Buy Glider without looking

[Casey[_2_]]

Has anyone every sold a glider without the buyer looking at it?

I have my glider listed for sell and the guy is buying without looking at it and sending a cashiers check and arranging shipping....sound familiar.

Casey

[Ben Coleman]

On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 22:26:52 UTC+11, Casey wrote:
> Has anyone every sold a glider without the buyer looking at it?
>
> I have my glider listed for sell and the guy is buying without looking at it and sending a cashiers check and arranging shipping....sound familiar.
>
> Casey

I bought mine without looking. So it can happen. Although I paid for an inspection by a local repair shop. Not recommended though, worth the trip even overseas!

Cheers Ben

[[email protected]]

Be careful of the scam where you are offered more than your asking price and then a later request to send some of the additional funds to another party usually identified as his broker or similar. The request will come after the check has been cashed but before it has cleared (which it will not).

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 6:26:52 AM UTC-5, Casey wrote:
> Has anyone every sold a glider without the buyer looking at it?
>
> I have my glider listed for sell and the guy is buying without looking at it and sending a cashiers check and arranging shipping....sound familiar.
>
> Casey

I have sold 2 gliders w/o buyer seeing it but your question (I assume tongue in cheek) raises red flags. My local gliderport had 3 gliders listed for sale and all 3 of us got the same offer. The language in the offer often intimates the buyer has no knowledge of soaring. One buyer gave a mailing address which I Googled. It was a vacant house! Check the SSA website to determine if the buyer is a member. If the offer still doesn't pass the smell test insist the buyer send his rep to inspect the ship.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 6:26:52 AM UTC-5, Casey wrote:
> Has anyone every sold a glider without the buyer looking at it?
>
> I have my glider listed for sell and the guy is buying without looking at it and sending a cashiers check and arranging shipping....sound familiar.
>
> Casey

I forgot one other scam killer. Insist on using an aircraft title company. I know one is available through AOPA.

[[email protected]]

I agreed to buy my Pegasus without having seen it in person first. That said, I did have a very knowledgeable person who was very familiar with the glider vouch for its condition. I also listed my glider for sale on W&W and got the same scam reply that you (and others) got.

[AS]

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 7:08:00 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 6:26:52 AM UTC-5, Casey wrote:
> > Has anyone every sold a glider without the buyer looking at it?
> >
> > I have my glider listed for sell and the guy is buying without looking at it and sending a cashiers check and arranging shipping....sound familiar..
> >
> > Casey
>
> I have sold 2 gliders w/o buyer seeing it but your question (I assume tongue in cheek) raises red flags. My local gliderport had 3 gliders listed for sale and all 3 of us got the same offer. The language in the offer often intimates the buyer has no knowledge of soaring. One buyer gave a mailing address which I Googled. It was a vacant house! Check the SSA website to determine if the buyer is a member. If the offer still doesn't pass the smell test insist the buyer send his rep to inspect the ship.

>>> One buyer gave a mailing address which I Googled. It was a vacant house! <<<
That poor Nigerian Prince probably had to sell all his earthly belongings and move out of his house just to afford your glider! C'mon - have a heart and accept his offer - it's close to Christmas! ;-)
But seriously - the same scam is being pulled worldwide on anything from planes, cars and boats. The German soaring forum is full of warnings about it.. A serious buyer will not object to presenting a cashier's check or a bank transfer.

Uli
'AS'

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 6:26:52 AM UTC-5, Casey wrote:
> Has anyone every sold a glider without the buyer looking at it?
>
> I have my glider listed for sell and the guy is buying without looking at it and sending a cashiers check and arranging shipping....sound familiar.
>
> Casey

Most probably a scam... I got three of those when I was selling my glider.... scam is they send you a check for more than what you ask... then they ask you to refund the "extra" money... by the time their check bounces they are gone with your money... Just ask them to give you their phone number... you'll never hear from them again...

Enrique
KO

[WB]

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 5:26:52 AM UTC-6, Casey wrote:
> Has anyone every sold a glider without the buyer looking at it?
>
> I have my glider listed for sell and the guy is buying without looking at it and sending a cashiers check and arranging shipping....sound familiar.
>
> Casey

I bought my Libelle out of Germany without seeing it, except for pictures. I wired the owner money and he put the glider on the boat at Bremerhausen. The only glitch was that the bank held onto the money for a few days before actually sending it. The gentleman in Germany did not get his money until the glider was actually loaded on the RoRo boat and out to sea. He was understandably nervous about that. Worked out in the end. That was 18 years ago this month. Still have that Libelle.

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 3:26:52 AM UTC-8, Casey wrote:
> ...the guy is ... sending a cashiers check and arranging shipping...

