Commercial - StrePla Competitive Upgrade

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

I'm sorry about this being the 3rd commercial post I've done in the last day
or so. I tend to do them in spurts... I promise to slow down after this
one.

Being a US dealer for StrePla and pocket*StrePla and a member of Team
StrePla I have found that many customers are impressed with the features of
the products, but they are already using SeeYou. Therefore I am now
offering a "competitive upgrade" option for SeeYou users.

If you are currently using SeeYou and you are interested in using
pocket*StrePla and StrePla, you can buy the StrePla-Bundle-Upgrade for $294.
It includes the full version of both StrePla and pocket*StrePla. The price
is $74 less than buying both StrePla and pocket*StrePla and is less than the
price of WinPilot Pro. You will be asked to enter your SeeYou registration
key when you place the order.

StrePla offers some unique features like free US Sectional Aeronautical
charts. pocket*StrePla offers full access to all the maps used in StrePla
and some very nice in-flight task optimization features that are great for
pilots doing OLC (Online Contest) flights or FAI free distance flights.

Of course, you may download and try the software before you buy it.

Thank you,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com

[John Palmhuber]

Paul,

having problems selling software, eh?

Speaking as a software ingeneer myself I think it's a pitty you have to
undertake such measures when selling a product to a small group of people
like glider pilots. Would you really like to see SeeYou guys strike back the
same way?

For my credit - I have evaluated both programs before purchase and have
chosen SeeYou over Strepla because I could find all of the features I needed
without using the manual.

Good luck...
John

"Paul Remde" > wrote in message
news:huLqc.34513$6f5.3442400@attbi_s54...
> Hi,
>
> I'm sorry about this being the 3rd commercial post I've done in the last
day
> or so. I tend to do them in spurts... I promise to slow down after this
> one.
>
> Being a US dealer for StrePla and pocket*StrePla and a member of Team
> StrePla I have found that many customers are impressed with the features
of
> the products, but they are already using SeeYou. Therefore I am now
> offering a "competitive upgrade" option for SeeYou users.
>
> If you are currently using SeeYou and you are interested in using
> pocket*StrePla and StrePla, you can buy the StrePla-Bundle-Upgrade for
$294.
> It includes the full version of both StrePla and pocket*StrePla. The
price
> is $74 less than buying both StrePla and pocket*StrePla and is less than
the
> price of WinPilot Pro. You will be asked to enter your SeeYou
registration
> key when you place the order.
>
> StrePla offers some unique features like free US Sectional Aeronautical
> charts. pocket*StrePla offers full access to all the maps used in StrePla
> and some very nice in-flight task optimization features that are great for
> pilots doing OLC (Online Contest) flights or FAI free distance flights.
>
> Of course, you may download and try the software before you buy it.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Paul Remde
> Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
> http://www.cumulus-soaring.com
>
>

[Andrej Kolar]

SeeYou users.

Forwarding your SeeYou key to a third party is not allowed according to the
license you have agreed upon when installing the SeeYou. A snip out of the
license agreement: "After you have received the registration key for the
software it is not possible to return or resell it without permission of the
authors of this software."

What Paul is asking you to do is illegal from where SeeYou and Strepla
businesses come from.

It is also very questionable in terms of commercial ethics, but I hope we
don't have to go into that on a public newsgroup. Being an ever optimist, I
am sure we (the parties involved) can talk as adults even though we are
competitors on a free market. It's been that way so far.

Enjoy using the software you like best.
Andrej Kolar
--
glider pilots use
http://www.SeeYou.ws/

"Paul Remde" > wrote in message
news:huLqc.34513$6f5.3442400@attbi_s54...
> Hi,
>
> I'm sorry about this being the 3rd commercial post I've done in the last
day
> or so. I tend to do them in spurts... I promise to slow down after this
> one.
>
> Being a US dealer for StrePla and pocket*StrePla and a member of Team
> StrePla I have found that many customers are impressed with the features
of
> the products, but they are already using SeeYou. Therefore I am now
> offering a "competitive upgrade" option for SeeYou users.
>
> If you are currently using SeeYou and you are interested in using
> pocket*StrePla and StrePla, you can buy the StrePla-Bundle-Upgrade for
$294.
> It includes the full version of both StrePla and pocket*StrePla. The
price
> is $74 less than buying both StrePla and pocket*StrePla and is less than
the
> price of WinPilot Pro. You will be asked to enter your SeeYou
registration
> key when you place the order.
>
> StrePla offers some unique features like free US Sectional Aeronautical
> charts. pocket*StrePla offers full access to all the maps used in StrePla
> and some very nice in-flight task optimization features that are great for
> pilots doing OLC (Online Contest) flights or FAI free distance flights.
>
> Of course, you may download and try the software before you buy it.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Paul Remde
> Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
> http://www.cumulus-soaring.com
>
>

[Andrej Kolar]

Oh...

I gotta thank you for free advertizing of SeeYou on Strepla order pages :)

