Be ready for the worst!

[Ed Byars]

Be ready for the worst:

I totaled my ASW-28 last summer. The next day while I was "out of it" in the
hospital, the Feds (FAA-FISDO not the NTSB {because I didn't get killed I
guess}) inspected the damaged glider and removed all paperwork and my
smashed PDA. A few weeks later they returned all by mail with a formal form
letter thanking me and no other comment. This is the absolute best case
scenario I could have hoped for. Of course it was not admitted but I am
convinced that this was a compliment for my paperwork thoroughness. I had
luckily gone through my annual checklist at the beginning of the season.

This is a warning to remind you to check your paperwork. Here is what I had
in my glider, all required.

1. Glider Log book (up to date)

In a pouch in the back of the log book was:

2. Pink Airworthiness Certificate (Experimental-Racing & Exhibition)

3. Six page 34 item provisions for above

4. Program letter for current year (copy of one that went to FISDO)

5. Exemption letter (for absence of ID on exterior tail),(Expired)

6. Extension letter for the expired exemption letter.

7. Weight and Balance

I did not have the Aircraft Flight Manual aboard. I knew it was required but
took a chance and left this bulky item at home.

It's not exactly "paperwork" but don't forget the placards in the cockpit
area. Feds love to check them (it's a no-brainer for them).

Check your paperwork. Don't give them an excuse to nail you.



The above is bad enough but what about insurance?

The day after my boo-boo my friends collected the bones in the trailer, took
them to a safe place and called my insurance Co (AIG).

In a couple of days an adjuster came to inspect and take photos and with a
request to me for copies of:

1. FAA license

2. Current Medical (Yeah I know it's not required but it was requested)

3. Current BFR

4. Last five pages of my personal flight log book, especially the page
showing where an instructor signed me off for the type glider in question.

5. Front page and last two pages of Glider log book showing current
annual (conditional in this case).

When able I sent all this stuff. Thank goodness everything was up to date.

Then they could not have been nicer. They arranged to pick up the bones (no
questions about it being totaled) and sent me a full check immediately. I
had it insured for what it cost me, which of course was now underinsured I
reminded them that the trailer was not insured by them and was not included.
No problem.

Same warning. Don't give the insurance company a chance to mail you.

Ed Byars

[Andy Blackburn]

Glad to have you back Ed! Hope you're fully back in
flying form and have found a new ride.

Seems like there has been an uptick in FAA inspections
for paperwork - and not just in cases of accidents.

BTW, did anybody check the repack date on your 'chute,
or is that only in cases where you actually used it?

9B


At 17:12 28 March 2004, Ed Byars wrote:
>
>
>
>
>Be ready for the worst:
>
>I totaled my ASW-28 last summer. The next day while
>I was 'out of it' in the
>hospital, the Feds (FAA-FISDO not the NTSB {because
>I didn't get killed I
>guess}) inspected the damaged glider and removed all
>paperwork and my
>smashed PDA. A few weeks later they returned all by
>mail with a formal form
>letter thanking me and no other comment. This is the
>absolute best case
>scenario I could have hoped for. Of course it was not
>admitted but I am
>convinced that this was a compliment for my paperwork
>thoroughness. I had
>luckily gone through my annual checklist at the beginning
>of the season.
>
>This is a warning to remind you to check your paperwork.
>Here is what I had
>in my glider, all required.
>
>1. Glider Log book (up to date)
>
>In a pouch in the back of the log book was:
>
>2. Pink Airworthiness Certificate (Experimental-Racing
>& Exhibition)
>
>3. Six page 34 item provisions for above
>
>4. Program letter for current year (copy of one that
>went to FISDO)
>
>5. Exemption letter (for absence of ID on exterior
>tail),(Expired)
>
>6. Extension letter for the expired exemption letter.
>
>7. Weight and Balance
>
>I did not have the Aircraft Flight Manual aboard. I
>knew it was required but
>took a chance and left this bulky item at home.
>
> It's not exactly 'paperwork' but don't forget the
>placards in the cockpit
>area. Feds love to check them (it's a no-brainer for
>them).
>
>Check your paperwork. Don't give them an excuse to
>nail you.
>
>
>
>The above is bad enough but what about insurance?
>
>The day after my boo-boo my friends collected the bones
>in the trailer, took
>them to a safe place and called my insurance Co (AIG).
>
>In a couple of days an adjuster came to inspect and
>take photos and with a
>request to me for copies of:
>
>1. FAA license
>
>2. Current Medical (Yeah I know it's not required
>but it was requested)
>
>3. Current BFR
>
>4. Last five pages of my personal flight log book,
>especially the page
>showing where an instructor signed me off for the type
>glider in question.
>
>5. Front page and last two pages of Glider log
>book showing current
>annual (conditional in this case).
>
>When able I sent all this stuff. Thank goodness everything
>was up to date.
>
>Then they could not have been nicer. They arranged
>to pick up the bones (no
>questions about it being totaled) and sent me a full
>check immediately. I
>had it insured for what it cost me, which of course
>was now underinsured I
>reminded them that the trailer was not insured by them
>and was not included.
>No problem.
>
>Same warning. Don't give the insurance company a chance
>to mail you.
>
>Ed Byars
>
>
>
>
>

