Pawnee Tost 337 completed after the fall of 2003?

[Stewart Kissel]

CUT-
It appears the FAA is going to stop field approvals
for tow hooks.
Their latest statement,' there must be an STC or be
listed in the Type
Certification Data Sheet for the aircraft'
CUT-

Our mechanic has just encountered this situation, specifically
a US registered Pawnee that has not towed before.
He has been told he needs a STC. Has anyone come up
with a work-around for this?

[Bob Kuykendall]

Earlier, Stewart Kissel wrote:

> ...Our mechanic has just encountered this
> situation, specifically a US registered Pawnee
> that has not towed before. He has been told
> he needs a STC. Has anyone come up with
> a work-around for this?

Air Sailing has recently managed to certify their Pawnee
for towing, and indeed it wasn't easy. You might contact
Jim Hayes of Air Sailing for some guidance.

Bob K.

[Stewart Kissel]

At 01:18 13 May 2004, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
>Earlier, Stewart Kissel wrote:
>
>> ...Our mechanic has just encountered this
>> situation, specifically a US registered Pawnee
>> that has not towed before. He has been told
>> he needs a STC. Has anyone come up with
>> a work-around for this?
>
>Air Sailing has recently managed to certify their Pawnee
>for towing, and indeed it wasn't easy. You might contact
>Jim Hayes of Air Sailing for some guidance.
>
>Bob K.
>
Thanks for the HU Bob, I sent an email to Jim and Rick
W. to glean information. I see from reading their
newsletter it took them 5 months to get through the
approval process. I suppose I could make some snide
comment at this point about our tax dollars at work,
but that would be counter-productive :)

[Tim Mara]

not true...........at least it is not an official FAA policy.....
FSDO's can and most still will do field approvals......however, some FSDO's
won't, that's a local decision.....if your local FSDO won't you can check
with other FSDO's nearby who might.the Local FSDO won't necessarily like
this and then might agree to do the approval.....use some diplomacy and you
should get cooperation....
tim
"Stewart Kissel" > wrote in
message ...
> CUT-
> It appears the FAA is going to stop field approvals
> for tow hooks.
> Their latest statement,' there must be an STC or be
> listed in the Type
> Certification Data Sheet for the aircraft'
> CUT-
>
> Our mechanic has just encountered this situation, specifically
> a US registered Pawnee that has not towed before.
> He has been told he needs a STC. Has anyone come up
> with a work-around for this?
>
>
>

[Roy Bourgeois]

I am currently working this problem in Massachusetts and have some =
thoughts to share with anyone doing the same. If the aircraft has never =
towed before - I strongly recomend starting out with the standard =
Schweizer hook and not the Tost unit. This is essential if it's a =
Restricted Pawnee. The Tost unit requires the FAA ASI (the guy who OKs =
the 337) to contact "FAA Engineering" - and that creates a host of =
problems that you don't want to complicate the change in use.=20

Pleae feel free to contact me off net.

roy

[Stewart Kissel]

Yep, we got a Restricted Pawnee that has never towed.
And I talked the owner into the safer and more expensive
Tost unit. And the FSDO says no field approval, period.
I got some good information from the AirSailing group
who have had two Pawneess approved recently, and waiting
to hear back from Stephen Northcraft in regards to
the SSA liaison to the FAA on this subject.





At 16:30 13 May 2004, Roy Bourgeois wrote:
>I am currently working this problem in Massachusetts
>and have some =
>thoughts to share with anyone doing the same. If the
>aircraft has never =
>towed before - I strongly recomend starting out with
>the standard =
>Schweizer hook and not the Tost unit. This is essential
>if it's a =
>Restricted Pawnee. The Tost unit requires the FAA
>ASI (the guy who OKs =
>the 337) to contact 'FAA Engineering' - and that creates
>a host of =
>problems that you don't want to complicate the change
>in use.=20
>
>Pleae feel free to contact me off net.
>
>roy
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Stewart Kissel]

Roy B.-

I sent you a couple of emails using my hotmail account,
you might check your spam filter if they don't show
up in your inbox.




