GP Gliders

[[email protected]]

Is there any update on GP Gliders USA? Last news is Tim McAllister decided to close GP Gliders North America.

[JS[_5_]]

On Tuesday, January 2, 2018 at 4:25:54 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> Is there any update on GP Gliders USA? Last news is Tim McAllister decided to close GP Gliders North America.

That's unfortunate.
Would have been nice to hear this directly from Tim instead of what seems to be rumo(u)rs.com, especially from some unknown person who doesn't sign a name.
The announcement alluded to is here.
https://www.gpglidersusa.com/
Jim

[Tony[_5_]]

subscribers to Tim's GP email list got an announcement from him.

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 03:17 03 January 2018, JS wrote:
>On Tuesday, January 2, 2018 at 4:25:54 PM UTC-8,
wrote:
>> Is there any update on GP Gliders USA? Last news is Tim McAllister
>decided to close GP Gliders North America.
>
>That's unfortunate.
>Would have been nice to hear this directly from Tim instead of what
seems
>to be rumo(u)rs.com, especially from some unknown person who
doesn't sign a
>name.
>The announcement alluded to is here.
>https://www.gpglidersusa.com/
>Jim
>

Hardly surprising when FAI are constantly moving goal posts with the
class that the manufacturer are aiming at. The GP14 would not have
been legal in 13.5m class, except if flown by a lightweight jockey if FAI
kept the proposed 35kg/m wingloading limit and self launch capability. .
Perhaps why the FAI move to 15m - give the GP15 Jetta a chance at
some sales? Just another 'rich boys' class now though and debatable
wether it is 'gliding/soaring'.

[[email protected]]

Been a mess for years. I remember the mess when they changed the standard class years ago. But once they standardized things into the old standard class, 15 meter, and open, It would have been just fine in absorbing all of the 18 and longer winged ships, as well as keep an aiming point for manufacturers. I know for a period of about 25 years, the manufacturers had a good run of "stabilized class rules" in order to develop and produced new ships.

I really thought 13.5 would catch on for race folks with limited budgets, but it looks like it has morphed into another "whoever has the most money" wins class.

[Mike C]

On Wednesday, January 3, 2018 at 12:07:49 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Been a mess for years. I remember the mess when they changed the standard class years ago. But once they standardized things into the old standard class, 15 meter, and open, It would have been just fine in absorbing all of the 18 and longer winged ships, as well as keep an aiming point for manufacturers. I know for a period of about 25 years, the manufacturers had a good run of "stabilized class rules" in order to develop and produced new ships.
>
> I really thought 13.5 would catch on for race folks with limited budgets, but it looks like it has morphed into another "whoever has the most money" wins class.

Money has always been a limiting factor in the growth of soaring, and as cost keeps edging more and more towards exotic high price gliders soaring will continue to loose more future participants than it will gain.

One bright spot is that we have the Club Class that is still somewhat fair, although some think that ASW27's and similar should be included for handicapped racing.

Mike

[[email protected]]

Yes I hear you Mike. As for the club class, I like the concept but the handicapping definitely needs some tweeking. For example, I know some tremendous contest experienced libelle drivers, but the way the handicap works, the more modern ships always score higher. That tells me something is amiss.

[Paul T[_4_]]

Club Class should be 'FAI definition' club class but the USA always
seems to go its own perverted little way for whatever reasons.However
FAI are now trying there best to make this more expensive to
participate in by changing the handicaps to make newer - read more
expensive ships have a competitive edge. The change in handicaps they
recently brought in and the anomaly's were so ridiculous you had to
laugh. The FAI are helping to slowly kill off the sport along with all the

'regulators' out there. World class was a good concept - maybe the
wrong choice of glider - if it had been an ASW19B/LS4/Discus 1 one
design class- probably be the most popular class now.

[[email protected]]

I hear ya there Paul. That's why I fly with the 1-26 guys. Sure I would like to race with something more forgiving L/D wise, but I am not willing to put up with all the b.s. that "modern" racing entails. The 1-26 assoc has always been common sense based, minimalistic in regards to rules and eminently affordable. Not to mention they are a really great bunch of guys. Super competative and competent. But totally willing to help out newcomers with any tricks to make these little machines or their pilots perform better.