[Michael McNulty]

"Ed Byars" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
>

Thanks for the nice reminder. I have a couple of questions embedded below.

>
>
> Be ready for the worst:
>
> This is a warning to remind you to check your paperwork. Here is what I
had
> in my glider, all required.
>
> 1. Glider Log book (up to date)
>

I was not aware that the glider log book is required to be in the aircraft.
Are you sure that this is true? What regulation requires this?

>
> In a pouch in the back of the log book was:
>
> 2. Pink Airworthiness Certificate (Experimental-Racing & Exhibition)
>
> 3. Six page 34 item provisions for above
>
> 4. Program letter for current year (copy of one that went to FISDO)
>
> 5. Exemption letter (for absence of ID on exterior tail),(Expired)
>
> 6. Extension letter for the expired exemption letter.
>
> 7. Weight and Balance
>
> I did not have the Aircraft Flight Manual aboard. I knew it was required
but
> took a chance and left this bulky item at home.
>

I am not aware that the flight manual is required to be in the aircraft. I
believe that all of the information that I am required to have on board is
contained on my placards (which are complete, including the weight and
balance limits). The placards are what my operating limitations address,
and as the aircraft is not certified, there is no such thing as an "approved
flight manual".


>
> It's not exactly "paperwork" but don't forget the placards in the cockpit
> area. Feds love to check them (it's a no-brainer for them).
>
> Check your paperwork. Don't give them an excuse to nail you.
>
>
>
> The above is bad enough but what about insurance?
>
> The day after my boo-boo my friends collected the bones in the trailer,
took
> them to a safe place and called my insurance Co (AIG).
>
> In a couple of days an adjuster came to inspect and take photos and with a
> request to me for copies of:
>
> 1. FAA license
>
> 2. Current Medical (Yeah I know it's not required but it was
requested)
>
> 3. Current BFR
>
> 4. Last five pages of my personal flight log book, especially the page
> showing where an instructor signed me off for the type glider in question.
>
> 5. Front page and last two pages of Glider log book showing current
> annual (conditional in this case).
>
> When able I sent all this stuff. Thank goodness everything was up to date.
>
> Then they could not have been nicer. They arranged to pick up the bones
(no
> questions about it being totaled) and sent me a full check immediately. I
> had it insured for what it cost me, which of course was now underinsured I
> reminded them that the trailer was not insured by them and was not
included.
> No problem.
>
> Same warning. Don't give the insurance company a chance to mail you.
>
> Ed Byars
>
>
>
>

[Marc Ramsey]

Michael McNulty wrote:
> I am not aware that the flight manual is required to be in the aircraft. I
> believe that all of the information that I am required to have on board is
> contained on my placards (which are complete, including the weight and
> balance limits). The placards are what my operating limitations address,
> and as the aircraft is not certified, there is no such thing as an "approved
> flight manual".

Check you operating limitations again. Every set I've had has included
a clause that requires carrying the manufacturers flight manual, along
with the placards.

