TOW PLANE Accident

[Richard Garrity]

Skyline Soaring Club has suffered a tragic loss of a member in the crash of our tow plane. The accident occurred on October 7th while towing an ASK21.. The glider released at very low altitude and returned safely to the airport. The NTSB is investigating and factual information is shown on their web site. Our flight operations resumed on October 21st after a Safety Meeting and a club Memorial at our hangar. Our sport has its own hazards and we must be constantly vigilant! Skyline Soaring with the strength of its 100+ members will continue with its mission to support soaring! The Club is reaching out to all in our community for any assistance in replacing our tow plane. We know that word of mouth is the best way to hear of a suitable tow plane that maybe becoming available. Your thoughts and ideas will be appreciated. Please contact me directly by phone or email. Thank you...

Dick Garrity
SSC Board Member
410 268 7069

[OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

Very, very sad and I feel for the family, membership, and others that are having to deal with this unfortunate tragedy.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20171007X53946&AKey=1&RType=Prelim&IType=FA

[2G]

On Tuesday, October 31, 2017 at 12:38:34 PM UTC-7, Richard Garrity wrote:
> Skyline Soaring Club has suffered a tragic loss of a member in the crash of our tow plane. The accident occurred on October 7th while towing an ASK21. The glider released at very low altitude and returned safely to the airport. The NTSB is investigating and factual information is shown on their web site. Our flight operations resumed on October 21st after a Safety Meeting and a club Memorial at our hangar. Our sport has its own hazards and we must be constantly vigilant! Skyline Soaring with the strength of its 100+ members will continue with its mission to support soaring! The Club is reaching out to all in our community for any assistance in replacing our tow plane. We know that word of mouth is the best way to hear of a suitable tow plane that maybe becoming available. Your thoughts and ideas will be appreciated. Please contact me directly by phone or email. Thank you...
>
> Dick Garrity
> SSC Board Member
> 410 268 7069
>

There were a couple of Pawnees for sale in Ely, NV. I do not know their current status. Try calling 775-289-8804 Manager: Tim Parish

Tom

[Paul Agnew]

NTSB Report

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20171007X53946&ntsbno=ERA18FA006&akey=1

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

My take after reading the NTSB report is the glider pilot looked away to adjust a GoPro, Got High on the tow early and drove the tug into the ground.
Does this sound correct?
God Damn it. These are easily preventable accidents.
Killing Tow Pilots like this is very bad form.
When I was towing I'd look pilots in the eye that I didn't know and say " If you get high on me your getting rope, immediately." Got it?

[Tango Eight]

On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 7:59:06 PM UTC-5, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> My take after reading the NTSB report is the glider pilot looked away to adjust a GoPro, Got High on the tow early and drove the tug into the ground..
> Does this sound correct?
> God Damn it. These are easily preventable accidents.
> Killing Tow Pilots like this is very bad form.
> When I was towing I'd look pilots in the eye that I didn't know and say " If you get high on me your getting rope, immediately." Got it?

I got angry reading that report. I channeled that into a calm, cool, pointed email note to my club entitled "Don't Kill Your Tow Pilot". The ensuing discussion is satisfying.

I know this much for certain: I never want to be the subject of, or accessory to, or close friends of anyone involved an accident like that.

What I've discovered as an instructor... my pre-solo students have no issues keeping focused on tow, and the real pros don't have any issues, either. "Pro" in this case means (roughly speaking) > 1000 hrs in gliders. The guys in the middle though... virtually all will fiddle with something below 500' once in three flights. Radio. Vents. Vario. Camera. Water bottle. Changing glasses. Drives me nuts. One glider instructor (not a tow pilot) tried to argue with me that it was okay to fiddle with the panel!! God damnit, you have ONE job: fly in safe formation with your tug. This accident goes in the same file with that rating-collector instructor at Sugarbush that killed his commercial ride passenger and two aircraft trying to close an unsecured canopy on tow. One wonders why we grant CFI-Gs to guys with 100 hrs in gliders, but that's another rant.

It's probable that anyone that does anything other than fly the tow on a Spring check ride or BFR with me going forward will earn themselves an extra tow in addition to a pointed critique. Club President already refers to me as the "big bad wolf", why disappoint?

Take off/departure accidents seem very preventable. I've made it my job to work on such prevention at my club and it has, at times, caused me to be unpopular. Checklist discipline & cockpit discipline at both ends of the rope save lives. Do it. Let's see if we can get through 2019 with fewer than our running average of 6 USA gliding related fatalities.

Evan Ludeman / T8

[Charles Longley]

Wow that really sucks!

[Jim White[_3_]]

I am always concerned when I see a camera in the cockpit. The temptation to
be film director as well as pilot is too great. We are only able to apply
full focus to one task at a time. Especially important at critical points
of the flight like the tow, thermalling, circuit, and landing.

At Booker we had a bad accident when a passenger's camera was dropped in
the works. I will not fly passengers holding cameras.

If this accident is as we suspect, then this was totally avoidable and
there would be one more tuggie about.

Jim

[Bob Youngblood]

On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 10:11:35 PM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 7:59:06 PM UTC-5, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> > My take after reading the NTSB report is the glider pilot looked away to adjust a GoPro, Got High on the tow early and drove the tug into the ground.
> > Does this sound correct?
> > God Damn it. These are easily preventable accidents.
> > Killing Tow Pilots like this is very bad form.
> > When I was towing I'd look pilots in the eye that I didn't know and say " If you get high on me your getting rope, immediately." Got it?
>
> I got angry reading that report. I channeled that into a calm, cool, pointed email note to my club entitled "Don't Kill Your Tow Pilot". The ensuing discussion is satisfying.
>
> I know this much for certain: I never want to be the subject of, or accessory to, or close friends of anyone involved an accident like that.
>
> What I've discovered as an instructor... my pre-solo students have no issues keeping focused on tow, and the real pros don't have any issues, either.. "Pro" in this case means (roughly speaking) > 1000 hrs in gliders. The guys in the middle though... virtually all will fiddle with something below 500' once in three flights. Radio. Vents. Vario. Camera. Water bottle. Changing glasses. Drives me nuts. One glider instructor (not a tow pilot) tried to argue with me that it was okay to fiddle with the panel!! God damnit, you have ONE job: fly in safe formation with your tug. This accident goes in the same file with that rating-collector instructor at Sugarbush that killed his commercial ride passenger and two aircraft trying to close an unsecured canopy on tow. One wonders why we grant CFI-Gs to guys with 100 hrs in gliders, but that's another rant.
>
> It's probable that anyone that does anything other than fly the tow on a Spring check ride or BFR with me going forward will earn themselves an extra tow in addition to a pointed critique. Club President already refers to me as the "big bad wolf", why disappoint?
>
> Take off/departure accidents seem very preventable. I've made it my job to work on such prevention at my club and it has, at times, caused me to be unpopular. Checklist discipline & cockpit discipline at both ends of the rope save lives. Do it. Let's see if we can get through 2019 with fewer than our running average of 6 USA gliding related fatalities.
>
> Evan Ludeman / T8

This is IMHO good info and should be expanded on during the training process for new glider pilots. I have been flying gliders for a long time, have seen things that would make you shake your head and wonder how in the hell did that happen. There may be more to this accident than we realize, the medical issues surely come into play. More importantly the camera deal was very disturbing, I had heard that there were 7 seconds during the flight that the camera was not operational and then came back on. I hope this was not the case but even one second is too many. Keep the stupid GOPRO out of the cockpit.
We have told people not to use GOPRO cameras in the cockpit, the PIC should not be using a Camera during tow. We do allow people doing introductory rides to use cameras, but no pilots in command.
The instructors should put more emphasis in the training process toward no obstruction tow emphasis. I have seen a very good instructor while doing a BFR ask the pilot to look down and see the object on the ground, only not to have any object there. The emphasis was to evaluate what the pilot did on tow. Thinks like this should be done in training flights especially with new glider pilots. I commend you for sending the message to your club members, I think I will have a sign made that says, Don't Kill Your Tow Pilot, and place it in plain view in the hangar. I am sure someone will ask the stupid question, "What Does That Mean"!

[Tango Eight]

On Thursday, February 21, 2019 at 6:30:45 AM UTC-5, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 10:11:35 PM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 7:59:06 PM UTC-5, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> > > My take after reading the NTSB report is the glider pilot looked away to adjust a GoPro, Got High on the tow early and drove the tug into the ground.
> > > Does this sound correct?
> > > God Damn it. These are easily preventable accidents.
> > > Killing Tow Pilots like this is very bad form.
> > > When I was towing I'd look pilots in the eye that I didn't know and say " If you get high on me your getting rope, immediately." Got it?
> >
> > I got angry reading that report. I channeled that into a calm, cool, pointed email note to my club entitled "Don't Kill Your Tow Pilot". The ensuing discussion is satisfying.
> >
> > I know this much for certain: I never want to be the subject of, or accessory to, or close friends of anyone involved an accident like that.
> >
> > What I've discovered as an instructor... my pre-solo students have no issues keeping focused on tow, and the real pros don't have any issues, either. "Pro" in this case means (roughly speaking) > 1000 hrs in gliders. The guys in the middle though... virtually all will fiddle with something below 500' once in three flights. Radio. Vents. Vario. Camera. Water bottle. Changing glasses. Drives me nuts. One glider instructor (not a tow pilot) tried to argue with me that it was okay to fiddle with the panel!! God damnit, you have ONE job: fly in safe formation with your tug. This accident goes in the same file with that rating-collector instructor at Sugarbush that killed his commercial ride passenger and two aircraft trying to close an unsecured canopy on tow. One wonders why we grant CFI-Gs to guys with 100 hrs in gliders, but that's another rant.
> >
> > It's probable that anyone that does anything other than fly the tow on a Spring check ride or BFR with me going forward will earn themselves an extra tow in addition to a pointed critique. Club President already refers to me as the "big bad wolf", why disappoint?
> >
> > Take off/departure accidents seem very preventable. I've made it my job to work on such prevention at my club and it has, at times, caused me to be unpopular. Checklist discipline & cockpit discipline at both ends of the rope save lives. Do it. Let's see if we can get through 2019 with fewer than our running average of 6 USA gliding related fatalities.
> >
> > Evan Ludeman / T8
>
> This is IMHO good info and should be expanded on during the training process for new glider pilots. I have been flying gliders for a long time, have seen things that would make you shake your head and wonder how in the hell did that happen. There may be more to this accident than we realize, the medical issues surely come into play. More importantly the camera deal was very disturbing, I had heard that there were 7 seconds during the flight that the camera was not operational and then came back on. I hope this was not the case but even one second is too many. Keep the stupid GOPRO out of the cockpit.
> We have told people not to use GOPRO cameras in the cockpit, the PIC should not be using a Camera during tow. We do allow people doing introductory rides to use cameras, but no pilots in command.
> The instructors should put more emphasis in the training process toward no obstruction tow emphasis. I have seen a very good instructor while doing a BFR ask the pilot to look down and see the object on the ground, only not to have any object there. The emphasis was to evaluate what the pilot did on tow. Thinks like this should be done in training flights especially with new glider pilots. I commend you for sending the message to your club members, I think I will have a sign made that says, Don't Kill Your Tow Pilot, and place it in plain view in the hangar. I am sure someone will ask the stupid question, "What Does That Mean"!

I'm conditionally okay with cockpit video. Requirements are solid mounting and PIC treating as a passive recording device during critical phases of flight. The upside is that you can learn quite a lot of useful stuff on the replay. I used to good effect to grind some bad habits out of my own flying and I know others do the same.

best,
Evan

[Dave Walsh[_2_]]

...and another question: why do so many YouTube videos show the
glider pilot on tow NOT holding the release knob?
In fact it's hard to find a video where the glider pilot does hold the
release throughout the tow!
In a flapped machine that might require a flap change during the
initial stages of the launch it's understandable, perhaps for a few
seconds, but even after the flap change no one ever seems to hold
the release knob.
In the dim and distant past when I was taught aerotows they was
certain to be very loud angry noises from the rear seat if one let go
of the yellow knob. Has something changed in the instructor
manual?
Dave Walsh

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:02:56 +0000, Dave Walsh wrote:

> ..and another question: why do so many YouTube videos show the glider
> pilot on tow NOT holding the release knob?
> In fact it's hard to find a video where the glider pilot does hold the
> release throughout the tow!
> In a flapped machine that might require a flap change during the initial
> stages of the launch it's understandable, perhaps for a few seconds, but
> even after the flap change no one ever seems to hold the release knob.
> In the dim and distant past when I was taught aerotows they was certain
> to be very loud angry noises from the rear seat if one let go of the
> yellow knob. Has something changed in the instructor manual?
> Dave Walsh

Agreed.

Two seaters or single seaters and winching or aerotowing, when I'm in
control my left hand is holding the yellow knob from 'taking up slack' to
release.

That's what I was taught and that's what I do. No reason to do otherwise
in our club two-seaters and Juniors or my Libelle.

My only exception has been when moving flaps from negative to zero when
the ailerons bite in an ASW-20 on aero tow, but even then its hand back
on yellow knob right away.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[BobW]

>> Take off/departure accidents seem very preventable. I've made it my job
>> to work on such prevention at my club and it has, at times, caused me to
>> be unpopular. Checklist discipline & cockpit discipline at both ends of
>> the rope save lives. Do it. Let's see if we can get through 2019 with
>> fewer than our running average of 6 USA gliding related fatalities.
>>
>> Evan Ludeman / T8
>
> <Snip...> I commend you for sending the message to your club
> members, I think I will have a sign made that says, Don't Kill Your Tow
> Pilot, and place it in plain view in the hangar. I am sure someone will ask
> the stupid question, "What Does That Mean"!

My first thought-betting-nickel upon reading the NTSB report was,
"Stupidly-preventable-never-shoulda-happened-PIC-assisted-fatality."

Lotsa other thoughts, of course (e.g. Glad I'm not that instructor
*regardless* of actual reason(s) for the crash [feel free to invoke the
ever-ready 'age' rationale, here]. Thanks, NTSB, for the seasonal timeliness
of the reminder! Etc.)

And at the risk of being labeled a Safety Nazi, post that sign in the hangar!
Anyone who seriously asks, "What does that mean?" isn't asking a stupid
question. Others? Well, the continuing, sad, arguably-entirely-preventable,
deplorable history of tuggees killing tuggIES isn't a club anyone with an
ounce of common sense will want to join.

In any event, surely this topic is a discussion that should never be far from
active awareness in every glider pilot's mind...

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[Waveguru]

I have a long talk with my students about doing nothing else during the first 1000' of the tow except focus on the tow plane, and emergency options. Then, during the first 1000' I ask them to toggle the radio. Then I YELL at them for doing it, and we have another long discussion during post flight about killing tow pilots. I repeat this until they do nothing except focus on the tow plane, and emergence options.
Also, I disagree with holding the release during tow. Turbulence can cause a premature termination of the tow if you are holding the release.

Boggs

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

I don't hang onto the release during tow.
I never taught to hang onto the release during tow.
In glass ships, we have a looped rope tied to the release and laid across our thigh to make a quick release easier.

Why no holding the release? Many things.....
A sneeze can pull it
Turbulence can pull it
Something sudden (like a bee/wasp flying around) can pull it

You do your thing, I'll do mine.
;-)

[Roy B.]

Going back to the original purpose of this posting (help finding a towplane), there is a '76 Pawnee 235 for sale in Canada set up as a sprayer. Low time since overhaul. Expensive. Listed on Barnstormers.
Good luck.
ROY

[Tango Eight]

On Thursday, February 21, 2019 at 9:15:04 AM UTC-5, Dave Walsh wrote:
> ..and another question: why do so many YouTube videos show the
> glider pilot on tow NOT holding the release knob?
> In fact it's hard to find a video where the glider pilot does hold the
> release throughout the tow!
> In a flapped machine that might require a flap change during the
> initial stages of the launch it's understandable, perhaps for a few
> seconds, but even after the flap change no one ever seems to hold
> the release knob.
> In the dim and distant past when I was taught aerotows they was
> certain to be very loud angry noises from the rear seat if one let go
> of the yellow knob. Has something changed in the instructor
> manual?
> Dave Walsh

Hanging on the release during aero tow is a bad practice. There's a newspaper article from 6 or 8 years ago featuring an unhappy glider pilot sitting in the wreckage of his Discus too high up in a sycamore tree to do anything other than wait for help. Yep, hung on the release, big bump, popped off much too low to do anything other than pick the tree he wanted to crash into. That one's in the ntsb database if you want to look it up. New York state.

