Looping a standard cirrus

[[email protected]]

Who has done a loop in a standard cirrus? Any comments or hints. Currently getting some acro training with the goal of looping my cirrus.

[[email protected]]

I do not believe the Standard Cirrus can be looped safely. Don't try it, or the world will spontaneously combust and all life will end.

[Key Dismukes]

On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 4:57:46 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> Who has done a loop in a standard cirrus? Any comments or hints. Currently getting some acro training with the goal of looping my cirrus.

I started to do a loop long ago in my standard Cirrus, but as i put the nose for speed started to get some flutter from the flying stabilizer. Quickly (but oh so gently) aborted the loop.

[[email protected]]

Check the operating manual. If the manual doesn’t tell you how to do the loop, don’t do it. The manual for any good glider will have a section that explains the procedure and entry speed for a loop.

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 6:17:32 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> I do not believe the Standard Cirrus can be looped safely. Don't try it, or the world will spontaneously combust and all life will end.

Flight manual predicts the end of life as we know it maybe!

http://www.standardcirrus.org/flightandservicemanual.pdf

Richard

[[email protected]]

It’s rated for loops. All it says is that the entry speed is 97 knots

[[email protected]]

The glider is rated for loops. Entry speed 97 knots. Im just wondering if any other cirrus owner frequently loop and how it behaves

[Dave Nadler]

On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 1:57:46 PM UTC+13, wrote:
> Who has done a loop in a standard cirrus?

Accidentally or intentionally?
If you don't know what I'm talking about, you should...

[Surge]

On Tuesday, 16 January 2018 07:38:48 UTC+2, wrote:
> The glider is rated for loops. Entry speed 97 knots. Im just wondering if any other cirrus owner frequently loop and how it behaves

The Cirrus may have been rated for loops when it was new and free of repairs, control slop, etc. so unless your 40+ year old glider is in pristine condition with no accident history you will need to take all those approved maneuvers and Vne with a pinch of salt.
I would not try it myself.

[Tango Whisky]

Le mardi 16 janvier 2018 11:17:54 UTC+1, Surge a écritÂ*:

> The Cirrus may have been rated for loops when it was new and free of repairs, control slop, etc. so unless your 40+ year old glider is in pristine condition with no accident history you will need to take all those approved maneuvers and Vne with a pinch of salt.
> I would not try it myself.

A loop means entry speed of about 100 kts and pulling 3-3.5 g.
If you don't think you can do that with a certain glider, that glider is probably not airworthy in the first place.

[Nick Kennedy]

Oh come on, If Bruno can do it... Finish your Aero training and go for it, whats the worst that can go wrong? Wings or elevator comes off? Tailslide? Thats what your parachute is for BTW, practice getting out in all conditions and go for it, the glider IS certificated for the maneuver, what could got wrong? Pilots do loops all the time.

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 10:32:06 PM UTC-6, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 6:17:32 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > I do not believe the Standard Cirrus can be looped safely. Don't try it, or the world will spontaneously combust and all life will end.
>
> Flight manual predicts the end of life as we know it maybe!
>
> http://www.standardcirrus.org/flightandservicemanual.pdf
>
> Richard

I like the statement: "The sailplane enters into a spin from a sharp stall applying full rudder. The control stick should be pulled during the spin."

So, are you to remove the control stick if you enter a spin? :-)

Steve Leonard

[Scott Williams]

On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 9:17:50 AM UTC-6, Steve Leonard wrote:
> On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 10:32:06 PM UTC-6, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 6:17:32 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > I do not believe the Standard Cirrus can be looped safely. Don't try it, or the world will spontaneously combust and all life will end.
> >
> > Flight manual predicts the end of life as we know it maybe!
> >
> > http://www.standardcirrus.org/flightandservicemanual.pdf
> >
> > Richard
>
> I like the statement: "The sailplane enters into a spin from a sharp stall applying full rudder. The control stick should be pulled during the spin."
>
> So, are you to remove the control stick if you enter a spin? :-)
>
> Steve Leonard

Hey Steve,
I think I get (and appreciate) your joke,
but For my own safety, "pulling the stick" is to intentionally induce and maintain a spin, Correct?

