Soaring Schools

[John Foster]

Is there a general consensus on which schools are regarded as the "best" for glider training? I realize this is difficult to compare, as there are lots of good instructors all over the place, but if someone were interested in taking a block of time off and going somewhere to learn how to fly gliders and get there license to do so privately, where would you recommend?

[Kevin Christner]

Burt Compton at Marfa Gliders. 40+ years of experience and one of the most iconic soaring sites in America. Purchase a copy of The Sunship Game movie to get acquainted.

[[email protected]]

If you're in the east - Ridge Soaring in Pennsylvania. There's a bunkhouse at the gliderport and RVs can park there, as well. Top notch instruction and a great soaring location.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 12:39:37 AM UTC-5, John Foster wrote:
> Is there a general consensus on which schools are regarded as the "best" for glider training? I realize this is difficult to compare, as there are lots of good instructors all over the place, but if someone were interested in taking a block of time off and going somewhere to learn how to fly gliders and get there license to do so privately, where would you recommend?

There are many that can and will do a good job. A very important consideration is where the operation is relative to where you live. A convenient location allows training to be done in depth. If you are looking for concentrated training and licensing you should understand that there will be much more to learn after you complete that first step. Try to find a site where you can fly at least twice a month in order to develop your knowledge and skills in depth.
This is a general answer as your situation and objectives are not clear.
Good luck
UH

[John Foster]

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 7:09:54 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 12:39:37 AM UTC-5, John Foster wrote:
> > Is there a general consensus on which schools are regarded as the "best" for glider training? I realize this is difficult to compare, as there are lots of good instructors all over the place, but if someone were interested in taking a block of time off and going somewhere to learn how to fly gliders and get there license to do so privately, where would you recommend?
>
> There are many that can and will do a good job. A very important consideration is where the operation is relative to where you live. A convenient location allows training to be done in depth. If you are looking for concentrated training and licensing you should understand that there will be much more to learn after you complete that first step. Try to find a site where you can fly at least twice a month in order to develop your knowledge and skills in depth.
> This is a general answer as your situation and objectives are not clear.
> Good luck
> UH

Thanks for the replies so far. For me, the closest area that offers glider training is a 3hr drive, two states away. There is one place in state, but it is a 4hr drive--go figure. For me, it would probably work best to schedule a block of time (1-2 weeks), dedicated to training, and get it all done in one shot. It would just not be practical to drive 3hrs one way every week for a 1-2 hr lesson. As such, how far the school is away from me is less of a concern, and I'm more interested in the quality of education than the proximity to me locally.

[[email protected]]

Unfortunately driving is a big a part of soaring.

[Tomcat222]

On Tuesday, December 5, 2017 at 9:39:37 PM UTC-8, John Foster wrote:
> Is there a general consensus on which schools are regarded as the "best" for glider training? I realize this is difficult to compare, as there are lots of good instructors all over the place, but if someone were interested in taking a block of time off and going somewhere to learn how to fly gliders and get there license to do so privately, where would you recommend?

Warner Springs in Southern California offers excellent training 7 days a week. Very experienced and professional instructors. Great weather makes it flyable nearly every day. My own experience there has been great.

[Citrus Soaring]

John,

You really can't go wrong with any of the commercial schools in this country. All have great staffs and are happy to show you the great sport of soaring.

It really comes down to where you would like to do your training.

If you want to come to the sunshine state we would be happy to work with you. We are now in our 50th year of operation and have two FAA DPE's on staff. www.floridaglidertraining.com

Wherever you decide to go for your training just know your going to have a blast and welcome to the sport!

Regards,

Franklin Burbank
Citrus Soaring
FAA DPE

[richard wilkening]

I’ll put a plug in for Bermuda High Soaring. Plenty of instructors, Tow Pilots, training gliders as well as single seaters to rent.

Frank and Jane Reid run a good operation.

[Robert Seccombe]

I went down to Maricopa Arizona, http://www.azsoaring.com, the third week of October.

I had the required number of flights for the commercial add on so it was a matter of getting the required ground instruction and flights in preparation for the test.

As an instructor, Bruce was great; and for all of the administrative details Doyle was indispensable. I was able to get all of the flying I wanted to get comfortable in the 2-33 as I was used to an L-13 and PW-6. We started Monday morning and I took the check Thursday. Friday was open, as my airline ticket home was for Saturday, so I used the time to knock out the Bronze Badge test and in the afternoon had Jason show me how to loop and wing over the Grob. It was great.