Hand touching, but not grasping the release is acceptable. Hand touching release at beginning of take off roll is desirable, especially if without a wing runner. A lot of ships place other demands on left hand.

Winching is a completely different game. In a properly run winching op, an inadvertent release should never be an emergency, but a dropped wing is immediately life threatening, hence hand on the release is the norm. It's a fact of life that in many aero towing operations, an inadvertent release at 50 - 150' will be an emergency.

best,
Evan

[Jonathon May]

At 14:30 21 February 2019, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>On Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:02:56 +0000, Dave Walsh wrote:
>
>> ..and another question: why do so many YouTube videos show the glider
>> pilot on tow NOT holding the release knob?
>> In fact it's hard to find a video where the glider pilot does hold the
>> release throughout the tow!
>> In a flapped machine that might require a flap change during the
initial
>> stages of the launch it's understandable, perhaps for a few seconds,
but
>> even after the flap change no one ever seems to hold the release knob.
>> In the dim and distant past when I was taught aerotows they was certain
>> to be very loud angry noises from the rear seat if one let go of the
>> yellow knob. Has something changed in the instructor manual?
>> Dave Walsh
>
>Agreed.
>
>Two seaters or single seaters and winching or aerotowing, when I'm in
>control my left hand is holding the yellow knob from 'taking up slack' to

>release.
>
>That's what I was taught and that's what I do. No reason to do otherwise
>in our club two-seaters and Juniors or my Libelle.
>
>My only exception has been when moving flaps from negative to zero when
>the ailerons bite in an ASW-20 on aero tow, but even then its hand back
>on yellow knob right away.
>
>
>--
>Martin | martin at

you need an extended release cable or a piece of line on it so you can hook
it over your hand.
Can't change flap setting otherwise,and you can get in a position with the
stick hard over where you can't get to the handle in discus/ventus type
layout.
>Gregorie | gregorie dot org
>

[Dan Marotta]

I have never regretted my decision to retire from towing.

Recently a good friend started to tow and he asked me for advice.Â* I
told him, "Don't let them kill you!Â* Stay alert and release the glider
at the first sign that the pilot is not in control of the glider."

On 2/21/2019 1:52 AM, Jim White wrote:
> I am always concerned when I see a camera in the cockpit. The temptation to
> be film director as well as pilot is too great. We are only able to apply
> full focus to one task at a time. Especially important at critical points
> of the flight like the tow, thermalling, circuit, and landing.
>
> At Booker we had a bad accident when a passenger's camera was dropped in
> the works. I will not fly passengers holding cameras.
>
> If this accident is as we suspect, then this was totally avoidable and
> there would be one more tuggie about.
>
> Jim
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Vaughn Simon[_2_]]

On 2/21/2019 10:13 AM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> I don't hang onto the release during tow.
> I never taught to hang onto the release during tow.

I wasn't taught to hold the release during tow, and I don't teach that
to my students. You are more far likely to cause an accident that way
(through PTT) than to ever prevent one.

That said! Every glider pilot should give serious thought to the
position of the left hand during (especially) early tow. Depending on
your glider and its cockpit ergonomics, the answer will not always be
the same. Myself, particularly in 2-place gliders, I often have my
closed fist firmly behind the spoiler handle. (Never with fingers
wrapped around it, because that could also lead to a PTT) This ensure
that the spoilers can't accidentally open, while at the same time
anchoring my hand near the release so that I can instantly grab it if
necessary.

YMMV

By all means, let's do whatever it takes to keep our tow pilots alive!

Vaughn


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[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Thu, 21 Feb 2019 16:11:22 +0000, Jonathon May wrote:

> you need an extended release cable or a piece of line on it so you can
> hook it over your hand.
>
Fair comment. My Libelle has a fairly long release cable so my hand is
resting on my leg with fingers loosely round the knob. Cable is slack and
hand supported by leg.

Juniors are also good: arm supported on the cockpit rail with fingers on
top of, but not round, the T-bar release. Needs little more than closing
fingers to pull the release.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

In general (likely 98%) I agree with you.
I, and others, lost a friend maybe 30 years ago in NJ with a squirrel on the back end and a friend on the front end.
Friend tried to save the tow (in a L-19 IIRC, not a wimpy towplane), I went to his wake.........

I believe the mantra to our towpilots is, "you get near a control limit while on tow, dump the glider......period.....".
I remember being the PIC (ride, training, don't remember....) in a 2-33, maybe 300' above field and sorta close.
I felt the tow get soft, I elected to abort and go and land.
Towpilot stated later, "I ran a tank dry, I was running in seconds!".
My comment, "you fly your ship, I fly mine.....with me gone, you have one less thing to worry about and your performance is better!"
So, we ate another tow. Big Frikkin deal......I would have happily paid for gas/time on the TP.
We still had 2 flying ships (and a little wasted time) and continued the day with no drama.

Yes, reading the NTSB report sounds like an issue on the glider end and the TP didn't bail early enough. From "facts", this was preventable.
I do not know anyone involved in this, sucks for everyone, site, family, anyone that finds this thread or report.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

I do NOT do or teach keeping a hand on the release during tow. In anything........
Never.
In several glass ships I fly (mostly AS.....) we may have a loop of rope on the release to make a bigger target.....yes, I stated that before.

[[email protected]]

Well, that was a tragic NTSB report to read. Aside from sterile cockpit, I'm thinking a lesson may be to slightly adjust CB SIT CBE.

Ballast already includes verifying the tail wheel is off.
Emergency needs to look at and touch the Yellow handle.

[George Haeh]

Cameras have become one more enticing temptation to fiddle with something on tow. I know of one premature release on tow when the pilot intended to adjust the rudder pedals. The result was an expensive tailboom repair. Fortunately no injuries.

Below 1000' Don't fiddle with anything but trim.

Exceptions:
the flaps are set wrong
the spoilers have come out

[150flivver]

I've been towing a number of years (3000+ tows). I ask every new glider student what's the number one rule on aerotow. They better answer: "Don't kill your tow pilot." The one time someone (very experienced glider pilot and CFIG) kited on me on tow, the negative g's plastered me against the ceiling of the towplane and I physically could not reach the tow release handle on the floor. If it had occurred a couple of hundred feet above the ground I would not have recovered. The pilot said he was momentarily distracted and looked away from the towplane. It doesn't take but a few seconds and no one is immune...

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, October 31, 2017 at 1:38:34 PM UTC-6, Richard Garrity wrote:
> Skyline Soaring Club has suffered a tragic loss of a member in the crash of our tow plane. The accident occurred on October 7th while towing an ASK21. The glider released at very low altitude and returned safely to the airport. The NTSB is investigating and factual information is shown on their web site. Our flight operations resumed on October 21st after a Safety Meeting and a club Memorial at our hangar. Our sport has its own hazards and we must be constantly vigilant! Skyline Soaring with the strength of its 100+ members will continue with its mission to support soaring! The Club is reaching out to all in our community for any assistance in replacing our tow plane. We know that word of mouth is the best way to hear of a suitable tow plane that maybe becoming available. Your thoughts and ideas will be appreciated. Please contact me directly by phone or email. Thank you...
>
> Dick Garrity
> SSC Board Member
> 410 268 7069
>

Dick:

Although I understand when you say a 1000hr pilot is a pro, I take exception to the description. Being a professional pilot has far more to do with the attitude and discipline one takes with them into the cockpit. I've flown (as a CFI) with low time students who are totally focused on the relationship between them selves and the tow plane. I also tell my new tow pilots (as the chief tow pilot) the last thing you should do before moving the power lever to the maximum enthusiasm position is to review what you will do in the event of an untoward move by the glider pilot and last to look at the tow rope release lever before departing.

[Charlie Quebec]

Exactly why we use low tow as much as possible in Australia. Ive never done a high tow. I cannot see any good reason to high tow.
That said, there are other factors in the report, age and a heart condition. Perhaps you lot would be better to stop second guessing and pushing your opinions
over this tragedy.

[Soartech]

On Thursday, February 21, 2019 at 10:13:06 AM UTC-5, Charlie M. wrote:

> I don't hang onto the release during tow.
> I never taught to hang onto the release during tow.
> In glass ships, we have a looped rope tied to the release and laid across our thigh to make a quick release easier.

I totally agree with this and use the looped cord! My release "knob" is a small diameter sphere and it too easily has slipped from my grasp.
Thanks, Charlie for pointing out the best course of action here.

[John Foster]

On Saturday, February 23, 2019 at 10:22:10 PM UTC-7, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> Exactly why we use low tow as much as possible in Australia. Ive never done a high tow. I cannot see any good reason to high tow.
> That said, there are other factors in the report, age and a heart condition. Perhaps you lot would be better to stop second guessing and pushing your opinions
> over this tragedy.

We infrequently do low tow here in the US. High tow keeps the tow plane on the horizon, at the same level as you. If you are doing a long tow cross country though, then low tow is used more frequently here. There are also different hazards to the low tow position, so what you save on one hand, you give up with the other.

As to the mention of heart condition in the report, it did mention he had coronary plaque build-up. But none of these were sufficient to cause a heart attack. No no evidence for a heart attack was found on the autopsy. He did have a big heart though, but that is unlikely to have caused a sudden incapacitation of the tow pilot.

The bottom line from this report, is that the glider pilot was distracted, got high, and up-ended the tow plane too close to the ground. The rope broke before the glider pilot released. I will do my best not to do this to any tow pilot.

[2G]

On Thursday, February 21, 2019 at 6:47:06 AM UTC-8, BobW wrote:
> >> Take off/departure accidents seem very preventable. I've made it my job
> >> to work on such prevention at my club and it has, at times, caused me to
> >> be unpopular. Checklist discipline & cockpit discipline at both ends of
> >> the rope save lives. Do it. Let's see if we can get through 2019 with
> >> fewer than our running average of 6 USA gliding related fatalities.
> >>
> >> Evan Ludeman / T8
> >
> > <Snip...> I commend you for sending the message to your club
> > members, I think I will have a sign made that says, Don't Kill Your Tow
> > Pilot, and place it in plain view in the hangar. I am sure someone will ask
> > the stupid question, "What Does That Mean"!
>
> My first thought-betting-nickel upon reading the NTSB report was,
> "Stupidly-preventable-never-shoulda-happened-PIC-assisted-fatality."
>
> Lotsa other thoughts, of course (e.g. Glad I'm not that instructor
> *regardless* of actual reason(s) for the crash [feel free to invoke the
> ever-ready 'age' rationale, here]. Thanks, NTSB, for the seasonal timeliness
> of the reminder! Etc.)
>
> And at the risk of being labeled a Safety Nazi, post that sign in the hangar!
> Anyone who seriously asks, "What does that mean?" isn't asking a stupid
> question. Others? Well, the continuing, sad, arguably-entirely-preventable,
> deplorable history of tuggees killing tuggIES isn't a club anyone with an
> ounce of common sense will want to join.
>
> In any event, surely this topic is a discussion that should never be far from
> active awareness in every glider pilot's mind...
>
> Bob W.
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com

My reaction after reading the NTSB report is that this borders on negligent homicide. If you killed someone while making cell phone call while driving (and taking your eyes off the road) you probably would be charged with second or third degree negligent homicide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicular_homicide

§707-704 Negligent homicide in the third degree. (1) A person is guilty of the offense of negligent homicide in the third degree if that person causes the death of another person by the operation of a vehicle in a manner which is simple negligence.

(2) "Simple negligence" as used in this section:

(a) A person acts with simple negligence with respect to the person's conduct when the person should be aware of a risk that the person engages in that conduct.

(b) A person acts with simple negligence with respect to attendant circumstances when the person should be aware of a risk that those circumstances exist.

(c) A person acts with simple negligence with respect to a result of the person's conduct when the person should be aware of a risk that the person's conduct will cause that result.

(d) A risk is within the meaning of this subsection if the person's failure to perceive it, considering the nature and purpose of the person's conduct and the circumstances known to the person, involves a deviation from the standard of care that a law-abiding person would observe in the same situation.

[krasw]

On Thursday, February 21, 2019 at 5:13:06 PM UTC+2, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> I don't hang onto the release during tow.
> I never taught to hang onto the release during tow.
> In glass ships, we have a looped rope tied to the release and laid across our thigh to make a quick release easier.
>
> Why no holding the release? Many things.....
> A sneeze can pull it
> Turbulence can pull it
> Something sudden (like a bee/wasp flying around) can pull it
>
> You do your thing, I'll do mine.
> ;-)

Exactly, keeping your hand on release greatly increases risk for inadverted release which on many airfields leads to accident when done at low altitude. Only time I keep my hand on the release is beginning of take of roll, for aborting the tow if wingtip catches ground: https://youtu.be/WduEiQqLWJU

[Walt Connelly]

Very interesting and enlightening. I will do my best to control the unfiltered aspect of my personality with my response.

As a former tow pilot with just short of 7000 tows I can say I have experienced two very sudden and violent kiting incidents. One at 2K feet and one at just above 300 feet. Not every kiting incident is a slowly evolving type giving the tow pilot time to reach for and actuate the release. I was flying with a Schweizer hook conventionally installed and a release handle on the floor of the Pawnee. In both incidents I was unable to release the rope. The 2K incident resolved when the glider pilot realized what he had done and release, in the 300 foot incident the rope broke...fortunately.

I understand the tow plane in this incident had a Tost system and a guillotine. My question would be..where was the release? Was it down on the floor or up where the pilot could easily grab and actuate it? I could reach the handle in both incidents but again, the pressure was too great to effect a release. This is acknowledged in the SSA literature in BRIGHT RED LETTERS and yet these conditions persisted at the time of my incidents. My understanding of the guillotine system is that there is no pressure on the handle.

The autopsy seems to conclude there was no heart attack. The pilot was 5' 11" tall and weighed 190 lbs giving him a BMI of 26.5, just at the low end of overweight. He had some mild to moderate coronary artery disease, this did not appear to contribute to the problem. In addition the last view of the elevator appears to show it in the up position indicating that the pilot was trying to get his nose up....a futile attempt until the glider is released.

The report indicates that the glider was approximately 250' AGL when the ROPE BROKE under the strain. The tow plane was estimated to be 63 feet below the glider at the time based on a tow rope length of 160 feet. This would put the tow plane below 200 feet. My low kiting experience happened at just over 300 feet. Had the rope not broken I would have been another statistic. As it was I recovered at tree top level, slightly below some of the trees off to the side. I had just enough room to recover, the gentleman who died in this incident did not.

How long should it take an instructor to react when he can't see the tow plane? The proper reaction is TO RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. In the second video it was at 9 seconds when a snapping sound was heard FOLLOWED by the release being pulled. The report indicates that the rope broke under the strain while the glider was still attached. The instructor pulled the release AFTER the rope broke as I interpret the report.

If we can't expect an instructor to keep his eyes on the tow plane AND when he realizes the towplane is no longer in his line of sight to release immediately, how can we expect a 15 year old on her 3rd solo to react properly?

JMHO

Walt Connelly

[Duster[_2_]]

The report cited is a factual report, the accident docket info includes a still photo clearly showing the low position of the tug. However, I don’t see that a final report with a probable cause has been published yet. The NTSB states that this should be completed by 3/13/2019.

[Walt Connelly]

;984043']The report cited is a factual report, the accident docket info includes a still photo clearly showing the low position of the tug. However, I don’t see that a final report with a probable cause has been published yet. The NTSB states that this should be completed by 3/13/2019.

Where does one find the information regarding the "accident docket" you mention?

