Garmin Rino

[Martin Hellman]

With all the talk about anti-collision devices, I've been seriously
looking at the Garmin Rino family (110, 120 and 130). These have been
mentioned a few times on RAS, but no one reported any experience using
them. Anyone out there use them? If so, I'd be interested in hearing
your experience and which model you think makes the most sense and
why. (Given that I have a Garmin 196, I expect I'd go with the 110 to
save money, but maybe I'm missing something.)

I realize Rino's would only be useful if the other glider has one, but
that could have been the case in the recent midair since both gliders
flew out of the same strip. Either everyone flying there could be
encouraged to buy them ($150 for the 110) or the FBO could rent them.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Martin

[Snead1]

I have two Garmin Rinho 110's. I bought them to data link to ground. Air to
ground range seems to be about 15 miles. I have not tested air to air range.

The tracks will transfer to a lap top on the ground, but not in real time.(with
standard garmin software)

If anyone would like me to test anything specific let me know.

Bill Snead
Georgetown Texas
6W

[Eric Greenwell]

Snead1 wrote:
> I have two Garmin Rinho 110's. I bought them to data link to ground. Air to
> ground range seems to be about 15 miles. I have not tested air to air range.
>
> The tracks will transfer to a lap top on the ground, but not in real time.(with
> standard garmin software)
>
> If anyone would like me to test anything specific let me know.

What kind of data do you wish to link to the ground?

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Robert Ehrlich]

Snead1 wrote:
>
> I have two Garmin Rinho 110's. I bought them to data link to ground. Air to
> ground range seems to be about 15 miles. I have not tested air to air range.
>
> The tracks will transfer to a lap top on the ground, but not in real time.(with
> standard garmin software)
>
> If anyone would like me to test anything specific let me know.
>

Is it legal to use them when they are transmitting air to air ? At least
in France, most frequencies used for ground to ground transmission are not
allowed to be used for air to air transmission.

[BTIZ]

> What kind of data do you wish to link to the ground?
>
> --

Let's the CFIG know where his solo student is.

BT

[Vaughn]

"Robert Ehrlich" > wrote in message
...
> Snead1 wrote:
> >
> > I have two Garmin Rinho 110's. I bought them to data link to ground. Air
to
> > ground range seems to be about 15 miles. I have not tested air to air
range.
> >
> > The tracks will transfer to a lap top on the ground, but not in real
time.(with
> > standard garmin software)
> >
> > If anyone would like me to test anything specific let me know.
> >
>
> Is it legal to use them when they are transmitting air to air ? At least
> in France, most frequencies used for ground to ground transmission are not
> allowed to be used for air to air transmission.

It is legal in the US unless there is a specific prohibition in the FCC
regulations for that particular radio service. I believe the Rinho uses the
unlicensed PCS frequencies which (since they are unlicensed) are virtually
ungovernable. Even if it were illegal, the FCC field offices are few and
undermanned and have far more pressing matters to attend to.

Vaughn

[Marc Ramsey]

Vaughn wrote:
> It is legal in the US unless there is a specific prohibition in the FCC
> regulations for that particular radio service. I believe the Rinho uses the
> unlicensed PCS frequencies which (since they are unlicensed) are virtually
> ungovernable. Even if it were illegal, the FCC field offices are few and
> undermanned and have far more pressing matters to attend to.

FYI, unlicensed does not mean unregulated. The Garmin Rino actually
uses the unlicensed FRS (Family Radio Service) frequencies, which are
designated in the applicable CFRs for voice services only, data
transmissions are explicitly prohibited. Garmin had to obtain a waiver
from the FCC to manufacture a device with data transmission capabilities
in this frequency range. Among other things, the FCC placed
restrictions on the type and repetition rate of position reports. This
waiver only applies to Garmin, anyone else attempting to manufacture a
similar device would have to negotiate another waiver...

Marc

[Andrew Henderson]

Seems like an excellent idea. If they could be made
to auto transmit position,say every 20 seconds, great!
Especially as you are only seeing whats in your area.
Great for pair flying and lead and follow.
Come on someone, have you tried this in the air?

Wish they were legal in the UK

Andy


At 04:36 02 May 2004, Martin Hellman wrote:
>With all the talk about anti-collision devices, I've
>been seriously
>looking at the Garmin Rino family (110, 120 and 130).
>These have been
>mentioned a few times on RAS, but no one reported any
>experience using
>them. Anyone out there use them? If so, I'd be interested
>in hearing
>your experience and which model you think makes the
>most sense and
>why. (Given that I have a Garmin 196, I expect I'd
>go with the 110 to
>save money, but maybe I'm missing something.)
>
>I realize Rino's would only be useful if the other
>glider has one, but
>that could have been the case in the recent midair
>since both gliders
>flew out of the same strip. Either everyone flying
>there could be
>encouraged to buy them ($150 for the 110) or the FBO
>could rent them.
>
>Thanks in advance for any help.
>
>Martin
>

[Vaughn]

"Marc Ramsey" > wrote in message
m...
> Vaughn wrote:
> > It is legal in the US unless there is a specific prohibition in the FCC
> > regulations for that particular radio service. I believe the Rinho uses the
> > unlicensed PCS frequencies which (since they are unlicensed) are virtually
> > ungovernable. Even if it were illegal, the FCC field offices are few and
> > undermanned and have far more pressing matters to attend to.
>
> FYI, unlicensed does not mean unregulated.

