Next glider, ownership costs question?

[flgliderpilot[_2_]]

Low time pilot, 60hrs, have done some solo cross country flying but not a lot. Sold my 1-26E a few years ago (not by choice, business debt at the time).

My first thought is to jump into another 1-26 or 1-34 for a number of reasons (safety and availability). I could land my 1-26 just about anywhere!

My budget is 10K or less, and I am still saving, so in the meantime I'm wondering about inexpensive older fiberglass options such as the Libelle, etc.

Are fiberglass gliders more expensive to maintain and repair?

Easily damaged on rough landouts?

Qualified mechanics easier or harder to find, vs aluminum?

Insurance costs aluminum vs fiberglass?

Are fabric covered gliders (1-26 A,B) much more expensive to maintain?

I remember a local pilot telling me he spent a few thousand dollars re-covering his 1-26 and that it needed to be done every X number of years (I can't remember that number now).

As usual hangar space might be possible but is usually unlikely due to demand.

Any advice appreciated.

Thanks
Tom

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sun, 19 Nov 2017 08:03:10 -0800, flgliderpilot wrote:

> My budget is 10K or less, and I am still saving, so in the meantime I'm
> wondering about inexpensive older fiberglass options such as the
> Libelle, etc.
>
I fly an early Standard Libelle and love it to bits. The only damage
comment I'd make is that its doesn't have a T-tail, so there's a risk
dinging the tailplane if you land on a field which is growing stuff that
is more than 12-18 inches (30-40cm) tall. Against that, support from
Glasfaser, who hold the type certificate, is excellent for both
accessories and spares.

Most of what I've learned in the last 11 years of flying mine is here:

http://www.gregorie.org/gliding/libelle/h201_notes.html

and photos, etc. of min and what I've done to the panel etc is here:

http://www.gregorie.org/gliding/libelle/index.html


> Are fiberglass gliders more expensive to maintain and repair?
>
I don't believe so.

> Easily damaged on rough landouts?
>
See above.

Its also worth noting that Libelles are currently going up in price in
Europe and the UK: its rather nice to have an older glider that's not
depreciating!

Final comment: Std Libelles suit tall pilots just fine but aren't so good
for broad shoulders or the bigger girth pilot, but go look and sit in one
to see for yourself. Just bear in mind that you're likely to be sitting
in it for 5 hours at a stretch when you get into XC flying.

If you're in those categories and an H.205 Club Libelle comes up for
sale, go and look at it because it has:

- a much more capacious cockpit,

- hinged canopy,

- T-tail,

- more powerful airbrakes

- higher-mounted wing (shoulder- rather than mid-) than
a H.201 Standard Libelle.

It will probably quite a bit cheaper too. They don't seem to be much
behind the H.201 on performance despite the fixed undercarriage, probably
because the wing is very nicely faired to the fuselage.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[TP]

On Sunday, November 19, 2017 at 11:03:11 AM UTC-5, flgliderpilot wrote:
> Low time pilot, 60hrs, have done some solo cross country flying but not a lot. Sold my 1-26E a few years ago (not by choice, business debt at the time).
>
> My first thought is to jump into another 1-26 or 1-34 for a number of reasons (safety and availability). I could land my 1-26 just about anywhere!
>
> My budget is 10K or less, and I am still saving, so in the meantime I'm wondering about inexpensive older fiberglass options such as the Libelle, etc.
>
> Are fiberglass gliders more expensive to maintain and repair?
>
> Easily damaged on rough landouts?
>
> Qualified mechanics easier or harder to find, vs aluminum?
>
> Insurance costs aluminum vs fiberglass?
>
> Are fabric covered gliders (1-26 A,B) much more expensive to maintain?
>
> I remember a local pilot telling me he spent a few thousand dollars re-covering his 1-26 and that it needed to be done every X number of years (I can't remember that number now).
>
> As usual hangar space might be possible but is usually unlikely due to demand.
>
> Any advice appreciated.
>
> Thanks
> Tom

Tom,
The problem with 1-26 is that you will have to be catching every thermal ahead of you or you will have to hurry back to the last one to prevent to be landing out. You will land out with 1-26 a lot and with that the safe 1-26 has a risk factor. Go for something better performance. The Libelle: My shoulder with is 19" and I cannot fit in the Libelle 201, however if you have 17.5" will work for you. There is lots of leg room in the Libelle, a 6ft 3" tall person would fit in. There is one for sale in St. Louis for $9500 (Wings and Wheels) with TWO trailers, (open and closed), has great vario, new canopy..... It is a nice glider and the seller is super nice.