Walt Connelly

[[email protected]]

As a former tow pilot with just short of 7000 tows I can say I have experienced two very sudden and violent kiting incidents. One at 2K feet and one at just above 300 feet. Not every kiting incident is a slowly evolving type giving the tow pilot time to reach for and actuate the release. I was flying with a Schweizer hook conventionally installed and a release handle on the floor of the Pawnee. In both incidents I was unable to release the rope. The 2K incident resolved when the glider pilot realized what he had done and release, in the 300 foot incident the rope broke...fortunately.

I understand the tow plane in this incident had a Tost system and a guillotine. My question would be..where was the release? Was it down on the floor or up where the pilot could easily grab and actuate it? I could reach the handle in both incidents but again, the pressure was too great to effect a release. This is acknowledged in the SSA literature in BRIGHT RED LETTERS and yet these conditions persisted at the time of my incidents. My understanding of the guillotine system is that there is no pressure on the handle.

The autopsy seems to conclude there was no heart attack. The pilot was 5' 11" tall and weighed 190 lbs giving him a BMI of 26.5, just at the low end of overweight. He had some mild to moderate coronary artery disease, this did not appear to contribute to the problem. In addition the last view of the elevator appears to show it in the up position indicating that the pilot was trying to get his nose up....a futile attempt until the glider is released.

The report indicates that the glider was approximately 250' AGL when the ROPE BROKE under the strain. The tow plane was estimated to be 63 feet below the glider at the time based on a tow rope length of 160 feet. This would put the tow plane below 200 feet. My low kiting experience happened at just over 300 feet. Had the rope not broken I would have been another statistic. As it was I recovered at tree top level, slightly below some of the trees off to the side. I had just enough room to recover, the gentleman who died in this incident did not.

How long should it take an instructor to react when he can't see the tow plane? The proper reaction is TO RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. In the second video it was at 9 seconds when a snapping sound was heard FOLLOWED by the release being pulled. The report indicates that the rope broke under the strain while the glider was still attached. The instructor pulled the release AFTER the rope broke as I interpret the report.

If we can't expect an instructor to keep his eyes on the tow plane AND when he realizes the towplane is no longer in his line of sight to release immediately, how can we expect a 15 year old on her 3rd solo to react properly?

JMHO

Walt Connelly

[Jonathon May]

At 13:50 28 February 2019, wrote:
>As a former tow pilot with just short of 7000 tows I can say I
have
>experie=
>nced two very sudden and violent kiting incidents. One at 2K
feet and one
>a=
>t just above 300 feet. Not every kiting incident is a slowly
evolving type
>=
>giving the tow pilot time to reach for and actuate the release. I
was
>flyin=
>g with a Schweizer hook conventionally installed and a release
handle on
>th=
>e floor of the Pawnee. In both incidents I was unable to release
the rope.
>=
>The 2K incident resolved when the glider pilot realized what he
had done
>an=
>d release, in the 300 foot incident the rope broke...fortunately.
>
>I understand the tow plane in this incident had a Tost system
and a
>guillot=
>ine. My question would be..where was the release? Was it down
on the floor
>=
>or up where the pilot could easily grab and actuate it? I could
reach the
>h=
>andle in both incidents but again, the pressure was too great to
effect a
>r=
>elease. This is acknowledged in the SSA literature in BRIGHT
RED LETTERS
>an=
>d yet these conditions persisted at the time of my incidents. My
>understand=
>ing of the guillotine system is that there is no pressure on the
handle.=20
>
>The autopsy seems to conclude there was no heart attack. The
pilot was 5'
>1=
>1" tall and weighed 190 lbs giving him a BMI of 26.5, just at the
low end
>o=
>f overweight. He had some mild to moderate coronary artery
disease, this
>di=
>d not appear to contribute to the problem. In addition the last
view of
>the=
> elevator appears to show it in the up position indicating that
the pilot
>w=
>as trying to get his nose up....a futile attempt until the glider is
>releas=
>ed.=20
>
>The report indicates that the glider was approximately 250' AGL
when the
>RO=
>PE BROKE under the strain. The tow plane was estimated to be
63 feet below
>=
>the glider at the time based on a tow rope length of 160 feet.
This would
>p=
>ut the tow plane below 200 feet. My low kiting experience
happened at just
>=
>over 300 feet. Had the rope not broken I would have been
another
>statistic.=
> As it was I recovered at tree top level, slightly below some of
the trees
>=
>off to the side. I had just enough room to recover, the
gentleman who died
>=
>in this incident did not.=20
>
>How long should it take an instructor to react when he can't see
the tow
>pl=
>ane? The proper reaction is TO RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. In the
second video it
>=
>was at 9 seconds when a snapping sound was heard FOLLOWED
by the release
>be=
>ing pulled. The report indicates that the rope broke under the
strain
>while=
> the glider was still attached. The instructor pulled the release
AFTER
>the=
> rope broke as I interpret the report.=20
>
>If we can't expect an instructor to keep his eyes on the tow
plane AND
>when=
> he realizes the towplane is no longer in his line of sight to
release
>imme=
>diately, how can we expect a 15 year old on her 3rd solo to
react
>properly?=
>=20
>
>JMHO
>
>Walt Connelly
>
>

I am not making excuses for anyone, but last summer I was
conducting a trail lesson in a DG1000 .The tow pilot found a good
thermal and we climbed well, near my release height the tug
levelled his wings, then just vanished below my view.
I of course released immediately .
Afterwards the tug pilot, who happened to be our chief flying
instructor, had a little chat with me.
We decided he flew out of the side of the thermal out of+5 into-5
and so were in different air. Suffice it to say the time period was
between 1&2 seconds from all being normal and the tug
vanishing.
Thankfully we were at 2000 ft.

>

[Walt Connelly]

At 13:50 28 February 2019, wrote:
As a former tow pilot with just short of 7000 tows I can say I
have
experie=
nced two very sudden and violent kiting incidents. One at 2K
feet and one
a=
t just above 300 feet. Not every kiting incident is a slowly
evolving type
=
giving the tow pilot time to reach for and actuate the release. I
was
flyin=
g with a Schweizer hook conventionally installed and a release
handle on
th=
e floor of the Pawnee. In both incidents I was unable to release
the rope.
=
The 2K incident resolved when the glider pilot realized what he
had done
an=
d release, in the 300 foot incident the rope broke...fortunately.

I understand the tow plane in this incident had a Tost system
and a
guillot=
ine. My question would be..where was the release? Was it down
on the floor
=
or up where the pilot could easily grab and actuate it? I could
reach the
h=
andle in both incidents but again, the pressure was too great to
effect a
r=
elease. This is acknowledged in the SSA literature in BRIGHT
RED LETTERS
an=
d yet these conditions persisted at the time of my incidents. My
understand=
ing of the guillotine system is that there is no pressure on the
handle.=20

The autopsy seems to conclude there was no heart attack. The
pilot was 5'
1=
1" tall and weighed 190 lbs giving him a BMI of 26.5, just at the
low end
o=
f overweight. He had some mild to moderate coronary artery
disease, this
di=
d not appear to contribute to the problem. In addition the last
view of
the=
elevator appears to show it in the up position indicating that
the pilot
w=
as trying to get his nose up....a futile attempt until the glider is
releas=
ed.=20

The report indicates that the glider was approximately 250' AGL
when the
RO=
PE BROKE under the strain. The tow plane was estimated to be
63 feet below
=
the glider at the time based on a tow rope length of 160 feet.
This would
p=
ut the tow plane below 200 feet. My low kiting experience
happened at just
=
over 300 feet. Had the rope not broken I would have been
another
statistic.=
As it was I recovered at tree top level, slightly below some of
the trees
=
off to the side. I had just enough room to recover, the
gentleman who died
=
in this incident did not.=20

How long should it take an instructor to react when he can't see
the tow
pl=
ane? The proper reaction is TO RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. In the
second video it
=
was at 9 seconds when a snapping sound was heard FOLLOWED
by the release
be=
ing pulled. The report indicates that the rope broke under the
strain
while=
the glider was still attached. The instructor pulled the release
AFTER
the=
rope broke as I interpret the report.=20

If we can't expect an instructor to keep his eyes on the tow
plane AND
when=
he realizes the towplane is no longer in his line of sight to
release
imme=
diately, how can we expect a 15 year old on her 3rd solo to
react
properly?=
=20

JMHO

Walt Connelly



I am not making excuses for anyone, but last summer I was
conducting a trail lesson in a DG1000 .The tow pilot found a good
thermal and we climbed well, near my release height the tug
levelled his wings, then just vanished below my view.
I of course released immediately .
Afterwards the tug pilot, who happened to be our chief flying
instructor, had a little chat with me.
We decided he flew out of the side of the thermal out of+5 into-5
and so were in different air. Suffice it to say the time period was
between 1&2 seconds from all being normal and the tug
vanishing.
Thankfully we were at 2000 ft.



I've experienced a kiting at 2K feet which was the fault of the glider pilot reaching for the release, slipping back in his seat and pulling back on the stick. It happens in the wink of an eye and as I have indicated with the Schweizer system it's near impossible to release. Interesting that my two severe kiting incidents were with the two ends of the age spectrum. An elderly individual with obvious physical difficulties whom I did not know hadn't taken a tow in over a year and a 15 year old student on her initial solos. Personally I don't like the idea of thermalling on tow unless the tow pilot and glider pilot discuss this and agree to do so.

Walt

[son_of_flubber]

On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 8:50:17 AM UTC-5, wrote:

> If we can't expect an instructor to keep his eyes on the tow plane AND when he realizes the towplane is no longer in his line of sight to release immediately, how can we expect a 15 year old on her 3rd solo to react properly?

Of the several 15 year old glider pilots that I have known, I would trust their eyesight, reflexes and training to, first of all avoid kiting, and if some freakish kite happened, I would wholly expect them to release immediately. Likewise, I would trust any of the newly minted 18 year old CPLs that I've known to give my brother a glider ride. Pilots with more experience have had time to become complacent and develop bad habits. Tabla rasa(s) not so much.

[Jonathon May]

At 04:42 02 March 2019, son_of_flubber wrote:
>On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 8:50:17 AM UTC-5,

>wro=
>te:
>
>> If we can't expect an instructor to keep his eyes on the tow
plane AND
>wh=
>en he realizes the towplane is no longer in his line of sight to
release
>im=
>mediately, how can we expect a 15 year old on her 3rd solo to
react
>properl=
>y?=20
>
>Of the several 15 year old glider pilots that I have known, I
would trust
>t=
>heir eyesight, reflexes and training to, first of all avoid kiting,
and if
>=
>some freakish kite happened, I would wholly expect them to
release
>immediat=
>ely. Likewise, I would trust any of the newly minted 18 year old
CPLs
>that=
> I've known to give my brother a glider ride. Pilots with more
experience
>=
>have had time to become complacent and develop bad habits.
Tabla rasa(s)
>n=
>ot so much.

>
>I think you are right, more experience leads to complacencies
and you start going things while your body gets on with the
automatic actions, just as you would in a car.
I think it is a personal discipline case where you follow the rule
even though they feel a bit silly, like using a mobile phone in the
car.
On 1 level you think you'r quite capable of doing the simple task
like re -set the altimeter or radio, but in fact if you do your not
really concentrating on the tow.
On the other level you know you were trained to leave everything
until you finished the tow.
Its a discipline thing to stick to the rules
>
>

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

> I think you are right, more experience leads to complacencies
> and you start doing things while your body gets on with the automatic
> actions, just as you would in a car. I think it is a personal discipline
> case where you follow the rule even though they feel a bit silly, like
> using a mobile phone in the car. On 1 level you think you're quite capable
> of doing the simple task like re -set the altimeter or radio, but in fact
> if you do you're not really concentrating on the tow. On the other level you
> know you were trained to leave everything until you finished the tow. Its a
> discipline thing to stick to the rules.

Bingo.

It's that and more, IMO. *Arrogant* complacency ("Nothing could POSSibly go
wrong!") is a powerfully alluring combination when it comes to decision-making.

Add in 'simple thoughtlessness,' and some occasional compulsions to 'show
off,' and foolish behavior apparently becomes irresistible to many pilots.
It's a human-thing...but also entirely avoidable by active choice.

In this particular accident 'showing off' likely wasn't a factor, but that's
not my point here...

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[Dan Marotta]

It doesn't matter whose eyesight and reflexes you might trust, Flub.Â* It
is the Pilot in Command's responsibility to conduct the flight in a safe
manner.Â* If there's a CFI in the aircraft and the other manipulator of
the controls is not a licensed pilot, then the CFI is the PIC and he's
responsible.Â* Plain and simple.

All that other stuff about complacency is right and I fully agree. I
remember during my Air Force days when I was told that a pilot is most
dangerous when he's got about 500 hours.

On 3/1/2019 9:42 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 8:50:17 AM UTC-5, wrote:
>
>> If we can't expect an instructor to keep his eyes on the tow plane AND when he realizes the towplane is no longer in his line of sight to release immediately, how can we expect a 15 year old on her 3rd solo to react properly?
> Of the several 15 year old glider pilots that I have known, I would trust their eyesight, reflexes and training to, first of all avoid kiting, and if some freakish kite happened, I would wholly expect them to release immediately. Likewise, I would trust any of the newly minted 18 year old CPLs that I've known to give my brother a glider ride. Pilots with more experience have had time to become complacent and develop bad habits. Tabla rasa(s) not so much.
>
>
>

--
Dan, 5J

[son_of_flubber]

On Saturday, March 2, 2019 at 11:21:57 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> If there's a CFI in the aircraft and the other manipulator of
> the controls is not a licensed pilot, then the CFI is the PIC and he's
> responsible.Â*

Yeah but, I was commenting on the trustworthiness of

"a 15 year old on her 3rd SOLO". Maybe I did not make myself clear.

[ProfJ]

On Saturday, 2 March 2019 09:21:57 UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> It doesn't matter whose eyesight and reflexes you might trust, Flub.Â* It
> is the Pilot in Command's responsibility to conduct the flight in a safe
> manner.Â* If there's a CFI in the aircraft and the other manipulator of
> the controls is not a licensed pilot, then the CFI is the PIC and he's
> responsible.Â* Plain and simple.
>
> All that other stuff about complacency is right and I fully agree. I
> remember during my Air Force days when I was told that a pilot is most
> dangerous when he's got about 500 hours.
>
> On 3/1/2019 9:42 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 8:50:17 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> >
> >> If we can't expect an instructor to keep his eyes on the tow plane AND when he realizes the towplane is no longer in his line of sight to release immediately, how can we expect a 15 year old on her 3rd solo to react properly?
> > Of the several 15 year old glider pilots that I have known, I would trust their eyesight, reflexes and training to, first of all avoid kiting, and if some freakish kite happened, I would wholly expect them to release immediately. Likewise, I would trust any of the newly minted 18 year old CPLs that I've known to give my brother a glider ride. Pilots with more experience have had time to become complacent and develop bad habits. Tabla rasa(s) not so much.
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

I've done some professional work on measuring pilot responses in air accidents - including looking at cockpit and control systems data for fatal accidents where the instructor took control shortly before the crash. I am certain that the average CFI's delay in switching from close observation to action (taking control) is going to put them way behind the response of a trainee who is at solo level and actively flying the glider. It takes much longer than you might expect to make that cognitive switch (this is the same reason why semi-autonomous cars are going to keep crashing). This also gels with my one and only experience of kiting a towplane, when I was a trainee.. I had pulled the release before the instructor recognized there was a problem. This was compounded by the fact that from the back seat, with the glider and towplane bouncing up and down in strong thermals, he was used to the towplane being out of sight and could not judge its attitude. But yeah, the CFI has to carry the can no matter what. I have massive respect for the calm demeanor they bring to the job :-).