I stayed right on the gliderpatch in the bunk house, very convenient and reasonable; with a well appointed kitchen, easy to diy; but Maricopa is only a few minutes away so I just jammed into town for breakfast at the Sunrise Cafe and dinner at Plaza Bonita.

A great experience, I highly recommend it.

[[email protected]]

I flew with Bruce and Jason last February for a glider add on to my instructor certificate. I give them two thumbs up all around! No matter what the weather is doing anywhere else in the world it's always sunny in Arizona. What ever your experience level they have an aircraft and instructor to suit you. The bunk house is a few steps above camping, but it's all you need. I recommend calling them and get a list of things to study before showing up.. If you do that the experience is more vacation like and less stressful. Give yourself an extra day before check ride and departure in case your check ride doesn't go as planed. You can always use the extra day to do some acro with Jason in the Fox or getting an aircraft check out in some thing more interesting.

[JB Gunner]

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 12:39:37 AM UTC-5, John Foster wrote:
> Is there a general consensus on which schools are regarded as the "best" for glider training? I realize this is difficult to compare, as there are lots of good instructors all over the place, but if someone were interested in taking a block of time off and going somewhere to learn how to fly gliders and get there license to do so privately, where would you recommend?

I used AZ soaring just outside of Phoenix like a few others have posted this October. It was a great experience. I stayed in a hotel in Phoenix about 35 minute drive away. Instructor was Bruce and he did a excellent job. Great little airport for gliders.

[[email protected]]

I've been getting excellent instruction at the Chilhowee Gilderport in Benton, TN, and highly recommend it.

http://www.chilhowee.com

Matt

[John Foster]

On Monday, December 11, 2017 at 8:34:19 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> I've been getting excellent instruction at the Chilhowee Gilderport in Benton, TN, and highly recommend it.
>
> http://www.chilhowee.com
>
> Matt

I love that area. Spent springs and falls riding mountain bikes up and down the trail from Lake Ocoee to the top of the mountain. And then waterskiing on Lake Ocoee. Good times. Never did any flying around there, but from what I remember, it would be a great place.

[[email protected]]

I've been a CFI-G since 1971, instructed in many settings (both commercial, though not recently, and 5 different clubs) ... and I am afraid that I don't think your question is answerable without knowing both more about your background, and then also your intent.

Do you have other flying experience? Or starting from scratch?

What is your goal? Is it just to solo, that's it? Honestly, that's OK if so.

If your goal is to actually go on from that in soaring ... then you need to pick your milieu to make that possible ... and that's a more involved question.

[John Foster]

On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 1:40:34 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> I've been a CFI-G since 1971, instructed in many settings (both commercial, though not recently, and 5 different clubs) ... and I am afraid that I don't think your question is answerable without knowing both more about your background, and then also your intent.
>
> Do you have other flying experience? Or starting from scratch?
>
> What is your goal? Is it just to solo, that's it? Honestly, that's OK if so.
>
> If your goal is to actually go on from that in soaring ... then you need to pick your milieu to make that possible ... and that's a more involved question.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I am not a pilot. I have handled the controls and taken a few turns in a 150 and 172, but that doesn't count. I completed ground school in the early 90s, but didn't have the money to get in the air. I have flown RC model gliders (slope soaring) quite a bit though. Even designed and flew my own 60" foam-core/fiberglass body ship, until I crashed it. I hope to fly the slopes in the mountains locally where I live in MT, but there is no local club. I would like to try cross-country flying as wellThere is a municipal airport about 2 miles from my house though, that serves Air Tractors during wildland fire season in the summer. There is only one glider club/school listed in MT (Bozeman) on the SSA website, which is a good 4hr drive from where I live. There is another in Spokane, WA, which is only 3hrs away, but those are the closest options. If I'm going to drive that far, then it's not practical to do one day a week or month. Better to take a block of time and get as much training as possible during that time, and for that, distance isn't as much of an issue. I believe the area we live in locally has TREMENDOUS potential for glider flying, and would like to ultimately get a club "off the ground" here. Of course, our local mountains may prove to be nothing worth flying once I actually do it though. I may not know what I'm talking about. They certainly are beautiful though.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 8:39:37 AM UTC+3, John Foster wrote:
> Is there a general consensus on which schools are regarded as the "best" for glider training? I realize this is difficult to compare, as there are lots of good instructors all over the place, but if someone were interested in taking a block of time off and going somewhere to learn how to fly gliders and get there license to do so privately, where would you recommend?

