Advice on returning to Soaring after over 20 years

[Michael[_12_]]

I am finally returning to Soaring after over 20 years, I earned a Private Glider rating in '91 and had @175 flights in 2-33/1-26 and a Private Power rating in '92 and 350hrs.
My goal: Regain currency/proficiency and purchase a standard class non-flapped glider.
Specifically I was looking for advice/opinions on how best to proceed to that goal in a short time frame (140 days)

Question 1: Is it unrealistic to train 2-3 flights a day twice or even 3 times a week?
Question 2: Start out in 2-33 or pay a little more for ASK/Grob from the start? (both options are available to me)

In the next @140 days I would like to get to 60 or more flights.

[[email protected]]

It begins by refreshing knowledge long forgotten. If you don't have it here (pointing to your head) you can't have it here (pointing to your hands.)

The details in modern text books such as the recently published "Glider Flight Training Manual" will help you regain proficiency and safety.

Tom Knauff

[[email protected]]

Fly the ASK & GROB your insurance will be cheaper when you buy your own ship

[[email protected]]

> Question 1: Is it unrealistic to train 2-3 flights a day twice or even 3 times a week?

Absolutely realistic, and even preferred with a quality Instructor. That's how I got my instruction years ago. Only flying once a week (as offered by the local club) would have stretched primary instruction out to several months. Instead, I soloed in less than 30 days.

> Question 2: Start out in 2-33 or pay a little more for ASK/Grob from the start? (both options are available to me)

Definitely go for the Grob or ASK. You already have flight control experience. Don't waste the money on a 2-33. I realize it is the foundation of US Soaring instruction, but I refused to even sit in one. I went for the G-103 and did not have to learn how differently a "modern" glider flies from the 2-33.
>
> In the next @140 days I would like to get to 60 or more flights.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 9:33:13 AM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
> I am finally returning to Soaring after over 20 years, I earned a Private Glider rating in '91 and had @175 flights in 2-33/1-26 and a Private Power rating in '92 and 350hrs.
> My goal: Regain currency/proficiency and purchase a standard class non-flapped glider.
> Specifically I was looking for advice/opinions on how best to proceed to that goal in a short time frame (140 days)
>
> Question 1: Is it unrealistic to train 2-3 flights a day twice or even 3 times a week?
> Question 2: Start out in 2-33 or pay a little more for ASK/Grob from the start? (both options are available to me)
>
> In the next @140 days I would like to get to 60 or more flights.

The glider you fly is much less important than the quality of the facility and instruction available. There is value in flying more modern trainer, but this is commonly over stated. Flying a few different ships exercises basics in slightly different ways.
Having flown with lots of returning lapsed pilots my observation is that getting in the seat flying skills back may not be all that hard. Getting the knowledge back, and current, is harder, less fun and interesting, and hugely important. This is particularly true for someone who will not have to take a new practical test with and examiner.
Good luck and welcome back.
UH

[Bruce Hoult]

On Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 5:33:13 PM UTC+3, Michael wrote:
> I am finally returning to Soaring after over 20 years, I earned a Private Glider rating in '91 and had @175 flights in 2-33/1-26 and a Private Power rating in '92 and 350hrs.
> My goal: Regain currency/proficiency and purchase a standard class non-flapped glider.
> Specifically I was looking for advice/opinions on how best to proceed to that goal in a short time frame (140 days)
>
> Question 1: Is it unrealistic to train 2-3 flights a day twice or even 3 times a week?
> Question 2: Start out in 2-33 or pay a little more for ASK/Grob from the start? (both options are available to me)

Have a think about the average length of flight in each, and then figure out the cost of flying per hour once you include launches.

Unless you've got a great house thermal or ridge I think you'll find the glass ships work out cheaper. As well as preparing you better for your own glider -- for example by developing cross-country skills.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

In general, I agree.

Since most of your glider time is in 2-33/1-26, I suggest the first few flights be in a 2-33 if you can. Keep the variables down to a minimum getting back into the game. Don't add a new type of ship onto remembering how to fly.
Moving to a glass trainer after that is fine, you've sorta gotten back into it and yes, could help your insurance down the road when you buy a single seater.
It's the old, "they're exactly the same, only different!".

Unless doing patterns, a few flights per day is about max, let info soak in. Doing several days per week, great.
Get a current FAR (assuming US) and start reading. Quite a few changes since 9/11. FAR's are great if you have trouble sleeping at night, read a handful of pages and crash out....soundly.

Other than that, congrats coming back into the sport.

PS, ex-CFIG that has brought a few back after a long layoff due to family/job pressures.

[[email protected]]

Interesting question that doesn't get asked very often.

