Glider cockpit size

[Steve Muhli]

Hi, New to this forum, thought I 'd pose a question..... I have a glider
rating
from years ago, I was wondering if anyone can suggest a list of gliders
that
are more "roomy" inside since I am 6'4" . I am planning on going to the
SSA
convention in Reno in 2018 to check out the new stuff....I've sat in an SZD

55, that's about it.... Thanks

[Michael Opitz]

At 03:26 25 November 2017, Steve Muhli wrote:
>Hi, New to this forum, thought I 'd pose a question..... I have a
glide
>rating
>from years ago, I was wondering if anyone can suggest a list of
glider
>that
>are more "roomy" inside since I am 6'4" . I am planning on going
to th
>SSA
>convention in Reno in 2018 to check out the new stuff....I've sat in
an SZ
>
>55, that's about it.... Thanks
>

Discus-2b and Ventus-2b should be comfortable up to ~6'5" with
a normal chute. Genesis is also roomy, but not many around or for
sale. A lot depends on your wallet, experience level, and what you
are trying to accomplish. Most of the older gliders were not built
with a 6'4" pilot in mind. The Discus-2b and Ventus-2b fuselages
were the first where Schempp-Hirth said that they wanted to design
a cockpit which almost anyone could get into comfortably. Other
manufacturers have gradually over time enlarged the insides of
their cockpits in order for taller people to fit as well.

Most glider seat belt attachment fittings are the limiting factors
for weight in the seat. For most, the max weight is 242 Lbs or
110 Kg.

You will probably get a bunch of other suggestions from this forum.

Good luck...

RO

[Craig Lowrie]

Try an HPH Shark... It probably has the most roomy cockpit out there...
6'4" will fit ok... Craig

At 04:03 25 November 2017, Michael Opitz wrote:
>At 03:26 25 November 2017, Steve Muhli wrote:
>>Hi, New to this forum, thought I 'd pose a question..... I have a
>glide
>>rating
>>from years ago, I was wondering if anyone can suggest a list of
>glider
>>that
>>are more "roomy" inside since I am 6'4" . I am planning on going
>to th
>>SSA
>>convention in Reno in 2018 to check out the new stuff....I've sat in
>an SZ
>>
>>55, that's about it.... Thanks
>>
>
>Discus-2b and Ventus-2b should be comfortable up to ~6'5" with
>a normal chute. Genesis is also roomy, but not many around or for
>sale. A lot depends on your wallet, experience level, and what you
>are trying to accomplish. Most of the older gliders were not built
>with a 6'4" pilot in mind. The Discus-2b and Ventus-2b fuselages
>were the first where Schempp-Hirth said that they wanted to design
>a cockpit which almost anyone could get into comfortably. Other
>manufacturers have gradually over time enlarged the insides of
>their cockpits in order for taller people to fit as well.
>
>Most glider seat belt attachment fittings are the limiting factors
>for weight in the seat. For most, the max weight is 242 Lbs or
>110 Kg.
>
>You will probably get a bunch of other suggestions from this forum.
>
>Good luck...
>
>RO
>
>

[Bruce Hoult]

On Saturday, November 25, 2017 at 7:15:06 AM UTC+3, Michael Opitz wrote:
> At 03:26 25 November 2017, Steve Muhli wrote:
> >Hi, New to this forum, thought I 'd pose a question..... I have a
> glide
> >rating
> >from years ago, I was wondering if anyone can suggest a list of
> glider
> >that
> >are more "roomy" inside since I am 6'4" . I am planning on going
> to th
> >SSA
> >convention in Reno in 2018 to check out the new stuff....I've sat in
> an SZ
> >
> >55, that's about it.... Thanks
> >
>
> Discus-2b and Ventus-2b should be comfortable up to ~6'5" with
> a normal chute. Genesis is also roomy, but not many around or for
> sale. A lot depends on your wallet, experience level, and what you
> are trying to accomplish. Most of the older gliders were not built
> with a 6'4" pilot in mind. The Discus-2b and Ventus-2b fuselages
> were the first where Schempp-Hirth said that they wanted to design
> a cockpit which almost anyone could get into comfortably. Other
> manufacturers have gradually over time enlarged the insides of
> their cockpits in order for taller people to fit as well.
>
> Most glider seat belt attachment fittings are the limiting factors
> for weight in the seat. For most, the max weight is 242 Lbs or
> 110 Kg.

