Where can I train in a PW-6? Seminole Lake's is down for maintenancefor a couple of months

[[email protected]]

Hi, all.

I have a PW-5 that I bought but have never flown. Since the PW-6 is the 2-place trainer for the PW-5, I was hoping to train in a PW-6 for and hour or so before attempting the PW-5.

I just spoke with Seminole Lake Gliderport (here in Florida) who said that their PW-6 is down for maintenance for a couple of months.

Unfortunately SSA's search engine(as far as I know) doesn't have a search filter to find out which gliderports have a PW-6 available for training.

Does anyone know if there is one in (or near) Florida? or how can I find out where are all the PW-6's available for training in the US?

Ben

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 6:56:36 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> Hi, all.
>
> I have a PW-5 that I bought but have never flown. Since the PW-6 is the 2-place trainer for the PW-5, I was hoping to train in a PW-6 for and hour or so before attempting the PW-5.
>
> I just spoke with Seminole Lake Gliderport (here in Florida) who said that their PW-6 is down for maintenance for a couple of months.
>
> Unfortunately SSA's search engine(as far as I know) doesn't have a search filter to find out which gliderports have a PW-6 available for training.
>
> Does anyone know if there is one in (or near) Florida? or how can I find out where are all the PW-6's available for training in the US?
>
> Ben

On Facebook, on 23 August, Chilhowee Soaring Association talks about their new PW-6 being picked up. Most glass two-seaters (or L-23) would provide the training you would need to fly a PW-5.

[Citrus Soaring]

Sugarbush has a PW6 in Vermont.

Chilhowee just took delivery of a brand new PW6 in Tennessee.

I have a lot of time in the PW6 at Seminole lake and it is a very nice flying sailplane. It's very similar to an ask-21 in handling. I have not flown a PW5 but have flown the 6 with people that have and they say they are almost identical.

Those 3 locations are the only ones I am aware of on the east coast.

Franklin Burbank

[JS[_5_]]

On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 4:38:35 AM UTC-7, Citrus Soaring wrote:
> Sugarbush has a PW6 in Vermont.
>
> Chilhowee just took delivery of a brand new PW6 in Tennessee.
>
> I have a lot of time in the PW6 at Seminole lake and it is a very nice flying sailplane. It's very similar to an ask-21 in handling. I have not flown a PW5 but have flown the 6 with people that have and they say they are almost identical.
>
> Those 3 locations are the only ones I am aware of on the east coast.
>
> Franklin Burbank

[JS[_5_]]

Or just train in an ASK21 closer to home.
We used to train in 2-33s for the 1-26. The PeeWee is no more different to an ASK21 than a 1-26 to a 2-33.
Jim

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Fri, 01 Sep 2017 03:56:33 -0700, charlesethridge wrote:

> Hi, all.
>
> I have a PW-5 that I bought but have never flown. Since the PW-6 is the
> 2-place trainer for the PW-5, I was hoping to train in a PW-6 for and
> hour or so before attempting the PW-5.
>
Its a while since I flew a PW-5, but that was directly after stepping out
of a Twin Astir and was not a problem. I have only aero-towed in one: I
have no idea about PW-5 behaviour on a winch or other ground launch.

The one issue I was warned about was PIO on aero-tow take-off: this can
be an issue because the PW-5 has a rather light wing loading and a
relatively short spacing between nose and main wheels. If you raise the
nose too far and too soon the PW-5 can pop off the ground quite suddenly
and over-correction can drop it back onto the ground equally suddenly,
which is where the short wheelbase is likely to provoke a PIO.

That said, it wasn't an issue because I'd been warned. I raised the nose
a small amount as soon as the elevator became effective, just as I would
with a G103, ASK-21, Puchacz or any other nose-wheel glider, and let it
run on its main wheel until it lifted off quite nicely as the speed built
up. Once off the ground and flying behind the tug during its ground run,
it was happy to sit there until the tug took off.

A practise run in any nose-wheel training glider would be a good idea if
you normally fly tail-wheel gliders.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[MNLou]

The PW-5 is one of the easiest flying and safest gliders out there.

It flies much easier and lighter than the ASK-21 or any other sailplane I've flown. I flew my PW-5 on my 7th solo flight during flight training with no issues (and loved it!)

I did not find take off to be an issue. The tow rope will lift the nose wheel off the runway slightly and off you go. I agree with Martin - don't be too anxious to start flying. The ship will do that for you at the correct speed.

The controls are really light and, after a while, you just think of rolling into a thermal and the glider just does it for you.

The only caution would be landing. If you land with more than 1/2 airbrakes, the ground might come up and meet you a little too fast.

Enjoy your new PeeWee!

Lou

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 5:56:36 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> Hi, all.
>
> I have a PW-5 that I bought but have never flown. Since the PW-6 is the 2-place trainer for the PW-5, I was hoping to train in a PW-6 for and hour or so before attempting the PW-5.
>
> Does anyone know if there is one in (or near) Florida? or how can I find out where are all the PW-6's available for training in the US?
>
> Ben

If Chilhowee doesn't have theirs up and going yet, you could probably enroll in a class at Mississippi State in Starkville, MS and fly the one their Soaring Club owns.