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 9:49:52 AM UTC-6, Scott Williams wrote:
> Hey Steve,
> I think I get (and appreciate) your joke,
> but For my own safety, "pulling the stick" is to intentionally induce and maintain a spin, Correct?

I think something is lost in translation, but I believe the manual is saying you need to keep the stick back to keep the plane in the spin. Relaxing back pressure may lead to a spiral. It says recovery is done by easing the stick forward, and applying "slight opposite rudder". Both implying not full motion of a control. Not having any Std Cirrus experience myself, I would defer to someone who does have this experience.

Steve Leonard

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

I believe the joke is, "pulling the stick" as in.......removing it.......

;-)

Yes, most aircraft, pulling the stick either deepens the spin, or, (sorta worse) makes it a spiral.
Big difference between a spin and a spiral is that a spin will usually stabilize until you escape it, recover or hit terrain. A spiral may mean you "remove the wings" as you either exceed VNE or G loads, possibly BEFORE you hit terrain.

I believe I get the joke.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Hopefully it is dual controls so someone else can recover, you have a chute, you have enough altitude so the aircraft saves your butt........

;-)

[[email protected]]

I have looped an early, all-flying stab Cirrus, Mini Nimbus, and Janus A. Seriously locked down my control hand/arm on my leg as the elevator stick pressure in all of them is pretty neutral and it would be pretty easy to pull too hard.

[[email protected]]

Am Dienstag, 16. Januar 2018 01:57:46 UTC+1 schrieb :
> Who has done a loop in a standard cirrus? Any comments or hints. Currently getting some acro training with the goal of looping my cirrus.

Hi,

I would recommend good training before trying to loop the cirrus, as the cited entry speed of 97 knots is quite near to VNE of 119 kt. Very easy to get out of it with a lot of speed.

Don't do it without a G-meter installed.

Regards
Stefan

[Kevin Neave[_2_]]

Looping the Std Cirrus is very straightforward, and no different to looping
any other glass glider.

If you're competent to loop *any* glider the Cirrus should be no problem

(If you can't maintain speed within 20% of your target (97kts vs 118) then
you should probablyy give it a miss)

KN

[Andrew Ainslie]

I never understand why people loop gliders designed for competition. Grab a club 21 or Grob or something less slippery with a bigger spar and have fun with that. Or even better, pay to go up in a Decathlon with an instructor and actually learn something in the process.

All that looping a slippery glider gets you is an awful butt-clenching sense of "Oh **** Oh **** Oh **** Oh **** Oh ****" as your eyes jump between the bending wings and the clockwise acceleration of the ASI.

Looping a competition glider makes as much sense as turning the engine off on a Pawnee and trying to soar it. In both cases, you're using the wrong tool for the job.

[krasw]

On Friday, 19 January 2018 15:52:54 UTC+2, Andrew Ainslie wrote:
> I never understand why people loop gliders designed for competition. Grab a club 21 or Grob or something less slippery with a bigger spar and have fun with that. Or even better, pay to go up in a Decathlon with an instructor and actually learn something in the process.
>
> All that looping a slippery glider gets you is an awful butt-clenching sense of "Oh **** Oh **** Oh **** Oh **** Oh ****" as your eyes jump between the bending wings and the clockwise acceleration of the ASI.
>
> Looping a competition glider makes as much sense as turning the engine off on a Pawnee and trying to soar it. In both cases, you're using the wrong tool for the job.

Because it's fun, if done with glider that is rated for aerobatics, and training to avoid that "oh ****".

[[email protected][_1_]]

Pawnees do pretty well in the wave deadstick. Super Cubs are far better in ridge and thermal lift deadstick.

Because it is fun and outrageous. Soaring could use a bit more Fun and Outrageous.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

I remember using out C-150 in the wave over Wurtsboro, NY many years ago, (I fly out of Middletown, NY, about 12 miles away).
Not good enough to rig a sailplane, but gaining "yoke time" in power. Tuned in the local glider frequency and heard local glider pilots commenting on the "power guy" by them. I replied my intentions, stated I would avoid them, didn't want to waste a wave day.
Power at idle with carb heat, worth the flight.

[Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas]

On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 6:57:46 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> Who has done a loop in a standard cirrus? Any comments or hints. Currently getting some acro training with the goal of looping my cirrus.


