Has Standard Class design peaked?

[Mark Brown]

Ok im really bored and I thoguht i would open a can
of worms..has Standard Class Design reached a plateau?
and if so where do we go from here?

[Derrick Steed]

Mark Brown wrote:
>Ok im really bored and I thoguht i would open a can
>of worms..has Standard Class Design reached a plateau?
>and if so where do we go from here

Well I guess it means that pilots will have to learn some decent amount of
skill instead buying a better glider to improve their results. Of course
there's always the latest version of the PDA flight director software to
tell you when to push/pull/bank/go there/at that speed/or whatever, etc...

One pilot over here followed his PDA during a competition final glide even
to the point of hitting a tree. The logical answer to that one was that he
hadn't programmed the location of the tree into the map drawing software.

Rgds,

Derrick.

[Shawn Curry]

Mark Brown wrote:

> Ok im really bored and I thoguht i would open a can
> of worms..has Standard Class Design reached a plateau?
> and if so where do we go from here?
>
>
Yes?
The way (most) composite sailplanes are made, wet hand layup of cloth,
is ancient history in composite fabrication. Some newer material
technology like the pre-preg cloth construction of the Sparrowhawk (and
Duckhawk I assume?) and the carbon rod spar of the Genesis are a couple
examples of how new designers are wait.......here it comes.....
Breaking the Mold! Thank you , thank you. :-)
Also, technology in sail making can custom weave a sail on a mold thread
by thread (more or less). Could a glider fusalage be spun out on a
mold? dunno. Also, the new Eclipse mini-busjet uses a high tech
welding technique for its aluminum skin, eliminating rivets (or at least
a lot of them).
These new fabrication techniques can reduce limitations set by materials
and weight (but probably not cost. )-: ). If a thinner airfoil is
better, but couldn't be constructed using old techniques, new materials
can make it possible. In some cases perhaps construction could be made
less expensive. Haven't heard of any big advances in making the smooth
surface required by laminar flow, without lots of sanding, but only a
ludite would tell you it can't be done. Not big incentive on the part
of the manufacturers to change. Maybe the Duckhawk or Diana II will
start shaking the old men awake :-)

Shawn

[Arnie]

"Mark Brown" > wrote in message
...
> Ok im really bored and I thoguht i would open a can
> of worms..has Standard Class Design reached a plateau?
> and if so where do we go from here?
>

What makes you think it has ?

[Mark Brown]

Obviously not the same reasons that make you think
it hasnt ;-)!

At 18:54 02 May 2004, Arnie wrote:
>'Mark Brown' wrote in message
...
>> Ok im really bored and I thoguht i would open a can
>> of worms..has Standard Class Design reached a plateau?
>> and if so where do we go from here?
>>
>
>What makes you think it has ?
>
>
>

[F.L. Whiteley]

"Shawn Curry" > wrote in message
...
> Mark Brown wrote:
>
> > Ok im really bored and I thoguht i would open a can
> > of worms..has Standard Class Design reached a plateau?
> > and if so where do we go from here?
> >
> >
> Yes?
> The way (most) composite sailplanes are made, wet hand layup of cloth,
> is ancient history in composite fabrication. Some newer material
> technology like the pre-preg cloth construction of the Sparrowhawk (and
> Duckhawk I assume?) and the carbon rod spar of the Genesis are a couple
> examples of how new designers are wait.......here it comes.
Anyone care to comment if these light pre-preg composites are repairable if
damaged?

> Breaking the Mold! Thank you , thank you. :-)
> Also, technology in sail making can custom weave a sail on a mold thread
> by thread (more or less). Could a glider fusalage be spun out on a
> mold? dunno. Also, the new Eclipse mini-busjet uses a high tech
> welding technique for its aluminum skin, eliminating rivets (or at least
> a lot of them).
Ever seen Rutan's Boomerang? Been done, in Montrose IIRC. Filament winding
composite structures like a glider fuselage would likely take several
uninterrupted hours, given the nature of the method. Can't stop once you've
started. But it's certainly doable.