As a practical matter, at the user (not mfg.) level, the FRS is
unregulated. Just look at CB for an example. Hell, there are dozens of clearly
illegal pirate stations on the FM band here in Florida that are trivial to find,
yet some stay on the air for years at a time. The FCC is a very thin
organization.

>The Garmin Rino actually
> uses the unlicensed FRS (Family Radio Service) frequencies,

Yes, I ment to say FRS but somehow PCS slipped out of my keyboard.

> which are
> designated in the applicable CFRs for voice services only, data
> transmissions are explicitly prohibited. Garmin had to obtain a waiver
> from the FCC to manufacture a device with data transmission capabilities
> in this frequency range. Among other things, the FCC placed
> restrictions on the type and repetition rate of position reports. This
> waiver only applies to Garmin, anyone else attempting to manufacture a
> similar device would have to negotiate another waiver...

I didn't know that...thanks.

Vaughn


>
> Marc

[Marc Ramsey]

Andrew Henderson wrote:
> Seems like an excellent idea. If they could be made
> to auto transmit position,say every 20 seconds, great!
> Especially as you are only seeing whats in your area.
> Great for pair flying and lead and follow.
> Come on someone, have you tried this in the air?

The Rino can't be set to auto transmit every 20 seconds, as apparently
one of the FCC waiver restrictions was that position would only be
transmitted, once, each time the push-to-talk switch is pressed, or when
a manually entered location query is received from another unit.

Marc

[Martin Gregorie]

On Thu, 6 May 2004 16:49:51 -0700, "BTIZ" >
wrote:

>> What kind of data do you wish to link to the ground?
>>
>> --
>
>Let's the CFIG know where his solo student is.
>

They may not be suitable for that. I don't own one but I did read the
spec on the Garmin website.

The "data" is limited to the ID and position of the transmitting Rino
and will be displayed on any receiving Rino within range. However, it
will only send the information when the appropriate button is pressed:
there is explicitly no facility for automatic position transmission:
IIRC the FCC made that a condition for licensing the device.

My guess is that most instructors would rather that their student flew
the glider rather than remembering to push the Rino's send button
every so often.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

[Martin Hellman]

In my original post that started this thread, I talked about using the
Rino for "collision avoidance." Some private discussions have made me
realize I should have said "proximity warning". I wasn't suggesting
watching the Rino to tell when you were about to collide with the
other glider, but to tell you when to spend extra time LOOKING for
him.

Knowing when to spend extra time scanning -- with an extra shot of
adrenalin -- would probably have prevented the recent Washington
fatality. And reading the description by the surviving pilot, I can
see that I've been in similar situations several times. Flying with a
friend, we split up to try different areas of lift, can't see each
other, and aren't sure when we come back into danger range unless we
tie up 123.3 or 123.5 or some other frequency -- and even that isn't
possible sometimes due to others tying it up.

Martin

[Eric Greenwell]

Martin Hellman wrote:

> Knowing when to spend extra time scanning -- with an extra shot of
> adrenalin -- would probably have prevented the recent Washington
> fatality. And reading the description by the surviving pilot, I can
> see that I've been in similar situations several times. Flying with a
> friend, we split up to try different areas of lift, can't see each
> other, and aren't sure when we come back into danger range unless we
> tie up 123.3 or 123.5 or some other frequency -- and even that isn't
> possible sometimes due to others tying it up.

I suggest you use the radio in this situation. You and your friend are
so close, he'll hear you, even if another glider a few miles away is
transmitting. Better some unintentional noise on the frequency than the
noise of a collision.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Snead1]

The Rino transmits a position each time you transmit. If your unit is set up
to accept polls, you can poll your buddys unit without input from the other
unit. Polling is limited to one data position each 30 seconds. More data than
just the other units position comes with each data burst

Each unit will track up to 50 other units.

It is really quite sophisticated for $150.

I am interested in tracking (on the ground) several gliders racing around a lap
racing course.

Bill Snead
Georgetown Texas

[Snead1]

The data burst can or does contain information such as Direction, Elevatiion,
Timestamp, Location and enter notes up to 30 characters.

When a Rino 110 is hooked to a PC the polled units track can be plotted on a
map.

Bill Snead

[Martin Hellman]

Regarding Eric's comment below, if a glider pilot called on the radio
every time he lost sight of his flying buddy, he'd be drummed out of
the soaring community for over-use of the frequency -- especially in
areas like Minden where there are alot of other gliders. Even in less
crowded areas, if you're at high altitude, your radio signal will
interfere with other gliders over 100 miles away.

