throwing in lots of soaring related "goodies" with your purchase.
> >
> >
> >
> > http://wingsandwheels.com/classifieds/?m=glider
>
> $80k is sadly still out of my price range for a toy, but I hadn't realized how affordable PIK20s were now .. several of them there for around $15k-$20k. And a Jantar too. All decent aircraft.
All prices of gliders been on a steady decline for several years now. The cost of a good sailplane has never been so affordable, thanks to the equal decline of the soaring interest.......
And yet, an ASH-31Mi-21m, just sold in one day on W&W for $240,000.00 if you please!.............are we becoming a society of haves and have nots?
I'm not comfortable owing a bird worth more than 40K...........
JJ
Dan Marotta
August 8th 17, 08:24 PM
But that's only $119,785.28 in 1988 dollars! Oh... I couldn't afford it
then, either... Some folks just got a better education, worked harder,
and chose a better career path than I did, I guess.
On 8/8/2017 12:51 PM, wrote:
> And yet, an ASH-31Mi-21m, just sold in one day on W&W for $240,000.00 if you please!.............are we becoming a society of haves and have nots?
> I'm not comfortable owing a bird worth more than 40K...........
> JJ
--
Dan, 5J
Some of us are just destined to have 18 year old cars and 35 year old gliders.
On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 3:25:05 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> But that's only $119,785.28 in 1988 dollars! Oh... I couldn't afford it
> then, either... Some folks just got a better education, worked harder,
> and chose a better career path than I did, I guess.
>
>
> Dan, 5J
Says the guy flying the Stemme.
LOL
UH
Bruce Hoult
August 8th 17, 10:10 PM
On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 11:58:33 PM UTC+3, wrote:
> Some of us are just destined to have 18 year old cars and 35 year old gliders.
I still love my 1997 Subaru Outback (bought in 2011 with 105000 km) to bits, thank you very much.
And, yeah, a 35 year old glider could well be in my future soon. Or 40.
Martin Gregorie[_5_]
August 8th 17, 11:49 PM
On Tue, 08 Aug 2017 14:10:29 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 11:58:33 PM UTC+3,
> wrote:
>> Some of us are just destined to have 18 year old cars and 35 year old
>> gliders.
>
> I still love my 1997 Subaru Outback (bought in 2011 with 105000 km) to
> bits, thank you very much.
>
> And, yeah, a 35 year old glider could well be in my future soon. Or 40.
Mine is 48 this year and still a great ride: H201 with balsa wing skins
and upper + lower surface brakes.
Don't knock the old ones.
--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
August 9th 17, 01:16 AM
wrote on 8/8/2017 1:58 PM:
> Some of us are just destined to have 18 year old cars and 35 year old gliders.
>
As long as what you are towing is worth more than the tow car, you have your
priorities right!
Seriously, every married glider pilot should ask himself: "Am I leaving enough
assets so my wife can live with dignity if I get taken out by a bus?". If the
answer is no, you need to get a more expensive sailplane to beef up that estate!
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf
Scott Williams
August 9th 17, 01:57 AM
On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 6:00:32 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> There are 3 nice ASW27's for sale, all at reduced prices in the Wings and Wheels website. We 3 owners are mystified at the seeming lack of interest in this ship. Two of us are no longer flying thanks to Father Time and we're throwing in lots of soaring related "goodies" with your purchase.
>
>
>
> http://wingsandwheels.com/classifieds/?m=glider
While I can only be envious of guys with 80K worth of glider at their disposal,
What does it say when three out of four (75%) of the ASW 27B's on the FAA registry are currently up for sale at the same time?
KEN
August 9th 17, 03:12 AM
On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 8:57:26 PM UTC-4, Scott Williams wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 6:00:32 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > There are 3 nice ASW27's for sale, all at reduced prices in the Wings and Wheels website. We 3 owners are mystified at the seeming lack of interest in this ship. Two of us are no longer flying thanks to Father Time and we're throwing in lots of soaring related "goodies" with your purchase.
> > Read the post correctly (no longer able to fly). Also there are more than 4 ASW 27B's. The FAA (believe it or not ) does not list all ASW 27B"s seperate from the model ASW 27.
> > http://wingsandwheels.com/classifieds/?m=glider
>
> While I can only be envious of guys with 80K worth of glider at their disposal,
> What does it say when three out of four (75%) of the ASW 27B's on the FAA registry are currently up for sale at the same time?
KEN
August 9th 17, 03:34 AM
On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 8:57:26 PM UTC-4, Scott Williams wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 6:00:32 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > There are 3 nice ASW27's for sale, all at reduced prices in the Wings and Wheels website. We 3 owners are mystified at the seeming lack of interest in this ship. Two of us are no longer flying thanks to Father Time and we're throwing in lots of soaring related "goodies" with your purchase.
> >
> >
> >
> > http://wingsandwheels.com/classifieds/?m=glider
>
> While I can only be envious of guys with 80K worth of glider at their disposal,
> What does it say when three out of four (75%) of the ASW 27B's on the FAA registry are currently up for sale at the same time?
Scott, Reread the original post. Two are not flying anymore ( ie. medical issues).
There are a lot more ASW 27B's than just 4. Some are listed under the model ASW 27.
On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 5:00:32 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> There are 3 nice ASW27's for sale, all at reduced prices in the Wings and Wheels website. We 3 owners are mystified at the seeming lack of interest in this ship. Two of us are no longer flying thanks to Father Time and we're throwing in lots of soaring related "goodies" with your purchase.
>
>
>
> http://wingsandwheels.com/classifieds/?m=glider
A ASW-27 is a great glider and it does strike me as odd that they don't sell quick. However, I believe the majority of the buyers right now are like myself, new to soaring, wanting to buy something that is fun, like my Libelle 201B; but also not something that looks like it is "too much" glider for the first purchase.
Just an idea.
Craig Reinholt
August 9th 17, 02:57 PM
> All prices of gliders been on a steady decline for several years now. The cost of a good sailplane has never been so affordable, thanks to the equal decline of the soaring interest.......
and if you can afford $80k, then you perhaps you can afford more and are looking for a sustainer or self launcher?
son_of_flubber
August 9th 17, 03:10 PM
On Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 9:57:48 AM UTC-4, Craig Reinholt wrote:
> > All prices of gliders been on a steady decline for several years now. The cost of a good sailplane has never been so affordable, thanks to the equal decline of the soaring interest.......
>
> and if you can afford $80k, then you perhaps you can afford more and are looking for a sustainer or self launcher?
I can wait a few years for falling glider prices to stabilize.
6PK
August 9th 17, 03:28 PM
On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 11:06:29 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 5:00:32 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> > There are 3 nice ASW27's for sale, all at reduced prices in the Wings and Wheels website. We 3 owners are mystified at the seeming lack of interest in this ship. Two of us are no longer flying thanks to Father Time and we're throwing in lots of soaring related "goodies" with your purchase.
> >
> >
> >
> > http://wingsandwheels.com/classifieds/?m=glider
>
> A ASW-27 is a great glider and it does strike me as odd that they don't sell quick. However, I believe the majority of the buyers right now are like myself, new to soaring, wanting to buy something that is fun, like my Libelle 201B; but also not something that looks like it is "too much" glider for the first purchase.
>
> Just an idea.
Well....not to be a total smart alec but let me chime in once more.
In the business of sales, particularly used item sales; the prices will be dictated what the market can bare, that is as simple as that.
Since we are seeing the $20-40 market drop about 30% due to the lack of demand, why should be the $60-1000k market be any different? If the owners would price their gliders to sell and reduce prices where they should be... they will sell. No one likes to take a hit but sometimes one needs to take a hard look and just bite the bullet or expect to sit on the item for a very long time and sometimes more,( there are plenty of examples of this on the WW classified).
Sure... there are gliders being sold for a quarter mill but what's the percentage of that compared to the total market...maybe 2%?
Just my nickel's worth.
