Engine prices?

[Richard Lamb]

Well, boys and girls, I may just beat the medical issue after all.

If (when?) that happens, I'll immediately start on a new Tailwind
(I sold my project a while back because it didn't look like this
was ever going to happen). So I'm jumping the gun a little bit, but
it's important to have a goal in mind when the fat lady sings!

Starting from scratch allows one to custom tailor the cockpit to
match the old bod. I'm fairly tall (6'2+some) and long legged.

The seating worked out well enough for a couple of hours at a
time, and Jim Clement's mods can increase the leg room by 2 inches,
and move the seat backs back about two inches. I think that would
make a much more comfortable cockpit for too tall Texans.

But I've also started considering a replica O-O Special like Rick
Crosslin is just about to finish up. The O-O is a bit bigger plane
to start with, and might be a better match to my desired mission.

Mr Wittman designed it to fly from Oshkosh to Ocalla(?), Fla nonstop.

At 50% power it was reported to turn in 215 mph and made that trip
with reserves to spare.

What I'd like to ask is how the price of an O-470 Conintental would
compare to an O-320 Lycoming. I suspect the RV demand for the O-320
has kept the price up. But there aren't that many planes that use an
O-470. I thought it might even be less expensive as a result of lower
demand?

Anyone have a feel for that comparison?
Or even a good engine they not longer need?


Thanks all,

Richard Lamb

[Darrel Toepfer]

Richard Lamb wrote:

> Well, boys and girls, I may just beat the medical issue after all.

Congrats...

> But I've also started considering a replica O-O Special like Rick
> Crosslin is just about to finish up. The O-O is a bit bigger plane
> to start with, and might be a better match to my desired mission.
>
> Mr Wittman designed it to fly from Oshkosh to Ocalla(?), Fla nonstop.
>
> At 50% power it was reported to turn in 215 mph and made that trip
> with reserves to spare.

Hi Richard, is there somewhere on the web to get the specs on it?

I found this, but it appears to be his previous Tailwind project:
http://www.j-winddesigns.com/Pages/ConstructionPhotoGuide.html
and the info on the same in the Yahoo TailwindForum group...

Rick looks to be the size pilot I'm familiar with... <g>

[Richard Lamb]

Darrel Toepfer wrote:
>
> Richard Lamb wrote:
>
> > Well, boys and girls, I may just beat the medical issue after all.
>
> Congrats...
>
> > But I've also started considering a replica O-O Special like Rick
> > Crosslin is just about to finish up. The O-O is a bit bigger plane
> > to start with, and might be a better match to my desired mission.
> >
> > Mr Wittman designed it to fly from Oshkosh to Ocalla(?), Fla nonstop.
> >
> > At 50% power it was reported to turn in 215 mph and made that trip
> > with reserves to spare.
>
> Hi Richard, is there somewhere on the web to get the specs on it?

Not really. Rick is building from Tailwind plans and Steve's raw notes.
I've offered to draw up the plans package when he's done.
Thought that would give me a chance to build a 'proof of plans' plane.
(BG!)

> I found this, but it appears to be his previous Tailwind project:
> http://www.j-winddesigns.com/Pages/ConstructionPhotoGuide.html
> and the info on the same in the Yahoo TailwindForum group...
>
> Rick looks to be the size pilot I'm familiar with... <g>

Short people! Huh!

[jls]

"Richard Lamb" > wrote in message
...
> Darrel Toepfer wrote:
> >
> > Richard Lamb wrote:
> >
> > > Well, boys and girls, I may just beat the medical issue after all.
> >
> > Congrats...
> >
> > > But I've also started considering a replica O-O Special like Rick
> > > Crosslin is just about to finish up. The O-O is a bit bigger plane
> > > to start with, and might be a better match to my desired mission.
> > >
> > > Mr Wittman designed it to fly from Oshkosh to Ocalla(?), Fla nonstop.
> > >
> > > At 50% power it was reported to turn in 215 mph and made that trip
> > > with reserves to spare.
> >
> > Hi Richard, is there somewhere on the web to get the specs on it?
>
> Not really. Rick is building from Tailwind plans and Steve's raw notes.
> I've offered to draw up the plans package when he's done.
> Thought that would give me a chance to build a 'proof of plans' plane.
> (BG!)
>
> > I found this, but it appears to be his previous Tailwind project:
> > http://www.j-winddesigns.com/Pages/ConstructionPhotoGuide.html
> > and the info on the same in the Yahoo TailwindForum group...
> >
> > Rick looks to be the size pilot I'm familiar with... <g>
>
> Short people! Huh!