[[email protected]]

On Monday, March 4, 2019 at 12:50:38 PM UTC-5, ProfJ wrote:
> On Saturday, 2 March 2019 09:21:57 UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > It doesn't matter whose eyesight and reflexes you might trust, Flub.Â* It
> > is the Pilot in Command's responsibility to conduct the flight in a safe
> > manner.Â* If there's a CFI in the aircraft and the other manipulator of
> > the controls is not a licensed pilot, then the CFI is the PIC and he's
> > responsible.Â* Plain and simple.
> >
> > All that other stuff about complacency is right and I fully agree. I
> > remember during my Air Force days when I was told that a pilot is most
> > dangerous when he's got about 500 hours.
> >
> > On 3/1/2019 9:42 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > > On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 8:50:17 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > >
> > >> If we can't expect an instructor to keep his eyes on the tow plane AND when he realizes the towplane is no longer in his line of sight to release immediately, how can we expect a 15 year old on her 3rd solo to react properly?
> > > Of the several 15 year old glider pilots that I have known, I would trust their eyesight, reflexes and training to, first of all avoid kiting, and if some freakish kite happened, I would wholly expect them to release immediately. Likewise, I would trust any of the newly minted 18 year old CPLs that I've known to give my brother a glider ride. Pilots with more experience have had time to become complacent and develop bad habits. Tabla rasa(s) not so much.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Dan, 5J
>
> I've done some professional work on measuring pilot responses in air accidents - including looking at cockpit and control systems data for fatal accidents where the instructor took control shortly before the crash. I am certain that the average CFI's delay in switching from close observation to action (taking control) is going to put them way behind the response of a trainee who is at solo level and actively flying the glider. It takes much longer than you might expect to make that cognitive switch (this is the same reason why semi-autonomous cars are going to keep crashing). This also gels with my one and only experience of kiting a towplane, when I was a trainee. I had pulled the release before the instructor recognized there was a problem. This was compounded by the fact that from the back seat, with the glider and towplane bouncing up and down in strong thermals, he was used to the towplane being out of sight and could not judge its attitude. But yeah, the CFI has to carry the can no matter what. I have massive respect for the calm demeanor they bring to the job :-).

I have only a few hundred glider flights and perhaps 20 or so from the back seat but I don't recall ever losing sight of the tow plane while on tow regardless of the thermal activity. With 7000 tows as the tow pilot it is rare to not see the glider in the mirror unless one is doing something stupid, boxing the wake or some other training maneuver at altitude. No instructor in my opinion should be used to the towplane being out of sight.

Walt

[[email protected]]

On Monday, March 4, 2019 at 12:50:38 PM UTC-5, ProfJ wrote:
>
> I've done some professional work on measuring pilot responses in air accidents - including looking at cockpit and control systems data for fatal accidents where the instructor took control shortly before the crash. I am certain that the average CFI's delay in switching from close observation to action (taking control) is going to put them way behind the response of a trainee who is at solo level and actively flying the glider. It takes much longer than you might expect to make that cognitive switch (this is the same reason why semi-autonomous cars are going to keep crashing). This also gels with my one and only experience of kiting a towplane, when I was a trainee. I had pulled the release before the instructor recognized there was a problem. This was compounded by the fact that from the back seat, with the glider and towplane bouncing up and down in strong thermals, he was used to the towplane being out of sight and could not judge its attitude. But yeah, the CFI has to carry the can no matter what. I have massive respect for the calm demeanor they bring to the job :-).

- Having the tow plane out of sight is totally unacceptable. In some gliders (a common low-performance training glider in the USA comes to mind :-) it can be hard to see the towplane (or the instruments) from the back seat over the shoulders of a tall student, but we use pillows or whatever it takes.

- I forget who was it that wrote that an instructional flight has green, yellow and red zones. One can let the student make gross errors in the green zone (at altitude). Need to maintain a safe path to a landing in the yellow zone (pattern). In the red zone (takeoff and landing) the instructor must be ready for instant takeover of the controls. One of the very few times when, as an instructor, I've grabbed the controls by force (before even saying anything), was when a student started climbing too high after liftoff.. Of course I explained it all to the student later.

- Moshe (trying to maintain that calm demeanor)

[Paul Kaye]

Many years ago the late Chris Rollins, while CFI at Booker GC in the UK, did some controlled testing of glider "kiting" behind tugs. He posted something about it on URAS here:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.aviation.soaring/1eZiSHzqC7g/Uz0Ga95XVCsJ

It makes interesting and sobering reading.

[Paul Kaye]

On Friday, 8 March 2019 15:26:18 UTC, Paul Kaye wrote:
> Many years ago the late Chris Rollins, while CFI at Booker GC in the UK, did some controlled testing of glider "kiting" behind tugs. He posted something about it on URAS here:
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.aviation.soaring/1eZiSHzqC7g/Uz0Ga95XVCsJ
>
> It makes interesting and sobering reading.

Some excerpts:

"Third test: Terrier Tow-Plane, K 8b on C of G hook. I pitched the glider
about 25 degrees nose up. The glider continued to pitch up fairly rapidly
(as at the start of a winch launch) and substantial forward movement of the
stick only slightly slowed the rate of pitch. The glider achieved about 45
degrees nose up, speed increased rapidly from 55 knots to about 75 knots
and the glider was pulled back towards level flight (again as at the top of
a winch launch). I released at that point. The entire sequence of events
occupied a VERY short period of time (subsequently measured as 2 - 3
seconds). The Tow Pilot reported a marked deceleration and start of
pitching down which he attempted to contain by moving the stick back; this
was followed immediately by a very rapid pitch down accompanied by
significant negative “G�. The tow-plane finished up about 70 degrees
nose down and took about 400 feet to recover to level flight. We both
found the experience alarming, even undertaken deliberately at 4000 feet.
Our conclusion was that the combination of the initial pitch down and the
upward deflection of the elevator caused the horizontal stabilizer/elevator
combination to stall and the abrupt removal of the down-force it provided
caused the subsequent very rapid pitch-down and negative “G�. "

"These tests were repeated a few years later with a PA18 – 180 as the
tow-plane, Brian Spreckley flying it. The third test described above was
repeated and photographed from a chase plane using a 35 mm motor drive
camera on automatic (this took a frame every half second – video
camcorders of small size were not readily available then). The photo
sequence started with the glider in a slightly low normal tow position and
starting to pitch up, the second frame has the glider about 30 degrees nose
up and about 20 feet higher than previously in the third frame it is about
45 degrees nose up and has gained another 30 feet or so, the tow-plane is
already starting to pitch down, in the fourth frame the glider is about 100
feet higher than its original position and the climb is starting to
shallow, the tow-plane is about 50 degrees nose down, the final frame shows
the tow-plane about 70 degrees nose down and the glider almost back in
level flight , almost directly above it (that was about the point that I
pulled the release).

Sufficiently alarmed by events, Brian Spreckley had been trying to pull the
release in the tow-plane earlier and found that it would not operate until
my releasing at the glider end removed the tension from the rope.
Subsequent tests on the ground showed that the Schweizer hook fitted to the
tow-plane, whilst perfectly satisfactory under normal loads, was jammed
solid by the frictional loads when subject to a pull of around 700 lbs with
a slight upwards component – not something that a normal pre-flight check
would reveal. "

[[email protected]]

On Friday, March 8, 2019 at 9:39:11 AM UTC-6, Paul Kaye wrote:
> On Friday, 8 March 2019 15:26:18 UTC, Paul Kaye wrote:
> > Many years ago the late Chris Rollins, while CFI at Booker GC in the UK, did some controlled testing of glider "kiting" behind tugs. He posted something about it on URAS here:
> >
> > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.aviation.soaring/1eZiSHzqC7g/Uz0Ga95XVCsJ
> >
> > It makes interesting and sobering reading.
>
> Some excerpts:
>
> "Third test: Terrier Tow-Plane, K 8b on C of G hook. I pitched the glider
> about 25 degrees nose up. The glider continued to pitch up fairly rapidly
> (as at the start of a winch launch) and substantial forward movement of the
> stick only slightly slowed the rate of pitch. The glider achieved about 45
> degrees nose up, speed increased rapidly from 55 knots to about 75 knots
> and the glider was pulled back towards level flight (again as at the top of
> a winch launch). I released at that point. The entire sequence of events
> occupied a VERY short period of time (subsequently measured as 2 - 3
> seconds). The Tow Pilot reported a marked deceleration and start of
> pitching down which he attempted to contain by moving the stick back; this
> was followed immediately by a very rapid pitch down accompanied by
> significant negative “G�. The tow-plane finished up about 70 degrees
> nose down and took about 400 feet to recover to level flight. We both
> found the experience alarming, even undertaken deliberately at 4000 feet.
> Our conclusion was that the combination of the initial pitch down and the
> upward deflection of the elevator caused the horizontal stabilizer/elevator
> combination to stall and the abrupt removal of the down-force it provided
> caused the subsequent very rapid pitch-down and negative “G�. "
>
> "These tests were repeated a few years later with a PA18 – 180 as the
> tow-plane, Brian Spreckley flying it. The third test described above was
> repeated and photographed from a chase plane using a 35 mm motor drive
> camera on automatic (this took a frame every half second – video
> camcorders of small size were not readily available then). The photo
> sequence started with the glider in a slightly low normal tow position and
> starting to pitch up, the second frame has the glider about 30 degrees nose
> up and about 20 feet higher than previously in the third frame it is about
> 45 degrees nose up and has gained another 30 feet or so, the tow-plane is
> already starting to pitch down, in the fourth frame the glider is about 100
> feet higher than its original position and the climb is starting to
> shallow, the tow-plane is about 50 degrees nose down, the final frame shows
> the tow-plane about 70 degrees nose down and the glider almost back in
> level flight , almost directly above it (that was about the point that I
> pulled the release).
>
> Sufficiently alarmed by events, Brian Spreckley had been trying to pull the
> release in the tow-plane earlier and found that it would not operate until
> my releasing at the glider end removed the tension from the rope.
> Subsequent tests on the ground showed that the Schweizer hook fitted to the
> tow-plane, whilst perfectly satisfactory under normal loads, was jammed
> solid by the frictional loads when subject to a pull of around 700 lbs with
> a slight upwards component – not something that a normal pre-flight check
> would reveal. "

Thanks Paul, very instructive. Makes me wonder why that Schweizer tow-hook is still legal and widely used.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, March 8, 2019 at 1:05:48 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Friday, March 8, 2019 at 9:39:11 AM UTC-6, Paul Kaye wrote:
> > On Friday, 8 March 2019 15:26:18 UTC, Paul Kaye wrote:
> > > Many years ago the late Chris Rollins, while CFI at Booker GC in the UK, did some controlled testing of glider "kiting" behind tugs. He posted something about it on URAS here:
> > >
> > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.aviation.soaring/1eZiSHzqC7g/Uz0Ga95XVCsJ
> > >
> > > It makes interesting and sobering reading.
> >
> > Some excerpts:
> >
> > "Third test: Terrier Tow-Plane, K 8b on C of G hook. I pitched the glider
> > about 25 degrees nose up. The glider continued to pitch up fairly rapidly
> > (as at the start of a winch launch) and substantial forward movement of the
> > stick only slightly slowed the rate of pitch. The glider achieved about 45
> > degrees nose up, speed increased rapidly from 55 knots to about 75 knots
> > and the glider was pulled back towards level flight (again as at the top of
> > a winch launch). I released at that point. The entire sequence of events
> > occupied a VERY short period of time (subsequently measured as 2 - 3
> > seconds). The Tow Pilot reported a marked deceleration and start of
> > pitching down which he attempted to contain by moving the stick back; this
> > was followed immediately by a very rapid pitch down accompanied by
> > significant negative “G�. The tow-plane finished up about 70 degrees
> > nose down and took about 400 feet to recover to level flight. We both
> > found the experience alarming, even undertaken deliberately at 4000 feet.
> > Our conclusion was that the combination of the initial pitch down and the
> > upward deflection of the elevator caused the horizontal stabilizer/elevator
> > combination to stall and the abrupt removal of the down-force it provided
> > caused the subsequent very rapid pitch-down and negative “G�. "
> >
> > "These tests were repeated a few years later with a PA18 – 180 as the
> > tow-plane, Brian Spreckley flying it. The third test described above was
> > repeated and photographed from a chase plane using a 35 mm motor drive
> > camera on automatic (this took a frame every half second – video
> > camcorders of small size were not readily available then). The photo
> > sequence started with the glider in a slightly low normal tow position and
> > starting to pitch up, the second frame has the glider about 30 degrees nose
> > up and about 20 feet higher than previously in the third frame it is about
> > 45 degrees nose up and has gained another 30 feet or so, the tow-plane is
> > already starting to pitch down, in the fourth frame the glider is about 100
> > feet higher than its original position and the climb is starting to
> > shallow, the tow-plane is about 50 degrees nose down, the final frame shows
> > the tow-plane about 70 degrees nose down and the glider almost back in
> > level flight , almost directly above it (that was about the point that I
> > pulled the release).
> >
> > Sufficiently alarmed by events, Brian Spreckley had been trying to pull the
> > release in the tow-plane earlier and found that it would not operate until
> > my releasing at the glider end removed the tension from the rope.
> > Subsequent tests on the ground showed that the Schweizer hook fitted to the
> > tow-plane, whilst perfectly satisfactory under normal loads, was jammed
> > solid by the frictional loads when subject to a pull of around 700 lbs with
> > a slight upwards component – not something that a normal pre-flight check
> > would reveal. "
>
> Thanks Paul, very instructive. Makes me wonder why that Schweizer tow-hook is still legal and widely used.

I do not wonder why, I know why. It is largely a "we've always done it this way" attitude and a financial consideration. The cost of retrofitting a tow plane with a Tost system and a release handle up where the tow pilot can reach it in the seated, upright position WITH adequate mechanical advantage to effect a release is a few thousand dollars, not something some are willing to spend.

The FAA in their own Advisory Circular, date 3/3/08 AC No 43.13-2b, Page 76, Par 808 states as follows:

“When the glider under tow operates above a certain angle to the tow plane, the ring may slide upwards on the hook, causing excessive load on the hook and difficulty in releasing the tow rope ring.�

The Soaring Society of America thru their Soaring Safety Foundation, Tow Pilot Training course additionally acknowledges IN RED as follows:

“If at any time the nose of the tow plane is pulled to a dangerously high or low pitch attitude, - PULL THE RELEASE!�

It goes on to say:

“Depending on the installation of the tow hitch, it may be possible for the release mechanism to become jammed due to the excessively high position of the glider, (American style hook).�

What they mean by “depending on installation of the tow hitch,� is that if you install it upright instead of inverted it may be possible for the release mechanism to become jammed due to the excessively high position of the glider.

The SSA and the FAA are well aware of this situation and have been for many, many years and yet the system remains approved. I can assure you that not all kiting incidents are slowly developing situations. I've been there at just above 300 feet when in the blink of an eye you find yourself nose down before you could even think of releasing. The gentleman who died in this tow plane incident was probably 100 feet below the level at which mine started. In both cases our tow ropes broke, the glider pilot didn't release. I had barely enough room to recover, he did not.


Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
7000 tows

[Tango Eight]

On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 8:24:04 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> I can assure you that not all kiting incidents are slowly developing situations. I've been there at just above 300 feet when in the blink of an eye you find yourself nose down ***before you could even think of releasing***..

[emphasis added]

Right. So after all the brouhaha and threats to write the FAA about our equipment, it turns out that in at least one of the events that got you goin', you say the hook/release doesn't matter because you didn't even have a chance to respond. Would you care to clarify?

Btw, how long was your rope?

T8

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 1:37:18 PM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 8:24:04 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > I can assure you that not all kiting incidents are slowly developing situations. I've been there at just above 300 feet when in the blink of an eye you find yourself nose down ***before you could even think of releasing***.
>
> [emphasis added]
>
> Right. So after all the brouhaha and threats to write the FAA about our equipment, it turns out that in at least one of the events that got you goin', you say the hook/release doesn't matter because you didn't even have a chance to respond. Would you care to clarify?
>
> Btw, how long was your rope?
>
> T8

First of all I do not make threats, I make promises.

"Our equipment?" If YOUR equipment is such that it could (and has) lead to the death of a tow pilot I have a right then to express my learned opinion, especially as one who has experience the situation.