To be specific, the seal belt attachments are designed and certified to not fail in a 40 G deceleration with a 110 kg person.

If you weigh 120 kg (265 lb) then try to keep your crashes down to 36.7 G.

No one ever mentions: the back seats of two seat gliders are often very roomy, at least side to side and maybe for torso length. They are not necessarily so great for legroom.

[Michael Opitz]

>> Most glider seat belt attachment fittings are the limiting factors
>> for weight in the seat. For most, the max weight is 242 Lbs or
>> 110 Kg.
>
>To be specific, the seal belt attachments are designed and certified to
not
>fail in a 40 G deceleration with a 110 kg person.
>
>If you weigh 120 kg (265 lb) then try to keep your crashes down to
36.7 G.

In the USA, insurance gets to be a problem in that area. If one
intentionally flies the aircraft over a certain placard/handbook limit,
and has an accident, then this becomes a way for the insurance
company to deny payments.

RO

[Bruce Hoult]

On Saturday, November 25, 2017 at 4:30:11 PM UTC+3, Michael Opitz wrote:
> >> Most glider seat belt attachment fittings are the limiting factors
> >> for weight in the seat. For most, the max weight is 242 Lbs or
> >> 110 Kg.
> >
> >To be specific, the seal belt attachments are designed and certified to
> not
> >fail in a 40 G deceleration with a 110 kg person.
> >
> >If you weigh 120 kg (265 lb) then try to keep your crashes down to
> 36.7 G.
>
> In the USA, insurance gets to be a problem in that area. If one
> intentionally flies the aircraft over a certain placard/handbook limit,
> and has an accident, then this becomes a way for the insurance
> company to deny payments.

Legally, only if it's the cause of the accident.

[Tim Newport-Peace[_4_]]

At 13:42 25 November 2017, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>On Saturday, November 25, 2017 at 4:30:11 PM UTC+3, Michael Opitz wrote:
>> >> Most glider seat belt attachment fittings are the limiting factors
>> >> for weight in the seat. For most, the max weight is 242 Lbs or
>> >> 110 Kg.
>> >
>> >To be specific, the seal belt attachments are designed and certified to

>> not
>> >fail in a 40 G deceleration with a 110 kg person.
>> >
>> >If you weigh 120 kg (265 lb) then try to keep your crashes down to
>> 36.7 G.
>>
>> In the USA, insurance gets to be a problem in that area. If one
>> intentionally flies the aircraft over a certain placard/handbook limit,
>> and has an accident, then this becomes a way for the insurance
>> company to deny payments.
>
>Legally, only if it's the cause of the accident.
>
>
A bit surprised that no-one has mentioned CG Limits or AUW.

Delibrately going outside either of these limits could (in UK/European Law
anyway) be 'endangering an aircraft', for which you could be prosecuted,
regardless of any accident.

Lots of Wriggle-Room for an insurer here.

[OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

I think that this subject has come up a few times on RAS so it may pay to search the archives. Here is one > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.aviation.soaring/tall$20pilot%7Csort:date/rec.aviation.soaring/ZD-7HqoBYTQ/l0SLOYEACAAJ.

The one glider family that I know fits taller pilots is the DG line. Several DG's are for sale right now on the http://glidersource.com web site. Also, I have a tall pilot friend that fits comfortably in his Schleicher ASW-24 with the seat back removed, which I assume means that other ASW, ASH, etc, gliders would fit the bill.

Best of luck. Get back in the air!

John OHM Ω

[Michael Opitz]

>Also, I have a tall pilot friend that fits comfortably in his Schleicher
>ASW-24 with the seat back removed, which I assume means that
other ASW, ASH,
>etc, gliders would fit the bill.

