Wingtip Wheels from Libelle 201?

[[email protected]]

Anyone have a source for the little hard plastic wingtip wheels that were recessed into the Libelle 201 wingtips? The early gliders didn't have them but I know of at least one owner who got them from Glasflugel and added them later. For those with long memories, W1 (Woody Woodward) installed one just to see if it added any detectable drag (apparently not) before installing the second one. Hahaha.

I've seen several variations of the small tip wheels that are built into a fairing or tip skid that's glued onto the bottom of the tip but not the type that are recessed into the wing as on the 201. Only the bottom half of the small hard plastic wheel protruded from the wingtip but it kept the tips off the ground if a wing dropped while flying and made ground handling a little easier, especially when landing out and having to move the glider solo..

It wouldn't be easy to replace one without opening up the wing (IIRC, the axle was inside of the skin) but I've never heard of anyone having to.

Chip Bearden

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

While not the exact same, I would imagine RollerBlade wheels can be had of about the same size.
Usually it's a polyurethane wheel with 2 semi sealed ball bearings, they come in a number of sizes, from kids blades up to high speed adult blades.

Just sorta thinking out loud.....

[[email protected]]

Ask that question at . And you will probably get lots of help.
Dale Bush

[JS[_5_]]

Chip, the utility is a bigger factor than the imagined drag penalty of tip wheels.
I had Rex Mayes put a pair of Walter Quitt's wing tip wheels on the 29 last year. If they are draggy, doubt anybody at Uvalde would have thought so.
Williams Soaring has them.
Jim

[[email protected]]

Thx. I've seen pics of the available tip wheels. And off-the-shelf wheels would work. But the Glasflugel device was so elegant: the wheel was small but robust, and half buried in the tip instead of the entire wheel being encased in a fairing, as I've found commercially available. And already mounted in a fiberglass assembly. I checked Streifeder's site without success but I'll post something on the Libelle owner's forum.

Chip Bearden

[Craig Funston[_3_]]

On Tuesday, January 9, 2018 at 3:21:18 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> Thx. I've seen pics of the available tip wheels. And off-the-shelf wheels would work. But the Glasflugel device was so elegant: the wheel was small but robust, and half buried in the tip instead of the entire wheel being encased in a fairing, as I've found commercially available. And already mounted in a fiberglass assembly. I checked Streifeder's site without success but I'll post something on the Libelle owner's forum.
>
> Chip Bearden

Chip, I retrofitted a set of factory wheels to a Libelle in the '70s (SN 71). They were available from the factory and consisted of the glass wheel pocket with an embedded steel U-strap and a surrounding glass flange. Installation consisted of making a hole and scarfing the outer skin around the flange then glassing it all together. It wouldn't be too hard to reproduce.

Craig

[Kiwi User]

On Tue, 09 Jan 2018 15:21:15 -0800, chip.bearden wrote:

> Thx. I've seen pics of the available tip wheels. And off-the-shelf
> wheels would work. But the Glasflugel device was so elegant: the wheel
> was small but robust, and half buried in the tip instead of the entire
> wheel being encased in a fairing, as I've found commercially available.
> And already mounted in a fiberglass assembly. I checked Streifeder's
> site without success but I'll post something on the Libelle owner's
> forum.
>
I was looking at the Glasfaser (Streifneder) website today and wondered
how easy it would be to fit wheels, possibly those made for skateboards,
inside the tall (50mm) tip skids that they sell.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Bob Kuykendall]

> ...possibly those made for skateboards...

My experience is that skateboard wheels don't do very well as either tailwheels or wingtip wheels. The bearings seem to wear out quickly and spit out their balls, then the wheel starts wobbling and tearing up the surrounding structure.

The issue appears to be that the bearings don't handle the shock loads that they regularly see in glider service. You'd think that they'd be better, since skateboards and inline skates appear to be often subjected to such loads. However, it bears remembering that the human leg is a quite effective shock absorption system, one absent from glider wingtips and tails.

I use 200x50 pneumatic wheels for tailwheels, and when I need a wingtip wheel, I usually make it out of 2" Delrin rod stock with a plain steel or Oilite bushing.

--Bob K.