There was an article with pictures of Crosslin's O-O Special at the Sport
Aviation Association website some time back. http://www.sportaviation.org/
Apparently the article is no longer on the site. I remember reading it and
looking at the pictures. Crosslin was using a six-cylinder IO-360 rather
than an O-470, however.

If you e-mail Paul Poberezny he would probably send you a copy of the
article on Crosslin's O-O. Crosslin hangs out in the Yahoogroups Tailwind
forum.

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:07:56 GMT, Richard Lamb >
wrote:

>At 50% power it was reported to turn in 215 mph and made that trip
>with reserves to spare.

Man, I'd sure like to confirm THAT.

Corky Scott

[Darrel Toepfer]

jls wrote:

> There was an article with pictures of Crosslin's O-O Special at the Sport
> Aviation Association website some time back. http://www.sportaviation.org/
> Apparently the article is no longer on the site. I remember reading it and
> looking at the pictures. Crosslin was using a six-cylinder IO-360 rather
> than an O-470, however.
>
> If you e-mail Paul Poberezny he would probably send you a copy of the
> article on Crosslin's O-O. Crosslin hangs out in the Yahoogroups Tailwind
> forum.

Thanks, will have to look for it:
Volume 7 Number 3 Fall 2003 Page 14
Has a red Waco on the cover...

I love the speed and efficiency of the Tailwind, but its cockpit size
and the weight it can carry are a real setback...

[Richard Lamb]

Richard Riley wrote:
>
> On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:07:56 GMT, Richard Lamb >
> wrote:
>
> :
> :But I've also started considering a replica O-O Special like Rick
> :Crosslin is just about to finish up. The O-O is a bit bigger plane
> :to start with, and might be a better match to my desired mission.
>
> Glad to hear the design is being kept alive.
>
> :
> :Mr Wittman designed it to fly from Oshkosh to Ocalla(?), Fla nonstop.
> :
> :At 50% power it was reported to turn in 215 mph and made that trip
> :with reserves to spare.
> :
> :What I'd like to ask is how the price of an O-470 Conintental would
> :compare to an O-320 Lycoming. I suspect the RV demand for the O-320
> :has kept the price up. But there aren't that many planes that use an
> :O-470. I thought it might even be less expensive as a result of lower
> :demand?
>
> You might be able to get one of these cheap
>
> http://web.govliquidation.com/auction/search?cmd=keyword&warehouse=CA22V,CA22
>
> And this is a good reference
>
> http://www.avweb.com/news/reviews/182885-1.html
>
> It will absolutely be cheaper than a 320 or 360. Barnstormers has
> cores at $3000-4000, and rebuilts at about $8-9000. Figure 60% of the
> Lyc price.
>
> Could the O&O take the weight? They aren't light.

Don't really know yet.

I'm waiting for Rick to decide if he'll share some dimensions for
a close look at the weight and balance.

But man, what a ride that would be!

[Richard Lamb]

Richard Riley wrote:
>
> On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 02:50:44 GMT, Richard Lamb >
> wrote:
>
> :> Could the O&O take the weight? They aren't light.
> :
> :Don't really know yet.
> :
> :I'm waiting for Rick to decide if he'll share some dimensions for
> :a close look at the weight and balance.
>
> You can always move weight to the tail. But watch the empty weight,
> and how much useful load you're ending up with.
> :
> :But man, what a ride that would be!
>
> Yeah. Kind of like stuffing an IO-540 in a Long EZ. :)


Naw, WAY better than that. It is a Tailwind, afterall!

(couldn't resist that one, Richard!)

Richard

[Morgans]

"Richard Riley" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 02:50:44 GMT, Richard Lamb >
> wrote:
>
> :> Could the O&O take the weight? They aren't light.
> :
> :Don't really know yet.
> :
> :I'm waiting for Rick to decide if he'll share some dimensions for
> :a close look at the weight and balance.
>
> You can always move weight to the tail. But watch the empty weight,
> and how much useful load you're ending up with.
> :
> :But man, what a ride that would be!
>
> Yeah. Kind of like stuffing an IO-540 in a Long EZ. :)
*************************

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't some people put a Buick V- 8 in
Tailwinds? That would weigh more than a 470, wouldn't it?

Others have gone the Tim Allen view of more power, in airplanes.

The 470 in a Tailwind would go kinda like a souped up Chevy 350, in a BD-4?
I know that has been done. :-)
--
Jim in NC


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[John]

Yeah 4.6l --- 7.7l
A lot more low-end torque too!



Richard Lamb wrote:

> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 02:21:38 -0400, "Morgans"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't some people put a Buick V- 8 in
>> >Tailwinds? That would weigh more than a 470, wouldn't it?
>>
>> Don't think so Jim. I had an 0-470 sitting in my shop and can testify
>> that it was a LOT more difficult to lift using my block and tackle
>> than the two Ford V6's I offloaded. The block and tackle almost
>> couldn't lift the 0-470 but easily hoisted the V6's.
>>
>> I know it's anecdotal, but this was with a stripped block to boot.
>> The 0-470 did not have the starter attached, nor did it have the two
>> mags or generator or the pressure regulator for the prop. It was just
>> very very heavy even without all those things.
>>
>> Corky Scott
>
> Not to labor the obvious, but there IS a little size difference between
> 4.6 liter and 470 cubic inches...
>
> Richard (no substitute for cubes) Lamb

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 02:21:38 -0400, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't some people put a Buick V- 8 in
>Tailwinds? That would weigh more than a 470, wouldn't it?

Don't think so Jim. I had an 0-470 sitting in my shop and can testify
that it was a LOT more difficult to lift using my block and tackle
than the two Ford V6's I offloaded. The block and tackle almost
couldn't lift the 0-470 but easily hoisted the V6's.

I know it's anecdotal, but this was with a stripped block to boot.
The 0-470 did not have the starter attached, nor did it have the two
mags or generator or the pressure regulator for the prop. It was just
very very heavy even without all those things.

Corky Scott

[jls]

> wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 02:21:38 -0400, "Morgans"
> > wrote:
>
> >Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't some people put a Buick V- 8 in
> >Tailwinds? That would weigh more than a 470, wouldn't it?
>
> Don't think so Jim. I had an 0-470 sitting in my shop and can testify
> that it was a LOT more difficult to lift using my block and tackle
> than the two Ford V6's I offloaded. The block and tackle almost
> couldn't lift the 0-470 but easily hoisted the V6's.
>
> I know it's anecdotal, but this was with a stripped block to boot.
> The 0-470 did not have the starter attached, nor did it have the two
> mags or generator or the pressure regulator for the prop. It was just
> very very heavy even without all those things.
>
> Corky Scott

Corky, that heavy O-470 engine is the powerplant originally used by Steve
Wittman in the O-O Special.

Weight is much of the reason why Crosslin went to a TCM IO-360, which is
lighter and a much more efficient engine with fuel injection and a constant
speed prop.

[Richard Lamb]

wrote:
>
> On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 02:21:38 -0400, "Morgans"
> > wrote:
>
> >Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't some people put a Buick V- 8 in
> >Tailwinds? That would weigh more than a 470, wouldn't it?
>
> Don't think so Jim. I had an 0-470 sitting in my shop and can testify
> that it was a LOT more difficult to lift using my block and tackle
> than the two Ford V6's I offloaded. The block and tackle almost
> couldn't lift the 0-470 but easily hoisted the V6's.
>
> I know it's anecdotal, but this was with a stripped block to boot.
> The 0-470 did not have the starter attached, nor did it have the two
> mags or generator or the pressure regulator for the prop. It was just
> very very heavy even without all those things.
>
> Corky Scott

Not to labor the obvious, but there IS a little size difference between
4.6 liter and 470 cubic inches...

