EASA AD on FES battery systems

[JS[_5_]]

Saw the document on [Aus-Soaring] thanks to John Welsh.
Link to UK site below.
Jim

http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20170906EASAAD20170167E.pdf

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 11:14:40 AM UTC-5, JS wrote:
> Saw the document on [Aus-Soaring] thanks to John Welsh.
> Link to UK site below.
> Jim
>
> http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20170906EASAAD20170167E.pdf

Hmm... I wonder what an approved modification to the battery pack or its installation consists of?

[JS[_5_]]

On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 11:37:53 AM UTC-7, Steve Leonard wrote:
> On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 11:14:40 AM UTC-5, JS wrote:
> > Saw the document on [Aus-Soaring] thanks to John Welsh.
> > Link to UK site below.
> > Jim
> >
> > http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20170906EASAAD20170167E.pdf
>
> Hmm... I wonder what an approved modification to the battery pack or its installation consists of?

Wondered that too, as the only option listed is to remove the batteries.
Further down the AD are links to manufacturers websites which will hopefully have details.
Jim

[2KA]

I'm guessing that there is no approved modification yet, and that they wrote the AD that they wrote the AD that way so they won't have to reissue it when the approve one. Perhaps the only way to comply for now is to remove the battery?

[Dave Nadler]

On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 12:14:40 PM UTC-4, JS wrote:
> Saw the document on [Aus-Soaring] thanks to John Welsh.
> Link to UK site below.
> Jim
>
> http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20170906EASAAD20170167E.pdf

Ow Owww OOooowwww...
I hate it when my glider catches fire.
Hasn't happened for a while, last time was in 2008, but it was only a small fire..

Anybody have any more *facts* about the event that inspired this AD?

[[email protected]]

nteresting they don't mention the Silent 2 FES, the Mini LAK or the Ventus 3 FES.

BTW I ordered a D2C FES a year ago with delivery in Nov 18. Little bit jittery. Wonder if I can install pedals

Chris

[krasw]

lauantai 9. syyskuuta 2017 21.03.15 UTC+3 kirjoitti:
> nteresting they don't mention the Silent 2 FES, the Mini LAK or the Ventus 3 FES.
>
> Chris

They are not EASA certified at the moment?

[Duster[_2_]]

PM sent
> Anybody have any more *facts* about the event that inspired this AD?

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 11:37:53 AM UTC-7, Steve Leonard wrote:
> On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 11:14:40 AM UTC-5, JS wrote:
> > Saw the document on [Aus-Soaring] thanks to John Welsh.
> > Link to UK site below.
> > Jim
> >
> > http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20170906EASAAD20170167E.pdf
>
> Hmm... I wonder what an approved modification to the battery pack or its installation consists of?

What battery chemistry are they using? LiPos?

9B

[Renny[_2_]]

On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 7:00:44 PM UTC-6, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 11:37:53 AM UTC-7, Steve Leonard wrote:
> > On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 11:14:40 AM UTC-5, JS wrote:
> > > Saw the document on [Aus-Soaring] thanks to John Welsh.
> > > Link to UK site below.
> > > Jim
> > >
> > > http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20170906EASAAD20170167E.pdf
> >
> > Hmm... I wonder what an approved modification to the battery pack or its installation consists of?
>
> What battery chemistry are they using? LiPos?
>
> 9B

Andy - You are correct!

[Graham Smith]

from https://members.gliding.co.uk/wp-
content/uploads/sites/3/2017/09/BGA-Newsletter-September-17.pdf

Airworthiness
FES Battery Fires. On 10th August, a FES-equipped sailplane
experienced a severe fire in the forward FES battery after landing
normally at Southdown Gliding Club. The pilot was uninjured and the
fire was extinguished, although the battery compartment and
surrounding structure were damaged by the fire. This event is the
subject of an AAIB Field Investigation and no findings of cause have
yet been established. The AAIB is aware of a second FES battery fire
that occurred on a different FES-equipped sailplane in May 2017, and
is working with the sailplane manufacturer and LZ Design, the
manufacturer of the FES system, to determine the cause of both
battery fires. Whilst the facts have yet to be determined, it is possible
that there could be internal fault within battery cells that could cause
an electrical short between cells and thereby a spontaneous
combustion which battery temperature monitoring will not warn of.
Part of the AAIB work programme involves CT-scanning battery packs
to identify any foreign objects. The potential lack of fire warning is
also being carefully considered.
If you have any questions about operating and maintaining a FES
installation and associated battery, please contact the glider agent in
the first instance.