Please get acro training in a two seat sailplane in an ASK-21. Acro training in an airplane such as a Citabria has the advantage of adding engine power at the top of the loop. In a sailplane you might get bit slow at that point.

Ask me how I know. Decades ago, I had acro training (spins, rolls, "round" loops and when you mess up, "dishing out" / "Split-S" recoveries) in a Citabria airplane from an acro competitor / CFI. Then in my Blanik I tried to make a "round" loop. At the top I got very slow and mushed down inverted for a few seconds. An acro CFI in Germany told me later that I could have entered an inverted spin. He suggested smooth full stick back at the top of the loop to make sure it gets all the way around past inverted without getting too slow.

Nor do you want to get too fast on the backside of the loop.
Your Standard Cirrus Vne is only 119 knots indicated at sea level, relatively slow compared to modern sailplanes. Entry speed for a loop in your Standard Cirrus per the flight manual is 97 knots.

Vne in my ASK-21 is 151 knots at sea level. 121 knots at 15,000' MSL. Entry speed for solo loop is 84 knots.
Check your flight manual to learn the "real" True Air Speed (TAS vs. IAS) at altitude as a sailplane will accelerate quickly nose down around the backside of the loop compared to a relatively draggy airplane. Know your maximum speed for deploying airbrakes / dive brakes.
Be real smooth on the controls (in any phase of flight) . . . your Cirrus sailplane is not a Pitts Special.

Know that your Va Maneuvering speed is lower when you are flying at a lower weight than max gross.
That might not seem intuitive but that's why Va speed is not usually marked on your airspeed indicator.
Va varies with aircraft weight. The flight manual Va, along with other limitations including load factor, is at your maximum allowable gross weight. By the way, "a" is for acceleration. Read up on Va.

Beware of flutter which can destroy an aircraft. Flight control connections, hinges, etc. need to be lubricated and as snug as they were from the factory. Consult your Maintenance Manual for how much control surface looseness or "jiggle" is allowed with someone holding the stick hard/still and then check the proper degrees of up/down or left/right control deflection. That would be on your FAA Type Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS) available at faa.gov

Adjust the airbrake pushrod tension so they do not pop full out when flying fast into the loop.
Keep your left hand on that blue airbrake handle to hold it in, then be ready to pull it if you get too fast on the backside of the loop.

Get a current Weight & Balance accomplished.
Install a calibrated G-meter.
My 1972 Standard Cirrus at Marfa, Texas, is fairly low time but I do not feel the need to loop it as "soaring" is what it does so well. If I want to do acro and not have to take a lot of tows, I get into a Citabria airplane.

My ASK-21 that I bought new is definitely loop capable. For resale value, I purposely imported it as "acro" from the Schleicher factory and it is FAA certificated as "Acrobatic." The factory installed calibrated G-meters with plus and minus red lines (+6.5 and - 4G at Va, not Vne), crotch straps for inverted flight and the structural red rings for your parachute static line. Yes, acro in the ASK-21 is fun. It also soars really well.

I do not consider myself a current acro instructor. My thoughts above are not ground school in acro nor for preparing your sailplane. I strongly recommend you contact a CFIG that is proficient in sailplane acrobatics. (By the way, in Germany, an "Acro" CFI is a separate CFI advanced rating.)

So, do what you like (up high) but my suggestion is to get dual instruction from the 4 time sailplane aerobatic champion Jason Stephens at Arizona Soaring, south of Phoenix. (See his advert on the inside front cover of your SOARING magazine.) Reading a book or my comments is not enough to be proficient.

Jason Stephens is the best and that's who I would get dual instruction from if I decided to get back into sailplane acro.

Burt Compton, CFI airplane & glider / FAA Designated Pilot Examiner
Marfa Gliders Soaring Center, southwest Texas
www.flygliders.com

[Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas]

On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 3:42:20 AM UTC-6, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 1:57:46 PM UTC+13, wrote:
> > Who has done a loop in a standard cirrus?
>
> Accidentally or intentionally?
> If you don't know what I'm talking about, you should...

What Dave says . . .
The smoothest soaring pilot I ever flew with was Johnny Byrd (R.I.P), multiple time champion and member of our US World Team. He described to me about flying in very rough air when his Standard Cirrus sailplane pitched up vertical, so he pulled it around into a loop. He figured that was the best option to avoid a falling "tail slide" which might break the sailplane. It possibly pitched up so suddenly due the all-flying horizontal tailplane. I do not believe that he ever looped any other aircraft except for that "accidental" loop.