Tango Eight
August 9th 17, 06:04 PM
The thing that's always driven willingness to throw down a lot of money on a glider is competition. $80K is, any way you slice it, a lot of money for a 15+ year old glider (just ask any of our wives :-)). There are a thousand reasons the 27 is a great glider. However, performance in competition is the one that supported the market price of used 27s at roughly "every dime I spent on it since new".
What's happening in the competition world? Connect the dots...
Evan Ludeman / T8
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
August 9th 17, 09:15 PM
I will say, except for a very few, more gains are achieved by training the nut behind the stick.
If I could spend $xxx,xxx and win US Nats, sign me up.
But, I KNOW that a good pilot could fly, say, a well prepped ASW-20 and kick my butt flying in ANY new glider most days, thus pilot training is worth it first and foremost.
(Yes, I know what you fly, yes, well prepped it's still a great sailplane......).
Michael Opitz
August 9th 17, 10:49 PM
At 17:04 09 August 2017, Tango Eight wrote:
>The thing that's always driven willingness to throw down a lot of
money on
>=
>a glider is competition. $80K is, any way you slice it, a lot of money
>for=
> a 15+ year old glider (just ask any of our wives :-)). There are a
>thousa=
>nd reasons the 27 is a great glider. However, performance in
competition
>i=
>s the one that supported the market price of used 27s at roughly
"every
>dim=
>e I spent on it since new". =20
>
>What's happening in the competition world? Connect the dots...
>
>Evan Ludeman / T8
>
Speaking of the USA market, T8 is correct. That is how it has behaved
for the last ~35+ years. As soon as a ship is not at a top competitive
level, the resale value has dropped off rapidly. In Europe, clubs will
tend to buy up these gliders, which means that the market will support
higher prices for these types of birds. In the USA, the re-sale market is
(and has been, but is getting worse due to declining participation) too
thin, so now that the V3 and JS3 are coming out, the ASW-27 and V2
prices will fall. That is just the nature of the beast in the USA....
RO
I ended up selling an ASH-26 after my best friends untimely demise............ After checked the recent sales, I set a rather low price of $130K and put it on W&W site. No response, not even a nibble! After several months, I finally sold it to an Australian pilot for less. My take on the situation was that a buyer who could spend 130K for a used ship is probably more interested in the latest brand new, gee-wiz machine available.
JJ
George Haeh
August 9th 17, 11:42 PM
At the higher end, there's simply fewer people with the money.
As for people saying it's too much glider, it's easier to fly than just
about
anything else, but harder to fly well.
Scott Williams
August 10th 17, 02:44 AM
On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 7:57:26 PM UTC-5, Scott Williams wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 6:00:32 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > There are 3 nice ASW27's for sale, all at reduced prices in the Wings and Wheels website. We 3 owners are mystified at the seeming lack of interest in this ship. Two of us are no longer flying thanks to Father Time and we're throwing in lots of soaring related "goodies" with your purchase.
> >
> >
> >
> > http://wingsandwheels.com/classifieds/?m=glider
>
> While I can only be envious of guys with 80K worth of glider at their disposal,
> What does it say when three out of four (75%) of the ASW 27B's on the FAA registry are currently up for sale at the same time?
Sorry if I offended anyone, Not my intention. My question is more of an economic one than a slight of any specific pilots or gliders.
BTW, of the 133 ASW 27's on the FAA registry, there are only Four Identified as B's. and all three listed on W&W are listed as B's.
As Ken Pointed out, the registry is 'Loose' on this Score.
Cheers,
Scott.
On Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 7:45:01 PM UTC-6, Scott Williams wrote:
> BTW, of the 133 ASW 27's on the FAA registry, there are only Four Identified as B's. and all three listed on W&W are listed as B's.
Some ASW 27B's are shown as straight 27's on the registry. Mine's a B, with wet wings and higher W/S, extra flap setting, etc. But shown as a straight 27 on the registry.
Gary Osoba
Dan Daly[_2_]
August 10th 17, 07:08 PM
On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 2:00:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 7:45:01 PM UTC-6, Scott Williams wrote:
>
> > BTW, of the 133 ASW 27's on the FAA registry, there are only Four Identified as B's. and all three listed on W&W are listed as B's.
>
> Some ASW 27B's are shown as straight 27's on the registry. Mine's a B, with wet wings and higher W/S, extra flap setting, etc. But shown as a straight 27 on the registry.
>
> Gary Osoba
W/S = wing span?
>
> W/S = wing span?
Sorry... engineering parlance for Wing Loading.
Gary
On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 2:00:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 7:45:01 PM UTC-6, Scott Williams wrote:
>
> > BTW, of the 133 ASW 27's on the FAA registry, there are only Four Identified as B's. and all three listed on W&W are listed as B's.
>
> Some ASW 27B's are shown as straight 27's on the registry. Mine's a B, with wet wings and higher W/S, extra flap setting, etc. But shown as a straight 27 on the registry.
>
> Gary Osoba
Does your '27 have a max gross of more than 1102 lb?
Curious.
UH
On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 1:10:27 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> Does your '27 have a max gross of more than 1102 lb?
> Curious.
> UH
Hank, I would consider you to be much more knowledgable about these models than I am. As far as I know, both models were certified to 500kg = 1102.31 lbs. max mass, but some pilots of average size/mass in the straight 27 with water bags had reported having difficulty getting enough water in the wings to reach that. Large pilots or gliders heavy from repairs/excess equipment would not have that difficulty. The wet wings work very well and hold all the water they were designed for. Like you did on yours, mine has much bigger dump valves and plumbing installed which gives very good dump times.
Another straight 27- 27B difference is the taller factory winglets on the B model, giving slightly more effective span. Some have reported slightly better handling. I doubt I would be able to tell the difference, but possibly some can. As you know, the handling is absolutely superb on any of these- with or without full water.
Gary
Jonathan St. Cloud
August 10th 17, 09:18 PM
The new designs have not proven they are better than the 27. The JS-3 while very innovative, has very low wing area, which might prove a hindrance on weaker days, and the V3 has not competed in 15 meters. The 27 might very well be the equal of these newer gliders and priced right to get younger pilots into competitive ships, just one reporter's musings.
On Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 3:00:07 PM UTC-7, Michael Opitz wrote:
> At 17:04 09 August 2017, Tango Eight wrote:
> >The thing that's always driven willingness to throw down a lot of
> money on
> >=
> >a glider is competition. $80K is, any way you slice it, a lot of money
> >for=
> > a 15+ year old glider (just ask any of our wives :-)). There are a
> >thousa=
> >nd reasons the 27 is a great glider. However, performance in
> competition
> >i=
> >s the one that supported the market price of used 27s at roughly
> "every
> >dim=
> >e I spent on it since new". =20
> >
> >What's happening in the competition world? Connect the dots...
> >
> >Evan Ludeman / T8
> >
>
> Speaking of the USA market, T8 is correct. That is how it has behaved
> for the last ~35+ years. As soon as a ship is not at a top competitive
> level, the resale value has dropped off rapidly. In Europe, clubs will
> tend to buy up these gliders, which means that the market will support
> higher prices for these types of birds. In the USA, the re-sale market is
>
> (and has been, but is getting worse due to declining participation) too
> thin, so now that the V3 and JS3 are coming out, the ASW-27 and V2
> prices will fall. That is just the nature of the beast in the USA....
> RO
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
August 10th 17, 10:55 PM
As I stated before in this thread, a well prepped ASW-20 (with winglets) is pretty much there. A well prepped -20B works well in "heavy conditions."
Take it from a cross country pilot with quite a few hours in a A and C. Sucks on a ridge day @9lbs watching others cruise by you at speed, I won based on knowing when to climb for gap jumps (Mifflin).
I still say, for 90%,nut behind the stick is more important than the glider.
Deep pockets?
Go for it.
More time and training is cheaper and better.
On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 4:14:48 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 1:10:27 PM UTC-6, wrote:
>
> > Does your '27 have a max gross of more than 1102 lb?
> > Curious.