Marc

[Michael McNulty]

"Marc Ramsey" > wrote in message
. com...
> Michael McNulty wrote:
> > I am not aware that the flight manual is required to be in the aircraft.
I
> > believe that all of the information that I am required to have on board
is
> > contained on my placards (which are complete, including the weight and
> > balance limits). The placards are what my operating limitations
address,
> > and as the aircraft is not certified, there is no such thing as an
"approved
> > flight manual".
>
> Check you operating limitations again. Every set I've had has included
> a clause that requires carrying the manufacturers flight manual, along
> with the placards.
>
> Marc

I just double checked.

My operating limitations do say that I must have "the placards, markings,
etc. required by 91.9" , but there is not any specific reference to the
flight manual. Since my aircraft is experimental, an "approved flight
manual" does not exist, and I fully believe that my placards meet the
requirements of 91.9 for "approved manual material, markings, and placards
or any combination thereof". Again, the relevant document is the aircraft's
particular operating limitations. My operating limitations do require a
specific placard that states the weight and balance limits, Vne, and Va.
(My operating limitations were issued in October 2001, and I believe that
they follow the FAA inspectors handbook guidelines very closely.)

I suppose I could carry a copy of the manual, but I think I'm on pretty
solid ground without it.

[Ed Byars]

If I remember correctly (not too likely) the Manufacturer's Flight Manual
says something like " this manual must be keep in aircraft". Also upon
review I could find no specific Reg requiring aircraft log book to be in
aircraft. It is however, the first thing the Feds will request.
I know in power craft we never carry the paperwork/log briefcase in the
airplane. We even kid with friends making them promise to burn all the
records in case we crash.
Since the glider has no recording tach or Hobbs it's been a habit of mine
for decades to keep the log in the glider where I can keep it current after
each flight.
I would like to check my op. limitations but they went with the glider.
Incidentally I used a small font, reducing Xerox, and both sides to condense
the bulky multi page operating limitations to an almost illegible but a neat
card or two for the cockpit. Same for most other paperwork.
It's interesting to speculate if the placards referring to cockpit weights
will suffice for the W&B requirement.
Also I've heard that we are required only to "show" the Paperwork, not
surrender it. Is this just for the license on a ramp check or for all
"paperwork"? I sure didn't have any choice when they removed everything from
my glider in my absence. I feel sure they were within their rights. Weren't
they?
Remember the FAA motto: We're not happy until you're not happy. I'm
kidding.........some of my best friends are with the FAA.


"Michael McNulty" > wrote in message
news:6vF9c.6663$GH3.1276@fed1read07...
>
> "Marc Ramsey" > wrote in message
> . com...
> > Michael McNulty wrote:
> > > I am not aware that the flight manual is required to be in the
aircraft.
> I
> > > believe that all of the information that I am required to have on
board
> is
> > > contained on my placards (which are complete, including the weight and
> > > balance limits). The placards are what my operating limitations
> address,
> > > and as the aircraft is not certified, there is no such thing as an
> "approved
> > > flight manual".
> >
> > Check you operating limitations again. Every set I've had has included
> > a clause that requires carrying the manufacturers flight manual, along
> > with the placards.
> >
> > Marc
>
> I just double checked.
>
> My operating limitations do say that I must have "the placards, markings,
> etc. required by 91.9" , but there is not any specific reference to the
> flight manual. Since my aircraft is experimental, an "approved flight
> manual" does not exist, and I fully believe that my placards meet the
> requirements of 91.9 for "approved manual material, markings, and placards
> or any combination thereof". Again, the relevant document is the
aircraft's
> particular operating limitations. My operating limitations do require a
> specific placard that states the weight and balance limits, Vne, and Va.
> (My operating limitations were issued in October 2001, and I believe that
> they follow the FAA inspectors handbook guidelines very closely.)
>
> I suppose I could carry a copy of the manual, but I think I'm on pretty
> solid ground without it.
>
>

[Jim Vincent]

>Since the glider has no recording tach or Hobbs it's been a habit of mine
>for decades to keep the log in the glider where I can keep it current after
>each flight.

My glider is registered Experimental and the Operations Limitations state that
the log book must be kept in the aircraft.

I specifically asked the FAA whether I had to log immediately after every
flight or could just update periodically. He said periodically was fine.
Consequentely, my partner and I only update the logbook once a year at annual
inspection.