To see all the currently registered PW-6s in the US, you can look here:

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/AcftRef_Results.aspx?Mfrtxt=&Modeltxt=PW6&PageNo=1

Hope this helps!

Steve Leonard

[BobW]

Likely the closest thing I've flown to a PW-5 has been a G-103, but (IMO) the
advice given previously in this thread has been solidly good. Were the advice
excerpted immediately below universally applied to "3-wheeled gliders" (G-103,
ASK-21, PW-X, etc.) I'd bet Real Money on there being fewer "liftoff
pitch-related silliness" incidents than there've historically been...

> [Snip...]I raised the nose
> a small amount as soon as the elevator became effective, just as I would
> with a G103, ASK-21, Puchacz or any other nose-wheel glider, and let it
> run on its main wheel until it lifted off quite nicely as the speed built
> up.
Some instructors will likely argue semantics, but IMHO, one way of making an
end run around the (implied above) need to "raise the nose a small amount as
soon as the elevator becomes effective" is to begin the ground roll with full
aft stick and then *relax* back pressure as the nose wheel gradually comes off
the ground, halting the stick motion at some deck/fuselage angle rolling only
on the center wheel and hold that fore/aft position until the plane levitates
into the air on its own. In a G-103 at 5300' msl behind a 260hp Pawnee, the
acceleration rate is sufficiently gradual as to make the "stick relaxation
rate" a no-brainer. The advantage (in my mind) is there's no need to wonder if
you've sufficient airflow over the controls to be *able* to raise the nose
with a timed pitch input...

More good advice...
> A practise run in any nose-wheel training glider would be a good idea if
> you normally fly tail-wheel gliders.

Have fun with your PW-5!!!

Bob W.

P.S. My suggestion presumes a nose hook connection...

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[Nigel Pocock[_2_]]

>
>Have fun with your PW-5!!!
>
>Bob W.
>
>P.S. My suggestion presumes a nose hook connection...
>
>---
>This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
>http://www.avg.com
>

A word of caution. If you are using winch or autotow with the CofG
hook be aware they can accelerate to full climb in the blink of an eye
even with full forward stick if the initial acceleration is too fierce. I
discovered this the hard way and only regained any control at 100ft.

[6PK]

On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 3:56:36 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Hi, all.
>
> I have a PW-5 that I bought but have never flown. Since the PW-6 is the 2-place trainer for the PW-5, I was hoping to train in a PW-6 for and hour or so before attempting the PW-5.
>
> I just spoke with Seminole Lake Gliderport (here in Florida) who said that their PW-6 is down for maintenance for a couple of months.
>
> Unfortunately SSA's search engine(as far as I know) doesn't have a search filter to find out which gliderports have a PW-6 available for training.
>
> Does anyone know if there is one in (or near) Florida? or how can I find out where are all the PW-6's available for training in the US?
>
> Ben

Cypress Soaring in Southern California, although they are not using it for primary training. (They also have a PW5)
http://www.cypresssoaring.org/

[George Haeh]

The PW-5 is easy to fly. It was my first single seater after requalifying
in an L-23.

I was advised to trim a bit forward before launch so that any correction
would
be stick back. Works just fine.

Like the K-21 and G-103 the noise from the front will prompt you to gently
raise
the nose wheel at the proper time.

Check canopy eject handle has not been actuated. I was happily flying
around
for three hours up to 90 kt thinking the PW-5 was noisy. Raising the canopy

after landing, the whole thing came off and I had to put it on the ground.

As an owner you need to understand the canopy eject mechanism and how to
reinstall the canopy.

As before mentioned the PW-5 is very light on the controls. I suspect the
PW-6
will not be quite as nimble.

[Johnny Joyner]

On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 5:56:36 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> Hi, all.
>
> I have a PW-5 that I bought but have never flown. Since the PW-6 is the 2-place trainer for the PW-5, I was hoping to train in a PW-6 for and hour or so before attempting the PW-5.
>
> I just spoke with Seminole Lake Gliderport (here in Florida) who said that their PW-6 is down for maintenance for a couple of months.
>
> Unfortunately SSA's search engine(as far as I know) doesn't have a search filter to find out which gliderports have a PW-6 available for training.
>
> Does anyone know if there is one in (or near) Florida? or how can I find out where are all the PW-6's available for training in the US?
>
> Ben

PW-5 is VERY easy to fly even for a very low time pilot. It is easier to turn while taxiing on the main wheel. the nose wheel tends to make it want to go in a straight line. When landing, The nose wheel makes for a nice short roll out. The tail being off the ground makes it a very safe off field lander. If you can fly a 1-26 you can fly a PW-5

[Tom BravoMike]

My total time in PW-5 is 466 hrs, flown between 1995 and 2001. When I first bought it, I was a pretty low time pilot, well below 100 hours. I expected and asked our club's CFIs to fly it for me and share their remarks. They looked at me and said: It's your glider, you fly it first. I did. No problem whatsoever, rather an amazement how nice, light and easy it was. And that feeling continued throughout my ownership of it. The two instructors flew after me to have this model in their logbooks. Hmmm... OK, they trusted that I could handle it.