Just to go all Captain Obvious on this one, the way this scam typically works is that the check is fake, and usually written for an amount greater than the price of the goods. The check looks real enough that the bank accepts the check for deposit. But a day or two later when it turns out that there are no actual funds behind the check, the bank simply (and rightfully) declines to deposit the non-existent money in your account.

The expectation is that you will send them cash or a wire transfer for the overage before you find out the check is fake. They get the goods and the extra money, and you get nothing. For something awkward like a glider, the "shipping arrangements" are often fictional, and all they're after is the money.

--Bob K.

[Darryl Ramm]

Does the guy exist. Nobody legitimate (at least in the USA, assuming you are in the USA) goes and buys a glider where you can't find out about them. Where they fly/are learning to fly, what club they belong to, who they know you know, profiles on social media, and confirmable things like phone numbers, addresses, etc.

I've both purchased and sold a glider unseen/uninspected (the same glider).

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 10:17:32 AM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> Does the guy exist...

Does existence exist?

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 5:26:52 AM UTC-6, Casey wrote:
> Has anyone every sold a glider without the buyer looking at it?
>
> I have my glider listed for sell and the guy is buying without looking at it and sending a cashiers check and arranging shipping....sound familiar.
>
> Casey

I bought my sailplane sight unseen with no problems. But the funny thing is that when I upgraded to a real trailer than the dog pound homemade piece of crap that came with the sailplane and then took an ad out on wings and wheels for the old trailer I got the scam offers! My ad even was used as the warning about such ads on the W&W site.

[Paul Agnew]

The Scam warning page on Glidersource has a lot of great information. http://glidersource.com/scams.shtml

I posted an ad to sell my trailer last week and have not received any scam attempts as of yet. I wonder if it's because I added "No 419" to the ad. That's the legal code for fraud in Nigeria and warns them not to waste my time.

Paul A.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

I guess I shouldn't try to buy anything glider related. I have a low presence online for a reason. Yes, you may find me, you may feel I'm OK, but sill, low exposure online.

Granted, waaaaayyyyyyyy too easy to get the, "deal of the century" and get burned.

[2G]

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 3:26:52 AM UTC-8, Casey wrote:
> Has anyone every sold a glider without the buyer looking at it?
>
> I have my glider listed for sell and the guy is buying without looking at it and sending a cashiers check and arranging shipping....sound familiar.
>
> Casey

I both sold and bought two motorgliders w/o the buyer or myself inspecting them. In my case, I went on the recommendation of a trusted friend, and it worked out fine. The buyer of my glider was in Brazil and only came when it was time to ship it out of country (what an experience!).

I would strongly recommend a bank wire transfer over a cashier's check, however. Cashier's checks can be forged. If you must go the check route, send a copy of the check to the issuing bank and have it verified (call them first).

Tom

[WB]

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 9:55:59 AM UTC-6, WB wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 5:26:52 AM UTC-6, Casey wrote:
> > Has anyone every sold a glider without the buyer looking at it?
> >
> > I have my glider listed for sell and the guy is buying without looking at it and sending a cashiers check and arranging shipping....sound familiar..
> >
> > Casey
>
> I bought my Libelle out of Germany without seeing it, except for pictures.. I wired the owner money and he put the glider on the boat at Bremerhausen.. The only glitch was that the bank held onto the money for a few days before actually sending it. The gentleman in Germany did not get his money until the glider was actually loaded on the RoRo boat and out to sea. He was understandably nervous about that. Worked out in the end. That was 18 years ago this month. Still have that Libelle.


***Bremerhaven***

[2G]

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 5:51:31 PM UTC-8, WB wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 9:55:59 AM UTC-6, WB wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 5:26:52 AM UTC-6, Casey wrote:
> > > Has anyone every sold a glider without the buyer looking at it?
> > >
> > > I have my glider listed for sell and the guy is buying without looking at it and sending a cashiers check and arranging shipping....sound familiar.
> > >
> > > Casey
> >
> > I bought my Libelle out of Germany without seeing it, except for pictures. I wired the owner money and he put the glider on the boat at Bremerhausen. The only glitch was that the bank held onto the money for a few days before actually sending it. The gentleman in Germany did not get his money until the glider was actually loaded on the RoRo boat and out to sea. He was understandably nervous about that. Worked out in the end. That was 18 years ago this month. Still have that Libelle.
>
>
> ***Bremerhaven***

The process, if EVERYTHING goes right, takes several days for an international transfer, so plan for it. In my case it take 3 separate attempts until we got all the necessary documentation and correct bank routing numbers (they are different for international vs domestic) to the bank. Plus, I was flying long flights out of Ely, NV so each of these missteps took a couple of days to fix. Eventually everything got worked out and the transfer took place.

There are A LOT of moving parts to sale of this type. If someone wants some advice on this they can PM me.