Andrej
--
glider pilots
http://www.SeeYou.ws/

"Andrej Kolar" > wrote in message
...
> SeeYou users.
>
> Forwarding your SeeYou key to a third party is not allowed according to
the
> license you have agreed upon when installing the SeeYou. A snip out of the
> license agreement: "After you have received the registration key for the
> software it is not possible to return or resell it without permission of
the
> authors of this software."
>
> What Paul is asking you to do is illegal from where SeeYou and Strepla
> businesses come from.
>
> It is also very questionable in terms of commercial ethics, but I hope we
> don't have to go into that on a public newsgroup. Being an ever optimist,
I
> am sure we (the parties involved) can talk as adults even though we are
> competitors on a free market. It's been that way so far.
>
> Enjoy using the software you like best.
> Andrej Kolar
> --
> glider pilots use
> http://www.SeeYou.ws/
>
> "Paul Remde" > wrote in message
> news:huLqc.34513$6f5.3442400@attbi_s54...
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm sorry about this being the 3rd commercial post I've done in the last
> day
> > or so. I tend to do them in spurts... I promise to slow down after
this
> > one.
> >
> > Being a US dealer for StrePla and pocket*StrePla and a member of Team
> > StrePla I have found that many customers are impressed with the features
> of
> > the products, but they are already using SeeYou. Therefore I am now
> > offering a "competitive upgrade" option for SeeYou users.
> >
> > If you are currently using SeeYou and you are interested in using
> > pocket*StrePla and StrePla, you can buy the StrePla-Bundle-Upgrade for
> $294.
> > It includes the full version of both StrePla and pocket*StrePla. The
> price
> > is $74 less than buying both StrePla and pocket*StrePla and is less than
> the
> > price of WinPilot Pro. You will be asked to enter your SeeYou
> registration
> > key when you place the order.
> >
> > StrePla offers some unique features like free US Sectional Aeronautical
> > charts. pocket*StrePla offers full access to all the maps used in
StrePla
> > and some very nice in-flight task optimization features that are great
for
> > pilots doing OLC (Online Contest) flights or FAI free distance flights.
> >
> > Of course, you may download and try the software before you buy it.
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Paul Remde
> > Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
> > http://www.cumulus-soaring.com
> >
> >
>
>

[Paul Remde]

Hi Andrej and everyone,

Let me say for the record that SeeYou, like StrePla, is a great product and
the SeeYou team supports it very well. I am trying to do a very good job
selling and supporting StrePla. Like you, I want to have a friendly
relationship with you both in public and private. We have a lot in common.

However, I am very surprised by your response. I am being completely
sincere when I say that I don't see anything illegal or even questionable
about this marketing technique. My marketing approach in offering a
"Competitive Upgrade" is very common in the software industry. For example,
for years you could upgrade to the latest version of Microsoft Excel by
sending in the license key or box top from Lotus 123. The same was true
for upgrades to the latest version of Corel Draw from competitive products.

I'm not sure I follow you note below in regard to reselling or returning
without permission of the authors. I'm not going to use their SeeYou
license key or pass it on to anyone else. Therefore they are not reselling
or returning it. I am an ethical person that can be trusted. I just want
to verify that they are actually a SeeYou user and not simply saying they
are a SeeYou user.

I am frustrated by your statement that this marketing strategy is unethical.
I am an extremely ethical person with great integrity. I am just trying to
give customers a slightly less expensive way to get into a bundle of
pocket*StrePla and StrePla. The upgrade does not apply to upgrades to
StrePla only, just the bundle.

In regard to the "free marketing for SeeYou". I have always tried to show
customers all the options before they buy. That is clear in the hardware
and software comparisons on my web site. I often mention to customers that
there are 2 very good soaring flight planning and analysis programs
available - StrePla and SeeYou. I sell StrePla and I like it very much. I
imagine that some people will buy from me because they see something in
StrePla they like, or they feel I will offer good support.

I am sincerely very interested in feedback from others as to whether they
think my "Competitive Upgrade" marketing strategy is at all illegal or
unethical. If people think I'm doing something very wrong I will gladly
change my strategy so as to keep my reputation intact. But really don't
think I'm doing anything bad. Really.

Sincerely,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring Supplies
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com


"Andrej Kolar" > wrote in message
...
> SeeYou users.
>
> Forwarding your SeeYou key to a third party is not allowed according to
the
> license you have agreed upon when installing the SeeYou. A snip out of the
> license agreement: "After you have received the registration key for the
> software it is not possible to return or resell it without permission of
the
> authors of this software."
>
> What Paul is asking you to do is illegal from where SeeYou and Strepla
> businesses come from.
>
> It is also very questionable in terms of commercial ethics, but I hope we
> don't have to go into that on a public newsgroup. Being an ever optimist,
I
> am sure we (the parties involved) can talk as adults even though we are
> competitors on a free market. It's been that way so far.
>
> Enjoy using the software you like best.
> Andrej Kolar
> --
> glider pilots use
> http://www.SeeYou.ws/
>
> "Paul Remde" > wrote in message
> news:huLqc.34513$6f5.3442400@attbi_s54...
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm sorry about this being the 3rd commercial post I've done in the last
> day
> > or so. I tend to do them in spurts... I promise to slow down after
this
> > one.
> >
> > Being a US dealer for StrePla and pocket*StrePla and a member of Team
> > StrePla I have found that many customers are impressed with the features
> of
> > the products, but they are already using SeeYou. Therefore I am now
> > offering a "competitive upgrade" option for SeeYou users.
> >
> > If you are currently using SeeYou and you are interested in using
> > pocket*StrePla and StrePla, you can buy the StrePla-Bundle-Upgrade for
> $294.
> > It includes the full version of both StrePla and pocket*StrePla. The
> price
> > is $74 less than buying both StrePla and pocket*StrePla and is less than
> the
> > price of WinPilot Pro. You will be asked to enter your SeeYou
> registration
> > key when you place the order.
> >
> > StrePla offers some unique features like free US Sectional Aeronautical
> > charts. pocket*StrePla offers full access to all the maps used in
StrePla
> > and some very nice in-flight task optimization features that are great
for
> > pilots doing OLC (Online Contest) flights or FAI free distance flights.
> >
> > Of course, you may download and try the software before you buy it.
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Paul Remde
> > Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
> > http://www.cumulus-soaring.com
> >
> >
>
>

[Gary Evans]

I see nothing in this licensing statement that would
prevent what Paul is doing. The user isn't returning
or reselling the product only proving that he purchased
it.