If you want to do it in the next couple of months (the southern summer) then come to the Wellington Gliding Club, now operating from a dedicated gliding field at Greytown. Training is in a pair of 18m DG1000, with a SkyLaunch winch to get off the ground.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8nd3kCqpWs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9rarYS40Zg

[[email protected]]

OK John -- now that I understand your situation, I can make some suggestions ... I am not sure that what I am going to say will be what you or others might want to hear (indeed I wonder if this will generate any flames), but this is my experience --

0. -- a "zeroth thing:" when you are learning to fly frequency matters enormously. If you cannot fly at least once a week ... you are basically wasting your time, you'll make next to no progress. This is why "residential" commercial soaring schools can make sense -- you fly A LOT. The obverse of this is the bane of long-distance membership in a club ... and few clubs operate every day of the week, and many are generally weekends only.

1. It's pretty easy to solo (really!) -- and there are various degrees of soloing (more about that), but the hard problem for most beginning soaring pilots is to make the transition from having gotten solo, to actually being a confident glider pilot who can fly cross-country. As an old-timer CFI-G .... there's nothing more frustrating than doing the work to train a student to solo, maybe even pass the Private Pilot's Exam (PPE) and then see them disappear from the sport.

And sadly, that is more the norm than the exception.

2. LOTS of soaring pilots drive 3 hours each way -- I did for years; first living in the Bay Area and going out to Minden, then living in Seattle and going out to Ephrata. One usually does this by either bunking there one way or another... 3 day weekends etc.

3. If there are no local soaring enthusiasts and you are truly determined to be able to fly from someplace close to home then you have two choices -- get to the point where you can fly a motor-glider & buy one (this comes with limitations and is expensive) ... or ... start a soaring club! That's not as impossible as it may appear, if you can find enough like-minded people (like maybe 10). This means finding/arranging for a local tow-plane and persuading a CFI-G to come to you ... this is not out of the question (among other things often they are power pilots too, and that speeds their commute compared to yours).

Now, as far as "getting solo" there are (typically) very substantial differences in the commercial training and club-training settings. Commercial training is fast, expensive, and really oriented toward that solo. In almost all cases in the US commercial training is done in a SGS 2-33 ... a very safe, easy to fly, rugged glider. But this will postpone "the transition" to something that flies (and lands, the hard part) like a modern sailplane ... and the sad fact of the matter AFAIS is that most people who train commercially in 2-33s never go beyond solo, most don't even transition into a 1-26 (a fun low-performance single-seater that is a reasonable transition from a 2-33).

For years the "more advanced" trainer was the Blanik L-13, unfortunately an FAA airworthiness directive grounded them all. There is a successor to the L-13, the L-23, but it isn't all that common. Most instructors (me included) don't like it as much as the L-13, and they are disliked for being maintenance pigs. My club got rid of 2 of them for the latter reason.

The loss of L-13s has shifted most commercial operations back to training in 2-33s exclusively ... and as the gap between 2-33 performance and modern sailplane performance (and flying technique) grows fewer solo students stick with the sport, and I think that this is one of the things that is killing the sport in the US.

In Europe now the standard trainers are the Grob 103, the ASK-21 ... and gasp ... the DuoDiscus!

Given what I see as the realities -- here are my suggestions

If you can find a competent power CFI and arrange access to a Champ or Citabria or possibly J-3 cub (less attractive for some subtle reasons) in your area, my advice is learn to fly that first ... at least through solo, maybe all the way through the PPE.

This will be really efficient, and close to home. And if you can REALLY fly a Champ or Citabria, PARTICULARLY if you can do unruffled full-stall landings in a 10 kt crosswind ... then you can transition into sailplanes really quickly. The ability to land a taildragger in a a crosswind is exactly the skill set needed to transition into a higher-performance sailplane (although the "sight picture" is quite different.)

The 2-33 flies like a Champ without an engine -- I have literally done two tows in a 2-33 with a really experienced power CFI who flew taildraggers really well, said "go fly it solo" ... and he was entirely ready to do that.

From that skill base you can transition quickly to a 1-26, and after a bit of that transition from there if you want to.

The other way is to find training in a G-103 or ASK-21 (the latter are rare in the US). Mostly these will be clubs. Training in the club setting is very different than training at a commercial operation -- you put in a LOT more labor contribution, also a lot more "standing around time." And instructors in clubs (like me!) are usually much less eager to just get you solo ... why do that? Instruction (per se) is almost always free or very low cost in clubs, so there's no incentive (properly seen) to solo early, why take that risk?

I don't like to solo students until they are very close to PP performance -- you only need 10 solo flights and 2 hours (and some more instruction) before taking the PP exam ... there's no incentive in the club setting for early solo, when the goal is to get you through to really being a soaring pilot.