Tom

[Darryl Ramm]

(Namechecking a philosopher): Well David Hume existed because Monty Python mentioned him in a song. Everything else I am not sure about.... https://youtu.be/PtgKkifJ0Pw

[[email protected]]

If anyone is truly sure they are being scammed then why not play with the prospective buyer a little. I was selling an item, non gliding related, and suspected I was being scammed. So I told the buyer that the gonculator valve was acting up and would need to be replaced and that also the intermittent relay diode regulator did not work either. Buddy was OK with these and would replace them when he received the item.

[Tango Whisky]

Le jeudi 7 décembre 2017 12:31:08 UTC+1, a écritÂ*:
> If anyone is truly sure they are being scammed then why not play with the prospective buyer a little. I was selling an item, non gliding related, and suspected I was being scammed. So I told the buyer that the gonculator valve was acting up and would need to be replaced and that also the intermittent relay diode regulator did not work either. Buddy was OK with these and would replace them when he received the item.

I remember a story where some guy took up the challenge and actually made the scammer pay him hundred dollars.

[OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

Here is an entertaining "turning the tables on a scammer" article for your reading enjoyment.

I cannot even believe what they were able to get this scammer to do.

http://419eater.com/html/okorie.htm

[Quietpilot]

truly entertaining stories.
http://419eater.com/html/SkeletonCoast/
and
http://419eater.com/html/RoadToChadDarfur/ are my favorites.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 6:26:52 AM UTC-5, Casey wrote:
> Has anyone every sold a glider without the buyer looking at it?
>
> I have my glider listed for sell and the guy is buying without looking at it and sending a cashiers check and arranging shipping....sound familiar.
>
> Casey

Maybe I missing something but not sure why your worried about scam.

You have the glider. The buyer is sending you a cashier's check and arranging for shipping.

Therefore, you can cash the check before the bill of sale is signed and the glider is shipped.

So you get your money and he gets the glider.

Did i miss something?

[[email protected]]

Banks sometimes take weeks to realize the cashiers check is bogus. Then they want their money back.

[2G]

On Saturday, December 9, 2017 at 1:14:47 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 6:26:52 AM UTC-5, Casey wrote:
> > Has anyone every sold a glider without the buyer looking at it?
> >
> > I have my glider listed for sell and the guy is buying without looking at it and sending a cashiers check and arranging shipping....sound familiar.
> >
> > Casey
>
> Maybe I missing something but not sure why your worried about scam.
>
> You have the glider. The buyer is sending you a cashier's check and arranging for shipping.
>
> Therefore, you can cash the check before the bill of sale is signed and the glider is shipped.
>
> So you get your money and he gets the glider.
>
> Did i miss something?

Yeah, you missed about $100k or so. To review, cashier's checks can be FORGED. That means they are NO GOOD. Got it now?

Tom

[[email protected]]

>
> Maybe I missing something but not sure why your worried about scam.
>
> You have the glider. The buyer is sending you a cashier's check and arranging for shipping.
>
> Therefore, you can cash the check before the bill of sale is signed and the glider is shipped.
>
> So you get your money and he gets the glider.
>
> Did i miss something?

Only one of the oldest scams since the internet was invented. ;-)

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

Sometimes, buying a glider without looking is the best way to do it. Otherwise, you might not. :-)

Steve Leonard

[Tom BravoMike]

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 4:33:51 PM UTC-6, Steve Leonard wrote:
> Sometimes, buying a glider without looking is the best way to do it. Otherwise, you might not. :-)
>
> Steve Leonard

Yeah... Sounds like: 'I'll give a good piece of advice - do what you think is right...'

[Casey[_2_]]

It appears that a couple of the inquires I received are from scammers.

First guy got me down on price a little, said he would send a check, got my name and address. All coms via email and coms were very proper. Almost too good. He responded days after each of his inquires even when I responded immediately to his. I never received a check so I contacted an inquirer only a day after the deal with 1st buyer.

Second guy texted and took a long time to respond back. I looked up his area code in Oregon. Oregon is a long way from NC to buy a glider, or are there no decent glider on the west coast?
He wanted my Name and physical address and not my PO box. Later he wanted my email address to let me know the check was on the way. I said to just text me that info and that I do not give out my email address. I then asked him to call me or I would assume he is a scammer. He called and the connection was poor and delayed, but I was able to pick out a south African accent. Told him connection was too bad and I could not understand him. I asked for his name and pilot certificate number. He text back "Sorry am an engine, Marine engine. and i only request for my son Birthday gift. His a pilot." BTW, first guy was also buyer glider for his son.

