Re: GPS Hand Held for Badges

[Papa3]

It boggles the mind how the beaurocratic mind works. I sent a long email to
one of the "powers that be" a while back (a name well known on this
Usegroup) who didn't even have the courtesy to respond. I suggested that
for all badge flights and for records below national or world level, a
commercial, off the shelf (aka COTS) solution be allowed. This would bring
the price of an acceptable GPS log down from nearly $1000 to something on
the order of a couple hundred bucks.

My argumaent basically goes like this. A COTS unit is certainly no less
secure than the existing alternative (ie. a camera and barograph). We have
documented evidence of world-caliber pilots trying to fudge barograph or
camera results from years past. Yet, we get up in arms that someone may try
to programmatically alter their flight log from a COTS unit. Hell, if we
simply adhered to the rules of the OO, the file would be taken over by the
OO immediately upon landing. If someone wants to go to the trouble of
building an application to fudge this data in-flight or during the initial
download just to prove they made their silver distance, I say "who really
cares."

I notice in the preliminary minutes from the 2004 IGC meeting that the
proposal to allows COTS units was again rejected. I'll be on a crusade to
find out exactly why...

"Wojciech Scigala" > wrote in message
...
> Dnia 5/23/04 1:17 AM, U¿ytkownik f.blair napisa³:
>
> > What is the least expensive hand held that can be used for certifying
badge
> > claims?
> Only FAI-certified loggers can be used for badge flights, and countries'
> regulations can't change that.
>
> You can still use a barograph and a camera for documenting flight
progress.
>
> --
> Wojtus'.net __|__
> FidoNet: 2:484/47 `--------o--------'

[Tim Newport-Peace]

X-no-archive: yes
In article . net>,
Papa3 > writes
>It boggles the mind how the beaurocratic mind works.
---Rant Snipped--------------


Who are you? I think that it is most unlikely that you will provoke any
positive reaction while you hide behind an anonymous address.

Anyway, this whole business of COTS units was discussed at the Plenary
Meeting of IGC in February this year, as you can read in the minutes of
that meeting on the FAI web site.

Of the 31 delegates, only One voted in favour of COTS, so the motion was
defeated.

That is democracy at work. I am sorry if you don't like the results of
the vote, but the COTS issue has had a recent airing and democracy says
NO.

It could always be raised again at a future Plenary Meeting, but that is
something you need to take up with your NAC.

Very best regards,

Tim Newport-Peace

[Janos Bauer]

Tim Newport-Peace wrote:

> Of the 31 delegates, only One voted in favour of COTS, so the motion was
> defeated.

It would be useful to know why... Maybe those who spent their free
time on this proposal, could improve it a bit and one day lot of glider
pilots could benefit from a positive decision.
As I see a GPS+barogpraph could be equal to photo+barograph, at least
for badges.

/Janos

[Tim Newport-Peace]

X-no-archive: yes
In article >, Janos Bauer
> writes
>Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
>
>> Of the 31 delegates, only One voted in favour of COTS, so the motion was
>> defeated.
>
> It would be useful to know why... Maybe those who spent their free
>time on this proposal, could improve it a bit and one day lot of glider
>pilots could benefit from a positive decision.

Reading the IGC Minutes,
http://www.fai.org/gliding/meetings/2004/igc_minutes2004.pdf
item 10.3.1, could provide some of the answers but not having been there
myself, I could not tell you.

> As I see a GPS+barogpraph could be equal to photo+barograph, at least
>for badges.

But I have read a suggestion that Photographic (and all other non-GPS
evidence) should be phased out, which would negate that argument.

Best regards,

Tim Newport-Peace

[Janos Bauer]

Tim Newport-Peace wrote:

> But I have read a suggestion that Photographic (and all other non-GPS
> evidence) should be phased out, which would negate that argument.

It's right and totally acceptable. But I think it won't be phased out
and COTS will not be approved...