Richard (no substitute for cubes) Lamb

[Skyking]

"Richard Riley" > wrote in message > :What I'd like
to ask is how the price of an O-470 Conintental would
> :compare to an O-320 Lycoming. I suspect the RV demand for the O-320
> :has kept the price up. But there aren't that many planes that use an
O-470. I thought it might even be less expensive as a result of lower
> :demand?
>
> You might be able to get one of these cheap

How many Cessna 180's and 182's were built?
All of the older ones use this engine.



Good luck,

Skyking

[Richard Lamb]

Skyking wrote:
>
> "Richard Riley" > wrote in message > :What I'd like
> to ask is how the price of an O-470 Conintental would
> > :compare to an O-320 Lycoming. I suspect the RV demand for the O-320
> > :has kept the price up. But there aren't that many planes that use an
> O-470. I thought it might even be less expensive as a result of lower
> > :demand?
> >
> > You might be able to get one of these cheap
>
> How many Cessna 180's and 182's were built?
> All of the older ones use this engine.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Skyking

Sorry, your Highness, I should have said 'homebuilt' plans...
mia cuppa.

Richard

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 13:22:55 GMT, Richard Lamb >
wrote:

>Not to labor the obvious, but there IS a little size difference between
>4.6 liter and 470 cubic inches...
>
>Richard (no substitute for cubes) Lamb

If we are talking about the same engine, the Buick/Olds aluminum V8,
it's lots worse than that. The original engine was 215 cubic inches
in displacement. That's 3.5 Liters.

By the way, the 3.8L Ford V6 engined Pawnee being used in Australia as
a glider tug is spinning the prop (via Blanton type PSRU) originally
used by the Pawnee when it had it's original engine which I believe
was an 0-470. It's spinning it at **exactly** the same prop rpm the
0-470 spun it. What does that tell you about power?

But it uses way less gas doing it.

Before BOb steps in and makes a comment, let me add that most of the
reason for the reduction in fuel burn is due to the method of flying
and the fuel mixture. The tug hauls the glider up to it's drop point,
then closes the throttle to idle and returns to the field with the
engine staying at idle the whole way. When the 0-470 was used, the
throttle was never closed for descent (shock cooling doncha know) and
who knows if the mixture was leaned during the return.

In addition, it's possible that the carburator mixture runs normally
more lean than the carburator mixture at full rich with the 0-470.
This is possible with the Ford because variable automatic timing can
still be used.

Magneto timing must be preset at around 26 degrees before top dead
center and does not move. In order to get the Peak Pressure Point of
the combustion process to occur at 16 degrees past top dead center
(rather than closer to top dead center which increases pressure and
heat) the combustion process must be slowed somehow. Engineers
achieved this by making the mixture overrich for takeoff and climb.

But since the Ford engine can vary the timing automatically (if the
builder uses a distributer or electronic ignition that allows this),
the timing is always where it needs to be to have the PPP occur where
it needs to for proper engine power. An overly rich mixture is not
necessary to achieve this.

Corky Scott

[Barnyard BOb -]

On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 13:28:07 GMT, Richard Lamb >
wrote:


>
>Sorry, your Highness, I should have said 'homebuilt' plans...
>mia cuppa.
>
>Richard
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Is that the same as 'mea culpa'...

with a Texass accent? <g>



Barnyard BOb - the Show Me State

[Richard Lamb]

Barnyard BOb - wrote:
>
> On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 13:28:07 GMT, Richard Lamb >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Sorry, your Highness, I should have said 'homebuilt' plans...
> >mia cuppa.
> >
> >Richard
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Is that the same as 'mea culpa'...
>
> with a Texass accent? <g>
>
> Barnyard BOb - the Show Me State

Might have been that liddle lady in the movies...
I know she's guilty of _something_!

;)