[flgliderpilot[_2_]]

> The problem with 1-26 is that you will have to be catching every thermal ahead of you or you
>will have to hurry back to the last one to prevent to be landing out. You will land out with 1-26
>a lot and with that the safe 1-26 has a risk factor. Go for something better performance. The
>Libelle: My shoulder with is 19" and I cannot fit in the Libelle 201, however if you have 17.5"
>will work for you. There is lots of leg room in the Libelle, a 6ft 3" tall person would fit in. There
>is one for sale in St. Louis for $9500 (Wings and Wheels) with TWO trailers, (open and >closed), has great vario, new canopy..... It is a nice glider and the seller is super nice.

True, this described my silver distance attempts exactly. I'd do 2/3's of the triangle and get stuck in a weak thermal trying over and over to get to the next thermal anywhere up wind. I'd have to scurry back re-gain altitude over until the thermal would break up and I'd land out. The challenge was of course fun at first but the cost of tow plane retrievals started to add up and take the joy out of it. But, I hadn't given up.

I may not actually fit in a Libelle... only 5'4 and around 200 pounds. Not all that fat but stocky and wide (and add parachute).

[FNQ Mark]

On Monday, 20 November 2017 07:56:29 UTC+11, flgliderpilot wrote:
> > The problem with 1-26 is that you will have to be catching every thermal ahead of you or you
> >will have to hurry back to the last one to prevent to be landing out. You will land out with 1-26
> >a lot and with that the safe 1-26 has a risk factor. Go for something better performance. The
> >Libelle: My shoulder with is 19" and I cannot fit in the Libelle 201, however if you have 17.5"
> >will work for you. There is lots of leg room in the Libelle, a 6ft 3" tall person would fit in. There
> >is one for sale in St. Louis for $9500 (Wings and Wheels) with TWO trailers, (open and >closed), has great vario, new canopy..... It is a nice glider and the seller is super nice.
>
> True, this described my silver distance attempts exactly. I'd do 2/3's of the triangle and get stuck in a weak thermal trying over and over to get to the next thermal anywhere up wind. I'd have to scurry back re-gain altitude over until the thermal would break up and I'd land out. The challenge was of course fun at first but the cost of tow plane retrievals started to add up and take the joy out of it. But, I hadn't given up.
>
> I may not actually fit in a Libelle... only 5'4 and around 200 pounds. Not all that fat but stocky and wide (and add parachute).

Then go for a Hornet (H206). Armchair cockpit, inflight adjustable seatback and rudder pedals. Lots of room. Goes just a bit better than a Libelle and and is even easier to rig, also has a T Tail. Support for this old line of gliders by Glasfaser is nothing short of superb.

[Scott Williams]

On Sunday, November 19, 2017 at 3:54:35 PM UTC-6, FNQ Mark wrote:
> On Monday, 20 November 2017 07:56:29 UTC+11, flgliderpilot wrote:
> > > The problem with 1-26 is that you will have to be catching every thermal ahead of you or you
> > >will have to hurry back to the last one to prevent to be landing out. You will land out with 1-26
> > >a lot and with that the safe 1-26 has a risk factor. Go for something better performance. The
> > >Libelle: My shoulder with is 19" and I cannot fit in the Libelle 201, however if you have 17.5"
> > >will work for you. There is lots of leg room in the Libelle, a 6ft 3" tall person would fit in. There
> > >is one for sale in St. Louis for $9500 (Wings and Wheels) with TWO trailers, (open and >closed), has great vario, new canopy..... It is a nice glider and the seller is super nice.
> >
> > True, this described my silver distance attempts exactly. I'd do 2/3's of the triangle and get stuck in a weak thermal trying over and over to get to the next thermal anywhere up wind. I'd have to scurry back re-gain altitude over until the thermal would break up and I'd land out. The challenge was of course fun at first but the cost of tow plane retrievals started to add up and take the joy out of it. But, I hadn't given up.
> >
> > I may not actually fit in a Libelle... only 5'4 and around 200 pounds. Not all that fat but stocky and wide (and add parachute).
>
> Then go for a Hornet (H206). Armchair cockpit, inflight adjustable seatback and rudder pedals. Lots of room. Goes just a bit better than a Libelle and and is even easier to rig, also has a T Tail. Support for this old line of gliders by Glasfaser is nothing short of superb.