/Janos

[Eric Greenwell]

Janos Bauer wrote:
> Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
>
>> Of the 31 delegates, only One voted in favour of COTS, so the motion was
>> defeated.
>
>
> It would be useful to know why... Maybe those who spent their free time
> on this proposal, could improve it a bit and one day lot of glider
> pilots could benefit from a positive decision.
> As I see a GPS+barogpraph could be equal to photo+barograph, at least
> for badges.

You should be able to contact your representative to the IGC and discuss
it with him. At the very least, he should be able to direct you to a
knowledgeable person that was there. A phone call often gets information
that doesn't make it into meeting minutes, or even an email exchange.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Janos Bauer]

I have to admit that I often exchange mails with one of the guys who
initiated the mentioned proposal. I helped him to find&contact our
national representative, so I know about their discussion. Our
representative simple doesn't like this idea, that's all, there was no
explanation...
Sorry to say, but I often feel that most of the persons who were
involved in this decision are not really aware of the technical
background. They are often just afraid of cheating but has no any idea
how does an IGC logger works and what would be the difference if it's
just a black box GPS. They just trust on those professional boxes
created for world records...
90% of the OOs doesn't even know what should be checked on a logger
(pilot name, glider identifier&type). It was more than 10 years when I
saw the last sealed camera or barograph! I even did my approved diamond
distance with an unsealed camera&barograph... So what can we lose with
this modification?
More than a year ago Mark Hawkins (soaringpilot designer) asked for
any cheating solutions for his palm based logger, but there was no any
suggestion I'm aware of. For me it's hard to imagine to create any
system that could do that for the reasonable price (is it really worth
to create such a device or cheaper to rent a discus2 and run a 500k on
an average day?).
Just imagine that you should create an IGC file representing the same
data what the barograph logged and in the same time this should meet
with your take-off and landing time, round all the turnpoints, have the
same wind, present it to the OO at landing.

/Janos


Eric Greenwell wrote:

> Janos Bauer wrote:
>
>> Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
>>
>>> Of the 31 delegates, only One voted in favour of COTS, so the motion was
>>> defeated.
>>
>>
>>
>> It would be useful to know why... Maybe those who spent their free
>> time on this proposal, could improve it a bit and one day lot of
>> glider pilots could benefit from a positive decision.
>> As I see a GPS+barogpraph could be equal to photo+barograph, at least
>> for badges.
>
>
> You should be able to contact your representative to the IGC and discuss
> it with him. At the very least, he should be able to direct you to a
> knowledgeable person that was there. A phone call often gets information
> that doesn't make it into meeting minutes, or even an email exchange.
>

[BTIZ]

I do not recall that there is any "handheld" GPS that can be used for badge
flights.. only approved data loggers can...

This is not to be confused with the 1-26Assoc approval of small handhelds
for their competitions... they are not doing badge flights and it is a small
group.

BT

"f.blair" > wrote in message
news:OYSrc.7849$af3.442133@attbi_s51...
> What is the least expensive hand held that can be used for certifying
badge
> claims?
>
> Need to download traces, create waypoints, etc.
>
> Thanks,
> Fred
>
>

[Papa3]

Sorry 'bout that - thought my legendary reputation as a top contest pilot
preceded me :-))

Name: Erik Mann. Flying experience: Some 1500 hours including racing,
record flying, and instructing. I also run a highly successful regional
competition here in the good ole US of A scored entirely on the basis of GPS
data, including non-approved loggers. All of which just proves that I have
a tremendous interest in this sport and nothing more. Beyond that, I'm a
senior executive in a major software engineering and consulting firm, with a
focus on technical strategy. One of my interests is process improvement ,
which is why this GPS approval "process" intrigues me so.

I think it's great that the process was followed, and it's a shame that what
I believe to be a rational proposal failed. So, I'll do what anyone in a
free society has a right to do - I'll agitate for change. It would be
helpful to find out who the members of the GFAC are, as I was not able to
find this easily on the FAI Web page. All I saw was a couple of group
mailing lists, but it would be nice to know the names/countries behind the
committe. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction?

As far as discussion is concerned, I did indeed attempt to "discuss" this
issue with one of the well known individuals from the GFAC or predecessor
thereto. Unfortunately, the only response I got was tantamount to "silly
bugger, you obviously wouldn't understand." At least on this side of the
pond, them's fightin' words.

