Reverse seeding (USA)

[Andy Durbin]

Will someone please explain why the subject of "reverse seeding" for
the Region 9 contest at Parowan keeps coming up. Regionals are
Regionals, and Regionals are for the contest pilots that live in the
region. Others are welcome to come if the contest is not filled.
Applicants from the contest region have priority based on seeding, not
reverse seeding. Applicants from outside the region also have
priority based on seeding, not reverse seeding.

Has it ever been any different?

Is this an issue for Parowan because someone outside the region chose
to organise a regional contest there?


Andy

[JJ Sinclair]

>Applicants from outside the region also have
>priority based on seeding, not reverse seeding.

Unfortunately that's not the case, Andy. Take a look at Parowan entry list at
>>>> http://parowan.soaringweb.net/Entry.html <<<< You will see a bunch of top
pilots that won't be flying the contest which is limited to 50, due to parking
space.

The *reverse seeding* rule is a well intended, but mis-guided attempt to get
new guys into the sport (racing), but is being done at the expense of guys like
me who have supported racing for 30 years as Manager, CD, Ops guy, Photo
guy,roap snagger, you name it.

No good dead goes un-punished,
JJ Sinclair

[Shawn Curry]

JJ Sinclair wrote:
>>Applicants from outside the region also have
>>priority based on seeding, not reverse seeding.
>
>
> Unfortunately that's not the case, Andy. Take a look at Parowan entry list at
>
>>>>>http://parowan.soaringweb.net/Entry.html <<<< You will see a bunch of top
>
> pilots that won't be flying the contest which is limited to 50, due to parking
> space.
>
> The *reverse seeding* rule is a well intended, but mis-guided attempt to get
> new guys into the sport (racing), but is being done at the expense of guys like
> me who have supported racing for 30 years as Manager, CD, Ops guy, Photo
> guy,roap snagger, you name it.
>
> No good dead goes un-punished,
> JJ Sinclair

Hmm, the only good dead I ever knew of died with Jerry Garcia.
:-)

Shawn

[mm]

"JJ Sinclair" > wrote in message
...
> >Applicants from outside the region also have
> >priority based on seeding, not reverse seeding.
>
> Unfortunately that's not the case, Andy. Take a look at Parowan entry list
at
> >>>> http://parowan.soaringweb.net/Entry.html <<<< You will see a bunch of
top
> pilots that won't be flying the contest which is limited to 50, due to
parking
> space.
>
> The *reverse seeding* rule is a well intended, but mis-guided attempt to
get
> new guys into the sport (racing), but is being done at the expense of guys
like
> me who have supported racing for 30 years as Manager, CD, Ops guy, Photo
> guy,roap snagger, you name it.
>
> No good dead goes un-punished,
> JJ Sinclair

You're giving a little less than the full story here. The reverse seeding
applies to "SPORTS CLASS" applicants. This means that a Sports pilot who
has never flown a contest has an equal standing overall as a Standard or 15M
applicant who is a Nationals winner (100 pts).

As it stands now, there are 7 Sports pilots from outside Region 9 who are
likely to get in based on the reverse seeding rule, and 5 highly ranked
Standard and 15M pilots who are likely to get in based on conventional
seeding.

To get in now you need to be from Region 9, or be a contest newbie and fly
Sports, or be ranked above about 92 pts and fly Std or 15M .

Have you considered getting an unseeded "ringer" to register for you? You
then fly "co-pilot" in your two seater and the "ringer" gets a great
learning experience. :)

mm

[Brian Case]

(Andy Durbin) wrote in message >...
> Will someone please explain why the subject of "reverse seeding" for
> the Region 9 contest at Parowan keeps coming up. Regionals are
> Regionals, and Regionals are for the contest pilots that live in the
> region. Others are welcome to come if the contest is not filled.
> Applicants from the contest region have priority based on seeding, not
> reverse seeding. Applicants from outside the region also have
> priority based on seeding, not reverse seeding.
>
> Has it ever been any different?
>
> Is this an issue for Parowan because someone outside the region chose
> to organise a regional contest there?
>
>
> Andy

As I understand it the reverse seeding only applys to Sports Class. If
I counted right I see 6 pilots that do not have seeding scores and
thus have a seeding score of 100 that gives them priority over pilots
with seed scores.