I've never been around either Hornets or libelles, but I'm 6'2" 245lbs, and I love my standard cirrus.
Scott

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sun, 19 Nov 2017 12:56:28 -0800, flgliderpilot wrote:

>> The problem with 1-26 is that you will have to be catching every
>> thermal ahead of you or you
>>will have to hurry back to the last one to prevent to be landing out.
>>You will land out with 1-26 a lot and with that the safe 1-26 has a risk
>>factor. Go for something better performance. The Libelle: My shoulder
>>with is 19" and I cannot fit in the Libelle 201, however if you have
>>17.5"
>>will work for you. There is lots of leg room in the Libelle, a 6ft 3"
>>tall person would fit in. There is one for sale in St. Louis for $9500
>>(Wings and Wheels) with TWO trailers, (open and >closed), has great
>>vario, new canopy..... It is a nice glider and the seller is super nice.
>
> True, this described my silver distance attempts exactly. I'd do 2/3's
> of the triangle and get stuck in a weak thermal trying over and over to
> get to the next thermal anywhere up wind. I'd have to scurry back
> re-gain altitude over until the thermal would break up and I'd land out.
> The challenge was of course fun at first but the cost of tow plane
> retrievals started to add up and take the joy out of it. But, I hadn't
> given up.
>
> I may not actually fit in a Libelle... only 5'4 and around 200 pounds.
> Not all that fat but stocky and wide (and add parachute).

Additional explanation: viewed head-on, the Libelle cockpit cross-section
is pretty much triangular with well-rounded-off corners. In other words,
the space between the canopy rails, which are at shoulder height for most
people, are quite a bit narrower than the part of the cockpit between
them and the seat pan.

At my club we have three Standard Libelles and a Club Libelle.

Almost anybody fits in the Club Libelle. It has the biggest cockpit I've
seen on a single seater apart from a Std Cirrus. BTW, the latter has some
of the worst rear vision I've seen thanks to the width of the rear
cockpit bulkhead. So lets ignore the Club Libelle for this discussion.

Our longest standing Libelle pilot is reasonably chubby and taller than
yourself. He says his is comfortable but admits that he has to wriggle
down and get his shoulders under the canopy rails.

I'm a moderately tall lightweight (5' 10", 65 kg) and have no issues at
all with the Libelle's cockpit comfort.

The third Standard Libelle is a new arrival at the club and is owned by a
syndicate. Both owners are about my height and a bit heavier than me.
Neither has said anything about comfort, so I assume they don't have
comfort issues.

If there's a Libelle near you, ask its owner to show it to you and let
you sit in it with a parachute on. If the cockpit feels too narrow, try
adjusting your position so your shoulders are under the rails. If that
works, fine.

If you can't get comfortable, then look for another type of glider.