On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 9:06:58 AM UTC-5, MNLou wrote:
> The PW-5 is one of the easiest flying and safest gliders out there.
>
> It flies much easier and lighter than the ASK-21 or any other sailplane I've flown. I flew my PW-5 on my 7th solo flight during flight training with no issues (and loved it!)
>
> I did not find take off to be an issue. The tow rope will lift the nose wheel off the runway slightly and off you go. I agree with Martin - don't be too anxious to start flying. The ship will do that for you at the correct speed.
>
> The controls are really light and, after a while, you just think of rolling into a thermal and the glider just does it for you.
>
> The only caution would be landing. If you land with more than 1/2 airbrakes, the ground might come up and meet you a little too fast.
>
> Enjoy your new PeeWee!
>
> Lou

[Tom BravoMike]

BTW, what an irony that the PW-5 is getting so many nice reviews NOW, after over 20 years. In the late 1990's the returning refrain on r.a.s. was: "Does the PW-5 still suck?" Some of us remember it...

[[email protected]]

Thanks for all the great tips, everyone!

I may end up going to Chilhowee, since I have relatives I can stay with in Atlanta. However I don't see their new PW-6 on their website yet, so I'll call and see if/when it's available.

I also purchased the Bob Wander book "Transition to Single Seat Gliders", which I will read before attempting the PW-5.

"Baby step into the elevator-r-r-r-r!" - Bill Murray in "What About Bob" :-)

[[email protected]]

On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 6:56:36 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> Hi, all.
>
> I have a PW-5 that I bought but have never flown. Since the PW-6 is the 2-place trainer for the PW-5, I was hoping to train in a PW-6 for and hour or so before attempting the PW-5.
>
> I just spoke with Seminole Lake Gliderport (here in Florida) who said that their PW-6 is down for maintenance for a couple of months.
>
> Unfortunately SSA's search engine(as far as I know) doesn't have a search filter to find out which gliderports have a PW-6 available for training.
>
> Does anyone know if there is one in (or near) Florida? or how can I find out where are all the PW-6's available for training in the US?
>
> Ben

Why not just pack it up and head down to Vero Beach his weekend and fly with the Members here at Treasure Coast Soaring Club. We can give you all the help that you need and we are having a great cookout as well. My old friend, Scott Bingham, from The Thermal Research days will be joining us and I will even pay for your first tow. We will also be having a cookout complete with our thermal dogs, a gourmet hot dog with mustard and onions. Hope to see you there. Bob

[6PK]

On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 3:02:41 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 6:56:36 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > Hi, all.
> >
> > I have a PW-5 that I bought but have never flown. Since the PW-6 is the 2-place trainer for the PW-5, I was hoping to train in a PW-6 for and hour or so before attempting the PW-5.
> >
> > I just spoke with Seminole Lake Gliderport (here in Florida) who said that their PW-6 is down for maintenance for a couple of months.
> >
> > Unfortunately SSA's search engine(as far as I know) doesn't have a search filter to find out which gliderports have a PW-6 available for training.
> >
> > Does anyone know if there is one in (or near) Florida? or how can I find out where are all the PW-6's available for training in the US?
> >
> > Ben
>
> Why not just pack it up and head down to Vero Beach his weekend and fly with the Members here at Treasure Coast Soaring Club. We can give you all the help that you need and we are having a great cookout as well. My old friend, Scott Bingham, from The Thermal Research days will be joining us and I will even pay for your first tow. We will also be having a cookout complete with our thermal dogs, a gourmet hot dog with mustard and onions. Hope to see you there. Bob

The PW5 flies nothing like the PW6... not even close.
Being checked out in the PW6 would not qualify you flying the PW5 .
Neither is too difficult but WAY DIFFERENT....

[Rich Owen[_2_]]

Our PW-6 has a new canopy on order after a renter didn't completely lock the rear canopy. It will be up soon as it comes in. Shouldn't take long.

Rich Owen

[BobW]

> BTW, what an irony that the PW-5 is getting so many nice reviews NOW, after
> over 20 years. In the late 1990's the returning refrain on r.a.s. was:
> "Does the PW-5 still suck?" Some of us remember it...

Heh (he chuckles, while contributing to thread drift)...temporary - if
years'-long-lasting - insanity? Short-sighted, too, when considered from the
group health aspect of the sport. Waiting with bated breath to see how much of
it's still around...

:-)
Bob W.