Of course the thinking is that sports class is the beginners class and
it really isn't fair to give highly seeded pilots spots that might
otherwise have been taken by new contest pilots.

It is unfortunate that the organisers set an overall limit of
contestents instead of limits on each class. If they had limited each
class the more highly seed pilots flying 15 meter or open would not
have been bumped by these pilots.

On the other hand these 6 new contest pilots might be among the pilots
that support soaring contests for the next 30 years.

Brian

[JJ Sinclair]

>
>Have you considered getting an unseeded "ringer" to register for you? You
>then fly "co-pilot" in your two seater and the "ringer" gets a great
>learning experience. :)
>
>mm

There are several ways to beat this *reverse seeding* thing;
1. Don't offer sports class (Minden)
2. Get a *ringer* to use as the named pilot.
3. KS is working on a *creative alternative* to region 9's monopolization of
entry positions.
JJ Sinclair

[Michael McNulty]

JJ Sinclair wrote:

>>
>>Have you considered getting an unseeded "ringer" to register for you? You
>>then fly "co-pilot" in your two seater and the "ringer" gets a great
>>learning experience. :)
>>
>>mm
>
> There are several ways to beat this *reverse seeding* thing;
> 1. Don't offer sports class (Minden)
> 2. Get a *ringer* to use as the named pilot.
> 3. KS is working on a *creative alternative* to region 9's monopolization
> of entry positions.
> JJ Sinclair

Are you saying that also object to Region 9 pilots having preference in a
Region 9 contest? It seems to me that that is the whole point of a
"regional" contest.

What about the "old guy's" monopolization of the Seniors contest? The
PW-5's monopolization of the World Class? ....

[Greg Arnold]

JJ Sinclair wrote:

>>Have you considered getting an unseeded "ringer" to register for you? You
>>then fly "co-pilot" in your two seater and the "ringer" gets a great
>>learning experience. :)
>>
>>mm
>
>
> There are several ways to beat this *reverse seeding* thing;
> 1. Don't offer sports class (Minden)
> 2. Get a *ringer* to use as the named pilot.
> 3. KS is working on a *creative alternative* to region 9's monopolization of
> entry positions.

Since it is a Region 9 contest, shouldn't Region 9 be entitled to
monopolize the entry positions?

> JJ Sinclair

[Gary Kemp]

(Brian Case) wrote in message >...
> (Andy Durbin) wrote in message >...
> > Will someone please explain why the subject of "reverse seeding" for
> > the Region 9 contest at Parowan keeps coming up. Regionals are
> > Regionals, and Regionals are for the contest pilots that live in the
> > region. Others are welcome to come if the contest is not filled.
> > Applicants from the contest region have priority based on seeding, not
> > reverse seeding. Applicants from outside the region also have
> > priority based on seeding, not reverse seeding.
> >
> > Has it ever been any different?
> >
> > Is this an issue for Parowan because someone outside the region chose
> > to organise a regional contest there?
> >
> >
> > Andy
>

Well, one of the problems for those of us flying gliders that don't
have a class is that if we want to fly a contest in Parowan we have to
fly Sports Class and the reverse seeding hammers you. If I owned 3
gliders and could fly any class it wouldn 't be a problem, however
since I fly a Nimbus 3 and have to do it in Sports class, recognizing
that the handicap would keep me from winning, I am currently 77th out
of 80 current entrants.

Gary
> As I understand it the reverse seeding only applys to Sports Class. If
> I counted right I see 6 pilots that do not have seeding scores and
> thus have a seeding score of 100 that gives them priority over pilots
> with seed scores.
>
> Of course the thinking is that sports class is the beginners class and
> it really isn't fair to give highly seeded pilots spots that might
> otherwise have been taken by new contest pilots.
>
> It is unfortunate that the organisers set an overall limit of
> contestents instead of limits on each class. If they had limited each
> class the more highly seed pilots flying 15 meter or open would not
> have been bumped by these pilots.
>
> On the other hand these 6 new contest pilots might be among the pilots
> that support soaring contests for the next 30 years.
>
> Brian

[John Cochrane]

Here's a creative solution to the seeding issue. There is no reason
that the region that organizes the contest has to be the region where
the contest is flown. Why not run the (say) "region 2 regionals" in
Parowan? As an analogy, UK pilots annually put on a "national
contest" in Spain.