P3

"Tim Newport-Peace" ]> wrote in message
...
> X-no-archive: yes
> In article . net>,
> Papa3 > writes
> >It boggles the mind how the beaurocratic mind works.
> ---Rant Snipped--------------
>
>
> Who are you? I think that it is most unlikely that you will provoke any
> positive reaction while you hide behind an anonymous address.
>
> Anyway, this whole business of COTS units was discussed at the Plenary
> Meeting of IGC in February this year, as you can read in the minutes of
> that meeting on the FAI web site.
>
> Of the 31 delegates, only One voted in favour of COTS, so the motion was
> defeated.
>
> That is democracy at work. I am sorry if you don't like the results of
> the vote, but the COTS issue has had a recent airing and democracy says
> NO.
>
> It could always be raised again at a future Plenary Meeting, but that is
> something you need to take up with your NAC.
>
> Very best regards,
>
> Tim Newport-Peace

[Marc Ramsey]

Papa3 wrote:
> I think it's great that the process was followed, and it's a shame that what
> I believe to be a rational proposal failed. So, I'll do what anyone in a
> free society has a right to do - I'll agitate for change. It would be
> helpful to find out who the members of the GFAC are, as I was not able to
> find this easily on the FAI Web page. All I saw was a couple of group
> mailing lists, but it would be nice to know the names/countries behind the
> committe. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction?

Well, I'm the GFAC member from the US, Ian Strachan is the GFAC Chairman
from the UK, Tim Newport-Peace is an adviser to GFAC, also from the UK,
there are other members who read this group and decloak on occasion...

> As far as discussion is concerned, I did indeed attempt to "discuss" this
> issue with one of the well known individuals from the GFAC or predecessor
> thereto. Unfortunately, the only response I got was tantamount to "silly
> bugger, you obviously wouldn't understand." At least on this side of the
> pond, them's fightin' words.

It seems like you've gotten a fairly serious discussion this time
around, would you prefer a fight? 8^)

Marc

[Martin Gregorie]

On Sun, 23 May 2004 18:14:55 GMT, "Papa3" >
wrote:

>It boggles the mind how the beaurocratic mind works. I sent a long email to
>one of the "powers that be" a while back (a name well known on this
>Usegroup) who didn't even have the courtesy to respond. I suggested that
>for all badge flights and for records below national or world level, a
>commercial, off the shelf (aka COTS) solution be allowed. This would bring
>the price of an acceptable GPS log down from nearly $1000 to something on
>the order of a couple hundred bucks.
>
I don't see where you get "nearly $1000" from. You can get an EW model
D logger for $US 535 plus P&P (and probably plus US customs duty/taxes
etc): that's a lot less than $1000.

The EW has a built in pressure transducer and is IGC certified with
most Garmin GPS units. It will record 24 hours worth of pressure
altitude + GPS position at a 4 second sample interval or 40 hours of
altitude only.

You want a GPS as well? Check out eBay: Garmin GPS II+ are going for
just under £100 ($US 180) incl. P&P right now on eBay UK and I bet
they're a lot less in the US.

A quick look at the Garmin site shows that the only really comparable
COTS unit is the GPSmap 76S ($430 rrp). It will do 10,000 track points
(11 hours at 4 secs/point), so you're looking at a 10 sec sample rate
to match the EW's 24 hour capability. The other cheap COTS units (GPS
12XL, GPS II+, GPS 76 store 1024 or 2048 track points, don't have a
pressure sensor but are $310 or less. However, their track logs wrap
round and overwrite when it fills: to get 24 hours while avoiding that
you'd be using a 40 or 20 second rate which isn't really good enough
for turn points - don't forget changing the sample rate is non-trivial
for these units. GPSmap 296? Forget it - only 700 track points per
route and anyway its rrp is $1700.

IMO there's no contest: the EW logger + GPS II+ combination wins hands
down over any of the portable Garmin units on a cost/performance
basis.