Where did I say the "hook/release doesn't matter?" THAT was YOUR characterization of my words. What I said was that "in the blink of an eye you find yourself nose down before you could even think of releasing." This point is important in that every report by the NTSB I have read seems to fault the tow pilot for not releasing early enough. The fact that these situation can and do occur in the wink of an eye does not dismiss the fact that the tow pilot should have a system that functions in the seconds after the occurance allowing for an unquestioned release and an opportunity to recover before impacting the ground. The Schweizer hook with a release down on the floor of the Pawnee as I have pointed out is well documented with regards to not functioning under the pressure exerted by a suddenly kiting glider.

Any first year engineering student has heard the term "form follows function." The form of this system fails to function under the conditions in which it must function and therefore the form must be changed, reengineered or replaced.

Any first year engineering student has heard the term "mechanical advantage.." The requirement for a 5-1 release handle ratio is obviously inadequate to overcome the pressures exerted on the Schweizer hook when the glider kites suddenly and yet this requirement seems to persist.

The tow pilot who lost is life in the incident at Skyline I understand had a Tost system with a guillotine. I have been informed that even these systems can fail although I understand there is no pressure on the release. I have sent an email to the NTSB regarding this incident asking "where was the release?" IF it was down on the floor he may not have been able to grasp the handle. In short, every known design flaw in these systems needs to be recognized and redesigned.

As for "how long was my rope?" I made my ropes longer than 200 feet, usually 220 to 230 so we could repair the ends and get a few more tows on the rope. I meticulously inspected the rope each morning and would do so throughout the day as opportunity permitted. The rest of the time one must count on the individual hooking up the glider to adequately inspect the rope for knots and weak areas. The rope in this incident would have been 200 feet or more. I would keep any rope shorter than 200 for tow outs on retrieves which were generally tows for highly experienced pilots. I took my responsibilities as a tow pilot very seriously.

The incident in question at Skyline points out that even instructors can't be trusted to always do things right.

Your comments indicate to me that you are not or never have been a tow pilot. Am I right?

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
7000 tows

[Tom BravoMike]

(…) I took my responsibilities as a tow pilot very seriously.
>
(…)
>
> Walt Connelly
> Former Tow Pilot
> 7000 tows

You did, Walt. It was always a pleasure to be towed by you. I still have your voice recorded in one of my videos, responding on the radio to my self-announcement in the pattern for landing. I will always remember how you once taxied to my parking position, seeing my hesitation and checking if I needed a tow. Friendly and responsible. Thanks!

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 6:59:06 PM UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> My take after reading the NTSB report is the glider pilot looked away to adjust a GoPro, Got High on the tow early and drove the tug into the ground..
> Does this sound correct?
> God Damn it. These are easily preventable accidents.
> Killing Tow Pilots like this is very bad form.
> When I was towing I'd look pilots in the eye that I didn't know and say " If you get high on me your getting rope, immediately." Got it?

No, this does not sound correct to me. I think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions unwarranted. Read it a bit closer! First, the pilot, and instructor, was in the back seat and the "passenger" was in the front seat with the camera. The pilot did not touch the camera and it has nothing to do with the accident as I read it. Are you suggesting the instructor let the passenger fly the tow? That would be the first cause of the accident if I were writing the report. There are many other examples of assumptions being made that I don't have time to go into, but one, my gopro stops the video and starts the video after a certain duration, that start and stop could have been done automatically by the camera, and two " Based on the glider altimeter readings that can be seen in the videos, the glider climbed about 50 ft during this time, from 890 to 940 ft msl. Video analysis showed that the tow plane altitude relative to the glider decreased by 63 ft during these 13 seconds (based on an estimated tow rope length of 160 ft).", does not sound like a glider pulling the towplane down. Perhaps the towplane descended dramatically after that for some other reason. Regardless, it is in no way conclusive that the glider pulled the towplane down. I have no idea what is likely and I'm not going to presume. Most of the time we all talk about how inaccurate/uninformed the NTSB reports are,why is it different here?

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 6:59:06 PM UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> My take after reading the NTSB report is the glider pilot looked away to adjust a GoPro, Got High on the tow early and drove the tug into the ground..
> Does this sound correct?
> God Damn it. These are easily preventable accidents.
> Killing Tow Pilots like this is very bad form.
> When I was towing I'd look pilots in the eye that I didn't know and say " If you get high on me your getting rope, immediately." Got it?

I will grant you, that is one terribly written report. It is hard to distinguish exactly who reported what and where the camera was. I THINK it is meant to read that the passenger comments, "he then looked away from the tow plane briefly to adjust a video camera. When he looked back toward the tow plane, he did not immediately see it but then noted that it was below and right of the glider." The report then states what the pilot reported? "Additionally, the flight instructor noticed slack in the tow rope that attached the glider to the tow plane. He then released the tow rope, turned the glider 180°, and landed uneventfully." I don't know because later it refers to the video that the pilot recorded...

If anything it's a good argument for a good liberal arts education regardless of career (you get to do plenty of writing that is read and critiqued by professors!).

[Mike C]

On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 2:27:16 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 6:59:06 PM UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> > My take after reading the NTSB report is the glider pilot looked away to adjust a GoPro, Got High on the tow early and drove the tug into the ground.
> > Does this sound correct?
> > God Damn it. These are easily preventable accidents.
> > Killing Tow Pilots like this is very bad form.
> > When I was towing I'd look pilots in the eye that I didn't know and say " If you get high on me your getting rope, immediately." Got it?
>
> I will grant you, that is one terribly written report. It is hard to distinguish exactly who reported what and where the camera was. I THINK it is meant to read that the passenger comments, "he then looked away from the tow plane briefly to adjust a video camera. When he looked back toward the tow plane, he did not immediately see it but then noted that it was below and right of the glider." The report then states what the pilot reported? "Additionally, the flight instructor noticed slack in the tow rope that attached the glider to the tow plane. He then released the tow rope, turned the glider 180°, and landed uneventfully." I don't know because later it refers to the video that the pilot recorded...
>
> If anything it's a good argument for a good liberal arts education regardless of career (you get to do plenty of writing that is read and critiqued by professors!).


"Video Study
The glider flight instructor recorded two videos on a GoPro Hero 5 video camera that included most of the flight. Although the videos did not capture the tow plane's ground impact, they captured portions of the tow plane's flight just before impact. Copies of the videos were forwarded to the National Transportation Safety Board Vehicle Recorders Laboratory, Washington, DC, for further examination."

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 3:38:19 PM UTC-5, Mike C wrote:
> On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 2:27:16 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 6:59:06 PM UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> > > My take after reading the NTSB report is the glider pilot looked away to adjust a GoPro, Got High on the tow early and drove the tug into the ground.
> > > Does this sound correct?
> > > God Damn it. These are easily preventable accidents.
> > > Killing Tow Pilots like this is very bad form.
> > > When I was towing I'd look pilots in the eye that I didn't know and say " If you get high on me your getting rope, immediately." Got it?
> >
> > I will grant you, that is one terribly written report. It is hard to distinguish exactly who reported what and where the camera was. I THINK it is meant to read that the passenger comments, "he then looked away from the tow plane briefly to adjust a video camera. When he looked back toward the tow plane, he did not immediately see it but then noted that it was below and right of the glider." The report then states what the pilot reported? "Additionally, the flight instructor noticed slack in the tow rope that attached the glider to the tow plane. He then released the tow rope, turned the glider 180°, and landed uneventfully." I don't know because later it refers to the video that the pilot recorded...
> >
> > If anything it's a good argument for a good liberal arts education regardless of career (you get to do plenty of writing that is read and critiqued by professors!).
>
>
> "Video Study
> The glider flight instructor recorded two videos on a GoPro Hero 5 video camera that included most of the flight. Although the videos did not capture the tow plane's ground impact, they captured portions of the tow plane's flight just before impact. Copies of the videos were forwarded to the National Transportation Safety Board Vehicle Recorders Laboratory, Washington, DC, for further examination."

Yes, I read that, and I alluded to that portion in my comment. What is your point? What conclusion did you draw from that part of the report?

[Steve Koerner]

On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 1:27:16 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 6:59:06 PM UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> > My take after reading the NTSB report is the glider pilot looked away to adjust a GoPro, Got High on the tow early and drove the tug into the ground.
> > Does this sound correct?
> > God Damn it. These are easily preventable accidents.
> > Killing Tow Pilots like this is very bad form.
> > When I was towing I'd look pilots in the eye that I didn't know and say " If you get high on me your getting rope, immediately." Got it?
>
> I will grant you, that is one terribly written report. It is hard to distinguish exactly who reported what and where the camera was. I THINK it is meant to read that the passenger comments, "he then looked away from the tow plane briefly to adjust a video camera. When he looked back toward the tow plane, he did not immediately see it but then noted that it was below and right of the glider." The report then states what the pilot reported? "Additionally, the flight instructor noticed slack in the tow rope that attached the glider to the tow plane. He then released the tow rope, turned the glider 180°, and landed uneventfully." I don't know because later it refers to the video that the pilot recorded...
>
> If anything it's a good argument for a good liberal arts education regardless of career (you get to do plenty of writing that is read and critiqued by professors!).



I found the report to be clear and well written. This is one of the few NTSB glider accident reports in which most of us can read the report and know with high confidence what went wrong.

Your suggestion that it is probably the passenger's comment about looking away is just wacky when the opening sentence to that paragraph makes perfectly clear that it is comment from the pilot that is being reported.

Making judgements about accidents within the soaring community is critically important so that we have steerage for fixing things that aren't going well. This business of kiting on tow is one of those things that very much needs attention because it is killing people. Suggesting that we all put our head in the sand and proclaim that we don't know for sure is asinine. When a fatal accident happens we all need to learn from that event whatever it is that needs to be learned.

[[email protected]]

Could instant total power failure lead to a kiting incident? Tug starts down immediately glider goes up. Not saying that is what happened here just wondering about the possibility. Anyone had a full instantaneous power failure on tow?

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 4:03:11 PM UTC-5, Steve Koerner wrote:
> On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 1:27:16 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 6:59:06 PM UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> > > My take after reading the NTSB report is the glider pilot looked away to adjust a GoPro, Got High on the tow early and drove the tug into the ground.
> > > Does this sound correct?
> > > God Damn it. These are easily preventable accidents.
> > > Killing Tow Pilots like this is very bad form.
> > > When I was towing I'd look pilots in the eye that I didn't know and say " If you get high on me your getting rope, immediately." Got it?
> >
> > I will grant you, that is one terribly written report. It is hard to distinguish exactly who reported what and where the camera was. I THINK it is meant to read that the passenger comments, "he then looked away from the tow plane briefly to adjust a video camera. When he looked back toward the tow plane, he did not immediately see it but then noted that it was below and right of the glider." The report then states what the pilot reported? "Additionally, the flight instructor noticed slack in the tow rope that attached the glider to the tow plane. He then released the tow rope, turned the glider 180°, and landed uneventfully." I don't know because later it refers to the video that the pilot recorded...
> >
> > If anything it's a good argument for a good liberal arts education regardless of career (you get to do plenty of writing that is read and critiqued by professors!).
>
>
>
> I found the report to be clear and well written. This is one of the few NTSB glider accident reports in which most of us can read the report and know with high confidence what went wrong.
>
> Your suggestion that it is probably the passenger's comment about looking away is just wacky when the opening sentence to that paragraph makes perfectly clear that it is comment from the pilot that is being reported.
>
> Making judgements about accidents within the soaring community is critically important so that we have steerage for fixing things that aren't going well. This business of kiting on tow is one of those things that very much needs attention because it is killing people. Suggesting that we all put our head in the sand and proclaim that we don't know for sure is asinine. When a fatal accident happens we all need to learn from that event whatever it is that needs to be learned.

"Suggesting that we all put our head in the sand and proclaim that we don't know for sure is asinine." Brilliant and useful comment, personal attacks usually are. Kind of my point about this thread, so much of it is useless crap. IMO we haven't learned much about "When a fatal accident happens we all need to learn from that event whatever it is that needs to be learned" from this thread. For the most part, just a bunch of people spouting off emotionally. Fine if you see it differently, but nothing I've read in this thread is going to stop the next accident.
Anyway, we could also wait for someone who knows. Anyone who has looked at the video knows. Perhaps we tone it down so that someone feels like they can make a comment without getting flamed.

[Steve Koerner]

On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 2:24:43 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 4:03:11 PM UTC-5, Steve Koerner wrote:
> > On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 1:27:16 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 6:59:06 PM UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> > > > My take after reading the NTSB report is the glider pilot looked away to adjust a GoPro, Got High on the tow early and drove the tug into the ground.
> > > > Does this sound correct?
> > > > God Damn it. These are easily preventable accidents.
> > > > Killing Tow Pilots like this is very bad form.
> > > > When I was towing I'd look pilots in the eye that I didn't know and say " If you get high on me your getting rope, immediately." Got it?
> > >
> > > I will grant you, that is one terribly written report. It is hard to distinguish exactly who reported what and where the camera was. I THINK it is meant to read that the passenger comments, "he then looked away from the tow plane briefly to adjust a video camera. When he looked back toward the tow plane, he did not immediately see it but then noted that it was below and right of the glider." The report then states what the pilot reported? "Additionally, the flight instructor noticed slack in the tow rope that attached the glider to the tow plane. He then released the tow rope, turned the glider 180°, and landed uneventfully." I don't know because later it refers to the video that the pilot recorded...
> > >
> > > If anything it's a good argument for a good liberal arts education regardless of career (you get to do plenty of writing that is read and critiqued by professors!).
> >
> >
> >
> > I found the report to be clear and well written. This is one of the few NTSB glider accident reports in which most of us can read the report and know with high confidence what went wrong.
> >
> > Your suggestion that it is probably the passenger's comment about looking away is just wacky when the opening sentence to that paragraph makes perfectly clear that it is comment from the pilot that is being reported.
> >
> > Making judgements about accidents within the soaring community is critically important so that we have steerage for fixing things that aren't going well. This business of kiting on tow is one of those things that very much needs attention because it is killing people. Suggesting that we all put our head in the sand and proclaim that we don't know for sure is asinine. When a fatal accident happens we all need to learn from that event whatever it is that needs to be learned.
>
> "Suggesting that we all put our head in the sand and proclaim that we don't know for sure is asinine." Brilliant and useful comment, personal attacks usually are. Kind of my point about this thread, so much of it is useless crap. IMO we haven't learned much about "When a fatal accident happens we all need to learn from that event whatever it is that needs to be learned" from this thread. For the most part, just a bunch of people spouting off emotionally. Fine if you see it differently, but nothing I've read in this thread is going to stop the next accident.
> Anyway, we could also wait for someone who knows. Anyone who has looked at the video knows. Perhaps we tone it down so that someone feels like they can make a comment without getting flamed.

The problem with your comments and your point of view is that there are in fact very important takeaways from this accident and from the discussion of the accident. I think it is quite possible that the discussion here that emphasises the importance of glider pilot vigilance and avoiding all distractions during the first 600 feet of tow has the potential to critically influence someone that might otherwise be tempted to fiddle with his computer when he needs to focus on the towplane. It's possible that the discussion here will cause some operations to increase the length of the towrope which may have the potential to save a tuggies life one day. Then there is the discussion regarding the tow release problems that might ultimately save lives if the release hardware gets improved. There is also a worthy discussion as to whether we might make life safer for tow pilots if we primarily trained low tow (that one is not obvious, but needs consideration).