At 12:36 20 May 2004, Paul Remde wrote:
>Hi Andrej and everyone,
>
>Let me say for the record that SeeYou, like StrePla,
>is a great product and
>the SeeYou team supports it very well. I am trying
>to do a very good job
>selling and supporting StrePla. Like you, I want to
>have a friendly
>relationship with you both in public and private.
>We have a lot in common.
>
>However, I am very surprised by your response. I am
>being completely
>sincere when I say that I don't see anything illegal
>or even questionable
>about this marketing technique. My marketing approach
>in offering a
>'Competitive Upgrade' is very common in the software
>industry. For example,
>for years you could upgrade to the latest version of
>Microsoft Excel by
>sending in the license key or box top from Lotus 123.
> The same was true
>for upgrades to the latest version of Corel Draw from
>competitive products.
>
>I'm not sure I follow you note below in regard to reselling
>or returning
>without permission of the authors. I'm not going to
>use their SeeYou
>license key or pass it on to anyone else. Therefore
>they are not reselling
>or returning it. I am an ethical person that can be
>trusted. I just want
>to verify that they are actually a SeeYou user and
>not simply saying they
>are a SeeYou user.
>
>I am frustrated by your statement that this marketing
>strategy is unethical.
>I am an extremely ethical person with great integrity.
> I am just trying to
>give customers a slightly less expensive way to get
>into a bundle of
>pocket*StrePla and StrePla. The upgrade does not apply
>to upgrades to
>StrePla only, just the bundle.
>
>In regard to the 'free marketing for SeeYou'. I have
>always tried to show
>customers all the options before they buy. That is
>clear in the hardware
>and software comparisons on my web site. I often mention
>to customers that
>there are 2 very good soaring flight planning and analysis
>programs
>available - StrePla and SeeYou. I sell StrePla and
>I like it very much. I
>imagine that some people will buy from me because they
>see something in
>StrePla they like, or they feel I will offer good support.
>
>I am sincerely very interested in feedback from others
>as to whether they
>think my 'Competitive Upgrade' marketing strategy is
>at all illegal or
>unethical. If people think I'm doing something very
>wrong I will gladly
>change my strategy so as to keep my reputation intact.
> But really don't
>think I'm doing anything bad. Really.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Paul Remde
>Cumulus Soaring Supplies
>http://www.cumulus-soaring.com
>
>
>'Andrej Kolar' wrote in message
...
>> SeeYou users.
>>
>> Forwarding your SeeYou key to a third party is not
>>allowed according to
>the
>> license you have agreed upon when installing the SeeYou.
>>A snip out of the
>> license agreement: 'After you have received the registration
>>key for the
>> software it is not possible to return or resell it
>>without permission of
>the
>> authors of this software.'
>>
>> What Paul is asking you to do is illegal from where
>>SeeYou and Strepla
>> businesses come from.
>>
>> It is also very questionable in terms of commercial
>>ethics, but I hope we
>> don't have to go into that on a public newsgroup.
>>Being an ever optimist,
>I
>> am sure we (the parties involved) can talk as adults
>>even though we are
>> competitors on a free market. It's been that way so
>>far.
>>
>> Enjoy using the software you like best.
>> Andrej Kolar
>> --
>> glider pilots use
>> http://www.SeeYou.ws/
>>
>> 'Paul Remde' wrote in message
>> news:huLqc.34513$6f5.3442400@attbi_s54...
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > I'm sorry about this being the 3rd commercial post
>>>I've done in the last
>> day
>> > or so. I tend to do them in spurts... I promise
>>>to slow down after
>this
>> > one.
>> >
>> > Being a US dealer for StrePla and pocket*StrePla
>>>and a member of Team
>> > StrePla I have found that many customers are impressed
>>>with the features
>> of
>> > the products, but they are already using SeeYou.
>>> Therefore I am now
>> > offering a 'competitive upgrade' option for SeeYou
>>>users.
>> >
>> > If you are currently using SeeYou and you are interested
>>>in using
>> > pocket*StrePla and StrePla, you can buy the StrePla-Bundle-Upgra
>>>>de for
>> $294.
>> > It includes the full version of both StrePla and
>>>pocket*StrePla. The
>> price
>> > is $74 less than buying both StrePla and pocket*StrePla
>>>and is less than
>> the
>> > price of WinPilot Pro. You will be asked to enter
>>>your SeeYou
>> registration
>> > key when you place the order.
>> >
>> > StrePla offers some unique features like free US
>>>Sectional Aeronautical
>> > charts. pocket*StrePla offers full access to all
>>>the maps used in
>StrePla
>> > and some very nice in-flight task optimization features
>>>that are great
>for
>> > pilots doing OLC (Online Contest) flights or FAI
>>>free distance flights.
>> >
>> > Of course, you may download and try the software
>>>before you buy it.
>> >
>> > Thank you,
>> >
>> > Paul Remde
>> > Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
>> > http://www.cumulus-soaring.com
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>

[Paul Remde]

Hi Todd,

I understand your position on this recurring theme. However, every time we
go through this friendly argument I receive many, many more supportive
comments than negative ones. My intension is to continue to send commercial
posts. I will try to keep them less often (on average) than 1 every week or
2. As has been my practice of late I will highlight the posts with the term
"Commercial" in the header so that people can ignore them if they choose.
They are easy to ignore if you choose.

My impression is that most people on this newsgroup like to learn about new
and updated products here.

I am not trying to get rich, but rather to support the soaring community.

