ADS-B Update

[Darryl Ramm]

It must be time for some more ADS-B posts, either that or we can talk about PW5 :-)

With the ~$350 street price Trig TN72 GPS source now available in the USA I wanted to revisit my understanding of the situation with ADS-B Out in gliders. I wrote a forum post for local Northern California pilots but it probably helps lots of other folks in the USA. See https://www.williamssoaring.com/news/showthread.php/1085-ADS-B-Out-Info-think-about-ADS-B-out-installs-over-this-Winter

---

And specifically I want to correct some doubt/misinformation I've helped spread here before about the Trig TN72 GPS source when it was first announced.. The TN72 is either (depending on how it is configured in the paired transponder) a:

1. TABS/TSO-C199 GPS source (with SIL=1)

*or*

2. A "meets performance requirement of TSO-C145c" GPS source (language I prefer, although Trig may say it differently) (with SIL=3)

(OK the TN72 can also do plain NMEA (with SIL=0), but that's not intersting here).

A little more details and the implications of this is described in post linked to above.

It would be great for folks doing 1090ES Out installs to share their experiences. Here, or contact me directly,

I am happy to try to answer questions.

I'm also planning to give a few talks on ADS-B (and FLARM and Transponders) over the next few months, certainly on the West Coast, details later.

Darryl

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 4:48:05 AM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> It must be time for some more ADS-B posts, either that or we can talk about PW5 :-)
>
> With the ~$350 street price Trig TN72 GPS source now available in the USA I wanted to revisit my understanding of the situation with ADS-B Out in gliders. I wrote a forum post for local Northern California pilots but it probably helps lots of other folks in the USA. See https://www.williamssoaring..com/news/showthread.php/1085-ADS-B-Out-Info-think-about-ADS-B-out-installs-over-this-Winter
>
> ---
>
> And specifically I want to correct some doubt/misinformation I've helped spread here before about the Trig TN72 GPS source when it was first announced. The TN72 is either (depending on how it is configured in the paired transponder) a:
>
> 1. TABS/TSO-C199 GPS source (with SIL=1)
>
> *or*
>
> 2. A "meets performance requirement of TSO-C145c" GPS source (language I prefer, although Trig may say it differently) (with SIL=3)
>
> (OK the TN72 can also do plain NMEA (with SIL=0), but that's not intersting here).
>
> A little more details and the implications of this is described in post linked to above.
>
> It would be great for folks doing 1090ES Out installs to share their experiences. Here, or contact me directly,
>
> I am happy to try to answer questions.
>
> I'm also planning to give a few talks on ADS-B (and FLARM and Transponders) over the next few months, certainly on the West Coast, details later.
>
> Darryl

Will you be at the Reno Convention? Seems to be a good time and interested crowd...

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 4:43:54 AM UTC-8, Dan Daly wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 4:48:05 AM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > It must be time for some more ADS-B posts, either that or we can talk about PW5 :-)
> >
> > With the ~$350 street price Trig TN72 GPS source now available in the USA I wanted to revisit my understanding of the situation with ADS-B Out in gliders. I wrote a forum post for local Northern California pilots but it probably helps lots of other folks in the USA. See https://www.williamssoaring.com/news/showthread.php/1085-ADS-B-Out-Info-think-about-ADS-B-out-installs-over-this-Winter
> >
> > ---
> >
> > And specifically I want to correct some doubt/misinformation I've helped spread here before about the Trig TN72 GPS source when it was first announced. The TN72 is either (depending on how it is configured in the paired transponder) a:
> >
> > 1. TABS/TSO-C199 GPS source (with SIL=1)
> >
> > *or*
> >
> > 2. A "meets performance requirement of TSO-C145c" GPS source (language I prefer, although Trig may say it differently) (with SIL=3)
> >
> > (OK the TN72 can also do plain NMEA (with SIL=0), but that's not intersting here).
> >
> > A little more details and the implications of this is described in post linked to above.
> >
> > It would be great for folks doing 1090ES Out installs to share their experiences. Here, or contact me directly,
> >
> > I am happy to try to answer questions.
> >
> > I'm also planning to give a few talks on ADS-B (and FLARM and Transponders) over the next few months, certainly on the West Coast, details later.
> >
> > Darryl
>
> Will you be at the Reno Convention? Seems to be a good time and interested crowd...

I will have the TN72 and TA70 at the Reno SSA 2018 convention.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

http://www.craggyaero.com/trig.htm

[Darryl Ramm]

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 4:43:54 AM UTC-8, Dan Daly wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 4:48:05 AM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > It must be time for some more ADS-B posts, either that or we can talk about PW5 :-)
> >
> > With the ~$350 street price Trig TN72 GPS source now available in the USA I wanted to revisit my understanding of the situation with ADS-B Out in gliders. I wrote a forum post for local Northern California pilots but it probably helps lots of other folks in the USA. See https://www.williamssoaring.com/news/showthread.php/1085-ADS-B-Out-Info-think-about-ADS-B-out-installs-over-this-Winter
> >
> > ---
> >
> > And specifically I want to correct some doubt/misinformation I've helped spread here before about the Trig TN72 GPS source when it was first announced. The TN72 is either (depending on how it is configured in the paired transponder) a:
> >
> > 1. TABS/TSO-C199 GPS source (with SIL=1)
> >
> > *or*
> >
> > 2. A "meets performance requirement of TSO-C145c" GPS source (language I prefer, although Trig may say it differently) (with SIL=3)
> >
> > (OK the TN72 can also do plain NMEA (with SIL=0), but that's not intersting here).
> >
> > A little more details and the implications of this is described in post linked to above.
> >
> > It would be great for folks doing 1090ES Out installs to share their experiences. Here, or contact me directly,
> >
> > I am happy to try to answer questions.
> >
> > I'm also planning to give a few talks on ADS-B (and FLARM and Transponders) over the next few months, certainly on the West Coast, details later.
> >
> > Darryl
>
> Will you be at the Reno Convention? Seems to be a good time and interested crowd...

i will be at the SSA Reno Convention and that is one of the locations I'm looking at giving a talk, maybe with some other presenters, details later.

Also happy to meet offline there to talk about what folks are doing and and to try to answer questions. Part of all this is just as things have now got very real with the TN72 available I'm starting to hear old and new questions over again, some new "interesting" ideas how ADS-B works, or confusion about TABS vs. a 2020 complaint install, etc..

[jfitch]

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 1:48:05 AM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> It must be time for some more ADS-B posts, either that or we can talk about PW5 :-)
>
> With the ~$350 street price Trig TN72 GPS source now available in the USA I wanted to revisit my understanding of the situation with ADS-B Out in gliders. I wrote a forum post for local Northern California pilots but it probably helps lots of other folks in the USA. See https://www.williamssoaring..com/news/showthread.php/1085-ADS-B-Out-Info-think-about-ADS-B-out-installs-over-this-Winter
>
> ---
>
> And specifically I want to correct some doubt/misinformation I've helped spread here before about the Trig TN72 GPS source when it was first announced. The TN72 is either (depending on how it is configured in the paired transponder) a:
>
> 1. TABS/TSO-C199 GPS source (with SIL=1)
>
> *or*
>
> 2. A "meets performance requirement of TSO-C145c" GPS source (language I prefer, although Trig may say it differently) (with SIL=3)
>
> (OK the TN72 can also do plain NMEA (with SIL=0), but that's not intersting here).
>
> A little more details and the implications of this is described in post linked to above.
>
> It would be great for folks doing 1090ES Out installs to share their experiences. Here, or contact me directly,
>
> I am happy to try to answer questions.
>
> I'm also planning to give a few talks on ADS-B (and FLARM and Transponders) over the next few months, certainly on the West Coast, details later.
>
> Darryl

Regarding the Reno Class B airspace: It was my understanding that a glider can overfly it above 10,000 ft, and a transponder is only required below 10,000 (and ATC clearance below 8400). I can't see where the regulations have changed that for ADS-B?

It's too bad the FAA saw fit to screw certified gliders - limiting the compliance they sought.

Another detail: all the antennas I have seen thus far are suitable for bolting to the side of a DC-3. Do you know of any option that does not involve a loss of 5 points L/D? (I guess the huge one could be mounted indoors under a transparent area.)

[Darryl Ramm]

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 9:54:46 AM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 1:48:05 AM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > It must be time for some more ADS-B posts, either that or we can talk about PW5 :-)
> >
> > With the ~$350 street price Trig TN72 GPS source now available in the USA I wanted to revisit my understanding of the situation with ADS-B Out in gliders. I wrote a forum post for local Northern California pilots but it probably helps lots of other folks in the USA. See https://www.williamssoaring.com/news/showthread.php/1085-ADS-B-Out-Info-think-about-ADS-B-out-installs-over-this-Winter
> >
> > ---
> >
> > And specifically I want to correct some doubt/misinformation I've helped spread here before about the Trig TN72 GPS source when it was first announced. The TN72 is either (depending on how it is configured in the paired transponder) a:
> >
> > 1. TABS/TSO-C199 GPS source (with SIL=1)
> >
> > *or*
> >
> > 2. A "meets performance requirement of TSO-C145c" GPS source (language I prefer, although Trig may say it differently) (with SIL=3)
> >
> > (OK the TN72 can also do plain NMEA (with SIL=0), but that's not intersting here).
> >
> > A little more details and the implications of this is described in post linked to above.
> >
> > It would be great for folks doing 1090ES Out installs to share their experiences. Here, or contact me directly,
> >
> > I am happy to try to answer questions.
> >
> > I'm also planning to give a few talks on ADS-B (and FLARM and Transponders) over the next few months, certainly on the West Coast, details later.
> >
> > Darryl
>
> Regarding the Reno Class B airspace: It was my understanding that a glider can overfly it above 10,000 ft, and a transponder is only required below 10,000 (and ATC clearance below 8400). I can't see where the regulations have changed that for ADS-B?
>
> It's too bad the FAA saw fit to screw certified gliders - limiting the compliance they sought.
>
> Another detail: all the antennas I have seen thus far are suitable for bolting to the side of a DC-3. Do you know of any option that does not involve a loss of 5 points L/D? (I guess the huge one could be mounted indoors under a transparent area.)

I am reminded of my own advice to never argue with Jon Fitch.

Yes you are correct, I got myself backwards thinking of SFO/SJC etc. within the SFO Mode C Veil which locks gliders from being anywhere above that airspace (and veil area) without a transponder (and after January 1 2020, a fully complaint ADS-B Out system). With bare Mode C airspace you get excluded up to 10,000'. I updated my post to clarify that.

The GPS antenna required for a full 2020 compliant install in a certified glider with a TN70 GPS is probably the TA70. We'll see as more of those installs get done. Trying to mount one on the glareshield may be an option. Other folks are looking at mounting that or similar antenna under their RF transparent turtle deck area. Something to discuss with your A&P IA. If you just want to add a TN72 for a TABS ADS-B Out install a certified glider I'd argue/hope it is just a minor modification, not requiring field approval. Discuss with you A&P IA.

[Darryl Ramm]

....and more than that, I have the Mode C veil stuff wrong as well, thanks for David Anisman for reminding me of past FAA interpretation letters, clearly I made a mistake trying offer a quick hit at airspace stuff while talking about ADS-B. I've updated that post again :-(

I'll write up a separate post trying to get all the airspace stuff properly explained. It deserves some careful writing all in in one place. And I may get a letter off to the FAA to reconfirm again for ADS-B. But the big thing is previous FAA legal interpretation support you can be above any airspace (including within a Mode C veil) at 10,000' in a glider without a transponder and that interpretation should carry over to ADS-B Out after 2020. You can't be below 10,000' and above Class C airspace, that is one that catches some into needing full 2020 ADS-B Out requirements, another is obviously the big dogs who want to fly in Class A airspace after 2020.

No of course I'd hope pilots flying anywhere in or near a Mode C veil would voluntarily equip with transponders and increasingly with ADS-B out. The nice thing is TABS allows you to do that voluntarily at lower cost that full 2020 ADS-B compliance, including using a Trig TT21 transponder (without upgrading it to a TT22) and a TN72 $350 GPS.

My headache is back.

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 12:54:46 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 1:48:05 AM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > It must be time for some more ADS-B posts, either that or we can talk about PW5 :-)
> >
> > With the ~$350 street price Trig TN72 GPS source now available in the USA I wanted to revisit my understanding of the situation with ADS-B Out in gliders. I wrote a forum post for local Northern California pilots but it probably helps lots of other folks in the USA. See https://www.williamssoaring.com/news/showthread.php/1085-ADS-B-Out-Info-think-about-ADS-B-out-installs-over-this-Winter
> >
> > ---
> >
> > And specifically I want to correct some doubt/misinformation I've helped spread here before about the Trig TN72 GPS source when it was first announced. The TN72 is either (depending on how it is configured in the paired transponder) a:
> >
> > 1. TABS/TSO-C199 GPS source (with SIL=1)
> >
> > *or*
> >
> > 2. A "meets performance requirement of TSO-C145c" GPS source (language I prefer, although Trig may say it differently) (with SIL=3)
> >
> > (OK the TN72 can also do plain NMEA (with SIL=0), but that's not intersting here).
> >
> > A little more details and the implications of this is described in post linked to above.
> >
> > It would be great for folks doing 1090ES Out installs to share their experiences. Here, or contact me directly,
> >
> > I am happy to try to answer questions.
> >
> > I'm also planning to give a few talks on ADS-B (and FLARM and Transponders) over the next few months, certainly on the West Coast, details later.
> >
> > Darryl
>
> Regarding the Reno Class B airspace: It was my understanding that a glider can overfly it above 10,000 ft, and a transponder is only required below 10,000 (and ATC clearance below 8400). I can't see where the regulations have changed that for ADS-B?
>
> It's too bad the FAA saw fit to screw certified gliders - limiting the compliance they sought.
>
> Another detail: all the antennas I have seen thus far are suitable for bolting to the side of a DC-3. Do you know of any option that does not involve a loss of 5 points L/D? (I guess the huge one could be mounted indoors under a transparent area.)

I think, the only issue is that Reno is not a class B airspace.

[jfitch]

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 2:55:00 PM UTC-8, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 12:54:46 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 1:48:05 AM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > It must be time for some more ADS-B posts, either that or we can talk about PW5 :-)
> > >
> > > With the ~$350 street price Trig TN72 GPS source now available in the USA I wanted to revisit my understanding of the situation with ADS-B Out in gliders. I wrote a forum post for local Northern California pilots but it probably helps lots of other folks in the USA. See https://www.williamssoaring.com/news/showthread.php/1085-ADS-B-Out-Info-think-about-ADS-B-out-installs-over-this-Winter
> > >
> > > ---
> > >
> > > And specifically I want to correct some doubt/misinformation I've helped spread here before about the Trig TN72 GPS source when it was first announced. The TN72 is either (depending on how it is configured in the paired transponder) a:
> > >
> > > 1. TABS/TSO-C199 GPS source (with SIL=1)
> > >
> > > *or*
> > >
> > > 2. A "meets performance requirement of TSO-C145c" GPS source (language I prefer, although Trig may say it differently) (with SIL=3)
> > >
> > > (OK the TN72 can also do plain NMEA (with SIL=0), but that's not intersting here).
> > >
> > > A little more details and the implications of this is described in post linked to above.
> > >
> > > It would be great for folks doing 1090ES Out installs to share their experiences. Here, or contact me directly,
> > >
> > > I am happy to try to answer questions.
> > >
> > > I'm also planning to give a few talks on ADS-B (and FLARM and Transponders) over the next few months, certainly on the West Coast, details later..
> > >
> > > Darryl
> >
> > Regarding the Reno Class B airspace: It was my understanding that a glider can overfly it above 10,000 ft, and a transponder is only required below 10,000 (and ATC clearance below 8400). I can't see where the regulations have changed that for ADS-B?
> >
> > It's too bad the FAA saw fit to screw certified gliders - limiting the compliance they sought.
> >
> > Another detail: all the antennas I have seen thus far are suitable for bolting to the side of a DC-3. Do you know of any option that does not involve a loss of 5 points L/D? (I guess the huge one could be mounted indoors under a transparent area.)
>
> I think, the only issue is that Reno is not a class B airspace.

B, C, what's in a letter? :). Now personally, I think the PW5 is a fine little glider other than it doesn't penetrate well and its easy to confuse the canopy release with the tow release.

[2G]

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 2:16:03 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> ...and more than that, I have the Mode C veil stuff wrong as well, thanks for David Anisman for reminding me of past FAA interpretation letters, clearly I made a mistake trying offer a quick hit at airspace stuff while talking about ADS-B. I've updated that post again :-(
>
> I'll write up a separate post trying to get all the airspace stuff properly explained. It deserves some careful writing all in in one place. And I may get a letter off to the FAA to reconfirm again for ADS-B. But the big thing is previous FAA legal interpretation support you can be above any airspace (including within a Mode C veil) at 10,000' in a glider without a transponder and that interpretation should carry over to ADS-B Out after 2020. You can't be below 10,000' and above Class C airspace, that is one that catches some into needing full 2020 ADS-B Out requirements, another is obviously the big dogs who want to fly in Class A airspace after 2020.
>
> No of course I'd hope pilots flying anywhere in or near a Mode C veil would voluntarily equip with transponders and increasingly with ADS-B out. The nice thing is TABS allows you to do that voluntarily at lower cost that full 2020 ADS-B compliance, including using a Trig TT21 transponder (without upgrading it to a TT22) and a TN72 $350 GPS.
>
> My headache is back.

So, now I can have an ADS-B compliant system using my TT21? When did that change?

Tom

[Darryl Ramm]

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 8:16:41 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 2:16:03 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > ...and more than that, I have the Mode C veil stuff wrong as well, thanks for David Anisman for reminding me of past FAA interpretation letters, clearly I made a mistake trying offer a quick hit at airspace stuff while talking about ADS-B. I've updated that post again :-(
> >
> > I'll write up a separate post trying to get all the airspace stuff properly explained. It deserves some careful writing all in in one place. And I may get a letter off to the FAA to reconfirm again for ADS-B. But the big thing is previous FAA legal interpretation support you can be above any airspace (including within a Mode C veil) at 10,000' in a glider without a transponder and that interpretation should carry over to ADS-B Out after 2020. You can't be below 10,000' and above Class C airspace, that is one that catches some into needing full 2020 ADS-B Out requirements, another is obviously the big dogs who want to fly in Class A airspace after 2020.
> >
> > No of course I'd hope pilots flying anywhere in or near a Mode C veil would voluntarily equip with transponders and increasingly with ADS-B out. The nice thing is TABS allows you to do that voluntarily at lower cost that full 2020 ADS-B compliance, including using a Trig TT21 transponder (without upgrading it to a TT22) and a TN72 $350 GPS.
> >
> > My headache is back.
>
> So, now I can have an ADS-B compliant system using my TT21? When did that change?
>
> Tom

I can't follow what you are replying to, a comment about voluntarily equipping with TABS... TABS is *not* a 2020 Complaint ADS-B Out solution.

Did you read the post I linked to at the top of this thread? I explain the options, not one of those mentioned involves a TT21 that gives you a 2020 Complaint ADS-B out solution.

[2G]

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 8:42:37 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 8:16:41 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 2:16:03 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > ...and more than that, I have the Mode C veil stuff wrong as well, thanks for David Anisman for reminding me of past FAA interpretation letters, clearly I made a mistake trying offer a quick hit at airspace stuff while talking about ADS-B. I've updated that post again :-(
> > >
> > > I'll write up a separate post trying to get all the airspace stuff properly explained. It deserves some careful writing all in in one place. And I may get a letter off to the FAA to reconfirm again for ADS-B. But the big thing is previous FAA legal interpretation support you can be above any airspace (including within a Mode C veil) at 10,000' in a glider without a transponder and that interpretation should carry over to ADS-B Out after 2020. You can't be below 10,000' and above Class C airspace, that is one that catches some into needing full 2020 ADS-B Out requirements, another is obviously the big dogs who want to fly in Class A airspace after 2020.
> > >
> > > No of course I'd hope pilots flying anywhere in or near a Mode C veil would voluntarily equip with transponders and increasingly with ADS-B out. The nice thing is TABS allows you to do that voluntarily at lower cost that full 2020 ADS-B compliance, including using a Trig TT21 transponder (without upgrading it to a TT22) and a TN72 $350 GPS.
> > >
> > > My headache is back.
> >
> > So, now I can have an ADS-B compliant system using my TT21? When did that change?
> >
> > Tom
>
> I can't follow what you are replying to, a comment about voluntarily equipping with TABS... TABS is *not* a 2020 Complaint ADS-B Out solution.
>
> Did you read the post I linked to at the top of this thread? I explain the options, not one of those mentioned involves a TT21 that gives you a 2020 Complaint ADS-B out solution.

I was replying to your last comment:

"No of course I'd hope pilots flying anywhere in or near a Mode C veil would voluntarily equip with transponders and increasingly with ADS-B out. The nice thing is TABS allows you to do that voluntarily at lower cost that full 2020 ADS-B compliance, including using a Trig TT21 transponder (without upgrading it to a TT22) and a TN72 $350 GPS."

You have previously posted that they TT21 would not satisfy the ADS-B out mandate.

Yes, I read all of your posts.