BTW, I have sold many high value items over the web. Once I received a stolen check from church in Ohio. Another time received a counterfeit cashiers check from a bank in NY. Check looked real, but then the emblem was just so slightly blurred. Bank in NY did not have that check number on file. Never heard back from either of those guys. And there have been several dozen more I've either ignored or played around with. Talked to a guy in Kenya for awhile on the phone once. I could hear other conversations in the background.

So my conclusion is either; 1) scammers are hitting Wings and Wheels, or 2) fellow sellers are trying to discourage other sellers with possibly similar gliders to withdraw their ad due to getting frustrated with scammers, leaving less completion form them in selling their gliders.

Anything is possible.

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 5:32:09 PM UTC-6, Casey wrote:

> So my conclusion is either; 1) scammers are hitting Wings and Wheels,

Yes, they are. Have been for a long time. They have also cruised soaridaho. Most recent inquiry on HP-14 projects I have listed there (listing from 2010!) started off sounding maybe real. Second e-mail from him had a pdf attached. I responded with "Now, why on earth would I open a pdf from someone who is wanting to buy something from me? Try again, buddy." Poof! He was gone.

Some who are real will seem fake, and some who are fake may seem real. Answer inquiries, sort out, and be cautious.

Steve Leonard

[2G]

On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 5:38:00 PM UTC-8, Steve Leonard wrote:
> On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 5:32:09 PM UTC-6, Casey wrote:
>
> > So my conclusion is either; 1) scammers are hitting Wings and Wheels,
>
> Yes, they are. Have been for a long time. They have also cruised soaridaho. Most recent inquiry on HP-14 projects I have listed there (listing from 2010!) started off sounding maybe real. Second e-mail from him had a pdf attached. I responded with "Now, why on earth would I open a pdf from someone who is wanting to buy something from me? Try again, buddy." Poof! He was gone.
>
> Some who are real will seem fake, and some who are fake may seem real. Answer inquiries, sort out, and be cautious.
>
> Steve Leonard

Weeding out the scammers is, unfortunately, a necessity these days when selling high valued goods. Have them provide a banking reference (bank, name, address). They will have to have this to complete the transaction; if they balk they're likely scammers. The other option is to have them show up at your location with cash - scammers will NEVER do that. Bottom line: only accept a wire transfer of their funds into your account (NO cashier's checks unless you KNOW the buyer). This cuts thru all of the bull****. That is what I did on the last gliders I bought and sold.

Tom

[Dan Marotta]

The last glider I sold, the buyer came to inspect the ship.Â* It was
clear he was a good guy from the USA so I accepted his personal check
for a down payment.Â* I agreed to deliver the glider half way to his
place and he wired the remaining funds into my account before I left
Moriarty.Â* I didn't ask for that; it just worked out that way with
banking hours, etc.Â* We met in a motel parking lot in Kingman, AZ, we
and our wives shared dinner, he paid for dinner and our rooms, and we
parted as friends, both of us happy.Â* My wife and I also enjoyed the
road trip down old Route 66 through Peach Springs, AZ.Â* Do you remember
Burma Shave ads?

On 12/14/2017 11:07 PM, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 5:38:00 PM UTC-8, Steve Leonard wrote:
>> On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 5:32:09 PM UTC-6, Casey wrote:
>>
>>> So my conclusion is either; 1) scammers are hitting Wings and Wheels,
>> Yes, they are. Have been for a long time. They have also cruised soaridaho. Most recent inquiry on HP-14 projects I have listed there (listing from 2010!) started off sounding maybe real. Second e-mail from him had a pdf attached. I responded with "Now, why on earth would I open a pdf from someone who is wanting to buy something from me? Try again, buddy." Poof! He was gone.
>>
>> Some who are real will seem fake, and some who are fake may seem real. Answer inquiries, sort out, and be cautious.
>>
>> Steve Leonard
> Weeding out the scammers is, unfortunately, a necessity these days when selling high valued goods. Have them provide a banking reference (bank, name, address). They will have to have this to complete the transaction; if they balk they're likely scammers. The other option is to have them show up at your location with cash - scammers will NEVER do that. Bottom line: only accept a wire transfer of their funds into your account (NO cashier's checks unless you KNOW the buyer). This cuts thru all of the bull****. That is what I did on the last gliders I bought and sold.
>
> Tom

--
Dan, 5J

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 10:52:01 AM UTC-8, Bob Kuykendall wrote:

> Does existence exist?

If existence has feelings, we're sure to get a Pixar movie about it soon.