[[email protected]]

I was hoping the 13.5 meter class was going to be this way, but it has gone exactly like tge other classes.

[Tony[_5_]]

Dan, I found the same camaraderie amongst the pilots at the 13.5m WGCs, especially the recent one in Hungary.

[[email protected]]

Hi Tony,
I sure hope the class catches on. Only problem being the ships are now pretty pricey. And if the whole class is going to have to be motorized, that will in essence financially exclude the great majority of us guys. I just feel bad about not having a true "one-design" class of racing. They picked the wrong machine. I think if they had picked the Russia AC series, it might have caught on here in the states, as that machine performs pretty good and was definitely affordable.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 3:01:36 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Hi Tony,
> I sure hope the class catches on. Only problem being the ships are now pretty pricey. And if the whole class is going to have to be motorized, that will in essence financially exclude the great majority of us guys. I just feel bad about not having a true "one-design" class of racing. They picked the wrong machine. I think if they had picked the Russia AC series, it might have caught on here in the states, as that machine performs pretty good and was definitely affordable.

The PW-5 World class gliders that came to the US were mostly not bought by people who wanted them as one design class competition machines. Most that bought them did so because they were inexpensive, light to assemble, and easy to fly. All good attributes that make them good to own and fly. Kind of a modern 1-26.
Want a one deign class today with plenty of ships in the fleet that meet the above criteria? Start a Std Libelle class.
Just Musing
UH

[[email protected]]

Hi UH, actually, a standard libelle class could probably work lol.

I guess the bigger unstated problem is the vast majority of fliers are not really interested in going anywhere xc or even fewer have a passion for racing. At my club here we have three 201's, and a 301. None of the guys fly more than a couple miles away from home even on a booming day.
My last club had a nice astir 102, and guys had a mini nimbus and a LS-1. None of these three ships has put up a xc flight in ages. I guess the guys are happy to just float around at the top of the thermals. To me, that just breeds bad habits lol. But to each their own is how it goes.

[Mike C]

On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 12:03:04 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> I was hoping the 13.5 meter class was going to be this way, but it has gone exactly like the other classes.

Club class should be first generation type Std. Class sailplanes.

Std. Libelle
ASW 15
LS 1
Std. Cirrus
15 meter Phoebus A/B
STD. Jantar 1/2
Astir CS


Plenty of affordable examples available and the performance is close enough to handicap effectively.

Still a dreamer.

Mike

[Kiwi User]

On Thu, 04 Jan 2018 13:43:19 -0800, Mike C wrote:

> On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 12:03:04 PM UTC-7,
> wrote:
>> I was hoping the 13.5 meter class was going to be this way, but it has
>> gone exactly like the other classes.
>
> Club class should be first generation type Std. Class sailplanes.
>
> Std. Libelle ASW 15 LS 1 Std. Cirrus 15 meter Phoebus A/B STD. Jantar
> 1/2 Astir CS
>
>
> Plenty of affordable examples available and the performance is close
> enough to handicap effectively.
>
And equally important: a small enough performance spread to keep tasking
from driving the task-setter to drink.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie
| dot org

[Michael Opitz]

At 21:43 04 January 2018, Mike C wrote:
>On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 12:03:04 PM UTC-7,
wrote:
>> I was hoping the 13.5 meter class was going to be this way, but
it has
>gone exactly like the other classes.
>
>Club class should be first generation type Std. Class sailplanes.
>
>Std. Libelle
>ASW 15
>LS 1
>Std. Cirrus
>15 meter Phoebus A/B
>STD. Jantar 1/2
>Astir CS
>
>
>Plenty of affordable examples available and the performance is
close enough
>to handicap effectively.
>
>Still a dreamer.
>
>Mike
>


The Ka.6 is the first generation of Standard Class gliders. Those
that you mention are second generation, (but the first glass
ones...) Heinz Huth of Germany won two WGCs in STD Class in
a Ka.6CR in 1960 and 1963.

RO

[[email protected]]

> Want a one deign class today with plenty of ships in the fleet that meet the above criteria? Start a Std Libelle class.
> Just Musing
> UH

Hmmmm. I like it.