> > UH
>
> Hank, I would consider you to be much more knowledgable about these models than I am. As far as I know, both models were certified to 500kg = 1102..31 lbs. max mass, but some pilots of average size/mass in the straight 27 with water bags had reported having difficulty getting enough water in the wings to reach that. Large pilots or gliders heavy from repairs/excess equipment would not have that difficulty. The wet wings work very well and hold all the water they were designed for. Like you did on yours, mine has much bigger dump valves and plumbing installed which gives very good dump times..
>
> Another straight 27- 27B difference is the taller factory winglets on the B model, giving slightly more effective span. Some have reported slightly better handling. I doubt I would be able to tell the difference, but possibly some can. As you know, the handling is absolutely superb on any of these- with or without full water.
>
> Gary
You are quite right that the earlier 27's can be harder to get to max weight.
Michael Opitz
August 11th 17, 03:07 AM
At 20:18 10 August 2017, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>The new designs have not proven they are better than the 27. The
JS-3
>whil=
>e very innovative, has very low wing area, which might prove a
hindrance
>on=
> weaker days, and the V3 has not competed in 15 meters. The 27
might very
>=
>well be the equal of these newer gliders and priced right to get
younger
>pi=
>lots into competitive ships, just one reporter's musings.
>
Back in the 1980's I flew in 3 WGC's and pretty much had the ability
to get very a low serial number of any new glider that came out in
my class. I chose to fly in Standard Class because it had the most
restrictions - which limited the quantum performance leaps with new
technology, which meant that my investment in my glider tended to
hold its value better due to remaining competitive for a longer
period of time. Nonetheless, that was the period where the newer
generation of turbulated airfoils came out, and the advancement was
quite rapid. It was so rapid that I went through 6 different gliders in
8 years in order to keep on top of the performance changes, which
gave me the best chances in competitions.
Here is how I made the comparisons and the general assumptions I
made. Just for this argument's sake, say that the new glider had a
10 foot per minute cruise advantage over the old one (although I
saw much bigger differences than this on occasion). If one was
going to fly a WGC in a good wx place (like we did in Benalla 1987),
one could have 12 competition days. Assume cruising 75% of the
time, and 4 hour tasks, that meant 3 hours cruising per day X 12
days = 36 hours = 2160 minutes X 10FPM = 21,600 vertical feet
advantage over 12 racing days. Divide that by an average climb
rate of 500FPM, and you get ~43 minutes x ~6 points per minute
= ~260 points advantage the new glider has over the period of the
contest GIVEN flying the same and making the same mistakes.
You can reduce it down for a 9 day Nationals, and I come up with
around a ~195 point advantage at 10FPM.
As I said, some of the observed performance differences were
significantly larger than the 10FPM I use above. I looked at the
numbers and concluded that if I wanted to have any chance of
winning a WGC, I could not afford to give up that many points to
the best in the world in advance, so I switched gliders.
I still have the Discus-2b I bought in 1999, and there is still nothing
better in Standard Class. Additionally, in the USA, we have
handicapped this class, so my glider will stay competitive for the
foreseeable future. Unfortunately, D-2 prices have also fallen off
recently, most probably due to lack of participating pilots in the
class. Back in the 1980's, there were ~16,000 SSA members and 3
racing classes. Now, there are only ~12,000 members, and in
addition to Open, 15m, and STD, we have 18m, Sports, Club,
13.5m, World, and soon a multi-seat class. Too many classes and
too few competitors makes for a really screwy re-sale market....
As I said in another post, In Europe there are enough clubs and
participants where these gliders get absorbed much easier. The
newer gliders are all designed on computers, so they can design nice
handling into them to go along with the great performance. They no
longer have to compromise on the handling / performance issues, so
clubs can buy them and not have to worry too much about the
average member flying these birds. In the USA, most clubs are
pretty strapped for cash, so they will say "We can buy 4 G-102's for
the price of one ASW-27, and the average member won't really need
or see the performance difference." They will buy the used G-102
for ~$18K, and keep the other $62K in the bank for other
contingencies like rebuilding the tow plane engine, etc....
RO
On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 4:41:35 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> Which one to buy? Buy the one in the best condition. An early one can be made to go as well as the last one off the line, admittedly with maybe a bit more work.
> UH
I think this is the best advice. When I shopped for mine I consulted Gerhard Waibel and Loek Boermans, both of which I had known since the 90's and worked with some on classification and certification issues on the IGC's Sailplane Development Panel. I decided to buy an early model wet wing which had been expertly re-profiled by Fidel at Applebay aviation and has an essentially flawless finish and contour control. Some feel that mold stability changes somewhat with the passage of time and multiple production runs, so this is also possibly a factor to consider. I think one other point to look for is whether or not the wing lift pins have been replaced properly. If this hasn't been done, it will need to be done with time.
Re water capacities, the ASW 27/27B manual specifies early production bag capacity as limited to 26 gallons, optional and later larger bags 37 gallons (probably all straight 27's by now), and the integrated wet wings 51 gallons.
Other comments that the design performs as well as anything out there in 15m are probably accurate. The Diana 2 can be a bit of a handful to fly- and I would expect Sebastian Kawa to generally win whether he flies one of those or a 27. The JS-3 appears to be a beautiful design, but truly all of these are very similar in specifications. High wing integrations have been around for awhile (I have that on my Stemme) but mostly benefit low velocity flight. Whether or not that can make up for slightly less projected wing area, at the cost of more area than a straight dihedral implementation and a little bit of flow disturbance with kinked span-wise camber is the question. For the money, the ASW-27 series is a proven design with superb performance, handling, and safety factors- including outstanding short field landing performance with the sophisticated flap mixer system. In good conditions and loaded up, the running performance at 200-220kmh is remarkable.
I would expect Hank to know 27's about as well as anyone in this country and his advice would be valuable to would-be buyers.
Gary
howard banks
August 12th 17, 07:43 AM
It is worse than you say in your neat note. Membership in the SSA is now below 10,000. Adds to the upscrewyness of the used glider market.
Tim Taylor
August 13th 17, 02:04 AM
I will throw a different opinion out. Yes, it is supply and demand; but not that the 27b or V2a&b have been replaced by better aircraft.
This shift is because we have a small and shrinking population of racing pilots and an ever increasing number of classes. The std class was the first to go. We now have about four catagory one pilots left in std. class. 15m is being replaced by the 18m class. Most of the competitive pilots that were in std. class and 15m have now purchased 15/18m gliders. The balance shifted in about 2015 with more of the pilots moving to the 15/18m gliders rather than straight 15m. This shift was also exasperated by the creation of the 18/21 class of glider. These gliders now overlap in 18m and open.
In the US this is made worse by the distances required to drive to a contest. A multi class glider means you don't have to drive as far to compete.
The bottom line is those buying a new glider are going to buy a 15/18m or 18/21m glider. The demand for a straight 15m is going to fall. The FAI motto is "We never met a class of glider we won't create a new class for". At the same time it continues to price pilots out of the game and reduces number of people participating in the sport.
Michael Opitz
August 13th 17, 01:19 PM
At 01:04 13 August 2017, Tim Taylor wrote:
>I will throw a different opinion out. Yes, it is supply and demand;
but
>no=
>t that the 27b or V2a&b have been replaced by better aircraft.
>
>This shift is because we have a small and shrinking population of
racing
>pi=
>lots and an ever increasing number of classes. The std class was
the
>first=
> to go. We now have about four catagory one pilots left in std.
class.
>15=
>m is being replaced by the 18m class. Most of the competitive
pilots that
>=
>were in std. class and 15m have now purchased 15/18m gliders.
The balance
>s=
>hifted in about 2015 with more of the pilots moving to the 15/18m
gliders
>r=
>ather than straight 15m. This shift was also exasperated by the
creation
>of=
> the 18/21 class of glider. These gliders now overlap in 18m and
open.
>
>In the US this is made worse by the distances required to drive to
a
>contes=
>t. A multi class glider means you don't have to drive as far to
compete. =
>=20
>
>The bottom line is those buying a new glider are going to buy a
15/18m or
>1=
>8/21m glider. The demand for a straight 15m is going to fall. The
FAI
>mott=
>o is "We never met a class of glider we won't create a new class
for". At
>=
>the same time it continues to price pilots out of the game and
reduces
>numb=
>er of people participating in the sport.