[2G]

On Friday, December 15, 2017 at 9:11:38 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> The last glider I sold, the buyer came to inspect the ship.Â* It was
> clear he was a good guy from the USA so I accepted his personal check
> for a down payment.Â* I agreed to deliver the glider half way to his
> place and he wired the remaining funds into my account before I left
> Moriarty.Â* I didn't ask for that; it just worked out that way with
> banking hours, etc.Â* We met in a motel parking lot in Kingman, AZ, we
> and our wives shared dinner, he paid for dinner and our rooms, and we
> parted as friends, both of us happy.Â* My wife and I also enjoyed the
> road trip down old Route 66 through Peach Springs, AZ.Â* Do you remember
> Burma Shave ads?
>
> On 12/14/2017 11:07 PM, 2G wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 5:38:00 PM UTC-8, Steve Leonard wrote:
> >> On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 5:32:09 PM UTC-6, Casey wrote:
> >>
> >>> So my conclusion is either; 1) scammers are hitting Wings and Wheels,
> >> Yes, they are. Have been for a long time. They have also cruised soaridaho. Most recent inquiry on HP-14 projects I have listed there (listing from 2010!) started off sounding maybe real. Second e-mail from him had a pdf attached. I responded with "Now, why on earth would I open a pdf from someone who is wanting to buy something from me? Try again, buddy." Poof! He was gone.
> >>
> >> Some who are real will seem fake, and some who are fake may seem real. Answer inquiries, sort out, and be cautious.
> >>
> >> Steve Leonard
> > Weeding out the scammers is, unfortunately, a necessity these days when selling high valued goods. Have them provide a banking reference (bank, name, address). They will have to have this to complete the transaction; if they balk they're likely scammers. The other option is to have them show up at your location with cash - scammers will NEVER do that. Bottom line: only accept a wire transfer of their funds into your account (NO cashier's checks unless you KNOW the buyer). This cuts thru all of the bull****. That is what I did on the last gliders I bought and sold.
> >
> > Tom
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

A personal check, or a cashier's check, is ok if you have the luxury of time. It will take up to a week for the check to clear (US bank only). I wouldn't even think of it for a foreign bank. This helps make the sale take place, which is what you are trying to make happen in the first place.

Delivery should be explicitly stated in the original ad. For instance, you can state you will deliver the glider within an xx mile radius at no cost. Or you can add a mileage cost. It's all up to you. This usually reflects how hard or soft the market is for used gliders, and the economy overall. Basically, tho, once payment is made the new owner takes possession and it is up to him/her to move it (and don't forget about insurance!)

Tom

[Dan Marotta]

As I said, he was a good guy and I like to think that I am, too. Moving
the ship was my suggestion as he was on the west coast and I felt the
need for a road trip any way (I'm retired).Â* The insurance was mine
until I handed him the keys to the trailer then I called my insurance
agent and told him that I'd sold the glider.Â* It was a one time thing.Â*
Some times you can tell if a deal is fishy but this time I knew it was
not.Â* There was time for the personal check to clear but the thought
never crossed my mind.

When I sold my Pipistrel, the buyer gave me a personal check for the
down payment and flew back down to Moriarty a week or so later to pick
it up.Â* Again his check cleared.Â* Final payment was mostly with a wire
transfer but also with a wad of cash.Â* Insurance was handled as previously.

When I bought my LAK-17a, I drove 500 or so miles to look at it and took
it for a 2 hour test flight.Â* We agreed on the sale and the next day I
wired the money, took possession, and drove away.

Not every transaction has to be hard assed, but there is the time for
that, too.

On 12/16/2017 6:23 PM, 2G wrote:
> On Friday, December 15, 2017 at 9:11:38 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> The last glider I sold, the buyer came to inspect the ship.Â* It was
>> clear he was a good guy from the USA so I accepted his personal check
>> for a down payment.Â* I agreed to deliver the glider half way to his
>> place and he wired the remaining funds into my account before I left
>> Moriarty.Â* I didn't ask for that; it just worked out that way with
>> banking hours, etc.Â* We met in a motel parking lot in Kingman, AZ, we
>> and our wives shared dinner, he paid for dinner and our rooms, and we
>> parted as friends, both of us happy.Â* My wife and I also enjoyed the
>> road trip down old Route 66 through Peach Springs, AZ.Â* Do you remember
>> Burma Shave ads?
>>
>> On 12/14/2017 11:07 PM, 2G wrote:
>>> On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 5:38:00 PM UTC-8, Steve Leonard wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 5:32:09 PM UTC-6, Casey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> So my conclusion is either; 1) scammers are hitting Wings and Wheels,
>>>> Yes, they are. Have been for a long time. They have also cruised soaridaho. Most recent inquiry on HP-14 projects I have listed there (listing from 2010!) started off sounding maybe real. Second e-mail from him had a pdf attached. I responded with "Now, why on earth would I open a pdf from someone who is wanting to buy something from me? Try again, buddy." Poof! He was gone.
>>>>
>>>> Some who are real will seem fake, and some who are fake may seem real. Answer inquiries, sort out, and be cautious.
>>>>
>>>> Steve Leonard
>>> Weeding out the scammers is, unfortunately, a necessity these days when selling high valued goods. Have them provide a banking reference (bank, name, address). They will have to have this to complete the transaction; if they balk they're likely scammers. The other option is to have them show up at your location with cash - scammers will NEVER do that. Bottom line: only accept a wire transfer of their funds into your account (NO cashier's checks unless you KNOW the buyer). This cuts thru all of the bull****. That is what I did on the last gliders I bought and sold.
>>>
>>> Tom
>> --
>> Dan, 5J
> A personal check, or a cashier's check, is ok if you have the luxury of time. It will take up to a week for the check to clear (US bank only). I wouldn't even think of it for a foreign bank. This helps make the sale take place, which is what you are trying to make happen in the first place.
>
> Delivery should be explicitly stated in the original ad. For instance, you can state you will deliver the glider within an xx mile radius at no cost. Or you can add a mileage cost. It's all up to you. This usually reflects how hard or soft the market is for used gliders, and the economy overall. Basically, tho, once payment is made the new owner takes possession and it is up to him/her to move it (and don't forget about insurance!)
>
> Tom