- Lots of gliders (600 manufactured, approx. 95 of which show up in the FAA registry in the U.S.)
- Reasonably inexpensive
- In good repair (the gel coat on 201s seems to last a looooong time)
- Still supported (by Streinfeneder)
- Little to no performance difference across versions (the later ones have water, top-surface-only dive brakes, foam core wings, and a bigger horizontal stab but I never saw any difference in performance, nor did the low and high canopies seem to matter). The fillets, winglets, etc., that we see on European Club Class 201s haven't showed up much here.
- A joy to fly
- Light and easy to assemble (my first solo-rigging experiments)
- Performance sufficient that pilots won't feel like they're taking an alarming step down
- Performance sufficient that owners will be happy flying them outside of contests

Admittedly I'm biased. I flew a 201 competitively for seven years and loved every minute of it. I was not always so happy flying a 1-26 before that; I'm not Ron Schwartz and just found it too difficult to stay airborne at times. I feel like I learned how to fly fast more quickly once I hopped into the 201. In it, a mistake meant I was slow. In the 1-26, a mistake put me on the ground, usually for the rest of the day.

I've owned my ASW 24 for 26 years and still love it. But if I were looking for a more economic class and there were a groundswell of interest in a Libelle 201 one-design class that drew participation from some top pilots, I would be tempted.

The latter factor is important. Sometimes our knee-jerk reaction to these classes (e.g., Club) is to restrict them to pilots who aren't already established in the higher ranks. But having the top pilots participate helps provide legitimacy. And not being able to fly and measure myself against them would be a deal breaker for me.

Chip Bearden

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, January 2, 2018 at 7:25:54 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Is there any update on GP Gliders USA? Last news is Tim McAllister decided to close GP Gliders North America.

I think GP was also coming out with a 15 meter ship, the GP 15 JETA. I was wondering if they would be represented at the SSA convention this year. The mast mounted electric folding prop arrangement looks very interesting and might reduce some of the problems seen with water cooled engines and long drive belts.
Dave

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, 6 January 2018 08:52:53 UTC+11, wrote:
> > Want a one deign class today with plenty of ships in the fleet that meet the above criteria? Start a Std Libelle class.
> > Just Musing
> > UH
>
> Hmmmm. I like it.
>
> - Lots of gliders (600 manufactured, approx. 95 of which show up in the FAA registry in the U.S.)
> - Reasonably inexpensive
> - In good repair (the gel coat on 201s seems to last a looooong time)
> - Still supported (by Streinfeneder)
> - Little to no performance difference across versions (the later ones have water, top-surface-only dive brakes, foam core wings, and a bigger horizontal stab but I never saw any difference in performance, nor did the low and high canopies seem to matter). The fillets, winglets, etc., that we see on European Club Class 201s haven't showed up much here.
> - A joy to fly
> - Light and easy to assemble (my first solo-rigging experiments)
> - Performance sufficient that pilots won't feel like they're taking an alarming step down
> - Performance sufficient that owners will be happy flying them outside of contests
>
> Admittedly I'm biased. I flew a 201 competitively for seven years and loved every minute of it. I was not always so happy flying a 1-26 before that; I'm not Ron Schwartz and just found it too difficult to stay airborne at times. I feel like I learned how to fly fast more quickly once I hopped into the 201. In it, a mistake meant I was slow. In the 1-26, a mistake put me on the ground, usually for the rest of the day.
>
> I've owned my ASW 24 for 26 years and still love it. But if I were looking for a more economic class and there were a groundswell of interest in a Libelle 201 one-design class that drew participation from some top pilots, I would be tempted.
>
> The latter factor is important. Sometimes our knee-jerk reaction to these classes (e.g., Club) is to restrict them to pilots who aren't already established in the higher ranks. But having the top pilots participate helps provide legitimacy. And not being able to fly and measure myself against them would be a deal breaker for me.
>
> Chip Bearden

The Formula 1.0 GP in Oz which just finished was just about that. Not a glider on the grid worth more than about US$10K. 11 Libelles (four with winglets, some seriously pimped). Half a dozen Standard Cirri. The winner had an LS-1f. Jantar's attracted the hot pilots but skill seemed to be important too. The style leader was an Open Cirrus. The quiet achiever was a DG-100. My young friend who borrowed a Libelle was stoked by having the second highest speed on the last day with 104.8kph, beaten only by another Libelle flown by a guy called Streifeneder.