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Monday, January 8, 2018 at 2:49:16 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> Anyone have a source for the little hard plastic wingtip wheels that were recessed into the Libelle 201 wingtips?

https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/77879526

[Dan Marotta]

I used a roller blade wheel as a tail wheel on my LS-6a for several
years.Â* Never needed to replace it.Â* Your results may vary.

On 1/10/2018 12:47 PM, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
>> ...possibly those made for skateboards...
> My experience is that skateboard wheels don't do very well as either tailwheels or wingtip wheels. The bearings seem to wear out quickly and spit out their balls, then the wheel starts wobbling and tearing up the surrounding structure.
>
> The issue appears to be that the bearings don't handle the shock loads that they regularly see in glider service. You'd think that they'd be better, since skateboards and inline skates appear to be often subjected to such loads. However, it bears remembering that the human leg is a quite effective shock absorption system, one absent from glider wingtips and tails.
>
> I use 200x50 pneumatic wheels for tailwheels, and when I need a wingtip wheel, I usually make it out of 2" Delrin rod stock with a plain steel or Oilite bushing.
>
> --Bob K.

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

I also use one for wing tip and tail on a 1-26, no problems 3 years going now, lots of off field landings as well.

[Kiwi User]

On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 11:51:22 -0800, Bob Kuykendall wrote:

> On Monday, January 8, 2018 at 2:49:16 PM UTC-8,
> wrote:
>> Anyone have a source for the little hard plastic wingtip wheels that
>> were recessed into the Libelle 201 wingtips?
>
> https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/77879526

Point taken! I had thought that some of the skate/rollerblage/skateboard
wheels were better quality than you describe.

Fortunately, or so it seems, I have friends with such toys as you pointed
to in their garages....


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[[email protected]]

Chip,
I'd send Stiefenater an email, he has lots of parts for all of Glasflugel's ships that are not shown on his webpage. I installed a set on a H-301 and believe I got them from Stiefenader. He has also sent me 92110 cloth, wing foam, water bags, etc. Good guy to know.
JJ

[[email protected]]

The name of the guy is "Streifeneder".

With skateboard or inline wheels (and especially the bearings) it's the same as with all products: different qualitys are available. Buy at a local skateshop instead of walmart, and probably softer wheels (78A) will damp shock loads a lot better than hard ones.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, January 9, 2018 at 6:21:18 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Thx. I've seen pics of the available tip wheels. And off-the-shelf wheels would work. But the Glasflugel device was so elegant: the wheel was small but robust, and half buried in the tip instead of the entire wheel being encased in a fairing, as I've found commercially available. And already mounted in a fiberglass assembly. I checked Streifeder's site without success but I'll post something on the Libelle owner's forum.
>
> Chip Bearden

McMaster-Carr 8946T61.
Took 3 minutes to find and don't need Bob's lathe.
UH
UH

[jfitch]

On Wednesday, January 10, 2018 at 11:47:31 AM UTC-8, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> > ...possibly those made for skateboards...
>
> My experience is that skateboard wheels don't do very well as either tailwheels or wingtip wheels. The bearings seem to wear out quickly and spit out their balls, then the wheel starts wobbling and tearing up the surrounding structure.
>
> The issue appears to be that the bearings don't handle the shock loads that they regularly see in glider service. You'd think that they'd be better, since skateboards and inline skates appear to be often subjected to such loads. However, it bears remembering that the human leg is a quite effective shock absorption system, one absent from glider wingtips and tails.
>
> I use 200x50 pneumatic wheels for tailwheels, and when I need a wingtip wheel, I usually make it out of 2" Delrin rod stock with a plain steel or Oilite bushing.
>
> --Bob K.

I've used in-line skate wheels in the tips and a 100 mm scooter wheel (they have the same bearings) in the tail of my ASH26 for years. 17 years in fact. Still using the original wing tip wheels, had to replace the tailwheel once early on (because of the plastic hub, not the bearings) now on year 15 on the new tailwheel. Heavy glider, taxiing under motor on every takeoff with the wing down, etc. Maybe you had some crappy wheels/bearings. The bearings are anything from about $0.40 to $10 with a commensurate difference in quality.

