Restoring an Old Spam Can -- To Strip or Not to Strip

[jls]

What's the weight penalty for not stripping an old 172, just painting over
the old paint, after sanding it first, of course. I'm new at this but
willing to make a go of it. I'd like to use a high-gloss polyurethane and
some bright colors. TIA for your advice. I've been receiving a lot of
priceless advice in this forum lately, and in a yahoogroups forum. For
which I am grateful.

BTW, the top done on the O-300 has been wonderful. Millenium cylinders,
rocker arms rebuilt. The engine has around 8 hours and hasn't even used
any oil. I am impressed. The rings are seated now and she has all kinds
of power. Well, at least for an O-300. After flying a Taylorcraft the
flaps are fun too. And so is flying at night.

[Matthew P. Cummings]

On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:58:52 -0400, jls wrote:

> What's the weight penalty for not stripping an old 172, just painting over
> the old paint, after sanding it first, of course. I'm new at this but
> willing to make a go of it. I'd like to use a high-gloss polyurethane and

It depends on what paint you use, but I'd guess 10 - 15 lbs would be added
to the plane.

What you're proposing to do is why I don't like to buy planes that have
been repainted. Weight is weight and someday you'll want that extra
amount back and it will cost a lot of money to strip and refinish again.

So, if you're doing it yourself take some extra time and do it right,
you'll be pleased at the results.

[Hatz Lyman C]

Once you see what the Poly paint is going to cost you, the question becomes, do
you really want to put that much money over old paint. Best to start with bare
metal. IMHO.

Lyman

[Nathan Young]

On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:58:52 -0400, " jls" >
wrote:

>What's the weight penalty for not stripping an old 172, just painting over
>the old paint, after sanding it first, of course. I'm new at this but
>willing to make a go of it. I'd like to use a high-gloss polyurethane and
>some bright colors. TIA for your advice. I've been receiving a lot of
>priceless advice in this forum lately, and in a yahoogroups forum. For
>which I am grateful.


From a standpoint - if you are going to paint the plane, it really
should be stripped first. There can be corrosion under the existing
paint that you will not see until it bubbles up the paint.

As a side note, if you try to sell your plane in the next few years,
anyone buying should be asking how the paintjob was completed, and if
you have proof (pictures/video) to verify it was correctly stripped,
etched, alodined, primed, etc...

[Snowbird]

"Matthew P. Cummings" > wrote in message et>...
> On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:58:52 -0400, jls wrote:
> > What's the weight penalty for not stripping an old 172, just painting over
> > the old paint, after sanding it first, of course. I'm new at this but
> > willing to make a go of it. I'd like to use a high-gloss polyurethane and

> It depends on what paint you use, but I'd guess 10 - 15 lbs would be added
> to the plane.

Fact: the W&B done after a 2nd coat was added to our plane, is 30 lbs
more. Our plane probably has less painted surface area than a C172
(same max gross weight, I think the wings are shorter, more window area).
We would welcome having that 30 lbs back, believe me.

And of course, if there are any flaws in the underlying finish where
it is not simply weathered, but is not adhering properly or has a lot
of silicon impregnated through it from extensive use of silicon-based
waxes and polishes, those flaws will reduce the life of the 2nd coat.

FWIW,
Sydney

[Joe Vasher]

" jls" > wrote in message >...
> What's the weight penalty for not stripping an old 172, just painting over
> the old paint, after sanding it first, of course. I'm new at this but
> willing to make a go of it. I'd like to use a high-gloss polyurethane and
> some bright colors. TIA for your advice. I've been receiving a lot of
> priceless advice in this forum lately, and in a yahoogroups forum. For
> which I am grateful.
>
> BTW, the top done on the O-300 has been wonderful. Millenium cylinders,
> rocker arms rebuilt. The engine has around 8 hours and hasn't even used
> any oil. I am impressed. The rings are seated now and she has all kinds
> of power. Well, at least for an O-300. After flying a Taylorcraft the
> flaps are fun too. And so is flying at night.

Don't DO THAT! It works out to more like 30 pounds, Just try to
wrangle a good ice stripper(its not to messing the ice particles melts
when your done, and you just sweep up the paint after a day or so.
from someone using that to remove the paint. It will cost you a few
hundred more (4 - 5)

[bryan chaisone]

(Joe Vasher) wrote in message
> Don't DO THAT! It works out to more like 30 pounds, Just try to
> wrangle a good ice stripper(its not to messing the ice particles melts
> when your done, and you just sweep up the paint after a day or so.
> from someone using that to remove the paint. It will cost you a few
> hundred more (4 - 5)


Who makes this ice stripper? Where can I learn more?

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

[bryan chaisone]

Anyone know what the going rate for a paint job is these days? For
argument sake, white only, no trims.

aircraft paint over full strip down & paint
--------------------------------------------------------------
c150/2 ? ?
c172 ? ?
mooney ? ?
cherokee ? ?
other low wings ? ?

Just trying to see if I might get into this business. Always wanted
to be in the aviation business. Thought painting might be the one w/
the least liability.

Thanks,
Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

[Pete Schaefer]

Probably a pretty safe bet. However, a friend of a friend of a friend took
his airplane to some knucklehead auto repair types who had no experience
with airplanes. They offered such a good deal! "Sure we can do an
airplane....just like doing a car!" They thought it was the cool thing to
just sand the airplane down to bare metal. They did him the added favor of
making all the rivet heads flush. Complete disaster.

So, as long as you don't do anything completely bone-headed like that.....

"bryan chaisone" > wrote in message
om...
> Thought painting might be the one w/ the least liability.

[Craig]

(bryan chaisone) wrote in message >...

>
> Just trying to see if I might get into this business. Always wanted
> to be in the aviation business. Thought painting might be the one w/
> the least liability.
>

Least liability???? You have to be joking....Not only do you have to
deal with the FAA, but also the EPA and any local EPA type agency. For
a decent sized facility, you will be pushing a half million bucks in
the facility and the vapor recover system as well as the wastewater
trap and treatment system and HAZMAT control before you spray the
first drop of paint. Pretty much gone are the days of renting a large
hangar and setting up shop on the cheap.

At $6K for stripping and painting a 152, it will take a heck of a lot
of paint jobs to cover the monthly cost on a facility.

Craig C.

[Blueskies]

"Craig" > wrote in message m...
> (bryan chaisone) wrote in message >...
>
> >
> > Just trying to see if I might get into this business. Always wanted
> > to be in the aviation business. Thought painting might be the one w/
> > the least liability.
> >
>
> Least liability???? You have to be joking....Not only do you have to
> deal with the FAA, but also the EPA and any local EPA type agency. For
> a decent sized facility, you will be pushing a half million bucks in
> the facility and the vapor recover system as well as the wastewater
> trap and treatment system and HAZMAT control before you spray the
> first drop of paint. Pretty much gone are the days of renting a large
> hangar and setting up shop on the cheap.
>
> At $6K for stripping and painting a 152, it will take a heck of a lot
> of paint jobs to cover the monthly cost on a facility.
>
> Craig C.
>

Mexico?

[bryan chaisone]

Thanks Craig, thanks a lot. Another dream shot down. LOL. These
car-painting facilities are doing it with EPA's approval. They are a
dime a dozen. I'm sure things can be worked out. I am thinking that,
as Pete have said above; the preparation for airplane is different.
Structural integrity has to be maintained. There is also the weight
issue with airplanes. Other than those two, they should be the same.
A lot less body filler? A lot less paint build-up? Approval by local
and federal authorities and facility owner that you are renting from?
What else am I missing? The prep area and the paint booth need to be
a lot bigger? Might even paint motor homes, trucks and cars on the
side too?

I have the dream, the will power, and the love of aviation. That last
one is what will make this an enjoyable career. I believe that you
will be happier and live longer if you do what you love. Now all I
need is start up money.

Craig, I have read many of your posts, I respect your opinions. How
can I make this happen? Hoe can I make this dream come true?

Anyone have a suggestion?

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone


(Craig) wrote in message >...
> (bryan chaisone) wrote in message >...
>
> >
> > Just trying to see if I might get into this business. Always wanted
> > to be in the aviation business. Thought painting might be the one w/
> > the least liability.
> >
>
> Least liability???? You have to be joking....Not only do you have to
> deal with the FAA, but also the EPA and any local EPA type agency. For
> a decent sized facility, you will be pushing a half million bucks in
> the facility and the vapor recover system as well as the wastewater
> trap and treatment system and HAZMAT control before you spray the
> first drop of paint. Pretty much gone are the days of renting a large
> hangar and setting up shop on the cheap.
>
> At $6K for stripping and painting a 152, it will take a heck of a lot
> of paint jobs to cover the monthly cost on a facility.
>
> Craig C.
>

[bryan chaisone]

"Pete Schaefer" > wrote in message news:<zObKc.97088$JR4.65570@attbi_s54>...
> They did him the added favor of making all the rivet heads flush.
> Complete disaster.
>

Love that one, LOL. That didn't really happen did it? Ha, ha, ha.

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

[bryan chaisone]

I really want to do this. Anyone know of a good paint shop that I
might be able to work at for cheap and learn the trade as well?

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

(Craig) wrote in message >...
> (bryan chaisone) wrote in message >...
>
> >
> > Just trying to see if I might get into this business. Always wanted
> > to be in the aviation business. Thought painting might be the one w/
> > the least liability.
> >
>
> Least liability???? You have to be joking....Not only do you have to
> deal with the FAA, but also the EPA and any local EPA type agency. For
> a decent sized facility, you will be pushing a half million bucks in
> the facility and the vapor recover system as well as the wastewater
> trap and treatment system and HAZMAT control before you spray the
> first drop of paint. Pretty much gone are the days of renting a large
> hangar and setting up shop on the cheap.
>
> At $6K for stripping and painting a 152, it will take a heck of a lot
> of paint jobs to cover the monthly cost on a facility.
>
> Craig C.
>

[Pete Schaefer]

Yeah, unfortunately, it did. It was a I didn't hear the resolution on the
case, but they were talking about scrapping the airplane. It was looking
like the airplane needed to be completely reskinned. At least it wasn't
something cool. It was some single-engine Piper something or other with
retractable gear.

"bryan chaisone" > wrote in message
om...
> "Pete Schaefer" > wrote in message
news:<zObKc.97088$JR4.65570@attbi_s54>...
> > They did him the added favor of making all the rivet heads flush.
> > Complete disaster.
> Love that one, LOL. That didn't really happen did it? Ha, ha, ha.

[Pete Schaefer]

I think he's referring to issues of legal liability for customer's aircraft.
Yeah, there are a ton of regs you have to deal with (especially here in
California), but I'd think the liability exposure would be relatively low.
Just guessing, though. Have to talk to an insurance company about this to
be sure.

"Craig" > wrote in message
m...
> Least liability???? You have to be joking....Not only do you have to

[Matt Whiting]

bryan chaisone wrote:

> Thanks Craig, thanks a lot. Another dream shot down. LOL. These
> car-painting facilities are doing it with EPA's approval. They are a
> dime a dozen. I'm sure things can be worked out. I am thinking that,
> as Pete have said above; the preparation for airplane is different.
> Structural integrity has to be maintained. There is also the weight
> issue with airplanes. Other than those two, they should be the same.
> A lot less body filler? A lot less paint build-up? Approval by local
> and federal authorities and facility owner that you are renting from?
> What else am I missing? The prep area and the paint booth need to be
> a lot bigger? Might even paint motor homes, trucks and cars on the
> side too?
>
> I have the dream, the will power, and the love of aviation. That last
> one is what will make this an enjoyable career. I believe that you
> will be happier and live longer if you do what you love. Now all I
> need is start up money.
>
> Craig, I have read many of your posts, I respect your opinions. How
> can I make this happen? Hoe can I make this dream come true?
>
> Anyone have a suggestion?

Might want to start out working for an established paint shop to learn
the ropes before venturing out on your own. This experience also will
likely give you a lot more credibility when applying for business loans.


Matt

[Blueskies]

I saw a GIV at Duncan where someone had sanded the rivets off. The pilot didn't know until they were taxiing out and the
fuse was being pressurized; one of the windows popped out...

--
Dan D.
http://www.ameritech.net/users/ddevillers/start.html


..
"bryan chaisone" > wrote in message om...
> "Pete Schaefer" > wrote in message news:<zObKc.97088$JR4.65570@attbi_s54>...
> > They did him the added favor of making all the rivet heads flush.
> > Complete disaster.
> >
>
> Love that one, LOL. That didn't really happen did it? Ha, ha, ha.
>
> Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

[Craig]

(bryan chaisone) wrote in message >...
> Thanks Craig, thanks a lot. Another dream shot down. LOL.

Sorry to have burst the bubble there... :) I do have some
suggestions for you, but I'll send them via email later this week as
my time is very limited. ....I've got to finnish acceptance testing on
one aircraft at work, get a second one ready for maintenace training,
and qualify on three more fire trucks in our VFD by Thursday
morning......If I'm lucky, I'll get a little sleep in there too.......

Craig C.

[Joe Vasher]

(bryan chaisone) wrote in message >...
> (Joe Vasher) wrote in message
> > Don't DO THAT! It works out to more like 30 pounds, Just try to
> > wrangle a good ice stripper(its not to messing the ice particles melts
> > when your done, and you just sweep up the paint after a day or so.
> > from someone using that to remove the paint. It will cost you a few
> > hundred more (4 - 5)
>
>
> Who makes this ice stripper? Where can I learn more?
>
> Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

do a search on google for c02 blasters they come with the media maker
and the blasters.

[bryan chaisone]

(Joe Vasher) wrote in message >...
> (bryan chaisone) wrote in message >...
> > (Joe Vasher) wrote in message
> > > Don't DO THAT! It works out to more like 30 pounds, Just try to
> > > wrangle a good ice stripper(its not to messing the ice particles melts
> > > when your done, and you just sweep up the paint after a day or so.
> > > from someone using that to remove the paint. It will cost you a few
> > > hundred more (4 - 5)
> >
> >
> > Who makes this ice stripper? Where can I learn more?
> >
> > Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone
>
> do a search on google for c02 blasters they come with the media maker
> and the blasters.

Thank you Joe.

[Joe Vasher]

(bryan chaisone) wrote in message >...
> Anyone know what the going rate for a paint job is these days? For
> argument sake, white only, no trims.
>
> aircraft paint over full strip down & paint
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> c150/2 ? ?
> c172 ? ?
> mooney ? ?
> cherokee ? ?
> other low wings ? ?
>
> Just trying to see if I might get into this business. Always wanted
> to be in the aviation business. Thought painting might be the one w/
> the least liability.
>
> Thanks,
> Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

Well don't think you will ever get much better then 10 - 20 thousand
for a paint job, if you mean just spray the paint on or just strip the
paint and spray that just doesnt' happen much, It requires and a & p
to paint (for good reason) but when you do a paint on an aircraft alot
of stuff gets done other then painting. removing of all the controls,
fixing rivits, repair of fairings, ect. So My point to you if you just
want to spray/strip planes not much money in that. figure about 40 -
80 labor time at 50 buxs for the striping and painting but for the
rest of the money its mostly RR and repair.