[Mike C]

On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 2:47:15 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 3:38:19 PM UTC-5, Mike C wrote:
> > On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 2:27:16 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 6:59:06 PM UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> > > > My take after reading the NTSB report is the glider pilot looked away to adjust a GoPro, Got High on the tow early and drove the tug into the ground.
> > > > Does this sound correct?
> > > > God Damn it. These are easily preventable accidents.
> > > > Killing Tow Pilots like this is very bad form.
> > > > When I was towing I'd look pilots in the eye that I didn't know and say " If you get high on me your getting rope, immediately." Got it?
> > >
> > > I will grant you, that is one terribly written report. It is hard to distinguish exactly who reported what and where the camera was. I THINK it is meant to read that the passenger comments, "he then looked away from the tow plane briefly to adjust a video camera. When he looked back toward the tow plane, he did not immediately see it but then noted that it was below and right of the glider." The report then states what the pilot reported? "Additionally, the flight instructor noticed slack in the tow rope that attached the glider to the tow plane. He then released the tow rope, turned the glider 180°, and landed uneventfully." I don't know because later it refers to the video that the pilot recorded...
> > >
> > > If anything it's a good argument for a good liberal arts education regardless of career (you get to do plenty of writing that is read and critiqued by professors!).
> >
> >
> > "Video Study
> > The glider flight instructor recorded two videos on a GoPro Hero 5 video camera that included most of the flight. Although the videos did not capture the tow plane's ground impact, they captured portions of the tow plane's flight just before impact. Copies of the videos were forwarded to the National Transportation Safety Board Vehicle Recorders Laboratory, Washington, DC, for further examination."
>
> Yes, I read that, and I alluded to that portion in my comment. What is your point? What conclusion did you draw from that part of the report?

I do not want to enter into a samsaric discourse, but I think you have misinterpreted the report and that the camera was controlled by the sailplane pilot. The tow plane pilot could have had an unrelated problem at the same time, which is possible. I also think that most of us recognized what seemed obvious because we have all had our seconds of inattention on tow and know how quickly one can get out of position. Last year I adjusted my radio and in an instant was way out of position. I learned a lesson and will not take my attention off the tow plane.

Mike

[Ouroboros]

The son of the tow pilot in this accident posted on Reddit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Gliding/comments/asreux/towplane_drops_below_your_nose_release_immediately/

[Tango Eight]

On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 9:48:10 AM UTC-4, wrote:

> Your comments indicate to me that you are not or never have been a tow pilot. Am I right?

I'm a tow pilot of modest experience (+/-500 tows, my club prefers me in the back seat of a glider on days I work).

Nothing else to add at this time.

T8

[Dan Marotta]

I had a power failure once while towing my wife as a student in a Grob.Â*
She told me I went down sharply so she released and turned back.

On 3/10/2019 3:15 PM, wrote:
> Could instant total power failure lead to a kiting incident? Tug starts down immediately glider goes up. Not saying that is what happened here just wondering about the possibility. Anyone had a full instantaneous power failure on tow?

--
Dan, 5J

[Duster[_2_]]

Though the final report w/any probable cause is scheduled for this Wednesday (3/13), there are a few details that perplex me. Video analysis (segment #2)indicates the spoiler handle starts to move aft at (in seconds?) 5.14s, then is near full aft by 9.21s until 11.13s when it "starts to move forward". Near the end of the epoch, the release handle moves several inches, then dangles, coincident with a snapping sound. The glider PIC reported deploying brakes when he saw the towplane below to the right with slack in the line. He stated,"and the[n] released the towrope." Partial to full brake handle aft for about 6 seconds, most while tug/glider still connected it seems (tho maybe wrong). Witnesses told the PIC they didn't think he pulled the tug's tail up; some of the written docs bear this out. Video stills recorded the tug's elevator position.

The post by Ouroboros was enlightening.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Gliding/comments/asreux/towplane_drops_below_your_nose_release_immediately/

[BG[_4_]]

On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 5:01:48 PM UTC-7, Duster wrote:
> Though the final report w/any probable cause is scheduled for this Wednesday (3/13), there are a few details that perplex me. Video analysis (segment #2)indicates the spoiler handle starts to move aft at (in seconds?) 5.14s, then is near full aft by 9.21s until 11.13s when it "starts to move forward". Near the end of the epoch, the release handle moves several inches, then dangles, coincident with a snapping sound. The glider PIC reported deploying brakes when he saw the towplane below to the right with slack in the line. He stated,"and the[n] released the towrope." Partial to full brake handle aft for about 6 seconds, most while tug/glider still connected it seems (tho maybe wrong). Witnesses told the PIC they didn't think he pulled the tug's tail up; some of the written docs bear this out. Video stills recorded the tug's elevator position.
>
> The post by Ouroboros was enlightening.
> https://www.reddit.com/r/Gliding/comments/asreux/towplane_drops_below_your_nose_release_immediately/

Where are you able to see the video footage?

BG

[Duster[_2_]]

>Video stills recorded the tug's elevator position.
>
> Where are you able to see the video footage?
>
> BG

See if you can open these files.

https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/62000-62499/62018/622033.pdf
https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/62000-62499/62018/622036.pdf
For the full video, make a FOIA request to the NTSB or via the FAA. They've been willing to assist, though there are nominal fees in some cases. In my experience, they won't ask for a justification, though providing one might help.

[[email protected]]

I'm curious as to how many clubs or tow pilots have really trained and cut a glider loose? It takes a bit of time to react to the situation and if you've never trained or experienced it the time is even greater.
Most tow pilots have talked about it but never experienced it in the heat of the moment.
We pull an unexpected release on our glider students. When do the tug pilots get the same unexpected training?

At one of the clubs I frequent they drop the rope in the grass on landing. So at least the tug pilot is used to reaching for the release and becomes comfortable with its location.

[Ernst]

Record of conversation in the docket:
"Mr. Wallace was interviewed via telephone. He was asked about his GoPro camera recording suddenly stopping during the accident flight. Mr. Wallace stated that he had not used the camera too many times prior to the accident flight, perhaps three or four. During the accident flight, he noticed it stopped recording and he started a new recording a few seconds later. He cannot recall if that had happened during the previous times he used the camera, but had heard from other pilots that it’s a common occurrence"

[Roy B.]

I'm curious as to how many clubs or tow pilots have really trained and cut a glider loose?
[You are going to lose a tow rope every time you do that]


Most tow pilots have talked about it but never experienced it in the heat of the moment.
[Thank you, God]

We pull an unexpected release on our glider students. When do the tug pilots get the same unexpected training?
[When you screw up back there. Ain't no instructor in the back seat of a Pawnee]

[ROY]

[Charlie Quebec]

This is the post from reddit from the son of the pilot. He has actually seen the footage. Interestingly, he mentions health as a possible issue.
mrmrkester • 18d
The fatality in this accident was my father.

I have viewed the GoPro video in question a million times (doesn’t show impact) and to blame the accident solely on that doesn’t really make complete sense.

The towplane goes down by itself before the kiting really takes place. My dad was a pretty healthy guy but I’m more likely to believe in a medical issue before solely blaming the glider instructor. I’m not the NTSB so I won’t do their job, but it just doesn’t all add up.

Our Pawnee had the ability to cut the rope from the towplane end plus my dad makes no radio calls?

I’m a member of a different soaring club near my university and they tried replicating the accident (at altitude) and the tow pilot didn’t report much difficulty in controlling the Pawnee.

I’m a CFI-G myself, but if you ever lose sight of the towplane please release immediately. Had this pilot done this I’m not convinced the result would have been much different, but perhaps would have given my father a better chance of survival.

What we do carries an inherit risk, especially when flying behind a rope of someone else.

Please be safe out there.

[Tango Eight]

Have you ever lost close friends or family while they were acting as PIC?

There is powerful psychology at play. Wanting to believe that your friend or loved one was incapacitated is as normal as it gets.

T8


On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 10:07:23 PM UTC-4, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> This is the post from reddit from the son of the pilot. He has actually seen the footage. Interestingly, he mentions health as a possible issue.
> mrmrkester • 18d
> The fatality in this accident was my father.
>
> I have viewed the GoPro video in question a million times (doesn’t show impact) and to blame the accident solely on that doesn’t really make complete sense.
>
> The towplane goes down by itself before the kiting really takes place. My dad was a pretty healthy guy but I’m more likely to believe in a medical issue before solely blaming the glider instructor. I’m not the NTSB so I won’t do their job, but it just doesn’t all add up.
>
> Our Pawnee had the ability to cut the rope from the towplane end plus my dad makes no radio calls?
>
> I’m a member of a different soaring club near my university and they tried replicating the accident (at altitude) and the tow pilot didn’t report much difficulty in controlling the Pawnee.
>
> I’m a CFI-G myself, but if you ever lose sight of the towplane please release immediately. Had this pilot done this I’m not convinced the result would have been much different, but perhaps would have given my father a better chance of survival.
>
> What we do carries an inherit risk, especially when flying behind a rope of someone else.
>
> Please be safe out there.

[Tango Eight]

On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 5:27:02 PM UTC-4, Duster wrote:
> >Video stills recorded the tug's elevator position.
> >
> > Where are you able to see the video footage?
> >
> > BG
>
> See if you can open these files.
>
> https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/62000-62499/62018/622033.pdf
> https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/62000-62499/62018/622036.pdf
> For the full video, make a FOIA request to the NTSB or via the FAA. They've been willing to assist, though there are nominal fees in some cases. In my experience, they won't ask for a justification, though providing one might help.

Everything you need is in the video analysis. Good job by the analyst. Experienced tow pilots & glider instructors can figure it out from here.

T8

[Charlie Quebec]

Yes, I lost a friend in a tug accident. The evidence so far is open to several interpretations as far as Im concerned.

[Dan Marotta]

When I had the power loss mentioned earlier in this thread, my wife and
I pulled the releases almost simultaneously.Â* I did a "stick left, stick
right, release pull" and looked over my shoulder.Â* She was already
gone.Â* Later that day, another man and I went looking for the rope and
found it literally right off the end of the runway.

On 3/11/2019 7:31 PM, Roy B. wrote:
> I'm curious as to how many clubs or tow pilots have really trained and cut a glider loose?
> [You are going to lose a tow rope every time you do that]
>
>
> Most tow pilots have talked about it but never experienced it in the heat of the moment.
> [Thank you, God]
>
> We pull an unexpected release on our glider students. When do the tug pilots get the same unexpected training?
> [When you screw up back there. Ain't no instructor in the back seat of a Pawnee]
>
> [ROY]

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

Reaction was not an issue.Â* Surprise!Â* It got quiet.Â* Dump the glider
(no worrying that it was my wife flying - she can do this on her own).Â*
Pick out a field and steer that way.Â* Actually I'd chosen that field
years before.Â* Look inside for what might be the problem.Â* Aha!Â* The
edge of my glove had hooked the mixture control as I came back from
adjusting the prop control (this was a Cessna Skywagon with throttle and
mixture on the left side quadrant and prop on the panel).Â* Add mixture,
recover around 100' AGL, land, and put the gloves in my pockets.Â* That
never happened again!

On 3/11/2019 5:04 PM, wrote:
> I'm curious as to how many clubs or tow pilots have really trained and cut a glider loose? It takes a bit of time to react to the situation and if you've never trained or experienced it the time is even greater.
> Most tow pilots have talked about it but never experienced it in the heat of the moment.
> We pull an unexpected release on our glider students. When do the tug pilots get the same unexpected training?
>
> At one of the clubs I frequent they drop the rope in the grass on landing. So at least the tug pilot is used to reaching for the release and becomes comfortable with its location.

--
Dan, 5J

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

OK.....I am, "sorta among the oddballs in the US.....".
While I would like to mandate low tow......(yes, flame suit on.....have a thick skin....losing conversation.....", let's do this to be sorta reasonable.

I don't know if the "country aviation group (FAA in the US)" or country "glider group" (SSA in the US) would have the numbers........ but can we look at tug crashes based on high tow vs. low tow?
If we can, is there any MEANINGFUL info to be derived from that?!?!?!?!

I do NOT want this to be a ****ing match.....what, if any, data supports one type of tow vs. another vs. tug crashes.

I have stated this before, most comments are more, "we have always done it this way!".
This turns into a ****ing match.
The goal should be......"what is safer for all involved"????

Yes, I understand a Schweitzer tow hook may be excessively loaded in a kiting incident if mounted "hook up"… I am trying to get away from, "we always do it this way, must be best" and look at numbers if they actually show a data preference.
Again, this IS formation flying, everyone MUST do their part......we are down to....training and how big a margin exists in each type of tow.

I have my preference, I teach both, I use both....I prefer low tow.....

So......is the country glider group a better info source of tug crashes based on tow type or the country aviation group better?

What are the numbers.......????

[Tango Eight]

On Tuesday, March 12, 2019 at 1:17:43 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> OK.....I am, "sorta among the oddballs in the US.....".
> While I would like to mandate low tow......(yes, flame suit on.....have a thick skin....losing conversation.....", let's do this to be sorta reasonable.
>
> I don't know if the "country aviation group (FAA in the US)" or country "glider group" (SSA in the US) would have the numbers........ but can we look at tug crashes based on high tow vs. low tow?
> If we can, is there any MEANINGFUL info to be derived from that?!?!?!?!
>
> I do NOT want this to be a ****ing match.....what, if any, data supports one type of tow vs. another vs. tug crashes.
>
> I have stated this before, most comments are more, "we have always done it this way!".
> This turns into a ****ing match.
> The goal should be......"what is safer for all involved"????
>
> Yes, I understand a Schweitzer tow hook may be excessively loaded in a kiting incident if mounted "hook up"… I am trying to get away from, "we always do it this way, must be best" and look at numbers if they actually show a data preference.
> Again, this IS formation flying, everyone MUST do their part......we are down to....training and how big a margin exists in each type of tow.
>
> I have my preference, I teach both, I use both....I prefer low tow.....
>
> So......is the country glider group a better info source of tug crashes based on tow type or the country aviation group better?
>
> What are the numbers.......????

Out of control is out of control. How on earth does tow position affect this?

T8

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, March 12, 2019 at 1:17:43 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> OK.....I am, "sorta among the oddballs in the US.....".
> While I would like to mandate low tow......
First mandate that pilots pay attention. The kiting accidents and recreations indicate once kite acceleration starts the game is lost. Doesn't matter what tow position you start from. Tow position is a scapegoat for pilot inattention.

[Charlie Quebec]

Name one case of kiting occouring from low tow. I can’t recall a single incident here, where we only use low tow.
It’s simple physics for goodness sake.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, March 12, 2019 at 7:10:12 PM UTC-4, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> Name one case of kiting occouring from low tow. I can’t recall a single incident here, where we only use low tow.
> It’s simple physics for goodness sake.

Somewhere (in this thread iirc) is a report on simulating kiting accidents at altitude and low tow being no better. As for citing a real world low tow tug upset I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't any. Not due to increased safety of low tow but due to how universal high tow is. And if there is one I'm sure the evangelical lowtowers would claim the pilot got high first. The lazy procedural golden bullet isn't the answer, the answer is paying attention for five minutes.

[BobW]

>> So......is the country glider group a better info source of tug crashes
>> based on tow type or the country aviation group better?
>>
>> What are the numbers.......????
>
> Out of control is out of control. How on earth does tow position affect
> this?

I doubt anyone would disagree with the "out of control" assertion; certainly
not me.

As to the trailing question, if we apply the concept "this" NOT to the "out of
control" bit, but to the "tow position" bit, then I suspect there may quite
possibly be some "useful insights" to be inferred from a "ballpark study" of
various countries' tow-fatalities-by-kiting rate.

I first learned of a fatal kiting crash ca. 1972 - before I obtained my
license - from a sheaf of Miles Coverdale's "Safety Corner" columns shoved at
me by my club's Chief Instructor, accompanied by a blunt, "Read these and tell
me what lesson your learn from them." The crash occurred at Heber City, UT,
ca. 1966...K-8 behind a Super Cub, IIRC. (I've become aware of a depressing
'minor stream' of 'em ever since.)

Terrified I wouldn't meet his expectations (he wasn't MY instructor), I read
the sheaf twice, all the while fretting I'd fail Jack's (the instructor) test.
Upon working up my nerve to return the handout, when Jack asked what I'd
learned, I (very tentatively) offered up words to the effect: Um...don't be
stupid? Most every crunch described seems-to-me to be mostly pilot error.
(Jack was pleased.)

Never seen any need to change that fundamental assessment.

That said, the only two countries known to me in which kiting fatalities have
occurred are the US and Great Britain (both 'above-the-wake' countries). I'm
unaware of any in Australia (Exclusively low tow?) or Germany/France (High
tow? Not every launch is by winch). I'm certainly open to further edification,
here.

