Cessna Citation N238JP Runway Incursion at KUDD

[[email protected]]

A snotty Citation driver tries to blame me for HIS runway incursion during my takeoff. Unfortunately, I turned on the cam just after making my call and crossing the runway hold line to take the active (you can see my fingers on the cam in the opening frames). He claims that I never made a call, but later admits that he didn't hear my call--which is entirely different. The Phenom Jet who landed just before our departure (visible eastbound on the taxiway at 00:43) heard and acknowledged one of my three calls, so I don't know why the Citation couldn't hear me. Note how quick the Citation driver is to publicly assign blame to me. He then calls the FBO like a butt-hurt girl to wrongly report me.

I'd normally just let this whole thing slide, but this guy was such a jerk and clearly wants to make a big deal of it, so I decided to post it to YouTube. His boss will be getting a detailed email detailing his dangerous attitude and a YouTube link as soon as I trace the N number.

https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=Yw--2gDjaV0

[Dave Nadler]

On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 8:04:32 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> A snotty ...
> https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=Yw--2gDjaV0

Bad link...

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 5:07:36 PM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 8:04:32 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > A snotty ...
> > https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=Yw--2gDjaV0
>
> Bad link...

Sorry bout that....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw--2gDjaV0

[Tom Kelley #711]

On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 6:09:30 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 5:07:36 PM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 8:04:32 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > > A snotty ...
> > > https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=Yw--2gDjaV0
> >
> > Bad link...
>
> Sorry bout that....
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw--2gDjaV0

That's OK, I enjoyed watching me again. Best for the New Year!

Best. Tom #711.

[Tom Kelley #711]

On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 6:07:36 PM UTC-7, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 8:04:32 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > A snotty ...
> > https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=Yw--2gDjaV0
>
> Bad link...

No, no, no....it's a great link!

[Frank Whiteley]

On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 6:04:32 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> A snotty Citation driver tries to blame me for HIS runway incursion during my takeoff. Unfortunately, I turned on the cam just after making my call and crossing the runway hold line to take the active (you can see my fingers on the cam in the opening frames). He claims that I never made a call, but later admits that he didn't hear my call--which is entirely different. The Phenom Jet who landed just before our departure (visible eastbound on the taxiway at 00:43) heard and acknowledged one of my three calls, so I don't know why the Citation couldn't hear me. Note how quick the Citation driver is to publicly assign blame to me. He then calls the FBO like a butt-hurt girl to wrongly report me.
>
> I'd normally just let this whole thing slide, but this guy was such a jerk and clearly wants to make a big deal of it, so I decided to post it to YouTube. His boss will be getting a detailed email detailing his dangerous attitude and a YouTube link as soon as I trace the N number.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=Yw--2gDjaV0

File an ASRS. Ask the airport manager for frequency recordings.

[[email protected]]

Could it be that your radio was not transmitting at the moment?

Could it be that the Citation’s radio was not receiving at the moment?

Could it be that radios sometimes malfunction?


Why would you not abort the takeoff when you hear on the radio that a citation jet is departing opposite direction on the same runway???

0:28 into the video Citation announces departing

You continue to takeoff and at 0:33 you are airborne.

Be careful, the FAA might revoke your license after watching this video. Your action to continue the takeoff would be considered careless and wreckless. Nor did you try to turn away from the runway, you tracked the centerline directly towards the Citation.

I would not go after that pilots career. Instead I would delete your video to protect your license.

[[email protected]]

Frank's suggestion is good, file an ASRS and try to get any recordings from the airport. N238JP may likely have a cockpit recorder.

Did N238JP taxi onto the runway or simply make a call?
Looks like in the video he is still on the taxiway.

Did you see the TWO powered aircraft at the other end of the runway?
If you saw them, why did YOU decide to use RWY10 when two other pilots were planning to use RWY28?

If the FAA interviews the Unicom operator and the pilot of N8217G in position behind N238JP, will they say they heard your call or support N238JP?

The Citation pilot did not sound "snotty" to me, but rather reacted as many pilots might react. Since N238JP was on IFR flight plan, he may well have been getting an IFR release from ATC when you made your call.

As you indicate, you were working your camera prior to takeoff, so you have no evidence of making the call. Working your camera between making your call and the takeoff does not look good for your side, nor do the conversations with your passenger. Both items indicate a lack of a sterile cockpit.

Which runway did N441CC use 15 minutes before and N7999K use 15 minutes later?
Taking off opposite direction to other traffic and having a lack of respect for other aircraft and pilots, can give those of us in the soaring community a bad reputation.

[[email protected]]

Well P2, I have had my encounters with idiot and arrogant twin and jet jockeys. But, getting the feds involved can become a really Really bad bag of worms. As much as you feel justified making a report, there are ambiguities on the video as others have noted that open you up to problems. I would be carefull here. I have dealt with incidents like this directly when I could get right in the face of the offending idiot and speak my piece. But when not able to do that, I have chosen to just lay low and move on.
Dan

[Roy B.]

The decision to "go public" with these sorts of disputes rarely ends well for anybody. It's a shame that the airport manager didn't just sit everybody down for coffee and a teaching moment . . .
ROY

[George Haeh]

I didn't see a windsock, nor do we have what was said on the radio during
the
five minutes prior. With a runway that long the jets can accept a minor
tailwind
and save bucks on fuel.

It's easy for radio transmissions to get stepped on. You and the Citation
may
well have been transmitting at the same time. I don't know of any unicom
operators who keep a tape.

Unless a departure frequency is available, IFR departures from an
uncontrolled
field are subject to a void time. A mile long taxi could put you pass the
void time
and necessitate another phone call to obtain another clearance.

If I heard somebody announcing entering an opposite or intersecting runway,
I'd
be on the radio pronto to say I'm rolling rwy xx at yy knots.

