Sparrowhawk and airtow

[Bill Daniels]

Why not just winch launch the thing and leave all this FAR bible pounding
behind?

Bill Daniels

[BTIZ]

not every place you want to fly has a winch...

BT

"Bill Daniels" > wrote in message
news:IKtyc.11725$2i5.1607@attbi_s52...
> Why not just winch launch the thing and leave all this FAR bible pounding
> behind?
>
> Bill Daniels
>

[Slick]

especially in the U.S.
"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:k8vyc.18913$fZ1.13084@fed1read03...
> not every place you want to fly has a winch...
>
> BT
>
> "Bill Daniels" > wrote in message
> news:IKtyc.11725$2i5.1607@attbi_s52...
> > Why not just winch launch the thing and leave all this FAR bible
pounding
> > behind?
> >
> > Bill Daniels
> >
>
>




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[Bill Daniels]

No winch? Buy or build one.

Bill Daniels

"Slick" > wrote in message
...
> especially in the U.S.
> "BTIZ" > wrote in message
> news:k8vyc.18913$fZ1.13084@fed1read03...
> > not every place you want to fly has a winch...
> >
> > BT
> >
> > "Bill Daniels" > wrote in message
> > news:IKtyc.11725$2i5.1607@attbi_s52...
> > > Why not just winch launch the thing and leave all this FAR bible
> pounding
> > > behind?
> > >
> > > Bill Daniels
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

[Eric Greenwell]

Bill Daniels wrote:
> No winch? Buy or build one.
>
> Bill Daniels

And if it was built for the SparrowHawk (415 pounds gross), it wouldn't
have to be much of a winch. Or tow it with car, even a small one.
--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Tony Verhulst]

Bill Daniels wrote:
> No winch? Buy or build one.

In the northeast US we have lots of trees and our airport is a
relatively narrow rectangular plot of cleared land surrounded by trees -
lots of trees. In any kind of cross wind, where would the winch rope
land after release? Right!

The glider grass runway is next to the paved runway used by the power
crowd. A paved taxiway leading from the paved rwy to the ramp crosses
the grass runway at midfield. The airport manager would, properly, be
not inclined to permit winch launching across an active taxiway.

There are lots of cases where a winch is not an option.

Tony V.

[Bill Daniels]

"Tony Verhulst" > wrote in message
...
> Bill Daniels wrote:
> > No winch? Buy or build one.
>
> In the northeast US we have lots of trees and our airport is a
> relatively narrow rectangular plot of cleared land surrounded by trees -
> lots of trees. In any kind of cross wind, where would the winch rope
> land after release? Right!

Actually, the rope would wind up on the winch drum after release since
normal procedure is to wind it all the way in if there is any chance that
letting it fall would cause problems.

A confined runway surrounded by trees isn't a great option for airtow either
unless the tug can always keep the glider in a position to return to the
runway in the event of a premature launch failure. Winch launch has an
advantage here because the glider is always in a position to either land
straight ahead or, if it is too high for that, fly a short pattern.

>
> The glider grass runway is next to the paved runway used by the power
> crowd. A paved taxiway leading from the paved rwy to the ramp crosses
> the grass runway at midfield. The airport manager would, properly, be
> not inclined to permit winch launching across an active taxiway.
>
> There are lots of cases where a winch is not an option.

True. However, there are also lots of places where it is an option. In
fact, many more than most US pilots suppose.

There is a tendency among pilots not familiar with winch launch to think up
all the ways that improper procedures can screw up the operation and little
appreciation of how a well disciplined operation can co-exist with other
traffic. Winch launch operations co-exist with air-tow and power traffic at
many European glider operations. (In response to the preceding point I had
a US pilot blurt, "But Europeans are smarter than we are".) Could be, they
use winches.

Bill Daniels

[Gary Boggs]

We use a pay-out winch here in Hood River, Oregon at an airport and have no
problem with power traffic at all. We usually are using the winch when the
wind has picked up and there is almost no power traffic at these time at
all. We launch from the taxi way and have the required flashing yellow
light on our tow vehicle. It is much more neighbor friendly than using our
tow plane. I am convinced that it is much safer than an aero tow because
the climb is so steep that you either have plenty of room to land straight
ahead or plenty of altitude to make a 360 degree pattern. Costello thinks
it's probably safer too.


