Wanted Sparrowhawk

[David Bingham]

I am looking for a Sparrowhawk new/used with or without a trailer.
Immediate cash. I am often asked why do I want one when I have a
DG800B, a Stemme S10-VT and several paragliders. I think the
Sparrowhawk is possibly the most interesting glider development in the
past 10 years and it would complete my stable of enjoyable soaring
machines.
Dave

[BTIZ]

be careful what you wish for.. it may be difficult to get aero tows at
glider operations, unless they turn their heads to the rules, more and more
people are waking up to the rules.

1) The Sparrowhawk is an ultra light, not a glider
2) It does not have an airworthiness certificate that says it is a glider
3) It does not get an N-number registration
4) Most tow pilots are only certified to tow gliders, see number (1), (2)
and (3) above, to tow ANYTHING else requires special endorsements
5) Most tow insurance is for towing gliders, not ultralights, see number
(1),(2) and (3) above

I always thought the Sparrowhawk was "neat" and was considering one also.
But there are more and more road blocks showing up. Note that the
Sparrowhawk web page does not address the "not a glider but an ultralight"
and "getting a tow" issue, but it does state that they do not "need" (read
"get") an airworthiness certificate.

And if it is an ultra light then you really don't need a "Glider" rating to
fly it.

Like I said, some people who tow either
(1) just don't know they have FAR and Insurance problems when towing an
ultra light
(2) don't care
(3) or they know, and figure the risk is worth the $20-35 tow fee

BT

"David Bingham" > wrote in message
om...
> I am looking for a Sparrowhawk new/used with or without a trailer.
> Immediate cash. I am often asked why do I want one when I have a
> DG800B, a Stemme S10-VT and several paragliders. I think the
> Sparrowhawk is possibly the most interesting glider development in the
> past 10 years and it would complete my stable of enjoyable soaring
> machines.
> Dave

[Eric Greenwell]

BTIZ wrote:
> be careful what you wish for.. it may be difficult to get aero tows at
> glider operations, unless they turn their heads to the rules, more and more
> people are waking up to the rules.
>
> 1) The Sparrowhawk is an ultra light, not a glider
> 2) It does not have an airworthiness certificate that says it is a glider
> 3) It does not get an N-number registration
> 4) Most tow pilots are only certified to tow gliders, see number (1), (2)
> and (3) above, to tow ANYTHING else requires special endorsements
> 5) Most tow insurance is for towing gliders, not ultralights, see number
> (1),(2) and (3) above
>
> I always thought the Sparrowhawk was "neat" and was considering one also.
> But there are more and more road blocks showing up. Note that the
> Sparrowhawk web page does not address the "not a glider but an ultralight"
> and "getting a tow" issue, but it does state that they do not "need" (read
> "get") an airworthiness certificate.

But Wait! You CAN get one! Look up N109WP and N40437, two SparrowHawks
that are registered.

Of course, if all you do is get tows at the local gliderport, you aren't
taking advantage of it's light weight.

*Unlike a 700-800 pound glider, it's 350 pound flying weight can be
easily towed by an ultralight aircraft.

*Auto tow, even with a small vehicle, is practical.

*Or get a small winch!

*Bungey launch would be a hoot!

*At the right launch site, a "roll-off" launch would be good.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Eric Greenwell]

Mark James Boyd wrote:

>>*Unlike a 700-800 pound glider, it's 350 pound flying weight can be
>>easily towed by an ultralight aircraft.
>>
>>*Auto tow, even with a small vehicle, is practical.
>>
>>Eric Greenwell
>
>
> Yep, I would imagine that the economy of scale is good for a nice super-long
> towrope off a ford pinto :P Or my trusty mazda protege...
>
> Aren't there some real light fishing lines that are 350# test?
> Maybe get launched and towed behind a boat? I bet one could
> fashion a catamaran into a launch vehicle ;))PPPP

I'd look at what the hang glider people use to tow and winch with, since
they are launching comparable weights, though probably at slower speeds.
Entering "hang glider winches" into Google brought up some interesting
sites.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[BTIZ]

great Eric !! I had not seen any with N numbers.. how did they get that with
a factory produced glider that had not passed Part 23 testing standards?