>
And for those of us who can't afford to buy a new $150K competitive
glider, we are left with the handicapped classes where one can still
be competitive with an older and much less expensive glider.
Standard class is handicapped, but limited to only Standard class
gliders, whereas Sports and Club classes have broader ranges of
gliders allowed. Having 3 handicapped nationals per year allows the
contests to also be geographically spread out, which cuts down on
travel time and expenses too. So that is where you will find the
pilots (out of this ever shrinking pool) who want to compete but
can't afford the minimum $150K entry price in Open, 18m & 15m...
Of course this kind of "racing" won't sit well with the "purists" who
just want to go "head to head" with other pilots, but I suppose that
those folks could also go race 1-26's for a cheap one design class...
I am staying with my STD class glider because I can fly STD, Sports,
and Club classes with it, and be competitive in any of them...
RO
On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 5:55:14 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> A well prepped -20B works well in "heavy conditions."
I love my '20. I can out climb any other glider in the sky in small weak thermals.
Guy Byars
krasw
August 14th 17, 09:28 AM
On Sunday, 13 August 2017 04:04:20 UTC+3, Tim Taylor wrote:
> The balance shifted in about 2015 with more of the pilots moving to the 15/18m gliders rather than straight 15m.
I bet you can count straight 15m gliders manufactured after 2005 with your 10 fingers.
Ron Gleason
August 14th 17, 02:50 PM
On Monday, 14 August 2017 02:28:47 UTC-6, krasw wrote:
> On Sunday, 13 August 2017 04:04:20 UTC+3, Tim Taylor wrote:
> > The balance shifted in about 2015 with more of the pilots moving to the 15/18m gliders rather than straight 15m.
>
> I bet you can count straight 15m gliders manufactured after 2005 with your 10 fingers.
This paragraph was posted on the Schempp-Hirth FB page
"Apart from it being a tradition, we celebrated the deliveries of both the 700th Duo Discus, the 250 Arcus (see below) and, in a few weeks, the upcoming deliveries of the 200th Discus-2c and the very last produced Ventus-2."
If they are not producing the V2 anymore and the "New Ventus" is currently only 18M what does that say about the or their view of the future?
https://www.facebook.com/schempphirth/
Ron Gleason
Juanman[_2_]
August 14th 17, 02:54 PM
On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 9:50:51 AM UTC-4, Ron Gleason wrote:
> On Monday, 14 August 2017 02:28:47 UTC-6, krasw wrote:
> > On Sunday, 13 August 2017 04:04:20 UTC+3, Tim Taylor wrote:
> > > The balance shifted in about 2015 with more of the pilots moving to the 15/18m gliders rather than straight 15m.
> >
> > I bet you can count straight 15m gliders manufactured after 2005 with your 10 fingers.
>
> This paragraph was posted on the Schempp-Hirth FB page
>
> "Apart from it being a tradition, we celebrated the deliveries of both the 700th Duo Discus, the 250 Arcus (see below) and, in a few weeks, the upcoming deliveries of the 200th Discus-2c and the very last produced Ventus-2."
>
> If they are not producing the V2 anymore and the "New Ventus" is currently only 18M what does that say about the or their view of the future?
>
> https://www.facebook.com/schempphirth/
>
> Ron Gleason
There will surely be 15m tips for the V3.
Jonathan St. Cloud
August 14th 17, 04:05 PM
Wow, 700 Duo Discus; 250 Arcus, great job with Schempp spotting the right market. One of the most popular 15/18 gliders, the ASG-29 has only sold about 330 units.
On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 6:50:51 AM UTC-7, Ron Gleason wrote:
> On Monday, 14 August 2017 02:28:47 UTC-6, krasw wrote:
> > On Sunday, 13 August 2017 04:04:20 UTC+3, Tim Taylor wrote:
> > > The balance shifted in about 2015 with more of the pilots moving to the 15/18m gliders rather than straight 15m.
> >
> > I bet you can count straight 15m gliders manufactured after 2005 with your 10 fingers.
>
> This paragraph was posted on the Schempp-Hirth FB page
>
> "Apart from it being a tradition, we celebrated the deliveries of both the 700th Duo Discus, the 250 Arcus (see below) and, in a few weeks, the upcoming deliveries of the 200th Discus-2c and the very last produced Ventus-2."
>
> If they are not producing the V2 anymore and the "New Ventus" is currently only 18M what does that say about the or their view of the future?
>
> https://www.facebook.com/schempphirth/
>
> Ron Gleason
On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 11:05:11 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Wow, 700 Duo Discus; 250 Arcus, great job with Schempp spotting the right market. One of the most popular 15/18 gliders, the ASG-29 has only sold about 330 units.
>
Schleicher still busy building ASK-21's. About 1000 of those, obviously over a longer time. Lead time is still over a year.
UH
Jonathan St. Cloud
August 15th 17, 01:07 AM
The "New Ventus" is designed as a 15/18 meter glider. Same with the JS-3 15/18 but in the JS-3 they chose to focus on the 15 meter version before the 18 meter version, just reverse of the Ventus, 18 before 15 meter. So the two newest gliders are designed for 15/18 meters, that is the view of the future, two class gliders.
On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 6:50:51 AM UTC-7, Ron Gleason wrote:
> On Monday, 14 August 2017 02:28:47 UTC-6, krasw wrote:
> > On Sunday, 13 August 2017 04:04:20 UTC+3, Tim Taylor wrote:
> > > The balance shifted in about 2015 with more of the pilots moving to the 15/18m gliders rather than straight 15m.
> >
> > I bet you can count straight 15m gliders manufactured after 2005 with your 10 fingers.
>
> This paragraph was posted on the Schempp-Hirth FB page
>
> "Apart from it being a tradition, we celebrated the deliveries of both the 700th Duo Discus, the 250 Arcus (see below) and, in a few weeks, the upcoming deliveries of the 200th Discus-2c and the very last produced Ventus-2."
>
> If they are not producing the V2 anymore and the "New Ventus" is currently only 18M what does that say about the or their view of the future?
>
> https://www.facebook.com/schempphirth/
>
> Ron Gleason
Ron Gleason
August 15th 17, 01:17 AM
On Monday, 14 August 2017 18:07:49 UTC-6, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> The "New Ventus" is designed as a 15/18 meter glider. Same with the JS-3 15/18 but in the JS-3 they chose to focus on the 15 meter version before the 18 meter version, just reverse of the Ventus, 18 before 15 meter. So the two newest gliders are designed for 15/18 meters, that is the view of the future, two class gliders.
>
> On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 6:50:51 AM UTC-7, Ron Gleason wrote:
> > On Monday, 14 August 2017 02:28:47 UTC-6, krasw wrote:
> > > On Sunday, 13 August 2017 04:04:20 UTC+3, Tim Taylor wrote:
> > > > The balance shifted in about 2015 with more of the pilots moving to the 15/18m gliders rather than straight 15m.
> > >
> > > I bet you can count straight 15m gliders manufactured after 2005 with your 10 fingers.
> >
> > This paragraph was posted on the Schempp-Hirth FB page
> >
> > "Apart from it being a tradition, we celebrated the deliveries of both the 700th Duo Discus, the 250 Arcus (see below) and, in a few weeks, the upcoming deliveries of the 200th Discus-2c and the very last produced Ventus-2."
> >
> > If they are not producing the V2 anymore and the "New Ventus" is currently only 18M what does that say about the or their view of the future?
> >
> > https://www.facebook.com/schempphirth/
> >
> > Ron Gleason
I have heard the 15/18M approach for the new Ventus but nothing on their website
Dave Springford
August 15th 17, 03:45 AM
At the bottom of the new Ventus page in the Questions and answers section it says:
Is it possible in the future to fly the Ventus´ with 15m wing span?