"Bill Daniels" > wrote in message
news:N%kzc.105626$Ly.66557@attbi_s01...
>
> "Tony Verhulst" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Bill Daniels wrote:
> > > No winch? Buy or build one.
> >
> > In the northeast US we have lots of trees and our airport is a
> > relatively narrow rectangular plot of cleared land surrounded by trees -
> > lots of trees. In any kind of cross wind, where would the winch rope
> > land after release? Right!
>
> Actually, the rope would wind up on the winch drum after release since
> normal procedure is to wind it all the way in if there is any chance that
> letting it fall would cause problems.
>
> A confined runway surrounded by trees isn't a great option for airtow
either
> unless the tug can always keep the glider in a position to return to the
> runway in the event of a premature launch failure. Winch launch has an
> advantage here because the glider is always in a position to either land
> straight ahead or, if it is too high for that, fly a short pattern.
>
> >
> > The glider grass runway is next to the paved runway used by the power
> > crowd. A paved taxiway leading from the paved rwy to the ramp crosses
> > the grass runway at midfield. The airport manager would, properly, be
> > not inclined to permit winch launching across an active taxiway.
> >
> > There are lots of cases where a winch is not an option.
>
> True. However, there are also lots of places where it is an option. In
> fact, many more than most US pilots suppose.
>
> There is a tendency among pilots not familiar with winch launch to think
up
> all the ways that improper procedures can screw up the operation and
little
> appreciation of how a well disciplined operation can co-exist with other
> traffic. Winch launch operations co-exist with air-tow and power traffic
at
> many European glider operations. (In response to the preceding point I
had
> a US pilot blurt, "But Europeans are smarter than we are".) Could be,
they
> use winches.
>
> Bill Daniels
>

[Robert Ehrlich]

Bill Daniels wrote:
> ...
>
> Actually, the rope would wind up on the winch drum after release since
> normal procedure is to wind it all the way in if there is any chance that
> letting it fall would cause problems.
> ...


OK, but problems come when you can't follow the normal procedure, e.g.
cable break.

[Bill Daniels]

"Robert Ehrlich" > wrote in message
...
> Bill Daniels wrote:
> > ...
> >
> > Actually, the rope would wind up on the winch drum after release since
> > normal procedure is to wind it all the way in if there is any chance
that
> > letting it fall would cause problems.
> > ...
>
>
> OK, but problems come when you can't follow the normal procedure, e.g.
> cable break.

True, but if breaks are likely to cause abnormal problems, you pay more
attention to preventing them. The German tests of Dyneema plastic cable are
now well beyond 1000 launches without a single cable break. Based on test
results I have seen, it looks like 5000 break free launches may be possible
with reasonable care of the rope.

Bill Daniels

[BTIZ]

> Costello thinks it's probably safer too.

Interesting statement... how is that so?

BT

[Dan Goldman]

"Gary Boggs" > wrote in message >...
> We use a pay-out winch here in Hood River, Oregon at an airport and have no
> problem with power traffic at all. We usually are using the winch when the
> wind has picked up and there is almost no power traffic at these time at
> all. We launch from the taxi way and have the required flashing yellow
> light on our tow vehicle. It is much more neighbor friendly than using our
> tow plane. I am convinced that it is much safer than an aero tow because
> the climb is so steep that you either have plenty of room to land straight
> ahead or plenty of altitude to make a 360 degree pattern. Costello thinks
> it's probably safer too.
>
Gary,
What type of sailplane to you tow?
What type of pay out system do you use ?
Dan

[Bruce Greeff]

Tony Verhulst wrote:
> Bill Daniels wrote:
>
>> No winch? Buy or build one.
>
>
> In the northeast US we have lots of trees and our airport is a
> relatively narrow rectangular plot of cleared land surrounded by trees -
> lots of trees. In any kind of cross wind, where would the winch rope
> land after release? Right!
>
> The glider grass runway is next to the paved runway used by the power
> crowd. A paved taxiway leading from the paved rwy to the ramp crosses
> the grass runway at midfield. The airport manager would, properly, be
> not inclined to permit winch launching across an active taxiway.
>
> There are lots of cases where a winch is not an option.
>
> Tony V.
>
Our experience agrees with regulation. You need 30m (roughly 170 feet) between
the winch cable and the trees, and the winch cable and the runway. If you
measure you will probably find you do have enough space.

As for the cable landing in the trees, this depends on your design. We have a
huge open field, and a winch that is a bit slow on pickup/prone to looping. For
this situation we use a fighter (Dassault Mirage F1 FWIW) drag chute. This is
choked till it gives us a quick opening chute with a stable slow descent. When
you apply power, it comes down nice and controlled and keeps the cable under
tension, but in strong crosswinds it can have the cable only just clearing our
boundary fence about 250m away.

The general design is for a much smaller, heavier chute (700-800mm) that falls
much faster - and keeps the cable closer to where it was dropped. This of course
is the crux of the matter. A winch pilot who knows what he/she is doing will
launch upwind in a crosswind so that the cable falls toward the centreline. The
small chutes are made of a tough canvas and when they do land in bushes etc. the
general practice is to simply drag them free - making sure the area is clear and
it is safe to do so of course.

We simply do not launch if the crosswind component is too strong for safety. In
our case that is well before cable drift is a major problem.

[Andreas Maurer]

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 18:12:04 +0000, Robert Ehrlich
> wrote:

>OK, but problems come when you can't follow the normal procedure, e.g.
>cable break.

Cable break IS as normal procedure. :)

Bye
Andreas

[Bill Daniels]

"Andreas Maurer" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 18:12:04 +0000, Robert Ehrlich
> > wrote:
>
> >OK, but problems come when you can't follow the normal procedure, e.g.
> >cable break.
>
> Cable break IS as normal procedure. :)
>
> Bye
> Andreas

Guys, check the German Dyneema tests. They aren't getting cable breaks.

Bill Daniels

[Jack]

Bill Daniels wrote:

> "Andreas Maurer wrote:

>>Cable break IS as normal procedure. :)


> Guys, check the German Dyneema tests. They aren't getting cable breaks.


That's abnormal!


Jack

[Andreas Maurer]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 16:20:53 GMT, "Bill Daniels" >
wrote:

>Guys, check the German Dyneema tests. They aren't getting cable breaks.

Since these tests are carried out at my airfield (and sometimes I'm
using the Dyneema cable, too) I guess I know pretty well if there are
cable breaks or not. :)

Fact is that they have seldom cable breaks. Usually their cable breaks
only in places where it has been damaged before.

Unfortunately weak links still do break from time to time.
And unfortunately the cable break procedures must be trained as usual.


Bye
Andreas

[Graeme Cant]

Bill Daniels wrote:

> Guys, check the German Dyneema tests. They aren't getting cable breaks.

No engine failures? NO "premature terminations of the launch" for any
reason AT ALL?

So the guys with the narrow strip in the trees don't have to make ANY
provisions whatsoever for early launch failures?

Graeme Cant

[Gary Boggs]

We are towing a 2-33 mostly. A couple of friends of mime built the winch
from plans they got from Barry Steele at Appropriate Engineering

As far as Costello thinking it's safer, that came from conversations I had
with them while I was obtaining insurance for my operation here in Oregon
and there is no additional charge to cover the addition of the winch
operation.


"Dan Goldman" > wrote in message
om...
> "Gary Boggs" > wrote in message
>...
> > We use a pay-out winch here in Hood River, Oregon at an airport and have
no
> > problem with power traffic at all. We usually are using the winch when
the
> > wind has picked up and there is almost no power traffic at these time at
> > all. We launch from the taxi way and have the required flashing yellow
> > light on our tow vehicle. It is much more neighbor friendly than using
our
> > tow plane. I am convinced that it is much safer than an aero tow
because
> > the climb is so steep that you either have plenty of room to land
straight
> > ahead or plenty of altitude to make a 360 degree pattern. Costello
thinks
> > it's probably safer too.
> >
> Gary,
> What type of sailplane to you tow?
> What type of pay out system do you use ?
> Dan

[Bill Daniels]

"Graeme Cant" > wrote in message
...
> Bill Daniels wrote:
>
> > Guys, check the German Dyneema tests. They aren't getting cable breaks.
>
> No engine failures? NO "premature terminations of the launch" for any
> reason AT ALL?
>
> So the guys with the narrow strip in the trees don't have to make ANY
> provisions whatsoever for early launch failures?
>
> Graeme Cant
>

Straw man argument.

Of course you train for premature launch failures - just like you do for
airtow. The original drift of this thread seemed to suggest that launch
failures were epidemic with winch launch.

With a well run winch operation the launch failures won't be any more common
than with air tow and the glider is more likely to be in a favorable
position to deal with them.

My remark about no launch failures was based on the German Dyneema test
group's reply to a question about how they dealt with breaks. Their reply
was, "we haven't had any."

Bill Daniels

[Graeme Cant]

Bill Daniels wrote:

> Straw man argument.
>
> Of course you train for premature launch failures - just like you do for
> airtow. The original drift of this thread seemed to suggest that launch
> failures were epidemic with winch launch.
> With a well run winch operation the launch failures won't be any more common
> than with air tow ...

I disagree. I've never seen any winch operation with a failure rate as
low as most aerotow. I share your enthusiasm for winches but don't
oversell them.

....snip
> My remark about no launch failures was based on the German Dyneema test
> group's reply to a question about how they dealt with breaks. Their reply
> was, "we haven't had any."

Exactly. You equated no cable breaks to no launch failures.

The discussion was about a field where cable breaks couldn't be
practiced. Simulated cable break is how winch operations train their
pilots to handle ALL premature terminations of the launch - weak link
failure, engine failure, failure of the laying gear, jams in the feed
rollers, even the drum falling off because of fatigue cracking of the
hub, even sometimes, the Dyneema failing.

The reliability of the cable is the straw man in this argument. I don't
care if the Dyneema never breaks, if there's no way of practising
premature termination of the launch skills and procedures, the field is
unsuitable as a base for winching.

There was some scepticism expressed that it would be suitable for
aerotow if it wasn't suitable for a winch. I think that's a good
question but neither of us have seen the field so there's nothing useful
we can say on that.

Graeme Cant
>
> Bill Daniels
>

[Bill Daniels]

"Graeme Cant" > wrote in message
...
> Exactly. You equated no cable breaks to no launch failures.
>
> The discussion was about a field where cable breaks couldn't be
> practiced. Simulated cable break is how winch operations train their
> pilots to handle ALL premature terminations of the launch - weak link
> failure, engine failure, failure of the laying gear, jams in the feed
> rollers, even the drum falling off because of fatigue cracking of the
> hub, even sometimes, the Dyneema failing.

OK, I see your point. Launch failures can occur for other reasons than
cable break. However, those that you mention can be largely eliminated by
good design and mantenance. The most common reason for launch failures I
have seen other than cable break is the winch running out of gas. That's
pretty easy to deal with.

Replacing steel wire with Dyneema/Spectra itself eliminates a lot of failure
modes since the stuff really doesn't want to tangle or jam. Reducing the
rotating mass of the drum helps too. 5000 feet of 3/16 inch wire rope
weighs about 300 pounds. The same amount of Spectra weighs about 50 pounds.

>
> The reliability of the cable is the straw man in this argument. I don't
> care if the Dyneema never breaks, if there's no way of practising
> premature termination of the launch skills and procedures, the field is
> unsuitable as a base for winching.

Absolutely agree. If you can't practice launch failures, the field is
unsuitable.
>
> There was some scepticism expressed that it would be suitable for
> aerotow if it wasn't suitable for a winch. I think that's a good
> question but neither of us have seen the field so there's nothing useful
> we can say on that.

If a launch failure of air tow or winch would put the pilot at risk, there
needs to be some serious thinking about proceedures.

Bill Daniels