Then the group of pilots who gets their act together to organize the
thing can get priority to fly it. Organizers are a much more scarce
commodity than airports.

The rules are decidedly vague. They say that priority goes to pilots
from "the region" but they do not define "the region." They don't say
you can do this, but they don't say you can't either.

John Cochrane

[Cliff Hilty]

Then Tonapah could have twelve regionals every year!)

At 15:18 31 March 2004, John Cochrane wrote:
>Here's a creative solution to the seeding issue. There
>is no reason
>that the region that organizes the contest has to be
>the region where
>the contest is flown. Why not run the (say) 'region
>2 regionals' in
>Parowan? As an analogy, UK pilots annually put on
>a 'national
>contest' in Spain.
>
>Then the group of pilots who gets their act together
>to organize the
>thing can get priority to fly it. Organizers are a
>much more scarce
>commodity than airports.
>
>The rules are decidedly vague. They say that priority
>goes to pilots
>from 'the region' but they do not define 'the region.'
>They don't say
>you can do this, but they don't say you can't either.
>
>John Cochrane
>

[JJ Sinclair]

Come on guys, the system is clearly broken. Why KS is putting it on and won't
be allowed to compete. Something needs to be done to rectify this intolerable
situation.
JJ Sinclair

[Greg Arnold]

Or just have the First Annual Parowan Soaring Contest -- no regional at all.

I think the real problem with Parowan is not seeding, but that the
contest turned out to be so popular. I wonder if the organizers wish,
in hindsight, they had split the classes between two separate contests
on adjoining weeks.


John Cochrane wrote:

> Here's a creative solution to the seeding issue. There is no reason
> that the region that organizes the contest has to be the region where
> the contest is flown. Why not run the (say) "region 2 regionals" in
> Parowan? As an analogy, UK pilots annually put on a "national
> contest" in Spain.
>
> Then the group of pilots who gets their act together to organize the
> thing can get priority to fly it. Organizers are a much more scarce
> commodity than airports.
>
> The rules are decidedly vague. They say that priority goes to pilots
> from "the region" but they do not define "the region." They don't say
> you can do this, but they don't say you can't either.
>
> John Cochrane

[mm]

"JJ Sinclair" > wrote in message
...
> Come on guys, the system is clearly broken. Why KS is putting it on and
won't
> be allowed to compete. Something needs to be done to rectify this
intolerable
> situation.
> JJ Sinclai

I think you're wrong again about KS. The SSA web shows his ranking as 100
pts, same as Gary Ittner. If he wants to fly Std or 15M, he would make the
cut right now, just like Gary Ittner has. (If he does this, though, John
Sinclair would be the man on the bubble who gets bumped.)

If the point you raise above, even if incorrectly so, were really a frequent
problem, and people think it is important for the contest organizer to be
able to fly in his contest, it would be a simple enough matter to give the
organizer preference.

Why haven't you bitched about the preference for foreign pilots? There are
four foreign pilots spoiling your desires in addition to the seven "reverse
seeded" Sports pilots?

[Stewart Kissel]

>I think the real problem with Parowan is not seeding,
>but that
the
>contest turned out to be so popular.

Gosh, I would think KS should be congratulated for
putting the effort into organizing this at such a great
venue. And double thanks for having so many newbies
getting exposed to racing.

There is another Region 9 contest at Hobbs for those
out-of-region types who are going to get bumped.

[Brian Case]

Good point, I didn't realize they were not doing an Open Class.
I guess with space for only 50 pilots they had to put some limits somewhere.
Hope to see you up at Region 8.

Brian

>
> Well, one of the problems for those of us flying gliders that don't
> have a class is that if we want to fly a contest in Parowan we have to
> fly Sports Class and the reverse seeding hammers you. If I owned 3
> gliders and could fly any class it wouldn 't be a problem, however
> since I fly a Nimbus 3 and have to do it in Sports class, recognizing
> that the handicap would keep me from winning, I am currently 77th out
> of 80 current entrants.
>