Thank you,

Paul Remde

"Todd Pattist" > wrote in message
...
> "Paul Remde" > wrote:
>
> >I'm sorry about this being the 3rd commercial post I've done in the last
day
> >or so. I tend to do them in spurts... I promise to slow down after this
> >one.
>
> At the risk of being flamed again, the Charter of
> rec.aviation.soaring does not allow *any* commercial
> messages in this forum. You should be ashamed of yourself,
> as you know the rules. Other soaring suppliers abide by
> them. Put a link to your web site in your sig.
>
> Googles Glossary:
> http://www.google.com/googlegroups/glossary.html
> netiquette [from "network etiquette"] n The conventions of
> politeness recognized in discussion forums, such as
> avoidance of cross-posting to inappropriate forums and
> refraining from commercial pluggery outside the business
> forums.
>
>
> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/finding-groups/general/
> 2) Commercial Advertisements
> The general rule of thumb is that you need to take the time
> to learn where your advertisement is appropriate before you
> post it. If you are not sure where your advertisement is
> appropriate, don't post it. Another good rule of thumb is
> that unless the group's charter or FAQ specifically mentions
> that some limited types of advertising are welcome, you
> should assume that no commercial postings are allowed.
>
> > You will be asked to enter your SeeYou registration
> >key when you place the order.
>
> People really should not give these out. You should ask for
> other proof (canceled check, etc.)
>
> I don't mean to jump on you Paul, but this is not a
> commercial forum and it's against the
> Todd Pattist - "WH" Ventus C
> (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

[f.blair]

I see post from Wings & Wheels and a few from Knauff when a new book comes
out. We need the info.

> I'd hate to drive you off the group, but I hope you'll think
> before posting commercial messages.
>
> Todd Pattist - "WH" Ventus C
> (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

[Kevin Christner]

> I'm not sure I follow you note below in regard to reselling or returning
> without permission of the authors. I'm not going to use their SeeYou
> license key or pass it on to anyone else. Therefore they are not reselling
> or returning it. I am an ethical person that can be trusted. I just want
> to verify that they are actually a SeeYou user and not simply saying they
> are a SeeYou user.

Let me preface what I have to say by stating that for several years I
worked for Tim Mara at Wings and Wheels, and now do all the US Support
for LX Navigation and flyWithCE products. But, the following
statement clearly prohibits what you are doing.

"After you have received the registration key for the
software it is not possible to return or resell it without permission
of the
authors of this software."

Users sending you their code are clearly "returning" it. In addition,
they are "selling" it because you have given them a discount, which
amounts a monetary value. You are buying their code.

To be honest, when I first read your post, I thought it was a great
business strategy. I have no personal problems with what you are
doing. But the SeeYou EULA clearly states that this is not correct.

Also, I think that there are alot of people who don't care a message
on RAS everytime you add a new mount, cable, update your website, ect.
I know that Tim updates his website 3-4 times EVERYDAY, with new
products, want-ads, ect. We probably get 25-50 new products every
year, but we don't put a message on RAS for everyone. Latley, your
posts have increased to 2-3 per week, for every little thing that you
get. Clearly, the business you recieve from these posts justify the
negative feedback you recieve from some. But, at the same time,
Standard Oil got alot of business too, but that didn't make their
tactics right.

Kevin Christner

[Tim Mara]

Thanks......and Honestly...... I try very hard and refrain from posting any
messages that might even be considered "commercial".....the last message I
can remember posting that was close was to announce the new HpH Sailplane
and offer links to the pages....I thought that would be newsworthy and
simply tried to point a link page where if there was interest, the readers
of RAS could go to find out more... I did get several responses but answered
these in private rather that trying to keep the business name on RAS. I
respect and try to honor the charter of RAS. I find RAS a great place to
ask and find answers to soaring questions, to post news, the good and the
bad for the readers interest and try to pass on answers to technical
questions where I can.....hopefully to the benefit to all users. I'll
continue to do this and hopefully will at times offer a helpful note. I
believe RAS is not the place for, and should not be used for self-promotion
or commercial business or it will lessen the value of sincere answers to the
level of late night infomercials and SPAM phone calls...I hope others who
are in the business of sailplanes and soaring supplies will also abide by
the rules of this charter.
Tim Mara
(you know where :o)



"Todd Pattist" > wrote in message
...
> e"f.blair" > wrote:
>
> >I see post from Wings & Wheels and a few from Knauff when a new book
comes
> >out. We need the info.
>
> Perhaps I've missed them, but all the posts from Tim (W&W)
> that I've seen were responses to questions or other posts
> initiated by someone here. They aren't commercial. Tom
> (K&G) doesn't seem to post here much, but he provides a
> newsletter that I subscribe to and get the "info we need"
> about K&G that way. Paul and Tim have web sites we can
> visit. IIRC, Tim puts that web site in his sig.
>
> I probably wouldn't have commented if the original post
> hadn't pointedly noted that it was the third commercial post
> in a string. Where is the line drawn? The answer is really
> simple - commercial posts aren't allowed here and normally
> aren't allowed under the AUP provisions of most ISP's.
>
>
> Todd Pattist - "WH" Ventus C
> (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

I'm not convinced that sending their code to me to prove they purchase
SeeYou is "returning it". I'm not asking them to stop using it.