Bottom line: ask to sit in anything you'd like to buy. If you can't get
comfortable in it, go and look for another type of glider. If its a type
you haven't sat in before and its owner won't let you sit in his glider,
move on.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sun, 19 Nov 2017 15:50:01 -0800, Scott Williams wrote:

> On Sunday, November 19, 2017 at 3:54:35 PM UTC-6, FNQ Mark wrote:
>> On Monday, 20 November 2017 07:56:29 UTC+11, flgliderpilot wrote:
>> > > The problem with 1-26 is that you will have to be catching every
>> > > thermal ahead of you or you
>> > >will have to hurry back to the last one to prevent to be landing
>> > >out. You will land out with 1-26 a lot and with that the safe 1-26
>> > >has a risk factor. Go for something better performance. The Libelle:
>> > >My shoulder with is 19" and I cannot fit in the Libelle 201, however
>> > >if you have 17.5"
>> > >will work for you. There is lots of leg room in the Libelle, a 6ft
>> > >3" tall person would fit in. There is one for sale in St. Louis for
>> > >$9500 (Wings and Wheels) with TWO trailers, (open and >closed), has
>> > >great vario, new canopy..... It is a nice glider and the seller is
>> > >super nice.
>> >
>> > True, this described my silver distance attempts exactly. I'd do
>> > 2/3's of the triangle and get stuck in a weak thermal trying over and
>> > over to get to the next thermal anywhere up wind. I'd have to scurry
>> > back re-gain altitude over until the thermal would break up and I'd
>> > land out. The challenge was of course fun at first but the cost of
>> > tow plane retrievals started to add up and take the joy out of it.
>> > But, I hadn't given up.
>> >
>> > I may not actually fit in a Libelle... only 5'4 and around 200
>> > pounds. Not all that fat but stocky and wide (and add parachute).
>>
>> Then go for a Hornet (H206). Armchair cockpit, inflight adjustable
>> seatback and rudder pedals. Lots of room. Goes just a bit better than a
>> Libelle and and is even easier to rig, also has a T Tail. Support for
>> this old line of gliders by Glasfaser is nothing short of superb.
>
> I've never been around either Hornets or libelles, but I'm 6'2" 245lbs,
> and I love my standard cirrus.
> Scott

Libelle max seat weight is 110 kg, so you would be pushing the limit, and
how its distributed would have a major effect on whether you'd be
comfortable in a Libelle. Please treat this as advice to the OP, not
criticism!

I've sat in a late model Std Cirrus (one with elevators, not an all-
flying tailplane), but never had the opportunity to fly one.

I'm really pleased to hear that you like your Std Cirrus: it seems we're
both happy campers in our respective mounts.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Dave Springford]

There could be a Club Libelle for sale at my club near Toronto if that is of interest to anyone. Was refinished about 10 years ago and has not flown more than a couple of hours since then. Not currently listed and I don't own it, I just know the owner could be convinced to sell it if someone asked..

[[email protected]]

I enjoyed watching your videos, Tom. Hope to see some new ones of you flying your new glider!

[krasw]

We have had glassfiber gliders for 60 years but you can still actually ask if that material (developed by witches and black magic) is repairable or costly to maintain.

[flgliderpilot[_2_]]

On Monday, November 20, 2017 at 1:59:49 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
> We have had glassfiber gliders for 60 years but you can still actually ask if that material (developed by witches and black magic) is repairable or costly to maintain.

Of course fiberglass is easy to repair and easy to maintain, but I'm asking about the costs of having a certified aircraft mechanic do that work, and if it's more expensive than riveting aluminum and stretching fabric.

Fiberglass involves layup and lots of sanding, dealing with sanding dust, following with gel coat, polishing, etc.

I imagine that to be more expensive but maybe it's cheaper. It's not the material, it's the hours involved.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

My feeling, fabric or aluminum repairs can be done in a number of places in almost any state in the US, composite repairs are more limited, thus more expensive. Same likely goes for the rest of the world.

Within a region, prices vary based on where you are. Major areas are likely more expensive labor.
Then you get into the finish, you want "OK" or "as good as new"?

So, where are you and what level of finish do you want? Sorta like painting a car, you can go and paint applied that looks good from 10' for not much but looks horrid up close.
I will "assume" the quality of the structure is fine in many places, the final finish can be more depending on what you want.