--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

[Marc Ramsey]

"Martin Gregorie" > wrote...
> A quick look at the Garmin site shows that the only really comparable
> COTS unit is the GPSmap 76S ($430 rrp). It will do 10,000 track points
> (11 hours at 4 secs/point), so you're looking at a 10 sec sample rate
> to match the EW's 24 hour capability. The other cheap COTS units (GPS
> 12XL, GPS II+, GPS 76 store 1024 or 2048 track points, don't have a
> pressure sensor but are $310 or less. However, their track logs wrap
> round and overwrite when it fills: to get 24 hours while avoiding that
> you'd be using a 40 or 20 second rate which isn't really good enough
> for turn points - don't forget changing the sample rate is non-trivial
> for these units. GPSmap 296? Forget it - only 700 track points per
> route and anyway its rrp is $1700.

The Garmin Geko 201 (around $120 in the US) and 301 (around $190) both have
10000 track point storage. The 301 has a pressure sensor and includes the
glide ratio and glide ratio to waypoint functions.

Marc

[Robert Danewid]

Tim Newport-Peace wrote:

> That is democracy at work. I am sorry if you don't like the results of
> the vote, but the COTS issue has had a recent airing and democracy says
> NO.
>
> It could always be raised again at a future Plenary Meeting, but that is
> something you need to take up with your NAC.


True, but in a true democracy you are always allowed to take up any
topic for discussion at any time. At least in my country that is my
legal right.

The "I" in IGC stands for International. Also true, the one who votes
for you at IGC meetings is your National delegate. As a delegate to EGU
and an alternate delegate to IGC for many years I certainly look for
international arguments and opinions as well as views from our members
and clubs. And as an IGC delegate I have seen IGC democracy by work. As
you have Tim, and I hope you agree when I say that it is not as simple
as just voting and that´s it.

When you get an almost 300 pages long agenda one month before the
meeting one can be sure that not all delegates are fully informed by
digital secutity codes etc etc. So you have to rely on "experts reports".

What I do not like is that when people (me included) start a new
discussion on an old topic because you have got more knowledge or input,
these experts always come back and say "you did not vote against it, so
it was true democracy - end of story".

It is interesting to note that the one who replies on this topic is
usually GFAC members or associates, never "your IGC delegate".

What counts is not democracy, what counts is influence! That is indeed
democracy in practice.

I am in favour of COTS, so keep shooting you anynomous Papa3! During
1995-97 i "fought" this "battle" to have the EW FR approved. In the end
common sense always win. But it can take some time.

Robert Danewid
Sweden

[tango4]

"Robert Danewid" > wrote in message
...

> In the end
> common sense always win. But it can take some time.
>

The problem with common sense these days is that it is extremely uncommon!

:-)

Ian

[Papa3]

Robert et. al.

I apologize if I appear anonymous, but that's not the intent. Papa 3 is my
competition number, and it's just a convenient way to go about being
recognized on a Soaring newsgroup.

With regard to the post, hell yes I'll keep on posting. Tim, I would
respectfully challenge you to define the processes used to address COTS
proposals within the IGC as democratic; I think the word you were looking
for is oligarchic. My Websters defines an oligarchy as "a system of
government in which political power is exercised by a small group of people,
usually self-selected;" sounds a lot more accurate in this case. I would
love to understand exactly how the GFAC was constituted and, more
importantly, how it operates. Furthermore, I would like understand if the
IGC delegates from various countries even understand what they have been
voting for. I suspect that our IGC representatives may be seeing only the
information which the GFAC would like them to see.

Private mails I have received from several foks in the know in Canada,
Australia, and Sweden sent directly to me make it pretty clear that there is
not nearly the unanimity against COTS proposals that Tim and others would
have us believe. In fact, it strikes me that all we need is a few of the
IGC delegates from some of the larger IGC countries to openly state their
support for accelerating the COTS process, and I think we will see some
rapid changes.

Let's hear from some of the IGC and GFAC members - how about stating your
positions clearly and concisely.