Just because a radio call was made does not magically ensure everybody
heard
it.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

I'm glad nothing got bent (other than pride/attitudes), all are around to discuss/argue.

/thread, before the FAA gets involved........

[Frank Whiteley]

On Monday, January 1, 2018 at 2:30:06 PM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
> I didn't see a windsock, nor do we have what was said on the radio during
> the
> five minutes prior. With a runway that long the jets can accept a minor
> tailwind
> and save bucks on fuel.
>
> It's easy for radio transmissions to get stepped on. You and the Citation
> may
> well have been transmitting at the same time. I don't know of any unicom
> operators who keep a tape.
>
> Unless a departure frequency is available, IFR departures from an
> uncontrolled
> field are subject to a void time. A mile long taxi could put you pass the
> void time
> and necessitate another phone call to obtain another clearance.
>
> If I heard somebody announcing entering an opposite or intersecting runway,
> I'd
> be on the radio pronto to say I'm rolling rwy xx at yy knots.
>
> Just because a radio call was made does not magically ensure everybody
> heard
> it.

Last time I checked, my local city/county airport was recording CTAF/Unicom and have released content to local news media when incidents/accidents occurred.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 5:04:32 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> A snotty Citation driver tries to blame me for HIS runway incursion during my takeoff. Unfortunately, I turned on the cam just after making my call and crossing the runway hold line to take the active (you can see my fingers on the cam in the opening frames). He claims that I never made a call, but later admits that he didn't hear my call--which is entirely different. The Phenom Jet who landed just before our departure (visible eastbound on the taxiway at 00:43) heard and acknowledged one of my three calls, so I don't know why the Citation couldn't hear me. Note how quick the Citation driver is to publicly assign blame to me. He then calls the FBO like a butt-hurt girl to wrongly report me.
>
> I'd normally just let this whole thing slide, but this guy was such a jerk and clearly wants to make a big deal of it, so I decided to post it to YouTube. His boss will be getting a detailed email detailing his dangerous attitude and a YouTube link as soon as I trace the N number.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=Yw--2gDjaV0

Some more info:

My decision to take off on 10 was based on wind direction which was 3-4kts out of the east. The private/charter jets at KUDD generally ignore the wind until it gets up over about 10kts, preferring to take off and land in whatever direction is most convenient and economical for them. My Ximango is only 80hp, and while not particularly squirrely for a taildragger, it can be hard to get it back once you get out of shape; therefore I prefer to take off into the wind.

KUDD is a privately owned public-use airport, and unicom is not recorded; however, on checking with them today, they confirm that I did make my call as is my habit. Actually, I called once to inform all of taxiing to 10, again to coordinate with the Phenom Jet on final for 10 ("I'll hold till you're clear, then take 10 for departure.") and a third time just before departure. Ample opportunity for everyone concerned to know what I was doing...

The Citation had been holding in the run up area of 28 for about 15 minutes and had announced his intention to "be there for a while." My guess is that he was talking to clearance delivery and/or programming his nav, which could have prevented him from registering my call--even if his ears heard it, his brain might not have! Not sure why he chose to do his housekeeping at runway 28 instead of on the ramp 500 feet away... the little Cessna behind him sure was patient!

I can think of lots of reasons that radio communications might fail: volume down, squelch up too high, wrong frequency, stepped on, mic to far from lips, PTT button not fully depressed, mic and/or earphone jack not fully plugged in, audio panel miss set, and the rest of you can probably add many more possibilities to the list. I feel that it is important to note that radio comms, while a boon to safety, do not relieve any pilot of his/her duty to maintain vigilance to see and avoid others--ever! I made my call AND cleared the runway visually before starting my roll.

With regards to the actual incursion, I don't think his nose ever actually crossed the runway edge--but it was darn close! The distance from the hold-short line to the runway is about 90 feet. He was certainly completely beyond the hold short line, which at a tower-controlled airport would have for sure gotten him into hot water with ATC/FAA.

Some of you have wondered why I didn't abort my takeoff. To be absolutely honest with you, it took me a few moments to realize what was happening, and by the time I did, I was in the air and could clearly see the Citation. He completed his call at 0:25 (just after my tail came up),and we were off the ground at 0:30. It seems like forever from the comfort of your easy chair, but it happens pretty fast in real life.

My beef with the Citation pilot is not that we had a potentially dangerous encounter. After all, its aviation and things DO happen despite our best efforts. My beef with him is the rapidity and absolute certainty of his judgement that it was all the other guy's (my) fault, and his petty and unproductive call to unicom. As I'm based out of KUDD, I'm jealous of my reputation there as a safe and considerate pilot.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 8:04:32 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> A snotty Citation driver tries to blame me for HIS runway incursion during my takeoff. Unfortunately, I turned on the cam just after making my call and crossing the runway hold line to take the active (you can see my fingers on the cam in the opening frames). He claims that I never made a call, but later admits that he didn't hear my call--which is entirely different. The Phenom Jet who landed just before our departure (visible eastbound on the taxiway at 00:43) heard and acknowledged one of my three calls, so I don't know why the Citation couldn't hear me. Note how quick the Citation driver is to publicly assign blame to me. He then calls the FBO like a butt-hurt girl to wrongly report me.
>
> I'd normally just let this whole thing slide, but this guy was such a jerk and clearly wants to make a big deal of it, so I decided to post it to YouTube. His boss will be getting a detailed email detailing his dangerous attitude and a YouTube link as soon as I trace the N number.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=Yw--2gDjaV0

I really do not understand why such a post is here on this forum? Seems to me that you have grossly over estimated your reputation. Maybe you are just a legend in your own mind! There is nothing to gain by posting such events or so called events. Bob

[glidergeek]

Sounds both are making a big deal over not much of a big deal.