I am 6'2" and had one of the first (SN #8?) ASW-24's. I was so
crammed in (with the seat back removed) that I was afraid to make
an off-field landing in fear of putting my head through the canopy.
I complained to Gerhard Waibel about this, so he told me that in the
newer ones he had moved the cockpit bulkhead back about 4 cm, and
this would fix the problem. He told me that my old -24 could not be
modified, so I should just buy a new one - which I did. (That was
around ~1990) The new one was somewhat better, but I was still
uncomfortable even with the seat back removed. I understand that
Chip Bearden got a much later model which had the cockpit modified
once again, so that he can fit comfortably. Bottom line = Don't
assume all ASW-24 cockpits are the same size. They aren't. I have
heard that later ASW-ASG models have been improved in this regard.
Again, the newer ships will probably fit you better.

Try it on before you buy it.....

RO

[jfitch]

On Saturday, November 25, 2017 at 8:00:07 AM UTC-8, Michael Opitz wrote:
> >Also, I have a tall pilot friend that fits comfortably in his Schleicher
> >ASW-24 with the seat back removed, which I assume means that
> other ASW, ASH,
> >etc, gliders would fit the bill.
>
> I am 6'2" and had one of the first (SN #8?) ASW-24's. I was so
> crammed in (with the seat back removed) that I was afraid to make
> an off-field landing in fear of putting my head through the canopy.
> I complained to Gerhard Waibel about this, so he told me that in the
> newer ones he had moved the cockpit bulkhead back about 4 cm, and
> this would fix the problem. He told me that my old -24 could not be
> modified, so I should just buy a new one - which I did. (That was
> around ~1990) The new one was somewhat better, but I was still
> uncomfortable even with the seat back removed. I understand that
> Chip Bearden got a much later model which had the cockpit modified
> once again, so that he can fit comfortably. Bottom line = Don't
> assume all ASW-24 cockpits are the same size. They aren't. I have
> heard that later ASW-ASG models have been improved in this regard.
> Again, the newer ships will probably fit you better.
>
> Try it on before you buy it.....
>
> RO

I am 6'4" and don't fit in an ASW27. But I fit fine in an ASH26, which has a cockpit about 4" longer. I also fit in an JS1, since the fuselage is an exact copy of the ASH26. An ASH31 shares the fuselage with the 26, so I fit in that as well. I have yet to sit in a Ventus that I could fit comfortably in but there are many variants and I haven't sat in all of them. I have yet to sit in a two seat that really had enough legroom front or rear (Grob 103, ASK21, DuoDiscus, ASW32 among them).

[JS[_5_]]

A friend complained about cockpit room in his ASH26E... Thought he was crazy!
Turned out to be a poorly designed parachute.
Many gliders you think you can't fit in are better with the right parachute..
A chair parachute may work for you in an LS4 but not an LS6. National Parachute seems to make the best fit for Schempps.
Your mileage may vary from others, so check it out before buying.
Jim


On Saturday, November 25, 2017 at 8:38:26 AM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> On Saturday, November 25, 2017 at 8:00:07 AM UTC-8, Michael Opitz wrote:
> > >Also, I have a tall pilot friend that fits comfortably in his Schleicher
> > >ASW-24 with the seat back removed, which I assume means that
> > other ASW, ASH,
> > >etc, gliders would fit the bill.
> >
> > I am 6'2" and had one of the first (SN #8?) ASW-24's. I was so
> > crammed in (with the seat back removed) that I was afraid to make
> > an off-field landing in fear of putting my head through the canopy.
> > I complained to Gerhard Waibel about this, so he told me that in the
> > newer ones he had moved the cockpit bulkhead back about 4 cm, and
> > this would fix the problem. He told me that my old -24 could not be
> > modified, so I should just buy a new one - which I did. (That was
> > around ~1990) The new one was somewhat better, but I was still
> > uncomfortable even with the seat back removed. I understand that
> > Chip Bearden got a much later model which had the cockpit modified
> > once again, so that he can fit comfortably. Bottom line = Don't
> > assume all ASW-24 cockpits are the same size. They aren't. I have
> > heard that later ASW-ASG models have been improved in this regard.
> > Again, the newer ships will probably fit you better.
> >
> > Try it on before you buy it.....
> >
> > RO
>
> I am 6'4" and don't fit in an ASW27. But I fit fine in an ASH26, which has a cockpit about 4" longer. I also fit in an JS1, since the fuselage is an exact copy of the ASH26. An ASH31 shares the fuselage with the 26, so I fit in that as well. I have yet to sit in a Ventus that I could fit comfortably in but there are many variants and I haven't sat in all of them. I have yet to sit in a two seat that really had enough legroom front or rear (Grob 103, ASK21, DuoDiscus, ASW32 among them).