Regards,

Erik Mann
LS8-18 (P3)


"Robert Danewid" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
>
> > That is democracy at work. I am sorry if you don't like the results of
> > the vote, but the COTS issue has had a recent airing and democracy says
> > NO.
> >
> > It could always be raised again at a future Plenary Meeting, but that is
> > something you need to take up with your NAC.
>
>
> True, but in a true democracy you are always allowed to take up any
> topic for discussion at any time. At least in my country that is my
> legal right.
>
> The "I" in IGC stands for International. Also true, the one who votes
> for you at IGC meetings is your National delegate. As a delegate to EGU
> and an alternate delegate to IGC for many years I certainly look for
> international arguments and opinions as well as views from our members
> and clubs. And as an IGC delegate I have seen IGC democracy by work. As
> you have Tim, and I hope you agree when I say that it is not as simple
> as just voting and that´s it.
>
> When you get an almost 300 pages long agenda one month before the
> meeting one can be sure that not all delegates are fully informed by
> digital secutity codes etc etc. So you have to rely on "experts reports".
>
> What I do not like is that when people (me included) start a new
> discussion on an old topic because you have got more knowledge or input,
> these experts always come back and say "you did not vote against it, so
> it was true democracy - end of story".
>
> It is interesting to note that the one who replies on this topic is
> usually GFAC members or associates, never "your IGC delegate".
>
> What counts is not democracy, what counts is influence! That is indeed
> democracy in practice.
>
> I am in favour of COTS, so keep shooting you anynomous Papa3! During
> 1995-97 i "fought" this "battle" to have the EW FR approved. In the end
> common sense always win. But it can take some time.
>
> Robert Danewid
> Sweden
>

[Martin Gregorie]

On Wed, 26 May 2004 11:25:07 -0700, "Marc Ramsey"
> wrote:

>"Martin Gregorie" > wrote...
>> A quick look at the Garmin site shows that the only really comparable
>> COTS unit is the GPSmap 76S ($430 rrp). It will do 10,000 track points
>> (11 hours at 4 secs/point), so you're looking at a 10 sec sample rate
>> to match the EW's 24 hour capability. The other cheap COTS units (GPS
>> 12XL, GPS II+, GPS 76 store 1024 or 2048 track points, don't have a
>> pressure sensor but are $310 or less. However, their track logs wrap
>> round and overwrite when it fills: to get 24 hours while avoiding that
>> you'd be using a 40 or 20 second rate which isn't really good enough
>> for turn points - don't forget changing the sample rate is non-trivial
>> for these units. GPSmap 296? Forget it - only 700 track points per
>> route and anyway its rrp is $1700.
>
>The Garmin Geko 201 (around $120 in the US) and 301 (around $190) both have
>10000 track point storage. The 301 has a pressure sensor and includes the
>glide ratio and glide ratio to waypoint functions.
>
10,000 isn't really enough - I'd suggest that 20,000 was more like it
if you might need to make flights over 2-3 days without getting near a
download computer.

In any case, yes I'm aware of the Geko and the older eTrex, but
ignored them. I was assuming that Papa3 was talking about a GPS that
would also be useful for navigation and could be mounted on the panel.
I reckon the eTrex and Geko, while excellent hand-helds, have problems
for in-cockpit use compared with the GPS 12XL/II+/III+ series. The
eTrex series is, IMO, unsuitable for panel or canopy rail mount
because its buttons are on the edges on both sides while the Geko
screen is very small, the buttons are inconveniently placed above the
screen and its battery life is limited decidedly limited.



--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

[Robert Danewid]

Right, that is why it could take some time......

Robert

tango4 wrote:
> "Robert Danewid" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
>> In the end
>>common sense always win. But it can take some time.
>>
>
>
> The problem with common sense these days is that it is extremely uncommon!
>
> :-)
>
> Ian
>
>

[Robert Ehrlich]

tango4 wrote:
>
> "Robert Danewid" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > In the end
> > common sense always win. But it can take some time.
> >
>
> The problem with common sense these days is that it is extremely uncommon!
>
> :-)
>
> Ian

Remember what Descartes said about that (approximate quote and translation):

Common sense is the the thind which is best shared in the world,
as everybody seems to be satisfied with the amount he got and
never asks for more.

Most people only cite and know the first line.