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

Many warnings here re scams are apposite.

That being said the practice is very common, but almost always occurs either because the buyer & seller know and trust each other, or because the buyer knows somebody who has seen the sailplane and vouches for it.

The common problem from a buyer's POV is that if you are going to travel a long way to get a glider, you are in a very weak position to dicker when you get there. It's a whole lot smarter to have somebody you trust look it over for you, even if you pay them something ... than to drive a 1000 miles and then face going home empty handed, or upset that you wouldn't have paid that much "had you known."

[2G]

On Sunday, December 17, 2017 at 8:38:56 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> As I said, he was a good guy and I like to think that I am, too. Moving
> the ship was my suggestion as he was on the west coast and I felt the
> need for a road trip any way (I'm retired).Â* The insurance was mine
> until I handed him the keys to the trailer then I called my insurance
> agent and told him that I'd sold the glider.Â* It was a one time thing.Â*
> Some times you can tell if a deal is fishy but this time I knew it was
> not.Â* There was time for the personal check to clear but the thought
> never crossed my mind.
>
> When I sold my Pipistrel, the buyer gave me a personal check for the
> down payment and flew back down to Moriarty a week or so later to pick
> it up.Â* Again his check cleared.Â* Final payment was mostly with a wire
> transfer but also with a wad of cash.Â* Insurance was handled as previously.
>
> When I bought my LAK-17a, I drove 500 or so miles to look at it and took
> it for a 2 hour test flight.Â* We agreed on the sale and the next day I
> wired the money, took possession, and drove away.
>
> Not every transaction has to be hard assed, but there is the time for
> that, too.
>
> On 12/16/2017 6:23 PM, 2G wrote:
> > On Friday, December 15, 2017 at 9:11:38 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >> The last glider I sold, the buyer came to inspect the ship.Â* It was
> >> clear he was a good guy from the USA so I accepted his personal check
> >> for a down payment.Â* I agreed to deliver the glider half way to his
> >> place and he wired the remaining funds into my account before I left
> >> Moriarty.Â* I didn't ask for that; it just worked out that way with
> >> banking hours, etc.Â* We met in a motel parking lot in Kingman, AZ, we
> >> and our wives shared dinner, he paid for dinner and our rooms, and we
> >> parted as friends, both of us happy.Â* My wife and I also enjoyed the
> >> road trip down old Route 66 through Peach Springs, AZ.Â* Do you remember
> >> Burma Shave ads?
> >>
> >> On 12/14/2017 11:07 PM, 2G wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 5:38:00 PM UTC-8, Steve Leonard wrote:
> >>>> On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 5:32:09 PM UTC-6, Casey wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> So my conclusion is either; 1) scammers are hitting Wings and Wheels,
> >>>> Yes, they are. Have been for a long time. They have also cruised soaridaho. Most recent inquiry on HP-14 projects I have listed there (listing from 2010!) started off sounding maybe real. Second e-mail from him had a pdf attached. I responded with "Now, why on earth would I open a pdf from someone who is wanting to buy something from me? Try again, buddy." Poof! He was gone.
> >>>>
> >>>> Some who are real will seem fake, and some who are fake may seem real. Answer inquiries, sort out, and be cautious.
> >>>>
> >>>> Steve Leonard
> >>> Weeding out the scammers is, unfortunately, a necessity these days when selling high valued goods. Have them provide a banking reference (bank, name, address). They will have to have this to complete the transaction; if they balk they're likely scammers. The other option is to have them show up at your location with cash - scammers will NEVER do that. Bottom line: only accept a wire transfer of their funds into your account (NO cashier's checks unless you KNOW the buyer). This cuts thru all of the bull****. That is what I did on the last gliders I bought and sold.
> >>>
> >>> Tom
> >> --
> >> Dan, 5J
> > A personal check, or a cashier's check, is ok if you have the luxury of time. It will take up to a week for the check to clear (US bank only). I wouldn't even think of it for a foreign bank. This helps make the sale take place, which is what you are trying to make happen in the first place.
> >
> > Delivery should be explicitly stated in the original ad. For instance, you can state you will deliver the glider within an xx mile radius at no cost. Or you can add a mileage cost. It's all up to you. This usually reflects how hard or soft the market is for used gliders, and the economy overall. Basically, tho, once payment is made the new owner takes possession and it is up to him/her to move it (and don't forget about insurance!)
> >
> > Tom
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