Jim Vincent
CFIG
N483SZ

[Eric Greenwell]

Jim Vincent wrote:
>>Since the glider has no recording tach or Hobbs it's been a habit of mine
>>for decades to keep the log in the glider where I can keep it current after
>>each flight.
>
>
> My glider is registered Experimental and the Operations Limitations state that
> the log book must be kept in the aircraft.
>
> I specifically asked the FAA whether I had to log immediately after every
> flight or could just update periodically. He said periodically was fine.
> Consequentely, my partner and I only update the logbook once a year at annual
> inspection.

My operating limitations state: "This aircraft shall contain the
placards, markings, flight manual, etc., developed for this aircraft."

I recklessly fly without the flight manual in the glider! Has anyone
been busted for doing this? If you carry it, have you EVER referred to
it in flight? Is the German version acceptable, even if I can't read
German? I imagine a pilot nearing Vne in a steepening spiral, thumbing
through the pages, looking for G loadings with/without spoilers open...

I DO carry all the "etc." with me, because they are important.

--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Cliff Hilty]

Glad to see your OK Ed and welcome back! A few years
back I totaled a ASW-19 in a field in Utah, I was not
seriously hurt and only minor damage to the field.
I removed the plane and repaired the damage. I contacted
the Salt lake city FSDO and my insurance company the
next day. They both asked for exactly the same things
most of which you mentioned: Current BFR documentation,
Current Medical, last 5 pages or last 20 hours of my
pilot log (which I had over 70 hours in the last page
so they only got 1 page), current annual page out of
the aircraft log book and a brief description of what
happened. I never heard back from the FSDO, and the
insurance (Costello) paid off without a hitch. Maybe
I was just lucky----err I take that back I WAS lucky
(went through a fence at the end of a field without
decapitating myself)!

[Chip Fitzpatrick]

Anyone remember the scenes in Those Magnificent Men in Their Flying
machines with the German officer who can do anything?

BTW, it is just out on DVD.

Chip F

[Jim Vincent]

>Anyone remember the scenes in Those Magnificent Men in Their Flying
>machines with the German officer who can do anything?

True, but YOU MUST FOLLOW ZEE BOOK OF INSTRUCTIONZ!!!

On DVD, cool!

Jim Vincent
CFIG
N483SZ

[Steve Pawling]

Yeah, I have been watching for the TMMiTFM DVD for quite a while. So,
when I saw it was available a couple of weeks ago, I ordered it.
Received it last week and already took a look. I was disappointed to
notice just one mention of Derek Piggot in the additional photos and
information. Other additional info is really interesting none the
less. Anyone interested in the movie should also try to get the book -
I found one at abebooks.com.

All the best,
Steve

(Chip Fitzpatrick) wrote in message >...
> Anyone remember the scenes in Those Magnificent Men in Their Flying
> machines with the German officer who can do anything?
>
> BTW, it is just out on DVD.
>
> Chip F

[Andrew Warbrick]

At 17:06 29 March 2004, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>Jim Vincent wrote:
>>>Since the glider has no recording tach or Hobbs it's
>>>been a habit of mine
>>>for decades to keep the log in the glider where I can
>>>keep it current after
>>>each flight.
>>
>>
>> My glider is registered Experimental and the Operations
>>Limitations state that
>> the log book must be kept in the aircraft.
>>
>> I specifically asked the FAA whether I had to log
>>immediately after every
>> flight or could just update periodically. He said
>>periodically was fine.
>> Consequentely, my partner and I only update the logbook
>>once a year at annual
>> inspection.
>
>My operating limitations state: 'This aircraft shall
>contain the
>placards, markings, flight manual, etc., developed
>for this aircraft.'
>
>I recklessly fly without the flight manual in the glider!
>Has anyone
>been busted for doing this? If you carry it, have you
>EVER referred to
>it in flight? Is the German version acceptable, even
>if I can't read
>German? I imagine a pilot nearing Vne in a steepening
>spiral, thumbing
>through the pages, looking for G loadings with/without
>spoilers open...
>
>I DO carry all the 'etc.' with me, because they are
>important.
>
>--
>-----
>change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly
>
>Eric Greenwell
>Washington State
>USA
>
>
The German version is actually the one you should be
carrying. If your manual is worded like mine it will
state that if in doubt you should always refer to the
German original which must be considered authoritative
:). LS were actually helpful enough to provide a small
scale version of the German manual (presumably to make
it easier to fit in the space over the spar) It's a
mad world.