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Tuesday, September 12, 2017 at 7:30:07 AM UTC-4, Graham Smith wrote:
> from https://members.gliding.co.uk/wp-
> content/uploads/sites/3/2017/09/BGA-Newsletter-September-17.pdf
>
> Airworthiness
> FES Battery Fires. On 10th August, a FES-equipped sailplane
> experienced a severe fire in the forward FES battery after landing
> normally at Southdown Gliding Club. The pilot was uninjured and the
> fire was extinguished, although the battery compartment and
> surrounding structure were damaged by the fire. This event is the
> subject of an AAIB Field Investigation and no findings of cause have
> yet been established. The AAIB is aware of a second FES battery fire
> that occurred on a different FES-equipped sailplane in May 2017, and
> is working with the sailplane manufacturer and LZ Design, the
> manufacturer of the FES system, to determine the cause of both
> battery fires. Whilst the facts have yet to be determined, it is possible
> that there could be internal fault within battery cells that could cause
> an electrical short between cells and thereby a spontaneous
> combustion which battery temperature monitoring will not warn of.
> Part of the AAIB work programme involves CT-scanning battery packs
> to identify any foreign objects. The potential lack of fire warning is
> also being carefully considered.
> If you have any questions about operating and maintaining a FES
> installation and associated battery, please contact the glider agent in
> the first instance.

This is from the LZ Design webpage news section ( http://www.front-electric-sustainer.com/news.php ) :
"September 2017
On Sept 6th 2017, the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) issued Airworthiness Directive (AD) number 2017-0167-E. The AD identifies the occurrence of fires in the FES battery packs produced by LZ Design. It is unknown whether the fires are a result of battery internal issues, the specific installations in the affected aircraft, or external conditions such as mishandling.. LZ Design is collaborating with the EASA and also the AAIB from UK with the intent to issue battery inspection procedures and, if necessary, modification instructions."

[Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas]

Photo of the glider on fire in the UK found here:
http://www.wscountytimes.co.uk/news/glider-fire-sparks-investigators-to-consider-new-safety-recommendations-1-8170542

[Tim Newport-Peace[_4_]]

At 07:45 28 September 2017, Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas
wrote:
>Photo of the glider on fire in the UK found here:
>http://www.wscountytimes.co.uk/news/glider-fire-sparks-investigators-to-consider-new-safety-recommendations-1-8170542
>
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/59c8f175e5274a49c07f4704/AAIB_S3-2017_G-GSGS.pdf

Would be more factual and detailed.

[Dave Nadler]

On Thursday, September 28, 2017 at 7:15:06 AM UTC-4, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/59c8f175e5274a49c07f4704/AAIB_S3-2017_G-GSGS.pdf
>
> Would be more factual and detailed.

Thanks Tim, actual facts are *much* appreciated (and rare on RAS)...

[krasw]

On Thursday, 28 September 2017 15:49:02 UTC+3, Dave Nadler wrote:
> Thanks Tim, actual facts are *much* appreciated (and rare on RAS)...

I do not think facts are rare on RAS, can you elaborate?

[John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]]

On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 12:14:40 PM UTC-4, JS wrote:
> Saw the document on [Aus-Soaring] thanks to John Welsh.
> Link to UK site below.
> Jim
>
> http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20170906EASAAD20170167E.pdf

It's not call rant.aviation.soaring for nothing.