While we all agree that "Better some unintentional noise on the
frequency than the noise of a collision," the problem is that there
are literally thousands of times we lose sight of a buddy before a
collision occurs. I think that's what's so deadly about this
situation. It breeds a false sense of safety (aka complacency).

How many of us can truly say that he/she has called on the radio every
time they've lost sight of a friend -- especially when the last time
you saw him, he was half a mile away and headed away from you? But
that sounds like just what happened in Washington.

That's why I think we need to put some energy into several areas:

1. Getting more glider pilots to use the FRS or GMRS band for
air-to-air. Clearly useful for two or more flying buddies, but if
enough of us start to use it, we might be able to settle on a standard
"glider" or "aircraft" frequency, much as we now tryon 123.3 and 123.5
when we see another unknown glider.

2. Alternatively, getting more glider pilots to get their ham licenses
and use the 2 meter band for air-to-air communications. Opens up a lot
of frequencies and 2 meters is close enough to the aircraft band that
you can even use your COM antenna for the ham unit, with a relay to
switch between. (ICOM sells such a device.) Getting your license only
takes several hours of study of the Technician question pool,
accessible at

http://www.remote.arrl.org/arrlvec/pools.html

Make sure you use the current question pool, not an obsolete one or
one that is going into use a few months from now. (They change every
so often, maybe once every few years.) The times and locations for
taking ham exams is listed at

http://www.remote.arrl.org/arrlvec/examsearch.phtml

3. Getting flying buddies to use Rino's for proximity warning. Again,
if enough of us do that, we could settle on a standard frequency and
privacy code so we could pick each other up even when not known before
hand.

========
Eric Greenwell > wrote in message >...
> I suggest you use the radio in this situation. You and your friend are
> so close, he'll hear you, even if another glider a few miles away is
> transmitting. Better some unintentional noise on the frequency than the
> noise of a collision.

[Eric Greenwell]

Martin Hellman wrote:

> Regarding Eric's comment below, if a glider pilot called on the radio
> every time he lost sight of his flying buddy, he'd be drummed out of
> the soaring community for over-use of the frequency

I still say "do it". If you find yourself "doing it" often enough to be
drummed out of the soaring community, a better response might be to
change the way you fly together. Maybe that means flying farther apart
so the potential hazard is reduced, or maybe staying together, within
sight, instead of wandering apart.

> -- especially in
> areas like Minden where there are alot of other gliders. Even in less
> crowded areas, if you're at high altitude, your radio signal will
> interfere with other gliders over 100 miles away.

It might annoy, but it won't interfere that far away with their
"collision safety" transmissions to gliders that are nearby them. It
can, of course, interfere with their attempts to call distant gliders or
crew. They can mitigate the problem by fully squelching their radio, so
only closer radios are heard, and unsquelching to talk to distant radios
as needed.

I'm sure it's a much bigger problem in Minden than most places. The
preceding is suggested as a bridge during the transition to a better
solution, which might be the ham radios or Rhino units, as you mention
below.

>
> While we all agree that "Better some unintentional noise on the
> frequency than the noise of a collision," the problem is that there
> are literally thousands of times we lose sight of a buddy before a
> collision occurs. I think that's what's so deadly about this
> situation. It breeds a false sense of safety (aka complacency).
>
> How many of us can truly say that he/she has called on the radio every
> time they've lost sight of a friend -- especially when the last time
> you saw him, he was half a mile away and headed away from you? But
> that sounds like just what happened in Washington.
>
> That's why I think we need to put some energy into several areas:
>
> 1. Getting more glider pilots to use the FRS or GMRS band for
> air-to-air. Clearly useful for two or more flying buddies, but if
> enough of us start to use it, we might be able to settle on a standard
> "glider" or "aircraft" frequency, much as we now tryon 123.3 and 123.5
> when we see another unknown glider.
>
> 2. Alternatively, getting more glider pilots to get their ham licenses
> and use the 2 meter band for air-to-air communications. Opens up a lot
> of frequencies and 2 meters is close enough to the aircraft band that
> you can even use your COM antenna for the ham unit, with a relay to
> switch between. (ICOM sells such a device.) Getting your license only
> takes several hours of study of the Technician question pool,
> accessible at
>
> http://www.remote.arrl.org/arrlvec/pools.html
>
> Make sure you use the current question pool, not an obsolete one or
> one that is going into use a few months from now. (They change every
> so often, maybe once every few years.) The times and locations for
> taking ham exams is listed at
>
> http://www.remote.arrl.org/arrlvec/examsearch.phtml
>
> 3. Getting flying buddies to use Rino's for proximity warning. Again,
> if enough of us do that, we could settle on a standard frequency and
> privacy code so we could pick each other up even when not known before
> hand.
>
> ========
> Eric Greenwell > wrote in message >...
>
>>I suggest you use the radio in this situation. You and your friend are
>>so close, he'll hear you, even if another glider a few miles away is
>>transmitting. Better some unintentional noise on the frequency than the
>> noise of a collision.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA