Re: World Record 31,000 feet

[Paul Repacholi]

"Paul Lynch" > writes:

> It is not just your lungs. Your blood would be boiling without the
> pressure suit because of the low partial pressure.

The `Armstrong Line', where the BP of water is 98F.

--
Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd.,
+61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda.
West Australia 6076
comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot
Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.
EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.

[Ian Johnston]

On Sat, 22 May 2004 12:27:10 UTC, "Paul Lynch" >
wrote:

: It is not just your lungs. Your blood would be boiling without the pressure
: suit because of the low partial pressure.

To get water to boil at 38C (body temperature) you need a pressure of
0.066 bar. The International Standard Atmosphere gets to 0.,065 bar at
19km, which is 62,000 feet. Just as a matter of interest.

Ian


--

[Wayne Paul]

Ah yes, you do have to be at 62K for water to boil; however, the nitrogen in
your blood turns to gas at much lower altitude. (For most people it is
below 50K.) This phenomenon is what is commonly referred to as "your blood
boiling."

Experiencing the "bends" is not pleasant!

Wayne
http://www.soaridaho.com/



"Ian Johnston" > wrote in message
news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-dDfS8B2z9unE@localhost...
> On Sat, 22 May 2004 12:27:10 UTC, "Paul Lynch" >
> wrote:
>
> : It is not just your lungs. Your blood would be boiling without the
pressure
> : suit because of the low partial pressure.
>
> To get water to boil at 38C (body temperature) you need a pressure of
> 0.066 bar. The International Standard Atmosphere gets to 0.,065 bar at
> 19km, which is 62,000 feet. Just as a matter of interest.
>
> Ian
>
>
> --
>

[Stefan]

Wayne Paul wrote:

> Ah yes, you do have to be at 62K for water to boil; however, the nitrogen in
> your blood turns to gas at much lower altitude.

This depends on how fast you climb.

> Experiencing the "bends" is not pleasant!

Bends are not caused by bubbles in the blood, but by bubbles in the joints.

Stefan

[Bullwinkle]

On 5/23/04 4:52 PM, in article , "Wayne
Paul" > wrote:

> Ah yes, you do have to be at 62K for water to boil; however, the nitrogen in
> your blood turns to gas at much lower altitude. (For most people it is
> below 50K.) This phenomenon is what is commonly referred to as "your blood
> boiling."
>
> Experiencing the "bends" is not pleasant!
>
> Wayne
> http://www.soaridaho.com/
>
Sorry, I normally lurk, but I can't let this one go. A newsgroup is a good
place to trade expertise. This happens to be an area in which I have
expertise, so please let me share it.

Ebullism is the phenomenon which occurs at or above Armstrong's Line,
classically 63,000 feet, in which the total barometric pressure falls below
the partial pressure of water in the body, thus the equilibrium shifts, and
the body begins to give up water to the environment. "Blood boiling" is the
somewhat sensationalized term for this. People visualize exploding bodies,
and it doesn't actually happen that way. It is a very bad thing, and would
likely be fatal, although a short exposure (a few seconds) is likely
survivable.

Decompression sickness, or DCS, ("the bends") does occur in aviation, as
well as (obviously) the diving world. Classic physiology theory recognizes a
threshold of 18,000 feet below which it should not be able to occur. It
happens when the blood and tissues of the body become supersaturated with
nitrogen. At ground level our tissues equilibrate with the atmosphere, and
as we ascend, we give up nitrogen to the atmosphere until our tissue partial
pressures equal the partial pressure of nitrogen in the atmosphere. Thus,
climbers, ascending slowly, never experience DCS, because they stay more or
less equilibrated to their current altitude.

Aviators, on the other hand, go quickly to altitude. Way too quickly to
reduce the amount of nitrogen in their tissues. Thus, they are
supersaturated with nitrogen and their respiratory systems are trying like
crazy to get rid of the excess. Sometimes it forms bubbles in the
bloodstream, which are cleared out by the lungs. Sometimes bubbles form in
joints causing the joint pain which originally gave DCS its nickname, the
bends. Sometimes bubbles form in the brain or nervous system, causing Type
2, neurological DCS. This can present as stroke-like symptoms.

I've treated many, many people with DCS, most from altitude chamber training
in the military. I've also done research in which I gave volunteers (really)
DCS, in order to track the onset and severity of VGE (the bubbles), and the
onset and severity of DCS symptoms at various altitudes. (Then, of course, I
brought them back to ground level and treated their DCS appropriately.) I've
also had altitude DCS (just the joint pain type, fortunately).

You're right: it's not fun, and is a seriously under-recognized hazard in
soaring. Wave pilots should know about this, and I'm not sure they
appreciate the risk enough.

But please don't confuse ebullism with DCS. Completely different processes,
with different physiology involved.

Thanks for reading
A concerned aerospace medicine specialist/aerospace physiologist

[Wayne Paul]

"Stefan" > wrote in message
...
> Wayne Paul wrote:
>
> > Ah yes, you do have to be at 62K for water to boil; however, the
nitrogen in
> > your blood turns to gas at much lower altitude.
>
> This depends on how fast you climb.
>
> > Experiencing the "bends" is not pleasant!
>
> Bends are not caused by bubbles in the blood, but by bubbles in the
joints.
>
> Stefan
>

My post was based on personal experience in a A-3D.

My last military aviation physiology training was over 30 years ago. I know
my memory is fading; however, at the time the pain I experience was in the
A-3D was diagnosed as the bends resulting from high altitude flight.

The flight surgeon said my blood has started to boil. (This may have been a
figure of speech and not a technical definition.)

It appears that nothing has changed unless I have misinterpreted the
following:
http://wwwsam.brooks.af.mil/af/files/fsguide/HTML/Chapter_03.html

Respectfully,
Wayne
http://www.soaridaho.com/

[Arnie]

"Bullwinkle" > wrote in message
...
> On 5/23/04 4:52 PM, in article , "Wayne
> Paul" > wrote:
>
> > Ah yes, you do have to be at 62K for water to boil; however, the
nitrogen in
> > your blood turns to gas at much lower altitude. (For most people it is
> > below 50K.) This phenomenon is what is commonly referred to as "your
blood
> > boiling."
> >
> > Experiencing the "bends" is not pleasant!
> >
> > Wayne
> > http://www.soaridaho.com/
> >
> Sorry, I normally lurk, but I can't let this one go. A newsgroup is a good
> place to trade expertise. This happens to be an area in which I have
> expertise, so please let me share it.
>
> Ebullism is the phenomenon which occurs at or above Armstrong's Line,
> classically 63,000 feet, in which the total barometric pressure falls
below
> the partial pressure of water in the body, thus the equilibrium shifts,
and
> the body begins to give up water to the environment. "Blood boiling" is
the
> somewhat sensationalized term for this. People visualize exploding bodies,
> and it doesn't actually happen that way. It is a very bad thing, and would
> likely be fatal, although a short exposure (a few seconds) is likely
> survivable.
>
> Decompression sickness, or DCS, ("the bends") does occur in aviation, as
> well as (obviously) the diving world. Classic physiology theory recognizes
a
> threshold of 18,000 feet below which it should not be able to occur. It
> happens when the blood and tissues of the body become supersaturated with
> nitrogen. At ground level our tissues equilibrate with the atmosphere, and
> as we ascend, we give up nitrogen to the atmosphere until our tissue
partial
> pressures equal the partial pressure of nitrogen in the atmosphere. Thus,
> climbers, ascending slowly, never experience DCS, because they stay more
or
> less equilibrated to their current altitude.
>
> Aviators, on the other hand, go quickly to altitude. Way too quickly to
> reduce the amount of nitrogen in their tissues. Thus, they are
> supersaturated with nitrogen and their respiratory systems are trying like
> crazy to get rid of the excess. Sometimes it forms bubbles in the
> bloodstream, which are cleared out by the lungs. Sometimes bubbles form in
> joints causing the joint pain which originally gave DCS its nickname, the
> bends. Sometimes bubbles form in the brain or nervous system, causing Type
> 2, neurological DCS. This can present as stroke-like symptoms.
>
> I've treated many, many people with DCS, most from altitude chamber
training
> in the military. I've also done research in which I gave volunteers
(really)
> DCS, in order to track the onset and severity of VGE (the bubbles), and
the
> onset and severity of DCS symptoms at various altitudes. (Then, of course,
I
> brought them back to ground level and treated their DCS appropriately.)
I've
> also had altitude DCS (just the joint pain type, fortunately).
>
> You're right: it's not fun, and is a seriously under-recognized hazard in
> soaring. Wave pilots should know about this, and I'm not sure they
> appreciate the risk enough.
>
> But please don't confuse ebullism with DCS. Completely different
processes,
> with different physiology involved.
>
> Thanks for reading
> A concerned aerospace medicine specialist/aerospace physiologist
>

Very good posting Dr. Bullwinkle... Thanks for sharing this knowledge with
us.

If I can just persuade you to expand a little more on a couple of points :
1) It still isn't very clear how much of the DCS problem is related to "how
fast" we climb :.
I remember reading about the phenomenon and concluding (maybe not correctly)
that a slow climb isn't really likely to give us a problem.
So much so that I don't remember hearing much about Glider Pilots getting
"The bends" from wave soaring.
It would be a problem for the military pilots who may climb at many
thousands of feet per second.

