Jabiru and Rotax engines

[Marco Rispoli]

I am doing some research into ultralight engines (planning to build one).

The Rotax 912S and the Jabiru 3300 are the models i am looking into.

Does anyone know how much it costs to maintain them? I just need very
generic examples to get an idea.

How much does it cost to overhaul them (one or the other)?

Any of you ever needed repairs done on them? Did you do them yourselves? How
much did it cost (wether or not did you do them yourselves)?

And how about oil changes, and replacements of parts?

Again, just general examples would be great for me to start getting an idea
of what I am getting into

Thanks a lot!!

--
Marco Rispoli - NJ, USA / PP-ASEL
My on-line aviation community -> http://www.thepilotlounge.com

[NewsGroups]

Buy the Jabiru if you want to carry tools rather than a passenger....
Lets start with adjusting the valves every 25 hours and maybe retension
the heads every 10, then add all the failures, both electrical and
mechanical add the total lack of support and silly answers like... never
heard of that before, your the first one etc etc Get the Drift.

Michael Coates X-Air Australia

Marco Rispoli wrote:
> I am doing some research into ultralight engines (planning to build one).
>
> The Rotax 912S and the Jabiru 3300 are the models i am looking into.
>
> Does anyone know how much it costs to maintain them? I just need very
> generic examples to get an idea.
>
> How much does it cost to overhaul them (one or the other)?
>
> Any of you ever needed repairs done on them? Did you do them yourselves? How
> much did it cost (wether or not did you do them yourselves)?
>
> And how about oil changes, and replacements of parts?
>
> Again, just general examples would be great for me to start getting an idea
> of what I am getting into
>
> Thanks a lot!!
>

[Marco Rispoli]

"NewsGroups" > wrote in message
...
> Buy the Jabiru if you want to carry tools rather than a passenger....
> Lets start with adjusting the valves every 25 hours and maybe retension
> the heads every 10, then add all the failures, both electrical and
> mechanical add the total lack of support and silly answers like... never
> heard of that before, your the first one etc etc Get the Drift.
>
> Michael Coates X-Air Australia
>

Hum ... ok. So I guess the Jab stinks. Do you have any experience with the
Rotax?

I am assuming that you don't have the Jabiru ... can I ask what are you
running?

Thank you for your feedback!

--
Marco Rispoli - NJ, USA / PP-ASEL
My on-line aviation community -> http://www.thepilotlounge.com

[jls]

"Marco Rispoli" > wrote in message
t...
> "NewsGroups" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Buy the Jabiru if you want to carry tools rather than a passenger....
> > Lets start with adjusting the valves every 25 hours and maybe retension
> > the heads every 10, then add all the failures, both electrical and
> > mechanical add the total lack of support and silly answers like... never
> > heard of that before, your the first one etc etc Get the Drift.
> >
> > Michael Coates X-Air Australia
> >
>
> Hum ... ok. So I guess the Jab stinks. Do you have any experience with the
> Rotax?
>
> I am assuming that you don't have the Jabiru ... can I ask what are you
> running?
>
> Thank you for your feedback!
>
> --
> Marco Rispoli - NJ, USA / PP-ASEL
> My on-line aviation community -> http://www.thepilotlounge.com

I know nothing of the Jabiru except from hearing and reading about it, which
causes me to avoid it as a choice for anything I might build.

As for the Rotax 912, 912S 100HP, and 914, I have heard both good and bad,
mostly good. However, recently I spoke with a friend who was a CFII on an
airport with a 912 in a Diamond Katana used on that airport for instruction.
He condemned the engine, said it (and a few others at other nearby airports)
were often in the shop for repairs, and says he's sure that's the big
reason -- service dependability problems -- why Diamond dropped the 912 as
a powerplant and went to Continental and Lycoming.

[David Wilson]

Marco,
Join the Jabiru newsgroup at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jabiruengines/
if you already haven't. You can also go to
http://www.suncoastjabiru.com/downloads.htm and download the engine manual.
We have a 3300 on a Fisher Horizon 2 with 43hrs. on it. Only major thing we
have done to it is to put on a bigger oil cooler. You have to do a little
work to balance out the cylinder temps. Other than that routine
maintenance. Dealer support is good in the US.
Haven't heard of any catastrophic failures. They did have some problems
with the early 2200 engines, but things are good now.
I have no experience with the 912.