The wing design of the new Ventus´ was optimized from the beginning for 15 meter and 18 meter. There will be a retrofit kit, but not for the second half of 2017.
<http://www.schempp-hirth.com/en/sailplanes/the-new-ventus.html>
Rumour has it that the design has recently been completed for the 15m tips and the late 2017 date mentioned above should be realistic.
JS[_5_]
August 15th 17, 04:00 AM
On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 7:45:09 PM UTC-7, Dave Springford wrote:
> At the bottom of the new Ventus page in the Questions and answers section it says:
>
>
> Is it possible in the future to fly the Ventus´ with 15m wing span?
>
> The wing design of the new Ventus´ was optimized from the beginning for 15 meter and 18 meter. There will be a retrofit kit, but not for the second half of 2017.
>
> <http://www.schempp-hirth.com/en/sailplanes/the-new-ventus.html>
>
>
> Rumour has it that the design has recently been completed for the 15m tips and the late 2017 date mentioned above should be realistic.
And Dave might have a nice ASW27-18 for sale soon....
Jim
Bruce Hoult
August 15th 17, 07:07 AM
On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 2:11:27 AM UTC+3, wrote:
> On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 11:05:11 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > Wow, 700 Duo Discus; 250 Arcus, great job with Schempp spotting the right market. One of the most popular 15/18 gliders, the ASG-29 has only sold about 330 units.
> >
> Schleicher still busy building ASK-21's. About 1000 of those, obviously over a longer time. Lead time is still over a year.
One imagines DG has built quite a few DG500 and DG1000 series too, especially with those various air force orders.
Maybe as much as Arcus?
Jonathan St. Cloud
August 15th 17, 09:52 AM
And the Jonkers website only lists the JS-3-15meter, but Jonkers is posting video of the 18 meter process and like the New Ventus the JS-3 has been designed from the start as 15/18. I had a 15/18 Ventus 2C back in 1999, have an 15/18 ASG-29 now, there is no fundamental shift in glider markets other than the two place market is very good.
On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 5:17:10 PM UTC-7, Ron Gleason wrote:
> On Monday, 14 August 2017 18:07:49 UTC-6, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > The "New Ventus" is designed as a 15/18 meter glider. Same with the JS-3 15/18 but in the JS-3 they chose to focus on the 15 meter version before the 18 meter version, just reverse of the Ventus, 18 before 15 meter. So the two newest gliders are designed for 15/18 meters, that is the view of the future, two class gliders.
>
> I have heard the 15/18M approach for the new Ventus but nothing on their website
On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 8:30:09 AM UTC-4, Michael Opitz wrote:
> I am staying with my STD class glider because I can fly STD, Sports,
> and Club classes with it, and be competitive in any of them...
> RO
Same here, RO. I bought my state-of-the-art Standard Class glider 25 years ago. I've flown it in five classes (Std., Sports, 15M, Open, and FAI Combined/Handicapped 15M/Std.) and am still competitive in Std., Sports, and Club (thanks, Rules Committee!). I owned a 15M glider for many years and would love to fly flaps again but the cost makes no sense at this point in my life. UH helped me refinish my fuselage last winter and my wings are on the list for this winter. So my plan is to close out my gliding career in the same aircraft I've been flying since 1992.
Soaring has never been inexpensive. It's just even less so now. And, yeah, the proliferation of classes doesn't help, although ironically it arguably makes the Std. and 15M classes somewhat more affordable as used prices decline with shrinking popularity. So as long as they don't disappear entirely....
Chip Bearden
Ron Gleason
August 15th 17, 04:42 PM
On Monday, 14 August 2017 20:45:09 UTC-6, Dave Springford wrote:
> At the bottom of the new Ventus page in the Questions and answers section it says:
>
>
> Is it possible in the future to fly the Ventus´ with 15m wing span?
>
> The wing design of the new Ventus´ was optimized from the beginning for 15 meter and 18 meter. There will be a retrofit kit, but not for the second half of 2017.
>
> <http://www.schempp-hirth.com/en/sailplanes/the-new-ventus.html>
>
>
> Rumour has it that the design has recently been completed for the 15m tips and the late 2017 date mentioned above should be realistic.
thanks for the link
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
August 15th 17, 06:29 PM
I remember -24 winglets testing many years ago at HHSC.
Yes, winglets (correct ones for conditions) makes a ASW a totally different glider.
Unless worlds, most performance gain is the nut behind the stick.
Old rule was, "40hrs in the raced glider before first contest day that season" so the basics of flying were automatic.
> There will surely be 15m tips for the V3.
15M tips are a very expensive option. 15 years ago for a V2C, the 15M tips were upwards of $7000 USD. Certainly more now.
So, you pay out the nose to get the outstanding performance of an 18M glider, then you pay even more to be able to fly it in a lower performance configuration. Makes no sense.
I wonder what % of 15/18M ships are sold with the 15M tip options.
Jonathan St. Cloud
August 15th 17, 09:39 PM
On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 11:13:57 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > There will surely be 15m tips for the V3.
>
> 15M tips are a very expensive option. 15 years ago for a V2C, the 15M tips were upwards of $7000 USD. Certainly more now.
>
> So, you pay out the nose to get the outstanding performance of an 18M glider, then you pay even more to be able to fly it in a lower performance configuration. Makes no sense.
>
> I wonder what % of 15/18M ships are sold with the 15M tip options.
In 2015 15 meter tips for an ASG-29 were about 7,500 Euro. It makes plenty of sense if it fits your flying. If you want to compete in both 15 and 18 meter contests, resale value, all your friends have 15 meter gliders and you like to fly with them.... etc. Two gliders for almost the price of one. I do know several 29E owners who did not get the 15 meter tips and I even know one pilot with a 29 who did not order the 18 meter tips. What makes no sense to you might make plenty of sense to someone else.
Tom Kelley #711
August 15th 17, 11:15 PM
On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 2:45:40 PM UTC-6, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 11:13:57 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > There will surely be 15m tips for the V3.
> >
> > 15M tips are a very expensive option. 15 years ago for a V2C, the 15M tips were upwards of $7000 USD. Certainly more now.
> >
> > So, you pay out the nose to get the outstanding performance of an 18M glider, then you pay even more to be able to fly it in a lower performance configuration. Makes no sense.
> >
> > I wonder what % of 15/18M ships are sold with the 15M tip options.
>
> In 2015 15 meter tips for an ASG-29 were about 7,500 Euro. It makes plenty of sense if it fits your flying. If you want to compete in both 15 and 18 meter contests, resale value, all your friends have 15 meter gliders and you like to fly with them.... etc. Two gliders for almost the price of one.. I do know several 29E owners who did not get the 15 meter tips and I even know one pilot with a 29 who did not order the 18 meter tips. What makes no sense to you might make plenty of sense to someone else.
Well, my ASG 29 wing was made as a 18 Meter wing then cut into a inter and outer panel. I watched as I was their! Also, I saw the 15 meter molds appear as they were finished many years ago. My price for the 15 Meter tips in 2006 was $6,000 USD. Since the 18 meter outer panels come from when the wing is cut, I guess you could tell them to toss them, but that may be the dumbest thing I have ever heard, but this is RAS!
Best. #711.
Jonathan St. Cloud
August 16th 17, 12:11 AM
On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 3:15:51 PM UTC-7, Tom Kelley #711 wrote:
>
> Well, my ASG 29 wing was made as a 18 Meter wing then cut into a inter and outer panel. I watched as I was their! Also, I saw the 15 meter molds appear as they were finished many years ago. My price for the 15 Meter tips in 2006 was $6,000 USD. Since the 18 meter outer panels come from when the wing is cut, I guess you could tell them to toss them, but that may be the dumbest thing I have ever heard, but this is RAS!
> Best. #711.
Perhaps I made an unfounded assumption, I know one ASG-29 who only has the 15 meter tips, met him at Nephi this year. I was under the assumption he purchased it new as he said it never had the 18 meter tips.