I had only seen the "other" literature about the "no need for papers"

BT

"Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
...
> BTIZ wrote:
> > be careful what you wish for.. it may be difficult to get aero tows at
> > glider operations, unless they turn their heads to the rules, more and
more
> > people are waking up to the rules.
> >
> > 1) The Sparrowhawk is an ultra light, not a glider
> > 2) It does not have an airworthiness certificate that says it is a
glider
> > 3) It does not get an N-number registration
> > 4) Most tow pilots are only certified to tow gliders, see number (1),
(2)
> > and (3) above, to tow ANYTHING else requires special endorsements
> > 5) Most tow insurance is for towing gliders, not ultralights, see number
> > (1),(2) and (3) above
> >
> > I always thought the Sparrowhawk was "neat" and was considering one
also.
> > But there are more and more road blocks showing up. Note that the
> > Sparrowhawk web page does not address the "not a glider but an
ultralight"
> > and "getting a tow" issue, but it does state that they do not "need"
(read
> > "get") an airworthiness certificate.
>
> But Wait! You CAN get one! Look up N109WP and N40437, two SparrowHawks
> that are registered.
>
> Of course, if all you do is get tows at the local gliderport, you aren't
> taking advantage of it's light weight.
>
> *Unlike a 700-800 pound glider, it's 350 pound flying weight can be
> easily towed by an ultralight aircraft.
>
> *Auto tow, even with a small vehicle, is practical.
>
> *Or get a small winch!
>
> *Bungey launch would be a hoot!
>
> *At the right launch site, a "roll-off" launch would be good.
>
> --
> Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> Eric Greenwell
> Washington State
> USA
>

[Mark James Boyd]

>*Unlike a 700-800 pound glider, it's 350 pound flying weight can be
>easily towed by an ultralight aircraft.
>
>*Auto tow, even with a small vehicle, is practical.
>
>Eric Greenwell

Yep, I would imagine that the economy of scale is good for a nice super-long
towrope off a ford pinto :P Or my trusty mazda protege...

Aren't there some real light fishing lines that are 350# test?
Maybe get launched and towed behind a boat? I bet one could
fashion a catamaran into a launch vehicle ;))PPPP

--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

[BTIZ]

I know a report of one Sparrowhawk that showed up at a commercial operation
for a tow and was denied. He could not produce an airworthy cert that said
it was a glider, nor did he have an N number that I am aware of. Also he did
not bring proof of insurance.

He went to another glider operation and was towed. Is how the report went.
Either the other operator (1) knew him, (2) did not realize to ask the right
questions, it's hard to tell.

BT

"Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
...
> BTIZ wrote:
> > be careful what you wish for.. it may be difficult to get aero tows at
> > glider operations, unless they turn their heads to the rules, more and
more
> > people are waking up to the rules.
> >
> > 1) The Sparrowhawk is an ultra light, not a glider
> > 2) It does not have an airworthiness certificate that says it is a
glider
> > 3) It does not get an N-number registration
> > 4) Most tow pilots are only certified to tow gliders, see number (1),
(2)
> > and (3) above, to tow ANYTHING else requires special endorsements
> > 5) Most tow insurance is for towing gliders, not ultralights, see number
> > (1),(2) and (3) above
> >
> > I always thought the Sparrowhawk was "neat" and was considering one
also.
> > But there are more and more road blocks showing up. Note that the
> > Sparrowhawk web page does not address the "not a glider but an
ultralight"
> > and "getting a tow" issue, but it does state that they do not "need"
(read
> > "get") an airworthiness certificate.
>
> But Wait! You CAN get one! Look up N109WP and N40437, two SparrowHawks
> that are registered.
>
> Of course, if all you do is get tows at the local gliderport, you aren't
> taking advantage of it's light weight.
>
> *Unlike a 700-800 pound glider, it's 350 pound flying weight can be
> easily towed by an ultralight aircraft.
>
> *Auto tow, even with a small vehicle, is practical.
>
> *Or get a small winch!
>
> *Bungey launch would be a hoot!
>
> *At the right launch site, a "roll-off" launch would be good.
>
> --
> Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> Eric Greenwell
> Washington State
> USA
>

[Eric Greenwell]

BTIZ wrote:
> great Eric !! I had not seen any with N numbers.. how did they get that with
> a factory produced glider that had not passed Part 23 testing standards?
>
> I had only seen the "other" literature about the "no need for papers"
>