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[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sat, 02 Sep 2017 07:01:38 -0600, BobW wrote:

>> BTW, what an irony that the PW-5 is getting so many nice reviews NOW,
>> after over 20 years. In the late 1990's the returning refrain on r.a.s.
>> was: "Does the PW-5 still suck?" Some of us remember it...
>
> Heh (he chuckles, while contributing to thread drift)...temporary - if
> years'-long-lasting - insanity? Short-sighted, too, when considered from
> the group health aspect of the sport. Waiting with bated breath to see
> how much of it's still around...
>
An entirely personal view, based on initial impressions:

I had my first flights in both a PW-5 and a Std Libelle on the same day
at the same club (not my home one).

Neither flight was really good for getting a rounded opinion of the
gliders because there was almost no lift, so both were sled rides after a
tow. I thought the PW-5 was nice handling, though I could relate to my
club's boss CFI's comment that it flew a bit like a paper bag. The
Libelle obviously had better performance but both seemed easy enough to
fly. I was in the market for my first glider at the time, so was flying
everything I could get into.

As a result of that day, the Libelle went onto my 'wants' list but the
PW-5 did not, though I was pleased to have flown it. Besides, the PW-5
isn't nearly as pretty as a Libelle.

On reflection and on looking at UK prices, the PW-5 was always a bit
expensive for what it was. It has very similar performance to a Ka-6e but
for a lot more cash, both then and now, and is not as rugged as an SZD
Junior, which has slightly performance. However, I think it is a good
enough glider to act as an alternative to a Junior or an ASK-23 in the
British/European club environment, where these, along with a G102, are
often used as a new pilot's initial single seater and will often be flown
by them up to silver C standard.

I think you'll find that the competition pilots were the PW-5's main
detractors and who can really blame them: stepping out of a contemporary
Standard Class toy to go racing in a much slower machine with a glide
ratio of 32 and no water would be a bit of a shock.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[[email protected]]

On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 5:56:36 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> Hi, all.
>
> I have a PW-5 that I bought but have never flown. Since the PW-6 is the 2-place trainer for the PW-5, I was hoping to train in a PW-6 for and hour or so before attempting the PW-5.
>
> I just spoke with Seminole Lake Gliderport (here in Florida) who said that their PW-6 is down for maintenance for a couple of months.
>
> Unfortunately SSA's search engine(as far as I know) doesn't have a search filter to find out which gliderports have a PW-6 available for training.
>
> Does anyone know if there is one in (or near) Florida? or how can I find out where are all the PW-6's available for training in the US?
>
> Ben

Hi Ben, Bob Wander here. Congrats on your PW5 - fun glider. I have a B-1 PW5 and have written up a few notes for pilot friends who have flown it. Send me a private email and I will be happy to send the notes along to you via email. My email address is in the Single Seat glider book that you (!) have already bought.
Safe soaring,
Bob Wander
-End

[[email protected]]

> The PW5 flies nothing like the PW6... not even close.
> Being checked out in the PW6 would not qualify you flying the PW5 .
> Neither is too difficult but WAY DIFFERENT....

Interesting. I had read that the PW6 was designed to be the 2-place trainer for the PW5. Not so?

[[email protected]]

> Why not just pack it up and head down to Vero Beach his weekend and fly with >the Members here at Treasure Coast Soaring Club. We can give you all the help >that you need and we are having a great cookout as well. My old friend, Scott >Bingham, from The Thermal Research days will be joining us and I will even pay >for your first tow. We will also be having a cookout complete with our thermal >dogs, a gourmet hot dog with mustard and onions. Hope to see you there. Bob

Thanks for the kind offer, Bob, but (a) I don't have a car that will tow the trailer yet and (b) my fam is here this weekend.

[6PK]

On Sunday, September 3, 2017 at 4:55:47 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > The PW5 flies nothing like the PW6... not even close.
> > Being checked out in the PW6 would not qualify you flying the PW5 .
> > Neither is too difficult but WAY DIFFERENT....
>
> Interesting. I had read that the PW6 was designed to be the 2-place trainer for the PW5. Not so?
Not so...not even close in handling...Both are nice gliders, the PW6 handles closer to the ASK21 ( nothing like a G103 as it was also suggested prior) in terms of aileron/elevator response but has a heavy rather ineffective rudder- almost impossible to slip, other than that no bad habits ( terribly ineffective wheel brakes through ).
On the other hand the PW5 is a very snappy, quick to respond little glider.
Someone mentioned in this thread a comparison to the Standard Libelle, (I owned one of those too); yes it is closer maybe a little "twitchier" yet but overall a delight to fly.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 10:31:47 PM UTC+3, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> BTW, what an irony that the PW-5 is getting so many nice reviews NOW, after over 20 years. In the late 1990's the returning refrain on r.a.s. was: "Does the PW-5 still suck?" Some of us remember it...

Let the record show that I've been one of the few people saying nice things about the PW5 in this forum, right from when my club got two of them in the mid 90s.