Papa3[_2_]
August 16th 17, 03:24 AM
I got my 15M tips after the fact, and I think everything (tips, trailer wingtip holders, installation) cost close to $10K. Was it worth it? It opens up 15M competitions and it also makes it more "sporting" to fly with all of my span-challenged friends. This year, I've got more flights in 15M than 18M.
P3
On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 4:45:40 PM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 11:13:57 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > There will surely be 15m tips for the V3.
> >
> > 15M tips are a very expensive option. 15 years ago for a V2C, the 15M tips were upwards of $7000 USD. Certainly more now.
> >
> > So, you pay out the nose to get the outstanding performance of an 18M glider, then you pay even more to be able to fly it in a lower performance configuration. Makes no sense.
> >
> > I wonder what % of 15/18M ships are sold with the 15M tip options.
>
> In 2015 15 meter tips for an ASG-29 were about 7,500 Euro. It makes plenty of sense if it fits your flying. If you want to compete in both 15 and 18 meter contests, resale value, all your friends have 15 meter gliders and you like to fly with them.... etc. Two gliders for almost the price of one.. I do know several 29E owners who did not get the 15 meter tips and I even know one pilot with a 29 who did not order the 18 meter tips. What makes no sense to you might make plenty of sense to someone else.
One more factor: peer pressure. P3 knows we won't fly with him unless he rigs the 15M tips. That option is worth it to him. :)
To some, $10K for an extra set of wingtips is almost incomprehensible when you can buy a glider for less than that.
Some people think a Mercedes Benz is a great value. Others can't afford one.. Neither view is wrong. There are just a lot more in the latter category than the former. Fortunately, the huge automotive market means there are a lot of very nicely designed and built new cars with advanced engineering and performance at those lower price points. Such is not the case with soaring where manufacturers target their efforts at the high end. Still, I'm past thinking that new, well-performing gliders at much lower prices would suddenly unlock pent up demand and set off huge growth in soaring.
Chip Bearden
waremark
August 16th 17, 09:39 AM
I don't know whether it's true that 27 prices are falling in the UK. However,if it was true it would have a lot to do with engines. Most of those who can afford a glider with an engine want one. Of the 12 newest gliders at our club (of which 7 are ASG 29s) all but one have engines. This polarises the glider market between new gliders with engines and older cheaper aircraft..
krasw
August 16th 17, 02:14 PM
I think historically glider prices have been extremely stable, you basically get your original investment back when selling (minus inflation). I just selled my glider after 10 years of use with same price as a paid for it, and bought another one for the same price original owner paid 10 years ago.
Glider popularity topped at early 90's, since then number of pilots have dropped significantly. And even them market of used gliders have been remarkably solid. Maybe during last decade or so price of some pure gliders has dropped a bit, especially if glider has no engine or does not have particularly good price/performance ratio, and ASW27 most certainly has neither of these qualities. Nothing to worry about, just drop your price a bit.
On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 9:14:28 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
> I think historically glider prices have been extremely stable, you basically get your original investment back when selling (minus inflation). I just selled my glider after 10 years of use with same price as a paid for it, and bought another one for the same price original owner paid 10 years ago.
>
> Glider popularity topped at early 90's, since then number of pilots have dropped significantly. And even them market of used gliders have been remarkably solid. Maybe during last decade or so price of some pure gliders has dropped a bit, especially if glider has no engine or does not have particularly good price/performance ratio, and ASW27 most certainly has neither of these qualities. Nothing to worry about, just drop your price a bit.
I sold my '27 after 17 years of fun for almost exactly what I had in it(made a couple thousand). That, and $50,000 moved me to the next step('29). I got a really nice glider, about 4% more performance, 40% higher insurance, and heavier wings to rig.
27's are one of the great sailplanes we have and are a very good value, relative to the fleet.
Anybody that thinks they can buy a '27 cheap enough to pay for the coming refinish is kidding themselves. You can realize about 1/2 the cost of a good refinish in market value.
The rest comes down to what the market will pay. I note that there is one '27 for sale on the German website and it is at a bit over $80k USD.
FWIW
UH
Dan Marotta
August 16th 17, 03:49 PM
Since this thread has drifted to the relative merits of 15 vs. 18 meter
spans - I flew my LAK-17a in 15 meter configuration during the summer
months when I could fly with higher wing loading. I converted to 18
meters in the winter months for the lower sink rate. Since I don't care
about competition, that worked just fine for me.
On 8/15/2017 8:24 PM, Papa3 wrote:
> I got my 15M tips after the fact, and I think everything (tips, trailer wingtip holders, installation) cost close to $10K. Was it worth it? It opens up 15M competitions and it also makes it more "sporting" to fly with all of my span-challenged friends. This year, I've got more flights in 15M than 18M.
>
> P3
>
> On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 4:45:40 PM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>> On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 11:13:57 AM UTC-7, wrote:
>>>> There will surely be 15m tips for the V3.
>>> 15M tips are a very expensive option. 15 years ago for a V2C, the 15M tips were upwards of $7000 USD. Certainly more now.
>>>
>>> So, you pay out the nose to get the outstanding performance of an 18M glider, then you pay even more to be able to fly it in a lower performance configuration. Makes no sense.
>>>
>>> I wonder what % of 15/18M ships are sold with the 15M tip options.
>> In 2015 15 meter tips for an ASG-29 were about 7,500 Euro. It makes plenty of sense if it fits your flying. If you want to compete in both 15 and 18 meter contests, resale value, all your friends have 15 meter gliders and you like to fly with them.... etc. Two gliders for almost the price of one. I do know several 29E owners who did not get the 15 meter tips and I even know one pilot with a 29 who did not order the 18 meter tips. What makes no sense to you might make plenty of sense to someone else.
--
Dan, 5J
My impression (no idea how accurate it is) was that the move to 18M had less to do with a modest performance increase and more to do with what was considered to be a more viable platform for motors, in particular self launch. Having seen Francois Pin's really impressive ASW 27 FES conversion self launch at Cordele this year, I'm wondering how strong the 18M movement would have been if FES technology had been available when that class was launched. Perhaps the factories would have gotten behind 18M anyway just to sell more new gliders.
Chip Bearden
Jim White[_3_]
August 18th 17, 08:40 AM
I have a 27 and cannot afford to upgrade to a 29 with engine which I would
have liked to do for the stronger competition scene.
I believe that there are jet retrofit options coming from PSR and M&D which
seems like a good solution for my increasing years. I am told the PSR works
out about $30k euro / dollars fitted.
Because of the weakness of the pound at the moment my refinished 27 is
probably worth about £55K so the package would owe me £80k which is at
least £40k less than the 29!
BTW I love my 27 having flown 2000 hours in it.
Jonathan St. Cloud
August 21st 17, 02:33 PM
On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 10:57:41 PM UTC-7, wrote:
....> To some, $10K for an extra set of wingtips is almost incomprehensible when you can buy a glider for less than that.
>
....
> Chip Bearden
Or since one usually buys the extra tips when they order the glider, the thought process is more likely, wow I can fly two classes for only an extra 4-5% increase in initial cost. And for the small increase in purchase price lowers you unit costs of 15/18 meter glider by half :)
Magnetar
August 21st 17, 05:27 PM
My little 2 cents on this super interesting topic as a young pilot:
_When considering to buy an used ship, it's not only the purchasing price that is taken into account but also the resell value. How is it going to hold in the next years to come? No one knows but the increasing number of good sailplane manufacturers (Jonkers, Winward perf, LAK manufacturer, etc.) with excellent machines leaves me to believe this is going to drive prices down in the future.
_Having multiple racing classes is not going to drive growth but rather the opposite as the choice to race is based (for me at least) on whether I can have fun without too much risk. 18M planes theoretically out-glide 15M sailplanes and therefore seem to be more attractive. Open class is just too much of an hassle logistically speaking, it requires more skills and landing out is quite an adventure depending on the terrain. If I had to choose, I would go for the 18M as it is fun, fast and a good compromise between 15M and open-class.