My comment wasn't directed towards you (your sale was completed w/o any problems) - it was directed towards those that hadn't been thru it before. Note: you really don't know when the check clears. You bank will credit the amount to your account before it clears based on several factors. If you are running balances in excess of the check amount and have been doing business with the bank for a number of years they will allow to use that amount before they get the money from the payer's bank. But try doing that for a very large amount and you can expect your bank to put a hold on that check until it clears the payer's bank. The one week figure is just an estimate. The advantage of a wire transfer means you know with certainty that the transaction is complete.

Again, glider sellers beware: cashier's checks can, and are, forged.

Another issue on buying any aircraft is its title. There have been cases of people selling planes that they did not have clear title to (their banks did). Get title insurance if you are not absolutely certain of the seller, and then buy it anyway even if you are.
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/aviation-international-news/2006-10-20/aircraft-title-insurance-do-you-need-it-or-not
https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/buying-an-aircraft/aircraft-title-and-escrow-services
https://www.aictitle.com/
http://www.federalaviationtitle.com/pages/titleinsurance.html

Tom

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 12/18/2017 11:55 AM:
> The common problem from a buyer's POV is that if you are going to travel a long way to get a glider, you are in a very weak position to dicker when you get there. It's a whole lot smarter to have somebody you trust look it over for you, even if you pay them something ... than to drive a 1000 miles and then face going home empty handed, or upset that you wouldn't have paid that much "had you known."

Twice, I dealt with that problem by meeting the seller half-way. Then, each of you
are in the same position; also, it's in his interest to ensure you know what the
glider is like, and to make sure the trailer is road-worthy. These were for
gliders costing less than $13,000 each.

If you are buying an expensive glider (say, $40,000 or more), fly there and look
at it. A few hundred dollars for an airline ticket is only a 1% or so of your
acquisition cost, and could save you many thousands.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[Jonathon May[_2_]]

At 13:47 06 December 2017, AS wrote:
>On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 7:08:00 AM UTC-5,
wrote:
>> On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 6:26:52 AM UTC-5, Casey
wrote:
>> > Has anyone every sold a glider without the buyer looking at
it?
>> >=20
>> > I have my glider listed for sell and the guy is buying without
looking
>=
>at it and sending a cashiers check and arranging shipping....sound
>familiar=
>..
>> >=20
>> > Casey
>>=20
>> I have sold 2 gliders w/o buyer seeing it but your question (I
assume
>ton=
>gue in cheek) raises red flags. My local gliderport had 3 gliders
listed
>f=
>or sale and all 3 of us got the same offer. The language in the
offer
>ofte=
>n intimates the buyer has no knowledge of soaring. One buyer
gave a
>mailing=
> address which I Googled. It was a vacant house! Check the SSA
website to
>=
>determine if the buyer is a member. If the offer still doesn't pass
the
>sm=
>ell test insist the buyer send his rep to inspect the ship.
>
>>>> One buyer gave a mailing address which I Googled. It was a
vacant
>hous=
>e! <<<
>That poor Nigerian Prince probably had to sell all his earthly
belongings
>a=
>nd move out of his house just to afford your glider! C'mon - have
a heart
>a=
>nd accept his offer - it's close to Christmas! ;-)
>But seriously - the same scam is being pulled worldwide on
anything from
>pl=
>anes, cars and boats. The German soaring forum is full of
warnings about
>it=
>.. A serious buyer will not object to presenting a cashier's check or
a
>bank=
> transfer. =20
>
>Uli
>'AS'
>
Just had a gent offer full £154,000.00 for my duo and wants me to
send my detail so he can send a cheque.
Well it is Christmas !

[Dan Marotta]

Accept the offer if it is what you're asking.Â* Tell him you will hold
the glider for him to collect AFTER the check has definitely cleared.Â*
Better yet, have him wire the funds.