The PW5 has always been an excellent glass replacement for the much loved (of old) K6. Easy to fly, and plenty good enough to do a 300+ km flight in on a nice day.

People have generally run down the PW5 on one of two grounds:

1) it's allegedly ugly. Definitely it looks a little different to most modern gliders. That's one advantage of the AC4 Russia -- it looks "normal".

2) why buy a 32:1 new glider for the same price you can buy a 30 year old 40+:1 glider? A fair enough question in a declining sport/market. If the sport was growing (as the World Class project hoped to achieve) then the supply of 30 year old gliders would be insufficient.

For a number of years I was one of the few in our club who was happy to fly both the PW5 and the Janus, depending on what the aim of the flight was. Vastly different performance, and vastly different ease of landing in a paddock. Also vastly different ease of flying, with the PW5 being one of the easiest, while many who tried it and embarrassed themselves described the Janus handling as evil (especially the PIOs after takeoff, but control harmony and slow in general).

[Paul T[_4_]]

World Class was a far better idea than the stupidity that is the 13.5m
class
- now turning into another class for the 'rich boys'.

[Andreas Maurer]

On Mon, 04 Sep 2017 18:50:03 +0000, Paul T >
wrote:

> World Class was a far better idea than the stupidity that is the 13.5m
>class

.... and it failed completely, as predicted by many.
Obviously one of the worst ideas ever in gliding history.

>- now turning into another class for the 'rich boys'.
.... but with many nice features (affordable self-launch, godd
performance). People in my club are talking about buying 13.5m class
gliders.

[Tony[_5_]]

*checks pockets & bank account*

Nope

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 21:09 06 September 2017, Andreas Maurer wrote:
>On Mon, 04 Sep 2017 18:50:03 +0000, Paul T
>wrote:
>
>> World Class was a far better idea than the stupidity that is the 13.5m
>>class
>
>.... and it failed completely, as predicted by many.
>Obviously one of the worst ideas ever in gliding history.
>
>>- now turning into another class for the 'rich boys'.
>.... but with many nice features (affordable self-launch, godd
>performance). People in my club are talking about buying 13.5m class
>gliders.
>
>
>

REALLY???? and what are the numbers in 13.5m class? - lower than any
World Class event? The idea to have a relatively affordable ship that could

be used as a first solo ship in clubs, then to compete with on a level
playing
field at an international level was a far better idea than another racing
class
for the rich boys. Trouble is this sport at national and intentional level
is
dominated by spoilt rich boys who turn up their noses at anything less than

40:1.

[Tango Whisky]

If a brilliant idea doesn't work out, maybe it wasn't thÃ*t brilliant?

[Bruce Hoult]

On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 7:39:28 AM UTC+3, Tango Whisky wrote:
> If a brilliant idea doesn't work out, maybe it wasn't thÃ*t brilliant?

Or maybe the market timing was wrong, or maybe the execution wasn't good enough, or maybe the choice of winner was bad, or maybe the technology wasn't quite there in 1989-1993 to meet all the goals without too much compromise..

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 09:18 07 September 2017, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 7:39:28 AM UTC+3, Tango Whisky
wrote:
>> If a brilliant idea doesn't work out, maybe it wasn't th=C3=A0t
>brilliant=
>?
>
>Or maybe the market timing was wrong, or maybe the execution wasn't
good
>en=
>ough, or maybe the choice of winner was bad, or maybe the technology
>wasn't=
> quite there in 1989-1993 to meet all the goals without too much
>compromise=
>..
>

or maybe it wasn't supported by several prominent national
aeroclubs/national gliding organisations which primarily have leadership
dominated by wealthy individuals with expensive toys that tend to over
focus resources on their bit of the playing field and not on others.

[Tango Whisky]

Le jeudi 7 septembre 2017 13:30:07 UTC+2, Paul T a écritÂ*:
> or maybe it wasn't supported by several prominent national
> aeroclubs/national gliding organisations which primarily have leadership
> dominated by wealthy individuals with expensive toys that tend to over
> focus resources on their bit of the playing field and not on others.

Nonsense. In the price range of the PW5, and below, there has always been the Club class (or Sports class) which is extremely popular in Europe.

The PW5 story stalled because there was just no incentive to buy a brand new, very ugly glider when you can have more performance for less money by buying a nice looking Cirrus.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 5:27:18 PM UTC+3, Tango Whisky wrote:
> Le jeudi 7 septembre 2017 13:30:07 UTC+2, Paul T a écritÂ*:
> > or maybe it wasn't supported by several prominent national
> > aeroclubs/national gliding organisations which primarily have leadership
> > dominated by wealthy individuals with expensive toys that tend to over
> > focus resources on their bit of the playing field and not on others.
>
> Nonsense. In the price range of the PW5, and below, there has always been the Club class (or Sports class) which is extremely popular in Europe.
>
> The PW5 story stalled because there was just no incentive to buy a brand new, very ugly glider when you can have more performance for less money by buying a nice looking Cirrus.