[Ramy[_2_]]

Comparing to other online news and discussions, I find RAS to be highly reliable source of information with reasonable amount of rant. In fact, I am not aware of any other single source of news and facts which is better, more reliable and more timely than RAS. Usually when someone posts misleading information they get corrected quickly. Using this thread as an example, I wonder if/when/how I would have known about this serious issue without RAS. I wouldn't be surprised if some FES owners learned about this issue first time on RAS.

Ramy

[Craig Funston]

On Friday, September 29, 2017 at 10:16:13 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> Comparing to other online news and discussions, I find RAS to be highly reliable source of information with reasonable amount of rant. In fact, I am not aware of any other single source of news and facts which is better, more reliable and more timely than RAS. Usually when someone posts misleading information they get corrected quickly. Using this thread as an example, I wonder if/when/how I would have known about this serious issue without RAS.. I wouldn't be surprised if some FES owners learned about this issue first time on RAS.
>
> Ramy

Some of us just have PTSD from the Lennie days & view RAS with a measure of skepticism. You're right though that viewed from the perspective of the current state of the web RAS isn't too bad. Thanks everyone for keeping this a reasonably civil discussion space.

Craig

[waremark]

On Friday, 8 September 2017 17:14:40 UTC+1, JS wrote:
> Saw the document on [Aus-Soaring] thanks to John Welsh.
> Link to UK site below.
> Jim
>
> http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20170906EASAAD20170167E.pdf

Are Schleicher sitting pretty or does the electric ASG32 use similar batteries?

[Tango Whisky]

But Lennie & Al were fun, though ;-)

Bert

[[email protected]]

Dne ponedeljek, 11. september 2017 03.17.29 UTC+2 je oseba Renny napisala:
> On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 7:00:44 PM UTC-6, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> > On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 11:37:53 AM UTC-7, Steve Leonard wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 11:14:40 AM UTC-5, JS wrote:
> > > > Saw the document on [Aus-Soaring] thanks to John Welsh.
> > > > Link to UK site below.
> > > > Jim
> > > >
> > > > http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20170906EASAAD20170167E.pdf
> > >
> > > Hmm... I wonder what an approved modification to the battery pack or its installation consists of?
> >
> > What battery chemistry are they using? LiPos?
> >
> > 9B
>
> Andy - You are correct!


For FES battery packs we are using Li-Ion cells with NMC chemistry (Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide: LiNiMnCoO2. cathode, graphite anode)


http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion

And why Li-Ion pouch cell are usually identified as LiPo.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/the_li_polymer_battery_substance_or_hype

Regards,

Luka

[[email protected]]

Dne ponedeljek, 09. oktober 2017 18.05.31 UTC+2 je oseba napisala:
> Dne ponedeljek, 11. september 2017 03.17.29 UTC+2 je oseba Renny napisala:
> > On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 7:00:44 PM UTC-6, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 11:37:53 AM UTC-7, Steve Leonard wrote:
> > > > On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 11:14:40 AM UTC-5, JS wrote:
> > > > > Saw the document on [Aus-Soaring] thanks to John Welsh.
> > > > > Link to UK site below.
> > > > > Jim
> > > > >
> > > > > http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20170906EASAAD20170167E.pdf
> > > >
> > > > Hmm... I wonder what an approved modification to the battery pack or its installation consists of?
> > >
> > > What battery chemistry are they using? LiPos?
> > >
> > > 9B
> >
> > Andy - You are correct!
>
>
> For FES battery packs we are using Li-Ion cells with NMC chemistry (Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide: LiNiMnCoO2. cathode, graphite anode)
>
>
> http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion
>
> And why Li-Ion pouch cell are usually identified as LiPo.
>
> http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/the_li_polymer_battery_substance_or_hype
>
> Regards,
>
> Luka

Dear fellow glider pilots, FES owners and electric flight enthusiasts, please find link to our letter, regarding recent FES incidents:

http://www.front-electric-sustainer.com/PDF%20Articles/Dear%20fellow%20glider%20pilots,%20FES%20owners%20 and%20electric%20flight%20enthusiasts.pdf

Regards,

Luka