I don't know the details, so a call to Greg Cole at Windward Performance
would be best. Or call Dave Stevenson. He flew a SparrowHawk (the
Delaware one, I think) in the Sports Class Nationals last year. It had
to be registered to enter the contest (insurance requirement).
--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[F.L. Whiteley]

experimental, exhibition and racing, no doubt

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:9N0ic.19807$432.4599@fed1read01...
> great Eric !! I had not seen any with N numbers.. how did they get that
with
> a factory produced glider that had not passed Part 23 testing standards?
>
> I had only seen the "other" literature about the "no need for papers"
>
> BT
>
> "Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
> ...
> > BTIZ wrote:
> > > be careful what you wish for.. it may be difficult to get aero tows at
> > > glider operations, unless they turn their heads to the rules, more and
> more
> > > people are waking up to the rules.
> > >
> > > 1) The Sparrowhawk is an ultra light, not a glider
> > > 2) It does not have an airworthiness certificate that says it is a
> glider
> > > 3) It does not get an N-number registration
> > > 4) Most tow pilots are only certified to tow gliders, see number (1),
> (2)
> > > and (3) above, to tow ANYTHING else requires special endorsements
> > > 5) Most tow insurance is for towing gliders, not ultralights, see
number
> > > (1),(2) and (3) above
> > >
> > > I always thought the Sparrowhawk was "neat" and was considering one
> also.
> > > But there are more and more road blocks showing up. Note that the
> > > Sparrowhawk web page does not address the "not a glider but an
> ultralight"
> > > and "getting a tow" issue, but it does state that they do not "need"
> (read
> > > "get") an airworthiness certificate.
> >
> > But Wait! You CAN get one! Look up N109WP and N40437, two SparrowHawks
> > that are registered.
> >
> > Of course, if all you do is get tows at the local gliderport, you aren't
> > taking advantage of it's light weight.
> >
> > *Unlike a 700-800 pound glider, it's 350 pound flying weight can be
> > easily towed by an ultralight aircraft.
> >
> > *Auto tow, even with a small vehicle, is practical.
> >
> > *Or get a small winch!
> >
> > *Bungey launch would be a hoot!
> >
> > *At the right launch site, a "roll-off" launch would be good.
> >
> > --
> > Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
> >
> > Eric Greenwell
> > Washington State
> > USA
> >
>
>

[F.L. Whiteley]

"Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
...
> BTIZ wrote:
> > be careful what you wish for.. it may be difficult to get aero tows at
> > glider operations, unless they turn their heads to the rules, more and
more
> > people are waking up to the rules.
> >
> > 1) The Sparrowhawk is an ultra light, not a glider
> > 2) It does not have an airworthiness certificate that says it is a
glider
> > 3) It does not get an N-number registration
> > 4) Most tow pilots are only certified to tow gliders, see number (1),
(2)
> > and (3) above, to tow ANYTHING else requires special endorsements
> > 5) Most tow insurance is for towing gliders, not ultralights, see number
> > (1),(2) and (3) above
> >
> > I always thought the Sparrowhawk was "neat" and was considering one
also.
> > But there are more and more road blocks showing up. Note that the
> > Sparrowhawk web page does not address the "not a glider but an
ultralight"
> > and "getting a tow" issue, but it does state that they do not "need"
(read
> > "get") an airworthiness certificate.
>
> But Wait! You CAN get one! Look up N109WP and N40437, two SparrowHawks
> that are registered.
>
> Of course, if all you do is get tows at the local gliderport, you aren't
> taking advantage of it's light weight.
>
> *Unlike a 700-800 pound glider, it's 350 pound flying weight can be
> easily towed by an ultralight aircraft.
>
> *Auto tow, even with a small vehicle, is practical.
>
> *Or get a small winch!
>
> *Bungey launch would be a hoot!
>
> *At the right launch site, a "roll-off" launch would be good.
>
> --
too right, hg payout winch

Ford built one a few years back

[F.L. Whiteley]