Tom

[Darryl Ramm]

On Wednesday, December 13, 2017 at 3:47:13 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 8:42:37 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 8:16:41 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 2:16:03 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > > ...and more than that, I have the Mode C veil stuff wrong as well, thanks for David Anisman for reminding me of past FAA interpretation letters, clearly I made a mistake trying offer a quick hit at airspace stuff while talking about ADS-B. I've updated that post again :-(
> > > >
> > > > I'll write up a separate post trying to get all the airspace stuff properly explained. It deserves some careful writing all in in one place. And I may get a letter off to the FAA to reconfirm again for ADS-B. But the big thing is previous FAA legal interpretation support you can be above any airspace (including within a Mode C veil) at 10,000' in a glider without a transponder and that interpretation should carry over to ADS-B Out after 2020. You can't be below 10,000' and above Class C airspace, that is one that catches some into needing full 2020 ADS-B Out requirements, another is obviously the big dogs who want to fly in Class A airspace after 2020.
> > > >
> > > > No of course I'd hope pilots flying anywhere in or near a Mode C veil would voluntarily equip with transponders and increasingly with ADS-B out. The nice thing is TABS allows you to do that voluntarily at lower cost that full 2020 ADS-B compliance, including using a Trig TT21 transponder (without upgrading it to a TT22) and a TN72 $350 GPS.
> > > >
> > > > My headache is back.
> > >
> > > So, now I can have an ADS-B compliant system using my TT21? When did that change?
> > >
> > > Tom
> >
> > I can't follow what you are replying to, a comment about voluntarily equipping with TABS... TABS is *not* a 2020 Complaint ADS-B Out solution.
> >
> > Did you read the post I linked to at the top of this thread? I explain the options, not one of those mentioned involves a TT21 that gives you a 2020 Complaint ADS-B out solution.
>
> I was replying to your last comment:
>
> "No of course I'd hope pilots flying anywhere in or near a Mode C veil would voluntarily equip with transponders and increasingly with ADS-B out. The nice thing is TABS allows you to do that voluntarily at lower cost that full 2020 ADS-B compliance, including using a Trig TT21 transponder (without upgrading it to a TT22) and a TN72 $350 GPS."
>
> You have previously posted that they TT21 would not satisfy the ADS-B out mandate.
>
> Yes, I read all of your posts.
>
> Tom

Tom

The TT21 will not meet the ADS-B out mandate requirements.

The TT21 *can* be used to do ADS-B Out TABS.

They are not conflicting statements.

How we arrived here is painful, at one time I thought it was likely the transponder and ADS-B Out exemptions would be removed. And hoping that _if_ that was going to happen that there would be regulations to allow use of TABS devices for gliders and others to use as a alternate means of complying, or partially complying with ADS-B Out regulations. With the exemption remaining in place TABS regulations really don't become important (OK I'd like if glider could use say use TABS to comply with some remaining ADS-B Out restrictions, say to fly above Class C airspace up to 10,000'). So TABS, besides the TABS device TSO definitions is really all unregulated stuff, you just voluntarily install it, but doing so does not grant you any 2020 ADS-B Out (akk 14 CFR 91.226) compliant privileges.

Drop me a private email if you want to discuss something deeper or specific..

Popping up to a general comment:

With the TN72 GPS we should be covered for folk that worry about TSO or not install issues in certified gliders. The TN72 *is* TSO'ed, but to TSO-C199 (TABS) not say TSO-C145c (for 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out... even if it does meets the performance level of TSO-C145c and can be used to do that in experimental aircraft). For 2020 Complaint ADS-B Out the need for an actual TSO GPS source in any certified aircraft seems well established, regardless of other arguments about that... but I have some faint hope that folks there might establish STCs that get around that (not for gliders but in general for GA).

Jumping ahead to preventing possible issues: one thing people might run into is confusion when discussion with A&P IA folks or FSDO staff... who may assume that any discussion about ADS-B is to meet 14 CFR 91.225 and on the FAA folks will naturally want to follow standard policy there, specifically https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/1029526 My interpretation is simply that does *not* apply to TABS installs, since the install is not being done to comply with 14 CFR 91.226 and 92.227. As always discuss stuff with you A&P IA and let them worry about any questions to FSDO staff if needed.

Now the TN72 is here, $350 + antenna + install costs to add in TABS ADS-B Out to any glider with a TT21 or TT22 already installed seems a great deal, and something folks want to think about over this winter... which was what started my post linked to up top.

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Wednesday, December 13, 2017 at 7:56:41 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 13, 2017 at 3:47:13 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 8:42:37 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 8:16:41 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 2:16:03 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > > > ...and more than that, I have the Mode C veil stuff wrong as well, thanks for David Anisman for reminding me of past FAA interpretation letters, clearly I made a mistake trying offer a quick hit at airspace stuff while talking about ADS-B. I've updated that post again :-(
> > > > >
> > > > > I'll write up a separate post trying to get all the airspace stuff properly explained. It deserves some careful writing all in in one place. And I may get a letter off to the FAA to reconfirm again for ADS-B. But the big thing is previous FAA legal interpretation support you can be above any airspace (including within a Mode C veil) at 10,000' in a glider without a transponder and that interpretation should carry over to ADS-B Out after 2020. You can't be below 10,000' and above Class C airspace, that is one that catches some into needing full 2020 ADS-B Out requirements, another is obviously the big dogs who want to fly in Class A airspace after 2020.
> > > > >
> > > > > No of course I'd hope pilots flying anywhere in or near a Mode C veil would voluntarily equip with transponders and increasingly with ADS-B out. The nice thing is TABS allows you to do that voluntarily at lower cost that full 2020 ADS-B compliance, including using a Trig TT21 transponder (without upgrading it to a TT22) and a TN72 $350 GPS.
> > > > >
> > > > > My headache is back.
> > > >
> > > > So, now I can have an ADS-B compliant system using my TT21? When did that change?
> > > >
> > > > Tom
> > >
> > > I can't follow what you are replying to, a comment about voluntarily equipping with TABS... TABS is *not* a 2020 Complaint ADS-B Out solution.
> > >
> > > Did you read the post I linked to at the top of this thread? I explain the options, not one of those mentioned involves a TT21 that gives you a 2020 Complaint ADS-B out solution.
> >
> > I was replying to your last comment:
> >
> > "No of course I'd hope pilots flying anywhere in or near a Mode C veil would voluntarily equip with transponders and increasingly with ADS-B out. The nice thing is TABS allows you to do that voluntarily at lower cost that full 2020 ADS-B compliance, including using a Trig TT21 transponder (without upgrading it to a TT22) and a TN72 $350 GPS."
> >
> > You have previously posted that they TT21 would not satisfy the ADS-B out mandate.
> >
> > Yes, I read all of your posts.
> >
> > Tom
>
> Tom
>
> The TT21 will not meet the ADS-B out mandate requirements.
>
> The TT21 *can* be used to do ADS-B Out TABS.
>
> They are not conflicting statements.
>
> How we arrived here is painful, at one time I thought it was likely the transponder and ADS-B Out exemptions would be removed. And hoping that _if_ that was going to happen that there would be regulations to allow use of TABS devices for gliders and others to use as a alternate means of complying, or partially complying with ADS-B Out regulations. With the exemption remaining in place TABS regulations really don't become important (OK I'd like if glider could use say use TABS to comply with some remaining ADS-B Out restrictions, say to fly above Class C airspace up to 10,000'). So TABS, besides the TABS device TSO definitions is really all unregulated stuff, you just voluntarily install it, but doing so does not grant you any 2020 ADS-B Out (akk 14 CFR 91.226) compliant privileges.
>
> Drop me a private email if you want to discuss something deeper or specific.
>
> Popping up to a general comment:
>
> With the TN72 GPS we should be covered for folk that worry about TSO or not install issues in certified gliders. The TN72 *is* TSO'ed, but to TSO-C199 (TABS) not say TSO-C145c (for 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out... even if it does meets the performance level of TSO-C145c and can be used to do that in experimental aircraft). For 2020 Complaint ADS-B Out the need for an actual TSO GPS source in any certified aircraft seems well established, regardless of other arguments about that... but I have some faint hope that folks there might establish STCs that get around that (not for gliders but in general for GA).
>
> Jumping ahead to preventing possible issues: one thing people might run into is confusion when discussion with A&P IA folks or FSDO staff... who may assume that any discussion about ADS-B is to meet 14 CFR 91.225 and on the FAA folks will naturally want to follow standard policy there, specifically https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/1029526 My interpretation is simply that does *not* apply to TABS installs, since the install is not being done to comply with 14 CFR 91.226 and 92.227. As always discuss stuff with you A&P IA and let them worry about any questions to FSDO staff if needed.
>
> Now the TN72 is here, $350 + antenna + install costs to add in TABS ADS-B Out to any glider with a TT21 or TT22 already installed seems a great deal, and something folks want to think about over this winter... which was what started my post linked to up top.

Darryl, the one thing you are not talking about is power supply. Gliders with only battery power present considerable challenges to meet the performance requirement of the FAA regulations. I suggest everyone who wants to install ADS-B out in a glider considers seriously this aspect.

Andrzej

[[email protected]]

> Darryl, the one thing you are not talking about is power supply.

A K2 pack seems to be working for simple mode C. Is there a reason to expect things to be significantly worse for ADS-B. (Maybe due to higher power out, more GPS power, a higher interrogation rate, and/or longer output transmissions?)

[JS[_5_]]

On Wednesday, December 13, 2017 at 6:00:09 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > Darryl, the one thing you are not talking about is power supply.
>
> A K2 pack seems to be working for simple mode C. Is there a reason to expect things to be significantly worse for ADS-B. (Maybe due to higher power out, more GPS power, a higher interrogation rate, and/or longer output transmissions?)

My current panel does well with the 3x 10Ah LiFePO4 batteries on task. I doubt adding the TN72 will change things much. I'm more concerned about where to put another GPS antenna.
Believe the TN72's power supply for the antenna runs a higher voltage than typical GPS antennas will take, so you may find failures if using an off-the-shelf unit. Richard can probably confirm or deny this assumption.
Jim

[Darryl Ramm]