[Brian[_1_]]

I have made wing tip wheels by from a nylon cutting board. Just drilled with the appropriate size Hole Saw and then drilled the center to the appropriate diameter. If being fancy I have even pressed a brass bushing into the center.

Brian

[kirk.stant]

On Wednesday, January 10, 2018 at 1:47:31 PM UTC-6, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> > ...possibly those made for skateboards...
>
> My experience is that skateboard wheels don't do very well as either tailwheels or wingtip wheels. The bearings seem to wear out quickly and spit out their balls, then the wheel starts wobbling and tearing up the surrounding structure.
>
> The issue appears to be that the bearings don't handle the shock loads that they regularly see in glider service. You'd think that they'd be better, since skateboards and inline skates appear to be often subjected to such loads. However, it bears remembering that the human leg is a quite effective shock absorption system, one absent from glider wingtips and tails.
>
> I use 200x50 pneumatic wheels for tailwheels, and when I need a wingtip wheel, I usually make it out of 2" Delrin rod stock with a plain steel or Oilite bushing.
>
> --Bob K.

Really? My experience is exactly the opposite - I installed a rollerblade wheel (complete with the sealed bearing) in the tailskid of my LS6 16 years ago (it replaced the hard white plastic wheel that came with the skid). Replaced the original rollerblade wheel last season (with it's sibling - they came in packs of 2) because the wheel was badly chunked and ugly - but the bearings were fine (replaced anyway, just because).

So that little rollerblade wheel survived about 2000 hours in everything from desert dirt strips, paved strips, and muddy grass strips - and I always go for a tailwheel first landing so no going easy on it there!

Of course, the wheel is inside a rubber tailskid with a simple spring mount - perhaps a solid mount (like on a 1-34 for example) would be harder on the bearings...

As usual, YMMV.

Kirk
66

[[email protected]]

On Monday, January 8, 2018 at 5:49:16 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Anyone have a source for the little hard plastic wingtip wheels that were recessed into the Libelle 201 wingtips? The early gliders didn't have them but I know of at least one owner who got them from Glasflugel and added them later. For those with long memories, W1 (Woody Woodward) installed one just to see if it added any detectable drag (apparently not) before installing the second one. Hahaha.
>
> I've seen several variations of the small tip wheels that are built into a fairing or tip skid that's glued onto the bottom of the tip but not the type that are recessed into the wing as on the 201. Only the bottom half of the small hard plastic wheel protruded from the wingtip but it kept the tips off the ground if a wing dropped while flying and made ground handling a little easier, especially when landing out and having to move the glider solo.
>
> It wouldn't be easy to replace one without opening up the wing (IIRC, the axle was inside of the skin) but I've never heard of anyone having to.
>
> Chip Bearden

Chip,

I have some wheels I got from my HPH 304CZ. Do you know the size you need? I had to special order them and have since sold the glider.

Dan Reagan

[Colin Roney]

At 23:40 11 January 2018,
wrote:
>On Monday, January 8, 2018 at 5:49:16 PM UTC-5,
wrote:
>> Anyone have a source for the little hard plastic
wingtip wheels that
>were=
> recessed into the Libelle 201 wingtips? The early
gliders didn't have
>them=
> but I know of at least one owner who got them from
Glasflugel and added
>th=
>em later. For those with long memories, W1 (Woody
Woodward) installed one
>j=
>ust to see if it added any detectable drag (apparently
not) before
>installi=
>ng the second one. Hahaha.=20
>>=20
>> I've seen several variations of the small tip wheels
that are built into
>=
>a fairing or tip skid that's glued onto the bottom of the
tip but not the
>t=
>ype that are recessed into the wing as on the 201. Only
the bottom half of
>=
>the small hard plastic wheel protruded from the wingtip
but it kept the
>tip=
>s off the ground if a wing dropped while flying and
made ground handling a
>=
>little easier, especially when landing out and having to
move the glider
>so=
>lo.
>>=20
>> It wouldn't be easy to replace one without opening
up the wing (IIRC,
>the=
> axle was inside of the skin) but I've never heard of
anyone having to.=20
>>=20
>> Chip Bearden
>
>Chip,
>
>I have some wheels I got from my HPH 304CZ. Do you
know the size you
>need?=
> I had to special order them and have since sold the
glider.
>
>Dan Reagan


A point that doesn`t seemed to have been raised
concerns the protection of the underside t/e of the
aileron when landing on a hard runway and unable to
keep the wings level until the glider stops.If a bit of
inadvertent stick against the wing going down occurs at
the last moment before stopping damage will occur.In
this case a skid of up to 40mm deep may be required.