With a nod to statistical analysis, I'm unconvinced *only* the US and Great
Britain train pilots who can't who can't remain in control while on high
tow...but I could be wrong! And - IF true - a complete absence of kiting
fatalities beginning from a position 'below the wake' *might* mean more than
'the US and Great Britain have a training/PIC problem no other countries' have.

I'd love to be further educated by those more knowledgeable than I regarding
tow-position-methodology taught in Germany and France, AND someone's
'reasonably-knowledgeable-thanks-to-longer-term-interest in such safety data'
take on Germsny's/France's aerotow fatality histories.

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[AS]

> I'd love to be further educated by those more knowledgeable than I regarding
> tow-position-methodology taught in Germany and France, AND someone's
> 'reasonably-knowledgeable-thanks-to-longer-term-interest in such safety data'
> take on Germsny's/France's aerotow fatality histories.
>
> Bob W.

Hi Bob,

I can't provide any 'aerotow fatality history data' but the tow position we were taught in Germany was 'keep the wheels of the tow-plane on the horizon'. I towed behind a Taylorcraft Auster, Pa-18, Morane Ralley, Remoquer DR400, etc. and it always worked well for me - and the tow pilot. The tow ropes were always 60+m.

Uli
'AS'

[Charlie Quebec]

Yep Australia is exclusively low tow, with a couple of rare types with a belly hook only that must use high, the Diamant comes to mind.
Whilst I can understand kiting from a belly hook, I would have thought a nose hook would be better in this aspect. For many years the GFA made nose hooks mandatory on all imported gliders.
Ive just recently done my first few tows on a belly hook, as my glider (DG202-17C) has no nose hook, and $5K au seems excessive. No issues so far.
From below the wake you have much more time to prevent a kiting incident before it gets serious, and the tug disappears below the nose.
I stay as low as possible after liftoff (top of tug fin height) and wait until the tug climbs above me, then follow in station. Ive never got even above the wake, as
the turbulence clearly unmissable indicates the out of position, as opposed to high tow, where the air you kite into is no different, giving no warning.
Twice I have released the tow at low level, once thru tug fuel runout, and once where I got higher than I liked, and when I couldn’t be sure I could get back in station in time for the tow plane
to safely take off. In both cases, the tug pilots said it would probably have been ok, but thanked me for making sure.

[Tango Eight]

On Tuesday, March 12, 2019 at 7:10:12 PM UTC-4, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> Name one case of kiting occouring from low tow. I can’t recall a single incident here, where we only use low tow.
> It’s simple physics for goodness sake.

You've made it perfectly clear that you don't understand the physics.

It's all been covered.

READ.

T8

[BobW]

On 3/12/2019 7:55 PM, AS wrote:
>
>> I'd love to be further educated by those more knowledgeable than I
>> regarding tow-position-methodology taught in Germany and France, AND
>> someone's 'reasonably-knowledgeable-thanks-to-longer-term-interest in
>> such safety data' take on Germsny's/France's aerotow fatality histories.
>>
<snip...>
>
> I can't provide any 'aerotow fatality history data' but the tow position we
> were taught in Germany was 'keep the wheels of the tow-plane on the
> horizon'. I towed behind a Taylorcraft Auster, Pa-18, Morane Ralley,
> Remoquer DR400, etc. and it always worked well for me - and the tow pilot.
> The tow ropes were always 60+m.

Thanks for the feedback!

Since this thread seems 'to have natural drift' (kinda like some glider pilots
when towing!), indulge another anecdotal input.

'Somewhen along the line' I towed in a lightish glider behind a significantly
more powerful/new-type-to-me tug. The sight picture minorly flummoxed me for a
bit, to the point where I had time to ponder 'the weird intermittent
vibration' I'd not before noticed in the ship. It was the wake, of course, a
fact I proved to myself by 'vertically messing about with it' by way of
establishing 'that tug's proper sight picture.'

The (one) time (on a BFR) I messed about with 'below the wake' towing, it was
immediately obvious when one's sight picture 'needed vertical refinement' from
the empennage entering the wake as one 'drifted too high.' Too low, and
'visual alarm' and a crick in one's neck were obvious telltales!

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[Charlie Quebec]

T8 You’ve made it perfectly clear you will stick to your view, regardless of the obvious extra risk you put your tow pilots in. Ive read plenty thanks and the facts are clear to me,
as are the physics. Let’s put it really simply for you, we don’t have kiting incidents from low tow. Even you should understand that..

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Deep breath........

We all have our say and thoughts.

I can't say a dumb move on the glider end won't hurt/kill the tug pilot. Sorta regardless of what tow position you started in.
I am curious if any meaningful data exists that show a safer tow position.

Harsh choice of words, but as T8 stated, "out of control is out of control".

Soooo....let's attempt to keep this civil and "maybe" we learn something worthwhile.....

[Duster[_2_]]

The NTSB has just issued the Final Report with Probable Cause on this accident:

Probable Cause and Findings
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be:
The tow plane pilot's loss of airplane control for reasons that could not be determined based on
the available evidence. Contributing to the accident was the glider instructor's diversion of
attention away from the tow airplane which resulted in his delay in releasing the tow rope once
the tow plane was no longer visible from the glider cockpit.

Full Report:
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20171007X53946&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=FA

On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 7:01:48 PM UTC-5, Duster wrote:
> Though the final report w/any probable cause is scheduled for this Wednesday (3/13), there are a few details that perplex me. Video analysis (segment #2)indicates the spoiler handle starts to move aft at (in seconds?) 5.14s, then is near full aft by 9.21s until 11.13s when it "starts to move forward". Near the end of the epoch, the release handle moves several inches, then dangles, coincident with a snapping sound. The glider PIC reported deploying brakes when he saw the towplane below to the right with slack in the line. He stated,"and the[n] released the towrope." Partial to full brake handle aft for about 6 seconds, most while tug/glider still connected it seems (tho maybe wrong). Witnesses told the PIC they didn't think he pulled the tug's tail up; some of the written docs bear this out. Video stills recorded the tug's elevator position.
>

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 7:58:56 AM UTC-8, Paul Agnew wrote:
> NTSB Report
>
> https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20171007X53946&ntsbno=ERA18FA006&akey=1

Final report:

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20171007X53946&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=FA

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Someone died....sucks for the reason......truley......

As to high tow vs. low tow.....I have my preference, but will wait until REAL NUMBERS show a difference.
I will NOT say the US needs to go low tow (again, I am biased....), I will wait on numbers.
I shall say, many peeps I have flown with are improperly trained on low tow......sorta described by posts in this thread.
Yes, as mentioned by some peeps (posted or to me via email/PM), "out of control is out of control....".

I agree with out of control.......

I am out of "keeping a fine eye" on tow, but one comment I had was......."who the F makes a glider (mostly SGS-xx) that climbs on tow?
Frankly....(waiting until we fly in the NE US....)....I will pay for tows in.......
SGS-2-33
SGS-1-26
ASK-21
ASW-2xxx

My thought......is there enough forward trim to maintain EITHER tow position?
Frankly, from what I vaguely remember......a thumb behind the stick on ANYTHING is enough to maintain vertical position.
A "death grip" on the stick blows out many minor sensor inputs to correct tow flying......

I am waiting until our club flies.....I will pay for tows in quite a few ships to see.......I will report back.......

If nothing else, I learn something.......
Maybe everyone will learn something.......

As stated before.....this conversation is a ****ing match, until hard numbers, still a ****ing match...

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, March 19, 2019 at 7:54:52 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> Someone died....sucks for the reason......truley......
> ...
> I am out of "keeping a fine eye" on tow, but one comment I had was......."who the F makes a glider (mostly SGS-xx) that climbs on tow?

It may be different for heavier pilots than me, but with me solo in the 2-33, even with the ballast brick (can't fly without it), and of course with the trim full forward, I still need to push the stick forward on tow so hard that I use both hands. That is a situation that can turn tragic in a moment of distraction. Even with another person of my weight in the other seat it still requires a major stick-forward force.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, March 13, 2019 at 8:15:43 PM UTC-4, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> T8 You’ve made it perfectly clear you will stick to your view, regardless of the obvious extra risk you put your tow pilots in. Ive read plenty thanks and the facts are clear to me,
> as are the physics. Let’s put it really simply for you, we don’t have kiting incidents from low tow. Even you should understand that..

T8 is a switched on pilot and very safety conscious. I find it funny when online pilot opinions differences devolve into accusations of the 'obviously wrong' pilot being an unsafe cowboy.
As for the original question does cracking a whip from a lower position give you more time to stop the resulting force? And wouldn't you end up with more total energy in a whip cracked from a lower position? Is it even possible to uncrack a whip once energy input has reached a certain level?

[RR]

My takeaway from this mostly useful discussion is:

Low tow might provide an air "rumble strip" as the pilot is losing position, "wake him up" (pun intented) before he gets too far out of position.

I dont think these accidents are caused by a winch style rotation to the kite, but more a lack of attention that by the time it is detected, you are too far out of position (or control) to recover. A "stick shaker" at the very start of the event, might well prevent most of these accdents.


Well that and T8 is a cowboy, I have seen him in leather boots ;-)

RR

[Tango Eight]

It's worth trying to understand these accidents and being ware of "solutions" that don't address the root cause. I think I've worked harder on this than many, so I'll share my summary. For those that don't know me, I've been instructing for 3 years and have about 2000 hours in gliders and towplanes since 1986. I am not timid (thanks Rick :-)).

The Skyline accident is an outlier. Video evidence shows that the glider deck angle never gets out of normal limits. It was not a kiting event. However, it's perfectly clear that the glider PIC lost situational awareness for several seconds and left the normal tow position at very low altitude (~200' iirc). The video + audio suggest that it is likely that the towplane's elevator authority was compromised before tow separation. Although this cannot be established with certainty, we do know that the tow line angle was unusually steep and that the tension became high enough to break the rope without a slack line event. I'll bet a year's worth of tow fees you can't break a rope in this manner without compromising the tug.

The similar accident I am aware of is the Sugarbush takeoff accident in 1999.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20001211X11267&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=FA

It's similar to the Skyline accident in that it involves a reasonably experienced pilot in a modern nose hook equipped glider giving in to a cockpit distraction on departure (open canopy) and allowing the glider to fly well outside normal positional limits. It's unclear to me if this became a kiting event or not, but it's clear that the towplane's elevator authority was badly compromised. Observers stated that the tow rope was "vertical" prior to separation. The towplane was forced into the ground and came to rest inverted.

We don't have an easy way to collect statistics on the gliders involved in upset accidents and incidents. The glider type is generally not mentioned in an accident report concerning a towplane, unless the glider is also wrecked. The anecdotes I know of suggest it's most often Schweizer iron, with the 2-33 figuring prominently. The anecdotes generally suggest a kiting event as described in the work of Rollings, et al.

It's easy to see why. The stick pressure on tow cannot be trimmed out in any 2-33 I've flown. The forward stick force required to maintain formation with the tug is substantial. The departure from normal tow position (high or low, doesn't matter), should you momentarily release forward pressure for any reason, will be extreme and potentially catastrophic for the tow pilot.

[Vaughn Simon[_2_]]

On 3/19/2019 9:31 PM, wrote:

> It may be different for heavier pilots than me, but with me solo in the 2-33, even with the ballast brick (can't fly without it), and of course with the trim full forward, I still need to push the stick forward on tow so hard that I use both hands. That is a situation that can turn tragic in a moment of distraction. Even with another person of my weight in the other seat it still requires a major stick-forward force.
>

Yes, I've noticed the same in 2-33's when flying dual with light
passengers (using ballast as necessary and within CG limits). The tow
hook is low on the fuselage nose, so tow rope tension imparts an upward
force on the glider that must be countered with down elevator. It's
just the nature of the beast, and something that should be well within
the capability of any qualified pilot to handle. If there were anything
unusually dangerous about 2-33's tow characteristics, statistics would
have told us many decades ago, because your average trainer 2-33 does a
LOT of tows compared to other gliders.

Vaughn

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[son_of_flubber]

On Wednesday, March 20, 2019 at 12:24:28 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:

> Video evidence shows that the glider deck angle never gets out of normal limits.

What is Glider Deck Angle?

[Dan Marotta]

It's like the angle of the floor or the water line.Â* Basically
level(ish) flight.

On 3/20/2019 12:38 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 20, 2019 at 12:24:28 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
>
>> Video evidence shows that the glider deck angle never gets out of normal limits.
> What is Glider Deck Angle?

--
Dan, 5J

[Ernst]

On Wednesday, March 20, 2019 at 11:24:28 AM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:

This an important discussion and I can agree with a lot of the statements being made.
But I also get the feeling that there is some resignation. These are preventable accidents as longs as there are no mechanical or pilot incapacitation issues.

In response to some of Evan’s statements:
> The Skyline accident is an outlier.
Unfortunately, no.

> Video evidence shows that the glider deck angle never gets out of normal limits.
Yes, but there was no recording when the glider got out of normal tow position, because the camera was off and the PIC got distracted checking on it and switching it on again.

> It was not a kiting event.
You can quickly get out of normal tow position without “kiting�.

> The fact is, these accidents are rare.
Unfortunately, no.

Here is a list of tow plane upset accidents from the NTSB database going back to 2000 (which I could find):

26 Apr 2002, PA 18-150, SGS 2-33, USAFA, Colorado Springs, CO (DEN02GA039)
[Please go to the docket and read the PIC’s written testimony.]

21 Aug 2011, Callair A-9B, SGS 2-33, Marshall, MI (CEN11LA585)
[Tragically, the PIC of the glider was killed in a crash with his Quickie Q200 two months later.]

6 Sep 2014, PA 25-235, SGS 2-33, Warner Springs, CA (WPR14LA367)

As with Walt’s incidents, there are certainly more tow plane upsets that are not ending in a disaster and are never reported. I am aware of a CA 150-150 being pulled nose down by a transition glider pilot with only few solo flights in a glider. The tow pilot could not release the Schweizer hook, the tow rope broke and the tow pilot was able to pull out with only a few hundred feet left.
It was also a SGS 2-33. While I agree that the 2-33 requires a lot of elevator push down on tow, this can’t be the root cause for such events. As with the two accidents discussed here, it happens with other gliders types as well.
The PIC of a glider in tow has to be able to stay consistently in the normal tow position. Flawlessly boxing the wake, not only on a quiet morning or evening, is a good indicator if you can handle abnormal tow positions. And no distractions from cameras, flight computers, passengers, canopy opening, objects falling down and so on, especially below 1,000 ft.

Ernst

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 10:54:25 AM UTC-4, Ernst wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 20, 2019 at 11:24:28 AM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
>
> This an important discussion and I can agree with a lot of the statements being made.
> But I also get the feeling that there is some resignation. These are preventable accidents as longs as there are no mechanical or pilot incapacitation issues.
>
> In response to some of Evan’s statements:
> > The Skyline accident is an outlier.
> Unfortunately, no.
>
> > Video evidence shows that the glider deck angle never gets out of normal limits.
> Yes, but there was no recording when the glider got out of normal tow position, because the camera was off and the PIC got distracted checking on it and switching it on again.
>
> > It was not a kiting event.
> You can quickly get out of normal tow position without “kiting�.
>
> > The fact is, these accidents are rare.
> Unfortunately, no.
>
> Here is a list of tow plane upset accidents from the NTSB database going back to 2000 (which I could find):
>
> 26 Apr 2002, PA 18-150, SGS 2-33, USAFA, Colorado Springs, CO (DEN02GA039)
> [Please go to the docket and read the PIC’s written testimony.]
>
> 21 Aug 2011, Callair A-9B, SGS 2-33, Marshall, MI (CEN11LA585)
> [Tragically, the PIC of the glider was killed in a crash with his Quickie Q200 two months later.]
>
> 6 Sep 2014, PA 25-235, SGS 2-33, Warner Springs, CA (WPR14LA367)
>
> As with Walt’s incidents, there are certainly more tow plane upsets that are not ending in a disaster and are never reported. I am aware of a CA 150-150 being pulled nose down by a transition glider pilot with only few solo flights in a glider. The tow pilot could not release the Schweizer hook, the tow rope broke and the tow pilot was able to pull out with only a few hundred feet left.
> It was also a SGS 2-33. While I agree that the 2-33 requires a lot of elevator push down on tow, this can’t be the root cause for such events. As with the two accidents discussed here, it happens with other gliders types as well.
> The PIC of a glider in tow has to be able to stay consistently in the normal tow position. Flawlessly boxing the wake, not only on a quiet morning or evening, is a good indicator if you can handle abnormal tow positions. And no distractions from cameras, flight computers, passengers, canopy opening, objects falling down and so on, especially below 1,000 ft.
>
> Ernst


Ernst, I agree with your comments, these accidents are preventable in the circumstances as you stated. I was well aware of the USAFA accident, I referenced this in a recent contentious discussion. I was astonished that the instructor, an Academy student and CFIG with "100 flights total" would think that with the tow plane directly below them and with a "taught" rope she could raise the nose slightly, slow up and allow him to recover his position. I HAVE NO WORDS. So much for the "brightest of the bright" as I was told they were while I was a member of the USAF.