_Sustainer/Motorized/pure? It's a touchy subject, flying with no engine is the purest form of gliding... However, having witnessed first hand my friends using the turbo to escape a land-out while I conceded my 'defeat' and landed-out for a very very long & frustrating retrieve, I must say I was envious of this little piece of engineering on their back! It's a nice fail-safe. Now, motorization is really the thing that takes it out of the crowd: you can go wherever you want, whenever you want. This is the purest form of liberty, which is what soaring is about.
All in all, as a young pilot who wants to learn and develop my skills as I age, here is what my plan would look like:
_Learn how to fly basic gliders (ASK-23/1-34/Pegasus/LS4) until being able to fly X-country on a regular basis - DONE
_Buy an used club glider with good performances (LS4? Pegasus? Discus?) and learn how to go further out (500km, 750km) building more and more experience on X-country flights. Start competing in Club contests. Unknown timeframe, several years for sure!
_Upon feeling okay (and after being checked by a CFI), transition to a high-performance sailplane with sustainer, making the transition to 15M class. This is where I would LOVE to fly a modified ASW27 FES as it is a good stepping stone to high performance competition.
_Ultimately, buy a motorized 18M ship (Ventus 2cM? ASH 26?) to go on soaring adventures, safaris, etc.
OR
_I could also stop at the 15M as performance is already amazing (Thank You B4 for all those inspiring videos!!!) and I would still be extremely satisfied flying those beautiful birds. I would just need this sustainer/motorization though.
That would be my plan, knowing that each step could take years... But it's like wine: the more you wait for a Grand Cru, the better it gets. But one should not wait too long otherwise you miss the golden period!
Now, this could explain the lack of interest for 27s: if I want to go up to 15M competition and stretch my limits, I need a sustainer that 27s don't have. Don't get me wrong, the ASW27 IS the most beautiful sailplane ever designed aesthetically and technically speaking. The best value for money also.. If it were to have a sustainer/FES/Jet/whatever, I would NOT hesitate for a second. However, it suffers from not having it and therefore could look less attractive than a Ventus 2bT (still beautiful, but less than the 27. Sorry Schempp-Hirth).
Again, my 2 cents. I would love to hear from other owners their buying process throughout their flying lives.. Extremely inspiring to see you guys with those amazing machines, thank you for showing us how it's done!
Cheers!
Oh Lord won't you buy me an ash thirty one. All my friends fly Stemmes and the club 1-26 just ain't fun...
Steve Koerner
August 21st 17, 07:03 PM
Excellent plan Magnetar! Just don't put so much importance on the motor; motors are for old guys. Half the adventures of soaring are the adventures of landing out.
On Monday, August 21, 2017 at 9:28:04 AM UTC-7, Magnetar wrote:
> My little 2 cents on this super interesting topic as a young pilot:
>
> _When considering to buy an used ship, it's not only the purchasing price that is taken into account but also the resell value. How is it going to hold in the next years to come? No one knows but the increasing number of good sailplane manufacturers (Jonkers, Winward perf, LAK manufacturer, etc.) with excellent machines leaves me to believe this is going to drive prices down in the future.
> _Having multiple racing classes is not going to drive growth but rather the opposite as the choice to race is based (for me at least) on whether I can have fun without too much risk. 18M planes theoretically out-glide 15M sailplanes and therefore seem to be more attractive. Open class is just too much of an hassle logistically speaking, it requires more skills and landing out is quite an adventure depending on the terrain. If I had to choose, I would go for the 18M as it is fun, fast and a good compromise between 15M and open-class.
> _Sustainer/Motorized/pure? It's a touchy subject, flying with no engine is the purest form of gliding... However, having witnessed first hand my friends using the turbo to escape a land-out while I conceded my 'defeat' and landed-out for a very very long & frustrating retrieve, I must say I was envious of this little piece of engineering on their back! It's a nice fail-safe. Now, motorization is really the thing that takes it out of the crowd: you can go wherever you want, whenever you want. This is the purest form of liberty, which is what soaring is about.
>
> All in all, as a young pilot who wants to learn and develop my skills as I age, here is what my plan would look like:
> _Learn how to fly basic gliders (ASK-23/1-34/Pegasus/LS4) until being able to fly X-country on a regular basis - DONE
> _Buy an used club glider with good performances (LS4? Pegasus? Discus?) and learn how to go further out (500km, 750km) building more and more experience on X-country flights. Start competing in Club contests. Unknown timeframe, several years for sure!
> _Upon feeling okay (and after being checked by a CFI), transition to a high-performance sailplane with sustainer, making the transition to 15M class.. This is where I would LOVE to fly a modified ASW27 FES as it is a good stepping stone to high performance competition.
> _Ultimately, buy a motorized 18M ship (Ventus 2cM? ASH 26?) to go on soaring adventures, safaris, etc.
> OR
> _I could also stop at the 15M as performance is already amazing (Thank You B4 for all those inspiring videos!!!) and I would still be extremely satisfied flying those beautiful birds. I would just need this sustainer/motorization though.
>
> That would be my plan, knowing that each step could take years... But it's like wine: the more you wait for a Grand Cru, the better it gets. But one should not wait too long otherwise you miss the golden period!
>
> Now, this could explain the lack of interest for 27s: if I want to go up to 15M competition and stretch my limits, I need a sustainer that 27s don't have. Don't get me wrong, the ASW27 IS the most beautiful sailplane ever designed aesthetically and technically speaking. The best value for money also. If it were to have a sustainer/FES/Jet/whatever, I would NOT hesitate for a second. However, it suffers from not having it and therefore could look less attractive than a Ventus 2bT (still beautiful, but less than the 27. Sorry Schempp-Hirth).
>
> Again, my 2 cents. I would love to hear from other owners their buying process throughout their flying lives.. Extremely inspiring to see you guys with those amazing machines, thank you for showing us how it's done!
>
> Cheers!
KEN
August 21st 17, 10:13 PM
On Monday, August 21, 2017 at 12:28:04 PM UTC-4, Magnetar wrote:
> My little 2 cents on this super interesting topic as a young pilot:
>
> _When considering to buy an used ship, it's not only the purchasing price that is taken into account but also the resell value. How is it going to hold in the next years to come? No one knows but the increasing number of good sailplane manufacturers (Jonkers, Winward perf, LAK manufacturer, etc.) with excellent machines leaves me to believe this is going to drive prices down in the future.
> _Having multiple racing classes is not going to drive growth but rather the opposite as the choice to race is based (for me at least) on whether I can have fun without too much risk. 18M planes theoretically out-glide 15M sailplanes and therefore seem to be more attractive. Open class is just too much of an hassle logistically speaking, it requires more skills and landing out is quite an adventure depending on the terrain. If I had to choose, I would go for the 18M as it is fun, fast and a good compromise between 15M and open-class.
> _Sustainer/Motorized/pure? It's a touchy subject, flying with no engine is the purest form of gliding... However, having witnessed first hand my friends using the turbo to escape a land-out while I conceded my 'defeat' and landed-out for a very very long & frustrating retrieve, I must say I was envious of this little piece of engineering on their back! It's a nice fail-safe. Now, motorization is really the thing that takes it out of the crowd: you can go wherever you want, whenever you want. This is the purest form of liberty, which is what soaring is about.
>
> All in all, as a young pilot who wants to learn and develop my skills as I age, here is what my plan would look like:
> _Learn how to fly basic gliders (ASK-23/1-34/Pegasus/LS4) until being able to fly X-country on a regular basis - DONE
> _Buy an used club glider with good performances (LS4? Pegasus? Discus?) and learn how to go further out (500km, 750km) building more and more experience on X-country flights. Start competing in Club contests. Unknown timeframe, several years for sure!
> _Upon feeling okay (and after being checked by a CFI), transition to a high-performance sailplane with sustainer, making the transition to 15M class.. This is where I would LOVE to fly a modified ASW27 FES as it is a good stepping stone to high performance competition.
> _Ultimately, buy a motorized 18M ship (Ventus 2cM? ASH 26?) to go on soaring adventures, safaris, etc.