I've come back three times from lapses of 3-5 years each time. Because I had been flying for 20 years before my first hiatus, the stick-and-rudder stuff came back very fast. That was not the case when I used to arrive home from college when I'd only been flying a few years, which sounds more like the OP's situation.

I checked out in 2-33s each time and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend that again for one or more initial flights especially--as OH notes--since more of your time was in that glider. As UH said, that's less important than finding a quality facility and an instructor who will take the time to bring you back up to speed the right way. [I was extremely fortunate in being guided by UH, OH, and P3]. Then you can move on to a higher-performance trainer for subsequent flights.

There are some things that you will (re)acquire over many hours (e.g., coordinated flight, speed control) and other things at least as much by repetition (towing, landing). So I would argue that minimizing the number of flights isn't necessarily always better.

I also agree with UH that it's easier to re-acquire the stick-and-rudder feel than the knowledge necessary to fly safely. I checked out in a 2-33 and jumped back into my 15M flapped glider immediately after a 5 year layoff. But I spent the rest of the summer carefully getting comfortable flying locally and then cross country, always aware that it was taking more time than I wished to come all the way back up the curve.

But that's part of the challenge, yes? Just like soaring in general: there's always a new challenge.

Chip Bearden

[Mike the Strike]

On Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:02:26 AM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> In general, I agree.
>
> Since most of your glider time is in 2-33/1-26, I suggest the first few flights be in a 2-33 if you can. Keep the variables down to a minimum getting back into the game. Don't add a new type of ship onto remembering how to fly.
> Moving to a glass trainer after that is fine, you've sorta gotten back into it and yes, could help your insurance down the road when you buy a single seater.
> It's the old, "they're exactly the same, only different!".
>
> Unless doing patterns, a few flights per day is about max, let info soak in. Doing several days per week, great.
> Get a current FAR (assuming US) and start reading. Quite a few changes since 9/11. FAR's are great if you have trouble sleeping at night, read a handful of pages and crash out....soundly.
>
> Other than that, congrats coming back into the sport.
>
> PS, ex-CFIG that has brought a few back after a long layoff due to family/job pressures.

I still remember (and mostly obey) my early German instructor who told me never to do more than one new thing at a time. New site - use a familiar ship; new ship, use a familiar site; long break from flying - use a familiar ship at a familiar site.

Not a fan of the Gollywomper, though!

Mike

[Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas]

Welcome back!

Year round at Marfa Gliders in southwest Texas I offer a "Rusty Pilot" course so you can refresh your skills and knowledge, rediscover precise and relaxed flying, make consistent accuracy landings, enhance your risk management, plus my favorite subject to teach, efficient thermaling. Some pilots who have transitioned to my nice ASK-21 say it is easier to fly than a SGS 2-33.

Bless the Schweizer brothers for the SGS 2-33 training glider but in this century, our efficient "glass" sailplanes help you to explore, stay up longer and push through a headwind to the next thermal. When (hopefully not if) you purchase a modern sailplane your insurance may require that you having logged some "glass" flight hours. (Start shopping the classifieds at wingsandwheels.com!)

Marfa, Texas, is located near the scenic Davis Mountains and Big Bend National Park. Airport elevation is almost 5,000' MSL on a grassy plateau. (No oil beneath us, just a huge aquifer of water!) El Paso (ELP) is the nearest airline terminal. I have a two bedroom guest cottage with a large kitchen and classroom area for visiting students next to my home in Marfa. Marfa Airport (MRF) has several long runways and is just 3 miles north of Marfa town, a destination for artists, writers and musicians.

Marfa Airport is the site of the 15th National Landmark of Soaring plaque and where "The Sun Ship Game" movie was filmed in 1969. Yep, I was there. Just logged my 50th year in soaring (but I'm still just the kid on the airport!)

A link to a short video about soaring at Marfa: https://vimeo.com/67137849
More training videos produced by the Soaring Safety Foundation at Marfa by request.
Contact me to discuss details and dates.

Burt
Master CFI / FAA Designated Pilot Examiner
Trustee of the Soaring Safety Foundation.
Three-time "CFI of the Year" at my local FAA FSDO.
Recipient of the SSA's Warren Eaton Award for contributions to glider training and safety.
October 2017, received the FAA Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award for 50 years in aviation.

Enough of my creds . . . I'm always open to learning new skills and knowledge to share with you.

Marfa Gliders website: www.flygliders.com
On Facebook as "Burton Compton" for your amusement.

Welcome back!

[[email protected]]

As someone who just did the same after 30-year hiatus, here's some stats.