At 19:30 13 May 2004, Stewart Kissel wrote:
>Yep, we got a Restricted Pawnee that has never towed.
> And I talked the owner into the safer and more expensive
>Tost unit. And the FSDO says no field approval, period.
> I got some good information from the AirSailing group
>who have had two Pawneess approved recently, and waiting
>to hear back from Stephen Northcraft in regards to
>the SSA liaison to the FAA on this subject.
>
>
>
>
>
>At 16:30 13 May 2004, Roy Bourgeois wrote:
>>I am currently working this problem in Massachusetts
>>and have some =
>>thoughts to share with anyone doing the same. If the
>>aircraft has never =
>>towed before - I strongly recomend starting out with
>>the standard =
>>Schweizer hook and not the Tost unit. This is essential
>>if it's a =
>>Restricted Pawnee. The Tost unit requires the FAA
>>ASI (the guy who OKs =
>>the 337) to contact 'FAA Engineering' - and that creates
>>a host of =
>>problems that you don't want to complicate the change
>>in use.=20
>>
>>Pleae feel free to contact me off net.
>>
>>roy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

[Bob C]

Very simple. Write your congressman. Be tactful,
but explain that there are hundreds of Pawnees around
the country safely towing gliders. Also explain that
the FAA is hindering commerce. It's much easier to
start at the top than to try to slug your way up the
chain of command. Just my $.02 worth, but it does
work.



At 19:30 13 May 2004, Stewart Kissel wrote:
>Yep, we got a Restricted Pawnee that has never towed.
> And I talked the owner into the safer and more expensive
>Tost unit. And the FSDO says no field approval, period.
> I got some good information from the AirSailing group
>who have had two Pawneess approved recently, and waiting
>to hear back from Stephen Northcraft in regards to
>the SSA liaison to the FAA on this subject.
>
>
>
>
>
>At 16:30 13 May 2004, Roy Bourgeois wrote:
>>I am currently working this problem in Massachusetts
>>and have some =
>>thoughts to share with anyone doing the same. If the
>>aircraft has never =
>>towed before - I strongly recomend starting out with
>>the standard =
>>Schweizer hook and not the Tost unit. This is essential
>>if it's a =
>>Restricted Pawnee. The Tost unit requires the FAA
>>ASI (the guy who OKs =
>>the 337) to contact 'FAA Engineering' - and that creates
>>a host of =
>>problems that you don't want to complicate the change
>>in use.=20
>>
>>Pleae feel free to contact me off net.
>>
>>roy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

[Jim Phoenix]

Bob C > wrote in message >...
> Very simple. Write your congressman. >
>

I would bet good money it's much faster just to hire a structures DER
and get an 8110-3 form that FAA approves the data for the
installation. Then pay your local A&P to install it and then pay your
local IA to inspect the installation and approve the 337 and it's
done.

No need to bother the local FSDO at all.

FAA approved (upside-down, right side up, Tost, Schweizer,
whatever)for the cost of a DER, A&P and IA. If you want only to save
money and have lots of time to wait while new policy is written and
approved, maybe you could call your congressman.

Also, a DER-approved 8110-3 should pave the way for approval for our
friends across the various ponds that have bi-laterals with the US
FAA, and there are many of those.

DER list is available on the web:

http://www.faa.gov/certification/aircraft/av-info/dst/DERDirectory.pdf

Lots of other guidance and policy is on the web as well, the 8300.10,
Volume 1 has a chart that shows exactly what alterations the local
FSDO can approve and what they cannot. STC process sounds exciting,
but is merely time-consuming and expensive, and eventually profitable
if you sell your STC'd (e.g. Pawnee mirror installation) to other
clubs or operators.

Jim

[Stewart Kissel]

Update-

Jim Hays was a huge help to us, he is providing the
documents needed to take a Restricted Pawnee back to
Standard. In theory once this has occured, some FSDO's
may approve the TOST 337. There is a little more to
it then that, but that is the basic concept. Jim has
put a huge amount of time in pioneering this road.

[Stewart Kissel]

At 15:54 13 May 2004, Tim Mara wrote:
>not true...........at least it is not an official FAA
>policy.....
>FSDO's can and most still will do field approvals......however,
>some FSDO's


Tim-

If you can provide the name of a FSDO who will do field
approvals on a Restricted Pawnee, this would be a big
help.