Paul Remde

"Kevin Christner" > wrote in message
...
> > I'm not sure I follow you note below in regard to reselling or returning
> > without permission of the authors. I'm not going to use their SeeYou
> > license key or pass it on to anyone else. Therefore they are not
reselling
> > or returning it. I am an ethical person that can be trusted. I just
want
> > to verify that they are actually a SeeYou user and not simply saying
they
> > are a SeeYou user.
>
> Let me preface what I have to say by stating that for several years I
> worked for Tim Mara at Wings and Wheels, and now do all the US Support
> for LX Navigation and flyWithCE products. But, the following
> statement clearly prohibits what you are doing.
>
> "After you have received the registration key for the
> software it is not possible to return or resell it without permission
> of the
> authors of this software."
>
> Users sending you their code are clearly "returning" it. In addition,
> they are "selling" it because you have given them a discount, which
> amounts a monetary value. You are buying their code.
>
> To be honest, when I first read your post, I thought it was a great
> business strategy. I have no personal problems with what you are
> doing. But the SeeYou EULA clearly states that this is not correct.
>
> Also, I think that there are alot of people who don't care a message
> on RAS everytime you add a new mount, cable, update your website, ect.
> I know that Tim updates his website 3-4 times EVERYDAY, with new
> products, want-ads, ect. We probably get 25-50 new products every
> year, but we don't put a message on RAS for everyone. Latley, your
> posts have increased to 2-3 per week, for every little thing that you
> get. Clearly, the business you recieve from these posts justify the
> negative feedback you recieve from some. But, at the same time,
> Standard Oil got alot of business too, but that didn't make their
> tactics right.
>
> Kevin Christner

[Guy Byars]

> in a string. Where is the line drawn? The answer is really
> simple - commercial posts aren't allowed here and normally
> aren't allowed under the AUP provisions of most ISP's.

Oh for Christ's sake lighten up! The soaring community is so small and the
products and advertisements so few, I can't believe you are actually
suggesting it's a problem. In fact of the ads for soaring products here are
much less offensive than some of that Lenie the Lurker crap that goes on
here. And at least the ads are clearly marked for what they are.

I feel that I have a right to rant a little bit because I have been
following and posting on rec.aviation.soaring way back when it was just
rec.aviation in the early 90's. Anybody remember who Geoff Peck is???...
How quickly we forget. So unless you can trace your roots back to
rec.aviation and Brother Peck, please refrain from coming here with both
guns blasting telling what is and isn't allowed.

Guy Byars

[Ray Lovinggood]

I see by reading this post that the flying conditions
must not be as great as we, in the Northern Hemisphere,
had hoped for our Spring.

I enjoy the posts by Paul Remde and others who might
be 'advertising' their products. There are two other
places I might see their ads: 'SOARING' magazine and
Al MacDonald's website, www.gliderforum.com. But it
doesn't bother me one bit that there might be 'advertising'
here. As long as it serves the soaring community,
I think it is great here.

Reading the charter for R.A.S., I don't see that it
explicitly prohibits ads. The charter does, politely,
ask those to 'refrain' from 'commercial pluggery' (I
wonder how spell check will like that?) but it can
be a gray line between 'commercial' and 'public service.'
I always tend to think of the posts from Paul Remde,
Tim Mara, Tom Knauff, and the handful of other product
suppliers to be a service to me and other pilots and
I hope they continue.

If there were a vote from R.A.S. readers for or against
advertising by the gliding products and service providers,
I would vote YES.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA


At 14:48 20 May 2004, Todd Pattist wrote:
>'Paul Remde' wrote:
>
>>I'm sorry about this being the 3rd commercial post
>>I've done in the last day
>>or so. I tend to do them in spurts... I promise to
>>slow down after this
>>one.
>
>At the risk of being flamed again, the Charter of
>rec.aviation.soaring does not allow *any* commercial
>messages in this forum. You should be ashamed of yourself,
>as you know the rules. Other soaring suppliers abide
>by
>them. Put a link to your web site in your sig.
>
>Googles Glossary:
>http://www.google.com/googlegroups/glossary.html
>netiquette [from 'network etiquette'] n The conventions
>of
>politeness recognized in discussion forums, such as
>avoidance of cross-posting to inappropriate forums
>and
>refraining from commercial pluggery outside the business
>forums.
>
>
>http://www.faqs.org/faqs/finding-groups/general/
>2) Commercial Advertisements
>The general rule of thumb is that you need to take
>the time
>to learn where your advertisement is appropriate before
>you
>post it. If you are not sure where your advertisement
>is
>appropriate, don't post it. Another good rule of thumb
>is
>that unless the group's charter or FAQ specifically
>mentions
>that some limited types of advertising are welcome,
>you
>should assume that no commercial postings are allowed.
>
>> You will be asked to enter your SeeYou registration
>>key when you place the order.
>
>People really should not give these out. You should
>ask for
>other proof (canceled check, etc.)
>
>I don't mean to jump on you Paul, but this is not a
>commercial forum and it's against the
>Todd Pattist - 'WH' Ventus C
>(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
>

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

I now think I have a better understanding of where the SeeYou team is coming
from on this issue. They sent me a note that explained their position more
clearly. They feel that if I ask their customers to send me their
registration key I am asking their them to break the contract between SeeYou
and the customer that prohibits sending the key to anyone. The wording in
their agreement isn't clear to me, but I respect their position. One
interesting point they made is that the registration key does not
necessarily prove that the person purchased it. I must regretfully agree -
it's too bad some soaring pilots don't respect their license agreements and
don't pay for keys for themselves. Especially in such a small industry.
Software developers deserve to get paid for their efforts for us glider
pilots.

Therefore I have changed the wording on my web site such that I no longer
ask SeeYou customers to send me their registration key to get the
competitive upgrade to StrePla. I will never ask anyone to provide a key to
me and will delete it if I receive one. If potential StrePla-Bundle-Upgrade
customers want to receive a "Competitive Upgrade" discount they must provide
some form of proof of purchase of SeeYou. That could be in the form of a
receipt or something similar I guess.

I have sent a note to them inquiring as to whether that solution is
acceptable but have not yet heard back from them.

I certainly respect their efforts to create tools for the soaring community.

I'm sincerely interested to know if anyone thinks my new approach is
unacceptable. I sincerely strive to be a very ethical person.