[Bruce Greeff]

Chip Fitzpatrick wrote:
> Anyone remember the scenes in Those Magnificent Men in Their Flying
> machines with the German officer who can do anything?
>
> BTW, it is just out on DVD.
>
> Chip F
I WANT it. Amazon here I come...

[Tom Seim]

> Then they could not have been nicer. They arranged to pick up the bones (no
> questions about it being totaled) and sent me a full check immediately. I
> had it insured for what it cost me, which of course was now underinsured I
> reminded them that the trailer was not insured by them and was not included.
> No problem.
>
> Same warning. Don't give the insurance company a chance to mail you.
>
> Ed Byars

Ed,

While you are patting yourself on your back for having *most* of the
required paperwork on board (put a half of a gold star in your log
book), you completely missed the big picture: you were UNDER INSURED!
This could have led to a very distressing situation: an aircraft that
is damaged, but repairable. The insurance company pays you the face
value of the policy and takes possession of the "wreckage", repairs it
and sells it for more than what they paid you and the repair shop
combined.

Think that this can't happen? Think again! Read your insurance
contract- they have sole discression in this area.

At the very least you need to be fully insured so you can replace your
glider with something comparable. This is clearly an issue with the
dramatic rise of the Euro relative to the dollar.

Tom Seim
Richland, Wa

[Mark James Boyd]

91.9 and 21.5 of US CFR may be helpful.
I don't have a terribly clear idea how this applies
to experimentals, however, or even if 21.5 applies to
experimentals.

For regular ol' aircraft, IIRC before some date
(maybe the '80s?) the POH (AFM?) was fine, then after that,
one needed a manual with a serial number on it.

If anyone wants to illuminate us on the differences
between an AFM and a POH, you're smarter than me...

In article <6vF9c.6663$GH3.1276@fed1read07>,
Michael McNulty > wrote:
>
>"Marc Ramsey" > wrote in message
. com...
>> Michael McNulty wrote:
>> > I am not aware that the flight manual is required to be in the aircraft.
>I
>> > believe that all of the information that I am required to have on board
>is
>> > contained on my placards (which are complete, including the weight and
>> > balance limits). The placards are what my operating limitations
>address,
>> > and as the aircraft is not certified, there is no such thing as an
>"approved
>> > flight manual".
>>
>> Check you operating limitations again. Every set I've had has included
>> a clause that requires carrying the manufacturers flight manual, along
>> with the placards.
>>
>> Marc
>
>I just double checked.
>
>My operating limitations do say that I must have "the placards, markings,
>etc. required by 91.9" , but there is not any specific reference to the
>flight manual. Since my aircraft is experimental, an "approved flight
>manual" does not exist, and I fully believe that my placards meet the
>requirements of 91.9 for "approved manual material, markings, and placards
>or any combination thereof". Again, the relevant document is the aircraft's
>particular operating limitations. My operating limitations do require a
>specific placard that states the weight and balance limits, Vne, and Va.
>(My operating limitations were issued in October 2001, and I believe that
>they follow the FAA inspectors handbook guidelines very closely.)
>
>I suppose I could carry a copy of the manual, but I think I'm on pretty
>solid ground without it.
>
>


--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

[ADP]

Note that 14 CFR 91.9 (b) 1 and 2 only apply to airplanes and rotorcraft. A
glider is neither.
Also 14 CFR 21.5 only applies to airplanes or rotorcraft.

Only 14 CFR 91.9 (a) applies and, thus, it would appear that no flight
manual is required to
be carried in gliders unless the glider's Op Specs requires it to be
carried.