On Wednesday, December 13, 2017 at 5:43:20 PM UTC-8, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 13, 2017 at 7:56:41 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 13, 2017 at 3:47:13 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 8:42:37 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 8:16:41 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 2:16:03 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > > > > ...and more than that, I have the Mode C veil stuff wrong as well, thanks for David Anisman for reminding me of past FAA interpretation letters, clearly I made a mistake trying offer a quick hit at airspace stuff while talking about ADS-B. I've updated that post again :-(
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'll write up a separate post trying to get all the airspace stuff properly explained. It deserves some careful writing all in in one place. And I may get a letter off to the FAA to reconfirm again for ADS-B. But the big thing is previous FAA legal interpretation support you can be above any airspace (including within a Mode C veil) at 10,000' in a glider without a transponder and that interpretation should carry over to ADS-B Out after 2020. You can't be below 10,000' and above Class C airspace, that is one that catches some into needing full 2020 ADS-B Out requirements, another is obviously the big dogs who want to fly in Class A airspace after 2020.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No of course I'd hope pilots flying anywhere in or near a Mode C veil would voluntarily equip with transponders and increasingly with ADS-B out. The nice thing is TABS allows you to do that voluntarily at lower cost that full 2020 ADS-B compliance, including using a Trig TT21 transponder (without upgrading it to a TT22) and a TN72 $350 GPS.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My headache is back.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, now I can have an ADS-B compliant system using my TT21? When did that change?
> > > > >
> > > > > Tom
> > > >
> > > > I can't follow what you are replying to, a comment about voluntarily equipping with TABS... TABS is *not* a 2020 Complaint ADS-B Out solution.
> > > >
> > > > Did you read the post I linked to at the top of this thread? I explain the options, not one of those mentioned involves a TT21 that gives you a 2020 Complaint ADS-B out solution.
> > >
> > > I was replying to your last comment:
> > >
> > > "No of course I'd hope pilots flying anywhere in or near a Mode C veil would voluntarily equip with transponders and increasingly with ADS-B out.. The nice thing is TABS allows you to do that voluntarily at lower cost that full 2020 ADS-B compliance, including using a Trig TT21 transponder (without upgrading it to a TT22) and a TN72 $350 GPS."
> > >
> > > You have previously posted that they TT21 would not satisfy the ADS-B out mandate.
> > >
> > > Yes, I read all of your posts.
> > >
> > > Tom
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > The TT21 will not meet the ADS-B out mandate requirements.
> >
> > The TT21 *can* be used to do ADS-B Out TABS.
> >
> > They are not conflicting statements.
> >
> > How we arrived here is painful, at one time I thought it was likely the transponder and ADS-B Out exemptions would be removed. And hoping that _if_ that was going to happen that there would be regulations to allow use of TABS devices for gliders and others to use as a alternate means of complying, or partially complying with ADS-B Out regulations. With the exemption remaining in place TABS regulations really don't become important (OK I'd like if glider could use say use TABS to comply with some remaining ADS-B Out restrictions, say to fly above Class C airspace up to 10,000'). So TABS, besides the TABS device TSO definitions is really all unregulated stuff, you just voluntarily install it, but doing so does not grant you any 2020 ADS-B Out (akk 14 CFR 91.226) compliant privileges.
> >
> > Drop me a private email if you want to discuss something deeper or specific.
> >
> > Popping up to a general comment:
> >
> > With the TN72 GPS we should be covered for folk that worry about TSO or not install issues in certified gliders. The TN72 *is* TSO'ed, but to TSO-C199 (TABS) not say TSO-C145c (for 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out... even if it does meets the performance level of TSO-C145c and can be used to do that in experimental aircraft). For 2020 Complaint ADS-B Out the need for an actual TSO GPS source in any certified aircraft seems well established, regardless of other arguments about that... but I have some faint hope that folks there might establish STCs that get around that (not for gliders but in general for GA).
> >
> > Jumping ahead to preventing possible issues: one thing people might run into is confusion when discussion with A&P IA folks or FSDO staff... who may assume that any discussion about ADS-B is to meet 14 CFR 91.225 and on the FAA folks will naturally want to follow standard policy there, specifically https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/1029526 My interpretation is simply that does *not* apply to TABS installs, since the install is not being done to comply with 14 CFR 91.226 and 92.227. As always discuss stuff with you A&P IA and let them worry about any questions to FSDO staff if needed.
> >
> > Now the TN72 is here, $350 + antenna + install costs to add in TABS ADS-B Out to any glider with a TT21 or TT22 already installed seems a great deal, and something folks want to think about over this winter... which was what started my post linked to up top.
>
> Darryl, the one thing you are not talking about is power supply. Gliders with only battery power present considerable challenges to meet the performance requirement of the FAA regulations. I suggest everyone who wants to install ADS-B out in a glider considers seriously this aspect.
>
> Andrzej

I spent year talking about batteries in gliders and I hope that has been discussed enough, and is mostly well solved today. For those folks who care some old content is here http://www.pacificsoaring.org/articles/2006/Battery-Care-and-Maintenance-Darryl-Ramm-PASCO-2006.pdf I'm not sure how helpful that is by itself, and it predates LiFePO4 batteries, but the main things there I hope people do is:

o Calculate a usable accurate (e.g. measure current draw of devices) ships power budget
o Properly charge their batteries and replace old tired batteries
o Undersatnd surface change effects and not to be confused by them.
o Understand that a 10Ah battery, especially a lead-acid chemistry (including VRLA) battery, will *not* deliver 10 Amp for 1 hour, i.e. how batteries are measured/spec'ed.
o Understand what the discharge curve looks like and how to estimate state of charge, if you can... if you can't then counting the power drawn is an option.

The TN72 adds an additional ~100mA load. For many gliders that won't break a power budget. I see folks rolling up to the glider port with multiple PDAs, iPhones, electric heated booties and God know what else. And again, my point here was mostly if you already have a Trig Transponder I want owners to be aware of options to to add ADS-B Out, especially via TABS and the low cost TN72 GPS.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Wednesday, December 13, 2017 at 6:00:09 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > Darryl, the one thing you are not talking about is power supply.
>
> A K2 pack seems to be working for simple mode C. Is there a reason to expect things to be significantly worse for ADS-B. (Maybe due to higher power out, more GPS power, a higher interrogation rate, and/or longer output transmissions?)

Impossible to say for sure.. you could calculate power budgets and tell us :-)

But... I expect them to be generally better at least with a TN72 GPS. Other GPS sources like what Andrzej has used in his ADS-B Out install in his glider (or gliders --done that in two glider now?) may have significantly higher current draw. Huge credit to Andrzej for being a really early adopter of fully 2020 Complaint ADS-B out in his glider(s).

The Trig TT21/TT22 are lower power draw than most old Mode C transponders and their separate encoders. The book numbers for an active interrogated TT22 (with built in encoder) and a TN72 is about 440mA @14V. A little less, but close, to the popular old combination of a Becker ATC 4401 Mode C transponder and ACK A-30 Encoder at 490 mA, and that is an old 175W not 250W output transponder.

The factor in power consumption when adding ADS-B out to a an existing transponder is just adding the power draw of the GPS receiver. There is no "interrogation" involved in ADS-B. There is a ~1 per second extended squitter broadcast, that one little broadcast is irrelevant in terms of power consumption. When you transponder is is a very active environment it is being interrogated many hundreds to around a thousand times per second. The little blinking indicator showing interrogations in a transponder is a big 'ol lie, it's just slowed down so dumb humans can see it blink.

[Mike C]

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 4:52:16 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 2:55:00 PM UTC-8, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 12:54:46 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 1:48:05 AM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > > It must be time for some more ADS-B posts, either that or we can talk about PW5 :-)
> > > >
> > > > With the ~$350 street price Trig TN72 GPS source now available in the USA I wanted to revisit my understanding of the situation with ADS-B Out in gliders. I wrote a forum post for local Northern California pilots but it probably helps lots of other folks in the USA. See https://www.williamssoaring.com/news/showthread.php/1085-ADS-B-Out-Info-think-about-ADS-B-out-installs-over-this-Winter
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > >
> > > > And specifically I want to correct some doubt/misinformation I've helped spread here before about the Trig TN72 GPS source when it was first announced. The TN72 is either (depending on how it is configured in the paired transponder) a:
> > > >
> > > > 1. TABS/TSO-C199 GPS source (with SIL=1)
> > > >
> > > > *or*
> > > >
> > > > 2. A "meets performance requirement of TSO-C145c" GPS source (language I prefer, although Trig may say it differently) (with SIL=3)
> > > >
> > > > (OK the TN72 can also do plain NMEA (with SIL=0), but that's not intersting here).
> > > >
> > > > A little more details and the implications of this is described in post linked to above.
> > > >
> > > > It would be great for folks doing 1090ES Out installs to share their experiences. Here, or contact me directly,
> > > >
> > > > I am happy to try to answer questions.
> > > >
> > > > I'm also planning to give a few talks on ADS-B (and FLARM and Transponders) over the next few months, certainly on the West Coast, details later.
> > > >
> > > > Darryl
> > >
> > > Regarding the Reno Class B airspace: It was my understanding that a glider can overfly it above 10,000 ft, and a transponder is only required below 10,000 (and ATC clearance below 8400). I can't see where the regulations have changed that for ADS-B?
> > >
> > > It's too bad the FAA saw fit to screw certified gliders - limiting the compliance they sought.
> > >
> > > Another detail: all the antennas I have seen thus far are suitable for bolting to the side of a DC-3. Do you know of any option that does not involve a loss of 5 points L/D? (I guess the huge one could be mounted indoors under a transparent area.)
> >
> > I think, the only issue is that Reno is not a class B airspace.
>
> B, C, what's in a letter? :). Now personally, I think the PW5 is a fine little glider other than it doesn't penetrate well and its easy to confuse the canopy release with the tow release.

LOL!

[jfitch]

On Wednesday, December 13, 2017 at 6:56:32 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 13, 2017 at 6:00:09 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > Darryl, the one thing you are not talking about is power supply.
> >
> > A K2 pack seems to be working for simple mode C. Is there a reason to expect things to be significantly worse for ADS-B. (Maybe due to higher power out, more GPS power, a higher interrogation rate, and/or longer output transmissions?)
>
> Impossible to say for sure.. you could calculate power budgets and tell us :-)
>
> But... I expect them to be generally better at least with a TN72 GPS. Other GPS sources like what Andrzej has used in his ADS-B Out install in his glider (or gliders --done that in two glider now?) may have significantly higher current draw. Huge credit to Andrzej for being a really early adopter of fully 2020 Complaint ADS-B out in his glider(s).
>
> The Trig TT21/TT22 are lower power draw than most old Mode C transponders and their separate encoders. The book numbers for an active interrogated TT22 (with built in encoder) and a TN72 is about 440mA @14V. A little less, but close, to the popular old combination of a Becker ATC 4401 Mode C transponder and ACK A-30 Encoder at 490 mA, and that is an old 175W not 250W output transponder.
>
> The factor in power consumption when adding ADS-B out to a an existing transponder is just adding the power draw of the GPS receiver. There is no "interrogation" involved in ADS-B. There is a ~1 per second extended squitter broadcast, that one little broadcast is irrelevant in terms of power consumption. When you transponder is is a very active environment it is being interrogated many hundreds to around a thousand times per second. The little blinking indicator showing interrogations in a transponder is a big 'ol lie, it's just slowed down so dumb humans can see it blink.

The specs on a TN70/TA70 are 360mA/240mA max/typ @ 14V. That's in addition to the transponder. At 12V that is likely to be 420mA/280mA. Not a killer but a significant extra load. Another 3AH out of the battery on a typical day. If you are ballasted with batteries like Jim, not too big a problem, but if you have the more typical 10 or 12 AH lead acid, it could be a problem.

If you are lucky enough to be flying an experimental glider, the TN72 and a suitable patch antenna looks a lot better for power consumption, perhaps only 150 mA.

[Chicago Pilot]

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 3:48:05 AM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> It must be time for some more ADS-B posts, either that or we can talk about PW5 :-)
>
> With the ~$350 street price Trig TN72 GPS source now available in the USA I wanted to revisit my understanding of the situation with ADS-B Out in gliders. I wrote a forum post for local Northern California pilots but it probably helps lots of other folks in the USA. See https://www.williamssoaring..com/news/showthread.php/1085-ADS-B-Out-Info-think-about-ADS-B-out-installs-over-this-Winter
>
> ---
>
> And specifically I want to correct some doubt/misinformation I've helped spread here before about the Trig TN72 GPS source when it was first announced. The TN72 is either (depending on how it is configured in the paired transponder) a:
>
> 1. TABS/TSO-C199 GPS source (with SIL=1)
>
> *or*
>
> 2. A "meets performance requirement of TSO-C145c" GPS source (language I prefer, although Trig may say it differently) (with SIL=3)
>
> (OK the TN72 can also do plain NMEA (with SIL=0), but that's not intersting here).
>
> A little more details and the implications of this is described in post linked to above.
>
> It would be great for folks doing 1090ES Out installs to share their experiences. Here, or contact me directly,
>
> I am happy to try to answer questions.
>
> I'm also planning to give a few talks on ADS-B (and FLARM and Transponders) over the next few months, certainly on the West Coast, details later.
>
> Darryl

Darryl I need to talk to you off line on this subject, Please email you contact info. thxs

[[email protected]]

There's someone in my club (we're Canadian but he's thinking of doing a fair amount of soaring in the U.S. in the future now that he has his own ship) who is considering transponder installation and ADS-B. If I understand the article if he wants full 2020 compliance the way to go right now would be a Trig TT22 (the transponder he is thinking of buying) combined with the TN70/TA70 correct? Antennas shouldn't be a problem as it's an early ASW-20.

If you want to talk about the PW-5, well I also know another Canadian pilot who owns one and flies it exclusively in the U.S. When she installed a Trig T22 and Powerflarm last winter the avionics shop did run the NMEA output from the Powrflarm to the transponder. From my reading of your article I gather this would A: not provide any official compliance with ADS-B requirements (they didn't think it would) and B: the output would show up on some ADS-B-in equipment but not the certified ones, or any of the ground based systems? I would be interested in the rationale behind that decision.

Thanks for the article and the posts.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 11:29:04 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> There's someone in my club (we're Canadian but he's thinking of doing a fair amount of soaring in the U.S. in the future now that he has his own ship) who is considering transponder installation and ADS-B. If I understand the article if he wants full 2020 compliance the way to go right now would be a Trig TT22 (the transponder he is thinking of buying) combined with the TN70/TA70 correct? Antennas shouldn't be a problem as it's an early ASW-20.
>
> If you want to talk about the PW-5, well I also know another Canadian pilot who owns one and flies it exclusively in the U.S. When she installed a Trig T22 and Powerflarm last winter the avionics shop did run the NMEA output from the Powrflarm to the transponder. From my reading of your article I gather this would A: not provide any official compliance with ADS-B requirements (they didn't think it would) and B: the output would show up on some ADS-B-in equipment but not the certified ones, or any of the ground based systems? I would be interested in the rationale behind that decision.
>
> Thanks for the article and the posts.

Dealing with Canadian registered aircraft and compliance with USA regulations is well beyond my area of comfort. Even the approval process for doing installation of a transponder in Canada is not something I have any understanding of. Canada has nothing like the 2020 Compliance regulations in the USA. OTOH folks in the GA avionics business in Canada might be able to help discuss how they do USA complaint ADS-B Out installs for GA aircraft planning on crossing the border.

The simplest thing may be not to worry about seeking 2020 Compliance unless there is a reason you need to, just install a TN72 for TABS output in the glider, do that install with SIL=1.

---

PowerFLARM NMEA Out connected to a TT22 or TT21 in the USA provides...

o Long range visibility to other PowerFLARM (with 1090ES In option) equipped gliders, hopefully to several tens of miles.
o Visibility to GA aircraft with portable ADS-B 1090ES In or dual link receivers (not UAT only receivers)
o Visibility to TCAS I and II, military IFF, and PCAS systems via the basic transponder
o Visibility to ATC via SSR when within radar range via the basic transponder

It does not provide
o Visibility to aircraft with IFR/panel mount ADS-B 1090ES In traffic displays
o ADS-B vsibility to ATC (but you have visibility via transponder when within SSR coverage)
o Visibility to aircraft with any UAT In only receivers (portable or panel mount).
o Does not make the aircraft an ADS-R and TIS-B client aircraft (which PowerFLARM won't decode anyhow).

Now the TN72 is available it probably makes sense for any people who have a SIL=0 install to replace that PowerFLARN or other NMEA connection with a Trig TN72 GPS to at least get a TABS install.

[jfitch]

On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 12:40:07 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 11:29:04 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > There's someone in my club (we're Canadian but he's thinking of doing a fair amount of soaring in the U.S. in the future now that he has his own ship) who is considering transponder installation and ADS-B. If I understand the article if he wants full 2020 compliance the way to go right now would be a Trig TT22 (the transponder he is thinking of buying) combined with the TN70/TA70 correct? Antennas shouldn't be a problem as it's an early ASW-20.
> >
> > If you want to talk about the PW-5, well I also know another Canadian pilot who owns one and flies it exclusively in the U.S. When she installed a Trig T22 and Powerflarm last winter the avionics shop did run the NMEA output from the Powrflarm to the transponder. From my reading of your article I gather this would A: not provide any official compliance with ADS-B requirements (they didn't think it would) and B: the output would show up on some ADS-B-in equipment but not the certified ones, or any of the ground based systems? I would be interested in the rationale behind that decision.
> >
> > Thanks for the article and the posts.
>
> Dealing with Canadian registered aircraft and compliance with USA regulations is well beyond my area of comfort. Even the approval process for doing installation of a transponder in Canada is not something I have any understanding of. Canada has nothing like the 2020 Compliance regulations in the USA. OTOH folks in the GA avionics business in Canada might be able to help discuss how they do USA complaint ADS-B Out installs for GA aircraft planning on crossing the border.
>
> The simplest thing may be not to worry about seeking 2020 Compliance unless there is a reason you need to, just install a TN72 for TABS output in the glider, do that install with SIL=1.
>
> ---
>
> PowerFLARM NMEA Out connected to a TT22 or TT21 in the USA provides...
>
> o Long range visibility to other PowerFLARM (with 1090ES In option) equipped gliders, hopefully to several tens of miles.
> o Visibility to GA aircraft with portable ADS-B 1090ES In or dual link receivers (not UAT only receivers)
> o Visibility to TCAS I and II, military IFF, and PCAS systems via the basic transponder
> o Visibility to ATC via SSR when within radar range via the basic transponder
>
> It does not provide
> o Visibility to aircraft with IFR/panel mount ADS-B 1090ES In traffic displays
> o ADS-B vsibility to ATC (but you have visibility via transponder when within SSR coverage)
> o Visibility to aircraft with any UAT In only receivers (portable or panel mount).
> o Does not make the aircraft an ADS-R and TIS-B client aircraft (which PowerFLARM won't decode anyhow).
>
> Now the TN72 is available it probably makes sense for any people who have a SIL=0 install to replace that PowerFLARN or other NMEA connection with a Trig TN72 GPS to at least get a TABS install.

Would only provide visibility to gliders and portable or panel mount receivers inside of radar coverage? Needs to be pinged to broadcast, no? (OK that's a lot of places but not everywhere).

[Darryl Ramm]

On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 4:04:16 PM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 12:40:07 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 11:29:04 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > There's someone in my club (we're Canadian but he's thinking of doing a fair amount of soaring in the U.S. in the future now that he has his own ship) who is considering transponder installation and ADS-B. If I understand the article if he wants full 2020 compliance the way to go right now would be a Trig TT22 (the transponder he is thinking of buying) combined with the TN70/TA70 correct? Antennas shouldn't be a problem as it's an early ASW-20.
> > >
> > > If you want to talk about the PW-5, well I also know another Canadian pilot who owns one and flies it exclusively in the U.S. When she installed a Trig T22 and Powerflarm last winter the avionics shop did run the NMEA output from the Powrflarm to the transponder. From my reading of your article I gather this would A: not provide any official compliance with ADS-B requirements (they didn't think it would) and B: the output would show up on some ADS-B-in equipment but not the certified ones, or any of the ground based systems? I would be interested in the rationale behind that decision.
> > >
> > > Thanks for the article and the posts.
> >
> > Dealing with Canadian registered aircraft and compliance with USA regulations is well beyond my area of comfort. Even the approval process for doing installation of a transponder in Canada is not something I have any understanding of. Canada has nothing like the 2020 Compliance regulations in the USA. OTOH folks in the GA avionics business in Canada might be able to help discuss how they do USA complaint ADS-B Out installs for GA aircraft planning on crossing the border.
> >
> > The simplest thing may be not to worry about seeking 2020 Compliance unless there is a reason you need to, just install a TN72 for TABS output in the glider, do that install with SIL=1.
> >
> > ---
> >
> > PowerFLARM NMEA Out connected to a TT22 or TT21 in the USA provides...
> >
> > o Long range visibility to other PowerFLARM (with 1090ES In option) equipped gliders, hopefully to several tens of miles.
> > o Visibility to GA aircraft with portable ADS-B 1090ES In or dual link receivers (not UAT only receivers)
> > o Visibility to TCAS I and II, military IFF, and PCAS systems via the basic transponder
> > o Visibility to ATC via SSR when within radar range via the basic transponder
> >
> > It does not provide
> > o Visibility to aircraft with IFR/panel mount ADS-B 1090ES In traffic displays
> > o ADS-B vsibility to ATC (but you have visibility via transponder when within SSR coverage)
> > o Visibility to aircraft with any UAT In only receivers (portable or panel mount).
> > o Does not make the aircraft an ADS-R and TIS-B client aircraft (which PowerFLARM won't decode anyhow).
> >
> > Now the TN72 is available it probably makes sense for any people who have a SIL=0 install to replace that PowerFLARN or other NMEA connection with a Trig TN72 GPS to at least get a TABS install.
>
> Would only provide visibility to gliders and portable or panel mount receivers inside of radar coverage? Needs to be pinged to broadcast, no? (OK that's a lot of places but not everywhere).

Jon. I not sure specifically what part you are asking a question about.

ADS-B anything does not rely on a transponders being interrogated. Extended Squitter stuff is separate to interrogation responses. If you have a transponder with a GPS connected and its transmitting ADS-B Out at any SIL level then PowerFLARM and portable 1090ES ADS-B In receivers should see you. (I can't assure you for sure that SIL=0 will be seen ion every device, a portable manufacturer might decide to require SIL=1, not sure why they would but they could... ).

PCAS relies on an external interrogator. SSR or one of the ones below...

TCAS I, II, TCAD and IFF all are their own active interrogators and do not require the target to be near ground based SSR.

[jfitch]

On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 4:27:39 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 4:04:16 PM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 12:40:07 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 11:29:04 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > > There's someone in my club (we're Canadian but he's thinking of doing a fair amount of soaring in the U.S. in the future now that he has his own ship) who is considering transponder installation and ADS-B. If I understand the article if he wants full 2020 compliance the way to go right now would be a Trig TT22 (the transponder he is thinking of buying) combined with the TN70/TA70 correct? Antennas shouldn't be a problem as it's an early ASW-20.
> > > >
> > > > If you want to talk about the PW-5, well I also know another Canadian pilot who owns one and flies it exclusively in the U.S. When she installed a Trig T22 and Powerflarm last winter the avionics shop did run the NMEA output from the Powrflarm to the transponder. From my reading of your article I gather this would A: not provide any official compliance with ADS-B requirements (they didn't think it would) and B: the output would show up on some ADS-B-in equipment but not the certified ones, or any of the ground based systems? I would be interested in the rationale behind that decision.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the article and the posts.
> > >
> > > Dealing with Canadian registered aircraft and compliance with USA regulations is well beyond my area of comfort. Even the approval process for doing installation of a transponder in Canada is not something I have any understanding of. Canada has nothing like the 2020 Compliance regulations in the USA. OTOH folks in the GA avionics business in Canada might be able to help discuss how they do USA complaint ADS-B Out installs for GA aircraft planning on crossing the border.
> > >
> > > The simplest thing may be not to worry about seeking 2020 Compliance unless there is a reason you need to, just install a TN72 for TABS output in the glider, do that install with SIL=1.
> > >
> > > ---
> > >
> > > PowerFLARM NMEA Out connected to a TT22 or TT21 in the USA provides....
> > >
> > > o Long range visibility to other PowerFLARM (with 1090ES In option) equipped gliders, hopefully to several tens of miles.
> > > o Visibility to GA aircraft with portable ADS-B 1090ES In or dual link receivers (not UAT only receivers)
> > > o Visibility to TCAS I and II, military IFF, and PCAS systems via the basic transponder
> > > o Visibility to ATC via SSR when within radar range via the basic transponder
> > >
> > > It does not provide
> > > o Visibility to aircraft with IFR/panel mount ADS-B 1090ES In traffic displays
> > > o ADS-B vsibility to ATC (but you have visibility via transponder when within SSR coverage)
> > > o Visibility to aircraft with any UAT In only receivers (portable or panel mount).
> > > o Does not make the aircraft an ADS-R and TIS-B client aircraft (which PowerFLARM won't decode anyhow).
> > >
> > > Now the TN72 is available it probably makes sense for any people who have a SIL=0 install to replace that PowerFLARN or other NMEA connection with a Trig TN72 GPS to at least get a TABS install.
> >
> > Would only provide visibility to gliders and portable or panel mount receivers inside of radar coverage? Needs to be pinged to broadcast, no? (OK that's a lot of places but not everywhere).
>
> Jon. I not sure specifically what part you are asking a question about.
>
> ADS-B anything does not rely on a transponders being interrogated. Extended Squitter stuff is separate to interrogation responses. If you have a transponder with a GPS connected and its transmitting ADS-B Out at any SIL level then PowerFLARM and portable 1090ES ADS-B In receivers should see you. (I can't assure you for sure that SIL=0 will be seen ion every device, a portable manufacturer might decide to require SIL=1, not sure why they would but they could... ).
>
> PCAS relies on an external interrogator. SSR or one of the ones below...
>
> TCAS I, II, TCAD and IFF all are their own active interrogators and do not require the target to be near ground based SSR.

OK, so ADS-B information is transmitted in the blind?

[Darryl Ramm]

On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 7:20:02 PM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:

> OK, so ADS-B information is transmitted in the blind?

Yep. Completely blind/automatic. That is what the A in ADS-B stands for.

Automatic Dependent Surveillance - Broadcast

Dependent meaning GNSS/GPS.

ADS-B Out broadcasts data messages several times per second completely autonomously, with some pseudorandom time dither to avoid correlated collisions. The mix is a bit complex with ID, status, position and velocity messages broadcast at different rates. Position and velocity are twice per second.

The ADS-B Out side of things make no response to any interrogation and cannot tell if anything is listening. 1090ES Out systems are in practice parts of Mode S transponders and so have a whole slew of other things they do including other automatic broadcasts (like acquisition squitters) and multiple different interrogation types and on high-end transponder even air-air data link for TCAS resolution coordination, etc.. Way more complex than legacy Mode A/C transponders.... and so complex you can see why the expectation back in the early days of ADS-B planning seemed to be that Mode S transponder costs were going to remain high, and why UAT might be a good idea... well no because FPGAs and fast microcontrollers happened and turned transponder hardware into a software problem...

[2G]

On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 8:30:06 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 7:20:02 PM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
>
> > OK, so ADS-B information is transmitted in the blind?
>
> Yep. Completely blind/automatic. That is what the A in ADS-B stands for.
>
> Automatic Dependent Surveillance - Broadcast
>
> Dependent meaning GNSS/GPS.
>
> ADS-B Out broadcasts data messages several times per second completely autonomously, with some pseudorandom time dither to avoid correlated collisions. The mix is a bit complex with ID, status, position and velocity messages broadcast at different rates. Position and velocity are twice per second..
>
> The ADS-B Out side of things make no response to any interrogation and cannot tell if anything is listening. 1090ES Out systems are in practice parts of Mode S transponders and so have a whole slew of other things they do including other automatic broadcasts (like acquisition squitters) and multiple different interrogation types and on high-end transponder even air-air data link for TCAS resolution coordination, etc.. Way more complex than legacy Mode A/C transponders.... and so complex you can see why the expectation back in the early days of ADS-B planning seemed to be that Mode S transponder costs were going to remain high, and why UAT might be a good idea... well no because FPGAs and fast microcontrollers happened and turned transponder hardware into a software problem...

One more thing: if you get the TN72 you will also have to get a TSO'd antenna. So what, you say. Well the antenna costs as much as the TN72.

Tom

[Darryl Ramm]

On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 9:39:35 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 8:30:06 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 7:20:02 PM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> >
> > > OK, so ADS-B information is transmitted in the blind?
> >
> > Yep. Completely blind/automatic. That is what the A in ADS-B stands for..
> >
> > Automatic Dependent Surveillance - Broadcast
> >
> > Dependent meaning GNSS/GPS.
> >
> > ADS-B Out broadcasts data messages several times per second completely autonomously, with some pseudorandom time dither to avoid correlated collisions. The mix is a bit complex with ID, status, position and velocity messages broadcast at different rates. Position and velocity are twice per second.
> >
> > The ADS-B Out side of things make no response to any interrogation and cannot tell if anything is listening. 1090ES Out systems are in practice parts of Mode S transponders and so have a whole slew of other things they do including other automatic broadcasts (like acquisition squitters) and multiple different interrogation types and on high-end transponder even air-air data link for TCAS resolution coordination, etc.. Way more complex than legacy Mode A/C transponders.... and so complex you can see why the expectation back in the early days of ADS-B planning seemed to be that Mode S transponder costs were going to remain high, and why UAT might be a good idea... well no because FPGAs and fast microcontrollers happened and turned transponder hardware into a software problem...
>
> One more thing: if you get the TN72 you will also have to get a TSO'd antenna. So what, you say. Well the antenna costs as much as the TN72.
>
> Tom

I would hope not, the thing is ugly as hell. If your glider is experimental there is no way I'd expect folks to install that, if certified ask your A&P IA what they want to see to sign off on a minor alteration to do a TABS install.

[2G]

On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 9:54:54 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 9:39:35 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 8:30:06 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 7:20:02 PM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> > >
> > > > OK, so ADS-B information is transmitted in the blind?
> > >
> > > Yep. Completely blind/automatic. That is what the A in ADS-B stands for.
> > >
> > > Automatic Dependent Surveillance - Broadcast
> > >
> > > Dependent meaning GNSS/GPS.
> > >
> > > ADS-B Out broadcasts data messages several times per second completely autonomously, with some pseudorandom time dither to avoid correlated collisions. The mix is a bit complex with ID, status, position and velocity messages broadcast at different rates. Position and velocity are twice per second.
> > >
> > > The ADS-B Out side of things make no response to any interrogation and cannot tell if anything is listening. 1090ES Out systems are in practice parts of Mode S transponders and so have a whole slew of other things they do including other automatic broadcasts (like acquisition squitters) and multiple different interrogation types and on high-end transponder even air-air data link for TCAS resolution coordination, etc.. Way more complex than legacy Mode A/C transponders.... and so complex you can see why the expectation back in the early days of ADS-B planning seemed to be that Mode S transponder costs were going to remain high, and why UAT might be a good idea.... well no because FPGAs and fast microcontrollers happened and turned transponder hardware into a software problem...
> >
> > One more thing: if you get the TN72 you will also have to get a TSO'd antenna. So what, you say. Well the antenna costs as much as the TN72.
> >
> > Tom
>
> I would hope not, the thing is ugly as hell. If your glider is experimental there is no way I'd expect folks to install that, if certified ask your A&P IA what they want to see to sign off on a minor alteration to do a TABS install.

Hoping isn't a part of an inspection: if it isn't TSO'd how can it be signed off by an IA?

[Darryl Ramm]

On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 10:18:47 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 9:54:54 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 9:39:35 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> > > On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 8:30:06 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 7:20:02 PM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > OK, so ADS-B information is transmitted in the blind?
> > > >
> > > > Yep. Completely blind/automatic. That is what the A in ADS-B stands for.
> > > >
> > > > Automatic Dependent Surveillance - Broadcast
> > > >
> > > > Dependent meaning GNSS/GPS.
> > > >
> > > > ADS-B Out broadcasts data messages several times per second completely autonomously, with some pseudorandom time dither to avoid correlated collisions. The mix is a bit complex with ID, status, position and velocity messages broadcast at different rates. Position and velocity are twice per second.
> > > >
> > > > The ADS-B Out side of things make no response to any interrogation and cannot tell if anything is listening. 1090ES Out systems are in practice parts of Mode S transponders and so have a whole slew of other things they do including other automatic broadcasts (like acquisition squitters) and multiple different interrogation types and on high-end transponder even air-air data link for TCAS resolution coordination, etc.. Way more complex than legacy Mode A/C transponders.... and so complex you can see why the expectation back in the early days of ADS-B planning seemed to be that Mode S transponder costs were going to remain high, and why UAT might be a good idea.... well no because FPGAs and fast microcontrollers happened and turned transponder hardware into a software problem...
> > >
> > > One more thing: if you get the TN72 you will also have to get a TSO'd antenna. So what, you say. Well the antenna costs as much as the TN72.
> > >
> > > Tom
> >
> > I would hope not, the thing is ugly as hell. If your glider is experimental there is no way I'd expect folks to install that, if certified ask your A&P IA what they want to see to sign off on a minor alteration to do a TABS install.
>
> Hoping isn't a part of an inspection: if it isn't TSO'd how can it be signed off by an IA?

Hoping as in whoever does an install/sign off can work out the minimal work/correct thing to do for that particular install. That is their job.

There are lots of non-TSO equipment installed in certified gliders all the time. It is up to the A&P IA to determine if where needed the installation meets the performance requirements, and a TSO is one way of doing that. Trig also publish the key relevant performance spec of that antenna making it pretty easy to select alternate choices. But I am not an A&P IA and even if I was I am not the A&P IA doing the install in your particular glider.

I am not going to go down this rat hole further, if you want to do an install in a certified glider you need an A&P IA to sign off on that. If you want to move forward go and start that discussion with that person, if they are clear then book shop time, order the parts, and get go. If they get stuck or need contacts at Trig or the FAA I'm happy to help them, or SSA folks likely can as well (or better). One thing owners should avoid doing is contacting FSDO staff and asking them about ADS-B installs. Leave those discussions if needed at all to a trusted A&P IA who will actually be signing off on the install.

[son_of_flubber]

A small point of clarification that I've not seen mentioned elsewhere.

Mid Continent Instruments and Avionics told me that the software in the panel mounted 'head unit' TC20 also needs to be updated.

Your transponder TT21 or TT22 is in the gold box. The TC20 is the black thing with buttons and a screen that mounts in your panel. You need to ship both the gold box and the black panel thing to Mid Continent.