[Andreas Maurer]

On Sat, 25 Nov 2017 08:38:24 -0800 (PST), jfitch >
wrote:


>I am 6'4" and don't fit in an ASW27.

6'7" and I fit halfways comfortably into the 27.

[jfitch]

On Saturday, November 25, 2017 at 11:38:40 AM UTC-8, Andreas Maurer wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Nov 2017 08:38:24 -0800 (PST),
>
>
> >I am 6'4" and don't fit in an ASW27.
>
> 6'7" and I fit halfways comfortably into the 27.

I actually don't know how comfortable it would be to fly in, as I cannot get the canopy closed. The panel hits my knees and the plexi hits the top of my head about the same time, but still needs to close about 3 inches to get it latched. I have long legs and a short torso, not sure how this affects things.

[Michael Opitz]

At 00:35 26 November 2017, jfitch wrote:
>On Saturday, November 25, 2017 at 11:38:40 AM UTC-8, Andreas
Maurer wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Nov 2017 08:38:24 -0800 (PST),=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> >I am 6'4" and don't fit in an ASW27.
>>=20
>> 6'7" and I fit halfways comfortably into the 27.
>
>I actually don't know how comfortable it would be to fly in, as I
cannot
>ge=
>t the canopy closed. The panel hits my knees and the plexi hits the
top of
>=
>my head about the same time, but still needs to close about 3
inches to
>get=
> it latched. I have long legs and a short torso, not sure how this
affects
>=
>things.
>
It could be an "early vs later model" issue like I had with the
ASW-24s. I sold my last -24 in 1999 in order to switch to the
much more comfortable Discus-2b. I remember the Schleicher
dealer telling me at the time that Schleicher had made more
cockpit changes in the interim, and that I'd be more comfortable
if I got another new one. I think he may have mentioned the
ASW-27 as well in that statement, but it was a long time ago...
It may be worth looking into, especially if one can find the
production serial number when the design changed.


Again, try it before you buy it....

RO

[JS[_5_]]

And what one person thinks as tight, another is OK with.
I (6' 0" / 1.83m) have flown the early model ASW24 that still has "RO" on the tail and found it very comfy. Have not flown ASW24B or E to compare.
Jim


On Saturday, November 25, 2017 at 5:15:07 PM UTC-8, Michael Opitz wrote:
> At 00:35 26 November 2017, jfitch wrote:
> >On Saturday, November 25, 2017 at 11:38:40 AM UTC-8, Andreas
> Maurer wrote:
> >> On Sat, 25 Nov 2017 08:38:24 -0800 (PST),=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> >I am 6'4" and don't fit in an ASW27.
> >>=20
> >> 6'7" and I fit halfways comfortably into the 27.
> >
> >I actually don't know how comfortable it would be to fly in, as I
> cannot
> >ge=
> >t the canopy closed. The panel hits my knees and the plexi hits the
> top of
> >=
> >my head about the same time, but still needs to close about 3
> inches to
> >get=
> > it latched. I have long legs and a short torso, not sure how this
> affects
> >=
> >things.
> >
> It could be an "early vs later model" issue like I had with the
> ASW-24s. I sold my last -24 in 1999 in order to switch to the
> much more comfortable Discus-2b. I remember the Schleicher
> dealer telling me at the time that Schleicher had made more
> cockpit changes in the interim, and that I'd be more comfortable
> if I got another new one. I think he may have mentioned the
> ASW-27 as well in that statement, but it was a long time ago...
> It may be worth looking into, especially if one can find the
> production serial number when the design changed.
>
>
> Again, try it before you buy it....
>
> RO

[Dave Nadler]

On Saturday, November 25, 2017 at 8:15:07 PM UTC-5, Michael Opitz wrote:
> Again, try it before you buy it....