[Kiwi User]

On Fri, 12 Jan 2018 15:52:45 +0000, Colin Roney wrote:

> At 23:40 11 January 2018, wrote:
>>On Monday, January 8, 2018 at 5:49:16 PM UTC-5,
> wrote:
>>> Anyone have a source for the little hard plastic
> wingtip wheels that
>>were=
>> recessed into the Libelle 201 wingtips? The early
> gliders didn't have
>>them=
>> but I know of at least one owner who got them from
> Glasflugel and added
>>th=
>>em later. For those with long memories, W1 (Woody
> Woodward) installed one
>>j=
>>ust to see if it added any detectable drag (apparently
> not) before
>>installi=
>>ng the second one. Hahaha.=20
>>>=20
>>> I've seen several variations of the small tip wheels
> that are built into
>>=
>>a fairing or tip skid that's glued onto the bottom of the
> tip but not the
>>t=
>>ype that are recessed into the wing as on the 201. Only
> the bottom half of
>>=
>>the small hard plastic wheel protruded from the wingtip
> but it kept the
>>tip=
>>s off the ground if a wing dropped while flying and
> made ground handling a
>>=
>>little easier, especially when landing out and having to
> move the glider
>>so=
>>lo.
>>>=20
>>> It wouldn't be easy to replace one without opening
> up the wing (IIRC,
>>the=
>> axle was inside of the skin) but I've never heard of
> anyone having to.=20
>>>=20
>>> Chip Bearden
>>
>>Chip,
>>
>>I have some wheels I got from my HPH 304CZ. Do you
> know the size you
>>need?=
>> I had to special order them and have since sold the
> glider.
>>
>>Dan Reagan
>
>
> A point that doesn`t seemed to have been raised concerns the protection
> of the underside t/e of the aileron when landing on a hard runway and
> unable to keep the wings level until the glider stops.If a bit of
> inadvertent stick against the wing going down occurs at the last moment
> before stopping damage will occur.In this case a skid of up to 40mm deep
> may be required.

..... that was at the back of my mind when I was asking about fitting a
wheel in one of the wingtip skids sold by Glasfaser. They make two types:
35mm and 50mm deep.

I've just ordered 35mm skids. This is on the grounds that I fly off grass
both at home and anywhere else that I'm likely to visit lands on grass
even if it has a hard runway. Consequently I don't want to fit a skid
containing a wheel because doing this is likely to fill the skid with mud
in damp conditions. Of course,

35mm may just be enough to keep the ailerons off the rocks but I'll check
whether the ailerons are clear of a hard surface. However, if it isn't
and I find myself going some place with hard runways I can always glue a
rubber doorstop with a reshaped mounting face onto each skid as a
temporary measure.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[[email protected]]

> Chip,
>
> I have some wheels I got from my HPH 304CZ. Do you know the size you need? I had to special order them and have since sold the glider.
>
> Dan Reagan

Dan, I PM'd you.

JJ, Good thought. I'd already inquired of Streifeneder and they responded that they still have the 201-type wheels in stock. I don't have the dimensions.

Dimensions are important because the size of wheel is limited by the depth of the wingtip. I have some great plastic wheels in my parts box but they're nearly 3" in diameter. UH is looking at some other possibilities about an inch smaller.

My rubber tip skids have 26 years' worth of wear but I've still never touched an aileron. Obviously a wheel would have to provide adequate clearance, with no worse drag.

Chip Bearden

[[email protected]]

If anyone can provide accurate dimensions (diameter, width, axle size), I would be able to provide wheel sets made out of UHMW plastic. Highly abrasion resistant, easy to machine and not brittle like most plastics.

Contact me. info at mmfabrication dot com