[John Foster]

Thanks again for a well thought out and reasoned reply. The one facility here in Bozeman MT has both a 2-33 and a duo discus that they can use for training. Right now that is the way I’m leaning: schedule a week off and drive the 4hrs or so and take the lessons there untilim competent in the “glass ship”.

You may also see a new post in the future from me regarding what is needed to get a glider club up and running. :-)

[John Foster]

On Thursday, December 21, 2017 at 10:08:21 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> OK John -- now that I understand your situation, I can make some suggestions ... I am not sure that what I am going to say will be what you or others might want to hear (indeed I wonder if this will generate any flames), but this is my experience --
>
> 0. -- a "zeroth thing:" when you are learning to fly frequency matters enormously. If you cannot fly at least once a week ... you are basically wasting your time, you'll make next to no progress. This is why "residential" commercial soaring schools can make sense -- you fly A LOT. The obverse of this is the bane of long-distance membership in a club ... and few clubs operate every day of the week, and many are generally weekends only.
>
> 1. It's pretty easy to solo (really!) -- and there are various degrees of soloing (more about that), but the hard problem for most beginning soaring pilots is to make the transition from having gotten solo, to actually being a confident glider pilot who can fly cross-country. As an old-timer CFI-G ... there's nothing more frustrating than doing the work to train a student to solo, maybe even pass the Private Pilot's Exam (PPE) and then see them disappear from the sport.
>
> And sadly, that is more the norm than the exception.
>
> 2. LOTS of soaring pilots drive 3 hours each way -- I did for years; first living in the Bay Area and going out to Minden, then living in Seattle and going out to Ephrata. One usually does this by either bunking there one way or another... 3 day weekends etc.
>
> 3. If there are no local soaring enthusiasts and you are truly determined to be able to fly from someplace close to home then you have two choices -- get to the point where you can fly a motor-glider & buy one (this comes with limitations and is expensive) ... or ... start a soaring club! That's not as impossible as it may appear, if you can find enough like-minded people (like maybe 10). This means finding/arranging for a local tow-plane and persuading a CFI-G to come to you ... this is not out of the question (among other things often they are power pilots too, and that speeds their commute compared to yours).
>
> Now, as far as "getting solo" there are (typically) very substantial differences in the commercial training and club-training settings. Commercial training is fast, expensive, and really oriented toward that solo. In almost all cases in the US commercial training is done in a SGS 2-33 ... a very safe, easy to fly, rugged glider. But this will postpone "the transition" to something that flies (and lands, the hard part) like a modern sailplane ... and the sad fact of the matter AFAIS is that most people who train commercially in 2-33s never go beyond solo, most don't even transition into a 1-26 (a fun low-performance single-seater that is a reasonable transition from a 2-33).
>
> For years the "more advanced" trainer was the Blanik L-13, unfortunately an FAA airworthiness directive grounded them all. There is a successor to the L-13, the L-23, but it isn't all that common. Most instructors (me included) don't like it as much as the L-13, and they are disliked for being maintenance pigs. My club got rid of 2 of them for the latter reason.
>
> The loss of L-13s has shifted most commercial operations back to training in 2-33s exclusively ... and as the gap between 2-33 performance and modern sailplane performance (and flying technique) grows fewer solo students stick with the sport, and I think that this is one of the things that is killing the sport in the US.
>
> In Europe now the standard trainers are the Grob 103, the ASK-21 ... and gasp ... the DuoDiscus!
>
> Given what I see as the realities -- here are my suggestions
>
> If you can find a competent power CFI and arrange access to a Champ or Citabria or possibly J-3 cub (less attractive for some subtle reasons) in your area, my advice is learn to fly that first ... at least through solo, maybe all the way through the PPE.
>
> This will be really efficient, and close to home. And if you can REALLY fly a Champ or Citabria, PARTICULARLY if you can do unruffled full-stall landings in a 10 kt crosswind ... then you can transition into sailplanes really quickly. The ability to land a taildragger in a a crosswind is exactly the skill set needed to transition into a higher-performance sailplane (although the "sight picture" is quite different.)
>
> The 2-33 flies like a Champ without an engine -- I have literally done two tows in a 2-33 with a really experienced power CFI who flew taildraggers really well, said "go fly it solo" ... and he was entirely ready to do that..
>
> From that skill base you can transition quickly to a 1-26, and after a bit of that transition from there if you want to.
>
> The other way is to find training in a G-103 or ASK-21 (the latter are rare in the US). Mostly these will be clubs. Training in the club setting is very different than training at a commercial operation -- you put in a LOT more labor contribution, also a lot more "standing around time." And instructors in clubs (like me!) are usually much less eager to just get you solo ... why do that? Instruction (per se) is almost always free or very low cost in clubs, so there's no incentive (properly seen) to solo early, why take that risk?
>
> I don't like to solo students until they are very close to PP performance -- you only need 10 solo flights and 2 hours (and some more instruction) before taking the PP exam ... there's no incentive in the club setting for early solo, when the goal is to get you through to really being a soaring pilot.
>
> But if you come into a club solo or better in a Champ, you will move through that training quickly.
>
> A good club offers you the support of experienced soaring pilots flying "glass birds" to help you make the transition to being a real soaring pilot. That's a longer and more subtle transition.