13 flights over 2 months to solo.
28 flights over 6 months to PPL (including 3 check rides).
TT about 14h for re-training.

This in a club setting, but I'm fairly confident this could've been condensed to a couple of weeks with money and time in a commercial setting. Previous experience was all-glass in Finland (about 70 hours over 3 years), all winch. Re-training was all aerotow in L-23/2-33/1-23.

The biggest thing for me was to get myself back to doing what I knew I should be doing (coordination. etc). The other aspects other people keep mentioning, like knowledge to fly safely was all re-learnt since previous area was flatlands with plenty of places to land safely and current area is pretty much the opposite (Northern New England). I've yet to venture more than 5 miles away whereas I had done some XC 30 years ago.

Regarding 2-seaters, I don't think it matters. While 2-33 isn't the nicest/prettiest/best performing 2-seater out there, it does the job just fine and actually makes planning more important since you might not make the runway you thought you would in strong winds/sink. The only downside to 2-33 with my weight (200lbs) is that it's really hard to do spin entries. I doubt if my current club had the Puchacz/Janus C would've made a difference.

Doing main gear landings vs. fully held off landings was also a bit of a difference, but you shouldn't have that issue.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 7:33:13 AM UTC-7, Michael wrote:
> I am finally returning to Soaring after over 20 years, I earned a Private Glider rating in '91 and had @175 flights in 2-33/1-26 and a Private Power rating in '92 and 350hrs.
> My goal: Regain currency/proficiency and purchase a standard class non-flapped glider.
> Specifically I was looking for advice/opinions on how best to proceed to that goal in a short time frame (140 days)
>
> Question 1: Is it unrealistic to train 2-3 flights a day twice or even 3 times a week?
> Question 2: Start out in 2-33 or pay a little more for ASK/Grob from the start? (both options are available to me)
>
> In the next @140 days I would like to get to 60 or more flights.

Flying is like riding a bike. You'll be a bit wobbly at first, but it will return quickly. Sent you a PM but no response. So where do you reside?

Frank Whiteley

[[email protected]]

All, thanks for the words of wisdom posted to my questions.
I appreciate the advice, from the right instructor and training to the right glider. I am pleased to hear many comments that my goals do not seem to be too lofty. And I am confident that my instructor/ instructors will help guide me safely and efficiently as I progress. I am hoping that long lost skills return and am looking forward to continued learning. I don’t have competitions in mind, rather want to gain enough skills to safely fly my own ship this coming spring, then spend the rest of the year getting to know the glider.
Life is far to short to wait.....
Thanks

[Boots]

On Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 9:33:13 AM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
> I am finally returning to Soaring after over 20 years, I earned a Private Glider rating in '91 and had @175 flights in 2-33/1-26 and a Private Power rating in '92 and 350hrs.
> My goal: Regain currency/proficiency and purchase a standard class non-flapped glider.
> Specifically I was looking for advice/opinions on how best to proceed to that goal in a short time frame (140 days)
>
> Question 1: Is it unrealistic to train 2-3 flights a day twice or even 3 times a week?
> Question 2: Start out in 2-33 or pay a little more for ASK/Grob from the start? (both options are available to me)
>
> In the next @140 days I would like to get to 60 or more flights.

I think this should be totally realistic. When I first started (almost 30 years ago) I did 37 flights in my first 4 weekends, and another 30 in the month after that. So if you are motivated, it should not be a problem.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 9:33:13 AM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
> I am finally returning to Soaring after over 20 years, I earned a Private Glider rating in '91 and had @175 flights in 2-33/1-26 and a Private Power rating in '92 and 350hrs.
> My goal: Regain currency/proficiency and purchase a standard class non-flapped glider.
> Specifically I was looking for advice/opinions on how best to proceed to that goal in a short time frame (140 days)
>
> Question 1: Is it unrealistic to train 2-3 flights a day twice or even 3 times a week?
> Question 2: Start out in 2-33 or pay a little more for ASK/Grob from the start? (both options are available to me)
>
> In the next @140 days I would like to get to 60 or more flights.


Certainly sounds familiar, I also took a long break from soaring for almost 27 years. I was very fortunate to fly and log almost 2500 hours in my early years, most of this time was in mostly high performance glass birds like the ASW20 and Ventus along with many others. About 18 months ago I decided to get back into soaring, I guess it would be my final glide in a sport that I thoroughly enjoyed. I contacted a friend who is a CFIG and took a couple of tows around the patch and off to the sky I went. I also bought an ASW24 and my wife and I both fly the 24 very often. Just yesterday I spent almost 3 hours dancing around the sky on the east coast of Florida.
I would only say to you get in the sky and enjoy the great sport! not much has changed, except the instruments and unfortunately you don't see many young faces doing what the both of us enjoy so much. Bob

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

I returned to soaring after a 15 year hiatus from flying gliders and 6 years since I had flown anything. Soaring and the avionics had changed much, for the better. The other change was significantly less private pilots flying on the weekend. Get a good instructor (much easier in soaring than power planes
) aand fly often as possible.

On Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 6:33:13 AM UTC-8, Michael wrote:
> I am finally returning to Soaring after over 20 years, I earned a Private Glider rating in '91 and had @175 flights in 2-33/1-26 and a Private Power rating in '92 and 350hrs.
> My goal: Regain currency/proficiency and purchase a standard class non-flapped glider.
> Specifically I was looking for advice/opinions on how best to proceed to that goal in a short time frame (140 days)
>
> Question 1: Is it unrealistic to train 2-3 flights a day twice or even 3 times a week?
> Question 2: Start out in 2-33 or pay a little more for ASK/Grob from the start? (both options are available to me)
>
> In the next @140 days I would like to get to 60 or more flights.

[Clemens Ceipek]

This year I returned to soaring after 30 years (I had got my license at the age of 16 and quit when I was 20). As others have mentioned already you don’t forget what you learned when you we were young. What helped me a lot, though, was practicing on the Condor Soaring simulator before I started for real. If you go that route you have to get rudder pedals so you practice coordination. A head tracker is invaluable, too, so you can look around like you do in real life. Some things are actually harder in Condor, especially flying aerotows and landings. But I had mastered it and started to actively flew competitions as a member of the Condor Club, which is also a lot of fun. That’s great cross country practice and you really learn thermal centering, ridge flying, speed management, etc. I had about 100 hours on the simulator when I got back into a real glider. From the first flight it was like second nature. I had my license back after 5 days and was flying several five-hour cross country flights the next week. I doubt any of that would have been anywhere near as easy had I not the simulator practice. It would also have cost a lot more money. You might invest $300 in a good simulator setup, that’s way cheaper than re-gaining an equivalent experience in a real plane.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Sunday, November 19, 2017 at 6:00:34 AM UTC+3, Clemens Ceipek wrote:
> What helped me a lot, though, was practicing on the Condor Soaring simulator before I started for real. If you go that route you have to get rudder pedals so you practice coordination.

Condor is great. At our club if time & manpower permits we put trial flight people into a real glider cockpit (from a crashed Cirrus) with Condor hooked to the real controls and a huge TV for a few minutes. It improves what they get out of a 15 or 20 minute initial flight a lot.

For myself at home, I find that a gaming joystick with twist for the rudder works fine, both for turn coordination in the air and things like dealing with crosswinds on the ground.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Saturday, November 18, 2017 at 8:11:54 PM UTC-7, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Sunday, November 19, 2017 at 6:00:34 AM UTC+3, Clemens Ceipek wrote:
> > What helped me a lot, though, was practicing on the Condor Soaring simulator before I started for real. If you go that route you have to get rudder pedals so you practice coordination.
>
> Condor is great. At our club if time & manpower permits we put trial flight people into a real glider cockpit (from a crashed Cirrus) with Condor hooked to the real controls and a huge TV for a few minutes. It improves what they get out of a 15 or 20 minute initial flight a lot.
>
> For myself at home, I find that a gaming joystick with twist for the rudder works fine, both for turn coordination in the air and things like dealing with crosswinds on the ground.

I visited a club recently with one of the Mach 0.1 setups. At least a couple of the instructors are using it with students. $8US/hour for the simulator, which seems a sensible price when you think about it.

Frank Whiteley

[Dunflyin]

I am surprised that in all the replies nobody has mentioned the
phrase that I kept being told when I returned to gliding after a
long break - “We don’t do it that way any more”.

Pre-takeoff checks, CBSIFTCB. No, it is now CBSIFTCBE.

Raise my index finger and call “take up slack”. No, not any more.

Religiously comply with the maximum winch launch speed at all
times. Not any more. Now extra speed is accepted/preferred
during the initial part of the launch. 15 knots above the placard
speed is not a problem.

Once the glider is established in the climb, keep pulling the stick
back to maintain 50 knots or 48 knots if you are really trying for
maximum height. No, we DEFINITELY do not do that any more.

Flying the circuit, turn 90 degrees from downwind to base leg.
No, now it is two 45 degree turns.

All gliders were moved by hand, now they are towed. Gliders
were landed back at the launch point, aiming for two or three
wingspans from any glider waiting for a launch. Launches were
not delayed by gliders overruning the launch point.