Thank you,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

"Paul Remde" > wrote in message
news:fS9rc.30067$gr.3034945@attbi_s52...
> Hi,
>
> I'm not convinced that sending their code to me to prove they purchase
> SeeYou is "returning it". I'm not asking them to stop using it.
>
> Paul Remde
>
> "Kevin Christner" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > I'm not sure I follow you note below in regard to reselling or
returning
> > > without permission of the authors. I'm not going to use their SeeYou
> > > license key or pass it on to anyone else. Therefore they are not
> reselling
> > > or returning it. I am an ethical person that can be trusted. I just
> want
> > > to verify that they are actually a SeeYou user and not simply saying
> they
> > > are a SeeYou user.
> >
> > Let me preface what I have to say by stating that for several years I
> > worked for Tim Mara at Wings and Wheels, and now do all the US Support
> > for LX Navigation and flyWithCE products. But, the following
> > statement clearly prohibits what you are doing.
> >
> > "After you have received the registration key for the
> > software it is not possible to return or resell it without permission
> > of the
> > authors of this software."
> >
> > Users sending you their code are clearly "returning" it. In addition,
> > they are "selling" it because you have given them a discount, which
> > amounts a monetary value. You are buying their code.
> >
> > To be honest, when I first read your post, I thought it was a great
> > business strategy. I have no personal problems with what you are
> > doing. But the SeeYou EULA clearly states that this is not correct.
> >
> > Also, I think that there are alot of people who don't care a message
> > on RAS everytime you add a new mount, cable, update your website, ect.
> > I know that Tim updates his website 3-4 times EVERYDAY, with new
> > products, want-ads, ect. We probably get 25-50 new products every
> > year, but we don't put a message on RAS for everyone. Latley, your
> > posts have increased to 2-3 per week, for every little thing that you
> > get. Clearly, the business you recieve from these posts justify the
> > negative feedback you recieve from some. But, at the same time,
> > Standard Oil got alot of business too, but that didn't make their
> > tactics right.
> >
> > Kevin Christner
>
>

[RHP]

I also try to refrain from posting commercial messages on the RAS. I
just counted the number of advertisers in Soaring Magazine. 39 or so.
Can you imagine the damage to the RAS if all were posting commercial
messages.

Richard Pfiffner
Craggyaero
www.craggyaero.com



"Paul Remde" > wrote in message news:<7w3rc.5229$Vv.389318@attbi_s51>...
> Hi Todd,
>
> I understand your position on this recurring theme. However, every time we
> go through this friendly argument I receive many, many more supportive
> comments than negative ones. My intension is to continue to send commercial
> posts. I will try to keep them less often (on average) than 1 every week or
> 2. As has been my practice of late I will highlight the posts with the term
> "Commercial" in the header so that people can ignore them if they choose.
> They are easy to ignore if you choose.
>
> My impression is that most people on this newsgroup like to learn about new
> and updated products here.
>
> I am not trying to get rich, but rather to support the soaring community.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Paul Remde
>
> "Todd Pattist" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Paul Remde" > wrote:
> >
> > >I'm sorry about this being the 3rd commercial post I've done in the last
> day
> > >or so. I tend to do them in spurts... I promise to slow down after this
> > >one.
> >
> > At the risk of being flamed again, the Charter of
> > rec.aviation.soaring does not allow *any* commercial
> > messages in this forum. You should be ashamed of yourself,
> > as you know the rules. Other soaring suppliers abide by
> > them. Put a link to your web site in your sig.
> >
> > Googles Glossary:
> > http://www.google.com/googlegroups/glossary.html
> > netiquette [from "network etiquette"] n The conventions of
> > politeness recognized in discussion forums, such as
> > avoidance of cross-posting to inappropriate forums and
> > refraining from commercial pluggery outside the business
> > forums.
> >
> >
> > http://www.faqs.org/faqs/finding-groups/general/
> > 2) Commercial Advertisements
> > The general rule of thumb is that you need to take the time
> > to learn where your advertisement is appropriate before you
> > post it. If you are not sure where your advertisement is
> > appropriate, don't post it. Another good rule of thumb is
> > that unless the group's charter or FAQ specifically mentions
> > that some limited types of advertising are welcome, you
> > should assume that no commercial postings are allowed.
> >
> > > You will be asked to enter your SeeYou registration
> > >key when you place the order.
> >
> > People really should not give these out. You should ask for
> > other proof (canceled check, etc.)
> >
> > I don't mean to jump on you Paul, but this is not a
> > commercial forum and it's against the
> > Todd Pattist - "WH" Ventus C
> > (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

[Paul Remde]

Hi Richard,

Good point.