Thanks for another well-thought out and reasoned reply. I appreciate your thoughtfulness. I have contacted the training program in Bozeman, MT, and apparently they use both a 2-33 as well as a Duo Discus. This is the direction I am leaning, and will likely go--take a week off and drive the 4hrs or so and get as much training as possible during that time. And then repeat as often as necessary/possible.

You will also likely see another thread from me in the near future regarding what is involved to get a glider club off the ground. I see so much potential for our local area, and it will be an integral component in getting me more flight time! :-)

[[email protected]]

Best of luck ... let me know how it goes.

I am a little wary of "-take a week off and drive the 4 hrs or so and get as much training as possible during that time. And then repeat as often as necessary/possible. "

Unless you can take a week off every other week or so ... that may not be a good way. You may be better off taking fridays &/or mondays off and doing sequential 3/4-day weekends until you "git 'er done."

In the old days it was common for people to solo a 2-33 in two weeks or less of flying every day at commercial operations -- indeed many years ago I instructed for one outfit that "guaranteed" it -- on closer inspection that guarantee wasn't worth much.

That wasn't such a good idea, and I wouldn't recommend or expect it today .... but it shouldn't take twice that to get to the private pilots ... of STEADY flying.

Remember that back in WWII both fighter and bomber pilots were trained from nothing in 60 days ... granted a lot of them did not last long in combat, but they were trained to handle much more complex aircraft (and instruments, night flying, rudiments of gunnery and combat) in 60 days!

But while you are learning ... and indeed until you are well through the PP and have some experience beyond that ... flying steadily is key.

And if you do want to get a glider club off the ground ... then find at least 10 like-minded people ... and get back to me and or others ... and you'll be surprised how much help and experience will materialize.

Cheers,

Lee

[[email protected]]

Another option for earning your private pilot glider certificate:

1) Use flight simulation to learn 80% of what you need to know to fly a glider

2) Then go fly with a commercial glider operation for your aircraft-based training.

The challenge to this paradigm is finding a flight instructor with the qualifications, experience, and willingness to work with you at-a-distance using simulation-based training.

As luck would have it, I am one such CFIG, and would be willing to take you on.

If you are interested in this option, you can initially contact me via my website: gliderCFI.com

Respectfully,

Scott Manley

[John Foster]

On Friday, December 22, 2017 at 8:35:05 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Another option for earning your private pilot glider certificate:
>
> 1) Use flight simulation to learn 80% of what you need to know to fly a glider
>
> 2) Then go fly with a commercial glider operation for your aircraft-based training.
>
> The challenge to this paradigm is finding a flight instructor with the qualifications, experience, and willingness to work with you at-a-distance using simulation-based training.
>
> As luck would have it, I am one such CFIG, and would be willing to take you on.
>
> If you are interested in this option, you can initially contact me via my website: gliderCFI.com
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Scott Manley

This sounds interesting. Please tell me more about what is needed for this.. I assume a computer to get on the internet. Does one need a joystick? Can you use a mouse or keyboard? Any particular app that needs to be downloaded? Or is it web-based? I'm told that for the book work, the FAA has a decent online text on learning to fly gliders, but my Google-Fu is weak, and haven't been able to find it.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Well, to get the best out of the practice, I believe Condor has a recommended equipment list for controls. A decent joystick and rudder peddles is recommended.
Yes, you can use the "twist" function on a lot of joysticks for rudder, but you lose a bit.
I will say (as a gamer as well as ex CFIG), you still lose a lot of "butt feel" on any PC based simulator. I have flown Condor, not a bad way to go, good controls to the PC make it better, but actually flying is best. But I will NOT discount using Condor as a tool.
Same goes for RC Soaring, you lose a lot of butt input, but the basics are the same.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Friday, December 22, 2017 at 12:19:46 PM UTC-7, John Foster wrote:
> On Friday, December 22, 2017 at 8:35:05 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > Another option for earning your private pilot glider certificate:
> >
> > 1) Use flight simulation to learn 80% of what you need to know to fly a glider
> >
> > 2) Then go fly with a commercial glider operation for your aircraft-based training.
> >
> > The challenge to this paradigm is finding a flight instructor with the qualifications, experience, and willingness to work with you at-a-distance using simulation-based training.
> >
> > As luck would have it, I am one such CFIG, and would be willing to take you on.
> >
> > If you are interested in this option, you can initially contact me via my website: gliderCFI.com
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Scott Manley
>
> This sounds interesting. Please tell me more about what is needed for this. I assume a computer to get on the internet. Does one need a joystick? Can you use a mouse or keyboard? Any particular app that needs to be downloaded? Or is it web-based? I'm told that for the book work, the FAA has a decent online text on learning to fly gliders, but my Google-Fu is weak, and haven't been able to find it.