In the mean time, it appears doing the conversion from
Restricted to Standard Certification and then going
for the 337 is the only procedure currently working.
Some of the paperwork for doing this made its way
up from Argentina. The Tost does have a STC for install
on the Pawnee in a couple of European countries, and
this helps with the US 337 process.

[Tim Mara]

what you're asking for is to change the category of the aircraft, that you
would need to do by making changes if possible in the aircraft itself and
may not always be possible. If you have an aircraft that was certificated
for Spraying only, or similar then that is what it was certified to do.that
and nothing more......you'll need to work with the local FAA to see if your
aircraft can meet the standards for the standard or utility category. Once
you have the aircraft category correct to allow towing then installing the
TOST or any other glider towing system is possible, but until then....sorry,
that's a whole new bag of worms.....
tim

>
> If you can provide the name of a FSDO who will do field
> approvals on a Restricted Pawnee, this would be a big
> help.
>
> In the mean time, it appears doing the conversion from
> Restricted to Standard Certification and then going
> for the 337 is the only procedure currently working.
> Some of the paperwork for doing this made its way
> up from Argentina. The Tost does have a STC for install
> on the Pawnee in a couple of European countries, and
> this helps with the US 337 process.
>
>
>

[Sam Fly]

Type Certificate # 2A10 for Restricted category and Type Certificate #
2A8 for Normal category. The Pawnee is approved for either certificate.

I addressed this problem in January 2004 with the FAA. The SSA
Government Liasion Director was supposed to address these problems.

Sam Fly
Texas Soaring Association

Tim Mara wrote:

> what you're asking for is to change the category of the aircraft, that you
> would need to do by making changes if possible in the aircraft itself and
> may not always be possible. If you have an aircraft that was certificated
> for Spraying only, or similar then that is what it was certified to do.that
> and nothing more......you'll need to work with the local FAA to see if your
> aircraft can meet the standards for the standard or utility category. Once
> you have the aircraft category correct to allow towing then installing the
> TOST or any other glider towing system is possible, but until then....sorry,
> that's a whole new bag of worms.....
> tim
>
>
>>If you can provide the name of a FSDO who will do field
>>approvals on a Restricted Pawnee, this would be a big
>>help.
>>
>>In the mean time, it appears doing the conversion from
>>Restricted to Standard Certification and then going
>>for the 337 is the only procedure currently working.
>> Some of the paperwork for doing this made its way
>>up from Argentina. The Tost does have a STC for install
>>on the Pawnee in a couple of European countries, and
>>this helps with the US 337 process.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

[Stewart Kissel]

This Friday the Denver FSDO is going to inspect the
Pawnee at Buena Vista, Co for spray gear removal and
tank sealed. He has already seen the new Tost, radios
and transponder. He will then issue a Standard certificate
including the aforementioned additions, and no 337
will be required. Or at least that is the plan.



At 00:12 17 May 2004, Sam Fly wrote:
>Type Certificate # 2A10 for Restricted category and
>Type Certificate #
>2A8 for Normal category. The Pawnee is approved for
>either certificate.
>
>I addressed this problem in January 2004 with the FAA.
> The SSA
>Government Liasion Director was supposed to address
>these problems.
>
>Sam Fly
>Texas Soaring Association
>
>Tim Mara wrote:
>
>> what you're asking for is to change the category of
>>the aircraft, that you
>> would need to do by making changes if possible in
>>the aircraft itself and
>> may not always be possible. If you have an aircraft
>>that was certificated
>> for Spraying only, or similar then that is what it
>>was certified to do.that
>> and nothing more......you'll need to work with the
>>local FAA to see if your
>> aircraft can meet the standards for the standard or
>>utility category. Once
>> you have the aircraft category correct to allow towing
>>then installing the
>> TOST or any other glider towing system is possible,
>>but until then....sorry,
>> that's a whole new bag of worms.....
>> tim
>>
>>
>>>If you can provide the name of a FSDO who will do field
>>>approvals on a Restricted Pawnee, this would be a big
>>>help.
>>>
>>>In the mean time, it appears doing the conversion from
>>>Restricted to Standard Certification and then going
>>>for the 337 is the only procedure currently working.
>>> Some of the paperwork for doing this made its way
>>>up from Argentina. The Tost does have a STC for install
>>>on the Pawnee in a couple of European countries, and
>>>this helps with the US 337 process.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>