To achieve a fast launch rate, the strop / weak link was not
changed between launches - K21, K13 and Ka8 were all launched
using the same weak link. We DEFINITELY do not do that any more.

A downwind landing was frowned upon. Now it is an acceptable
option following a failed launch or other contingency.

What other changes to procedures have returning pilots noticed?

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sun, 19 Nov 2017 19:23:27 +0100, John wrote:

> Dunflyin wrote:
>
>>I am surprised that in all the replies nobody has mentioned the phrase
>>that I kept being told when I returned to gliding after a long break -
>>“We don’t do it that way any moreâ€?.
>>
>>Pre-takeoff checks, CBSIFTCB. No, it is now CBSIFTCBE.
>>
>>Raise my index finger and call “take up slackâ€?. No, not any
more.
>>
>>Religiously comply with the maximum winch launch speed at all times.
>>Not any more. Now extra speed is accepted/preferred during the initial
>>part of the launch. 15 knots above the placard speed is not a problem.
>>
>>Once the glider is established in the climb, keep pulling the stick back
>>to maintain 50 knots or 48 knots if you are really trying for maximum
>>height. No, we DEFINITELY do not do that any more.
>>
>>Flying the circuit, turn 90 degrees from downwind to base leg.
>>No, now it is two 45 degree turns.
>>
>>All gliders were moved by hand, now they are towed. Gliders were landed
>>back at the launch point, aiming for two or three wingspans from any
>>glider waiting for a launch. Launches were not delayed by gliders
>>overruning the launch point.
>>
>>To achieve a fast launch rate, the strop / weak link was not changed
>>between launches - K21, K13 and Ka8 were all launched using the same
>>weak link. We DEFINITELY do not do that any more.
>>
>>A downwind landing was frowned upon. Now it is an acceptable option
>>following a failed launch or other contingency.
>>
>>What other changes to procedures have returning pilots noticed?
>
> It costs more.
>
> Gliders have a lot of electronic kit.
>
> Your airfield is under pressure from from "developers" who want to turn
> it into a housing estate or a "retail opportunity".
>
> Your club has a Child Protection Officer.

Some of the private gliders have jet engines while others have two-bladed
folding props on each side of their nose.

The flying list at the launch point has been replaced by a booking system.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Dan Marotta]

"Pilots" now want cell phone mounts and cup holders.

On 11/19/2017 11:50 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Nov 2017 19:23:27 +0100, John wrote:
>
>> Dunflyin wrote:
>>
>>> I am surprised that in all the replies nobody has mentioned the phrase
>>> that I kept being told when I returned to gliding after a long break -
>>> “We don’t do it that way any moreâ€?.
>>>
>>> Pre-takeoff checks, CBSIFTCB. No, it is now CBSIFTCBE.
>>>
>>> Raise my index finger and call “take up slackâ€?. No, not any
> more.
>>> Religiously comply with the maximum winch launch speed at all times.
>>> Not any more. Now extra speed is accepted/preferred during the initial
>>> part of the launch. 15 knots above the placard speed is not a problem.
>>>
>>> Once the glider is established in the climb, keep pulling the stick back
>>> to maintain 50 knots or 48 knots if you are really trying for maximum
>>> height. No, we DEFINITELY do not do that any more.
>>>
>>> Flying the circuit, turn 90 degrees from downwind to base leg.
>>> No, now it is two 45 degree turns.
>>>
>>> All gliders were moved by hand, now they are towed. Gliders were landed
>>> back at the launch point, aiming for two or three wingspans from any
>>> glider waiting for a launch. Launches were not delayed by gliders
>>> overruning the launch point.
>>>
>>> To achieve a fast launch rate, the strop / weak link was not changed
>>> between launches - K21, K13 and Ka8 were all launched using the same
>>> weak link. We DEFINITELY do not do that any more.
>>>
>>> A downwind landing was frowned upon. Now it is an acceptable option
>>> following a failed launch or other contingency.
>>>
>>> What other changes to procedures have returning pilots noticed?
>> It costs more.
>>
>> Gliders have a lot of electronic kit.
>>
>> Your airfield is under pressure from from "developers" who want to turn
>> it into a housing estate or a "retail opportunity".
>>
>> Your club has a Child Protection Officer.
> Some of the private gliders have jet engines while others have two-bladed
> folding props on each side of their nose.
>
> The flying list at the launch point has been replaced by a booking system.
>
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

So....some want an "athletic supporter"?

Never mind......

Maybe they don't like how teams are selected......

Never mind......different thread.......errrrr....threads.......Wilbur.....or ......errrrr....never Frikkin mind.


Ignore this post......ugh.....


Sigh.....is it Monday yet?