https://www.cumulus-soaring.com/condor.htm gives an great overview of the Condor realm. I take a setup to aviation events. We have one in our club. Another club I visited recently had the Mach 0.1 from www.gliderbooks.com and charges $8/hour and some of the instructors are using it with students..

Frank Whiteley

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, December 5, 2017 at 9:39:37 PM UTC-8, John Foster wrote:
> Is there a general consensus on which schools are regarded as the "best" for glider training? I realize this is difficult to compare, as there are lots of good instructors all over the place, but if someone were interested in taking a block of time off and going somewhere to learn how to fly gliders and get there license to do so privately, where would you recommend?

John,

I am the developer of the "Mach 0.1 Glider Cockpit Simulator". Feel free to contact me regarding its use as a training tool before and during flight instruction.

Here is a link to a blog of someone I taught remotely using the sim.

http://inspire.eaa.org/2017/05/09/gearing-up-for-my-glider-solo/

Best of luck with your training!

Russell

[John Foster]

On Friday, December 22, 2017 at 2:01:07 PM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> Well, to get the best out of the practice, I believe Condor has a recommended equipment list for controls. A decent joystick and rudder peddles is recommended.
> Yes, you can use the "twist" function on a lot of joysticks for rudder, but you lose a bit.
> I will say (as a gamer as well as ex CFIG), you still lose a lot of "butt feel" on any PC based simulator. I have flown Condor, not a bad way to go, good controls to the PC make it better, but actually flying is best. But I will NOT discount using Condor as a tool.
> Same goes for RC Soaring, you lose a lot of butt input, but the basics are the same.

I've done quite a bit of RC soaring, particularly slope soaring. But I wouldn't expect that to substitute for any real flying. It may give experience in how lift works on a hillside, and how the basic controls work, but I expect them still to be quite different in many ways.

Do the Condor software and the Mach 0.1 simmulator work on a Mac, or just a PC?

[[email protected]]

On Friday, December 22, 2017 at 9:59:23 PM UTC-8, John Foster wrote:
> On Friday, December 22, 2017 at 2:01:07 PM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> > Well, to get the best out of the practice, I believe Condor has a recommended equipment list for controls. A decent joystick and rudder peddles is recommended.
> > Yes, you can use the "twist" function on a lot of joysticks for rudder, but you lose a bit.
> > I will say (as a gamer as well as ex CFIG), you still lose a lot of "butt feel" on any PC based simulator. I have flown Condor, not a bad way to go, good controls to the PC make it better, but actually flying is best. But I will NOT discount using Condor as a tool.
> > Same goes for RC Soaring, you lose a lot of butt input, but the basics are the same.
>
> I've done quite a bit of RC soaring, particularly slope soaring. But I wouldn't expect that to substitute for any real flying. It may give experience in how lift works on a hillside, and how the basic controls work, but I expect them still to be quite different in many ways.
>
> Do the Condor software and the Mach 0.1 simmulator work on a Mac, or just a PC?

Condor only runs on a PC. You can get a refurbished computer from Staples for around $200, to which you will need to add a $30 graphics card. A 24" monitor with speakers will run you another $125 or so.

The Mach 0.1 is just a USB input device. It has two USB cords that plug into the computer and is configured using Condor.