I spent 10 years as a Nuclear Cardiovascular Technologist working closely with Cardiologists and have performed hundreds of Thallium stress tests. I had the opportunity recently to have breakfast with a retired cardiologist/friend, he read the autopsy record of the tow pilot in this case and said he would not be surprised that he might have had some sort of incapacitation in the seat as was noted in the report. As a private pilot he was surprised that someone with that cardiovascular history would have a medical certificate of any class. I can attest to the fact that having a glider KITE on you at a low altitude is a very shocking event and someone with a compromised cardiovascular system such as this individual might well become incapacitated even without evidence of a MI. This condition does not excuse the fact that this "instructor" failed to react properly and release immediately.

Your acknowledgement of the lack of video between the time the first video ended and the second one started is well taken but unfortunately the NTSB has only that to go on. I was impressed by the technical evaluation of the video that was available. Again, the idea that the tow pilot may have had an incapacitating event which my cardiologist friend said was "possible" (he thought a syncopal event was likely) from what he read does not excuse, here again another "instructor" looking away at a low altitude and failing to release immediately when he realized the position of the tow plane regardless of whose fault it might have been.

As I have previously noted I've experience two VERY SUDDEN kiting events, one at about 300-350 feet and one at 2000 feet. In the 300 foot event the student pilot failed to release when it should have been more than obvious to do so. I experienced the well known and documented condition (in big RED letters in the SSA/SSF documents) of the Schweizer release failure. The rope broke, I recovered at tree top level and the student managed to fly back to the runway. When I asked her what happened she was at a total loss for an answer. I've also had a commercial pilot add on student get seriously high on me at about 700 feet in a pattern tow, we hit a strong thermal and instead of staying in position with me he rode it up. I was not quite out of control but i did reach for the handle and look up into the mirror, all I could see was the bottom of his glider, no way he could have seen me. He should have released, he did not. It took several seconds for him to get the idea and descended and in doing so jerked me hard sideways producing a highly audible harmonic throughout the tow plane. I managed to maintain control, get him to the release point where he released. I landed and told his instrucor 'that was the worst tow I've ever experienced." He was obviously unaware of the requirement to release when he lost sight of the tow plane. I asked him to "tell me about that tow." He said he thought I was going to "fly up to him."

This and many other events (including my own glider training and I have nothing but the greatest respect and admiration for the two CFIGs from whom I learned to fly) makes me wonder if the process of telling a student to release when they lose sight of the tow plane is adequate. I remember being told "if we lose sight of the tow plane we release." I heard it a couple of times, it might have hit home more effectively if I had been told why? Althought some might intuitively understand why it is obvious to me that many do not. We practice rope breaks, why is there not some sort of practice for the loss of visual on the tow plane? (que the instructors who will say this is always part of their curriculum on every training flight) It could be incorporated into the rope brake training and I am NOT suggesting the instructor kite the glider on low tow to see what the student does, rather perhaps a startled voice at 500 feet yelling "you've just lost sight of the tow plane." If "instructors" aren't reacting quickly and appropriately, how can one expect students to do so?

I submit that every soaring event should include a reminder to the participants of this potential condition every day. When you lose sight of the tow plane...RELEASE. It should be the mantra over every glider operation.

I'm willing to bet that this might make a few CFIGs become more aware of this aspect of instruction. I'm additionally willing to bet that some will just dismiss my admonitions.

Any circumstance that might lead to the death of a tow pilot needs to be taken seriously. Any tow pilot who takes these circumstances lightly needs to rethink their position. Even with Tost releases or inverted Schweizer hooks and handles immediately available to the tow pilot in the upright, seated position, things can happen so fast that the end result will not be positive. If it's below 200 feet.....well I'm sure most of you can assume the outcome.

Fly safe my friends

Walt Connelly
FORMER Tow Pilot
7000 tows

[Walt Connelly]

On Wednesday, March 20, 2019 at 11:24:28 AM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:

This an important discussion and I can agree with a lot of the statements being made.
But I also get the feeling that there is some resignation. These are preventable accidents as longs as there are no mechanical or pilot incapacitation issues.

In response to some of Evan’s statements:
The Skyline accident is an outlier.
Unfortunately, no.

Video evidence shows that the glider deck angle never gets out of normal limits.
Yes, but there was no recording when the glider got out of normal tow position, because the camera was off and the PIC got distracted checking on it and switching it on again.

It was not a kiting event.
You can quickly get out of normal tow position without “kiting�.

The fact is, these accidents are rare.
Unfortunately, no.

Here is a list of tow plane upset accidents from the NTSB database going back to 2000 (which I could find):

26 Apr 2002, PA 18-150, SGS 2-33, USAFA, Colorado Springs, CO (DEN02GA039)
[Please go to the docket and read the PIC’s written testimony.]

21 Aug 2011, Callair A-9B, SGS 2-33, Marshall, MI (CEN11LA585)
[Tragically, the PIC of the glider was killed in a crash with his Quickie Q200 two months later.]

6 Sep 2014, PA 25-235, SGS 2-33, Warner Springs, CA (WPR14LA367)

As with Walt’s incidents, there are certainly more tow plane upsets that are not ending in a disaster and are never reported. I am aware of a CA 150-150 being pulled nose down by a transition glider pilot with only few solo flights in a glider. The tow pilot could not release the Schweizer hook, the tow rope broke and the tow pilot was able to pull out with only a few hundred feet left.
It was also a SGS 2-33. While I agree that the 2-33 requires a lot of elevator push down on tow, this can’t be the root cause for such events. As with the two accidents discussed here, it happens with other gliders types as well.
The PIC of a glider in tow has to be able to stay consistently in the normal tow position. Flawlessly boxing the wake, not only on a quiet morning or evening, is a good indicator if you can handle abnormal tow positions. And no distractions from cameras, flight computers, passengers, canopy opening, objects falling down and so on, especially below 1,000 ft.

Ernst


Ernst, I agree with your comments, these accidents are preventable in the circumstances as you stated. I was well aware of the USAFA accident, I referenced this in a recent contentious discussion. I was astonished that the instructor, an Academy student and CFIG with "100 flights total" would think that with the tow plane directly below them and with a "taught" rope she could raise the nose slightly, slow up and allow him to recover his position. I HAVE NO WORDS. So much for the "brightest of the bright" as I was told they were while I was a member of the USAF.

I spent 10 years as a Nuclear Cardiovascular Technologist working closely with Cardiologists and have performed hundreds of Thallium stress tests. I had the opportunity recently to have breakfast with a retired cardiologist/friend, he read the autopsy record of the tow pilot in this case and said he would not be surprised that he might have had some sort of incapacitation in the seat as was noted in the report. As a private pilot he was surprised that someone with that cardiovascular history would have a medical certificate of any class. I can attest to the fact that having a glider KITE on you at a low altitude is a very shocking event and someone with a compromised cardiovascular system such as this individual might well become incapacitated even without evidence of a MI. This condition does not excuse the fact that this "instructor" failed to react properly and release immediately.

Your acknowledgement of the lack of video between the time the first video ended and the second one started is well taken but unfortunately the NTSB has only that to go on. I was impressed by the technical evaluation of the video that was available. Again, the idea that the tow pilot may have had an incapacitating event which my cardiologist friend said was "possible" (he thought a syncopal event was likely) from what he read does not excuse, here again another "instructor" looking away at a low altitude and failing to release immediately when he realized the position of the tow plane regardless of whose fault it might have been.

As I have previously noted I've experience two VERY SUDDEN kiting events, one at about 300-350 feet and one at 2000 feet. In the 300 foot event the student pilot failed to release when it should have been more than obvious to do so. I experienced the well known and documented condition (in big RED letters in the SSA/SSF documents) of the Schweizer release failure. The rope broke, I recovered at tree top level and the student managed to fly back to the runway. When I asked her what happened she was at a total loss for an answer. I've also had a commercial pilot add on student get seriously high on me at about 700 feet in a pattern tow, we hit a strong thermal and instead of staying in position with me he rode it up. I was not quite out of control but i did reach for the handle and look up into the mirror, all I could see was the bottom of his glider, no way he could have seen me. He should have released, he did not. It took several seconds for him to get the idea and descended and in doing so jerked me hard sideways producing a highly audible harmonic throughout the tow plane. I managed to maintain control, get him to the release point where he released. I landed and told his instrucor 'that was the worst tow I've ever experienced." He was obviously unaware of the requirement to release when he lost sight of the tow plane. I asked him to "tell me about that tow." He said he thought I was going to "fly up to him."

This and many other events (including my own glider training and I have nothing but the greatest respect and admiration for the two CFIGs from whom I learned to fly) makes me wonder if the process of telling a student to release when they lose sight of the tow plane is adequate. I remember being told "if we lose sight of the tow plane we release." I heard it a couple of times, it might have hit home more effectively if I had been told why? Althought some might intuitively understand why it is obvious to me that many do not. We practice rope breaks, why is there not some sort of practice for the loss of visual on the tow plane? (que the instructors who will say this is always part of their curriculum on every training flight) It could be incorporated into the rope brake training and I am NOT suggesting the instructor kite the glider on low tow to see what the student does, rather perhaps a startled voice at 500 feet yelling "you've just lost sight of the tow plane." If "instructors" aren't reacting quickly and appropriately, how can one expect students to do so?

I submit that every soaring event should include a reminder to the participants of this potential condition every day. When you lose sight of the tow plane...RELEASE. It should be the mantra over every glider operation.

I'm willing to bet that this might make a few CFIGs become more aware of this aspect of instruction. I'm additionally willing to bet that some will just dismiss my admonitions.

Any circumstance that might lead to the death of a tow pilot needs to be taken seriously. Any tow pilot who takes these circumstances lightly needs to rethink their position. Even with Tost releases or inverted Schweizer hooks and handles immediately available to the tow pilot in the upright, seated position, things can happen so fast that the end result will not be positive. If it's below 200 feet.....well I'm sure most of you can assume the outcome.

Fly safe my friends

Walt Connelly
FORMER Tow Pilot
7000 tows

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

The video pause is common on most Sports cameras. I have an EKEN H8, and in the manual it says "...The camera will record 10min. clips and overwrite the earliest clip when the microSD card is full." My previous camera recorded in 5 min clips (I guess the memory was smaller). It is annoying but can be stitched together afterwards. I imagine the cam processor is not big enough to record video to memory and write to the microSD card simultaneously, so it stops recording, writes to the card, wipes internal memory, then restarts recording. I'm told that the length of video clips is longer on cams like GoPro.

[John Foster]

On Saturday, March 23, 2019 at 8:56:54 AM UTC-6, Dan Daly wrote:
> The video pause is common on most Sports cameras. I have an EKEN H8, and in the manual it says "...The camera will record 10min. clips and overwrite the earliest clip when the microSD card is full." My previous camera recorded in 5 min clips (I guess the memory was smaller). It is annoying but can be stitched together afterwards. I imagine the cam processor is not big enough to record video to memory and write to the microSD card simultaneously, so it stops recording, writes to the card, wipes internal memory, then restarts recording. I'm told that the length of video clips is longer on cams like GoPro.

My GoPro Hero 4 Silver records about 17min clips, but they do stitch together seamlessly, without any gaps. The camera does not stop recording unless the battery dies or the memory card fills up, which is different than what reportedly happened in this accident.

[Soarin Again[_2_]]

In regard to the 10/7/2017 low level tow plane crash/fatality, the final
NTSB report has now been published.

The report confirmed that the Pawnee had a Tost reel installed and
that the weak link had not failed as designed, rather the tow rope
itself broke. Additionally the report clarified that the tow planes
guillotine had not been activated and no weak link was recovered.

The NTSB metallurgist report states the following regarding the tow
rope, but no determination as to the rope mfg name or rope strength.

The received section of tow rope was visually and microscopically
examined in the NTSB Materials Laboratory.The as�received rope was
separated at one end and intentionally cut at the other as show in
attached image 1711Image57402. The ¼ inch diameter rope had a
braided outer layer covering approximately 13 twisted inner strands.
Magnified inspection of the separation found mushroomed fiber ends
and partially fused strands indicative of adiabatic heating resulting
from high strain rate overstress separations of synthetic fiber ropes.
The longest strands were twisted as if they were part of a knot at the
time of separation. A dark band with a metallic sheen was visible on
the braided cover adjacent to the separation, see attached image
1711Image57407. A hand held x�ray alloy analyzer revealed
significant amounts of aluminum in the darkest part of the band.

The docket did not include any line crew statements in regard to what
weak link may have been used for the tow.

A reasonable question for those World-Wide operations that use Tost
reels, would be. Is it uncommon for tow ropes to break, rather than
a prescribed weak link. If this was a rare anomaly, is there
some logical reason for it happening?

M Eiler

[NG[_2_]]

On Sunday, March 24, 2019 at 12:30:03 PM UTC-4, soarin wrote:
> In regard to the 10/7/2017 low level tow plane crash/fatality, the final
> NTSB report has now been published.
>
> The report confirmed that the Pawnee had a Tost reel installed and
> that the weak link had not failed as designed, rather the tow rope
> itself broke. Additionally the report clarified that the tow planes
> guillotine had not been activated and no weak link was recovered.
>
> The NTSB metallurgist report states the following regarding the tow
> rope, but no determination as to the rope mfg name or rope strength.
>
> The received section of tow rope was visually and microscopically
> examined in the NTSB Materials Laboratory.The as�received rope was
> separated at one end and intentionally cut at the other as show in
> attached image 1711Image57402. The ¼ inch diameter rope had a
> braided outer layer covering approximately 13 twisted inner strands.
> Magnified inspection of the separation found mushroomed fiber ends
> and partially fused strands indicative of adiabatic heating resulting
> from high strain rate overstress separations of synthetic fiber ropes.
> The longest strands were twisted as if they were part of a knot at the
> time of separation. A dark band with a metallic sheen was visible on
> the braided cover adjacent to the separation, see attached image
> 1711Image57407. A hand held x�ray alloy analyzer revealed
> significant amounts of aluminum in the darkest part of the band.
>
> The docket did not include any line crew statements in regard to what
> weak link may have been used for the tow.
>
> A reasonable question for those World-Wide operations that use Tost
> reels, would be. Is it uncommon for tow ropes to break, rather than
> a prescribed weak link. If this was a rare anomaly, is there
> some logical reason for it happening?
>
> M Eiler

It is very common for a Tost reel rope to break before a white weak link (500daN) breaks. The slug on the glider end is anchored by a single overhand knot in the rope inside the slug, and with the strain from that knot, the rope is slightly weaker than the weak link. In the eight years that I towed with the system, we never broke a weak link, usually broke the rope right in front of the weak link.

[Roy B.]

Is it uncommon for tow ropes to break, rather than
> a prescribed weak link. If this was a rare anomaly, is there
> some logical reason for it happening?
>
We used the Tost reel system for many years on 2 tow planes and had the same experience: the ropes always broke near the weak link covering but not at the weak link. I suspect the issue is both the knot in the device and the constant flailing of the device and flexing of the rope near the weak link as it is rewound into the holder. We later abandoned the system.
ROY