Johnny Byrd was cool cat. Quiet demeanor and always helpful. I learned a lot from his sharing of his knowledge and I miss him so . . .

Burt
Marfa, TX

[Michael Opitz]

At 02:10 20 January 2018, Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west
Texas wrote:
>On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 3:42:20 AM UTC-6, Dave Nadler
wrote:
>> On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 1:57:46 PM UTC+13,

>wro=
>te:
>> > Who has done a loop in a standard cirrus?
>>=20
>> Accidentally or intentionally?
>> If you don't know what I'm talking about, you should...
>
>What Dave says . . .=20
>The smoothest soaring pilot I ever flew with was Johnny Byrd
(R.I.P),
>multi=
>ple time champion and member of our US World Team. He
described to me
>abou=
>t flying in very rough air when his Standard Cirrus sailplane pitched
up
>ve=
>rtical, so he pulled it around into a loop. He figured that was the
best
>o=
>ption to avoid a falling "tail slide" which might break the sailplane.
It
>=
>possibly pitched up so suddenly due the all-flying horizontal
tailplane.
>I=
> do not believe that he ever looped any other aircraft except for
that
>"acc=
>idental" loop. =20
>
>Johnny Byrd was cool cat. Quiet demeanor and always helpful. I
learned a
>=
>lot from his sharing of his knowledge and I miss him so . . .=20
>
>Burt
>Marfa, TX
>

I miss 30 a lot as well... He was my team-mate....

RO

[[email protected]]

Doing a loop is well within the flight envelope of almost all modern (<20 years) gliders. A low stress figure that is fun to fly.
BUT...you should have a verified, accurate G-meter.
AND...the greatest risk about flying aerobatics is knowing what to do when a figure is failing. Learning how to safely recover from a figure that is going bad is the true value of aeraobatic training. Most low time acro pilots I have flown with do not know what to do when they stall out at the top of a loop. They freeze at the controls while they are trying to think their way out of the situation. While they are thinking the aircraft is gaining speed VERY RAPIDLY. It takes only the blink of an eye to blow through your Vne. All of our current acro gliders have Vne around 150 knots. That gives us a large gap between the 100 knots we typically start and end a loop at and the Vne. Your glider Vne is so close to the entry/exit speed of a loop that it would be hard to give you a thumbs up on doing a loop in that aircraft.

Get acro training in an acro aircraft and be happy.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, January 19, 2018 at 8:47:39 PM UTC-5, Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas wrote:
> On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 6:57:46 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> > Who has done a loop in a standard cirrus? Any comments or hints. Currently getting some acro training with the goal of looping my cirrus.
>
>
> Please get acro training in a two seat sailplane in an ASK-21. Acro training in an airplane such as a Citabria has the advantage of adding engine power at the top of the loop. In a sailplane you might get bit slow at that point.
>
> Ask me how I know. Decades ago, I had acro training (spins, rolls, "round" loops and when you mess up, "dishing out" / "Split-S" recoveries) in a Citabria airplane from an acro competitor / CFI. Then in my Blanik I tried to make a "round" loop. At the top I got very slow and mushed down inverted for a few seconds. An acro CFI in Germany told me later that I could have entered an inverted spin. He suggested smooth full stick back at the top of the loop to make sure it gets all the way around past inverted without getting too slow.
>
> Nor do you want to get too fast on the backside of the loop.
> Your Standard Cirrus Vne is only 119 knots indicated at sea level, relatively slow compared to modern sailplanes. Entry speed for a loop in your Standard Cirrus per the flight manual is 97 knots.
>
> Vne in my ASK-21 is 151 knots at sea level. 121 knots at 15,000' MSL. Entry speed for solo loop is 84 knots.
> Check your flight manual to learn the "real" True Air Speed (TAS vs. IAS) at altitude as a sailplane will accelerate quickly nose down around the backside of the loop compared to a relatively draggy airplane. Know your maximum speed for deploying airbrakes / dive brakes.
> Be real smooth on the controls (in any phase of flight) . . . your Cirrus sailplane is not a Pitts Special.
>
> Know that your Va Maneuvering speed is lower when you are flying at a lower weight than max gross.
> That might not seem intuitive but that's why Va speed is not usually marked on your airspeed indicator.
> Va varies with aircraft weight. The flight manual Va, along with other limitations including load factor, is at your maximum allowable gross weight. By the way, "a" is for acceleration. Read up on Va.
>
> Beware of flutter which can destroy an aircraft. Flight control connections, hinges, etc. need to be lubricated and as snug as they were from the factory. Consult your Maintenance Manual for how much control surface looseness or "jiggle" is allowed with someone holding the stick hard/still and then check the proper degrees of up/down or left/right control deflection. That would be on your FAA Type Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS) available at faa.gov
>
> Adjust the airbrake pushrod tension so they do not pop full out when flying fast into the loop.
> Keep your left hand on that blue airbrake handle to hold it in, then be ready to pull it if you get too fast on the backside of the loop.
>
> Get a current Weight & Balance accomplished.
> Install a calibrated G-meter.
> My 1972 Standard Cirrus at Marfa, Texas, is fairly low time but I do not feel the need to loop it as "soaring" is what it does so well. If I want to do acro and not have to take a lot of tows, I get into a Citabria airplane.
>
> My ASK-21 that I bought new is definitely loop capable. For resale value, I purposely imported it as "acro" from the Schleicher factory and it is FAA certificated as "Acrobatic." The factory installed calibrated G-meters with plus and minus red lines (+6.5 and - 4G at Va, not Vne), crotch straps for inverted flight and the structural red rings for your parachute static line. Yes, acro in the ASK-21 is fun. It also soars really well.
>
> I do not consider myself a current acro instructor. My thoughts above are not ground school in acro nor for preparing your sailplane. I strongly recommend you contact a CFIG that is proficient in sailplane acrobatics. (By the way, in Germany, an "Acro" CFI is a separate CFI advanced rating.)
>
> So, do what you like (up high) but my suggestion is to get dual instruction from the 4 time sailplane aerobatic champion Jason Stephens at Arizona Soaring, south of Phoenix. (See his advert on the inside front cover of your SOARING magazine.) Reading a book or my comments is not enough to be proficient.
>
> Jason Stephens is the best and that's who I would get dual instruction from if I decided to get back into sailplane acro.
>
> Burt Compton, CFI airplane & glider / FAA Designated Pilot Examiner
> Marfa Gliders Soaring Center, southwest Texas
> www.flygliders.com

I agree with everything Burt says but would add that there is a meaningful difference between acro in a '21 or Grob and most single seaters. Things get out of hand slower in the 2 seaters. One should be pretty good in deuce before doing in single.
UH

[[email protected]]

"Looping a competition glider makes as much sense as turning the engine off on a Pawnee and trying to soar it."

Wow, too bad no one told Oscar Boesch that before he spent all those years doing aerobatic shows in an ASW-15. Poor guy wasted his life I guess.

[Chris Davison[_3_]]

At 00:57 16 January 2018, wrote:
>Who has done a loop in a standard cirrus? Any comments or hints.
Currently
>getting some acro training with the goal of looping my cirrus.
>


Not sure. On my Std Libelle I just press the 'Loop' button. Seems to work
OK.

[[email protected]]

Again,
ALL gliders are certified to a standard to withstand specified loads.
The standard cirrus is made before JAR 22 standards were published but for most gliders in the last twenty years, they are certified in the JAR 22 Utility standard.
The load limits at Va are +5.3G and -2.65G
JAR 22.3 states that gliders in the Utility category are cleared for spins, lazy eights, chandelles, stall turns, and positive loops.
A properly flown positive loop uses only +3.5Gs.
The plane is not the problem.
The problem is the pilot who does not know how to fly a loop and does not know how to gain control of the aircraft if a manuver fails so that the aircraft is not subjected to loads beyond +5.3G and -2.65G. Also, these are loads that are without twisting loads. A snap roll is out of the question.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 7:57:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Who has done a loop in a standard cirrus? Any comments or hints. Currently getting some acro training with the goal of looping my cirrus.

I owned a Standard Cirrus back in the early 80's and she would loop just fine. Don't pull too hard you will hear a nasty noise from the spoilers flapping.