[Scott Williams]

On Monday, November 20, 2017 at 10:05:44 AM UTC-6, flgliderpilot wrote:
> On Monday, November 20, 2017 at 1:59:49 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
> > We have had glassfiber gliders for 60 years but you can still actually ask if that material (developed by witches and black magic) is repairable or costly to maintain.
>
> Of course fiberglass is easy to repair and easy to maintain, but I'm asking about the costs of having a certified aircraft mechanic do that work, and if it's more expensive than riveting aluminum and stretching fabric.
>
> Fiberglass involves layup and lots of sanding, dealing with sanding dust, following with gel coat, polishing, etc.
>
> I imagine that to be more expensive but maybe it's cheaper. It's not the material, it's the hours involved.

There seem to be as many value/cost opinions as there are pilots. You ask if there is a difference in maintenance cost between vintage materials and state of the art (well almost, Carbon etc excepted) materials.
Here are a couple of thoughts,

First I believe that any hobby/sport requires an certain amount of investment.
This investment is complicated and multifaceted, not only time away from family, but job time, to earn that green and folding, and personal energy including maintaining enthusiasm. The rewards of flying gliders must justify these expenditures.
In your original post, you stated former ownership of an 1-26E.
during the time you owned that ship, did you ever wish for more? Or were you always content with it and it's performance? I would guess if you were always content, you would be happy with a 1-26E again.
However, your O.P. implies that you are interested in more. More in this case would seem to require glass.

Here I purposefully exclude vintage high performance wood, for no other reason than they can be maintenance Hogs, and commercial wooden aircraft repairmen are a thing of the past.

I believe that fiberglass 'routine maintenance' is both less comprehensive and cheaper. Much less comprehensive compared to tube and fabric, and maybe a little less that monocoque aluminum construction, (ignoring possible corrosion)

Fiberglass ships, if not damaged, seem to go on forever. Gelcoatings, not so much.

I think the question of which is cheaper to repair 'after damage' could be considered 'moot', Very, very few gliders are damaged, even fewer are repaired after major damage. One could rather ask, How much insurance should I carry on this glider?, as the main consideration seems to be what percentage of the value of the glider results in a 'total loss'

In my experience, deciding what will make you happy is much more difficult than actually obtaining that thing.

Best of Luck,
Scott, Standard Cirrus, SHK, 1-26E, 2-33A.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, November 19, 2017 at 11:03:11 AM UTC-5, flgliderpilot wrote:
> Low time pilot, 60hrs, have done some solo cross country flying but not a lot. Sold my 1-26E a few years ago (not by choice, business debt at the time).
>
> My first thought is to jump into another 1-26 or 1-34 for a number of reasons (safety and availability). I could land my 1-26 just about anywhere!
>
> My budget is 10K or less, and I am still saving, so in the meantime I'm wondering about inexpensive older fiberglass options such as the Libelle, etc.
>
> Are fiberglass gliders more expensive to maintain and repair?
>
> Easily damaged on rough landouts?
>
> Qualified mechanics easier or harder to find, vs aluminum?
>
> Insurance costs aluminum vs fiberglass?
>
> Are fabric covered gliders (1-26 A,B) much more expensive to maintain?
>
> I remember a local pilot telling me he spent a few thousand dollars re-covering his 1-26 and that it needed to be done every X number of years (I can't remember that number now).
>
> As usual hangar space might be possible but is usually unlikely due to demand.
>
> Any advice appreciated.
>
> Thanks
> Tom

Your budget, as you note, pretty much limits you to a good 1-26, or an older bottom of the range glass ship.
Some other considerations related to your choice. Would you tie the 1-26 out?
If so, it gets wear and tear, but is ready to fly immediately with no assembly required. Sometimes I fly my 1-26 when I don't feel like assembling one of my glass ships.
You can have a lot of fun with either choice.
Any glass ship bought for 10K or so and insured as such will be insured such that it will easily reach the point of not being economically repairable while having relatively minor damage. This threshold is about 70%, sometimes less, of insured value.
This could happen with the 1-26 but is not as likely given that parts are readily available and most repairs can be done by a skilled A&P locally.
Consider the idea of buying a 1-26(E preferred) and flying for 2 or 3 years while you build experience, get some off field landings in your log book, and save some bucks for the next step.
Good luck and have some fun
UH
1-26, Std Libelle, ASG-29

[Giaco]

You could also consider an HP-11, 14, or 18.
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/Trading_Post/The_Trading_Post.html

I thought about a 1-26 as my first ship due to budget, but could not have been happier with the decision to get an HP-14 instead. Performance nearly as good as a Libelle, with the ability to land shorter than in a 1-26.