Very competitive plus kids and families. The best comp for a long time. Made Worlds seem dull.

GC

GC

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Saturday, January 6, 2018 at 4:46:24 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Saturday, 6 January 2018 08:52:53 UTC+11, wrote:
> > > Want a one deign class today with plenty of ships in the fleet that meet the above criteria? Start a Std Libelle class.
> > > Just Musing
> > > UH
> >
> > Hmmmm. I like it.
> >
> > - Lots of gliders (600 manufactured, approx. 95 of which show up in the FAA registry in the U.S.)
> > - Reasonably inexpensive
> > - In good repair (the gel coat on 201s seems to last a looooong time)
> > - Still supported (by Streinfeneder)
> > - Little to no performance difference across versions (the later ones have water, top-surface-only dive brakes, foam core wings, and a bigger horizontal stab but I never saw any difference in performance, nor did the low and high canopies seem to matter). The fillets, winglets, etc., that we see on European Club Class 201s haven't showed up much here.
> > - A joy to fly
> > - Light and easy to assemble (my first solo-rigging experiments)
> > - Performance sufficient that pilots won't feel like they're taking an alarming step down
> > - Performance sufficient that owners will be happy flying them outside of contests
> >
> > Admittedly I'm biased. I flew a 201 competitively for seven years and loved every minute of it. I was not always so happy flying a 1-26 before that; I'm not Ron Schwartz and just found it too difficult to stay airborne at times. I feel like I learned how to fly fast more quickly once I hopped into the 201. In it, a mistake meant I was slow. In the 1-26, a mistake put me on the ground, usually for the rest of the day.
> >
> > I've owned my ASW 24 for 26 years and still love it. But if I were looking for a more economic class and there were a groundswell of interest in a Libelle 201 one-design class that drew participation from some top pilots, I would be tempted.
> >
> > The latter factor is important. Sometimes our knee-jerk reaction to these classes (e.g., Club) is to restrict them to pilots who aren't already established in the higher ranks. But having the top pilots participate helps provide legitimacy. And not being able to fly and measure myself against them would be a deal breaker for me.
> >
> > Chip Bearden
>
> The Formula 1.0 GP in Oz which just finished was just about that. Not a glider on the grid worth more than about US$10K. 11 Libelles (four with winglets, some seriously pimped). Half a dozen Standard Cirri. The winner had an LS-1f. Jantar's attracted the hot pilots but skill seemed to be important too. The style leader was an Open Cirrus. The quiet achiever was a DG-100. My young friend who borrowed a Libelle was stoked by having the second highest speed on the last day with 104.8kph, beaten only by another Libelle flown by a guy called Streifeneder.
>
> Very competitive plus kids and families. The best comp for a long time. Made Worlds seem dull.
>
> GC
>
> GC

Great concept!

[S9]

On Friday, January 5, 2018 at 3:57:55 PM UTC-6, wrote:
..... I was wondering if they would be represented at the SSA convention this year. .....
> Dave

I asked - (per Jerry)

We're not really in a hurry to appoint new US representative, we need to get this decision right, it has long term implications.

Unfortunately, this situation has a major impact on our US activities for the time being, therefore I doubt we'll be able to show up at SSA convention, which is very close now.

Best regards,

Jerzy Peszke


Stephen S9

[S9]

On Friday, January 5, 2018 at 3:57:55 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 2, 2018 at 7:25:54 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > Is there any update on GP Gliders USA? ..... I was wondering if they would be represented at the SSA convention this year. .....
> Dave

On Friday, January 5, 2018 at 3:57:55 PM UTC-6, wrote:
..... I was wondering if they would be represented at the SSA convention this year. .....
> Dave

I asked - (per Jerzy)

We're not really in a hurry to appoint new US representative, we need to get this decision right, it has long term implications.

Unfortunately, this situation has a major impact on our US activities for the time being, therefore I doubt we'll be able to show up at SSA convention, which is very close now.

Best regards,

Jerzy Peszke


Stephen S9