Paul Remde

"RHP" > wrote in message
om...
> I also try to refrain from posting commercial messages on the RAS. I
> just counted the number of advertisers in Soaring Magazine. 39 or so.
> Can you imagine the damage to the RAS if all were posting commercial
> messages.
>
> Richard Pfiffner
> Craggyaero
> www.craggyaero.com
>
>
>
> "Paul Remde" > wrote in message
news:<7w3rc.5229$Vv.389318@attbi_s51>...
> > Hi Todd,
> >
> > I understand your position on this recurring theme. However, every
time we
> > go through this friendly argument I receive many, many more supportive
> > comments than negative ones. My intension is to continue to send
commercial
> > posts. I will try to keep them less often (on average) than 1 every
week or
> > 2. As has been my practice of late I will highlight the posts with the
term
> > "Commercial" in the header so that people can ignore them if they
choose.
> > They are easy to ignore if you choose.
> >
> > My impression is that most people on this newsgroup like to learn about
new
> > and updated products here.
> >
> > I am not trying to get rich, but rather to support the soaring
community.
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Paul Remde
> >
> > "Todd Pattist" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > "Paul Remde" > wrote:
> > >
> > > >I'm sorry about this being the 3rd commercial post I've done in the
last
> > day
> > > >or so. I tend to do them in spurts... I promise to slow down after
this
> > > >one.
> > >
> > > At the risk of being flamed again, the Charter of
> > > rec.aviation.soaring does not allow *any* commercial
> > > messages in this forum. You should be ashamed of yourself,
> > > as you know the rules. Other soaring suppliers abide by
> > > them. Put a link to your web site in your sig.
> > >
> > > Googles Glossary:
> > > http://www.google.com/googlegroups/glossary.html
> > > netiquette [from "network etiquette"] n The conventions of
> > > politeness recognized in discussion forums, such as
> > > avoidance of cross-posting to inappropriate forums and
> > > refraining from commercial pluggery outside the business
> > > forums.
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.faqs.org/faqs/finding-groups/general/
> > > 2) Commercial Advertisements
> > > The general rule of thumb is that you need to take the time
> > > to learn where your advertisement is appropriate before you
> > > post it. If you are not sure where your advertisement is
> > > appropriate, don't post it. Another good rule of thumb is
> > > that unless the group's charter or FAQ specifically mentions
> > > that some limited types of advertising are welcome, you
> > > should assume that no commercial postings are allowed.
> > >
> > > > You will be asked to enter your SeeYou registration
> > > >key when you place the order.
> > >
> > > People really should not give these out. You should ask for
> > > other proof (canceled check, etc.)
> > >
> > > I don't mean to jump on you Paul, but this is not a
> > > commercial forum and it's against the
> > > Todd Pattist - "WH" Ventus C
> > > (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

[Dave Martin]

Surely the answer to the question is easy, Andy who
runs this website requires funding to keep it running.
We all like it so why not support him with proper
adverts and help offset some of his expenses.

Individual old messages on RAS after a few days, but
the ad stay there for all to read.

DM

At 14:30 21 May 2004, Paul Remde wrote:
>Hi Richard,
>
>Good point.
>
>Paul Remde
>
>'RHP' wrote in message
om...
>> I also try to refrain from posting commercial messages
>>on the RAS. I
>> just counted the number of advertisers in Soaring
>>Magazine. 39 or so.
>> Can you imagine the damage to the RAS if all were
>>posting commercial
>> messages.
>>
>> Richard Pfiffner
>> Craggyaero
>> www.craggyaero.com
>>
>>
>>
>> 'Paul Remde' wrote in message
>news:...
>> > Hi Todd,
>> >
>> > I understand your position on this recurring theme.
>>> However, every
>time we
>> > go through this friendly argument I receive many,
>>> many more supportive
>> > comments than negative ones. My intension is to
>>>continue to send
>commercial
>> > posts. I will try to keep them less often (on average)
>>>than 1 every
>week or
>> > 2. As has been my practice of late I will highlight
>>>the posts with the
>term
>> > 'Commercial' in the header so that people can ignore
>>>them if they
>choose.
>> > They are easy to ignore if you choose.
>> >
>> > My impression is that most people on this newsgroup
>>>like to learn about
>new
>> > and updated products here.
>> >
>> > I am not trying to get rich, but rather to support
>>>the soaring
>community.
>> >
>> > Thank you,
>> >
>> > Paul Remde
>> >
>> > 'Todd Pattist' wrote in message
>> > ...
>> > > 'Paul Remde' wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >I'm sorry about this being the 3rd commercial post
>>>>>I've done in the
>last
>> > day
>> > > >or so. I tend to do them in spurts... I promise
>>>>>to slow down after
>this
>> > > >one.
>> > >
>> > > At the risk of being flamed again, the Charter of
>> > > rec.aviation.soaring does not allow *any* commercial
>> > > messages in this forum. You should be ashamed of
>>>>yourself,
>> > > as you know the rules. Other soaring suppliers abide
>>>>by
>> > > them. Put a link to your web site in your sig.
>> > >
>> > > Googles Glossary:
>> > > http://www.google.com/googlegroups/glossary.html
>> > > netiquette [from 'network etiquette'] n The conventions
>>>>of
>> > > politeness recognized in discussion forums, such
>>>>as
>> > > avoidance of cross-posting to inappropriate forums
>>>>and
>> > > refraining from commercial pluggery outside the
>>>>business
>> > > forums.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > http://www.faqs.org/faqs/finding-groups/general/
>> > > 2) Commercial Advertisements
>> > > The general rule of thumb is that you need to take
>>>>the time
>> > > to learn where your advertisement is appropriate
>>>>before you
>> > > post it. If you are not sure where your advertisement
>>>>is
>> > > appropriate, don't post it. Another good rule of
>>>>thumb is
>> > > that unless the group's charter or FAQ specifically
>>>>mentions
>> > > that some limited types of advertising are welcome,
>>>>you
>> > > should assume that no commercial postings are allowed.
>> > >
>> > > > You will be asked to enter your SeeYou registration
>> > > >key when you place the order.
>> > >
>> > > People really should not give these out. You should
>>>>ask for
>> > > other proof (canceled check, etc.)
>> > >
>> > > I don't mean to jump on you Paul, but this is not
>>>>a
>> > > commercial forum and it's against the
>> > > Todd Pattist - 'WH' Ventus C
>> > > (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
>
>
>

[Paul Remde]

Hi Dave,

I'm guessing that you are accessing rec.aviation.soaring through someone's
web site. Most people access r.a.s. directly using newsreader programs.
So, I'm sorry, but I don't think your suggestion will work for many of us.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde

"Dave Martin" > wrote in message
...
> Surely the answer to the question is easy, Andy who
> runs this website requires funding to keep it running.
> We all like it so why not support him with proper
> adverts and help offset some of his expenses.
>
> Individual old messages on RAS after a few days, but
> the ad stay there for all to read.
>
> DM
>
> At 14:30 21 May 2004, Paul Remde wrote:
> >Hi Richard,
> >
> >Good point.
> >
> >Paul Remde
> >
> >'RHP' wrote in message
> om...
> >> I also try to refrain from posting commercial messages
> >>on the RAS. I
> >> just counted the number of advertisers in Soaring
> >>Magazine. 39 or so.
> >> Can you imagine the damage to the RAS if all were
> >>posting commercial
> >> messages.
> >>
> >> Richard Pfiffner
> >> Craggyaero
> >> www.craggyaero.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 'Paul Remde' wrote in message
> >news:...
> >> > Hi Todd,
> >> >
> >> > I understand your position on this recurring theme.
> >>> However, every
> >time we
> >> > go through this friendly argument I receive many,
> >>> many more supportive
> >> > comments than negative ones. My intension is to
> >>>continue to send
> >commercial
> >> > posts. I will try to keep them less often (on average)
> >>>than 1 every
> >week or
> >> > 2. As has been my practice of late I will highlight
> >>>the posts with the
> >term
> >> > 'Commercial' in the header so that people can ignore
> >>>them if they
> >choose.
> >> > They are easy to ignore if you choose.
> >> >
> >> > My impression is that most people on this newsgroup
> >>>like to learn about
> >new
> >> > and updated products here.
> >> >
> >> > I am not trying to get rich, but rather to support
> >>>the soaring
> >community.
> >> >
> >> > Thank you,
> >> >
> >> > Paul Remde
> >> >
> >> > 'Todd Pattist' wrote in message
> >> > ...
> >> > > 'Paul Remde' wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > >I'm sorry about this being the 3rd commercial post
> >>>>>I've done in the
> >last
> >> > day
> >> > > >or so. I tend to do them in spurts... I promise
> >>>>>to slow down after
> >this
> >> > > >one.
> >> > >
> >> > > At the risk of being flamed again, the Charter of
> >> > > rec.aviation.soaring does not allow *any* commercial
> >> > > messages in this forum. You should be ashamed of
> >>>>yourself,
> >> > > as you know the rules. Other soaring suppliers abide
> >>>>by
> >> > > them. Put a link to your web site in your sig.
> >> > >
> >> > > Googles Glossary:
> >> > > http://www.google.com/googlegroups/glossary.html
> >> > > netiquette [from 'network etiquette'] n The conventions
> >>>>of
> >> > > politeness recognized in discussion forums, such
> >>>>as
> >> > > avoidance of cross-posting to inappropriate forums
> >>>>and
> >> > > refraining from commercial pluggery outside the
> >>>>business
> >> > > forums.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > http://www.faqs.org/faqs/finding-groups/general/
> >> > > 2) Commercial Advertisements
> >> > > The general rule of thumb is that you need to take
> >>>>the time
> >> > > to learn where your advertisement is appropriate
> >>>>before you
> >> > > post it. If you are not sure where your advertisement
> >>>>is
> >> > > appropriate, don't post it. Another good rule of
> >>>>thumb is
> >> > > that unless the group's charter or FAQ specifically
> >>>>mentions
> >> > > that some limited types of advertising are welcome,
> >>>>you
> >> > > should assume that no commercial postings are allowed.
> >> > >
> >> > > > You will be asked to enter your SeeYou registration
> >> > > >key when you place the order.
> >> > >
> >> > > People really should not give these out. You should
> >>>>ask for
> >> > > other proof (canceled check, etc.)
> >> > >
> >> > > I don't mean to jump on you Paul, but this is not
> >>>>a
> >> > > commercial forum and it's against the
> >> > > Todd Pattist - 'WH' Ventus C
> >> > > (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

[Vaughn]

"RHP" > wrote in message
om...
> I also try to refrain from posting commercial messages on the RAS. I
> just counted the number of advertisers in Soaring Magazine. 39 or so.
> Can you imagine the damage to the RAS if all were posting commercial
> messages.
>
If those 39 were also here on RAS making themselves available to offer
their know-how and advice and to hear our thoughts, it could be a wonderful
thing. I respect the opinion of others who feel differently, but this sport
needs all of the innovators, suppliers, manufacturers, and honest businesspeople
that it can get. In that spirit, I (for one) have always been willing to
tolerate the *occasional* soaring-related commercial ad from any regular
participant to RAS.


Vaughn

[Thomas Knauff]

We who fly gliders are a very small group of people.

Magazine advertising is too expensive for many low volume items and can take
several months to appear.

New items offered for sale should be considered as "newsworthy" and of
interest to the even fewer of us who read RAS.

Tom Knauff

[Robert Ehrlich]

Andrej Kolar wrote:
>
> SeeYou users.
>
> Forwarding your SeeYou key to a third party is not allowed according to the
> license you have agreed upon when installing the SeeYou. A snip out of the
> license agreement: "After you have received the registration key for the
> software it is not possible to return or resell it without permission of the
> authors of this software."
>
> What Paul is asking you to do is illegal from where SeeYou and Strepla
> businesses come from.
>
> It is also very questionable in terms of commercial ethics, but I hope we
> don't have to go into that on a public newsgroup. Being an ever optimist, I
> am sure we (the parties involved) can talk as adults even though we are
> competitors on a free market. It's been that way so far.
>
> Enjoy using the software you like best.
> Andrej Kolar

While you are completely right, I find this kind of software licence
highly questionnable. Why should commercial software be different of
any other commercial product, i.e. when you don't want to use it any
more, but it is still usable, why can't you sell it to anybody wanting
to use it? Because of this kind of restrictions, I will probably always
avoid to buy such software.