Allan


"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
news:406c7444$1@darkstar...
> 91.9 and 21.5 of US CFR may be helpful.
> I don't have a terribly clear idea how this applies
> to experimentals, however, or even if 21.5 applies to
> experimentals.
>
> For regular ol' aircraft, IIRC before some date
> (maybe the '80s?) the POH (AFM?) was fine, then after that,
> one needed a manual with a serial number on it.
>
> If anyone wants to illuminate us on the differences
> between an AFM and a POH, you're smarter than me...
>
>

[126Flyr]

Remember what's required to be on the aircraft?
The old ARROW, (now AROW):

Airworthiness Certificate
Registration
Operating Limitations
Weight & Balance

The deleted "R" was for Radio station license.

The operating limitations is where the ambiguity starts...
If ALL the operating limitations from the manual are on the placards,
you don't need the manual (AFM or POH) _IF_ you're operating part 91
(doesn't apply to part 121 or 135...but I haven't seen many "Charter
Gliders").

If ALL the limits aren't posted, then you need to carry the manual.

It's really cool being a 1-26 driver...a simple 12 page "leaflet"
covers flight and maintenance manuals! I carry a copy of "the manual"
in my 1-26... Do I ever pull it out in flight? Yeah, like you LS/ASW
drivers do! Could it possibly make life a little less painful in the
event of something terrifying such as a ramp check? Yup. So get
Kinko's to condense 148 pages of manual into a completely un-readable
(without a scanning electron microscope) document that helps you go
above and beyond "legal." I wonder if someday haveing a CD-RoM of the
manual will suffice...just imagine, once you've crashed and no longer
"need" the manual, you can use it as a signal mirror!

When I fly power craft, I PREFER to have a copy of "the manual," when
flying Part 135 or 121, I'm required to. As was pointed out earlier
in the thread, some manufacturers (and Type Certificate Data Sheets)
specify that "the manual" is required on board. The more complex the
airplane (e.g., 747), the more logical this need is.

As a side note, I also prepare custom checklists, which is perfectly
legal as long as each item in "the manual" checklist is on the
home-brew checklist. For those that fly the Piper Seneca, you can
understand that writing a home-brew checklist is a matter of sanity
preservation because the Piper manual has most things completely out
of order...

-Pete

[BTIZ]

Ed, no one answered your "ramp check" question.

If you are ever subject to a ramp check, you only need to "show" your pilot
certificate, and medical if required for power aircraft. Show means that,
show it to them, do not hand it to them. They can ask for but you do not
have to provide them with the aircraft records nor look in the airplane
other through the windows unless you let them. Offer to bring log books etc
to their office at a later date.

They cannot delay you. If you have just landed, you need to get things put
away because you have an appointment to get to. If you are preparing to
launch in the glider, your next in line and their interrupting the all
important DI, an you are loosing the best part of the day.

BT

"Ed Byars" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> If I remember correctly (not too likely) the Manufacturer's Flight Manual
> says something like " this manual must be keep in aircraft". Also upon
> review I could find no specific Reg requiring aircraft log book to be in
> aircraft. It is however, the first thing the Feds will request.
> I know in power craft we never carry the paperwork/log briefcase in the
> airplane. We even kid with friends making them promise to burn all the
> records in case we crash.
> Since the glider has no recording tach or Hobbs it's been a habit of mine
> for decades to keep the log in the glider where I can keep it current
after
> each flight.
> I would like to check my op. limitations but they went with the glider.
> Incidentally I used a small font, reducing Xerox, and both sides to
condense
> the bulky multi page operating limitations to an almost illegible but a
neat
> card or two for the cockpit. Same for most other paperwork.
> It's interesting to speculate if the placards referring to cockpit weights
> will suffice for the W&B requirement.
> Also I've heard that we are required only to "show" the Paperwork, not
> surrender it. Is this just for the license on a ramp check or for all
> "paperwork"? I sure didn't have any choice when they removed everything
from
> my glider in my absence. I feel sure they were within their rights.
Weren't
> they?
> Remember the FAA motto: We're not happy until you're not happy. I'm
> kidding.........some of my best friends are with the FAA.
>
>
> "Michael McNulty" > wrote in message
> news:6vF9c.6663$GH3.1276@fed1read07...
> >
> > "Marc Ramsey" > wrote in message
> > . com...
> > > Michael McNulty wrote:
> > > > I am not aware that the flight manual is required to be in the
> aircraft.
> > I
> > > > believe that all of the information that I am required to have on
> board
> > is
> > > > contained on my placards (which are complete, including the weight
and
> > > > balance limits). The placards are what my operating limitations
> > address,
> > > > and as the aircraft is not certified, there is no such thing as an
> > "approved
> > > > flight manual".
> > >
> > > Check you operating limitations again. Every set I've had has
included
> > > a clause that requires carrying the manufacturers flight manual, along
> > > with the placards.
> > >
> > > Marc
> >
> > I just double checked.
> >
> > My operating limitations do say that I must have "the placards,
markings,
> > etc. required by 91.9" , but there is not any specific reference to the
> > flight manual. Since my aircraft is experimental, an "approved flight
> > manual" does not exist, and I fully believe that my placards meet the
> > requirements of 91.9 for "approved manual material, markings, and
placards
> > or any combination thereof". Again, the relevant document is the
> aircraft's
> > particular operating limitations. My operating limitations do require a
> > specific placard that states the weight and balance limits, Vne, and Va.
> > (My operating limitations were issued in October 2001, and I believe
that
> > they follow the FAA inspectors handbook guidelines very closely.)
> >
> > I suppose I could carry a copy of the manual, but I think I'm on pretty
> > solid ground without it.
> >
> >
>
>