That's only possible in a declining sport.

Which, I assume, we don't want even though we seem to have it.

How would you reverse it?

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 14:27 07 September 2017, Tango Whisky wrote:
>Le jeudi 7 septembre 2017 13:30:07 UTC+2, Paul T a
=C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
>> or maybe it wasn't supported by several prominent national=20
>> aeroclubs/national gliding organisations which primarily have
leadership=
>=20
>> dominated by wealthy individuals with expensive toys that tend to
over=20
>> focus resources on their bit of the playing field and not on others.
>
>Nonsense. In the price range of the PW5, and below, there has always
been
>t=
>he Club class (or Sports class) which is extremely popular in Europe.
>
>The PW5 story stalled because there was just no incentive to buy a brand
>ne=
>w, very ugly glider when you can have more performance for less money
by
>bu=
>ying a nice looking Cirrus.
>

NO there hasn't always been the Club Class - that didn't evolve until the
90's - and that took awhile to get established for the same reasons. You
think a Std. Cirrus is nice looking? Looks like a humped back whale to me -

always thought it was the ugliest of the first generation Std. Class ships.

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 14:27 07 September 2017, Tango Whisky wrote:
>Le jeudi 7 septembre 2017 13:30:07 UTC+2, Paul T a
=C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
>> or maybe it wasn't supported by several prominent national=20
>> aeroclubs/national gliding organisations which primarily have
leadership=
>=20
>> dominated by wealthy individuals with expensive toys that tend to
over=20
>> focus resources on their bit of the playing field and not on others.
>
>Nonsense. In the price range of the PW5, and below, there has always
been
>t=
>he Club class (or Sports class) which is extremely popular in Europe.
>
>The PW5 story stalled because there was just no incentive to buy a
brand
>ne=
>w, very ugly glider when you can have more performance for less
money by
>bu=
>ying a nice looking Cirrus.
>

So now we have 6 classes for the 'rich boys' and 1 class for the
'poorer/average income guys' and a sport that is in serious decline. As
stated the PW5 was meant to be a first solo club ship that could be used
in competition - just like a modern 1-26. Some aeroclubs/national
organisations got on board with this, some did not - and there was
certainly a lot of 'snobbery' re the PW5.

[Paul T[_4_]]

Entry point club class $20-25k
Entry point Std class $60k+
Entry point 15m class $ 80k+
Entry point 18m class $ 150k+
Entry point 20m class $150 k+
Entry point Open class $ 200k+

Entry point for ex World Class $20-25k. Entry point for 13.5m Class $100k+

and we wonder why the sport is in decline?

[kirk.stant]

On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 1:30:05 PM UTC-5, Paul T wrote:
> Entry point club class $20-25k
> Entry point Std class $60k+
> Entry point 15m class $ 80k+
> Entry point 18m class $ 150k+
> Entry point 20m class $150 k+
> Entry point Open class $ 200k+
>
> Entry point for ex World Class $20-25k. Entry point for 13.5m Class $100k+
>
> and we wonder why the sport is in decline?

If anyone wants a nice entry-level 15m glider I'll happily sell my LS6-b for $79,999. Proven contest racer able to keep up with -27s on a good day (especially in weaker eastern conditions) with a good stick actuator.

66

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Just to point out, there are three ASW-27's on WW for about the same price, see thread on "falling ASW-27 prices". One having been re-finished in PU.

On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 2:36:11 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 1:30:05 PM UTC-5, Paul T wrote:
> > Entry point club class $20-25k
> > Entry point Std class $60k+
> > Entry point 15m class $ 80k+
> > Entry point 18m class $ 150k+
> > Entry point 20m class $150 k+
> > Entry point Open class $ 200k+
> >
> > Entry point for ex World Class $20-25k. Entry point for 13.5m Class $100k+
> >
> > and we wonder why the sport is in decline?
>
> If anyone wants a nice entry-level 15m glider I'll happily sell my LS6-b for $79,999. Proven contest racer able to keep up with -27s on a good day (especially in weaker eastern conditions) with a good stick actuator.
>
> 66

[[email protected]]

Just to point out... the OP was looking for training in a pw6. While it's already been stated, there's a brand new one in Chilhowee TN and you'd get to fly with one of the best in the world... That's where I'd go!

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 21:35 07 September 2017, kirk.stant wrote:
>On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 1:30:05 PM UTC-5, Paul T wrote:
>> Entry point club class $20-25k
>> Entry point Std class $60k+
>> Entry point 15m class $ 80k+
>> Entry point 18m class $ 150k+
>> Entry point 20m class $150 k+
>> Entry point Open class $ 200k+
>>
>> Entry point for ex World Class $20-25k. Entry point for 13.5m Class
>$100k+
>>
>> and we wonder why the sport is in decline?
>
>If anyone wants a nice entry-level 15m glider I'll happily sell my LS6-b
>for $79,999. Proven contest racer able to keep up with -27s on a good
day
>(especially in weaker eastern conditions) with a good stick actuator.
>
>66
>

I'll give you 80k when an LS6B wins a 15m class Worlds again. :-)

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 9:15:06 AM UTC-5, Paul T wrote:
>
> I'll give you 80k when an LS6B wins a 15m class Worlds again. :-)

Will you give $80K for an LS6A that won the 15M Worlds?