> OR
> _I could also stop at the 15M as performance is already amazing (Thank You B4 for all those inspiring videos!!!) and I would still be extremely satisfied flying those beautiful birds. I would just need this sustainer/motorization though.
>
> That would be my plan, knowing that each step could take years... But it's like wine: the more you wait for a Grand Cru, the better it gets. But one should not wait too long otherwise you miss the golden period!
>
> Now, this could explain the lack of interest for 27s: if I want to go up to 15M competition and stretch my limits, I need a sustainer that 27s don't have. Don't get me wrong, the ASW27 IS the most beautiful sailplane ever designed aesthetically and technically speaking. The best value for money also. If it were to have a sustainer/FES/Jet/whatever, I would NOT hesitate for a second. However, it suffers from not having it and therefore could look less attractive than a Ventus 2bT (still beautiful, but less than the 27. Sorry Schempp-Hirth).
>
> Again, my 2 cents. I would love to hear from other owners their buying process throughout their flying lives.. Extremely inspiring to see you guys with those amazing machines, thank you for showing us how it's done!
>
> Cheers !Well Magnetar, Now there is no reason to hesitate. There is one FESL ASW 27B in the US with the possibility of 3 more shorty. Also plans for a jet installation in the ASW 27.
Ross[_3_]
August 24th 17, 12:23 AM
Buy a 27 with a jet. It is there, available and goes like hell
Best glider ever,
Except a libelle with a self launch E motor which will be available sometime soon
JS[_5_]
August 24th 17, 05:10 AM
On Wednesday, August 23, 2017 at 4:23:19 PM UTC-7, Ross wrote:
> Buy a 27 with a jet. It is there, available and goes like hell
> Best glider ever,
> Except a libelle with a self launch E motor which will be available sometime soon
I looked at the PSR system, was going to put one in an ASW27. It might be OK for flat land flying, but unless something has recently changed does not have the stamina for mountain flying. Not enough fuel capacity, climb rate, or run duration at a power level that provides a climb.
With enough interest M+D will design a system for 27/28/29. It will be a good one, seen loads in JS1s. But perhaps don't try starting it in the rain, or you could end up in a field, taking breath tests and "walking a line" for Texas police.
Wait for the US 18m Nationals article for more detail.
Jim
ripacheco1967
May 15th 19, 11:35 PM
On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 6:00:32 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> There are 3 nice ASW27's for sale, all at reduced prices in the Wings and Wheels website. We 3 owners are mystified at the seeming lack of interest in this ship. Two of us are no longer flying thanks to Father Time and we're throwing in lots of soaring related "goodies" with your purchase.
>
>
>
> http://wingsandwheels.com/classifieds/?m=glider
There 2 AWS27 on W&W now one AWS 27 for 60K and a AWS 27b for 80K.
I can see that people seem to prefer motor-gliders these days... at least on the new ones...
Bob Youngblood
May 16th 19, 12:28 AM
On Wednesday, May 15, 2019 at 6:35:31 PM UTC-4, ripacheco1967 wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 6:00:32 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > There are 3 nice ASW27's for sale, all at reduced prices in the Wings and Wheels website. We 3 owners are mystified at the seeming lack of interest in this ship. Two of us are no longer flying thanks to Father Time and we're throwing in lots of soaring related "goodies" with your purchase.
> >
> >
> >
> > http://wingsandwheels.com/classifieds/?m=glider
>
> There 2 AWS27 on W&W now one AWS 27 for 60K and a AWS 27b for 80K.
Some interesting facts, the ASW27 is as good as the ASG29 in the 15 meter configuration. Lot less money and with the right person at the stick you may even be surprised. The 27 is as good as any fifteen meter ship around, maybe better. I had a new 20 back in the late 70's and I have always said that if there was a hall of fame for gliders the 20 would be at the top of the list. The 27 is a great 15 meter ship. I took a look at the 15 meter national scores and the 27 is as competitive as any. You usually get what you pay for.
>
> I can see that people seem to prefer motor-gliders these days... at least on the new ones...
Jonathan St. Cloud
May 16th 19, 01:35 AM
On Wednesday, May 15, 2019 at 4:28:50 PM UTC-7, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 15, 2019 at 6:35:31 PM UTC-4, ripacheco1967 wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 6:00:32 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > > There are 3 nice ASW27's for sale, all at reduced prices in the Wings and Wheels website. We 3 owners are mystified at the seeming lack of interest in this ship. Two of us are no longer flying thanks to Father Time and we're throwing in lots of soaring related "goodies" with your purchase.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > http://wingsandwheels.com/classifieds/?m=glider
> >
> > There 2 AWS27 on W&W now one AWS 27 for 60K and a AWS 27b for 80K.
>
>
> Some interesting facts, the ASW27 is as good as the ASG29 in the 15 meter configuration. Lot less money and with the right person at the stick you may even be surprised. The 27 is as good as any fifteen meter ship around, maybe better. I had a new 20 back in the late 70's and I have always said that if there was a hall of fame for gliders the 20 would be at the top of the list. The 27 is a great 15 meter ship. I took a look at the 15 meter national scores and the 27 is as competitive as any. You usually get what you pay for.
> >
> > I can see that people seem to prefer motor-gliders these days... at least on the new ones...
ASW-27 has something the ASG-29 doesn't have, about 50 pound lighter wings!
George Haeh
May 16th 19, 03:07 AM
One reason I moved from a nice 20C to a 27 was lighter wings. Rigging and derigging easier for older pilots.
But there's costs for the automatic hookups and carbon fiber: smaller O2 bottle and maybe external antennas for PowerFLARM and transponder.
On Wednesday, May 15, 2019 at 7:07:58 PM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
> One reason I moved from a nice 20C to a 27 was lighter wings. Rigging and derigging easier for older pilots.
>
> But there's costs for the automatic hookups and carbon fiber: smaller O2 bottle and maybe external antennas for PowerFLARM and transponder.
It would be cheaper to buy a one-man rigger (a real back-saver).
Tom
Nick Kennedy[_3_]
May 18th 19, 03:14 PM
ASW 27 or ASW27B + modern self rigger, ahhhh that's the way to go.
Light and easy. Good for us old farts.
George Haeh
May 18th 19, 06:39 PM
Got the one man rigger.
ripacheco1967
May 23rd 19, 09:58 PM
So much for falling prices... the 80K AWS27 got sold... only one 60K is left...
Paul Agnew
May 23rd 19, 10:39 PM
On Thursday, May 23, 2019 at 4:58:07 PM UTC-4, ripacheco1967 wrote:
> So much for falling prices... the 80K AWS27 got sold... only one 60K is left...
The question is what the 80k one actually sold for.
PA
Mike C
May 23rd 19, 11:52 PM
On Thursday, May 23, 2019 at 3:39:20 PM UTC-6, Paul Agnew wrote:
> On Thursday, May 23, 2019 at 4:58:07 PM UTC-4, ripacheco1967 wrote:
> > So much for falling prices... the 80K AWS27 got sold... only one 60K is left...
If you are interested in types, check out a used LAK 17a 15/18. They are nice sailplanes, comfortable and easy to fly, with very good performance.
Mike
ripacheco1967
May 24th 19, 03:55 AM
There is a couple for sale on W&W one is SOLO powered not self launch though
The HpH 304 CZ in the same category or "no way".
I'm new to all this.
Mike C
May 24th 19, 07:07 AM
On Thursday, May 23, 2019 at 8:55:49 PM UTC-6, ripacheco1967 wrote:
> There is a couple for sale on W&W one is SOLO powered not self launch though
> The HpH 304 CZ in the same category or "no way".
> I'm new to all this.
I think the Lak 17a performs closer to the 304S especially at higher cruising speeds. I use to own a Mini Nimbus and flying with a 304CZ, the CZ was MAYBE slightly better in cruise, and definitely a little better in climb, maybe because the 304 had winglets (also the Mini was flying with a little bit higher wing loading). The LAK I now own is quite a bit better than the Mini.
Look at the sports class handicaps to get a general idea on performance differences between sailplanes.
Mike
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