Right, also note early '27 cockpit was similarly quite different
from later production...

[Michael Opitz]

At 01:37 26 November 2017, JS wrote:
>And what one person thinks as tight, another is OK with.
>I (6' 0" / 1.83m) have flown the early model ASW24 that still has
"RO" on
>the tail and found it very comfy. Have not flown ASW24B or E to
compare.
>Jim

Nice try Jim, but I believe you flew RO2 which was my second
ASW-24, which already had the bulkhead moved 4 cm back. (My
original -24 had the tail # switched to 2HI.) Like I said, the
second one was better than the original, but was still tight for me,
especially on long flights.

RO

[[email protected]]

Per RO, first 32 or 36 SNs of ASW 24 had smaller cockpits. Mine later number had a larger cockpit and was also set up at the factory with pedals moved forward, no seat back, and a different instrument panel with higher knee holes. I believe there was at least one other even larger cockpit version later in production.

The parachute makes a huge difference (for me, very thin behind the shoulders, thick in the lumbar region: Softie Wedge model, packed properly) as does the ratio of torso to leg length.

Some types you can rule out (unless, like the late Rick Walters, you are willing to fly with a headrest parachute). But others you just have to try on..

Chip Bearden

[JS[_5_]]

On Saturday, November 25, 2017 at 6:15:06 PM UTC-8, Michael Opitz wrote:
> At 01:37 26 November 2017, JS wrote:
> >And what one person thinks as tight, another is OK with.
> >I (6' 0" / 1.83m) have flown the early model ASW24 that still has
> "RO" on
> >the tail and found it very comfy. Have not flown ASW24B or E to
> compare.
> >Jim
>
> Nice try Jim, but I believe you flew RO2 which was my second
> ASW-24, which already had the bulkhead moved 4 cm back. (My
> original -24 had the tail # switched to 2HI.) Like I said, the
> second one was better than the original, but was still tight for me,
> especially on long flights.
>
> RO

Thought I was bad, having owned three ASW27s!
Anyone feeling a bit cramped in the 27 should look on the Yahoo ASW27 newsgroup for my seat back modification giving additional recline when using the rearward seat position.
Jim

[Michael Opitz]

At 19:38 25 November 2017, Andreas Maurer wrote:
>On Sat, 25 Nov 2017 08:38:24 -0800 (PST), jfitch
>wrote:
>
>
>>I am 6'4" and don't fit in an ASW27.
>
>6'7" and I fit halfways comfortably into the 27.
>
Andreas,

Are you really 2.007 meters tall, or is there maybe a math error?

[K m]

O
>
> Thought I was bad, having owned three ASW27s!
> Anyone feeling a bit cramped in the 27 should look on the Yahoo ASW27 newsgroup for my seat back modification giving additional recline when using the rearward seat position.
> Jim

Jim ,
Did you ever try a 28 panel in your 27? I have not flown with this mod but I sat in one once and the difference in leg room was noticeable.
Kirk

[JS[_5_]]

On Tuesday, November 28, 2017 at 10:12:15 AM UTC-8, K m wrote:
> O
> >
> > Thought I was bad, having owned three ASW27s!
> > Anyone feeling a bit cramped in the 27 should look on the Yahoo ASW27 newsgroup for my seat back modification giving additional recline when using the rearward seat position.
> > Jim
>
> Jim ,
> Did you ever try a 28 panel in your 27? I have not flown with this mod but I sat in one once and the difference in leg room was noticeable.
> Kirk

A friend let me have a go in his ASW28 at Ely. Since the standard 27/29 panel is fine for me, don't remember the panel as much as the lack of aileron at the start of the takeoff roll!
But the 28 goes like mad when the stick is pushed forward.
That panel is a factory option in ASW27/G29, but the instrument panel housing must be modified to retrofit one.
Jim