[kirk.stant]

On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 9:15:06 AM UTC-5, Paul T wrote:

> I'll give you 80k when an LS6B wins a 15m class Worlds again. :-)

How about one that won a Regional not too long ago? ;^)

66

[Dan Marotta]

On 9/8/2017 9:33 AM, Steve Leonard wrote:
> On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 9:15:06 AM UTC-5, Paul T wrote:
>> I'll give you 80k when an LS6B wins a 15m class Worlds again. :-)
> Will you give $80K for an LS6A that won the 15M Worlds?
>
You should!Â* I flew it for 650 wonderful hours.Â* Great ship!
--
Dan, 5J

[Andreas Maurer]

On Thu, 07 Sep 2017 02:38:37 +0000, Paul T >
wrote:


>REALLY???? and what are the numbers in 13.5m class? - lower than any
>World Class event? The idea to have a relatively affordable ship that could
>
>be used as a first solo ship in clubs, then to compete with on a level
>playing
>field at an international level was a far better idea than another racing
>class
>for the rich boys.

The point ios still valid: For the price of a PW-5 you get an older
Standard Class glider (perfectly suited for Club Class cometitions
today) with vastly superior performance. Recent history has proven
that glider pilots are not willing to fly something with the
performance of 60 years ago.


> Trouble is this sport at national and intentional level
>is
>dominated by spoilt rich boys who turn up their noses at anything less than
>
>40:1.


I don't know about your club, but the 15-year-old student pilots in my
club fly DG-300 and ASW-24. The 38:1 Mistral-C is being regarded as
too-badd-performance, not to mention the first solo glider, the Ka-8.

If they want to compete, they fly Club Class or Standard Class.

In case you didn't get it: There are more and more people who are
willing to buy a self-launcher - and these light 13.5m toys perfectly
fit into this market niche.

[Andreas Maurer]

On Thu, 7 Sep 2017 08:07:19 -0700 (PDT), Bruce Hoult
> wrote:


>> The PW5 story stalled because there was just no incentive to buy a brand new, very ugly glider when you can have more performance for less money by buying a nice looking Cirrus.
>
>That's only possible in a declining sport.


Even in a growong sport people are not willing to invest serious money
into something that is a 50-years step backwards. ;)

[Andreas Maurer]

On Thu, 07 Sep 2017 17:17:26 +0000, Paul T >
wrote:


>NO there hasn't always been the Club Class - that didn't evolve until the
>90's - and that took awhile to get established for the same reasons. You
>think a Std. Cirrus is nice looking? Looks like a humped back whale to me -
>
>always thought it was the ugliest of the first generation Std. Class ships.


My club organized a the German Club Class Championchips in 1986, and
even then it was anything but new. In 1990 it was around at least 15
years in Europe, and it was a huge success right from the start.

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 20:40 09 September 2017, Andreas Maurer wrote:
>On Thu, 07 Sep 2017 17:17:26 +0000, Paul T
>wrote:
>
>
>>NO there hasn't always been the Club Class - that didn't evolve until
the
>>90's - and that took awhile to get established for the same reasons.
You
>>think a Std. Cirrus is nice looking? Looks like a humped back whale to
me
>-
>>
>>always thought it was the ugliest of the first generation Std. Class
>ships.
>
>
>My club organized a the German Club Class Championchips in 1986,
and
>even then it was anything but new. In 1990 it was around at least 15
>years in Europe, and it was a huge success right from the start.
>
>
>

Yes but Germany is not the world and I would say for the majority of
national aeroclubs Club Class did not get fully established until the
1990's and indeed the first 'World Championship' was 2001 , after the
World Class whose first championship was in 1997. Indeed I can
remember there was some 'sloth'/resistance to the implementation of
Club Class in the UK, and the USA is still trying to get its act together
on
this class. Indeed their is still some 'snobbery' around, that views Club

Class as a training class to move up to the 'real' FAI classes.

This still does not take away from the fact that we now have 6 FAI
classes for fairly wealthy individuals, and 1 class for the normal income
guys- 'Club Class' - and a rapidly declining number of pilots. The 13.5 m
class with an entry point to buy a competitive ship at least equal to
15m class does not in my opinion help the situation. Over reliance on
only fairly wealthy individuals being able to be competitive at national
and international level is not going to grow the sport.

You are lucky that you fly in Germany where there is fairly easy access
to competitive club ships - for example in the UK there are no civilian
clubs with access to even a competitive standard class ship i.e. Discus
2/LS8, and very few, maybe 2-3 clubs in the USA and Canada. Maybe a
few more clubs with access to a Duo Discus/DG1001 which I suppose
you could use in 20M class.