I'm sure we can find people to bash both engines, it would be nice to hear
from someone who has truly experienced problems with either one.

Dave Wilson
N203ED

[Daniel]

Marco Rispoli wrote ...
>
> Hum ... ok. So I guess the Jab stinks....

Mmmm, better take that "feedback" with a grain of history:

The author had a Jabiru dealership in Australia at one time &
frequently extolled the virtues of the engine. When the rate of
exchange between the US & AD dollars got to an extreme, it became
possible to arbitrage the difference & pay Mr. Coates the Australian
retail price plus freight to the US for less than buying it at a US
dealer. This naturally caused a good deal of consternation among US
dealers & the end result was that Mr. Coates had his engine supply
shut off. Since then he's had nothing but negative things to say
about the engine. To my mind, this dichotomy in his opinions speaks
more of Mr. Coates than it does of Jabiru.

If you'd like some feedback from folks who are flying the engine,
check with Sonex builders on one of the Yahoo groups. I suggest:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sonexbuilders or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Light_Sport_Aircraft_Engines
These two groups are builder operated & you'll get honest open
opinions. Avoid any of the other Sonex groups are moderated by Sonex
LLC. They have a history of stomping pretty hard on anyone saying
anything that doesn't match their "policies".

Daniel

[Robertmudd1u]

However, recently I spoke with a friend who was a CFII on an
>airport with a 912 in a Diamond Katana used on that airport for instruction.
>He condemned the engine, said it (and a few others at other nearby airports)
>were often in the shop for repairs, and says he's sure that's the big
>reason -- service dependability problems -- why Diamond dropped the >912 as
a powerplant and went to Continental and Lycoming.

I am a CFI A,G and an A&P with an I.A.
I was a Field Service Rep. for Diamond for over a year. I received formal
training on the Rotax engines during this time.
I fly and maintain the Rotax 912 and 914, but have only flown the 912S.

Diamond uses the Lycoming in the DA40. Rotax does not make an engine powerful
enough for this aircraft.

Problems with the Rotax engines included
1. Both Rotax and Diamond did a poor job of educating mechanics on how to
maintain the engine and pilots on how to operate the engine. Pilots are
generally not very knowledgeable on engine operation. As proof I offer all the
"old wife's tales" seen even on this newsgroup.
2. The Diamond engine installation is less than ideal. "10 pounds in a 5 pound
bag".
3. A&P mechanics were not overly interested in learning something new, liquid
and air cooled, electronic ignition and in metric too.
4. The Rotax maintenance manuals are not well organised. However they are
available on line for free, as are SBs.

Some of the operators I served loved the engine and had no problems maintaining
them. These folks knew the engine frontwards and backwards. They took the time
to educate themselves.

I must admit it took me a bit of time to learn the engine but the information
is available if you care to look and ask questions. When the engine is set up
correctly, it starts like a car, hums like a Singer sewing machine and produces
rated power.

Lockwood is a good source of information, as I am sure CPS is. Lockwood seems
to be able to get me parts literally over night. I guess it is not hard to
stock parts when there are only 3 models. Diamond still supports the Rotax
powered airframes, and the two Field Service Reps, (Paul and Glen) do a great
job of answering questions.

One of the Rotax powered aircraft I maintain is a Katana DA20 A1 with a 912.
The owners lease it to a very active flying club for student training. The
owners are very happy with it and the students fly it a lot.

Another is a Katana Extreme motorglider with the 914 turbo in it. The biggest
problem with this is the waste gate shaft rusting in place because of the lack
of usage. Otherwise the engine runs great.

I change oil every 50 hrs and leave spark plugs in no more than 150 hrs. The
engine wants to be operated a lot, fly it regularly. Maintain it by the book.
At operators where problems are occurring I'll bet none of the A&Ps have formal
training on the Rotax engine and have not really read the book.

My biggest complaint is that with such a modern engine with electronic
ignition, close tolerances, high revs,a gear box, why in the world does it
have carburetors. Why not fuel injection?