caveat emptor

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:rb1ic.19810$432.4468@fed1read01...
> I know a report of one Sparrowhawk that showed up at a commercial
operation
> for a tow and was denied. He could not produce an airworthy cert that said
> it was a glider, nor did he have an N number that I am aware of. Also he
did
> not bring proof of insurance.
>
> He went to another glider operation and was towed. Is how the report went.
> Either the other operator (1) knew him, (2) did not realize to ask the
right
> questions, it's hard to tell.
>
> BT
>
> "Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
> ...
> > BTIZ wrote:
> > > be careful what you wish for.. it may be difficult to get aero tows at
> > > glider operations, unless they turn their heads to the rules, more and
> more
> > > people are waking up to the rules.
> > >
> > > 1) The Sparrowhawk is an ultra light, not a glider
> > > 2) It does not have an airworthiness certificate that says it is a
> glider
> > > 3) It does not get an N-number registration
> > > 4) Most tow pilots are only certified to tow gliders, see number (1),
> (2)
> > > and (3) above, to tow ANYTHING else requires special endorsements
> > > 5) Most tow insurance is for towing gliders, not ultralights, see
number
> > > (1),(2) and (3) above
> > >
> > > I always thought the Sparrowhawk was "neat" and was considering one
> also.
> > > But there are more and more road blocks showing up. Note that the
> > > Sparrowhawk web page does not address the "not a glider but an
> ultralight"
> > > and "getting a tow" issue, but it does state that they do not "need"
> (read
> > > "get") an airworthiness certificate.
> >
> > But Wait! You CAN get one! Look up N109WP and N40437, two SparrowHawks
> > that are registered.
> >
> > Of course, if all you do is get tows at the local gliderport, you aren't
> > taking advantage of it's light weight.
> >
> > *Unlike a 700-800 pound glider, it's 350 pound flying weight can be
> > easily towed by an ultralight aircraft.
> >
> > *Auto tow, even with a small vehicle, is practical.
> >
> > *Or get a small winch!
> >
> > *Bungey launch would be a hoot!
> >
> > *At the right launch site, a "roll-off" launch would be good.
> >
> > --
> > Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
> >
> > Eric Greenwell
> > Washington State
> > USA
> >
>
>

[WilLiscomb]

What about USHGA insurance? They used to provide members with liability
insurance. Regarding launch methods - consider the wing loading is more
sailplane than hang glider...
williscomb

[Bob Kuykendall]

Earlier, "BTIZ" > wrote:

> ...how did they get that with
> a factory produced glider that had
> not passed Part 23 testing standards?

Um, like an ASW-20 or a Zuni, perhaps?

Bob K.

[BTIZ]

but the ASW has a "Type Data Certificate" issued by the country where built.
I guess that would be "LBA".

The ultralight Sparrowhawk does not

BT

"Bob Kuykendall" > wrote in message
om...
> Earlier, "BTIZ" > wrote:
>
> > ...how did they get that with
> > a factory produced glider that had
> > not passed Part 23 testing standards?
>
> Um, like an ASW-20 or a Zuni, perhaps?
>
> Bob K.

[BTIZ]

> I don't know the details, so a call to Greg Cole at Windward Performance
> would be best. Or call Dave Stevenson. He flew a SparrowHawk (the
> Delaware one, I think) in the Sports Class Nationals last year. It had
> to be registered to enter the contest (insurance requirement).
>

Bingo, and if it don't have a airworthy cert, and n numbers. Any tow pilot
certifed under FAR par 91.309 and 91.311 can't tow it.

BT

[Robertmudd1u]

>I know a report of one Sparrowhawk that showed up at a commercial operation
>for a tow and was denied. He could not produce an airworthy cert that said
>it was a glider,

No where on the Experimental airworthness certificate or on the registration
does it say the aircraft is a glider or airplane or anything else. There is no
box on the Application For Airworthness form to check for glider or airplane.

I just got finished having an Experimental, Exhibition airworthness certificate
issued for the first Pipistrel Virus to be licenced in the USA. N937R. Both
the DAR and I were puzzled by this but is it standard procedure.

You can licence almost anything in the Experimental catogory. It need no have
certification for any other country or if it does the USA may not accept it but
you can still get an Experimental Airworthness certificate issued for it.

Robert Mudd

[Bob Kuykendall]

Earlier, "BTIZ" > wrote:

> but the ASW has a "Type Data Certificate"
> issued by the country where built.
> I guess that would be "LBA".
>
> The ultralight Sparrowhawk does not

The foreign certification of the ASW-20 has no bearing on the lack of
US certification of these ships. For whatever reason, Schleicher
declined to seek US type certification. Individual aircraft of this
type operate in the US under special airworthiness certificates as
Experimental, Racing or Exhibition aircraft.

I guess that the better example in this case is indeed the Zuni. It
also was manufactured in series production, does not hold type
certification anywhere, and all examples operate under special
airworthiness certificates as Experimental, Racing or Exhibition
aircraft.

Bob K.

[Bob Kuykendall]

I thought this thread seemed a bit like Deja Vu all over again:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1895075629d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=42f0299c.0401131625.6b96c97c%40posting.google .com

:)

Bob K.

[Gill Couto]

They still do. It would have to be capable of being foot-launched,
not just roll-launched, to qualify as a hang glider under USHGA
requirements.

Sooner or later a motorized version of the Sparrowhawk will appear.
That would make most launch permit problems vanish.

gill
www.gillcouto.com/hg

WilLiscomb wrote:

> What about USHGA insurance? They used to provide members with liability
> insurance. Regarding launch methods - consider the wing loading is more
> sailplane than hang glider...
> williscomb