>These new fabrication techniques can reduce limitations set by materials
> and weight (but probably not cost. )-: ). If a thinner airfoil is
> better, but couldn't be constructed using old techniques, new materials
> can make it possible. In some cases perhaps construction could be made
> less expensive. Haven't heard of any big advances in making the smooth
> surface required by laminar flow, without lots of sanding, but only a
> ludite would tell you it can't be done. Not big incentive on the part
> of the manufacturers to change. Maybe the Duckhawk or Diana II will
> start shaking the old men awake :-)
>
At the Diana 2 talk at the SSA convention, the question was asked that if
someone damaged the structure of a Diana 2 wing, could it be repaired at one
of the regular repair stations. The reply was no, with the caveat that if
the glider is very successful in sales, such a repair service could be made
available in North America, perhaps. The potential impact on insurance
coverage might be substantial. Some of the research behind the Diana 2 has
involved the ideas, methods, and review of some of those old men BTW.

Maybe the Cole's can comment on the Sparrowhawk's repairability.

Frank Whiteley
Colorado

[Eric Greenwell]

F.L. Whiteley wrote:
>>The way (most) composite sailplanes are made, wet hand layup of cloth,
>>is ancient history in composite fabrication. Some newer material
>>technology like the pre-preg cloth construction of the Sparrowhawk (and
>>Duckhawk I assume?) and the carbon rod spar of the Genesis are a couple
>>examples of how new designers are wait.......here it comes.
>
> Anyone care to comment if these light pre-preg composites are repairable if
> damaged?

According to Greg Cole, it's not a problem. He went into a bit of detail
with me a few months ago, but I don't remember them well enough to pass
it on. Wet layup repairs can be made up to a point, as I recall. Of
course, the factory should be contacted first for the proper methods.
Every composite component is laid up in a mold and assemblies are done
in jigs, so you could buy replacement parts, even a wing, and have it fit.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[F.L. Whiteley]

"Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
...
> F.L. Whiteley wrote:
> >>The way (most) composite sailplanes are made, wet hand layup of cloth,
> >>is ancient history in composite fabrication. Some newer material
> >>technology like the pre-preg cloth construction of the Sparrowhawk (and
> >>Duckhawk I assume?) and the carbon rod spar of the Genesis are a couple
> >>examples of how new designers are wait.......here it comes.
> >
> > Anyone care to comment if these light pre-preg composites are repairable
if
> > damaged?
>
> According to Greg Cole, it's not a problem. He went into a bit of detail
> with me a few months ago, but I don't remember them well enough to pass
> it on. Wet layup repairs can be made up to a point, as I recall. Of
> course, the factory should be contacted first for the proper methods.
> Every composite component is laid up in a mold and assemblies are done
> in jigs, so you could buy replacement parts, even a wing, and have it fit.
>
> --
That's partly the point, Eric.

"Ring, ring, I've dinged my wing."
"No problem, we have a new wing, what color?"
"Ka-ching!"

Old style $3000 repair is suddenly an $8000 replacement (thinking
Sparrowhawk price arena). Parts are cooked in an autoclave IIRC. Just
scarfing these would seem exceedingly difficult. As far as repairing
structural damage to a filament wound structure, I think that's probably not
very likely other than for minor issues. Doesn't mean methods can't be
developed, but I don't think they are fielded yet. I know folks who've done
outstanding work with wet layup GRP and CF repairs, arriving within ounces
of the original weight with essentially totaled gliders, but it's not quite
the same thing and probably ends somewhere between patching a hole and a
structural splice.

I supposed we'll find out before long.