[Tango Whisky]

Well, its basically the same in Germany, France, Italy, Austria and Switzerland (which together account for a huge part of world wide soaring population): You don't need to buy a ship for competition, you just take a club ship. In our club, we have 2x ASK21, 2x DuoDiscus, 2x LS4, 2x LS18-18.

But in the end, 90% of soaring pilots don't care about competitions, so the idea that competition classes have an influence on population is rather crude...

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 5:00:36 AM UTC-4, Paul T wrote:
> At 20:40 09 September 2017, Andreas Maurer wrote:
> >On Thu, 07 Sep 2017 17:17:26 +0000, Paul T
> >wrote:
> >
> >
> >>NO there hasn't always been the Club Class - that didn't evolve until
> the
> >>90's - and that took awhile to get established for the same reasons.
> You
> >>think a Std. Cirrus is nice looking? Looks like a humped back whale to
> me
> >-
> >>
> >>always thought it was the ugliest of the first generation Std. Class
> >ships.
> >
> >
> >My club organized a the German Club Class Championchips in 1986,
> and
> >even then it was anything but new. In 1990 it was around at least 15
> >years in Europe, and it was a huge success right from the start.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Yes but Germany is not the world and I would say for the majority of
> national aeroclubs Club Class did not get fully established until the
> 1990's and indeed the first 'World Championship' was 2001 , after the
> World Class whose first championship was in 1997. Indeed I can
> remember there was some 'sloth'/resistance to the implementation of
> Club Class in the UK, and the USA is still trying to get its act together
> on
> this class. Indeed their is still some 'snobbery' around, that views Club
>
> Class as a training class to move up to the 'real' FAI classes.
>
> This still does not take away from the fact that we now have 6 FAI
> classes for fairly wealthy individuals, and 1 class for the normal income
> guys- 'Club Class' - and a rapidly declining number of pilots. The 13.5 m
> class with an entry point to buy a competitive ship at least equal to
> 15m class does not in my opinion help the situation. Over reliance on
> only fairly wealthy individuals being able to be competitive at national
> and international level is not going to grow the sport.
>
> You are lucky that you fly in Germany where there is fairly easy access
> to competitive club ships - for example in the UK there are no civilian
> clubs with access to even a competitive standard class ship i.e. Discus
> 2/LS8, and very few, maybe 2-3 clubs in the USA and Canada. Maybe a
> few more clubs with access to a Duo Discus/DG1001 which I suppose
> you could use in 20M class.

I'll speak for the US. I don't know what your definition is of the "regular individual" that you seem to think is blocked out. In the US, we have Club, Sports, and Standard classes that all can be flown competitively without having to have the latest glider. Standard in the US is a limited handicap class that allows LS-4, ASW-24, Discus, DG300, etc. to be competitive. If you have one of those gliders, you have 3 national classes you can fly every year.
The World Class died in the US as a competition class because the owners of those gliders(PW-5s) are mostly not competition pilots. They bought the PW-5 because it was sort of a "modern 1-26". Easy to fly. light to rig, not too expensive. They didn't but them to compete.
The reality is that the biggest barrier to competing is not the gliders, but the time and money to go to competitions. Over and over in our polls, time is the biggest issue. Gliders never seem to come up.
FWIW
UH

[[email protected]]

Dear Ben. Sarah Arnold at Chilhowie gliderport in Benton Tennessee just purchased a PW6. Give her a call. I'm sure she will be happy to get you trained up. Best of luck.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 6:56:36 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> Hi, all.
>
> I have a PW-5 that I bought but have never flown. Since the PW-6 is the 2-place trainer for the PW-5, I was hoping to train in a PW-6 for and hour or so before attempting the PW-5.
>
> I just spoke with Seminole Lake Gliderport (here in Florida) who said that their PW-6 is down for maintenance for a couple of months.
>
> Unfortunately SSA's search engine(as far as I know) doesn't have a search filter to find out which gliderports have a PW-6 available for training.
>
> Does anyone know if there is one in (or near) Florida? or how can I find out where are all the PW-6's available for training in the US?
>
> Ben

[[email protected]]

The Tidewater Soaring Society, SE VA has a PW-6. There are only 6-7 in the US. Most of the club pages linked to the SSA have a listing of club ships once you open the club's webpage. I transitioned to the PW5 years ago straight from a 1-26 without any problems, just don't get slow on the flare and land tail low.

[son_of_flubber]

Sugarbush Soaring will have two very nice PW-6, one ASK-21, and (hopefully) one SGS 2-33 next season.

For single seat rentals: one pristine SGS 1-26E restored last year by K&L, and one old but nice Grob G102.

www.sugarbush.org

[[email protected]]

Come to Sugarbush Soaring. We have two.

[[email protected]]

If you're still looking, Seminole Lake's is back flying.