On 12/26/2017 9:57 AM, Jonathon May wrote:
> At 13:47 06 December 2017, AS wrote:
>> On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 7:08:00 AM UTC-5,
> wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 6:26:52 AM UTC-5, Casey
> wrote:
>>>> Has anyone every sold a glider without the buyer looking at
> it?
>>>> =20
>>>> I have my glider listed for sell and the guy is buying without
> looking
>> =
>> at it and sending a cashiers check and arranging shipping....sound
>> familiar=
>> ..
>>>> =20
>>>> Casey
>>> =20
>>> I have sold 2 gliders w/o buyer seeing it but your question (I
> assume
>> ton=
>> gue in cheek) raises red flags. My local gliderport had 3 gliders
> listed
>> f=
>> or sale and all 3 of us got the same offer. The language in the
> offer
>> ofte=
>> n intimates the buyer has no knowledge of soaring. One buyer
> gave a
>> mailing=
>> address which I Googled. It was a vacant house! Check the SSA
> website to
>> =
>> determine if the buyer is a member. If the offer still doesn't pass
> the
>> sm=
>> ell test insist the buyer send his rep to inspect the ship.
>>
>>>>> One buyer gave a mailing address which I Googled. It was a
> vacant
>> hous=
>> e! <<<
>> That poor Nigerian Prince probably had to sell all his earthly
> belongings
>> a=
>> nd move out of his house just to afford your glider! C'mon - have
> a heart
>> a=
>> nd accept his offer - it's close to Christmas! ;-)
>> But seriously - the same scam is being pulled worldwide on
> anything from
>> pl=
>> anes, cars and boats. The German soaring forum is full of
> warnings about
>> it=
>> .. A serious buyer will not object to presenting a cashier's check or
> a
>> bank=
>> transfer. =20
>>
>> Uli
>> 'AS'
>>
> Just had a gent offer full £154,000.00 for my duo and wants me to
> send my detail so he can send a cheque.
> Well it is Christmas !
>
>

--
Dan, 5J

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[2G]

On Tuesday, December 26, 2017 at 9:00:07 AM UTC-8, Jonathon May wrote:
> At 13:47 06 December 2017, AS wrote:
> >On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 7:08:00 AM UTC-5,
> wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 6:26:52 AM UTC-5, Casey
> wrote:
> >> > Has anyone every sold a glider without the buyer looking at
> it?
> >> >=20
> >> > I have my glider listed for sell and the guy is buying without
> looking
> >=
> >at it and sending a cashiers check and arranging shipping....sound
> >familiar=
> >..
> >> >=20
> >> > Casey
> >>=20
> >> I have sold 2 gliders w/o buyer seeing it but your question (I
> assume
> >ton=
> >gue in cheek) raises red flags. My local gliderport had 3 gliders
> listed
> >f=
> >or sale and all 3 of us got the same offer. The language in the
> offer
> >ofte=
> >n intimates the buyer has no knowledge of soaring. One buyer
> gave a
> >mailing=
> > address which I Googled. It was a vacant house! Check the SSA
> website to
> >=
> >determine if the buyer is a member. If the offer still doesn't pass
> the
> >sm=
> >ell test insist the buyer send his rep to inspect the ship.
> >
> >>>> One buyer gave a mailing address which I Googled. It was a
> vacant
> >hous=
> >e! <<<
> >That poor Nigerian Prince probably had to sell all his earthly
> belongings
> >a=
> >nd move out of his house just to afford your glider! C'mon - have
> a heart
> >a=
> >nd accept his offer - it's close to Christmas! ;-)
> >But seriously - the same scam is being pulled worldwide on
> anything from
> >pl=
> >anes, cars and boats. The German soaring forum is full of
> warnings about
> >it=
> >.. A serious buyer will not object to presenting a cashier's check or
> a
> >bank=
> > transfer. =20
> >
> >Uli
> >'AS'
> >
> Just had a gent offer full £154,000.00 for my duo and wants me to
> send my detail so he can send a cheque.
> Well it is Christmas !

DO NOT accept a check! Have him wire the money; it is actually easier than sending checks. If he objects you KNOW he is a scammer.

Tom

[[email protected]]

I purchased my LAK 12 from a neighbouring country (Botswana) in 2003. It is the only one in Africa so I had never even seen a LAK 12 at that point (or any LAK for that matter). I paid a third of the money into a Botswana account to show my seriousness regarding the purchase (with the assurance I could get a full refund if I did not take the glider) and then met the seller at the border post (on the Botswana side). He showed me how to rig the glider in the border parking lot. I had the proof of payment for the money I had paid to show customs - and that became the import value. The importation through the border with the aircraft was challenging but managed it fairly ok. Took another 14 years, however, to finally get the aircraft officially onto the South African registry - including a period of about 7 years when the aircraft just stayed in the trailer because I could not get an Authority to Fly. I have a serious hate of petty bureaucracy since that.