The other option is to find a partner or two looking for a $10k buy-in. Then your costs are shared, you have people to talk to who know your ship specifically, and its easier to move up down the road if you so choose.

[[email protected]]

Went from a 1-26 to ASW-19. Loved the 1-26, but the fun to dollars ratio on the 19 can’t be beat. Try looking at the 19, standard cirrus or libelle.

[[email protected]]

I guess we are spoiled at Moriarty, with two highly qualified and proficient composite repair shops on the airport: One Air Composites LLC (Fidel Ramirez) and Composite Aircraft Repair LLC (Robert Mudd).

Always lots of trailers with out-of-state license plates in front of both facilities.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, November 20, 2017 at 3:14:41 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> ...
> Any glass ship bought for 10K or so and insured as such will be insured such that it will easily reach the point of not being economically repairable while having relatively minor damage. This threshold is about 70%, sometimes less, of insured value.

That's just a characteristic of owning an inexpensive glider, the insurance is not to blame. If it does get "totalled" but you want to fix it anyway (perhaps work over time on it, contributing labor under a mechanic's supervision), you can buy the wreck from the insurance. E.g., insured value $10K, and "totaled", the insurance pays you the $10K and takes away the carcass.. Alternatively, if they think the carcass is worth $2K, they pay you $10K-$2K=$8K. Or they might offer to pay you $7K if that's the estimated cost of fixing it. Either way you get to keep it.

Of course, if it's worth more than you bought it for, then insure it for what it's worth (to you). You'll then pay a higher premium, but will get a bigger payment if it's totaled.

The trailer may be a large part of the "worth" if the glider is cheap.

[LongJourney]

On Sunday, November 19, 2017 at 10:03:11 AM UTC-6, flgliderpilot wrote:
> Low time pilot, 60hrs, have done some solo cross country flying but not a lot. Sold my 1-26E a few years ago (not by choice, business debt at the time).
>
> My first thought is to jump into another 1-26 or 1-34 for a number of reasons (safety and availability). I could land my 1-26 just about anywhere!
>
> My budget is 10K or less, and I am still saving, so in the meantime I'm wondering about inexpensive older fiberglass options such as the Libelle, etc.
>
> Are fiberglass gliders more expensive to maintain and repair?
>
> Easily damaged on rough landouts?
>
> Qualified mechanics easier or harder to find, vs aluminum?
>
> Insurance costs aluminum vs fiberglass?
>
> Are fabric covered gliders (1-26 A,B) much more expensive to maintain?
>
> I remember a local pilot telling me he spent a few thousand dollars re-covering his 1-26 and that it needed to be done every X number of years (I can't remember that number now).
>
> As usual hangar space might be possible but is usually unlikely due to demand.
>
> Any advice appreciated.
>
> Thanks
> Tom

I've never flown one, but a Phoebus might fit your needs.

Jeff

[Bruce Hoult]

On Wednesday, November 22, 2017 at 7:06:27 AM UTC+3, LongJourney wrote:
> On Sunday, November 19, 2017 at 10:03:11 AM UTC-6, flgliderpilot wrote:
> > Low time pilot, 60hrs, have done some solo cross country flying but not a lot. Sold my 1-26E a few years ago (not by choice, business debt at the time).
> >
> > My first thought is to jump into another 1-26 or 1-34 for a number of reasons (safety and availability). I could land my 1-26 just about anywhere!
> >
> > My budget is 10K or less, and I am still saving, so in the meantime I'm wondering about inexpensive older fiberglass options such as the Libelle, etc.
> >
> > Are fiberglass gliders more expensive to maintain and repair?
> >
> > Easily damaged on rough landouts?
> >
> > Qualified mechanics easier or harder to find, vs aluminum?
> >
> > Insurance costs aluminum vs fiberglass?
> >
> > Are fabric covered gliders (1-26 A,B) much more expensive to maintain?
> >
> > I remember a local pilot telling me he spent a few thousand dollars re-covering his 1-26 and that it needed to be done every X number of years (I can't remember that number now).
> >
> > As usual hangar space might be possible but is usually unlikely due to demand.
> >
> > Any advice appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Tom
>
> I've never flown one, but a Phoebus might fit your needs.