It is not a Lycoming or a Contintal and can not be treated as one. Many of the
problems I saw were a direct result of lack of maintaince or operating well
past the recommended service times. It is a bit odd isn't it that this engine
has found acceptance in the rest of the world? It seems that just here in the
US there have been so many problems.

I have flown Rotax powered aircraft in good WX and bad, night and day. I'll
continue to fly ones I maintain knowing they will do good by me.

Robert Mudd

[Marco Rispoli]

"Daniel" > wrote in message
om...

> If you'd like some feedback from folks who are flying the engine,
> check with Sonex builders on one of the Yahoo groups. I suggest:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sonexbuilders or
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Light_Sport_Aircraft_Engines
> These two groups are builder operated & you'll get honest open
> opinions. Avoid any of the other Sonex groups are moderated by Sonex
> LLC. They have a history of stomping pretty hard on anyone saying
> anything that doesn't match their "policies".
>
> Daniel

Thank you!

--
Marco Rispoli - NJ, USA / PP-ASEL
My on-line aviation community -> http://www.thepilotlounge.com

[NewsGroups]

Hello all,

You have got it all wrong...... i can still sell Jabiru's but i choose
not to. We had installed about 10 or 12 on a plane we imported, a basic
UL called the X-Air. We have had nothing but trouble with those
installations and its nothing to do with the plane. Oil leaks,
electrical problems, flywheels falling off.... the list would bore you
its that long.

I am one to support anything that's good and if the problems with the
Jabiru could be resolved with the factories assistance then we would
still be supporting them but when the factory tells you to 'work it out
yourself' and their favorite is.. 'we have never seen that before - this
is the first one' then they are a company to steer clear of, there is NO
FACTORY support.

We have had engines using 1 liter per hour from the first hour, engines
leaking 1 lph from the first start... arghhh.... It makes me mad
because there is the potential there for a fantastic Australian product
and more importantly some good export dollars and some more jobs in a
rural area where everything else is shutting down.

Don't just take my word, its my opinion but do yourself a favor and go
to google and type in 'jabiru engine problems' ... you will get over
1000 hits and most are like this link to Titan Tornado.

http://www.titantornado.com/engine.html

http://www.masquito.be/progress3.htm

Read this and 10 others and you will decide that there are better engine
choices out there... and forget asking people with just a few hours on
the engine like the one below with 43 hours... ask Australian flying
schools, schools who do 1000 hours per year. Look at the AU aviation
mags.. all the adds are FOR SALE Jabiru ??? 400 hours on airframe 140
on engine.... need i say more

Regards Michael Coates X-Air Australia

David Wilson wrote:
> Marco,
> Join the Jabiru newsgroup at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jabiruengines/
> if you already haven't. You can also go to
> http://www.suncoastjabiru.com/downloads.htm and download the engine manual.
> We have a 3300 on a Fisher Horizon 2 with 43hrs. on it. Only major thing we
> have done to it is to put on a bigger oil cooler. You have to do a little
> work to balance out the cylinder temps. Other than that routine
> maintenance. Dealer support is good in the US.
> Haven't heard of any catastrophic failures. They did have some problems
> with the early 2200 engines, but things are good now.
> I have no experience with the 912.
>
> I'm sure we can find people to bash both engines, it would be nice to hear
> from someone who has truly experienced problems with either one.
>
> Dave Wilson
> N203ED
>
>

[Wallace Berry]

In article >,
" jls" > wrote:

> "Marco Rispoli" > wrote in message
> t...
> > "NewsGroups" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Buy the Jabiru if you want to carry tools rather than a passenger....
> > > Lets start with adjusting the valves every 25 hours and maybe retension
> > > the heads every 10, then add all the failures, both electrical and
> > > mechanical add the total lack of support and silly answers like... never
> > > heard of that before, your the first one etc etc Get the Drift.
> > >
> > > Michael Coates X-Air Australia
> > >
> >
> > Hum ... ok. So I guess the Jab stinks. Do you have any experience with the
> > Rotax?
> >
> > I am assuming that you don't have the Jabiru ... can I ask what are you
> > running?
> >
> > Thank you for your feedback!
> >
> > --
> > Marco Rispoli - NJ, USA / PP-ASEL
> > My on-line aviation community -> http://www.thepilotlounge.com
>
> I know nothing of the Jabiru except from hearing and reading about it, which
> causes me to avoid it as a choice for anything I might build.
>
> As for the Rotax 912, 912S 100HP, and 914, I have heard both good and bad,
> mostly good. However, recently I spoke with a friend who was a CFII on an
> airport with a 912 in a Diamond Katana used on that airport for instruction.
> He condemned the engine, said it (and a few others at other nearby airports)
> were often in the shop for repairs, and says he's sure that's the big
> reason -- service dependability problems -- why Diamond dropped the 912 as
> a powerplant and went to Continental and Lycoming.
>
>

A close friend is factory support for a major aircraft manufacturer who
uses the 912 and 914 in some of their aircraft. He tells me that the
switch to the Continental had very little to do with engine reliability
and more to do with the Continental being a better fit in performance,
operation, and maintenance for the north american market and for
training in general. Mechanics were more comfortable working on the
Continentals and instructors were more used to the mode of operation.
Historically, newly designed airframes coupled with newly designed
engines (relatively speaking of course) has been the formula for lots of
teething problems. This particular airplane engine combination has had
relatively few problems.

The choice of a Lycoming for their 4 seat bird has nothing to do with
the reliability of Rotax engines. The 4 seater needed a180 hp engine and
Rotax did not have one at that time.

(Certified) Aircraft engine design being the excruciatingly conservative
exercise that it is. I would think it unlikely that Rotax or Jabiru have
designed in any real serious flaws. However, quality assurance problems
during fabrication and assembly have let flawed engines get out the door
for all manufacturers. Those type of flaws tend to show up sooner in
these small, high revving engines.

--
Take out the airplane for reply

[Ken Mattsson]

I know a former taxi pilot, has flown a taxi float plane (Cessna 182
turbocharged) all his working life. Now he´s retired and owns a Euro Cub
with a Rotax 912 in it. He loves it, says it´s a great engine. Of course, he
also knows how to use it and keeps it well maintened, a small task according
to him. Haven´t seen any Jabiru engines here in Finland, so I cannot comment
on these engines.

Ken

[Ron Wanttaja]

On 14 Jul 2004 03:26:36 GMT, (Robertmudd1u)
wrote:

>Problems with the Rotax engines included
>1. Both Rotax and Diamond did a poor job of educating mechanics on how to
>maintain the engine and pilots on how to operate the engine. Pilots are
>generally not very knowledgeable on engine operation.

Having no experience with the Rotax, I am a bit curious. I can understand
that there are differences in maintaining the engine, but could you give
some examples of the differences in technique, etc. as far as the pilot is
concerned?

Ron Wanttaja

[Fred the Red Shirt]

"Marco Rispoli" > wrote in message >...
> I am doing some research into ultralight engines (planning to build one).
>
> The Rotax 912S and the Jabiru 3300 are the models i am looking into.
>
>

Uh, aren't both of those engines just a bit more powerful than you
need for an ultralight? I'm assuming you are gong to use wings and
not just mount the enging on a brick.

--

FF

[Ryan Young]

(Fred the Red Shirt) wrote in message

> Uh, aren't both of those engines just a bit more powerful than you
> need for an ultralight? I'm assuming you are gong to use wings and
> not just mount the enging on a brick.

"Ultralight" means different things in different countries. The Sonex
and the Zenair Zodiac, which fly with these engines, are Ultralights
in Canada and most European countries.

[Ron Wanttaja]

On 15 Jul 2004 21:14:34 -0700, (Ryan Young) wrote:

(Fred the Red Shirt) wrote in message
>
>> Uh, aren't both of those engines just a bit more powerful than you
>> need for an ultralight? I'm assuming you are gong to use wings and
>> not just mount the enging on a brick.
>
>"Ultralight" means different things in different countries. The Sonex
>and the Zenair Zodiac, which fly with these engines, are Ultralights
>in Canada and most European countries.

My thought, too, but the original poster's .sig says he's from New
Jersey....

Ron Wanttaja