2) out here in the American West, there are many general aviation pilots who
routinely perform long flights at +16000ft on oxygen (non-pressurized
singles and twins). I've heard their families and even some pilots complain
about certain types of pain that they thought was "the bends", but in many
cases it turns out to be just the gas we have accumulated in our intestines,
that expands to close to twice their volume at those altitudes. Best way to
avoid that kind of pain is, of course, a controlled diet avoiding
gas-generating food during those trips.

[Ian Johnston]

On Sun, 23 May 2004 23:48:15 UTC, Bullwinkle >
wrote:

: Ebullism is the phenomenon which occurs at or above Armstrong's Line,
: classically 63,000 feet, in which the total barometric pressure falls below
: the partial pressure of water in the body, thus the equilibrium shifts, and
: the body begins to give up water to the environment. "Blood boiling" is the
: somewhat sensationalized term for this. People visualize exploding bodies,
: and it doesn't actually happen that way. It is a very bad thing, and would
: likely be fatal, although a short exposure (a few seconds) is likely
: survivable.

I should have mentioned that even at a saturation temeperature of 38C,
the enthalpy of vapourisation is still 2411kJ/kg. Since the specific
heat capacity is around 4.2kJ/kgK, this means that to boil off 1kg of
fluid, the body temperature of an 80kg adult would have to drop by
2411/(4.2 * 80) = 7.2C. Hmm. not sure how important this is, but it's
early in the morning and I have the steam tables open beside me anyway
....

ian


--

[nafod40]

Bullwinkle wrote:
>
>
> Aviators, on the other hand, go quickly to altitude. Way too quickly to
> reduce the amount of nitrogen in their tissues. Thus, they are
> supersaturated with nitrogen and their respiratory systems are trying like
> crazy to get rid of the excess. Sometimes it forms bubbles in the
> bloodstream, which are cleared out by the lungs. Sometimes bubbles form in
> joints causing the joint pain which originally gave DCS its nickname, the
> bends. Sometimes bubbles form in the brain or nervous system, causing Type
> 2, neurological DCS. This can present as stroke-like symptoms.

Does breathing 100% O2 from chocks to chocks help lower the N2 in the
body? In other words, is there a secondary benefit to breathing 100% O2
other than that you don't pass out?

I used to teach Out of Control Flight (OCF) in the Navy, in which one
manuever required pulling the throttles to idle and coming to zero
airspeed vertically at 27+K feet. The cabin would decompress almost
every time (no bleed air) then rapidly recompress after recovery (at 13K
feet). Definitely a funky feeling.

> A concerned aerospace medicine specialist/aerospace physiologist

A concerned end user.

Mike

[Bullwinkle]

On 5/23/04 9:52 PM, in article
, "Arnie"
> wrote:

[SNIPPAGE]

> If I can just persuade you to expand a little more on a couple of points :
> 1) It still isn't very clear how much of the DCS problem is related to "how
> fast" we climb :.
> I remember reading about the phenomenon and concluding (maybe not correctly)
> that a slow climb isn't really likely to give us a problem.
> So much so that I don't remember hearing much about Glider Pilots getting
> "The bends" from wave soaring.
> It would be a problem for the military pilots who may climb at many
> thousands of feet per second.
>
> 2) out here in the American West, there are many general aviation pilots who
> routinely perform long flights at +16000ft on oxygen (non-pressurized
> singles and twins). I've heard their families and even some pilots complain
> about certain types of pain that they thought was "the bends", but in many
> cases it turns out to be just the gas we have accumulated in our intestines,
> that expands to close to twice their volume at those altitudes. Best way to
> avoid that kind of pain is, of course, a controlled diet avoiding
> gas-generating food during those trips.
>
>
Arnie,

1) Rates of ascent above, say, 100 fpm is way too fast to equilibrate. Thus
you are building a supersaturation (increased body burden of nitrogen). By
comparison, climbing is much slower, and you're exercising the whole time
(thus moving blood around and clearing tissue compartments more efficiently
than sedentary pilots). The recent record setting climb of Everest from base
camp to summit in 8 hours, works out to about 24 fpm.
Rate of ascent is not particularly predictive or protective, above a certain
threshold. Exercising and prebreathing are better than adjusting rates of
ascent.

2) Trapped gas problems, like bowel gas, or gas in the middle ears, or gas
under a new dental filling, are not DCS. They are certainly aeromedical
issues of which pilots and others should be aware, but not DCS. In military
altitude chambers, trainees are told not to try to hold their gas out of
politeness, rather to let 'er rip.


nafod40 (Mike) also asked:
Does breathing 100% O2 from chocks to chocks help lower the N2 in the
body? In other words, is there a secondary benefit to breathing 100% O2
other than that you don't pass out?

Answer: In the studies I did, my test subjects pre-breathed 100% oxygen at
ground level for a full hour before going to altitude. They kept breathing
100% oxygen the whole time they were there (at 25, 30 or 40 thousand feet)
and they STILL got DCS.