-Russell

[Bruce Hoult]

On Saturday, December 23, 2017 at 10:13:09 AM UTC+3, wrote:
> On Friday, December 22, 2017 at 9:59:23 PM UTC-8, John Foster wrote:
> > On Friday, December 22, 2017 at 2:01:07 PM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> > > Well, to get the best out of the practice, I believe Condor has a recommended equipment list for controls. A decent joystick and rudder peddles is recommended.
> > > Yes, you can use the "twist" function on a lot of joysticks for rudder, but you lose a bit.
> > > I will say (as a gamer as well as ex CFIG), you still lose a lot of "butt feel" on any PC based simulator. I have flown Condor, not a bad way to go, good controls to the PC make it better, but actually flying is best. But I will NOT discount using Condor as a tool.
> > > Same goes for RC Soaring, you lose a lot of butt input, but the basics are the same.
> >
> > I've done quite a bit of RC soaring, particularly slope soaring. But I wouldn't expect that to substitute for any real flying. It may give experience in how lift works on a hillside, and how the basic controls work, but I expect them still to be quite different in many ways.
> >
> > Do the Condor software and the Mach 0.1 simmulator work on a Mac, or just a PC?
>
> Condor only runs on a PC. You can get a refurbished computer from Staples for around $200, to which you will need to add a $30 graphics card. A 24" monitor with speakers will run you another $125 or so.
>
> The Mach 0.1 is just a USB input device. It has two USB cords that plug into the computer and is configured using Condor.
>
> -Russell

Condor says it needs 1+ GHz CPU. Anything from a Core2 Duo and up is more than enough. The graphics card is more important, and the cheapest one you can buy new today (or five years ago, if not 10) is fine.

It also runs very well in VMWare Player on an Intel Mac. For some reason the graphics were corrupted on Parallels last time I tried it (5 years ago maybe) though it otherwise ran great.

Rudder pedals would be good for those who are not already a pilot, to get used to using them, but I find a twist joystick to be fine.

[[email protected]]

John,

Call me.

608-222-6843

Scott Manley - CFIG

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, December 23, 2017 at 1:13:09 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> Condor only runs on a PC. You can get a refurbished computer from Staples for around $200, to which you will need to add a $30 graphics card. A 24" monitor with speakers will run you another $125 or so.

Since I prefer Linux/Mac, I've been practice-flying with the Silent Wings Soaring Simulator this winter:
http://www.silentwings.no/

It runs on Windows/Linux/MacOSX. It supports network play.

Silent Wings dedicated to soaring in a way that X-Plane 11 (which has towplane and thermalling as add-on features) do not. The towplane simulation is good enough that you can practice boxing the wake and slackline recoveries.

I have mostly good things to say about Silent Wings.

-Luke

[John Foster]

These are the mountains I’m wanting to fly:

<a href="http://s36.photobucket.com/user/johngfoster/media/67A10D25-F1DF-46A7-ADAC-A7303590AF4F_zpsle4azmla.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e21/johngfoster/67A10D25-F1DF-46A7-ADAC-A7303590AF4F_zpsle4azmla.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 67A10D25-F1DF-46A7-ADAC-A7303590AF4F_zpsle4azmla.jpg"></a>

<a href="http://s36.photobucket.com/user/johngfoster/media/A2CD794F-4152-46E2-BA25-03D6CD76460D_zpscaoxow1l.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e21/johngfoster/A2CD794F-4152-46E2-BA25-03D6CD76460D_zpscaoxow1l.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo A2CD794F-4152-46E2-BA25-03D6CD76460D_zpscaoxow1l.jpg"></a>

<a href="http://s36.photobucket.com/user/johngfoster/media/1D07D359-3E62-4354-8CEB-B5B10785D5B5_zpsnvilecjj.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e21/johngfoster/1D07D359-3E62-4354-8CEB-B5B10785D5B5_zpsnvilecjj.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1D07D359-3E62-4354-8CEB-B5B10785D5B5_zpsnvilecjj.jpg"></a>

[[email protected]]

I use the MFG Crosswind rudder pedals for Condor. They are about 100x better than the CH pedals I used to have. I highly recommend them. http://mfg.simundza.com/products

[son_of_flubber]

On Saturday, December 23, 2017 at 4:34:17 PM UTC-5, John Foster wrote:
> These are the mountains I’m wanting to fly:

I want to fly those mountains too. Bruno Vassel makes that look easy. Soaring is not easy. Flying in mountains is even less easy. Manage expectations.

The good news is that you can enjoy climbing the learning curve for 10-20+ years. Impossible to say at what point you'll be ready to fly those mountains.

The long learning curve in soaring is part of the appeal. Gradually getting better keeps it interesting.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

What, had not heard this. Have only flown Parowan and Nephi, but Logan is on my dream list. What was a "fiasco" about the Logan Nationals?

On Sunday, December 24, 2017 at 1:19:14 PM UTC-8, wrote:

> I've never flown from Logan, have mixed feelings about doing that. The Nationals there was a memorable fiasco ...

[SoaringXCellence]

Jon,

The whole discussion about the Logan contest is in the archives. Please look it up rather than start a rehash.