I've flown one. Great L/D for the time (and money), but at the low speed of 48 knots.

The wings are very heavy and very stiff. People will run away when you rig, but you'll feel every ripple in the air (if you like that kind of thing).

Libelle is as good performance, but people won't run away when you rig.

[[email protected]]

If the gelcoat on a composite glider is shot it will cost quit a bit to refinish it. Even doing it the "cheap" way by just sanding down the old finish and spraying polyurethane over it will cost a fair amount. The rest of the maintenance isn't really any different from a metal ship when it comes to cost. As long as there is a good maintenance shop within reasonable distance that is willing and able to do the work a composite ship is fine. Ask the pilots in your area who fly glass who they work with. A Schweizer 1-34 or 1-35 would have the advantage that all the parts and materials are North American aircraft standard and would be familiar to any light aircraft maintenance shop but it isn't a decisive factor. On the other hand being able to leave the ship tied down and ready to fly may be an attractive benefit to you. I know a few pilots with easy to rig glass ships that still frequently leave them staked down overnight because they find the assembly/disassembly process too much work. I can usually have my ASW-15 cleaned, disassembled and in the trailer using an Udo rigger in less time than it takes them to get their stakes, hammer them in and tie their ship down though! For a quick summary of flying characteristics look up Derek Piggot's "Gliding Safety" book or the evaluation table he made that is printed in the Soaring magazine sailplane directory.

Whatever you go for get a good inspection done by someone who really knows what they're doing before you buy.

[krasw]

maanantai 20. marraskuuta 2017 18.05.44 UTC+2 flgliderpilot kirjoitti:
> On Monday, November 20, 2017 at 1:59:49 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
> > We have had glassfiber gliders for 60 years but you can still actually ask if that material (developed by witches and black magic) is repairable or costly to maintain.
>
> Of course fiberglass is easy to repair and easy to maintain, but I'm asking about the costs of having a certified aircraft mechanic do that work, and if it's more expensive than riveting aluminum and stretching fabric.
>
> Fiberglass involves layup and lots of sanding, dealing with sanding dust, following with gel coat, polishing, etc.
>
> I imagine that to be more expensive but maybe it's cheaper. It's not the material, it's the hours involved.

I don't quite understand what there is maintain in fiberglass structure. It is as close to maintenance free as anything. If you break the glider, then it is insurance company's headache. For small scrathces you need paint, not airframe mechanic. Sure refinish costs a lot, but I guess most of the early glass gliders have been painted by now with car paints that do not crack like gelcoat and are again maintenance free. And you have to refinish aluminium or tube/rag planes also (right?) at some point of their life.

[Tango Whisky]

In our club, maintainance takes one winter weekend per glider (2x ASK21, 2x DuoDiscus, 2x LS4, 2x LS8-18). Mostly washing, cleaning and greasing.
The 3000h check is a different story, but that happens once in 20-25 years.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, November 19, 2017 at 7:45:45 PM UTC-6, Dave Springford wrote:
> There could be a Club Libelle for sale at my club near Toronto if that is of interest to anyone. Was refinished about 10 years ago and has not flown more than a couple of hours since then. Not currently listed and I don't own it, I just know the owner could be convinced to sell it if someone asked.


Hi. I fly at FLF in Austin, Tx; a low time glider pilot. And think Club Libelle may be a good match. Kindly email me a picture / price, and lets see if we can work something out. Thanking you for the help. Ed Khan (cell # 504-256-3929)

[flgliderpilot[_2_]]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I've decided the Standard Libelle is probably the best option for my next ship. It's within my price range and I feel the longer legs would give me more bang for the buck, and result in a ship I will keep longer before wanting to move up.

Thanks for all the help! Funny thing is, I almost purchased a Libelle before buying my 1-26!