Even my inside observers, who prebreathed for two full hours before ascent,
occasionally got DCS. They got it at a lower rate, though. My most severe
cases of DCS came from this group, though (a case of chokes: resolved
quickly in a hyperbaric chamber).

Short answer: prebreathing is good, but not perfect.

Thanks again.

[BllFs6]

>Answer: In the studies I did, my test subjects pre-breathed 100% oxygen at
>ground level for a full hour before going to altitude. They kept breathing
>100% oxygen the whole time they were there (at 25, 30 or 40 thousand feet)
>and they STILL got DCS.

Interesting...what were your "victims" :) equivalent ascent rates?

As an aside...there is a cave diving group....the WKPP (also known a GUE and
DIR) ...they do extreme duration/depth/penetration cave dives...and get "away
with it" on a continual basis (ie its not a one time stunt where they got
lucky).....we are talking a constant depth of 300 feet for 6 to 8 hours or
more.....and yet they still manage to start such dives in the morning and be
back on the surface totally decompressed by the end of daylight....and doppler
studies even show few/low bubbles...that group has worked out some interesting
deco theory that seems to really work well....so much so the Navy has even been
working with them to learn a few things...if your interesting in it I can
direct you to the right discussion groups....

take care

Blll

[Cliff Hilty]

Now this is a great subject with lots of good info.
How about some more!

So, Are they any hard data on the ascent rates that
would be acceptable? Or the altitudes that they apply?
In other words If I were climbing in 1500fpm lift thru
18K to 24K am I likely to develop DCS? Are there any
warning signs before damage would occur? I used these
figures because I have been in them and have a hopt
to be in them again:)






>Arnie,
>
>1) Rates of ascent above, say, 100 fpm is way too fast
>to equilibrate. Thus
>you are building a supersaturation (increased body
>burden of nitrogen). By
>comparison, climbing is much slower, and you're exercising
>the whole time
>(thus moving blood around and clearing tissue compartments
>more efficiently
>than sedentary pilots). The recent record setting climb
>of Everest from base
>camp to summit in 8 hours, works out to about 24 fpm.
>Rate of ascent is not particularly predictive or protective,
>above a certain
>threshold. Exercising and prebreathing are better than
>adjusting rates of
>ascent.
>
>2) Trapped gas problems, like bowel gas, or gas in
>the middle ears, or gas
>under a new dental filling, are not DCS. They are certainly
>aeromedical
>issues of which pilots and others should be aware,
>but not DCS. In military
>altitude chambers, trainees are told not to try to
>hold their gas out of
>politeness, rather to let 'er rip.
>
>
>nafod40 (Mike) also asked:
>Does breathing 100% O2 from chocks to chocks help lower
>the N2 in the
>body? In other words, is there a secondary benefit
>to breathing 100% O2
>other than that you don't pass out?
>
>Answer: In the studies I did, my test subjects pre-breathed
>100% oxygen at
>ground level for a full hour before going to altitude.
>They kept breathing
>100% oxygen the whole time they were there (at 25,
>30 or 40 thousand feet)
>and they STILL got DCS.
>
>Even my inside observers, who prebreathed for two full
>hours before ascent,
>occasionally got DCS. They got it at a lower rate,
>though. My most severe
>cases of DCS came from this group, though (a case of
>chokes: resolved
>quickly in a hyperbaric chamber).
>
>Short answer: prebreathing is good, but not perfect.
>
>Thanks again.
>
>

[Paul Repacholi]

nafod40 > writes:

> Does breathing 100% O2 from chocks to chocks help lower the N2 in
> the body? In other words, is there a secondary benefit to breathing
> 100% O2 other than that you don't pass out?

Depends on the climb rate. The U2 presure suit has a fixed face plate
because the AC goes into a high rate climb as soon as it takes off and
the pilot needs to be on pure O2 for 30 odd minutes pre-flight.

Is there a good set of `decompresion tables' for flight?

--
Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd.,
+61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda.
West Australia 6076
comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot
Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.
EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.

[[email protected]]

http://www.zared.com/Health/Medicine/Medical_Specialties/Aerospace_Medicine/

[tango4]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> http://www.zared.com/Health/Medicine/Medical_Specialties/Aerospace_Medicine/
>

Gesundheid!

[Bob Kibby]

I do not understand the post references. The web link does not offer much
help either. Thanks to anyone that can help.

Bob Kibby "2BJK"
> wrote in message
oups.com...
> http://www.zared.com/Health/Medicine/Medical_Specialties/Aerospace_Medicine/
>

[Bob K.]

Earlier, Bob Kibby wrote:

> I do not understand the post references.
> The web link does not offer much
> help either. Thanks to anyone that can help.

It's a new form of SPAM (new to me, at least). They send a 'bot out to
exhume old Usenet threads with new unrelated posts that tries to get
you to their Web page.

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.