[Mark James Boyd]

In article >,
ADP > wrote:
>Note that 14 CFR 91.9 (b) 1 and 2 only apply to airplanes and rotorcraft. A
>glider is neither.

I disagree. 91.9(b)(2) covers a US registered civil aircraft
for which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight manual is not
required...

This means my glider.

In this case (still quoted from 91.9(b)(2) ) there must
be "available in the aircraft a current approved Airplane
or Rotorcraft Flight Manual" (obviously not)

OR <-----this is a big OR. It comes from the parallel
sentence structure of the little "or" which is the
fourth from last word in the remaining verbiage.

"approved manual material, markings, and placards, or any combination
thereof."

From my reading, if it ain't an Airplane or Rotorcraft,
this last sentence describes what must be available in the aircraft.

Do the markings and placards give sufficient info to
replace carrying the "manual material?" I dunno...
Do I carry the manual material in all the gliders I personally fly?
Yes I do. But they are really tiny manuals, so
this presents no problems for me. Actually, it is nice
to sometimes be on the grid and browsing the "manual material."

>Also 14 CFR 21.5 only applies to airplanes or rotorcraft.

This may be true. I don't have a copy of the full 21.5.
Dunno...I looked it up once but for airplanes, so
I dunno...

>
>Only 14 CFR 91.9 (a) applies and, thus, it would appear that no flight
>manual is required to
>be carried in gliders unless the glider's Op Specs requires it to be
>carried.

Again I disagree. I think combinations of markings, placards, and
manual material are required by 91.9(b)(2).

>
>Allan
>
>
>"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
>news:406c7444$1@darkstar...
>> 91.9 and 21.5 of US CFR may be helpful.
>> I don't have a terribly clear idea how this applies
>> to experimentals, however, or even if 21.5 applies to
>> experimentals.
>>
>> For regular ol' aircraft, IIRC before some date
>> (maybe the '80s?) the POH (AFM?) was fine, then after that,
>> one needed a manual with a serial number on it.
>>
>> If anyone wants to illuminate us on the differences
>> between an AFM and a POH, you're smarter than me...
>>
>>
>


--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

[ADP]

"approved manual material, markings, and placards, or any combination
thereof."

It seems fairly clear that the above sentence means that manual or markings
or placards will work.
Obviously any combination could mean markings and placards and still meet
the requirements of the FAR.

When is the last time you saw a manual in a SGS 2-33?

Allan



"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
news:4071adc7$1@darkstar...
> In article >,
> ADP > wrote:
>>Note that 14 CFR 91.9 (b) 1 and 2 only apply to airplanes and rotorcraft.
>>A
>>glider is neither.
>
> I disagree. 91.9(b)(2) covers a US registered civil aircraft
> for which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight manual is not
> required...
>
> This means my glider.
>
> In this case (still quoted from 91.9(b)(2) ) there must
> be "available in the aircraft a current approved Airplane
> or Rotorcraft Flight Manual" (obviously not)
>
>......Snip.....