I flew at Logan in 2015 for the first time. My third flight was from Logan, north, jump over to Afton WY, and then almost to the Tetons (Which were covered by thunderstorms, then reverse course back to Logan.

My longest distance flight, My first time at Logan, flown in a 50 year-old Libelle H301. At no time did I feel that I was in danger, or out of range of a reasonable landout site.

If Tim Taylor wants to do another Logan ridge camp, be sure to sign up.

Mike

ps Here's the OLC link, if you're interested.
https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=4649350

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

To me, using a simulator for basic info is not bad.
Using it for intensive ridge/wave Soaring can have issues. What the computer provides vs. reality can hurt you/ real things.

Yes, after the fact, I have used simulators to "fly the ridge" in mid PA, but I have been there quite a few times. It was good to look things over knowing it was a simulation.

To use a simulator as the only thing before going to a challenging site, I don't think so......too many variables. Totally different than using a simulator to learn a racetrack before you actually drive it. The pavement won't move, a good simulator has decent physics, so how much rubber is down is among the biggest variable other than how you drive the course.

So yes, doing basic instruction on "flat terrain" using a computer simulator, fine, it has value. Not as good as the real thing, but close enough to help the learning curve.

[Tim Taylor]

Sorry, I don't know who Lee is. He seems to be spreading misinformation about a site he has never flown at. Anyone who has flown at Logan would know that all the valleys have many landable fields. If you have watched Bruno's videos you can see valleys along all the ridges we fly. As with any mountain site you should respect the area, but with a good briefing you should be able to fly some of the most outstanding alpine soaring in the world with thousands of square miles of alfalfa fields as well as many airports to land on. We are always glad to work with visiting pilots to share local knowledge and allow them to gain confidence in ridge and mountain soaring.

TT

[John Foster]

On Sunday, December 24, 2017 at 8:32:25 PM UTC-7, Tim Taylor wrote:
> Sorry, I don't know who Lee is. He seems to be spreading misinformation about a site he has never flown at. Anyone who has flown at Logan would know that all the valleys have many landable fields. If you have watched Bruno's videos you can see valleys along all the ridges we fly. As with any mountain site you should respect the area, but with a good briefing you should be able to fly some of the most outstanding alpine soaring in the world with thousands of square miles of alfalfa fields as well as many airports to land on. We are always glad to work with visiting pilots to share local knowledge and allow them to gain confidence in ridge and mountain soaring.
>
> TT

Once I have my glider pilot's license, I may have to come pay you guys a few visits down in Logan. Watching you fly those mountain ridges is so inspiring!

I find it interesting how many twists and turns this thread has taken. A closely related question the comes to mind. What texts are recommended for the book work? Anything online? I seem to remember someone mentioning the FAA had a good educational text online on soaring.

[Robert Seccombe]

For starters, the FAA Glider Flying Handbook. Airsailing sent me the Burch Practical Test Guide as that's what they use; and he likes the SSA Soaring Flight Manual, it is out of print but obtainable used. I have a handful of Bob Wander's booklets all of them real good; Thermaling, Speed to Fly, and Breaking Apron Strings, and of course his practical test guides. Landing Out was ok if you like Mr. Spock, I understand what he was getting at about discipline, but I didn't warm up to it. Thomas Knauff's book didn't have the continuity I like. Welch and Irving go in to a lot of depth to say the least; it would be good to know some calculus. Beyond Gliding Distance is not a huuuge book but concise. And the real piece of art is Advance Soaring Made Easy, by Bernard Eckey, with editing by Tony Burton.

A large part of my study program included going through the SSA Soaring Safety Foundation's Training Programs. Tow Pilot, Wing Runner and the Bronze Badge Study Guide. The Study guide has 290 multiple choice questions in blocks of 20 and I would go through them to find out what I didn't know and it gives references. It was indispensable, I think during the three months leading up to my going down to Airsailing I went through it 3 or 4 times; and I needed it, with all the airspace questions it was a learning experience. A lot of good calculation problems, just a lot about a lot of stuff, it was good; and, after that, I was set up to take the Bronze Badge written test the day after I obtained the rating.

Happy Learning,

Robert
Condor SE3

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Sunday, December 24, 2017 at 2:49:26 PM UTC-8, SoaringXCellence wrote:

>
> If Tim Taylor wants to do another Logan ridge camp, be sure to sign up.
>
> Mike
>
> ps Here's the OLC link, if you're interested.
> https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=4649350

Sign me up too! I was not in soaring while the Logan camps/contests were being held. Sure loved flying Nephi last year.