My Avionics shop is fully booked doing ADSB installs. But my glider is experimental, so they're happy for me to do all the leg work, get the software updated, get the antenna and TN72 mounted in the tight space, make power and interconnections between the boxes and configure the software. Richard at Craggy Aero provided a complete cable harness, so the install is pretty easy.

Once it is all set, I can trailer the glider to the Avionics appointment (90 minute drive) and wait while they check the installation and make the log book entries. Should take about one hour of their time. I'll get the two-year check transponder check on the same road trip.

A close encounter with a power plane last fall encouraged me to upgrade the transponder that came with the glider to TABS.

[Craig Funston[_3_]]

On Saturday, December 16, 2017 at 5:54:28 PM UTC-8, son_of_flubber wrote:
> A small point of clarification that I've not seen mentioned elsewhere.
>
> Mid Continent Instruments and Avionics told me that the software in the panel mounted 'head unit' TC20 also needs to be updated.
>
> Your transponder TT21 or TT22 is in the gold box. The TC20 is the black thing with buttons and a screen that mounts in your panel. You need to ship both the gold box and the black panel thing to Mid Continent.
>
> My Avionics shop is fully booked doing ADSB installs. But my glider is experimental, so they're happy for me to do all the leg work, get the software updated, get the antenna and TN72 mounted in the tight space, make power and interconnections between the boxes and configure the software. Richard at Craggy Aero provided a complete cable harness, so the install is pretty easy.
>
> Once it is all set, I can trailer the glider to the Avionics appointment (90 minute drive) and wait while they check the installation and make the log book entries. Should take about one hour of their time. I'll get the two-year check transponder check on the same road trip.
>
> A close encounter with a power plane last fall encouraged me to upgrade the transponder that came with the glider to TABS.

Thanks Flub,

That's correct. I just received the updated TC20 control head and TT22 (formerly TT21) transponder box back from Mid Continent. Everything was very professionally done and all certification documents included. Now installing in an experimental category glider with the TN72 box and TA70 antenna. This should provide full 2020 compliance. Note: certificated gliders will require the TN70 unit instead of TN72.

Cheers,
Craig
7Q

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

I have added Goddard wiring harnesses for the TN70 and TN72 to my web site. There are complete harnesses for new installations - with connections for the TT22, TC20 display head, and TN70 or TN72.

There are also new wiring harnesses that make it easy to add a TN70 or TN72 GPS to an existing TT22 transponder installation. The new wiring harness is designed to be inserted between the TT22 and the existing TT22 wiring harness. It has a DB-25m connector for connection to the TT22, a DB-25f connector for connection to the existing TT22 wiring harness, and DB-25f for connection to the TN70 GPS or DB-9f connector for connection to a TN72.

I have also added antenna cables for connecting a TN70 or TN72 to a TA70 GPS antenna.

Details are available on my Trig web page:
http://cumulus-soaring.com/trig.htm

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
____________________________________________

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 3:48:05 AM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> It must be time for some more ADS-B posts, either that or we can talk about PW5 :-)
>
> With the ~$350 street price Trig TN72 GPS source now available in the USA I wanted to revisit my understanding of the situation with ADS-B Out in gliders. I wrote a forum post for local Northern California pilots but it probably helps lots of other folks in the USA. See https://www.williamssoaring..com/news/showthread.php/1085-ADS-B-Out-Info-think-about-ADS-B-out-installs-over-this-Winter
>
> ---
>
> And specifically I want to correct some doubt/misinformation I've helped spread here before about the Trig TN72 GPS source when it was first announced. The TN72 is either (depending on how it is configured in the paired transponder) a:
>
> 1. TABS/TSO-C199 GPS source (with SIL=1)
>
> *or*
>
> 2. A "meets performance requirement of TSO-C145c" GPS source (language I prefer, although Trig may say it differently) (with SIL=3)
>
> (OK the TN72 can also do plain NMEA (with SIL=0), but that's not intersting here).
>
> A little more details and the implications of this is described in post linked to above.
>
> It would be great for folks doing 1090ES Out installs to share their experiences. Here, or contact me directly,
>
> I am happy to try to answer questions.
>
> I'm also planning to give a few talks on ADS-B (and FLARM and Transponders) over the next few months, certainly on the West Coast, details later.
>
> Darryl

[2G]

On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 3:50:17 PM UTC-8, Paul Remde wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have added Goddard wiring harnesses for the TN70 and TN72 to my web site. There are complete harnesses for new installations - with connections for the TT22, TC20 display head, and TN70 or TN72.
>
> There are also new wiring harnesses that make it easy to add a TN70 or TN72 GPS to an existing TT22 transponder installation. The new wiring harness is designed to be inserted between the TT22 and the existing TT22 wiring harness. It has a DB-25m connector for connection to the TT22, a DB-25f connector for connection to the existing TT22 wiring harness, and DB-25f for connection to the TN70 GPS or DB-9f connector for connection to a TN72.
>
> I have also added antenna cables for connecting a TN70 or TN72 to a TA70 GPS antenna.
>
> Details are available on my Trig web page:
> http://cumulus-soaring.com/trig.htm
>
> Good Soaring,
>
> Paul Remde
> Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
> ____________________________________________
>
> On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 3:48:05 AM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > It must be time for some more ADS-B posts, either that or we can talk about PW5 :-)
> >
> > With the ~$350 street price Trig TN72 GPS source now available in the USA I wanted to revisit my understanding of the situation with ADS-B Out in gliders. I wrote a forum post for local Northern California pilots but it probably helps lots of other folks in the USA. See https://www.williamssoaring.com/news/showthread.php/1085-ADS-B-Out-Info-think-about-ADS-B-out-installs-over-this-Winter
> >
> > ---
> >
> > And specifically I want to correct some doubt/misinformation I've helped spread here before about the Trig TN72 GPS source when it was first announced. The TN72 is either (depending on how it is configured in the paired transponder) a:
> >
> > 1. TABS/TSO-C199 GPS source (with SIL=1)
> >
> > *or*
> >
> > 2. A "meets performance requirement of TSO-C145c" GPS source (language I prefer, although Trig may say it differently) (with SIL=3)
> >
> > (OK the TN72 can also do plain NMEA (with SIL=0), but that's not intersting here).
> >
> > A little more details and the implications of this is described in post linked to above.
> >
> > It would be great for folks doing 1090ES Out installs to share their experiences. Here, or contact me directly,
> >
> > I am happy to try to answer questions.
> >
> > I'm also planning to give a few talks on ADS-B (and FLARM and Transponders) over the next few months, certainly on the West Coast, details later.
> >
> > Darryl

A big issue for me is that installing a TN72 and, if necessary, an appropriate transponder will not make you ADS-B Out compliant; it only provides compliance with TABS. TABS gives you the ability to transmit position data to ATC and other aircraft, which is a good thing. But it will not give you access to control zones requiring ADS-B Out, basically any control zone requiring Mode C now. To comply with ADS-B Out you would need the TN70, which is a much larger (and more expensive) unit than the TN72. I don't mind the cost, but the size is a killer. I am inclined to wait and see if the FAA allows TABS aircraft into the ADS-B zones in two years. Of course, if you never intend to fly in these areas you don't care. Personally the only areas of any interest to me is Reno and Spokane.

Tom

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 4:26:05 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 3:50:17 PM UTC-8, Paul Remde wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I have added Goddard wiring harnesses for the TN70 and TN72 to my web site. There are complete harnesses for new installations - with connections for the TT22, TC20 display head, and TN70 or TN72.
> >
> > There are also new wiring harnesses that make it easy to add a TN70 or TN72 GPS to an existing TT22 transponder installation. The new wiring harness is designed to be inserted between the TT22 and the existing TT22 wiring harness. It has a DB-25m connector for connection to the TT22, a DB-25f connector for connection to the existing TT22 wiring harness, and DB-25f for connection to the TN70 GPS or DB-9f connector for connection to a TN72.
> >
> > I have also added antenna cables for connecting a TN70 or TN72 to a TA70 GPS antenna.
> >
> > Details are available on my Trig web page:
> > http://cumulus-soaring.com/trig.htm
> >
> > Good Soaring,
> >
> > Paul Remde
> > Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
> > ____________________________________________
> >
> > On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 3:48:05 AM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > It must be time for some more ADS-B posts, either that or we can talk about PW5 :-)
> > >
> > > With the ~$350 street price Trig TN72 GPS source now available in the USA I wanted to revisit my understanding of the situation with ADS-B Out in gliders. I wrote a forum post for local Northern California pilots but it probably helps lots of other folks in the USA. See https://www.williamssoaring.com/news/showthread.php/1085-ADS-B-Out-Info-think-about-ADS-B-out-installs-over-this-Winter
> > >
> > > ---
> > >
> > > And specifically I want to correct some doubt/misinformation I've helped spread here before about the Trig TN72 GPS source when it was first announced. The TN72 is either (depending on how it is configured in the paired transponder) a:
> > >
> > > 1. TABS/TSO-C199 GPS source (with SIL=1)
> > >
> > > *or*
> > >
> > > 2. A "meets performance requirement of TSO-C145c" GPS source (language I prefer, although Trig may say it differently) (with SIL=3)
> > >
> > > (OK the TN72 can also do plain NMEA (with SIL=0), but that's not intersting here).
> > >
> > > A little more details and the implications of this is described in post linked to above.
> > >
> > > It would be great for folks doing 1090ES Out installs to share their experiences. Here, or contact me directly,
> > >
> > > I am happy to try to answer questions.
> > >
> > > I'm also planning to give a few talks on ADS-B (and FLARM and Transponders) over the next few months, certainly on the West Coast, details later..
> > >
> > > Darryl
>
> A big issue for me is that installing a TN72 and, if necessary, an appropriate transponder will not make you ADS-B Out compliant; it only provides compliance with TABS. TABS gives you the ability to transmit position data to ATC and other aircraft, which is a good thing. But it will not give you access to control zones requiring ADS-B Out, basically any control zone requiring Mode C now. To comply with ADS-B Out you would need the TN70, which is a much larger (and more expensive) unit than the TN72. I don't mind the cost, but the size is a killer. I am inclined to wait and see if the FAA allows TABS aircraft into the ADS-B zones in two years. Of course, if you never intend to fly in these areas you don't care. Personally the only areas of any interest to me is Reno and Spokane.
>
> Tom

Craggy Aero has been selling the cables for the TT22 with the GPS in and TIS out for several years. Coax Cables and cables for the TN72 and TN70 are also available.

A good explanation the what is required for 2020 on this link.

http://www.craggyaero.com/trig.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Darryl Ramm]

That's not quite correct, well not for experimental aircraft. I realize your ASH26E is type certified, but lets not make hard statements that don't apply to all cases. I tried to cover the full situation in the link that started this thread.