Frank

[Eric Greenwell]

F.L. Whiteley wrote:
>
>>>damaged?
>>
>>According to Greg Cole, it's not a problem. He went into a bit of detail
>>with me a few months ago, but I don't remember them well enough to pass
>>it on. Wet layup repairs can be made up to a point, as I recall. Of
>>course, the factory should be contacted first for the proper methods.
>>Every composite component is laid up in a mold and assemblies are done
>>in jigs, so you could buy replacement parts, even a wing, and have it fit.
>>
>>--
>
> That's partly the point, Eric.
>
> "Ring, ring, I've dinged my wing."
> "No problem, we have a new wing, what color?"
> "Ka-ching!"

Well, trash a wing on a German glider, and try to buy a replacement from
the factory. I wasn't suggesting you have to replace a "dinged" wing,
as they are easily (according to Greg) repaired. Perhaps I wasn't clear,
so let's try again: not everything can be repaired, or the repair is so
involved, it's better/cheaper to replace it (broken spars often fall in
this category). If so, you aren't out of luck, because you can buy a
replacement.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Robertmudd1u]

>.has Standard Class Design reached a plateau?
> and if so where do we go from here?

While othewrs had argue the merits of various building methods these do not
directly offer any performance improvments. Given the size of most of the
production runs I would look at vacuum infusion for wetting out the cloth.

Aerodynamically the place to go is reflexed airfoils. Note: I did not say
flying wings. Reflexed airfoils can operate quite well on tailed gliders and
this configuration offers many pratical benifits.

Robert Mudd

[Udo Rumpf]

> While othewrs had argue the merits of various building methods these do
not
> directly offer any performance improvments. Given the size of most of the
> production runs I would look at vacuum infusion for wetting out the cloth.
>
> Aerodynamically the place to go is reflexed airfoils. Note: I did not say
> flying wings. Reflexed airfoils can operate quite well on tailed gliders
and
> this configuration offers many pratical benifits.
>
> Robert Mudd

Robert
The ASW27 uses a reflex airfoil.
Udo

[JJ Sinclair]

>Aerodynamically the place to go is reflexed airfoils.

Hi Robert,
Is the reflexed airfoil on the Genesis 2, the reason she runs so good? Does the
reflex act like up flaps, in the run?


JJ Sinclair

[Bob Salvo]

>Reflexed airfoils can operate quite well on tailed gliders and
>this configuration offers many pratical benifits.

Unfortunately, though, reflexed airfoils, that I have seen, are all very
sensitive to rain, bugs, and turbulence. Can't rely on their published L/D in
the real world.
Bob

[Eric Greenwell]

Bob Salvo wrote:

>>Reflexed airfoils can operate quite well on tailed gliders and
>>this configuration offers many pratical benifits.
>
>
> Unfortunately, though, reflexed airfoils, that I have seen, are all very
> sensitive to rain, bugs, and turbulence. Can't rely on their published L/D in
> the real world.
> Bob

But reflexed airfoils are used by modern flapped "racing gliders"
without these problems (ASW 27, Ventus 2, etc) in cruise. The problem
for the Standard Class is to get good climb out of the reflexed airfoil
without diminishing the high speed ability too much.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Robertmudd1u]

>Is the reflexed airfoil on the Genesis 2, the reason she runs so good? Does
>the
>reflex act like up flaps, in the run?

JJ, I do not know. But given your work with the Salvo mod and the success you
have had in the recent contest and other compairson flying you may have a more
educated guess than I do.

Robert

[mat Redsell]

JJ Sinclair,

The best way to get an advantage with a reflexed airfoil is to move the CG
forward wtih a sliding weight. Both the Mqrske Pioneer IId and PioneerIII
have them installed and will begin testing in the near future.

The drag bucket will favor the lower CL's when the weight is put forward and
the elevator on a marske wing is put in the up position. We found this to
be very true in our tests with the Monarch.

-mat
--
Marske Flying Wings
http://www.continuo.com/marske


"JJ Sinclair" > wrote in message
...
> >Aerodynamically the place to go is reflexed airfoils.
>
> Hi Robert,
> Is the reflexed airfoil on the Genesis 2, the reason she runs so good?
Does the
> reflex act like up flaps, in the run?
>
>
> JJ Sinclair