In an experimental glider you can use a TN72 to meet full 2020 Compliance if you choose to, that's the "SIL=3" install documented in the TN72 installation guide. For type certified gliders an actual TSO-C145c GPS source is required like the TN70.



l On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 4:26:05 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 3:50:17 PM UTC-8, Paul Remde wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I have added Goddard wiring harnesses for the TN70 and TN72 to my web site. There are complete harnesses for new installations - with connections for the TT22, TC20 display head, and TN70 or TN72.
> >
> > There are also new wiring harnesses that make it easy to add a TN70 or TN72 GPS to an existing TT22 transponder installation. The new wiring harness is designed to be inserted between the TT22 and the existing TT22 wiring harness. It has a DB-25m connector for connection to the TT22, a DB-25f connector for connection to the existing TT22 wiring harness, and DB-25f for connection to the TN70 GPS or DB-9f connector for connection to a TN72.
> >
> > I have also added antenna cables for connecting a TN70 or TN72 to a TA70 GPS antenna.
> >
> > Details are available on my Trig web page:
> > http://cumulus-soaring.com/trig.htm
> >
> > Good Soaring,
> >
> > Paul Remde
> > Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
> > ____________________________________________
> >
> > On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 3:48:05 AM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > It must be time for some more ADS-B posts, either that or we can talk about PW5 :-)
> > >
> > > With the ~$350 street price Trig TN72 GPS source now available in the USA I wanted to revisit my understanding of the situation with ADS-B Out in gliders. I wrote a forum post for local Northern California pilots but it probably helps lots of other folks in the USA. See https://www.williamssoaring.com/news/showthread.php/1085-ADS-B-Out-Info-think-about-ADS-B-out-installs-over-this-Winter
> > >
> > > ---
> > >
> > > And specifically I want to correct some doubt/misinformation I've helped spread here before about the Trig TN72 GPS source when it was first announced. The TN72 is either (depending on how it is configured in the paired transponder) a:
> > >
> > > 1. TABS/TSO-C199 GPS source (with SIL=1)
> > >
> > > *or*
> > >
> > > 2. A "meets performance requirement of TSO-C145c" GPS source (language I prefer, although Trig may say it differently) (with SIL=3)
> > >
> > > (OK the TN72 can also do plain NMEA (with SIL=0), but that's not intersting here).
> > >
> > > A little more details and the implications of this is described in post linked to above.
> > >
> > > It would be great for folks doing 1090ES Out installs to share their experiences. Here, or contact me directly,
> > >
> > > I am happy to try to answer questions.
> > >
> > > I'm also planning to give a few talks on ADS-B (and FLARM and Transponders) over the next few months, certainly on the West Coast, details later..
> > >
> > > Darryl
>
> A big issue for me is that installing a TN72 and, if necessary, an appropriate transponder will not make you ADS-B Out compliant; it only provides compliance with TABS. TABS gives you the ability to transmit position data to ATC and other aircraft, which is a good thing. But it will not give you access to control zones requiring ADS-B Out, basically any control zone requiring Mode C now. To comply with ADS-B Out you would need the TN70, which is a much larger (and more expensive) unit than the TN72. I don't mind the cost, but the size is a killer. I am inclined to wait and see if the FAA allows TABS aircraft into the ADS-B zones in two years. Of course, if you never intend to fly in these areas you don't care. Personally the only areas of any interest to me is Reno and Spokane.
>
> Tom

[Jeff Morgan]

On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 10:28:50 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:

> In an experimental glider you can use a TN72 to meet full 2020 Compliance if you choose to, that's the "SIL=3" install documented in the TN72 installation guide. For type certified gliders an actual TSO-C145c GPS source is required like the TN70.
>

Ok, so where does that leave a glider with an Experimental glider with a Trig 21?

I think I can reasonably avoid places like Reno and Spokane for now, just want other aircraft to see me.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Friday, January 5, 2018 at 6:44:26 AM UTC-8, Jeff Morgan wrote:
> On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 10:28:50 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>
> > In an experimental glider you can use a TN72 to meet full 2020 Compliance if you choose to, that's the "SIL=3" install documented in the TN72 installation guide. For type certified gliders an actual TSO-C145c GPS source is required like the TN70.
> >
>
> Ok, so where does that leave a glider with an Experimental glider with a Trig 21?
>
> I think I can reasonably avoid places like Reno and Spokane for now, just want other aircraft to see me.

The top link in this thread is not clear in that?

[[email protected]]

On Friday, January 5, 2018 at 11:38:41 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Friday, January 5, 2018 at 6:44:26 AM UTC-8, Jeff Morgan wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 10:28:50 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> >
> > > In an experimental glider you can use a TN72 to meet full 2020 Compliance if you choose to, that's the "SIL=3" install documented in the TN72 installation guide. For type certified gliders an actual TSO-C145c GPS source is required like the TN70.
> > >
> >
> > Ok, so where does that leave a glider with an Experimental glider with a Trig 21?
> >
> > I think I can reasonably avoid places like Reno and Spokane for now, just want other aircraft to see me.
>
> The top link in this thread is not clear in that?

[jfitch]

On Friday, January 5, 2018 at 6:44:26 AM UTC-8, Jeff Morgan wrote:
> On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 10:28:50 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>
> > In an experimental glider you can use a TN72 to meet full 2020 Compliance if you choose to, that's the "SIL=3" install documented in the TN72 installation guide. For type certified gliders an actual TSO-C145c GPS source is required like the TN70.
> >
>
> Ok, so where does that leave a glider with an Experimental glider with a Trig 21?
>
> I think I can reasonably avoid places like Reno and Spokane for now, just want other aircraft to see me.

Just about $900 short of compliance?

[Jeff Morgan]

On Saturday, January 6, 2018 at 9:35:38 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:

> Just about $900 short of compliance?


That's what it is starting to sound like.

[2G]

On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 9:28:50 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> That's not quite correct, well not for experimental aircraft. I realize your ASH26E is type certified, but lets not make hard statements that don't apply to all cases. I tried to cover the full situation in the link that started this thread.
>
> In an experimental glider you can use a TN72 to meet full 2020 Compliance if you choose to, that's the "SIL=3" install documented in the TN72 installation guide. For type certified gliders an actual TSO-C145c GPS source is required like the TN70.
>
>
>
> l On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 4:26:05 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 3:50:17 PM UTC-8, Paul Remde wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I have added Goddard wiring harnesses for the TN70 and TN72 to my web site. There are complete harnesses for new installations - with connections for the TT22, TC20 display head, and TN70 or TN72.
> > >
> > > There are also new wiring harnesses that make it easy to add a TN70 or TN72 GPS to an existing TT22 transponder installation. The new wiring harness is designed to be inserted between the TT22 and the existing TT22 wiring harness. It has a DB-25m connector for connection to the TT22, a DB-25f connector for connection to the existing TT22 wiring harness, and DB-25f for connection to the TN70 GPS or DB-9f connector for connection to a TN72.
> > >
> > > I have also added antenna cables for connecting a TN70 or TN72 to a TA70 GPS antenna.
> > >
> > > Details are available on my Trig web page:
> > > http://cumulus-soaring.com/trig.htm
> > >
> > > Good Soaring,
> > >
> > > Paul Remde
> > > Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
> > > ____________________________________________
> > >
> > > On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 3:48:05 AM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > > It must be time for some more ADS-B posts, either that or we can talk about PW5 :-)
> > > >
> > > > With the ~$350 street price Trig TN72 GPS source now available in the USA I wanted to revisit my understanding of the situation with ADS-B Out in gliders. I wrote a forum post for local Northern California pilots but it probably helps lots of other folks in the USA. See https://www.williamssoaring.com/news/showthread.php/1085-ADS-B-Out-Info-think-about-ADS-B-out-installs-over-this-Winter
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > >
> > > > And specifically I want to correct some doubt/misinformation I've helped spread here before about the Trig TN72 GPS source when it was first announced. The TN72 is either (depending on how it is configured in the paired transponder) a:
> > > >
> > > > 1. TABS/TSO-C199 GPS source (with SIL=1)
> > > >
> > > > *or*
> > > >
> > > > 2. A "meets performance requirement of TSO-C145c" GPS source (language I prefer, although Trig may say it differently) (with SIL=3)
> > > >
> > > > (OK the TN72 can also do plain NMEA (with SIL=0), but that's not intersting here).
> > > >
> > > > A little more details and the implications of this is described in post linked to above.
> > > >
> > > > It would be great for folks doing 1090ES Out installs to share their experiences. Here, or contact me directly,
> > > >
> > > > I am happy to try to answer questions.
> > > >
> > > > I'm also planning to give a few talks on ADS-B (and FLARM and Transponders) over the next few months, certainly on the West Coast, details later.
> > > >
> > > > Darryl
> >
> > A big issue for me is that installing a TN72 and, if necessary, an appropriate transponder will not make you ADS-B Out compliant; it only provides compliance with TABS. TABS gives you the ability to transmit position data to ATC and other aircraft, which is a good thing. But it will not give you access to control zones requiring ADS-B Out, basically any control zone requiring Mode C now. To comply with ADS-B Out you would need the TN70, which is a much larger (and more expensive) unit than the TN72. I don't mind the cost, but the size is a killer. I am inclined to wait and see if the FAA allows TABS aircraft into the ADS-B zones in two years. Of course, if you never intend to fly in these areas you don't care. Personally the only areas of any interest to me is Reno and Spokane.
> >
> > Tom

I found this in Trig's TN72 brochure:

The TN72 is great for glider pilots to powered pilots. Certified
aircraft can use the TN72 as an ADS-B position source where
equipage is voluntary. As an example, in North America pilots
who wish to trigger a full traffic information service on ADS-B
In equipment can use the TN72 outside of designated ADS-B
airspace.

The key phrase is "where equipage is voluntary."
Tom

[Darryl Ramm]

I have no idea what point you are trying to make or what you are responding to. What information in my original link is not clear or in accurate and why?

[2G]

On Monday, January 8, 2018 at 5:51:42 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> I have no idea what point you are trying to make or what you are responding to. What information in my original link is not clear or in accurate and why?

You wrote that I could not put a TN72 into my certified glider. That is incorrect per this brochure.
Tom

[[email protected]]

On Monday, January 8, 2018 at 8:55:31 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> On Monday, January 8, 2018 at 5:51:42 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > I have no idea what point you are trying to make or what you are responding to. What information in my original link is not clear or in accurate and why?
>
> You wrote that I could not put a TN72 into my certified glider. That is incorrect per this brochure.
> Tom

Darryl's post doesn't say such a thing - not even close.

He does say (selected extract below)

1. All gliders can install a TT21 or TT22 transponder with a TN72 to be used as a "TABS" (Traffic Awareness Beacon System) device.....These installations cannot be used to comply with 2020 ADS-B Out mandates...but is visible to PowerFLARM 1090ES In... ....likely over many tens of miles, is visible to ATC ....is visible to certified panel mount ADS-B In traffic systems, and will make the aircraft an ADS-R or TIS-B client for ADS-B ground services (but which PowerFLARM can't receive).

2. Certified gliders that want to meet the 2020 ADS-B Out mandate can't use a TN-72 for that....They would require a Trig TN-70 actual TSO-C145c GPS source....

Reads petty clear to me and is consistent with the quoted text from Trig.

So yes, you can put a TN72 into your certified glider but you still cannot fly into ADSB designated airspace, only in areas where equipage is voluntary [for a glider].

David